Speaker 1: All right, everyone, get ready, because today we're diving deep
Speaker 1: into the world of penetration testing.
Speaker 2: Oooh exciting, I know.
Speaker 1: Right, we're using Penetration Testing for Dummies by Robert Schimonsky
Speaker 1: to guide us.
Speaker 2: Great book.
Speaker 1: Yeah it is, and think of this as your crash
Speaker 1: course in cybersecurity defense. Like, we're going to uncover how
Speaker 1: those attackers think, what tricks they have up their sleeves, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and most importantly, how you can actually like build up
Speaker 1: your defenses and keep your data safe.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's not just about reacting to threats, right, it's
Speaker 2: about being proactive anticipating them, really getting into the mindset
Speaker 2: of the enemy.
Speaker 1: Well that sounds scary, it.
Speaker 2: Can be, but it's necessary, I guess.
Speaker 1: So, so where do we even begin with something like this?
Speaker 2: Well, I think a good place to start is with
Speaker 2: the people who are on the front lines of this
Speaker 2: whole cybersecurity battle.
Speaker 1: Okay, you mean, like the penetration testers exactly.
Speaker 2: The pen testers they're like the digital detectives of the
Speaker 2: cybersecurity world.
Speaker 1: Oooh, I like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they use the same techniques and tools as those
Speaker 2: malicious hackers, but they're the good guys exactly. Their goal
Speaker 2: is to find the weaknesses before the bad guys do.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like if you hired someone to
Speaker 1: break into your house to see how secure it really is.
Speaker 1: That's a great analogy, like a security consultant, but way
Speaker 1: more intense for sure.
Speaker 2: But that's the point, right, You want to find those
Speaker 2: vulnerabilities before someone with bad intentions does.
Speaker 1: Makes sense. So the book mentions there are different types
Speaker 1: of these pen testers, all right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a one size fits all kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, So like what are the different flavors of pen testers.
Speaker 2: Well, you've got some organizations that have dedicated in how
Speaker 2: security teams, right, they have people who are experts in
Speaker 2: penetration testing. Then you've got others who might bring in
Speaker 2: outside consultants so.
Speaker 1: Like a fresh perspective.
Speaker 2: Exactly, or maybe they need a specific skill set that
Speaker 2: they don't have in house. And then there's also the
Speaker 2: rise of these crowdsourced platforms.
Speaker 1: Resourced like getting a bunch of people together to test
Speaker 1: your security.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like tapping into this network of ethical hackers,
Speaker 2: all with different backgrounds and expertise, and they put your
Speaker 2: systems to the test. Huh.
Speaker 1: Interesting, So it's like a team effort.
Speaker 2: In a way. Yeah, and each approach, whether it's in
Speaker 2: house consultants or crowdsourcing, has its own strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker 1: So it depends on what the organization needs, right.
Speaker 2: Exactly, their size, their budget, their specific security concerns. All
Speaker 2: of that factors in makes sense.
Speaker 1: I guess it's kind of like the hackers themselves, right,
Speaker 1: They're not all the same.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely not. There's a whole spectrum of hackers out there,
Speaker 2: each with their own motivations and skill levels.
Speaker 1: Okay, so, like, who are we dealing with here? Give
Speaker 1: me the rundown.
Speaker 2: Well, on one end, you've got your script kitties.
Speaker 1: Script kitties, what are those like little kids writing code?
Speaker 2: Hah huh, Not exactly. They're more like amateurs using pre
Speaker 2: built tools and scripts that they find online.
Speaker 1: Oh so they don't really know what they're.
Speaker 2: Doing, not necessarily. They might cause some disruption, but they're
Speaker 2: not usually capable of sophisticated attacks.
Speaker 1: So like more annoying than dangerous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. But then on
Speaker 2: the other end of the spectrum, you have the elite hackers.
Speaker 1: Okay, those sound a lot more intimidating.
Speaker 2: They are. These are the masterminds, the ones who can
Speaker 2: develop their own custom exploits, so.
Speaker 1: Like they're writing their own hacking tools exactly.
Speaker 2: They're incredibly skilled and often very patient and persistent. They
Speaker 2: might spend weeks, months, even years crafting their attacks.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's dedication. I guess you've got to admire their commitment,
Speaker 1: even if their goals are less than noble.
Speaker 2: Right, a little scary but also fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Speaking of less than noble, the book
Speaker 1: mentions this whole white hat, black hat, gray hat thing.
Speaker 1: Can you break that down for me?
Speaker 2: Sure? Think of it like a spectrum of intent. So
Speaker 2: you've got your white hat hackers. They're the ethical ones,
Speaker 2: the good guys like our pen testers.
Speaker 1: Okay, so using their powers for good exactly.
Speaker 2: They're working to protect systems and data. Then you have
Speaker 2: your black hat hackers. Those are the criminals, the ones
Speaker 2: motivated by profit, revenge, or just you know, plain malice.
Speaker 1: The villains of the story.
Speaker 2: Right, they're actively seeking to exploit vulnerabilities for their own
Speaker 2: personal gain.
Speaker 1: And what about the gray hats? Where do they fit in?
Speaker 2: They're a bit more ambiguous. Sometimes they operate in a
Speaker 2: legal and ethical gray area.
Speaker 1: Sounds kind of shady.
Speaker 2: Well, they might uncover vulnerabilities without permission for example.
Speaker 1: Oh so like breaking the rules, but for a good cause.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they might publicly disclose those vulnerabilities to force companies
Speaker 2: to improve their security.
Speaker 1: Huh so like a vigilante hacker. Interesting, but I guess
Speaker 1: understanding all these players is key to building a strong defense, right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you need to know who you're up against and
Speaker 2: what their motivations are.
Speaker 1: Right makes sense. So how about we delve into the
Speaker 1: actual art of hacking.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: The book keeps mentioning this term attack vectors. What exactly
Speaker 1: are those?
Speaker 2: Okay, imagine you're trying to break into, say a heavily
Speaker 2: fortified castle.
Speaker 1: I'm picturing it.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't just charge straight at the.
Speaker 1: Front gate, right, Probably not a good idea.
Speaker 2: You look for weaknesses, alternative entry points, anything that gives
Speaker 2: you an advantage.
Speaker 1: Sneak in the back, maybe find a secret passage exactly.
Speaker 2: And those pathways, those are the attack vectors. They're how
Speaker 2: hackers gain access to systems. It could be a technical
Speaker 2: flaw or.
Speaker 1: Tricking someone into giving up information.
Speaker 2: Exactly, social engineering, like we talked about, it's all about
Speaker 2: exploiting weaknesses, whether they're technical or human.
Speaker 1: So you're saying it's not just about having strong defenses,
Speaker 1: but also understanding how those defenses might be bypassed.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. It's about knowing
Speaker 2: your enemy and how they think.
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. Now. The book gives some pretty
Speaker 1: wild examples of these attack vectors, like social engineering.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, social engineering is fascinating and incredibly effective. It's
Speaker 2: all about exploiting human psychology rather than just technical flaws.
Speaker 1: So like tricking someone into handing over the keys to
Speaker 1: the castle instead of trying to pick the law exactly.
Speaker 2: And the book talks about how attackers can clone websites,
Speaker 2: like fake websites. Yeah, but they look practically identical to
Speaker 2: the real thing, So someone might enter their log in
Speaker 2: credentials thinking they're on a legitimate site.
Speaker 1: And boom, the attacker has their info exactly.
Speaker 2: It prays on trust and it can be incredibly effective.
Speaker 1: That's scary, especially of how good those fake websites can be.
Speaker 1: I've almost fallen for a few myself.
Speaker 2: It happens to the best of us. It's a constant
Speaker 2: reminder to be vigilant.
Speaker 1: Definitely. Yeah. Okay, what about password cracking? That always seems
Speaker 1: like a big threat.
Speaker 2: It is, and unfortunately it can be pretty straightforward if
Speaker 2: people aren't using strong passwords. The book describes how these
Speaker 2: password cracking tools work basically like.
Speaker 1: Trying every combination until they get it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a brute force approach, but it highlights how
Speaker 2: crucial strong unique passwords are for each of your accounts.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I should probably change a few
Speaker 1: of mine after this.
Speaker 2: It's always a good idea. And then, of course there's malware.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, malware. That's always a scary one.
Speaker 2: It is, and the thing with malware is that it's
Speaker 2: constantly evolving. The book was talking about how some modern
Speaker 2: malware is designed to exploit zero day vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: Zero day what's that?
Speaker 2: It means those security holes that haven't even been discovered yet,
Speaker 2: so there's no patch or fix available, So like.
Speaker 1: A secret entrance that no one knows about until it's.
Speaker 2: Too late exactly makes it incredibly difficult to detect because.
Speaker 1: Like your antivirus software isn't looking for it.
Speaker 2: Right, because it's looking for known threats, not these unknown dangers.
Speaker 2: It's a constant arms race between the security researchers and
Speaker 2: the malware developers.
Speaker 1: So what can you even do to protect yourself?
Speaker 2: Well, it's all about having a layered defense and staying
Speaker 2: informed about the latest threats. But that's something we can
Speaker 2: dive into more in the next part of our deep dive.
Speaker 1: All right, Cliffhanger, I guess everyone will have to tune
Speaker 1: in next time to learn more about how to actually
Speaker 1: defend against all this scary stuff.
Speaker 2: Exactly, we'll talk about building your digital fortress and some
Speaker 2: strategies to keep those attackers bay.
Speaker 1: Sounds good, See y'all next time.
Speaker 2: See you then, So, picking up where we left off,
Speaker 2: one of the big things the book stresses is this
Speaker 2: idea of defense and depth.
Speaker 1: Defense and depth. Okay, I'm intrigued. Lay it on me.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know how we were talking about those
Speaker 2: layered castle defenses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the moats and the walls and all that.
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's not enough to just have one strong point,
Speaker 2: ya I have backup. You need multiple layers of security,
Speaker 2: each one backing up the others.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that makes sense, But wouldn't that be super
Speaker 1: complex and expensive to set up?
Speaker 2: Not necessarily it can be. But the book actually offers
Speaker 2: some good advice for companies, especially those with tighter budgets.
Speaker 1: Oh that's good practical tips.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they suggest starting with a vulnerability assessment.
Speaker 1: Vulnerability assessment so like a scan for weak points.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like a preliminary check to identify potential problems
Speaker 2: without the full cost of a penetration test.
Speaker 1: Okay, I could see how that would be helpful. But
Speaker 1: wouldn't that just give you a surface level view.
Speaker 2: You're right, it's not a deep dive, but it helps
Speaker 2: you prioritize.
Speaker 1: You know, prioritize. Okay, so you find the most critical
Speaker 1: stuff and focus on those first.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like a doctor's check up. It might not
Speaker 2: catch everything, but it can highlight areas that need more attention.
Speaker 1: I like that analogy. So start with the assessment, then
Speaker 1: dig deeper where you.
Speaker 2: Need to precisely, and then you can allocate your resources
Speaker 2: more effectively.
Speaker 1: Smart. Okay, Well, let's get back to those attack factors
Speaker 1: for a sec. The book has some pretty crazy real
Speaker 1: world example Oh yeah, some of.
Speaker 2: Them are wild. The one that stuck with me it
Speaker 2: was about physical security breaches physical.
Speaker 1: Wait, I thought we were talking about digital stuff.
Speaker 2: We are, But the book makes this point that even
Speaker 2: something as simple as dumpster diving can be a gold
Speaker 2: mine for attackers.
Speaker 1: Dumpster diving Seriously, that sounds more like something out of
Speaker 1: us by.
Speaker 2: Movie, I know, right, yeah, but you'd be surprised what
Speaker 2: people throw away documents with passwords, account numbers, even internal
Speaker 2: network diagram.
Speaker 1: Well that's bad. So it's like they're literally digging through
Speaker 1: the trash.
Speaker 2: For clues, exactly. It highlights this often o relooked aspect
Speaker 2: of security.
Speaker 1: You know that security is about more than just firewalls
Speaker 1: and passwords.
Speaker 2: Right, It's also about physical security, employee awareness, thinking about
Speaker 2: all those potential weak points.
Speaker 1: Okay, so shred everything basically.
Speaker 2: Pretty much, and be mindful of what you're discussing in
Speaker 2: public too. The book also talks about shoulder surfing.
Speaker 1: Shoulder surfing, what's that like, literally looking over someone's shoulder.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's exactly it. Imagine someone peeking while you're typing
Speaker 2: in your password or looking at sensitive data.
Speaker 1: Oh that's creepy. But wouldn't you notice someone doing that?
Speaker 2: You'd think so, right, But it can be surprisingly effective,
Speaker 2: especially in crowded places or open offices.
Speaker 1: Okay, you've officially made me paranoid. Maybe I need one
Speaker 1: of those Privacy screens form my laptop.
Speaker 2: Not a bad idea. It's amazing how these simple, low
Speaker 2: tech tactics can still be so effective.
Speaker 1: Right. It's like we're so focused on the fancy digital
Speaker 1: threats that we forget about the basics exactly.
Speaker 2: But let's talk about some of those more technical attacks. Now.
Speaker 2: The book goes into things denial of service attacks.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, d DIIC attacks. Those sound pretty scary.
Speaker 2: They can be. Imagine a website or server getting flooded
Speaker 2: with so much traffic that it just crashes, like a
Speaker 2: digital traffic jat perfect analogy. And nowadays these attacks can
Speaker 2: be massive using a botnets.
Speaker 1: Bot nets those are like networks of infected computers, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially thousands of devices all coordinated to bombard to target.
Speaker 2: Really hard to defend against.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's like a digital army, it kind of is.
Speaker 2: The book really got me thinking about the sheer scale
Speaker 2: of these attacks.
Speaker 1: Definitely a wake up call. Okay, what about those buffer
Speaker 1: overflow attacks? Those always sounded super complicated to me.
Speaker 2: They are complex, but the book breaks it down pretty well.
Speaker 2: It's basically exploiting weaknesses in a program's code code.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is where I start to get lost.
Speaker 2: Think of it like this. You're trying to stuff too
Speaker 2: much data into a container, right again, I'm picturing it.
Speaker 2: Eventually it fober flows and that messes up the surrounding
Speaker 2: data in a computer system that can cause crashes or
Speaker 2: unpredictable behavior.
Speaker 1: So you're like overloading the system's memory to make it.
Speaker 2: Vulnerable exactly, and that's how an attacker can inject malicious
Speaker 2: code or even take control of the system.
Speaker 1: Yikes, Okay, So deta as attacks, buffer overflows, and of
Speaker 1: course we can't forget about malware.
Speaker 2: Oh, malware. It's like a whole universe of digital.
Speaker 1: Threats, viruses, worms, trojan horses. It's like a bad zoo haha.
Speaker 2: Right, and the book goes into detail about all the
Speaker 2: different types, how they work, and the damage they can do.
Speaker 1: So what's the best way to protect yourself against all
Speaker 1: these threats? It's got to be more than just hoping
Speaker 1: for the best, right.
Speaker 2: Definitely, not like we talked about before. It's about having
Speaker 2: a layered defense firewalls, intrusion detection systems, strong passwords, and
Speaker 2: most importantly, security awareness training.
Speaker 1: So educating people about the risks and how to spot
Speaker 1: those phishing emails and stuff exactly.
Speaker 2: Because at the end of the day, people are often
Speaker 2: the weakest link.
Speaker 1: Makes sense, But what about those attacks that are like
Speaker 1: specifically targeted at certain people spearfishing I think it's.
Speaker 2: Called, Oh, spearfishing is nasty. Those are the ones that
Speaker 2: are tailored to specific individuals or organizations.
Speaker 1: So like, instead of a generic spam email, it's something
Speaker 1: that looks like it's from someone.
Speaker 2: You know exactly, and they use personal information stuff they
Speaker 2: find on social media or other sources to make it
Speaker 2: look really convincing, so.
Speaker 1: You're more likely to click on a malicious link or
Speaker 1: open an infected attachments exactly.
Speaker 2: It's like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Speaker 1: Not cool. So how do you even protect yourself against that?
Speaker 1: It seems like it could happen to anyone.
Speaker 2: It could, but awareness is key. Being skeptical of unexpected emails,
Speaker 2: double checking the sender's address, hovering over links before you
Speaker 2: click them.
Speaker 1: Okay, So basically trust no one, well not quite, but
Speaker 1: definitely be cautious and use your common sense.
Speaker 2: If something seems off, it probably.
Speaker 1: Is good advice. So we've talked about all these attack vectors,
Speaker 1: and it seems like there's a lot to be worried about.
Speaker 2: There is. But that's why penetration testing is so important.
Speaker 1: Right, because it helps you find those weaknesses before the
Speaker 1: bad guys do.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like a proactive approach to security. You're not
Speaker 2: just waiting for something bad to happen, you're actively trying
Speaker 2: to prevent.
Speaker 1: It makes sense. It's like an ounce of prevention is
Speaker 1: worth a pound of cure.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. And by doing these penetration tests, you can
Speaker 2: identify the gaps in your defenses, fix them, and make
Speaker 2: it much harder for those attackers to get in.
Speaker 1: So you're basically strengthening your digital fortress.
Speaker 2: That's the goal, making it as impenetrable as possible.
Speaker 1: All right, I like it. So we've talked about the
Speaker 1: bad guys, the attacks, the defenses, but what about the
Speaker 1: good guys, those penetration testers. What makes them tick? What
Speaker 1: kind of skills do they need to do this job?
Speaker 2: Well, it's definitely a unique blend of technical expertise and
Speaker 2: honestly a certain kind of mindset.
Speaker 1: Okay, so brains and a bit of an attitude.
Speaker 2: Uh huh, Yeah, you could say that. On the technical side,
Speaker 2: they need to have a deep understanding of networking, operating
Speaker 2: system security, concepts.
Speaker 1: So they need to know how the Internet works inside.
Speaker 2: And out pretty much, and they need to be comfortable
Speaker 2: with code, with navigating those complex digital landscapes.
Speaker 1: It sounds like they need to be part detective, part engineer,
Speaker 1: and part hacker all rolled into one.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. They have to
Speaker 2: be able to think like an attacker, anticipate their moves,
Speaker 2: and find those hidden vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1: So they need to be able to see the matrix basically.
Speaker 2: Huh huh kind of. But it's not just about the
Speaker 2: technical skills. They also need strong problem solving abilities, relentless curiosity,
Speaker 2: and a healthy dose of skepticism.
Speaker 1: So they can't just take things at face value. They
Speaker 1: need to dig deeper, question everything.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and that's where the mindset comes in. They need
Speaker 2: to be able to think outside the box, to challenge
Speaker 2: assumptions and be constantly pushing the boundaries.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a pretty demanding job. And they need
Speaker 1: to be ethical too, right, I mean they're being given
Speaker 1: access to all this sensitive information.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, ethical considerations are paramount in this field. It's about
Speaker 2: using those powerful skills for good.
Speaker 1: Right, So no going rogue and using their knowledge for evil.
Speaker 2: Exactly. They have to be trustworthy, discrete, committed to using
Speaker 2: their knowledge to actually strengthen security, not exploit it.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of responsibility. Yeah, like being entrusted with
Speaker 1: the keys to the kingdom.
Speaker 2: That's a good way to put it. They're the guardians
Speaker 2: of the digital realm.
Speaker 1: Okay. So let's say a company decides, all right, we
Speaker 1: need to do this penetration testing thing. What's the process, like,
Speaker 1: how does it actually work?
Speaker 2: The book breaks it down into several stages, and the
Speaker 2: first one is planning and scoping.
Speaker 1: Planning and scoping, so figuring out what they're actually going
Speaker 1: to test, right.
Speaker 2: The pen testers and the client organization. They work together
Speaker 2: to define the goals, the boundaries, what systems are in scope.
Speaker 1: So it's like drawing up a battle plan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, making sure everyone is on the same page
Speaker 2: and understands the rules of engagement.
Speaker 1: Okay, and then what Once the plan is in.
Speaker 2: Place, then comes the reconnaissance phase. This is where the
Speaker 2: pen testers gather as much information as they can about
Speaker 2: the target.
Speaker 1: Oh so like doing their homework.
Speaker 2: Right yep, scouring the internet for public information, scanning networks,
Speaker 2: maybe even using some social engineering tactics to gather intel, so.
Speaker 1: Like a digital detective building a profile.
Speaker 2: That's a great analogy. They're looking for any clues that
Speaker 2: might help them gain unauthorized access.
Speaker 1: So they've done their research, identified the target. Then what's
Speaker 1: next the actual attack?
Speaker 2: You got it. The next phase is exploitation, and this
Speaker 2: is where the real action happens.
Speaker 1: Okay, time to put those skills to the test exactly.
Speaker 2: The pen testers try to exploit those vulnerabilities they've found
Speaker 2: using a whole range of tools and techniques, so.
Speaker 1: Like cracking passwords, finding software bugs, maybe even tricking employees
Speaker 1: into giving them access.
Speaker 2: All of the above. They're essentially putting on their black
Speaker 2: hats for a while, thinking and acting like a real attacker.
Speaker 1: Wo wow, that's intense, But it's all controls right, Like,
Speaker 1: they're not actually going to steal data or.
Speaker 2: Anything, right, it's all ethical and within the agreed upon scope.
Speaker 2: The goal is to see how far they can get
Speaker 2: to expose those weaknesses before a real attacker does.
Speaker 1: Makes sense, So they've done their best to break in,
Speaker 1: Now what.
Speaker 2: Well, the next stage is called post exploitation. This is
Speaker 2: where they assess the impact of the.
Speaker 1: Breach, So like, what could they have done if they
Speaker 1: were a real attacker.
Speaker 2: Exactly what data could they have accessed, what systems could
Speaker 2: they have controlled? What damage could they have caused?
Speaker 1: WHOA, that's a sobering thought. It's like, even if you
Speaker 1: managed to stop the initial attack, you still need to
Speaker 1: know what the potential fallout could be exactly.
Speaker 2: And that's why this post exploitation phase is so important.
Speaker 2: It helps the organization understand the real risks and take
Speaker 2: steps to mitigate them.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they've done the attack, assess the damage. Time
Speaker 1: for the report card, right right.
Speaker 2: The final stage is reporting. The pen testers document everything
Speaker 2: they found, the vulnerabilities, how they exploited them, and most importantly,
Speaker 2: recommendations for fixing those issues.
Speaker 1: So it's like, here's what we found, here's how to
Speaker 1: make things better exactly.
Speaker 2: And a good penetration test report should be clear, concise, actionable.
Speaker 2: It gives the organization a roadmap for improving their security.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've walked through the whole process. Sounds pretty thorough.
Speaker 1: But what about the tools. The book mentions a few
Speaker 1: like Collie Linux. What is that exactly?
Speaker 2: Klie Linux is a specialized operating system that's designed specifically
Speaker 2: for penetration testing and security auditing, so.
Speaker 1: Like a hacker's toolkit, all in one backage pretty much.
Speaker 2: It comes with hundreds of tools for all sorts of
Speaker 2: tasks like scanning networks, finding vulnerabilities, exploiting weaknesses.
Speaker 1: Sounds powerful, it's like super expensive or something.
Speaker 2: No, it's actually free and open source, and that's part
Speaker 2: of what makes it so popular. It's accessible to anyone
Speaker 2: who wants to learn about penetration testing.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty cool. And what about those other tools?
Speaker 1: The book mentions nessus and wireshark.
Speaker 2: Right, So, nessus is a vulnerability scanner. It's used to
Speaker 2: scan networks and systems for known vulnerabilities, kind of like
Speaker 2: a security checkup.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it helps you find the weak spots that
Speaker 1: need patching exactly.
Speaker 2: And wireshark is a network protocol analyzer. It captures and
Speaker 2: analyzes network traffic.
Speaker 1: Network traffic so like all the data that's flowing back
Speaker 1: and forth between computers.
Speaker 2: Yep, exactly, and by analyzing that traffic, you can see
Speaker 2: how attacks work, identify suspicious activity, and get a better
Speaker 2: understanding of what's happening on your network.
Speaker 1: So it's like a microscope for your network.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it, and these are
Speaker 2: just a few examples. Of course, there are tons of
Speaker 2: tools out there and the ones that pen testers use
Speaker 2: will vary depending on the specific engagement.
Speaker 1: Makes sense, So it's a constantly evolving field, new tools,
Speaker 1: new techniques all the time.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, penetration testers have to stay up to date on
Speaker 2: all the latest trends and technologies. It's a constant learning process.
Speaker 1: Because the bad guys are always coming up with new tricks,
Speaker 1: right yep.
Speaker 2: It's a constant arms race, and that's why penetration testing
Speaker 2: is so crucial. It helps you stay one step ahead
Speaker 2: to find and fix those vulnerabilities before the attackers can
Speaker 2: exploit them.
Speaker 1: All right, so we've talked tools and techniques, but what
Speaker 1: about the mental game. What kind of mindset do you
Speaker 1: need to be a successful penetration tester.
Speaker 2: Well, first and foremost, you have to be able to
Speaker 2: think like an attacker. You have to put yourself in
Speaker 2: their shoes, see the world through their eyes.
Speaker 1: So like embrace your inner villain.
Speaker 2: Hah in a way. Yeah. You have to understand their motivations,
Speaker 2: their tactics, their methods, and you have to be constantly
Speaker 2: looking for weaknesses for those exploitable gaps.
Speaker 1: So a healthy dose of paranoid is probably a good thing.
Speaker 2: Definitely, you can't just assume everything is secure. You have
Speaker 2: to be skeptical, question everything, and always be on the
Speaker 2: lookout for potential threats.
Speaker 1: It sounds like it takes a certain type of personality.
Speaker 1: Not everyone is cut out for this kind of work.
Speaker 2: That's true. You need to be passionate about security, driven
Speaker 2: by this desire to protect systems and data, and you
Speaker 2: need to have that relentless curiosity, always wanting to learn more,
Speaker 2: to dig deeper.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a calling. You know. These guys are
Speaker 1: like the digital guardians, protecting us from the bad guy.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. And their work
Speaker 2: is so important. They're the ones who are on the
Speaker 2: front lines of this cyber battle, working tirelessly to keep
Speaker 2: us safe.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've covered a lot of ground here, but
Speaker 1: I'm curious, what are some of the biggest misconceptions about
Speaker 1: penetration testing that you've encountered, Like, what do people get
Speaker 1: wrong about this whole thing.
Speaker 2: One of the biggest ones is that it's only for
Speaker 2: large organizations, you know, those with tons of money to
Speaker 2: throw around.
Speaker 1: Right, because smaller companies think, oh, we're not a target.
Speaker 1: No one's going to bother with us, exactly.
Speaker 2: But the reality is that organizations of all sizes can
Speaker 2: benefit from penetration testing. Even small businesses are vulnerable to attacks,
Speaker 2: and often they're easier targets because they might have weaker security.
Speaker 1: So it's like the attackers are going for the low
Speaker 1: hanging fruit, exactly.
Speaker 2: And the cost of a penetration test is often far
Speaker 2: less than the cost of dealing with the data breach
Speaker 2: or successful attack, right.
Speaker 1: It's about prevention rather than cure, exactly.
Speaker 2: And even if you're a small business, you still have
Speaker 2: valuevaluable data that needs to be protected customer information, financial records,
Speaker 2: intellectual property.
Speaker 1: So it's not just about the sides of your company.
Speaker 1: It's about the value of the information you're.
Speaker 2: Protecting, precisely. And another common misconception is that penetration testing
Speaker 2: is a one time.
Speaker 1: Event, so like you get it done once and you're
Speaker 1: good to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people think that, but the reality
Speaker 2: is that cybersecurity is a continuous process. The threat landscape
Speaker 2: is constantly changing. New vulnerabilities are being discovered all the time, so.
Speaker 1: It's like you can't just rest on your laurels you
Speaker 1: have to constantly be adapting and improving your defenses exactly.
Speaker 2: It's like getting your car serviced regularly. You don't just
Speaker 2: do it once and then never worry about.
Speaker 1: It again, right, You got to keep up with the.
Speaker 2: Maintenance exactly, And the same goes for cybersecurity. Regular penetration
Speaker 2: tests help you make sure your defenses are up to
Speaker 2: date and that you're protected against the latest threats.
Speaker 1: Okay, so regular testing is key, But what about those
Speaker 1: organizations that have never done a penetration test before? Any
Speaker 1: advice for them?
Speaker 2: Definitely? The most important thing is to do your research
Speaker 2: and find a reputable penetration testing firm. Look for a
Speaker 2: company with a proven track record, certified professionals, and a
Speaker 2: good understanding of your industry.
Speaker 1: So like finding a good doctor basically.
Speaker 2: Exactly, someone you trust and feel comfortable with. And once
Speaker 2: you found a firm, work with them to develop a
Speaker 2: clear scope of work outlining the goals and objectives of.
Speaker 1: The test so everyone knows what's happening and what to expect. Right.
Speaker 2: And remember, the goal is not to find fault or
Speaker 2: point fingers. It's about working together to identify and address
Speaker 2: those vulnerabilities to make the organization more secure.
Speaker 1: It's a team effort, basically.
Speaker 2: Exactly, the pen testers and the organization working together to
Speaker 2: improve security.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm really starting to see the value in this
Speaker 1: whole penetration testing thing. Yes, it's not just about breaking
Speaker 1: into systems. It's about understanding the attacker's mindset, identifying weaknesses,
Speaker 1: and working together to build a stronger, more resilient defense.
Speaker 2: That's a great summary, and I hope this conversation has
Speaker 2: helped to demystify penetration testing and highlight its importance in
Speaker 2: today's digital world.
Speaker 1: It definitely has. Well. Before we wrap up, I want
Speaker 1: to circle back to the book Penetration Testing for Dummies
Speaker 1: by Robert Schamansky. Is there anything else that really stood
Speaker 1: out to you, anything that you found particularly insightful or surprising.
Speaker 2: One thing that I found really interesting was the discussion
Speaker 2: of the psychology of security.
Speaker 1: The psychology of security, Okay, I'm curious. Tell me more.
Speaker 2: Well, the book emphasizes how important it is to understand
Speaker 2: human behavior. You know, how our own minds can be
Speaker 2: exploited by attackers.
Speaker 1: We talked about social engineering earlier, but I guess there
Speaker 1: are other ways that attackers can play on our weaknesses.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. The book talks about things like cognitive biases,
Speaker 2: those mental shortcuts that our brains take, which can lead
Speaker 2: to bad decisions and emotional manipulation, you know, playing on
Speaker 2: our fears or anxieties to trick us into doing things
Speaker 2: we shouldn't.
Speaker 1: So it's like the attackers are hacking our minds as
Speaker 1: much as they're hacking our computers.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. And that's why
Speaker 2: it's so important to be aware of these psychological tactics
Speaker 2: to strengthen our mental defenses along with our technical ones, right, because.
Speaker 1: If you're not careful, you could be tricked into clicking
Speaker 1: on a malicious link or giving away your password without
Speaker 1: even realizing it exactly.
Speaker 2: And the book provides some good tips for strengthening your
Speaker 2: mental defenses, things like being aware of your own biases,
Speaker 2: being skeptical of information that seems too good to be true,
Speaker 2: and taking your time to think things through before you act.
Speaker 1: So it's like, slow down, think before you.
Speaker 2: Click, exactly. Don't let those emotions get the best of you.
Speaker 1: Okay, So it's not just about having strong firewalls and
Speaker 1: antivirus software, it's also about having a strong mental firewall.
Speaker 2: I love that analogy, and it's a good reminder that
Speaker 2: cybersecurity is about more than just technology. It's about people, processes,
Speaker 2: and culture. It's about creating a security conscious environment where
Speaker 2: everyone understands the risks and takes responsibility for protecting themselves
Speaker 2: and their data.
Speaker 1: Right. It's a team effort. We all have a role
Speaker 1: to play in keeping ourselves and our organization.
Speaker 2: Safe exactly, and that's why this book is so valuable.
Speaker 2: It provides a comprehensive overview of penetration testing, but it
Speaker 2: also goes beyond that to explore the human element of
Speaker 2: security and how we can all be more resilient in
Speaker 2: the face of these ever evolving threats.
Speaker 1: Okay, this has been an incredible conversation. I feel like
Speaker 1: I've learned so much about penetration testing and really about
Speaker 1: the whole cybersecurity landscape.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear that, and remember the best way
Speaker 2: to protect yourself is to stay informed, be vigilant, and
Speaker 2: never stop learning.
Speaker 1: Great advice and to our listeners, we hope this deep
Speaker 1: dive has given you a better understanding of the importance
Speaker 1: of penetration testing and the role it plays in protecting
Speaker 1: our digital world.
Speaker 2: Definitely, stay curious, stay informed, and stay safe out there.
Speaker 1: And on that note, we'll wrap up this episode of
Speaker 1: The Deep Dive. Big thanks to our expert for sharing
Speaker 1: their insights and to Penetration Testing for Dummies by Robert
Speaker 1: Schumansky for providing such a comprehensive guide to this fascinating field.
Speaker 2: It was my pleasure, always happy to talk about cybersecurity and.
Speaker 1: To our listeners, thanks for joining us. Until next time,
Speaker 1: Keep exploring, keep learning, and keep those digital defenses strong.
Speaker 1: It's amazing how much we've covered and we just talked
Speaker 1: about one book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot to unpack.
Speaker 1: It really shows you how deep this whole world of
Speaker 1: pen testing goes.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, we just scratch the surface.
Speaker 1: But that's what makes it so interesting, right, It's always changing,
Speaker 1: always evolving, just like the threats it's trying to counter.
Speaker 2: Exactly, you got to stand your.
Speaker 1: Toes speaking of those evolving threats. The book ends on
Speaker 1: this note that's.
Speaker 2: Kind of well, kind of what.
Speaker 1: Intriguing but also a little creepy.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: It talks about how the attack surface is expanding beyond
Speaker 1: you know, just the typical computers and servers.
Speaker 2: Right, it's not just your laptop or your phone anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like we tend to focus on those the obvious targets.
Speaker 2: They're a low hanging fruit in a way.
Speaker 1: But the book is saying that, like anything connected to
Speaker 1: a network is a potential entry point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything, So like.
Speaker 1: All those smart devices we have.
Speaker 2: Now exactly security can thermostats, even appliances.
Speaker 1: Hold on, you're telling me my refrigerator could be hacked.
Speaker 2: It's not as crazy as it sounds. If it's connected
Speaker 2: to the Internet, there's a possibility.
Speaker 1: That's both hilarious and terrifying at the same time.
Speaker 2: Right, it's a whole new world of threats that we
Speaker 2: have to consider now.
Speaker 1: So it's like not just defending the castle walls anywhere.
Speaker 1: You got to think about underground tunnels and stuff.
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's the challenge with pen testing, anticipating those unconventional
Speaker 2: attack vectors, the things most people wouldn't even think of.
Speaker 1: It's like plain chess, but your opponent can make up
Speaker 1: new moves.
Speaker 2: Huh. That's a good way to put it, And that's
Speaker 2: why pen testing is so valuable. It forces you to
Speaker 2: think outside the box, to consider all those what if scenarios, So.
Speaker 1: You're basically embracing the fact that your system is vulnerable
Speaker 1: in some way and then figuring out how to minimize
Speaker 1: that risk.
Speaker 2: Right, it's not about achieving perfect security because that's probably impossible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's always going to be some new threat, some new.
Speaker 2: Vulnerability exactly, So it's about managing that risk, staying ahead
Speaker 2: of the curve as much as you can.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, i'd say our deep dive today has been
Speaker 1: a real eye opener.
Speaker 2: I agree, it's been a good one.
Speaker 1: A huge thank you to Penetration Testing for Dummies by
Speaker 1: Robert Schamansky for giving us such a great overview of
Speaker 1: all this.
Speaker 2: It's a really good resource for sure, And.
Speaker 1: To all of you listening out there, we hope this
Speaker 1: deep dive has given you some food for thoughts, some
Speaker 1: things to consider when it comes to your own cybersecurity.
Speaker 2: Definitely, knowledge is power, right, absolutely, so stay curious, stay informed,
Speaker 2: and most importantly, stay secure out there until next time.