WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:33.359 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:40.560 Good Evening. 8 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:46.000 Babyfaced teen Giovanni Mercedo is desperate to find belonging in 9 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:51.960 one of ELA's most predatory gangs, the Colombia Little Psychos, 10 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.600 so desperate that he agrees to kill an undocumented Mexican 11 00:00:55.679 --> 00:01:01.799 street vendor. The vendor, Francisco Clemente, had been refusing to 12 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:07.280 give into the gang's shakedown demands, but Giovanni botches the hit, 13 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:13.680 accidentally killing a newborn instead. The overlords who rule the 14 00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:17.079 Little Psychos from a supermax prison one thousand miles away 15 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:22.079 must be placated, and Giovanni is lured across the border, 16 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:27.120 where in turn the gang botches his killing, and so incredibly, 17 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:31.480 Giovanni rises from the dead, determined to both seek redemption 18 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:35.599 for his unforgivable crime and take down the gang who 19 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.840 drove him to do it. With the rent collectors Jesse 20 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:43.959 Katz has built a teeth clenching and breathless narrative that 21 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:48.640 explicates the difficult and proud lives of undocumented black market 22 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:52.920 workers who are being extorted by the gangs and fined 23 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:57.519 by the City of LA in other words, exploited by 24 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.840 two sets of rent collectors. The book that we're featuring 25 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:07.799 this evening is The Rent Collectors, Exploitation, Murder and Redemption 26 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:13.919 in Immigrant LA with my special guest, journalist and author 27 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.759 Jesse Katz. Welcome to the program, Man, Thank you very 28 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.560 much for this interview, Jesse Katz. 29 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.800 I'm excited to talk about The Rent Collectors with you. Dan. 30 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:29.919 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book, 31 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:34.800 The Rent Collectors. Tell us just briefly the origins of 32 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:37.879 this book project, How you came to be and wanted 33 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:40.800 to be the author of The Rent Collectors. 34 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.039 Well, there's probably two answers to that. One begins maybe 35 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:48.280 forty years ago, when I first came to LA as 36 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:51.879 a young reporter working for the La Times and Leader 37 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:56.199 LA magazine and finding that I was really drawn to 38 00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:05.879 stories about overlooked, misperceived, stigmatized parts of Los Angeles and 39 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:10.719 finding stories that allowed me to explore those communities and 40 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:17.319 illuminate their experiences and their struggles, and try to find 41 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:23.599 language that humanized people facing great adversity. In the early nineties, 42 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:26.080 I was the gang reporter for the La Times, which 43 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:29.560 was a particularly crazy time to be a gang reporter, 44 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.000 but I practiced kind of those same principles then. And 45 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:39.879 to fast forward in twenty and eleven, I moved into 46 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:44.080 the MacArthur Park community, which is where this book is centered, 47 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.159 pretty much in the heart of Los Angeles. And although 48 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:51.319 the crime that's at the center of this book had 49 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:54.680 already occurred a couple of years earlier, the aftermath was 50 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:59.479 still playing out in the courts, and the conditions that 51 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:04.840 led to the crime. This whole ecosystem of gangs and 52 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:11.240 drugs and street vendors and police and politics was right 53 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:14.960 outside my window, and so it was almost impossible to ignore. 54 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:20.439 And I just became very curious, obsessed even with the 55 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:25.519 story of MacArthur Park as a community and how this 56 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.439 horrendous crime grew out of those conditions. 57 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:36.720 You write initially about the Columbia Little Psychos twenty twelve 58 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:40.879 Rico trial that had alerted you to the story of 59 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:44.959 Giovanni Mesito, if that's the pronunciation. But you did not 60 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:50.600 make contact. You said you dithered over making contact with Giovanni, 61 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:52.680 but a colleague urged you. 62 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:54.000 To do so. 63 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:57.600 Just tell us about this Rico trial before we get 64 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:04.439 into this extraordinary story Giovanni Mesito's personal story as well. 65 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:07.560 Yeah, so the gang at the heart of this tale 66 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:16.680 is an unusually well organized, highly sophisticated, hierarchical predatory gang. 67 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:20.399 It's a click of the Eighteenth Street Gang, which has 68 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:26.040 tens of thousands of members in southern California and many beyond. 69 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.639 And even though I tend to think of most gangs 70 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:37.800 as participating in disorganized crime, kind of random opportunistic things, 71 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:42.439 the Columbia little psychos where they were just they extracted 72 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.480 everything they could from the community, and so they're they're 73 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:48.160 great kind of innovation. I mean, it's an old it's 74 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:51.600 an old technique, but it was applied in somewhat new ways. 75 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:58.560 Was to extort everybody in this dense immigrant, largely undocumented 76 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:03.040 community in charge them, you know, quote unquote rent for 77 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:05.800 the right to be out on the streets or the sidewalks. 78 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:10.519 And so they would the gang wouldn't actually sell drugs itself. 79 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:15.360 They would recruit drug dealers to be out on the corner, 80 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:18.680 and they would charge those people rent to be out there. 81 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:20.639 Every day. It could be one hundred, one hundred and 82 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:23.319 fifty dollars a day for the right to sell drugs 83 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:26.360 on that street corner. There were, you know, anyone else 84 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:31.160 involved in that sort of underground or illicit or gray economy, 85 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:36.560 whether it was you know, people selling fake id's or 86 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:43.519 people involved in you know, gypsy cabs or bootleg telephones, 87 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.839 or gamblers or sex workers or whatever it may have been. 88 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:51.480 Everyone was paying this fee to be out and about, 89 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:55.800 and at a certain point that extended to street vendors, 90 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.439 the mom and pop entrepreneurs who were out on our 91 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:05.639 sidewalks selling you know, tostadas or papoosas, or they're buying 92 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.480 you know, batteries or diapers in bulk from a discount 93 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:14.800 store and selling the piecemeal, and those people were also 94 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:19.639 being charged rent. And this this was a kind of 95 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:24.120 a nefarious conspiracy that went on for years and years, 96 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:28.120 and they had been targeted once by the FBI in 97 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:30.399 the early two thousands, and that led to a lot 98 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:33.399 of arrests and takedown of a lot of you know, 99 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:39.079 bad characters. But this gang is super resilient, and those 100 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:44.639 openings in the hierarchy were quickly refilled, and the FBI 101 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.920 went after them again. And so the particular crime that 102 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:52.720 we'll talk about here in a second actually occurred against 103 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.639 the backdrop of a two and a half year FBI 104 00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:00.560 investigation into the Columbia Little Psychos that was designed to 105 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.279 dismantle the gang. That was what twelve thirteen years ago. 106 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.920 I can assure you that the Columbia Psychos are still around, 107 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:12.800 still charging rent, still doing what they've always done. 108 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:18.879 Tell us about Giovanni Mescito and his mother, Rena, and 109 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:22.279 what happened to his original father and his stepfather, Juan. 110 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.120 Just tell us about their life and their journey to 111 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:27.199 Los Angeles. 112 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.920 Yeah, like a lot of kids drawn to gangs, you know, 113 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:38.039 Giovanni lived in a very tumultuous household. In a lot 114 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:42.360 of ways, the gang represented a more stable social institution, 115 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.440 a more purposeful social institution than he had under his 116 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.600 own roof. I do think that there's a much larger 117 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.519 context for understanding Giovanni and his crime. I think you 118 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.000 have to look at us foreign policy. I think you 119 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:01.559 have to look at a broken immigrant system. You have 120 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:05.000 to look at schools, you have to look at municipal 121 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:10.679 codes and all these other things that combine with I 122 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:16.360 think an inherited trauma from his parents' lives that Giovanni 123 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:20.559 grew up with. His mom was from El Salvador. She 124 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:23.480 escaped the Civil War when she was eight or nine 125 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.919 years old. She was smuggled into the US in the 126 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:30.320 trunk of a car. And I just think of that moment, 127 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:34.240 you know, being a little girl. Separate the politics of it, Separate, 128 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.840 you know, whatever your views might be on immigration, And 129 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:40.919 think about a little girl who is fleeing a war 130 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:43.759 torn country and has to get into the back of 131 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:48.279 a stranger's car to enter her new life. That gives 132 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:52.159 me anxiety just talking about it. His dad was his 133 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:58.519 biological father was from Mexico, and he contracted AIDS very 134 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:02.720 early on in the epidelm and died when Giovanni was 135 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.960 a year and a half old. His stepfather, who came 136 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:10.480 into his life very early, really tried to be a 137 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:15.799 father figure, but he was a bad drinker, and there 138 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:20.559 was domestic violence in the home. There were mental health issues, 139 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:24.759 There was extreme poverty, There was all the stuff that 140 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:27.679 you know, anyone who's ever worked with gangs, whether you're 141 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:30.399 in the criminal justice system or the school system or 142 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:34.159 a counselor, you understand that these are the kids that 143 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:38.519 are absolutely at risk for being drawn to the streets. 144 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:42.039 And I think Giovanni, you know, at a young age, 145 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:45.279 you know, by age fifteen or so, just felt that 146 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:50.240 his home was chaos. He was angry about things that 147 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.960 he didn't really understand why he was angry about. And 148 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:59.480 in this gang, he saw identity, he saw a purpose, 149 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:04.480 he saw belonging, and ultimately, I mean this is going 150 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.120 to sound you know, a little trite, maybe, but he 151 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.399 saw love. He wanted to be loved, and he definitely 152 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.720 wanted to be loved by these older, savvier, more powerful 153 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.639 men who were running the gang in the absence of 154 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:23.799 a strong male figure under his own roof. 155 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:29.879 In school, he had a counselor that noted that he 156 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:34.159 was in trouble and noted his background at home, and 157 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.399 also his mother recognized that there was a threat of 158 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.120 him joining a gang. So what did people try to 159 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:44.559 do to intervene in the direction that it seemed that 160 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.519 Giovanni was heading him too? 161 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:49.519 You know, I think lots of people saw the warning signs. 162 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:52.279 You're right, there was a school counselor who visited and 163 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:56.120 the home and talked to his mom and sort of 164 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:01.559 saw her desperation. There was a gang officer from the 165 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:06.240 LAPD who who tried to intervene and would sometimes pick 166 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.039 Giovanni up from the street and rather than arresting him, 167 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.840 would just take him home and deliver him back to 168 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:15.440 his mom. There there was a point at which his 169 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:19.200 mom you know, realized that Giovanni was in a gang 170 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:22.960 and was you know, being exposed to the drug trade. 171 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:29.240 That she contacted the LAPD. She wanted them as I mean, 172 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:33.639 what a difficult moment for a mom to essentially turn 173 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:36.000 in her son, although she didn't really think she was 174 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:39.200 turning him in. She she more than anything wanted the 175 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:43.399 LAPD to kind of scare him straight and kind of 176 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:48.320 break this cycle or slow this descent that she was witnessing. 177 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:50.679 But you know, the LAPD came to their house and 178 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.399 rousted Giovanni out of his bed and found some crack 179 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.480 cocaine and next thing you know, he's being hauled off 180 00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:01.440 to juvenile hall and you know, that's his introduction to 181 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.320 the criminal justice system. I'm sort of triggered by his 182 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.799 own mom out of deep concern for him, but also 183 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:15.120 not really understanding the implications of what it's going to 184 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.799 mean for her son to be part of that system, 185 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:24.080 and also the extreme danger of the gang perhaps discovering 186 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:28.720 that she is interfering with, you know, their business, or 187 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.840 at least compromising the ability of one of their new 188 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:36.399 young soldiers to assist in that business. So there's some 189 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:40.759 really heartbreaking moments, and I would try to put myself 190 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:47.480 in Mom's shoes, recognizing danger but feeling just utterly powerless 191 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:48.600 to do anything about it. 192 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:52.600 You say, at this point, he's not a gang member, 193 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.240 but he's trying out the uniform. He shaves his head, 194 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.679 and he gets noticed in the neighborhood by the Eighteenth 195 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:06.039 Straight or the Columbia Little Psycho's gang. So what happens 196 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:10.960 in terms of this seduction and his transformation into believing 197 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:14.919 that he belongs to the gang and rejects the lessons 198 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:16.559 and the warnings from his mother. 199 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:21.080 Well, up to that point, Giovanni had been kind of 200 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:25.159 like a skater rocker kid. He had like big spiked 201 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:27.960 up hair and wore the skinny jeans and he was 202 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:32.480 just skating around the community, listening to you know, metallica 203 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:37.200 and red hot chili peppers and sounds quite frankly, a 204 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.519 lot like my son when he was that age. Sure, 205 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:42.720 and not that I didn't worry about him, but it 206 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:45.559 didn't seem like the worst thing in the world. And 207 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.799 there's just this moment where he realizes that this identity 208 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.440 isn't isn't working so well for him. And in particular, 209 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:59.039 you know, a teenage boy interested in girls, and he 210 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:03.080 was kind of kind of a grimy, grimy skateboarder kid, 211 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.360 and he wanted a new look, a fresher, harder look, 212 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:10.720 and that's when he shaves his head and suddenly has 213 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:15.480 the creased genes and the white T shirt and he 214 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.639 kind of puts on the uniform of the gang and 215 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:23.240 he immediately gets recognized, like girls are stopping looking at him, 216 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.440 seeing him in this new light. And I know that 217 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.360 sounds like kind of kind of silly, like is that 218 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:34.639 really the great motivating force? Is that what turned this 219 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:38.000 kid into a gang member? And I would say probably 220 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:40.360 probably had a lot to do with it. I mean, 221 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:45.960 was that was a very potent draw. And the gang 222 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:49.519 was wary about Giovanni. They didn't really see him as 223 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.840 this sort of hard tough kid. And there's one gang member, 224 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.639 you know who I quote in the book who who 225 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:59.639 warned Giovanni to stay out of this, that this wasn't 226 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.200 for him, that this wasn't a game, that this was 227 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:07.120 like a really heavy racket and he wasn't cut out 228 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.480 for it. And he just kept insisting, he kept showing up. 229 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:14.440 He wanted to be recognized, he wanted to be accepted, 230 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.200 and you know, he called it respect. He wanted to 231 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:23.000 earn that respect from the gang. And eventually, you know, 232 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:27.279 he gets you know, he's there, the gang's there. They're 233 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:31.879 gonna take advantage of his availability and find ways to 234 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:32.519 exploit that. 235 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:36.480 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 236 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:41.440 these messages. Now you talk about that he is trying 237 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:42.360 out the uniform. 238 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:43.000 He is. 239 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:48.200 Attempting to impress the people in the neighborhood that are 240 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:52.759 involved in the Columbia Little Psychos tell us about the 241 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:57.200 tentacles of the gang itself. And you talked about rent collection. 242 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.960 That's the title of this book, The Rent Collectors, about 243 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:06.000 that the Little Psychos. Obviously, the cocaine is their main 244 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.920 source of income, and like you say, there are people 245 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:13.039 selling cocaine on their behalf tell us about this vendor 246 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:17.359 market and some of the people and characters that end 247 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.079 up being important to this story. 248 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:24.759 Yeah, I thought. You know, even within the gang world, 249 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.480 there was a feeling that, you know, if you're out 250 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.200 there selling drugs like this is just the price you 251 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:33.480 pay to be part of that illicit economy. If you're 252 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.599 selling a fake ID, you can't really complain if the 253 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.519 gang is extorting you, they want to cut of that 254 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:43.519 action' That's just how it goes. But the vendors were 255 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:48.759 a more complicated equation because a lot of vendors were 256 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.839 people from the community, and a lot of gang members 257 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.799 had grown up with those vendors, and those vendors had 258 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.039 looked out for them, and you know, if they were 259 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.319 a poor, hungry kid, maybe gave them, you know, a 260 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.160 tortilla or a mango or something, and so they were 261 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:09.279 not quite viewed as part of a nefarious economy. But 262 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:13.440 some things changed in the early two thousands, and there 263 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:17.759 was a big boom in bootleg CDs, and so there 264 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.279 were some vendors who were getting access to Hollywood screeners 265 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:27.279 and they were burning those and suddenly the biggest Hollywood 266 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:31.640 hits were available for a five dollars CD and often 267 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.599 available before the movie was even in theaters, and you 268 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.279 could you could walk down the streets of the MacArthur 269 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:41.079 Park area and other communities and just see these CDs 270 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:45.519 lined up on the sidewalk, usually atop a blanket or 271 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:49.480 a towel. And then there were there were other people 272 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.599 who were using the community to sell stolen merchandise, and 273 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:58.839 there was a boom and stolen tools for construction workers, 274 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.319 power tools, and so I think the gang one gang 275 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:07.079 member in particular, saw this as these were not the 276 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.519 quote unquote you know, good mom and pop vendors. These 277 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:14.319 were vendors that were taking advantage of the MacArthur Park 278 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.000 demographic and the marketplace there, and he thought that they 279 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.000 should pay their fair share too. So there was this 280 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:25.599 decision made that they were going to expand taxation to 281 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:30.079 those vendors as well, but only those vendors, not the 282 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.599 beloved vendors. But you know, this gang is a maximalist gang. 283 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:38.000 They extract from everyone, and pretty soon it was it 284 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:40.960 was hard to draw lines between which vendors you're going 285 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.319 to tax, which ones you're not going to tax. And 286 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:46.880 suddenly it was just a it was a tax on everyone. 287 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.079 And when you combine all these taxes, from the drugs, 288 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.599 to the IDs, to the gamblers, to the you know, 289 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:59.640 the Tostata lady, the gang was bringing in close to 290 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:04.079 a eighty thousand dollars a month just in tax revenue 291 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:10.480 from a neighborhood that's about two miles by two miles, 292 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.559 maybe less, maybe it's one mile by one miles. It's 293 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.799 a hostage stamp of a neighborhood and it was just 294 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:21.119 generating literally a couple million dollars a year just in 295 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.759 tax revenue. And so this became, like, you know, a 296 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:27.359 very lucrative thing for the gang. And I should add 297 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:34.359 the Columbia little psychos are they're nefarious, they're imposing this 298 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.960 taxation system, but they're also subject to one. They answer 299 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.240 to a higher authority, which is a prison gang, the 300 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:47.839 Mexican Mafia. And there is a Mexican Mafia member who 301 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:54.200 was and still is incarcerated at Supermax Prison in Florence, Colorado, 302 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:59.400 known as Puppet, and Puppet was orchestrating all this stuff 303 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:05.640 out on the streets of MacArthur Park. This was his domain. 304 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:09.160 And so the money that the gang was collecting from 305 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.079 those streets, a certain percentage of that was making its 306 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:17.480 way up to this higher, more powerful gang. And so 307 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:21.039 even if the Columbia Little Psychos wanted to stop, or 308 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.279 if law enforcement was interfering with what they were doing, 309 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.440 the Mexican mafia was not going to be content with 310 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.119 that disruption to their revenue stream. So the money still 311 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.599 has to keep flowing. And you know, nobody's going to 312 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.759 sympathize with the Columbia Little Psychos for being in this bind. 313 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:42.119 This is the world that they chose for themselves. But 314 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.519 it's not as simple as just just the gang out 315 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:52.359 on the street. There's a highly organized element inside our 316 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:57.400 prisons and they control those prisons. And if you think 317 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:01.160 that you or maybe your homie or loved one is 318 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.839 likely to end up in prison, they're going to have 319 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:05.240 to answer to that prison gang. 320 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:10.759 Let's talk about her dues that she has to pay 321 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:16.839 as a vendor. She's accepted from those fees and why 322 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.960 her name is Shorty and her family members work on 323 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:25.440 the streets in MacArthur Park. But she has been with 324 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:28.400 her parents and grown up with the vending business since 325 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.119 she was in kindergarten. You right, So tell us about 326 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:36.200 this particular person that has a special status in MacArthur 327 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:40.400 Park and the vending community. 328 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:41.359 At the time of the crime that we're going to 329 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.119 get to here in just the second. This young girl, Shorty, 330 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:49.880 she was fourteen years old, and she was a friend 331 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:54.119 to everybody, and she triangulated these various interests that were 332 00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:57.079 out there on the street. Her parents were from a 333 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.920 really remote, distant part of Guatemala up in the mountains 334 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:06.400 that had suffered through terrible kind of ethnic cleansing from 335 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:09.960 the Guatemalan military, and they had fled to come to 336 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.519 the US and were making their living as vendors in 337 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:19.039 the MacArthur Park community. And so she, yes, Shorty, grew 338 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.720 up in that world. She was out on the streets 339 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.000 every day. She would go there after school and be 340 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:28.400 there all day on weekends, and the police would stop 341 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:32.200 by and chat with her and try to milk her 342 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.680 for intelligence on what the gang was up to. And 343 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:37.799 she was always nice to them and would chat with 344 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.680 the cops and maybe throw them a tidbit without necessarily 345 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.119 understanding how it was going to be used. And the 346 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:49.240 gang would also be chummy with her and sort of 347 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.920 flirtatious with her and also protective, and you know, they 348 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.960 would ask her for intelligence about what the cops were 349 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:02.000 up to. And because of that role, when the gang, 350 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.400 on the occasions that they did try to collect money 351 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:08.240 from her or her family, she would make it very 352 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:11.440 clear that yes, they were exempt. They had a waiver 353 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:17.799 here because of their role hurdle supplying this intel and 354 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.640 also being a warning system for the vendors. So she 355 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.480 was almost like a lookout when the police would come 356 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:27.599 through to roust vendors. And I should add that in 357 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:31.640 this time, street vending was illegal in the city of 358 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:36.359 Los Angeles. It's not any longer. For decades, really, it 359 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.799 was illegal. There was no there was no permit you 360 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:42.000 could get, there was no license to vend. To sell 361 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:45.799 anything on the sidewalks of LA was just against the law. 362 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.440 It was a misdemeanor. And so when you mentioned the 363 00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:52.759 title the rent collectors, the gang is a rent collector 364 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.839 entity for sure. But in some ways the city was too. 365 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:02.519 Vendors would be rougsted and sometimes harassed, and their merchandise 366 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:05.279 would be seized, and a lot of times they would 367 00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:08.480 be ticketed or even arrested. And suddenly the city is 368 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:13.599 now collecting revenue from people who are involved in that 369 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.839 survival economy and so Shorty would be their lookout, and 370 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:23.240 she was working these various interests and found herself ultimately 371 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.519 as a witness to this terrible crime. 372 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.079 You talk about an officer that's a central character in 373 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:36.039 this and Edgar Hernandez, and he also not only knew Shorty, 374 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.240 but also knew Giovanni and had seen him over the 375 00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.720 years and had stopped him many times, so he knew 376 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:47.039 who he was and had been warning him as well 377 00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:48.599 that there was time. 378 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:49.680 To get out of this life. 379 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:56.000 And so there is a situation where a person named Tricky, 380 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:01.720 a member of the Little Psychos, doesn't really trust Giovanni 381 00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:04.680 and thinks maybe he's a snitch and has a rumor 382 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.359 that he's a snitch. Meanwhile, Giovanni thinks that the only 383 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.519 reason that he might have been accused of being a 384 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:15.480 snitch is because of his conversations with this police officer. 385 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:21.759 So what does happen with a member named Face and 386 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.519 the remedy of the situation for Giovanni who desperately wants 387 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.440 to be involved with the Columbia Little Psychos. 388 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.759 Yeah, so Tricky was what they call the shot caller. 389 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.440 He had a tattoo shop. He was actually a pretty 390 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.279 talented tattoo artist and was running a more or less 391 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:48.240 legitimate business, although he was selling a crack from behind 392 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:50.799 the counter as well. And that was right there in 393 00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:54.480 the middle of the MacArthur Park community, and that's where 394 00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:59.880 Giovanni went in and got his first gang tattoo. Tricky 395 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.440 tattooed to one and eight on Giovanni's forearms and kind of, 396 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:08.839 you know, signaled his formal, you know, induction into the gang. 397 00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:16.799 And I don't know if Tricky genuinely believed that Giovanni 398 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:21.039 was a snitch or just became like a kind of 399 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:24.880 a convenient way of trolling him, and you know, using 400 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:30.440 that kind of as leverage to manipulate Giovanni, who already seemed, 401 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.119 you know, gullible and susceptible to you know, doing whatever 402 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.920 these older older guys wanted them to do and wanted 403 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.440 him to do. And Tricky got kind of like a 404 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:46.200 right hand man or a prince in waiting named Face. 405 00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:51.960 And Face is running the taxation scheme out on the 406 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.519 streets of MacArthur Park, making sure that the vendors are 407 00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:58.720 all all paying their rent. And there was this one 408 00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:04.720 vendor man from Mexico City named Francisco, who is just 409 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:10.720 a very proud and I think courageous man who and 410 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:14.400 righteous who decided he was not going to pay his 411 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.400 rent to the gang anymore. And he stood up to 412 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.839 the Columbia little psychos, stood there on a street corner 413 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.559 in the summer of two thousand and seven and basically 414 00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:28.599 told them to go to hell. You know, he's he 415 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:32.880 does not owe them anything. These streets belong to everyone. Now. 416 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:35.200 I think if Francisco could do it all over again, 417 00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:40.279 he probably wouldn't have chosen that moment to make his stand. 418 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:44.599 But when you think about what that must have been 419 00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.519 like and how much guts it took, because he was, 420 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:52.000 you know, he was making a stand not just for himself, 421 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:54.519 but for all the other vendors out there who were, 422 00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:57.880 you know, being mistreated by this gang. And he's like, 423 00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:00.799 screw you guys. And of course the gang says you 424 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.480 have to leave. If you don't pay, you got to go. 425 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.559 And Francisco didn't leave. He just dug in his heels 426 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.839 and you know, this was this was not a battle 427 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:13.400 that he was going to win. He you know, he 428 00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:15.759 only owed the gang I don't know forty or fifty 429 00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:18.640 dollars at that moment, but it was just a matter 430 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.799 of principle, and the gang couldn't let it slide. Right 431 00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.039 if you let if you let Francisco off the hook 432 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.240 and he doesn't have to pay his rent, then you're 433 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:33.319 going to lose control of this whole taxation scheme. So 434 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:36.759 the gang decides tricky and then face that they're going 435 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.519 to have to teach Francisco a lesson. But of course 436 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.359 this is still like a low rent dispute, right if 437 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:49.880 you are tricky in face, they're they're thirty or above, 438 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.480 they're you know, this is this is old for the 439 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.119 for the street gang world. They're not going to want 440 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.200 to dirty their hands on something like that. So they 441 00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:03.759 need somebody who is gone, somebody who is expendable, and 442 00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:06.519 somebody who's going to do whatever they say. And that's 443 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:11.519 where Giovanni comes in. He had just turned eighteen, and 444 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.720 they summoned him out to the street corner and they 445 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.079 put a gun in his hands and they told him, 446 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.359 you have a mission. And honestly, you know, I don't 447 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.759 think anyone believes that Giovanni woke up that morning with 448 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.240 the intention to kill somebody. I don't think he had 449 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:34.880 just didn't have that. He didn't even know who Francisco was. 450 00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:37.720 He wasn't part of this taxation scheme, so there was 451 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:41.119 there was no beef, there was no fury, there was 452 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:46.160 this was just a job. And you know, unfortunately Giovanni 453 00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:48.599 at that time in his life wasn't able to see 454 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:54.440 Francisco's humanity. He just at that moment he was an 455 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:59.960 impediment in the way of Giovanni's effort to rehabilitate himself 456 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.599 and rise of the gang's estimation. 457 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.720 You write that when he is summoned, he doesn't know 458 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.799 what he is intended to do. He maybe had some inkling, 459 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.119 but he has handed a gun and they said, he said, 460 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.880 what the hell is this for? And they said to 461 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:21.119 shoot this vendor and he said, hell no, and they said, 462 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:24.000 you know, you got to do this, And so he 463 00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.440 decided right then and there he had no choice and 464 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.359 he was going to get it done one way or another, 465 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.640 over and done with. Francisco has a wife that works 466 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:37.960 with him, Jessica Guzman, and also a friend that they've 467 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:41.839 taken he's taken under his wing as well, named Daniella, 468 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.240 and she had been recently pregnant. So tell us a 469 00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:49.680 little situation that they are in in terms of their 470 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:51.960 work on the sidewalk that day. 471 00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:58.920 Yeah, so you know, this is really the bargain basement 472 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:05.519 level of the informal economy. Francisco is selling cheapy electronics, 473 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:09.640 little earbuds or iPhone cases that he's buying in bulk 474 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:15.039 and selling for a couple bucks each. He's an auto 475 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:18.480 mechanic and he's got a body shop that he wants 476 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:22.720 to grow into a larger business. But he's undocumented and 477 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:26.519 he doesn't really have access to credit, and so he's 478 00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:30.559 trying to make some extra money to grow a business, 479 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.519 which is one of the reasons why he's so frustrated 480 00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:38.039 with this rent collection. He's now got a girlfriend slash 481 00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:42.599 wife in his life who he's just discovered is pregnant 482 00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:46.680 and so they have a baby coming. And then there's 483 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:50.279 Jessica had a friend, a roommate named Daniella, as you mentioned, 484 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:53.279 and she had just had a baby and was all 485 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:59.240 on her own and was just an incredibly vulnerable person. 486 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.480 You know, her baby, whose name was Luis an Hill. 487 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:06.799 She was out there on the streets on a Saturday 488 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:11.079 night when this baby was twenty three days old. And 489 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.440 I don't know about you, I'm a father. I would 490 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:18.920 never imagine having my child newborn out on those streets 491 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:24.319 under those circumstances. But Daniella did not have healthcare. Daniella 492 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.440 did not have childcare. Daniella didn't have any sort of 493 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:31.480 safety net. And she's got this, you know, newborn infant 494 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:35.119 that she needs, she needs to buy diapers for, she 495 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:38.920 needs to sustain this new life. And so she is 496 00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:45.079 out there next to Francisco and Jessica, and Giovanni marches 497 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:48.160 up to Francisco again. He doesn't know Francisco. He has 498 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.920 to go, he has to be accompanied by another he's 499 00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:55.519 not actually a gang member. He is technically a rent 500 00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:59.319 collector who collects for the gang. To point out to 501 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:03.119 Giovannie that that's Francisco, that's your target. And you know, 502 00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:05.559 Giovanni doesn't want to shoot the wrong person. He doesn't 503 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.559 really want to shoot Francisco, but at least, you know, 504 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:11.880 let's get this right. And so he walks up to Francisco. 505 00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:16.920 He's got a twenty two caliber gun, which is pretty tiny, 506 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:22.039 tiny weapon for somebody who's about to do this execution mission. 507 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:27.360 And he shoots Francisco four times and hits him in 508 00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:30.519 the chest and in the jaw and a couple other spots. 509 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:36.480 Francisco fortunately lives, he survives, He's around to this day. 510 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.639 I've sat with Francisco in his living room on multiple occasions. 511 00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:43.800 This is the worst thing that's ever happened to Francisco. 512 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:49.159 But he's he's he's alive, and he's functional, and it's great. 513 00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:53.840 The atrocity here, I mean, and then really, one of 514 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.320 the reasons why there is a book growing out of 515 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:01.599 all these threads is that one of the bullets hits, 516 00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:08.239 strikes kills danielle A's baby, who's swaddled in a stroller 517 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:13.599 next to Francisco. Giovanni never saw the baby, didn't discover 518 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:17.360 that this had happened until a couple days later, and 519 00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:21.280 I think didn't even quite grasp the gravity of it. 520 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:25.840 But in the gang world, where where all sorts of 521 00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:31.599 violence in Mayhem is is tolerated or even condoned, killing 522 00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:34.639 an infant is a bridge too far. That's like a 523 00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:40.519 war crime. You've crossed the line and the consequences are enormous. 524 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.800 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 525 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.719 these messages. Now, you say that what happens is that 526 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.519 Giovanni runs to the crash house, from the gang where 527 00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:59.519 the gang is set up. Next day, Tricky is there, 528 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.480 and you fucked up, You screwed up. And Giovanni doesn't 529 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:08.800 want to believe that this baby has been killed by him. 530 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.599 He knows he didn't intend to kill a baby, would 531 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:15.320 never shoot a baby or a child. But and so 532 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:18.840 Tricky says, don't worry about it. We'll blame it on 533 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:23.599 a rival gang, the Rockwood Gang, I believe, and I'll 534 00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:27.840 try to fix it. So he's supposed to lay low. 535 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:35.480 And while Tricky vows to fix the situation, meanwhile, what 536 00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:38.119 do police do, what do police know? 537 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:42.760 And how do they proceed? Well, I should add here 538 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:48.360 that what Giovanni doesn't understand, what he doesn't see, is 539 00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:54.000 that the killing of an infant has the potential to 540 00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:56.800 rise up to the level of that prison gang, the 541 00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:01.239 Mexican mafia, and they're going to be so outraged by 542 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:05.000 what the Columbia Little Psychos have done that they will 543 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.840 impose what's called a green light on that neighborhood. Just 544 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:15.280 basically open season. Go, shoot, stab, whatever you want to do. 545 00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:18.920 Any member of the Columbia Little Psychos, whether they're on 546 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.559 the street and a jail and a prison, you got 547 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.840 the green light, go go take it out on them, 548 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:27.159 because they have messed up in the worst possible way. 549 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:31.159 And the only way that the Columbia little psychos can 550 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:36.239 remove that green light or reemp that green light is 551 00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:39.679 to get rid of Giovanni, and they refer to that 552 00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:43.239 as cleaning up their yard or taking out the trash. 553 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:48.360 And Giovanni does not just doesn't get that. He doesn't 554 00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:51.719 see that, he doesn't know who who who are the 555 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:56.199 Mexican mafia godfather's running all of this. He just thinks 556 00:37:56.239 --> 00:38:00.440 that he's dirtied his hands and yeah, maybe he screwed up. Well, 557 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:04.039 and when he finds out he screwed up, he's aghast, 558 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:11.639 he's heartbroken, he's you know, sobbing and hyperventilating. But he 559 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:15.239 still thinks that the gang will look out for him 560 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:18.840 because he did their bidding. He did what they wanted 561 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:20.960 him to do, you know, he showed that he had 562 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:24.199 the stones to walk up to somebody and open fire. 563 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:27.920 And what the gang does is they tell him they're 564 00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:30.280 going to take him down to Mexico. They're going to 565 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:32.760 take him to Tijuana, and they're going to hide him 566 00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:37.880 out until the heat dies down and it's safe to return. 567 00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:42.639 And you say that they always thought he was naive, 568 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:47.119 so they still believe that. And he goes down there willingly. 569 00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:50.280 And there are other people accompanying him on this trip, 570 00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:54.440 including a woman named Midget and another person named Ranger. 571 00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.760 So they go to Mexico. Tell us what happens in 572 00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:03.199 Mexico and in terms of when he gets some recognition 573 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:04.960 that something. 574 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:09.800 Is amiss, Yeah, it's a really bizarre sequence of events 575 00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:14.800 in Mexico. They get there, you know, and they sort 576 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.679 of party for twenty four hours. They take Giovanni out 577 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:22.960 to the clubs, the bars, They go to a strip 578 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.360 joint where there's a prostitute that Giovanni's interested in, and 579 00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.639 you know, it's just they're almost like throwing him a 580 00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:33.920 bachelor party that he'll never have. I'm not quite sure 581 00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:36.000 why they were doing it that way. Was it to 582 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:38.599 assuage their guilt about what they were going to do 583 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.280 to him? Did they want him just to be kind of, if, 584 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:44.840 I don't know, relaxed and off guard that this was 585 00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:48.079 going to turn out badly. But after a night of partying, 586 00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:52.039 they get back in the car and they drive on 587 00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:56.639 this windy mountain road called La Ruem Rosa that separates. 588 00:39:56.679 --> 00:40:01.119 It's about halfway between tj and Mexico, calling kind of 589 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:04.199 right along the US border, and it's and it's a 590 00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:12.079 super dramatic cinematic spot. It's all these prehistoric rock formations 591 00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:16.239 and twisty roads. It really looks like another planet. It's 592 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:20.400 a rather extraordinary environment. And this is where in the 593 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:22.719 middle of the night, they pull over to the side 594 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:26.440 of the road and Giovanni's own homies, members of his 595 00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:32.000 own gang, throw a rope around his neck and strangle 596 00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:35.239 him and they're yanking and yank, and they're telling him, 597 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:39.119 you know, motherfucker and face you know who put him 598 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.880 up to this shooting? Is one of those guys yanking 599 00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:45.920 and he in this kind of I don't know, is 600 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:49.480 it a tender moment, says, you know, you were a 601 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.639 good homie, you were a good homie that you fucked up, 602 00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:57.360 And it's almost like he feels bad about strangling him, 603 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:01.960 which of course he doesn't, but they they yank so 604 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:04.960 hard they've practically pulled Giovanni out of the front seat 605 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:06.880 of the car and to the back seat and they 606 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.159 and they feel his body go limp and they drag 607 00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:12.719 him out of the car and they're up on this 608 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:16.320 this cliff, you know, looking down into this huge gorge 609 00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:19.719 and they you know, one of them's got Giovanni by 610 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:21.840 the hands and the other by the feet and they 611 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.880 just do a heave ho over the edge and dump 612 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:29.800 him down there. And this this crew of eighteenth Streeters. 613 00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:34.440 They drive back to la and they they report to 614 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:38.599 the big homies that they've they've taken out the trash, 615 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:42.880 Giovanni's gone. Business can go back to normal, and they 616 00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:47.599 just wash their hands of this whole thing, and lo 617 00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:52.239 and behold, Giovanni wakes up on the side of that cliff. 618 00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.800 And to me, this is just this is like the 619 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.599 part of the book that reads more like fiction than nonfiction. 620 00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.239 You know, there's this this beyond belief quality. His his 621 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:09.039 neck is core up, he's he's bleeding, he's he's vomited 622 00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:14.519 on himself, but internally he's basically intact. They didn't really 623 00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:18.400 do any now, all the damage is superficial, and you know, 624 00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.599 Giovanni wakes up and he's trying to figure out like 625 00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:23.559 what happened to him, Like last thing he knew he 626 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.000 was partying with his homies, and here he is, you know, 627 00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:30.280 clinging to the side of a cliff, and he and 628 00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:33.199 he crawls out, he crawls up the cliff and to 629 00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:36.280 hoists himself onto the side of the road. And he's, 630 00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:39.880 you know, standing there in his socks. They've stolen his shoes, 631 00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:44.239 and and he's and and I'm just like obsessed with 632 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:48.039 that moment. Like this kid who has like risen from 633 00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:52.039 the dead and now has to decide what he's going 634 00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.239 to do. He's got no idea on him, he's got 635 00:42:55.239 --> 00:43:00.519 no money, he's got no cell phone, he's he's a hand. 636 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:05.599 You know, he's done, like he's done the worst thing imaginable, 637 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.440 and he's going to have to figure out how to 638 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:10.840 live with that. On the other hand, literally nobody knows 639 00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:13.440 where he is, and anyone who does know where he 640 00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.840 is thinks he's dead. So he's kind of home free 641 00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:21.440 in a way. He's gone off the grid in some respects. 642 00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:25.880 But his mother is the person he would like to 643 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.519 speak with. He can only remember one phone number, remarkably, 644 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:33.239 and that's his girlfriend, Mehra, and so he gives her 645 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.159 a call and wants the message to get to his 646 00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:39.920 mother to come and rescue him, and of course she 647 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:44.519 goes out gets lost, but finally does pick him up 648 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:46.079 in the desert, doesn't she. 649 00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:50.159 Yeah, I mean, you know, I think this says a 650 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:54.280 lot about who Giovanni was, in his level of naivete 651 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:59.760 and the pressure that these older people applied on him 652 00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:03.280 to do their dirty work. I think somebody with more 653 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:07.400 resources or more cunning might have restarted their life. You know, 654 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.519 they would have they'd go down Baja and become a 655 00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:14.320 fisherman on the Sea of Cortes or something. Giovanni, what 656 00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:17.280 did he do? He called his mom, you know, a 657 00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:19.920 truck driver brought him down into Mexicoli. He goes into 658 00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:24.159 a convenience store, a nice cashier lady gives him coins 659 00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:27.280 for a payphone, and yeah, it takes his mom a 660 00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:31.440 while to come down there. She comes down with Giovanni's girlfriend, Mara, 661 00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.320 and now what do you do? What do you where 662 00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:39.239 do you go? I mean, he probably should have talked 663 00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:44.239 to a lawyer and weighed his options and proceeded in 664 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.880 a way that would serve his interests and also serve justice. 665 00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:51.360 But they were scared. They had to think on the fly, 666 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.920 and he ends up getting on a greyhound bus with 667 00:44:54.960 --> 00:45:00.519 his girlfriend and they end up in Utah and girlfriend 668 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:04.360 has a friend there. The friend's stepdad works in a 669 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:09.639 slaughterhouse and a meat processing facility. And interestingly, this facility 670 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:13.159 had just been raided by immigration a few months earlier, 671 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:18.239 and they had a huge workforce problem, like they needed 672 00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:21.920 warm bodies, and so, you know, I'm not sure that 673 00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:27.159 this is exactly what the what the immigration enforcers would 674 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:31.599 be looking for. But there's Giovanni covered in Eighteenth Street 675 00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:35.519 gang tattoos and his neck all torn up. But Giovanni 676 00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:38.199 is a US citizen and he can prove it, and 677 00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:42.760 he gets hired by this meat processing company and finds 678 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:47.960 himself carving up how carcasses in a slaughterhouse for the 679 00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:51.880 next month and a half. Yeah, it's very, very interesting. 680 00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:58.159 And then you introduce another major character, Detective David Holmes. There's, 681 00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:02.119 of course, the person we meet mentioned Shorty. She eventually 682 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:07.400 talks to police. Eventually there's an anonymous call, there was 683 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.360 an interview with police, but eventually she comes clean. But 684 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:14.559 prosecutors and detectives know that they need more information in 685 00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:18.679 terms of just what she witnessed and her story, so 686 00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:22.519 they need somebody from the inside, and David Holmes decides 687 00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:26.199 to go see Maira and talk to her. Tell us 688 00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:30.719 about David Holmes and what he intends to do speaking 689 00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:31.960 to Myra. 690 00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:36.599 Well, first of all, we should credit this this gang officer, 691 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:40.679 Edgar Hernandez, who knew about Myra and knew she was 692 00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:43.440 Giovannie's girlfriend. And he decides he's going to go to 693 00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:46.199 her house and just pay her a visit. Yeah, and 694 00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:50.280 he shows up and Myra's sister is there and she, 695 00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:55.400 I think, without quite realizing the circumstances, says, you know, 696 00:46:55.519 --> 00:46:58.239 they tried to kill Giovanni. And up to that point, 697 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:03.599 everyone just assumes Giovanni's dead. Right, Like, the police know 698 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.920 how the green light works, They know that the kid 699 00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.559 who does this terrible crime is likely to be killed, 700 00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:16.199 so they almost have no expectation of ever finding Giovanni alive. 701 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:21.280 When the girlfriend's sister says they tried to kill him, suddenly, 702 00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:25.239 you know, light bulbs are going off and the LAPD 703 00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:30.199 realizes that Giovanni he's not dead, and they're able to 704 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:34.440 make contact and get word to or the sister gets 705 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:37.800 word to Giovanni in Utah, or through her sister to Giovanni, 706 00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:41.880 and next thing you know, Giovanni is calling this homicide 707 00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:46.880 detective David Holmes, and Holmes is right out of Central Casting. 708 00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:55.480 He's in this elite homicide unit. He broad shoulders, conservative background, blonde, sandy, blond, 709 00:47:55.559 --> 00:47:59.320 cru cut, he's he's got the suit and tie, and 710 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:02.880 he just hops on a plane straight to Utah to 711 00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:07.559 you know, take his man into custody. And Giovanni, I 712 00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:09.679 think a lot of things were going on in his head. 713 00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:13.559 He was grappling with the guilt of what he'd done. 714 00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:20.159 He also saw that the investigation into who did the shooting, 715 00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:23.480 who ordered the shooting, was starting to touch people that 716 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:27.519 he cared about. The police had raided his mom's house 717 00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:32.320 and looking for him, and his mom kind of misdirected 718 00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:34.960 the police, saying she didn't know where he was, when 719 00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:37.119 of course she did know where he was. And I 720 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:40.960 think he felt that nobody should take the fall for this. 721 00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:44.079 He needs to man up, you know, live with the 722 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:47.239 consequences of what he did. And so he tells Detective 723 00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:52.159 Homes that that he'll he'll turn himself in. Just don't 724 00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:56.239 come barging into this house with guns blazing. He'll come 725 00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:00.159 out and and he does, and there's this this kind 726 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.840 of extraordinary moment where he walks out of the house 727 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:08.000 and down the driveway and there's Detective Homes and you know, 728 00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:10.559 he tells Giovanni to put his hands up, and he's 729 00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:13.480 got to, you know, frisk him and turns him around 730 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:16.639 to check his waistband. And Giovanni just sort of on 731 00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:21.320 his own pivots and wraps his arms around Detective Homes, 732 00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:24.320 who you know, his instincts are like, oh my god, 733 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:26.119 here it's on. You know, I'm gonna have to take 734 00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:30.840 this kid down. And what Giovanni's doing is he's hugging him. 735 00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:35.960 He buries his face and Detectives Homes chest here's here's 736 00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:41.440 here's this guy who's who's reeling in his prey and 737 00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.639 and and it's going to bring Giovanni to justice. And 738 00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:52.280 Giovanni just he needs a hug from this, from this strong, 739 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:56.320 authoritative male figure who's come to get him. 740 00:49:57.639 --> 00:50:02.000 That chooses has an opportunity to stop to hear the messages. Yes, 741 00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:06.760 you you write that it's extraordinary and remarkable that he 742 00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:09.840 keeps asking will will I be able to go home? 743 00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:12.000 Or how much time do you think I'll be able 744 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:17.360 to do? And Holmes is as elicited a confession from 745 00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:20.320 this person and really doesn't know how to answer this, 746 00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:23.079 because it doesn't look like he's going to go home 747 00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:27.639 anytime soon. I mean, his stepfather advised him to come clean, 748 00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:32.360 but they didn't think of the ramifications of not having 749 00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:37.159 a lawyer to advise them before he spoke the police. 750 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:41.719 Yeah, you know Holmes, Holmes is a master interrogator. He's 751 00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:47.719 he plays the fatherly figure, and you know this is 752 00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:50.880 there some manipulation going on. Well, you know, he's trying 753 00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:54.599 to extract a confession while he can. On the other hand, 754 00:50:55.440 --> 00:51:01.679 he's also giving Giovanni a way out a terrible predicament. 755 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:05.320 And you know, he tells Giovanni they're they're after the 756 00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:10.280 bigger fish, they're after face, they're after tricky like these 757 00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:13.719 are the heavyweight dudes from the gang that they're trying 758 00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:17.440 to take down. And and Giovanni sees that and that's 759 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:22.000 all true. But in helping Holmes make the case against 760 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:29.199 those older gang members, Giovanni is, you know, hanging himself, right. 761 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:32.679 He's confessing, he's he confesses that he's the trigger man 762 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:37.239 and and that spot without quite realizing that maybe he's 763 00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:42.280 just doomed himself. And and it's it's a really heartbreaking scene. 764 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:45.880 I was able to get several hours of tape of 765 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:49.960 that interrogation, and I and I recreate the dialogue. There's 766 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:53.840 a whole chapter that is just the dialogue of that interrogation, 767 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:57.400 and you just see him kind of you know, they've 768 00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:01.719 given given him just enough rope, and Holmes keeps telling him, Look, 769 00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:04.920 you know, good things will happen to people who tell 770 00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:09.679 the truth. And you know it's self serving because now 771 00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:12.400 he's got a case against Giovanni and these other people. 772 00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:15.440 And at the same time, if Giovanni had fought this case, 773 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:18.800 if he hadn't cooperated, you know, he'd be doing life 774 00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:23.159 without the possibility of parole. So it did create an 775 00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:27.920 opportunity for Giovanni to cooperate and by himself a second chance. 776 00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:34.599 You also write this very interesting development as well, from 777 00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:39.599 somebody that got involved with the gang after being a 778 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:45.280 prestigious criminal defense lawyer. So this person named coach you right, 779 00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:49.639 maybe we briefly talk about how he becomes involved with 780 00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:54.760 the Eighteenth Street Gang itself and the Columbia Little Psychos. 781 00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:59.760 Very interesting, I Saul Goodman on Breaking Bad. He is 782 00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:05.039 a criminal defense attorney. He could probably be a whole book. 783 00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:09.119 Unto himself. This was a guy who grew up tough, 784 00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:12.719 grew up in the gang world, and really cleaned up 785 00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:16.960 and turned his life around, ends up going to UCLA 786 00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:21.880 Law school, graduating with honors and just being like a 787 00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:27.559 real authentic redemption story, and gets a job with the 788 00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:31.800 Federal Public Defender's Office in Los Angeles at the exact 789 00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:37.519 time that the FBI has pursued a reco case against 790 00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:43.719 the Mexican Mafia, and the public Defenders recognized that a 791 00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:47.280 coach his name's Isaac Gehan is from that world or 792 00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:49.159 was from that world, and that he would be a 793 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:53.960 good person to help them connect to their clients and 794 00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:58.360 put on a better defense. And as coach is you know, 795 00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:01.760 getting to know members of the Mexican Mafia, it's almost 796 00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:06.239 as if the prison gang understood him better than he 797 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:11.840 understood himself. And look you when you when you, let's 798 00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:14.920 give credit where credit is due. The Mexican Mafia does, 799 00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:20.199 you know, terrible things. They're a nefarious organization. And yet, man, 800 00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:24.599 some of those people are really smart. They're master manipulators, 801 00:54:24.679 --> 00:54:30.320 they're expert their they're psychologists there they they they know 802 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:36.199 what buttons to push, they know what rewards will motivate people, 803 00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:44.679 and they converted Coach from a defense attorney into ultimately 804 00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:49.599 their money launderer and eyes and ears on the street, 805 00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:56.119 and he became the conduit for that, the godfather at 806 00:54:56.159 --> 00:55:01.159 Supermac's prison in Florence, Colorado and the streets of Los Angeles, 807 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:05.960 and he gets caught up in the FBI investigation and 808 00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:08.719 taken down and loses his law license. 809 00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:13.800 Well, we haven't mentioned, or maybe the audience doesn't realize, 810 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:18.280 is that this was an ongoing FBI and LAPD investigation, 811 00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:22.199 and so there was surveillance and wiretops. So while this 812 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:26.639 investigation is going on, there is all kinds of evidence 813 00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:31.199 being gathered in secret from these players that are involved 814 00:55:31.239 --> 00:55:33.000 in the Columbia Little Psychos. 815 00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:38.679 Yeah, it's a very complex tapestry. So the LAPD is 816 00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:42.119 trying to solve the shooting out on the street of 817 00:55:42.159 --> 00:55:45.400 MacArthur Park. They're trying to figure out who killed, who 818 00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:50.880 shot Francisco, who killed baby Louis on him. Meanwhile, the 819 00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:55.840 FBI has been busy trying to unravel the entire gang 820 00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:58.960 and build a different kind of case, a federal case 821 00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:03.760 that's more about the conspiracy and the financial aspect of 822 00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:06.679 it and less about the crime. On the street. And 823 00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:11.000 it's one reason why there's a whole host of characters 824 00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:13.199 in this book. And I have a legend at the 825 00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:15.920 beginning of the book almost like this is like one 826 00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:18.280 of those Russian novels where you need to keep track 827 00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:21.079 of who's who in what their role is in the 828 00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:21.920 gang hierarchy. 829 00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:26.440 So you say that many of these gang members, twenty 830 00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:30.400 of them of the twenty seven or so, take some 831 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:35.000 sort of plea agreement, and there's only a few that don't. 832 00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:39.039 And so we have the case of the trial that 833 00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:44.000 basically of the people that tried to kill Giovanni, and 834 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:47.639 Giovanni obviously being a witness at that trial. So tell 835 00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:50.119 us what happens at that trial, and then tell us 836 00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:55.239 about this what all this cooperation and his attitude and 837 00:56:55.280 --> 00:57:00.840 even people in law enforcement trying to recommend that he 838 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:05.480 gets something less than maybe what he might get. Tell 839 00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:06.960 us about those efforts. 840 00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:12.360 Yeah, so you know, Giovanni agrees to cooperate. He does this, 841 00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:17.039 you know, without an attorney advising him. Once I eventually 842 00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:19.719 got to know Giovanni, I wanted to, you know, grab 843 00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:22.920 him by the collar and say, dude, don't you watch 844 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:26.320 don't you watch TV? Don't you watch the movies, don't 845 00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:29.400 you know you're supposed to act, ask for an attorney. 846 00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:32.840 And he was just so naive that he he felt 847 00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:35.400 that if the government appointed him an attorney, that that 848 00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:39.440 attorney would then tell the DA or tell the prosecutor 849 00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:44.320 everything that Giovanni did. So he didn't really understand that 850 00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:49.400 there would be somebody who would be ethically bound to 851 00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:53.559 defend him and him alone, and that you know, that 852 00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:56.639 cost him, That cost him many, many, many years. So 853 00:57:56.719 --> 00:58:00.119 the upshot is that Giovanni testifies in three trials. So 854 00:58:00.199 --> 00:58:04.199 he testifies in the trial about the shooting that he 855 00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:08.400 participated in, He testifies in that federal Rico trial against 856 00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:12.320 the whole organization of the gang. Testifies in one more 857 00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:16.840 trial when one of the people involved was captured in 858 00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:20.159 Mexico after four and a half years and brought back 859 00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:23.960 and extradited, and you know, a great risk to himself, 860 00:58:24.039 --> 00:58:27.440 right this gang already wanted to kill him, and now 861 00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:33.320 he is going into a public courtroom and testifying further 862 00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:35.639 against that gang. And you know, I just think of 863 00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:38.239 the you know, it also takes a lot of courage 864 00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:41.840 on Giovanni's part. You know, Giovanni did something terrible. But 865 00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:44.599 there's you know, there's then there's different ways of dealing 866 00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:46.679 with that. You could just keep your mouth shut and 867 00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:50.960 be one of the bad guys forever, or you could 868 00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:53.840 say I've done something terrible and I'm going to do 869 00:58:53.880 --> 00:58:58.760 everything in my power to right this wrong. You know, 870 00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:01.320 I think it was really scary for Giovanni to take 871 00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:05.079 the witness stand, and he gave, you know, extraordinary assistance 872 00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:08.800 to the government. As a result of his cooperation, he 873 00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:13.199 was given a prison sentence of fifty one years, and 874 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:17.440 that I don't know. I'm sure there's people listening who 875 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:20.719 think that he should get one hundred and fifty one years. 876 00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:24.079 But I'll tell you that the homicide detective who took 877 00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:28.000 him into custody thought that Giovanni was so cooperative and 878 00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:31.599 so helpful to the investigation that he should get twenty 879 00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:34.599 five or thirty years. But of course that person doesn't 880 00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:38.039 get a vote. The DA was holding all the cards 881 00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:41.320 and that was the best deal. By then, Giovanni did 882 00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:43.119 have a lawyer, and that was the best deal they 883 00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:45.639 could get. Fifty one years. And you know, when you're 884 00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:50.960 eighteen years old, fifty one years is sounds like a 885 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:54.239 life sentence. Yeah. 886 00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:57.239 And what's interesting too is that there was all kinds 887 00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:00.599 of plea agreements from people that were in much higher 888 01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:03.599 positions because he was in such a low position within 889 01:00:03.639 --> 01:00:08.159 this gang, but really high ranking gang members got much 890 01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:11.000 less in terms of their plea agreement sentences. 891 01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:15.599 Yeah. I mean, it really exposes the first of all 892 01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:21.199 the different agendas between a state prosecution and a federal prosecution. 893 01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:24.679 In this case, the state prosecution is all about solving 894 01:00:24.719 --> 01:00:28.559 the crime, and the people that participated in that crime 895 01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:33.239 largely got sentences of life without parole. In the federal case, 896 01:00:33.320 --> 01:00:36.639 where it was more about exposing the mechanics of the 897 01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:42.280 organization and finding ways to dismantle the enterprise, they need 898 01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:46.679 more cooperation from those participants. You need cooperating witnesses to 899 01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:49.960 kind of pull back the curtain and expose the the 900 01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.639 mechanics of the gang. And a lot of those people 901 01:00:53.679 --> 01:01:00.960 cooperated and got extraordinary I think sweetheart deals. The shot 902 01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:04.320 caller of the gang, you know, the guy who ran 903 01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:07.719 everything out on the streets of MacArthur Park, he ended 904 01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:10.599 up cooperating with the federal government and got a twenty 905 01:01:10.599 --> 01:01:14.920 four year sentence. And so the idea that the guy 906 01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:21.039 who wanted Francisco dead got less than half the sentence 907 01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:25.039 that Giovanni did. Just seemed like a kind of an 908 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:30.480 extraordinary asymmetry and just a reminder that you know, when 909 01:01:30.519 --> 01:01:35.559 you get into the criminal justice system, expedience is often 910 01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:39.760 the rule, and it often beats out justice itself. 911 01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:46.280 What was the legal fate of the killers of Daniello's baby? 912 01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:54.320 So you know, Giovanni, the killer fifty one years face, 913 01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.360 who was out on the street that night, got a 914 01:01:56.400 --> 01:02:01.159 life sentence. The person who brought the gun a life sentence. 915 01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:06.440 The person who showed Giovanni to the vendor walked him 916 01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:10.880 up there, got a life sentence. Person who disposed of 917 01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:14.960 the gun got a life sentence. Only one person was 918 01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:19.159 able to negotiate their way out of that and was 919 01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:22.440 a kid who took the weapon from Giovanni after the 920 01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:25.639 crime and then passed it over to the person who 921 01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:28.239 disposed of it. There were six people out there that night, 922 01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:32.480 which seems like a lot. Definitely a wider range of 923 01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:34.639 sentences in the federal case. 924 01:02:36.599 --> 01:02:43.039 Very interesting that you tried to write Giovanni in and 925 01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:47.079 eighteen and a response came in late two and eighteen, 926 01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:51.159 and you were you say that he was surprised to 927 01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:54.400 hear anybody wanted to hear him out, to hear his story. 928 01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:58.719 And you say you were moved by by his willingness 929 01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:02.639 to open up his life, and it came with no 930 01:03:02.719 --> 01:03:06.239 conditions or expectations. He just wanted to show people, or 931 01:03:06.760 --> 01:03:11.559 to impart people, what was in his heart. So thus 932 01:03:11.679 --> 01:03:12.719 this book project. 933 01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:18.159 Yeah, there's no way this book would exist without Giovanni's 934 01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:23.000 openness and bravery. I didn't know him, I didn't have 935 01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.880 any introduction to him. I had only read about his 936 01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:31.280 testimony in the newspaper, and I thought, I thought he 937 01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:34.599 was the key to everything. Here was this person who 938 01:03:34.719 --> 01:03:38.440 commits a crime, a terrible crime, and then who survives 939 01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:42.400 a terrible crime, and he could talk about both of them. 940 01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:45.800 You don't usually get that in one person who's able 941 01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.360 to give a blow by blow account. So just from 942 01:03:48.440 --> 01:03:52.519 the I suppose, from the storytelling the true crime aspects 943 01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:56.679 of the book, I thought his involvement was essential. But 944 01:03:56.800 --> 01:03:59.679 on the deeper level, I just wanted to know, you know, 945 01:03:59.719 --> 01:04:04.320 who he was, and how this environment of MacArthur Park, 946 01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:07.960 which has been in the news. We should add, you know, 947 01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:15.159 the very prominently Ice Enforcement Immigration Enforcement agents showed up 948 01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.199 in the park a couple of weeks ago with armored 949 01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:22.519 vehicles and on horseback and really tried to send a 950 01:04:22.519 --> 01:04:26.679 message of fear and intimidation to this community. You know, 951 01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:31.079 I wanted to know how that environment led Giovanni astray 952 01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:36.679 and who he was today or in the year that 953 01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:39.800 I wrote to him, which was seven years ago, and 954 01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:42.239 who did he want to become. And I started the 955 01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:44.320 letter by saying, you know, I don't know you, and 956 01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:47.679 you don't know me, and if you want me to 957 01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:50.119 leave you alone, I will, but I'm going to go 958 01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:52.559 out on a limb and say you're not the same 959 01:04:52.679 --> 01:04:56.679 person today who pulled the trigger back in two thousand 960 01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.000 and seven. And if you want to talk about who 961 01:04:59.039 --> 01:05:02.800 you are now, who you are trying to become, I 962 01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:06.360 have an open mind. And that started a relationship that 963 01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:13.639 has spanned letter writing, phone calls, in person visits, and 964 01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:17.360 it continues to this day. Giovanni has become just a 965 01:05:17.480 --> 01:05:21.440 really important person in my life. You know. I approached 966 01:05:21.519 --> 01:05:24.079 him probably a little more hands off in the beginning 967 01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:27.320 because he's a character in the book. He's a subject, 968 01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:31.599 and I need to establish some boundaries now that the 969 01:05:31.599 --> 01:05:36.079 book is done, and you know, he's still incarcerated, and 970 01:05:36.119 --> 01:05:40.480 he's still, you know, looking for ways to improve himself. 971 01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:43.960 I get to be more of a of an ally 972 01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:48.639 and a cheerleader and a source of support. And when 973 01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:53.519 when Giovanni calls me up to tell me that he 974 01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:56.119 got a one hundred percent on a test he took, 975 01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:59.760 whether it was for his ged or a college class, 976 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:05.000 or he got a commendation from his supervisor in the 977 01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:09.000 job that he does inside the facility, and he wants 978 01:06:09.039 --> 01:06:12.599 to share that with me, it just really it really 979 01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:16.000 moves me. And I get to tell him I am 980 01:06:16.159 --> 01:06:20.039 so proud of you. And when I say those words 981 01:06:20.039 --> 01:06:22.920 to him, I sort of catch myself because you know, 982 01:06:22.960 --> 01:06:26.559 I've said those words to my son ten thousand times. 983 01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.599 My son's just a couple of years younger than Giovanni, 984 01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:32.000 and you know, I've said it so many times that 985 01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:36.239 he's allowed to take that for granted, right, And then 986 01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:39.519 I think how many times did Giovanni hear that? What 987 01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:44.199 were those moments when Giovanni needed a parent, a dad 988 01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:46.760 to say, I'm proud of you. I believe in you. 989 01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:51.800 I know you can be something more than what we're 990 01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:54.760 seeing outside our door here. And to me, that's like 991 01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:58.480 the real, real tragedy of this that all the ways 992 01:06:58.559 --> 01:07:03.119 that adults failed Giovanni in his life, all the ways 993 01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:08.119 that our system failed Giovanni. You know, he he didn't 994 01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:12.719 ask for anything when he joined me in this project. 995 01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:16.800 He just really funny. People will ask him, oh, did 996 01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:18.960 you did you get paid for this book? Well, of 997 01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:23.360 course not. But he what he tells people is it's 998 01:07:23.360 --> 01:07:26.400 a blessing. It's a blessing to be able to tell 999 01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:30.320 his story. And I'm just incredibly grateful to him for that. 1000 01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:34.599 Absolutely, and so are we. Thank you so much for 1001 01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:38.960 coming on and talking about your extraordinary The Rent Collectors Exploitation, 1002 01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:45.119 Murder and Redemption in Immigrant La. So for people that 1003 01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:47.199 we might want to find out more about this book, 1004 01:07:47.480 --> 01:07:51.400 do any you have a website, do any social media? 1005 01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:57.440 The book is summarized on my website, The Rent Collectors 1006 01:07:57.599 --> 01:08:04.039 dot com and I'm on and Facebook and Instagram under 1007 01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:06.559 by Jesse Katz. 1008 01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:11.880 Thank you so much, Jesse Katz, The Rent Collectors, Exploitation, 1009 01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:16.039 Murder and Redemption in Immigrant La. Thank you so much 1010 01:08:16.039 --> 01:08:18.520 for this interview, and you have a great evening, and 1011 01:08:18.600 --> 01:08:19.000 good night. 1012 01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:22.640 Thank you, Dan, It's been a great pleasure. Thank you. 1013 01:08:23.239 --> 01:08:23.600 Good night