WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.439 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 2 00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.759 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 3 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.639 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.400 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That 5 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:12.919 is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 6 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:16.399 Chumpback Casino has all your favorite social casino style games 7 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.559 you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. 8 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.079 That's your brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot so 9 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.440 sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbu 10 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:27.399 Casino dot com. 11 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:29.399 No progentesses, every daily rio where ever. I lost the 12 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:30.600 terms conditions eating plus. 13 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:35.039 Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck. 14 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:38.479 I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse. With family, 15 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:41.799 canolis and spins mean everything. 16 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:44.520 Now you want to get mixed up in the family business. 17 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:48.640 Introducing The Godfather at champacasino dot com. 18 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:52.640 Test your luck in the shadowy world at the Godfather slote. 19 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:55.520 Someday I we'll call upon you to do a service 20 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:55.799 for me. 21 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.679 Play the Godfather now at chumpacasino dot com. 22 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:02.000 Welcome to the fa vdW group. No purchase necessary. If 23 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.920 we were premitted by loss hee terms and conditions eighteen 24 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:04.359 plus lo. 25 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:07.400 It is Ryan here and I have a question for you. 26 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:09.719 What do you do when you win? 27 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:10.200 Like? 28 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.439 Are you a fist pumper, a wooo, a handclapp or 29 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:14.000 a high fiver? 30 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:15.239 I kind of like the high five. 31 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:17.040 But if you want to hone in on those winning moves, 32 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:20.400 check out Chumbuck Casino. At Chumbuckcasino dot com, choose from 33 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:23.000 hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to 34 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.799 redeem serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly 35 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:29.799 plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait. Start having the 36 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.519 most fun ever at Chumbu Casino dot com. 37 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.200 No vers necessary void whereby by lost the terms conditions 38 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:36.760 eighteen plus Okay. 39 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:42.799 Round two. Name something that's not boring, laundry, a book club, 40 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:49.760 computer solitaire. Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbuck Casino. 41 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:51.599 Chum. 42 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:54.920 That's right, Chumbuckcasino dot com as over one hundred casino 43 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.319 style games joined today and play for free for your 44 00:01:57.439 --> 00:01:59.200 chance to redeem some serious prizes. 45 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:05.840 Chum chumba casino dot com Pluster cons the busy whatever fails. 46 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.800 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 47 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:21.919 killers in True crime history and the authors that have 48 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:29.240 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 49 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:32.960 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 50 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:37.280 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 51 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:41.159 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 52 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:55.240 Good Evening. In May nineteen eighty eight, in Everett, Washington, 53 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:59.759 four year old Feather Rear disappeared while playing outside after 54 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:03.879 her her frantic cries drew Feather's mother to the dark 55 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:07.840 garage that was home to Richard Matthew Clark. Clark had 56 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.879 stolen the child, bound and gagged her and begun to 57 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:14.240 undress her. Only at the last instant was the little 58 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:18.560 girl saved by her mother's desperate intervention. The next victim 59 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:22.319 wouldn't be so fortunate. On the night of March thirteenth, 60 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:26.599 nineteen ninety five, Roxane Doll, aged seven, was abducted from 61 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.759 the bedroom she shared with her younger sister. It was 62 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:33.520 not until the following day that her mother discovered Roxane's disappearance. 63 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.639 A week later, Roxane's raped and stabbed body was found. 64 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.759 Evidence led investigators to a man the family had trusted 65 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:47.680 as a friend, Richard Clark. Clark was a petty criminal, jailbird, alcoholic, 66 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:51.560 and drug abuser who couldn't control his pedophilic and homicidal urges. 67 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.680 In April nineteen ninety seven, after his conviction for aggravated murder, 68 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:59.560 he mocked and derided the dead girl's parents in a 69 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:04.520 shocking courtroom display. Here is the brutal, heartbreaking true story 70 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:07.360 of the crimes and punishment of a monster who preyed 71 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.599 on the most vulnerable victims of all, and of the 72 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:14.960 determined prosecutor who swore to bring him to justice. The 73 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.800 book that we're featuring this evening is Broken Doll, a 74 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:22.000 parent's worst nightmare come true. With my special guest journalists 75 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:25.879 and author and broadcaster, podcaster and the legendary Burl Bear. 76 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.240 Welcome back to the PAM. Thank you very much for 77 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.439 agreeing this interview. Legendary. 78 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:34.639 My pleasure, always my pleasure to do your show and 79 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:36.480 pleasure to have you to my show. It kind of 80 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.680 go across over things and have on of the networks. 81 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.560 Absolutely, it's my pleasure. It's one of the biggest pleasures 82 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.480 to be on True Crimes, Uncensored, True Crime uns Burl Baron, 83 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:51.439 Howard Lapidis, and it's always a pleasure to have you on. 84 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.160 This is about our tenth or eleventh time now, So 85 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.240 if you're want the we don't have favorite. 86 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.560 For everyon. Absolutely absolutely. 87 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:10.120 Let's get to this story because it's quite involved, very 88 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:11.160 heartbreaking story. 89 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:12.399 This book. 90 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:18.319 Came out in two thousand and four. Burl is that it? 91 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:22.439 Yes, I believe that's correct. Yeah, I was living right 92 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:26.879 by Everett, Washington at the time. How close were you 93 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:29.279 to Everett, Washington? And tell us a little bit about 94 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.439 how big or small Everett Washington was at that time? 95 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:36.879 Is well, it still is, but it's medium medium size. 96 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:41.600 It's just north of north of Seattle, Washington. And you 97 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.639 ask how close it was to me on the other 98 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.120 side of the street. On one side of the street, 99 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:49.920 it's Everett, Washington. On the other side of the street, 100 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:53.439 it's muckle tee O Washington. So it depends on which 101 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:55.439 side of the line down the side of the road 102 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:59.680 you're on, which city you're at. The time where this 103 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:02.759 whole took place was no more than a matter of 104 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:08.000 perhaps five to seven minutes from where I lived, well 105 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:12.879 in fast to Home Roxandhl's father at the time I 106 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:17.160 wrote the book lived even closer than that. Were physically 107 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:22.279 within the almost walking distance of each other. Incredible. 108 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:26.399 Now you opened this book on May twenty eighth, nineteen 109 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:31.839 eighty eight, when we talked about Feather Ray here you 110 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:38.199 talk about her, her mother, Angela Rono, and you open 111 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:42.480 it right away with this incredible scene where her youngest daughter, 112 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.879 Feather And it's nine o'clock in the evening in this 113 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.360 little neighborhood, and you talk about there's a neighbor's home, 114 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:55.800 then there's the Roxanne's home. Will pardon me Rono home, 115 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.279 Her and her husband, Angela and her husband and the 116 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:03.480 kids are out playing hide and seek, and then guys 117 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:06.199 in around nine o'clock, right right. 118 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:10.360 And that it doesn't come in, and so she goes 119 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.240 to take a look. Well, where could she be? They 120 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.680 have the sister. You'll go find your sister. And she 121 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:20.199 goes over to the garage where Richard Clark lives at 122 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:22.920 his mom's place. And the mom's real nice, love kids, 123 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.680 and he says, no, she's not here, and but the 124 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:32.360 kid is inside. Well, when the and the kid hears 125 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:35.279 her sister inside, she runs and tells the mom. The 126 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:37.279 mom goes over to hers spanging on the garage door. 127 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:39.519 You'll let her, let my daughter out let me goes, oh, 128 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:42.000 she's not here, and then as well, I can't find 129 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.079 the lights. I'm trying to sleep, I can't find a key. 130 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.360 Finally he fumbles the door open. The mother runs in 131 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:49.800 and grabs the kid, and what she sees is the 132 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:56.240 kid's hands are tied with green socks, her pants are 133 00:07:56.279 --> 00:08:00.639 pulled down below her bottom, and the faces come with tears, 134 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.800 the kids sobbing. Well, of course she is furious. You know, 135 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.480 my god, my kid, Well you're doing He takes off running. 136 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.120 The two guys who are helping him look for a 137 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.439 feather go chasing after him and cash him and aren't 138 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.759 that plied to months to get him? She comes running over. 139 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.399 When the cops arrive, she's there beating on his chest 140 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.519 and screaming at him, while these two guys just sit 141 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:25.399 in and watch. He doesn't do anything to protect himself 142 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.360 from her. He's just standing there. Ytther stow it and 143 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:31.800 things go down hill from there, both for him and 144 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.759 for Feather. She's bad at me by the way. 145 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:41.240 You took about Feather, and she is questioned lightly. She's 146 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:45.200 only four years old, so she's questioned very sensitively by 147 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:50.200 this detective Snyder. I believe Officer Snyder, and she basically 148 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.360 communicates to him that he touched her, not put his 149 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:55.559 hand down her pants, but touched her on the outside. 150 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:57.879 And then, like you said, we said in the introduction, 151 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:02.279 probably got to got to Richard Clark just before he 152 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:07.200 did something much much worse. More so, he is charged. 153 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:09.679 As you write in the book, he is charged, and 154 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:12.399 what is he charged for? 155 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:16.679 While this is something I want to back up that's 156 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.279 been clarified you were reading at the beginning of the show, 157 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.559 but I believe is promotional material for the book, probably 158 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.840 off the back of it or something that sounds bigly familiar. 159 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:27.600 But I no, I didn't, don't. The guy wrote that 160 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.639 at the body of the text, basically his pedophiliac urges 161 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:36.320 he does not qualify as a pedophile. A pedophile is 162 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:39.519 someone who is only attracted sexually to people who have 163 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.919 not gone through puberty pre pubescent. Richard Betrick Clark was 164 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:48.240 not a pedophile. He was, however, with his term day 165 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:54.519 situational child molester. Now situational child molesters are usually not 166 00:09:55.039 --> 00:10:01.480 sexually motivated, even if sex is part of the molestation. 167 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:08.879 It's all about power, ironically, and this plays very importantly 168 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.840 into the story and with what happens with roxand All, 169 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:17.320 is that situational child molesters, beings that the issue is 170 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:22.960 power and not sex, are actually incredibly easy to rehabilitate. 171 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:27.399 Pedophiles a different story. The most pedophiles don't do anything 172 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.240 wrong anyway, it's very small percentage of the rest. They 173 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:34.519 keep it in fantasy land. But situational child molesters usually, 174 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:37.360 once they understand what's going on with themselves, go oh, 175 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:39.679 that's a stupid thing for me to do to deal 176 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:42.840 with this, and that's it. People get the two of 177 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:47.360 them confused, and in what we call the moral panics 178 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:50.279 or whatever, they tend to assume that every child molester 179 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:53.159 is the pedophiles of every pedophiles a child molester, when 180 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:57.279 neither statement is true. Unfortunately for all of us and 181 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:01.879 for Richard Matthew Clark, when he was arrested and sentenced 182 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:07.080 on this situation with Tether, he received one year in 183 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.639 the Stohomish County Jail, which is located in Everard, Washington, 184 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:16.240 And putting someone in jail may protect us from further 185 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.240 behavior while they're in jail for that year, but there's 186 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.759 absolutely nothing to rectify whatever's going on in his head 187 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.399 that's causing him to do that, And as we have 188 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.759 our conversation, we'll find out more why he's so screwed up. 189 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:36.799 But there was nothing, no treatment, no therapy, no talk 190 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:41.240 with a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist or anything to 191 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:45.279 deal with his underlying issues. So when he was released 192 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:49.240 one year later, he was exactly the same as he 193 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:54.120 was when he went in, except probably worse. I just 194 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:55.159 want to kind of clear that up. 195 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.960 You talk about thank you, You talk about too about rehability, 196 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:02.559 and we have to talk about both sides of this 197 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:08.120 incredible story. Is that right after this we talk about Feather, 198 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:11.519 she had been molested by her own father, abused by 199 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:13.960 her own father when she was two, so this other 200 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:18.960 event at four sent her into a you know, real tailstorm. 201 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.759 So she goes to live with a foster family. She 202 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:27.440 lives with a foster family Julie Galo or Jalo, and 203 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.720 received a lot of stability and structure in that home, 204 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:35.600 but she still wasn't rehabilitated in any real given way, 205 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:40.399 despite somebody caring for her. So during this period of 206 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:44.759 time that he is in prison, but afterwards, what happens 207 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:46.039 with Feather Raher. 208 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:51.919 Well, what happens with Feather is when he gets out 209 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.360 and this incident that we're going to about the Rocks 210 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.039 that Doll takes place, and you know, the one of 211 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:00.559 the prosecutors would like to show what to call it 212 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:04.440 a common plan or scheme when they're building the prosecution case, 213 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:08.200 they want to talk to her. She reportedly flips out 214 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:14.679 and runs away fear factor and it And I said, 215 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.960 now as an adult, she's mad at me for putting 216 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.720 all this in the book. But I'm sorry. You know, 217 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.360 I'm sorry if it bothered you, Feather, But it's an 218 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:25.519 integral part of the story. 219 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:29.440 What I was talking about when I was getting to 220 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:33.360 is that she becomes a troubled team despite this structure 221 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:38.399 in Julie's home, She's a significantly troubled teen and so 222 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:44.000 she has this created an emotional, devastating emotional impact, like 223 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:48.360 you say. And then seven years after that, there is 224 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:52.759 Rock sand Doll in April eighth and April first pardon me, 225 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:59.879 nineteen ninety five. Now you fast forward to Rock sand Doll, 226 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:04.240 her living arrangement with her mother Gail and her husband 227 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.279 Tim iffrig and tell us where Richard Clark is in 228 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.799 terms of the neighborhood before we get into what happened 229 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:17.279 just before that, and the relationship that Richard had with 230 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.639 the family, with Tim and Gail, his own family, and 231 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:25.320 just this little, small, little neighborhood he seemed to be 232 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:27.440 involved with in nineteen ninety five. 233 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.480 Well, yeah, as I mentioned, effort is not exactly it's 234 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:34.720 part of a larger metropolitan area. It's his own identity. 235 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.639 It's who had his ball town a very pleasant place 236 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:44.440 to live, nice school districts, et cetera. When I almost 237 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:47.559 have to put this in perspective, from the age of fourteen, 238 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.240 Richard Matthew Clark never to by knowledge, had a day 239 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.399 whether he wasn't either drunk or stoned. And if I 240 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.440 were him, probably I would have been in the same way. 241 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.679 Childhood was absolutely horrific, as was that of his brothers 242 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:06.799 and sisters. Now you can say, well, gee, a lot 243 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:10.320 of people have bad childhoods and don't do what he did, 244 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:13.639 and that's absolutely true, but not everyone responds to horrific 245 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:17.159 situations the same way. He was an extremely sensitive child, 246 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:21.960 loved his mother, despised his father, who kept him powerless 247 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.840 at all times. His father beat him mercilessly, forced him 248 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:29.399 to eat a cigar, was surprised to kill him. His 249 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.080 only refuge was his mother, who tragically was also an 250 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.960 alcoholic because you know, sixty percent genetic factor there. And 251 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.559 when his mother died in a tragic accident, all five 252 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.879 kids were split up and sent to different places. He 253 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:47.399 was sent to live with his aunt. Who is this 254 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:52.200 Richard matt Ufuk's mother and or aunt whatever it is, 255 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:57.480 life fate is to shady. There he goes, she takes 256 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:02.480 the child in. He goes to live with her, and 257 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:05.480 he is so traumatized by his mother's death that he 258 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.000 cannot grieve. He can't even bring himself to cry. He's 259 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:15.840 emostly disassociated in lockdown. Finally with her, he's comfortable enough 260 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:19.639 to break down and cry and hold on to her 261 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:23.799 for comfort, at which time, get this, she pushes him 262 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:29.559 away and says, I can't be your mother, I already 263 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:35.799 have children. And that's when Mom tell him would say, 264 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:38.360 the walls came down all the way to help. From 265 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:44.840 that moment until he went away prison forever, he never 266 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:48.360 had a day that he didn't numb himself with alcohol 267 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:50.679 and drugs. And it was never a day when he 268 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:56.279 didn't feel completely powerless, abandoned and alone except for those 269 00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.919 few moments where he could have power over some situation. 270 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.919 And he had become a friend was you know when 271 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.880 he appeared to be a nice enough fellow. And as 272 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.359 proof he wasn't a pedophile, he was having sex with 273 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.400 Rock sand Doll's grandmother was actually close to his own 274 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.039 age and these people and children young. Uh, so he 275 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.119 was having an affair with the grandmother who was not 276 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.880 really that ancient. Uh. And he was a sit around 277 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.920 and uh, drink maybe and get hye buddy with with 278 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:30.440 Tim Iffrit he's a friend of the family. Plus the 279 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.559 fact that he's sleeping with the grandmother, and so he 280 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:38.680 was kind to Roxanne, you know, uh in general, like 281 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.279 groomyer or something, and so that was kind of a relationship. 282 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.799 It kind of hung out there. The night of the incident, 283 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:52.160 he was there reacting with Tim, and the mother took 284 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.000 the grandmother into towns because she wanted to go into town, 285 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:59.480 which wasn't all that far. Uh. And then Dan, I'm 286 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:01.000 going to tell you something that I don't think he 287 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.880 can think is in the book unless it's in the afterward. 288 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:10.039 My comments is that Richard Matthew clark On my investigation, 289 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:16.200 did absolutely everything possible to keep himself from doing what 290 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:21.680 he did. He apparently could tell, like what someone could 291 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:23.359 tell when he's going to have a seizure or something, 292 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:28.599 he apparently could tell what he wanted to do the 293 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.720 seven year old Roxandal, who already was in bed at home, 294 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.119 and so he did everything he could to not go 295 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.200 back alone. He even went to the grandmother who had 296 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.680 just brought into town and essentially begged her to go 297 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:44.759 back go back with him. He says, no, I just 298 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.559 got here. That's what he does everything to find someone 299 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:50.599 to go with him to keep him from doing it. 300 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:54.039 He even goes out to the nearby Indian reservation. He 301 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:56.039 picks up a friend of his and makes him to 302 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:59.400 go with him back to the Dollart freak House. And 303 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.039 I think, but he Jimmy says okay. However, Jimmy is 304 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:05.599 drinking and by the time they get to the Dollar 305 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:10.400 freg House, Jimmy has passed out cold and Matthew Clark 306 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:15.359 is all by himself. And that's one of things go 307 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:16.480 from bad to horrific. 308 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.720 You take us to that night when you talk about 309 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.680 Gail doll deciding at nine o'clock to go to the 310 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.039 movie with their friend till or at ten o'clock to 311 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.359 go to a movie till about twelve o'clock, which is 312 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.480 commonplace for them. Next door neighbors Andy and Kim close proximity, 313 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.799 and then Richard Clark right by there and hanging around 314 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.319 a friend of Tim iffrig a friend of Gail. They 315 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:46.960 had spoken to him earlier. He had a van that 316 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:51.240 he drove. People didn't know if his past record with 317 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:52.599 feather Ray here, did they. 318 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:57.119 No, it wasn't something that was common knowledge. He had 319 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.240 a buddy from before he went to jail. It was 320 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:04.079 familiar with me by dope together and stuff. But it 321 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:08.240 wasn't likely the local pariah, you know. I mean, like 322 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:10.079 I said, he didn't get any help a it was 323 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.000 you don't walk him over the county jail for a year. 324 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.839 And this got out the same worse than it was 325 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:19.319 when he went in. Ironically, I spoke at length to 326 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:27.039 an expert on a young sexual molesters power motivated child molesters, 327 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.400 and he looked over the case and he shook his 328 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:34.599 head and said, if we could have got this kid 329 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.960 into therapy, this never would have happened. If they would 330 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.640 have spent a year working with him psychologically. Chances are 331 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.400 Rock Sandol will still be alive instead of just putting 332 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:53.119 him in a cell for year, quarantining the virus but 333 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.240 not racing it. 334 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:01.680 Well, you have you're at odds with what the the 335 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.559 way the prosecution presented this case later at trial, and 336 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:09.119 obviously there's a fair amount of theatrics and the tone 337 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:14.039 of seriousness and maybe even both sides doing whatever they 338 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:18.079 can to present their either client in a good way 339 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.079 and in prosecution to present the client in a very 340 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:21.880 very bad way. 341 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:27.559 But you talked about yeah, go ahead dead, Oh yeah, 342 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:28.079 no no. 343 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:31.559 But what I'm what I'm saying is that what we 344 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.160 got to get back to is the what you have 345 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:38.359 in the book is also you're contending that different things 346 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.519 happened at different times. And this was very interesting about 347 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:46.000 this case, the defense, the prosecution, and then your version 348 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:51.039 and your interpretation of this as well. Let's talk about 349 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:56.319 though the April first itself March thirty first, nineteen ninety five. 350 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.680 You talk about the mom, the younger brother or the 351 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:07.359 brother and Roxanne watching Cinderella, a Disney movie. Later, Tim 352 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:09.440 had worked all day. He was a hard working guy. 353 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.880 There was talk about him passing out on the couch 354 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:16.279 and then rich Right, So let's let's go into sort 355 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.680 of the events you talk about him. He did everything 356 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:24.400 in his power to avoid this altercation that he knew 357 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:29.440 that would happen with Roxanne Doll. But the prosecution paints 358 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.240 a completely different picture. So let's talk you about what 359 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.559 they what they portray, Well, what. 360 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:40.160 They portray is actually what happened when he gets there. 361 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:43.640 My observation is based on what did he do in 362 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:46.079 the intervening time or two. But he took the grandmother 363 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:51.839 into town, and when he committed this horrific crime, he 364 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:54.359 even went into the active and doing he shaved off 365 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.640 his mustache and put his band up for sale. That's 366 00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.359 what that's I called it, called the age as if 367 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:02.480 it never happened, and like trying to rewind the clock. Uh. 368 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:04.279 I mean, he's really a sick guy. 369 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.079 Uh. 370 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.200 To call him evil or call him a monstrous, to 371 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:10.400 dehumanize him as it he came from, you know, some 372 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:14.519 other dimension. But one time he was someone's beloved little 373 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:18.599 baby boy. Uh. And his his life, his soul is 374 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.519 everything has been uh, you know, totally perverted. There's probably 375 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:25.920 no helping him now. Of course he's beyond the beyond. Uh, 376 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.519 but it's just so tragic though, the whole thing. Uh. 377 00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:34.880 He and uh Tim frigg Doll planned on going camping 378 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.880 together the next day, along with some other folks, and 379 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.279 he'd been over there, you don't, hanging out drinking coffee, 380 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:44.839 smoking cigarettes. Two of them took the grandma into town. Uh. 381 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.279 Tim goes to cook something to eat, falls asleep on 382 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.519 the couch to house the smoke, and wife comes home, 383 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:54.160 as you didn't kill him from making such a mess 384 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:57.000 and sticking the house up. Uh you know, back you 385 00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:59.039 say he was a hard working guy, he was pretty tired. 386 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:01.720 He knew he was gonna up at the mongardly hour 387 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.880 of the morning to go camping with Richard Clark and 388 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:09.799 these other people. And this is what's just so tragically ironic, 389 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:13.160 as you know, where is the guy who you know 390 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:16.400 stole our daughter. He's out camping with the father. I mean, 391 00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:20.920 it's just so twisted, you know. Yeah, he comes back 392 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:25.039 with Jimmy passed out of Leveya and he takes the 393 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:29.440 kid out the bedroom window and that's it for that 394 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:37.039 poor child, violated, murdered, body dumped. Interesting in the book itself, 395 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:42.920 there is a most horrifying photograph of little Rock Sands 396 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:48.279 dead body, Yeah, partially decomposed. And so I say, how 397 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.920 could you put such a horrifying, off putting, nightmare reducing 398 00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:57.839 photograph in your book? And that was the insistence of 399 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:03.480 her parents. Wo Her parents wanted that horrifying picture of 400 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:08.079 their daughter in the book. They provided the picture. They 401 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:11.839