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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in True crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. In May nineteen eighty eight, in Everett, Washington,
Speaker 6: four year old Feather Rear disappeared while playing outside after
Speaker 6: her her frantic cries drew Feather's mother to the dark
Speaker 6: garage that was home to Richard Matthew Clark. Clark had
Speaker 6: stolen the child, bound and gagged her and begun to
Speaker 6: undress her. Only at the last instant was the little
Speaker 6: girl saved by her mother's desperate intervention. The next victim
Speaker 6: wouldn't be so fortunate. On the night of March thirteenth,
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety five, Roxane Doll, aged seven, was abducted from
Speaker 6: the bedroom she shared with her younger sister. It was
Speaker 6: not until the following day that her mother discovered Roxane's disappearance.
Speaker 6: A week later, Roxane's raped and stabbed body was found.
Speaker 6: Evidence led investigators to a man the family had trusted
Speaker 6: as a friend, Richard Clark. Clark was a petty criminal, jailbird, alcoholic,
Speaker 6: and drug abuser who couldn't control his pedophilic and homicidal urges.
Speaker 6: In April nineteen ninety seven, after his conviction for aggravated murder,
Speaker 6: he mocked and derided the dead girl's parents in a
Speaker 6: shocking courtroom display. Here is the brutal, heartbreaking true story
Speaker 6: of the crimes and punishment of a monster who preyed
Speaker 6: on the most vulnerable victims of all, and of the
Speaker 6: determined prosecutor who swore to bring him to justice. The
Speaker 6: book that we're featuring this evening is Broken Doll, a
Speaker 6: parent's worst nightmare come true. With my special guest journalists
Speaker 6: and author and broadcaster, podcaster and the legendary Burl Bear.
Speaker 6: Welcome back to the PAM. Thank you very much for
Speaker 6: agreeing this interview. Legendary.
Speaker 4: My pleasure, always my pleasure to do your show and
Speaker 4: pleasure to have you to my show. It kind of
Speaker 4: go across over things and have on of the networks.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, it's my pleasure. It's one of the biggest pleasures
Speaker 6: to be on True Crimes, Uncensored, True Crime uns Burl Baron,
Speaker 6: Howard Lapidis, and it's always a pleasure to have you on.
Speaker 6: This is about our tenth or eleventh time now, So
Speaker 6: if you're want the we don't have favorite.
Speaker 4: For everyon. Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 6: Let's get to this story because it's quite involved, very
Speaker 6: heartbreaking story.
Speaker 4: This book.
Speaker 6: Came out in two thousand and four. Burl is that it?
Speaker 4: Yes, I believe that's correct. Yeah, I was living right
Speaker 4: by Everett, Washington at the time. How close were you
Speaker 4: to Everett, Washington? And tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: how big or small Everett Washington was at that time?
Speaker 4: Is well, it still is, but it's medium medium size.
Speaker 4: It's just north of north of Seattle, Washington. And you
Speaker 4: ask how close it was to me on the other
Speaker 4: side of the street. On one side of the street,
Speaker 4: it's Everett, Washington. On the other side of the street,
Speaker 4: it's muckle tee O Washington. So it depends on which
Speaker 4: side of the line down the side of the road
Speaker 4: you're on, which city you're at. The time where this
Speaker 4: whole took place was no more than a matter of
Speaker 4: perhaps five to seven minutes from where I lived, well
Speaker 4: in fast to Home Roxandhl's father at the time I
Speaker 4: wrote the book lived even closer than that. Were physically
Speaker 4: within the almost walking distance of each other. Incredible.
Speaker 6: Now you opened this book on May twenty eighth, nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty eight, when we talked about Feather Ray here you
Speaker 6: talk about her, her mother, Angela Rono, and you open
Speaker 6: it right away with this incredible scene where her youngest daughter,
Speaker 6: Feather And it's nine o'clock in the evening in this
Speaker 6: little neighborhood, and you talk about there's a neighbor's home,
Speaker 6: then there's the Roxanne's home. Will pardon me Rono home,
Speaker 6: Her and her husband, Angela and her husband and the
Speaker 6: kids are out playing hide and seek, and then guys
Speaker 6: in around nine o'clock, right right.
Speaker 4: And that it doesn't come in, and so she goes
Speaker 4: to take a look. Well, where could she be? They
Speaker 4: have the sister. You'll go find your sister. And she
Speaker 4: goes over to the garage where Richard Clark lives at
Speaker 4: his mom's place. And the mom's real nice, love kids,
Speaker 4: and he says, no, she's not here, and but the
Speaker 4: kid is inside. Well, when the and the kid hears
Speaker 4: her sister inside, she runs and tells the mom. The
Speaker 4: mom goes over to hers spanging on the garage door.
Speaker 4: You'll let her, let my daughter out let me goes, oh,
Speaker 4: she's not here, and then as well, I can't find
Speaker 4: the lights. I'm trying to sleep, I can't find a key.
Speaker 4: Finally he fumbles the door open. The mother runs in
Speaker 4: and grabs the kid, and what she sees is the
Speaker 4: kid's hands are tied with green socks, her pants are
Speaker 4: pulled down below her bottom, and the faces come with tears,
Speaker 4: the kids sobbing. Well, of course she is furious. You know,
Speaker 4: my god, my kid, Well you're doing He takes off running.
Speaker 4: The two guys who are helping him look for a
Speaker 4: feather go chasing after him and cash him and aren't
Speaker 4: that plied to months to get him? She comes running over.
Speaker 4: When the cops arrive, she's there beating on his chest
Speaker 4: and screaming at him, while these two guys just sit
Speaker 4: in and watch. He doesn't do anything to protect himself
Speaker 4: from her. He's just standing there. Ytther stow it and
Speaker 4: things go down hill from there, both for him and
Speaker 4: for Feather. She's bad at me by the way.
Speaker 6: You took about Feather, and she is questioned lightly. She's
Speaker 6: only four years old, so she's questioned very sensitively by
Speaker 6: this detective Snyder. I believe Officer Snyder, and she basically
Speaker 6: communicates to him that he touched her, not put his
Speaker 6: hand down her pants, but touched her on the outside.
Speaker 6: And then, like you said, we said in the introduction,
Speaker 6: probably got to got to Richard Clark just before he
Speaker 6: did something much much worse. More so, he is charged.
Speaker 6: As you write in the book, he is charged, and
Speaker 6: what is he charged for?
Speaker 4: While this is something I want to back up that's
Speaker 4: been clarified you were reading at the beginning of the show,
Speaker 4: but I believe is promotional material for the book, probably
Speaker 4: off the back of it or something that sounds bigly familiar.
Speaker 4: But I no, I didn't, don't. The guy wrote that
Speaker 4: at the body of the text, basically his pedophiliac urges
Speaker 4: he does not qualify as a pedophile. A pedophile is
Speaker 4: someone who is only attracted sexually to people who have
Speaker 4: not gone through puberty pre pubescent. Richard Betrick Clark was
Speaker 4: not a pedophile. He was, however, with his term day
Speaker 4: situational child molester. Now situational child molesters are usually not
Speaker 4: sexually motivated, even if sex is part of the molestation.
Speaker 4: It's all about power, ironically, and this plays very importantly
Speaker 4: into the story and with what happens with roxand All,
Speaker 4: is that situational child molesters, beings that the issue is
Speaker 4: power and not sex, are actually incredibly easy to rehabilitate.
Speaker 4: Pedophiles a different story. The most pedophiles don't do anything
Speaker 4: wrong anyway, it's very small percentage of the rest. They
Speaker 4: keep it in fantasy land. But situational child molesters usually,
Speaker 4: once they understand what's going on with themselves, go oh,
Speaker 4: that's a stupid thing for me to do to deal
Speaker 4: with this, and that's it. People get the two of
Speaker 4: them confused, and in what we call the moral panics
Speaker 4: or whatever, they tend to assume that every child molester
Speaker 4: is the pedophiles of every pedophiles a child molester, when
Speaker 4: neither statement is true. Unfortunately for all of us and
Speaker 4: for Richard Matthew Clark, when he was arrested and sentenced
Speaker 4: on this situation with Tether, he received one year in
Speaker 4: the Stohomish County Jail, which is located in Everard, Washington,
Speaker 4: And putting someone in jail may protect us from further
Speaker 4: behavior while they're in jail for that year, but there's
Speaker 4: absolutely nothing to rectify whatever's going on in his head
Speaker 4: that's causing him to do that, And as we have
Speaker 4: our conversation, we'll find out more why he's so screwed up.
Speaker 4: But there was nothing, no treatment, no therapy, no talk
Speaker 4: with a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist or anything to
Speaker 4: deal with his underlying issues. So when he was released
Speaker 4: one year later, he was exactly the same as he
Speaker 4: was when he went in, except probably worse. I just
Speaker 4: want to kind of clear that up.
Speaker 6: You talk about thank you, You talk about too about rehability,
Speaker 6: and we have to talk about both sides of this
Speaker 6: incredible story. Is that right after this we talk about Feather,
Speaker 6: she had been molested by her own father, abused by
Speaker 6: her own father when she was two, so this other
Speaker 6: event at four sent her into a you know, real tailstorm.
Speaker 6: So she goes to live with a foster family. She
Speaker 6: lives with a foster family Julie Galo or Jalo, and
Speaker 6: received a lot of stability and structure in that home,
Speaker 6: but she still wasn't rehabilitated in any real given way,
Speaker 6: despite somebody caring for her. So during this period of
Speaker 6: time that he is in prison, but afterwards, what happens
Speaker 6: with Feather Raher.
Speaker 4: Well, what happens with Feather is when he gets out
Speaker 4: and this incident that we're going to about the Rocks
Speaker 4: that Doll takes place, and you know, the one of
Speaker 4: the prosecutors would like to show what to call it
Speaker 4: a common plan or scheme when they're building the prosecution case,
Speaker 4: they want to talk to her. She reportedly flips out
Speaker 4: and runs away fear factor and it And I said,
Speaker 4: now as an adult, she's mad at me for putting
Speaker 4: all this in the book. But I'm sorry. You know,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry if it bothered you, Feather, But it's an
Speaker 4: integral part of the story.
Speaker 6: What I was talking about when I was getting to
Speaker 6: is that she becomes a troubled team despite this structure
Speaker 6: in Julie's home, She's a significantly troubled teen and so
Speaker 6: she has this created an emotional, devastating emotional impact, like
Speaker 6: you say. And then seven years after that, there is
Speaker 6: Rock sand Doll in April eighth and April first pardon me,
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety five. Now you fast forward to Rock sand Doll,
Speaker 6: her living arrangement with her mother Gail and her husband
Speaker 6: Tim iffrig and tell us where Richard Clark is in
Speaker 6: terms of the neighborhood before we get into what happened
Speaker 6: just before that, and the relationship that Richard had with
Speaker 6: the family, with Tim and Gail, his own family, and
Speaker 6: just this little, small, little neighborhood he seemed to be
Speaker 6: involved with in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, as I mentioned, effort is not exactly it's
Speaker 4: part of a larger metropolitan area. It's his own identity.
Speaker 4: It's who had his ball town a very pleasant place
Speaker 4: to live, nice school districts, et cetera. When I almost
Speaker 4: have to put this in perspective, from the age of fourteen,
Speaker 4: Richard Matthew Clark never to by knowledge, had a day
Speaker 4: whether he wasn't either drunk or stoned. And if I
Speaker 4: were him, probably I would have been in the same way.
Speaker 4: Childhood was absolutely horrific, as was that of his brothers
Speaker 4: and sisters. Now you can say, well, gee, a lot
Speaker 4: of people have bad childhoods and don't do what he did,
Speaker 4: and that's absolutely true, but not everyone responds to horrific
Speaker 4: situations the same way. He was an extremely sensitive child,
Speaker 4: loved his mother, despised his father, who kept him powerless
Speaker 4: at all times. His father beat him mercilessly, forced him
Speaker 4: to eat a cigar, was surprised to kill him. His
Speaker 4: only refuge was his mother, who tragically was also an
Speaker 4: alcoholic because you know, sixty percent genetic factor there. And
Speaker 4: when his mother died in a tragic accident, all five
Speaker 4: kids were split up and sent to different places. He
Speaker 4: was sent to live with his aunt. Who is this
Speaker 4: Richard matt Ufuk's mother and or aunt whatever it is,
Speaker 4: life fate is to shady. There he goes, she takes
Speaker 4: the child in. He goes to live with her, and
Speaker 4: he is so traumatized by his mother's death that he
Speaker 4: cannot grieve. He can't even bring himself to cry. He's
Speaker 4: emostly disassociated in lockdown. Finally with her, he's comfortable enough
Speaker 4: to break down and cry and hold on to her
Speaker 4: for comfort, at which time, get this, she pushes him
Speaker 4: away and says, I can't be your mother, I already
Speaker 4: have children. And that's when Mom tell him would say,
Speaker 4: the walls came down all the way to help. From
Speaker 4: that moment until he went away prison forever, he never
Speaker 4: had a day that he didn't numb himself with alcohol
Speaker 4: and drugs. And it was never a day when he
Speaker 4: didn't feel completely powerless, abandoned and alone except for those
Speaker 4: few moments where he could have power over some situation.
Speaker 4: And he had become a friend was you know when
Speaker 4: he appeared to be a nice enough fellow. And as
Speaker 4: proof he wasn't a pedophile, he was having sex with
Speaker 4: Rock sand Doll's grandmother was actually close to his own
Speaker 4: age and these people and children young. Uh, so he
Speaker 4: was having an affair with the grandmother who was not
Speaker 4: really that ancient. Uh. And he was a sit around
Speaker 4: and uh, drink maybe and get hye buddy with with
Speaker 4: Tim Iffrit he's a friend of the family. Plus the
Speaker 4: fact that he's sleeping with the grandmother, and so he
Speaker 4: was kind to Roxanne, you know, uh in general, like
Speaker 4: groomyer or something, and so that was kind of a relationship.
Speaker 4: It kind of hung out there. The night of the incident,
Speaker 4: he was there reacting with Tim, and the mother took
Speaker 4: the grandmother into towns because she wanted to go into town,
Speaker 4: which wasn't all that far. Uh. And then Dan, I'm
Speaker 4: going to tell you something that I don't think he
Speaker 4: can think is in the book unless it's in the afterward.
Speaker 4: My comments is that Richard Matthew clark On my investigation,
Speaker 4: did absolutely everything possible to keep himself from doing what
Speaker 4: he did. He apparently could tell, like what someone could
Speaker 4: tell when he's going to have a seizure or something,
Speaker 4: he apparently could tell what he wanted to do the
Speaker 4: seven year old Roxandal, who already was in bed at home,
Speaker 4: and so he did everything he could to not go
Speaker 4: back alone. He even went to the grandmother who had
Speaker 4: just brought into town and essentially begged her to go
Speaker 4: back go back with him. He says, no, I just
Speaker 4: got here. That's what he does everything to find someone
Speaker 4: to go with him to keep him from doing it.
Speaker 4: He even goes out to the nearby Indian reservation. He
Speaker 4: picks up a friend of his and makes him to
Speaker 4: go with him back to the Dollart freak House. And
Speaker 4: I think, but he Jimmy says okay. However, Jimmy is
Speaker 4: drinking and by the time they get to the Dollar
Speaker 4: freg House, Jimmy has passed out cold and Matthew Clark
Speaker 4: is all by himself. And that's one of things go
Speaker 4: from bad to horrific.
Speaker 6: You take us to that night when you talk about
Speaker 6: Gail doll deciding at nine o'clock to go to the
Speaker 6: movie with their friend till or at ten o'clock to
Speaker 6: go to a movie till about twelve o'clock, which is
Speaker 6: commonplace for them. Next door neighbors Andy and Kim close proximity,
Speaker 6: and then Richard Clark right by there and hanging around
Speaker 6: a friend of Tim iffrig a friend of Gail. They
Speaker 6: had spoken to him earlier. He had a van that
Speaker 6: he drove. People didn't know if his past record with
Speaker 6: feather Ray here, did they.
Speaker 4: No, it wasn't something that was common knowledge. He had
Speaker 4: a buddy from before he went to jail. It was
Speaker 4: familiar with me by dope together and stuff. But it
Speaker 4: wasn't likely the local pariah, you know. I mean, like
Speaker 4: I said, he didn't get any help a it was
Speaker 4: you don't walk him over the county jail for a year.
Speaker 4: And this got out the same worse than it was
Speaker 4: when he went in. Ironically, I spoke at length to
Speaker 4: an expert on a young sexual molesters power motivated child molesters,
Speaker 4: and he looked over the case and he shook his
Speaker 4: head and said, if we could have got this kid
Speaker 4: into therapy, this never would have happened. If they would
Speaker 4: have spent a year working with him psychologically. Chances are
Speaker 4: Rock Sandol will still be alive instead of just putting
Speaker 4: him in a cell for year, quarantining the virus but
Speaker 4: not racing it.
Speaker 6: Well, you have you're at odds with what the the
Speaker 6: way the prosecution presented this case later at trial, and
Speaker 6: obviously there's a fair amount of theatrics and the tone
Speaker 6: of seriousness and maybe even both sides doing whatever they
Speaker 6: can to present their either client in a good way
Speaker 6: and in prosecution to present the client in a very
Speaker 6: very bad way.
Speaker 4: But you talked about yeah, go ahead dead, Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: no no.
Speaker 6: But what I'm what I'm saying is that what we
Speaker 6: got to get back to is the what you have
Speaker 6: in the book is also you're contending that different things
Speaker 6: happened at different times. And this was very interesting about
Speaker 6: this case, the defense, the prosecution, and then your version
Speaker 6: and your interpretation of this as well. Let's talk about
Speaker 6: though the April first itself March thirty first, nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 6: You talk about the mom, the younger brother or the
Speaker 6: brother and Roxanne watching Cinderella, a Disney movie. Later, Tim
Speaker 6: had worked all day. He was a hard working guy.
Speaker 6: There was talk about him passing out on the couch
Speaker 6: and then rich Right, So let's let's go into sort
Speaker 6: of the events you talk about him. He did everything
Speaker 6: in his power to avoid this altercation that he knew
Speaker 6: that would happen with Roxanne Doll. But the prosecution paints
Speaker 6: a completely different picture. So let's talk you about what
Speaker 6: they what they portray, Well, what.
Speaker 4: They portray is actually what happened when he gets there.
Speaker 4: My observation is based on what did he do in
Speaker 4: the intervening time or two. But he took the grandmother
Speaker 4: into town, and when he committed this horrific crime, he
Speaker 4: even went into the active and doing he shaved off
Speaker 4: his mustache and put his band up for sale. That's
Speaker 4: what that's I called it, called the age as if
Speaker 4: it never happened, and like trying to rewind the clock. Uh.
Speaker 4: I mean, he's really a sick guy.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 4: To call him evil or call him a monstrous, to
Speaker 4: dehumanize him as it he came from, you know, some
Speaker 4: other dimension. But one time he was someone's beloved little
Speaker 4: baby boy. Uh. And his his life, his soul is
Speaker 4: everything has been uh, you know, totally perverted. There's probably
Speaker 4: no helping him now. Of course he's beyond the beyond. Uh,
Speaker 4: but it's just so tragic though, the whole thing. Uh.
Speaker 4: He and uh Tim frigg Doll planned on going camping
Speaker 4: together the next day, along with some other folks, and
Speaker 4: he'd been over there, you don't, hanging out drinking coffee,
Speaker 4: smoking cigarettes. Two of them took the grandma into town. Uh.
Speaker 4: Tim goes to cook something to eat, falls asleep on
Speaker 4: the couch to house the smoke, and wife comes home,
Speaker 4: as you didn't kill him from making such a mess
Speaker 4: and sticking the house up. Uh you know, back you
Speaker 4: say he was a hard working guy, he was pretty tired.
Speaker 4: He knew he was gonna up at the mongardly hour
Speaker 4: of the morning to go camping with Richard Clark and
Speaker 4: these other people. And this is what's just so tragically ironic,
Speaker 4: as you know, where is the guy who you know
Speaker 4: stole our daughter. He's out camping with the father. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's just so twisted, you know. Yeah, he comes back
Speaker 4: with Jimmy passed out of Leveya and he takes the
Speaker 4: kid out the bedroom window and that's it for that
Speaker 4: poor child, violated, murdered, body dumped. Interesting in the book itself,
Speaker 4: there is a most horrifying photograph of little Rock Sands
Speaker 4: dead body, Yeah, partially decomposed. And so I say, how
Speaker 4: could you put such a horrifying, off putting, nightmare reducing
Speaker 4: photograph in your book? And that was the insistence of
Speaker 4: her parents. Wo Her parents wanted that horrifying picture of
Speaker 4: their daughter in the book. They provided the picture. They
Speaker 4: wanted people to know what was done to their daughter,
Speaker 4: which is entirely opposite of how most people are when
Speaker 4: I'm talking to them about a book, that they don't
Speaker 4: want people to see what happened to their they kid,
Speaker 4: you know, But in this particular situation, the parents wanted
Speaker 4: that everything know everything showed them you about.
Speaker 6: Sorry, go ahead, no, no, I'm lot thought that anyway,
Speaker 6: Go ahead. You were talking about the situational molester that
Speaker 6: heeds not a pedophile, but still for people not so
Speaker 6: concerned with the terminology. Right at this point, we have
Speaker 6: to talk about what they did find when they finally
Speaker 6: found her, and this was a week later, there was
Speaker 6: a massive search. You say, this was a huge search
Speaker 6: for this young girl, a seven year old girl. Frantic parents.
Speaker 6: You do add, as well, there's just something that really
Speaker 6: was a real monkey in this case. Monkey wrench in
Speaker 6: this case, in that when they discovered that Roxanne is
Speaker 6: gone in the morning, just after the men have gone camping,
Speaker 6: and when the little boy little brother advises the mother
Speaker 6: that Roxy's not here, that she claims to the police
Speaker 6: that come to question her that when she came back
Speaker 6: from the movies, she checked on her daughter and saw
Speaker 6: her in bed at just after twelve. Well, tell us
Speaker 6: what proceeds with Richard Clark and the questioning of the
Speaker 6: parents and what unfolds quickly as to whom I be
Speaker 6: the perpetrator here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it does get iffy, uh uh, because they also
Speaker 4: talked to the people next door, and uh, you know
Speaker 4: that they figure that, uh you know, he's gone into
Speaker 4: into town, which is not that far away because you
Speaker 4: knowing everything that is fairly close except for the Indian reservation,
Speaker 4: and uh, they it doesn't.
Speaker 6: Make any sense.
Speaker 4: She peaked in and she thought she saw Roxy. But
Speaker 4: then again, you know, you peek into the room and
Speaker 4: you see the bundle of sheets, and you know, you
Speaker 4: just make an assumption you don't see, you know, the
Speaker 4: covers pulled back of the bed empty, and so she
Speaker 4: was pretty sure that she'd she'd seen that. Now the
Speaker 4: the Uh, prosecution, your defense makes a big deal out
Speaker 4: of the timeline of all this, which I thought was
Speaker 4: uh problematic. Uh. You know, they tried to show over
Speaker 4: the gaps base of what she saw, the kid here
Speaker 4: couldn't have been him. It was a defensive post, if
Speaker 4: I remember correctly. It was. I thought was a peculiar
Speaker 4: tack to take. But one thing about writing through crime books,
Speaker 4: as you well know, is when you're looking at a
Speaker 4: situation with fresh eyes and you're not in the middle
Speaker 4: of it, you will notice things that other people don't notice,
Speaker 4: or see things that other people don't see. And I
Speaker 4: think that was the situation this case. I would have
Speaker 4: gone if I had been a defense attorney. H I
Speaker 4: guess you guy, I guess you do with you you
Speaker 4: try to show that he couldn't have done it, that
Speaker 4: he wasn't there at the timeline is so fit well
Speaker 4: they did. It was just a peculiar tack to take.
Speaker 4: They Uh so it didn't go for mitigation, you know,
Speaker 4: at the end of things. But I mean, the whole
Speaker 4: thing is so horrifyingly tragic. There is not a pleasant
Speaker 4: note in this entire story. Uh, in anybody's life. It's
Speaker 4: uh was one reason I was compelled to write this
Speaker 4: story is not because it was horrific and sensational, but
Speaker 4: because of the multi levels of multi generational tragedy involved.
Speaker 4: It's just so that gives the word tragic. But I
Speaker 4: can't think he goes a writer. I can't seem to
Speaker 4: find a different word of Richard Matthews Clark's life was horrific, tragic,
Speaker 4: emotionally shut down and gets worse every day. This horrible
Speaker 4: thing perpetrated on the dull, effering family is something that
Speaker 4: no one is ever going to totally recover from. You
Speaker 4: can't recover from the loss of your own child easily
Speaker 4: in any way ever, and so that that pain is
Speaker 4: always with you and whatever people you know can take
Speaker 4: hope in or whatever, but it still has to cross
Speaker 4: the mind of that poor child what she had to
Speaker 4: endure at the hands of the man that she thought
Speaker 4: was a family friend. All I'm seven years of age.
Speaker 4: And if it was just the story of hey, this
Speaker 4: guy can mothers a little girl and finally catch him
Speaker 4: a center to prison, that's one thing, But then that's
Speaker 4: kind of like porno, you know, which can be entertaining,
Speaker 4: but it does exactly have a you know, an ethical
Speaker 4: boil after the lesson anywhere along the line an coore
Speaker 4: to get to is my mentor. Jack Olsen told me
Speaker 4: there is any true crime story that doesn't get into
Speaker 4: the why and the how, not how I feel what
Speaker 4: time did he show up? But what are the factors
Speaker 4: that led to this situation? How can we learn from this?
Speaker 4: And it's always been my goal. I mentioned this in
Speaker 4: virtually every true clime book that I write. Is my
Speaker 4: purpose is to elevate the victim's death to the level
Speaker 4: of sacrifice that something in their giving it a live
Speaker 4: teaches us something to either prevent it from happening again,
Speaker 4: to alert people, how to keep it from happy to them,
Speaker 4: or what we need to do to make changes in
Speaker 4: how we deal with situations to get positive results rather
Speaker 4: than more of the same. Now I know you're in
Speaker 4: a different country, a strange forward land called Canada, which
Speaker 4: I have visited on occasion. In the United States worldwide,
Speaker 4: the United States is famed for many things. One of
Speaker 4: them that we in these states are famed for is
Speaker 4: continually doing what doesn't work and knowing it doesn't work,
Speaker 4: but it's the most popular way of doing it, so
Speaker 4: we continue to do what doesn't work, which is very strange.
Speaker 4: It is probably some ser national psychological disorder. But this
Speaker 4: is so well known worldwide by researchers as scientists, psychologists,
Speaker 4: social scientists. The entire articles about it on how America
Speaker 4: chooses to do over and over again what has been
Speaker 4: proven to be totally ineffective, because that's what's popular. For
Speaker 4: some reason in America, we seem to enjoy keeping people
Speaker 4: at a certain degree of lack of information and lack
Speaker 4: of active information education, so they keep doing things at
Speaker 4: art of their own best interest. Usually that's to the
Speaker 4: benefit of someone else. Now, I could give you a
Speaker 4: contemporary example if you'd like, There was a maybe if
Speaker 4: you don't like them, go ahead and do it anyway.
Speaker 4: There was a here in California, where I live, for example,
Speaker 4: eighty four percent of the population receives or higher than that,
Speaker 4: receives their news from television, which is a very poor
Speaker 4: way to receive news, but that's where they get it anyway.
Speaker 4: Excuse me. I actually the percentage was higher than that,
Speaker 4: but it was eighty four percent of people interviewed believed
Speaker 4: that youth crime in California was on the rise and
Speaker 4: had been on the right. She liked wherever. In truth,
Speaker 4: youth crime in California and nationwide at the time they
Speaker 4: study was at a thirty year low and been declining
Speaker 4: every year for thirty years. And yet based on what
Speaker 4: politicians would say running for office, the way things were
Speaker 4: handled in the news is you thought that youth crime
Speaker 4: gain crime, everything was at an all time high, and
Speaker 4: people would vote accordingly, why we got to get tough
Speaker 4: on crime, We're going to take back our neighborhoods, when
Speaker 4: in reality, youth adolescents teenagers were quire more likely to
Speaker 4: be victims of a crime than perpetrators of one. So
Speaker 4: the disconnect between reality and what was presented was striking,
Speaker 4: extremely striking. Now it doesn't take much work or effort
Speaker 4: to find out what the truth of the situation is
Speaker 4: if you want to do a little bit of research,
Speaker 4: but most people don't. They get their news from radio,
Speaker 4: TV and if it's complete nonsense and untrue. It's have
Speaker 4: been found that most of the journalists won't raise thro
Speaker 4: a hand and six shoes me a senator what's his name?
Speaker 4: But will you just said? Isn't true? Ted Coomple. At
Speaker 4: least that ABC would let the Senator whatever give some
Speaker 4: long bs answers. He goes, Now that's absolutely fascinating, Senator.
Speaker 4: But my question was, and get back to the point.
Speaker 4: So it's America has this longstanding problem of doing what
Speaker 4: doesn't work in providing false information about it. Until that changes,
Speaker 4: I have no idea what's going to be. Not much
Speaker 4: is going to improve. Obviously, Now I know I got
Speaker 4: off on a dad's a Pasky tangent, but I forgot
Speaker 4: I'm the title to do.
Speaker 6: So we have to get back to the way this
Speaker 6: prosecution frames us till and the way readers are going
Speaker 6: to see this as well, that this this friend of
Speaker 6: the family uses this opportunity to be able to abduct
Speaker 6: this child right under the noses of the family and
Speaker 6: friends and her own family, and then have the audacity
Speaker 6: and the nerve and this psychopathic ability to be able
Speaker 6: to go camping with Yeah, and then again they play
Speaker 6: the role. But you talk about right away Gail Doll,
Speaker 6: who does she think? Who do other people think? Is
Speaker 6: the likely they don't have the body?
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Speaker 2: No, we're not necessarily dally voidhevery if I lost the
Speaker 2: terms conditions eighteen plus, you think it's him?
Speaker 4: Why? Right? Kind of creepy. Maybe they maybe these that
Speaker 4: we don't Uh, there's something vibratory about him. Uh. They
Speaker 4: gotta figure if anyone you know who would fit that
Speaker 4: uh fit that profile. Any of your parents can do
Speaker 4: imagine doing something they're horrific, and they could always say, well,
Speaker 4: the only one I can think of is Richie Mathew Clark.
Speaker 6: You also talk about that right away. Police are on
Speaker 6: this and and before they get the forensic evidence back there,
Speaker 6: they're they've got partial foot of fingerprints, they have DNA,
Speaker 6: they have fingerprints on the window. Uh, they have the
Speaker 6: sock a pardon me, they don't have that yet.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: They have some forensic evidence to go by, and they
Speaker 6: have DNA samples, and so while they're doing that, you
Speaker 6: also have another incredible scene where everybody's searching for the
Speaker 6: for the child to no avail, and then two people
Speaker 6: do find rock Sand's body.
Speaker 4: That is so horrifying you might have to refresh my
Speaker 4: memory on that. It has been so long and it's
Speaker 4: so unpleasant. A scene.
Speaker 6: Too little, my god, little young girls are are playing
Speaker 6: in the area and uh.
Speaker 4: And that's when they see something that catches her eye,
Speaker 4: catches their attention, uh, kind of like off there in
Speaker 4: the side by the bushes or whatever, and they go
Speaker 4: take a look. And it doesn't even look real. I
Speaker 4: don't think to live at first, because it's not gonna
Speaker 4: look like a person because she's been there, you know,
Speaker 4: for a while, and it's what is that, you know.
Speaker 4: And when they come back and tell we have come
Speaker 4: see what we saw, it is god, I mean, it
Speaker 4: is horrified. I don't know if you've ever had the
Speaker 4: displeasure of fighting a dead body. He's a dead body
Speaker 4: of a child or measure. These kids fighting the partially
Speaker 4: decomposed body of someone like their old age or younger.
Speaker 4: It is absolutely horrific. And there was boat chilling and
Speaker 4: that's what the kids found. If you see the picture
Speaker 4: in the book at the time, they found a child.
Speaker 4: That's something though, hual he wants to see little only kid.
Speaker 4: I don't imagine those kids are probably so traumatized by it.
Speaker 4: And uh and of course Richard back to the clock,
Speaker 4: was a suspect from a kind of the get go,
Speaker 4: because they keep track of these kind of offenders. He
Speaker 4: had just butther than that long since he had been
Speaker 4: released from Stonholmage County Jail for his h you know,
Speaker 4: his misbehavior earlier a few years earlier, and he was
Speaker 4: you know, it's a small enough town that you see
Speaker 4: people around he was both messed up, stone drunk efficence.
Speaker 4: He was fourteen. I don't think he'd had a day
Speaker 4: of sobriety in his life. He was always numb, numbed
Speaker 4: to whatever feelings he would have.
Speaker 6: You have that the Roxanne's body is found, and so
Speaker 6: then of course then there's going to be an autopsy,
Speaker 6: and there's going to be forensic and they're going to
Speaker 6: process the scene for any evidence that they can find.
Speaker 6: And what they do find in common is a sock again,
Speaker 6: a sock to bind and other socks. But at the
Speaker 6: same time there's forensics, as I mentioned in the van,
Speaker 6: and then then there are witnesses to come forward to
Speaker 6: say they smelled something strange or saw some bloodstains, including
Speaker 6: cooperation from various people, but especially Tony and George Clark
Speaker 6: is not really his biological father, but anyway those people
Speaker 6: in his life, and so they cooperated with the police
Speaker 6: and had some questions for Richard Clark. What did they
Speaker 6: ask you about that evening?
Speaker 4: Was where you been? What do you what are you doing?
Speaker 4: You know, he talks about taking grandpa. I was you
Speaker 4: call her grandma? It was the same age, it wasn't
Speaker 4: that acient, uh, into town so she could do some
Speaker 4: do some intense drinking and him going up to the
Speaker 4: reservation seeing Jimmy, Now he was his good buddy who
Speaker 4: was drunk enough to pass out. Uh. And this is
Speaker 4: I gues when the when the defense tries to play
Speaker 4: off of this whole timeline that it wasn't him, It
Speaker 4: could have been somebody else was sing by the loss
Speaker 4: cause to me for the get go uh. And of
Speaker 4: course the prosecution bringing in the uh feather here episode
Speaker 4: from years earlier to try to show a common plan
Speaker 4: or a scheme, which didn't work all that well either,
Speaker 4: as we can get to later. But it was one
Speaker 4: of those situations where you know, what kind of guy
Speaker 4: there is a guy who kid dams, rapes and murders
Speaker 4: your daughter that helps you go look for I mean,
Speaker 4: it's just so bizarre that he's outgoing camping with the
Speaker 4: father at the time that the mother and everyone else
Speaker 4: is frantically looking for the missing child. That is so strange.
Speaker 4: It's so bizarre. It's almost like he's trying to create
Speaker 4: this alternate universe where it never happened, where they're going
Speaker 4: to come back from camping and Rockxan's going to be
Speaker 4: alive and well, and he didn't do it. They mentioned
Speaker 4: the act of the fantasy active undoing it. You know,
Speaker 4: it's almost with a desperation if I act like it
Speaker 4: never happened, it never happened.
Speaker 6: Incredible you talk about and introduced to Detective Herndon and
Speaker 6: he asks Clark to take a polygraph, and there's all
Speaker 6: kinds of and this is very common, but even though
Speaker 6: it's in admissible in court, police like to get people
Speaker 6: to cooperate and take polygraphs to see the determined.
Speaker 4: So they.
Speaker 6: Being deceptive. Uh huh, he's being deceptive. But so how
Speaker 6: do they approach How does Herndon approach Clark? What's his
Speaker 6: approach in dealing with him, in questioning him? How does
Speaker 6: he do that?
Speaker 4: Well, I'll talk little about Lloyd Herndon. I really like Lloyd,
Speaker 4: a super nice guy. It was very cooperative with me,
Speaker 4: and he can have you over our house and meet
Speaker 4: his buddies and all this stuff. During the course of this,
Speaker 4: it was very strange. He was a patrol cop, you know,
Speaker 4: and he wanted to be detective. He wants up being
Speaker 4: the youngest head of them was an effort in the
Speaker 4: history of the city due to a retirement by somebody
Speaker 4: else about these shifts and personnel. All of a sudden,
Speaker 4: this young man who never wanted to be a cop
Speaker 4: in the first place. Interestingly, now, who didn't like the police,
Speaker 4: who was a social worker, who was convinced to join
Speaker 4: the police because they had a new program of community
Speaker 4: policing and they wanted sensitive, liberal, community minded people to
Speaker 4: take those positions as police officers and deal in a
Speaker 4: very friendly way with the public. Well, that program lasted
Speaker 4: about a year or two, and bang, it's no longer funded.
Speaker 4: And now he's a regular compound patrol being a police officer,
Speaker 4: and then he winds up being head of detectors for
Speaker 4: a minute and a half. By the time this whole
Speaker 4: thing goes to court, Herndon is no longer a detective.
Speaker 4: He's back doing patrol. He's the guy who cracks the case,
Speaker 4: who solves the case, the bad guy. And he told me,
Speaker 4: he says, you know why I got a bulletproof vest.
Speaker 4: To the reason, cops, that the bulletproof est. The front
Speaker 4: is to protect you from the perpetrators, the crooks on
Speaker 4: the street. The back is to protect you from the
Speaker 4: other police officers. So there was the problem there, internal
Speaker 4: issues that did play on him psychologically to a great extreme.
Speaker 4: And cops are under more pressure than an astronaut anyway.
Speaker 4: It's a dangerous job, ultimately boring and terrifying, and it
Speaker 4: played out rather severely in White's case. I believe he
Speaker 4: wanted to get out of there. He wanted to go
Speaker 4: to Iraq actually and train the Iraqi police, for which
Speaker 4: he would be paid at kings ransom, but he couldn't
Speaker 4: get permission from They were pleased to do so. But
Speaker 4: Lloyd heard it at the time that this was taking place,
Speaker 4: and I think it's because of his background in community
Speaker 4: service and as a social worker allowed him to establish
Speaker 4: a kind of a bond or sense of trust with
Speaker 4: people that in this case, as you know, that work
Speaker 4: very well in dealing with with with everyone involved, including
Speaker 4: Richard Matthew Clark. And it wasn't like an attack where
Speaker 4: Clark's going to it was already closed off emotionally, he's
Speaker 4: going to close off even more, but rather using reflective
Speaker 4: listening and empathy made himself less threatening to Richard. My
Speaker 4: memory serves me well.
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Speaker 6: Terms and conditions apply. When we last spoke, brol I
Speaker 6: mentioned that there was an unique ruse used by this
Speaker 6: agent Van Deerberry to try to do something and fool
Speaker 6: Richard Clark. What was that attempt and how successfull he was?
Speaker 4: Was he with it? The same thing? You know, you're
Speaker 4: right true Grime books was written some time ago. I
Speaker 4: mean sometimes they tend to meld together. Is this a
Speaker 4: situation where they say, we have your counselor for you?
Speaker 4: For bringing your counselor in? Absolutely? Yeah? Oh good, he
Speaker 4: was the right book. Yeah, this is really weird how
Speaker 4: they thought they could get away with this when you're
Speaker 4: entitled to an attorney. Your teers were crying to get
Speaker 4: to have an attorney. They tell him, well, because he
Speaker 4: wasn't attorney, said well, your counselor is here. He thinks
Speaker 4: supposed to be legal counselor. No, it's a cop. It's
Speaker 4: another detective pretending to like he's his lawyer. Now that's
Speaker 4: got to be crooked as hell. Oh and I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean they tried to get away with that, but
Speaker 4: that that was I've never heard of anyone pulling that
Speaker 4: kind of stunt before. And I think I mentioned to
Speaker 4: one of the detectives involved, perhaps it was Lloyd, but
Speaker 4: I thought that was really weird, and he said, yeah, well,
Speaker 4: they thought we'd give it a shot.
Speaker 6: Well, the only thing I could see was that they
Speaker 6: felt it was worth it given that they still didn't
Speaker 6: know where Roxandal was. When when they're questioning him, they
Speaker 6: still don't know where she is. So if they think, hey, listen,
Speaker 6: this is a council, this is your lawyer, that he
Speaker 6: might give up the information. So that's the only I mean,
Speaker 6: obviously they're going to have problems. It's going to be
Speaker 6: beyond problematic in court at trial if they use that.
Speaker 6: So there only has to be one good reason to
Speaker 6: be able to do this, and this seem to justify that.
Speaker 6: Now with him and we talk about this trial, this
Speaker 6: obviously becomes a death penalty case and very very interesting
Speaker 6: because of your incredible coverage of all of it. All
Speaker 6: of the once you get to the when someone's trying
Speaker 6: to state it's trying to take a perpetrator's life, then
Speaker 6: we hear the background story, we hear of the childhood,
Speaker 6: and the witnesses come forward to support that in the
Speaker 6: attempt to try to save this person's life. And then
Speaker 6: counsel that is dedicated and talented and successful at getting
Speaker 6: people not to be put to death are involved in
Speaker 6: this case. So tell us what sets up what characterizes
Speaker 6: this trial you talk about Judge Thorpe, tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about the beginning of this trial and the
Speaker 6: sort of scenario that surrounds it media and.
Speaker 4: Well, the death penalty and like war, self defense is
Speaker 4: the only will things that actually has is objective to
Speaker 4: the taking of a life. Wars about taking land. Self
Speaker 4: defense is about preserving one of them's life. The death
Speaker 4: penalty has its greatest effects on the person to be executed, obviously,
Speaker 4: but it has an effect on other people too. And
Speaker 4: this is what is brought up when they get into
Speaker 4: the facts mitigating this crime. This was a horrifying crime,
Speaker 4: and that you have when you get to the sentencing
Speaker 4: phase and you mentioned to going to the death penalty,
Speaker 4: that this is something that has been Anything that mitigates
Speaker 4: the severity of the crime will not. They can mitigate
Speaker 4: the bank that rocks have dolls dead. And you don't
Speaker 4: have any situation where uh is that Clark doesn't pull
Speaker 4: one of these tea I don't remember what I did.
Speaker 4: I've blocked out. Uh. He doesn't ever to say anything
Speaker 4: about that. It's I mean it's just it's blatant that
Speaker 4: he did it. There is no rational reason why except
Speaker 4: for this incredible feeling of powerlessness that he has. Uh.
Speaker 4: This is when they have to bring up what was
Speaker 4: his life like, why should we have any mercy at all?
Speaker 4: And as they said, they're not efficient mitigating circumstances to
Speaker 4: avoid the sentence of life in prison without the possibility
Speaker 4: of parole, there are sufficient mitigating circumstances. They decided to
Speaker 4: avoid the sentence of death, although not at first, but
Speaker 4: they felt that if there was a sentence that he deserved,
Speaker 4: it would be life in prison. And excuse me, uh,
Speaker 4: but that's when they bring up the whole situation of
Speaker 4: how absolutely horrific his own life was. And of course
Speaker 4: we get that whole issuita well, gee, not everybody who
Speaker 4: has a bad childhood turns out like him, but not
Speaker 4: everybody's the same. I think his a brother took that
Speaker 4: feel like, well, I'm not a child molester and I
Speaker 4: had the same child as he did. Well, no, you didn't.
Speaker 4: You had your childhood, you had his, he had his,
Speaker 4: And they weren't the same. Even though the physical events
Speaker 4: surrounding them were the same. They were different people. With
Speaker 4: different responses, and they say his father was cruel beyond
Speaker 4: human comprehension to all the kids, especially him, and it
Speaker 4: was NonStop pain and misery. His only comfort was his mother,
Speaker 4: who died in a tragic the car accident, drunk as usual,
Speaker 4: and all the kids were split up and sent in
Speaker 4: different directions. And from that moment, as I mentioned, when
Speaker 4: he broke down and cried because it was pre screened
Speaker 4: for the first time and pushed away, that's when the
Speaker 4: wall came down, and he was numb and powerless and
Speaker 4: mostly deprived and depressed and everything else for the rest
Speaker 4: of his life. And by the time he was in prison,
Speaker 4: there was watching some TV show and the woman's being
Speaker 4: and after chased or strangle or killed in these yellow
Speaker 4: ale raper first you know, I mean it was totally gone,
Speaker 4: you know Bentley's I would say, and emotionally by the
Speaker 4: time all this was over with, or even before, but
Speaker 4: that became a big issue. In fact, there was a
Speaker 4: they all had to go back to court again a
Speaker 4: few years later when again there was another dispute over
Speaker 4: his sentencing. It gets more complex than you and I
Speaker 4: can handle on what takes place with the they had
Speaker 4: to do this mitigation and sentencing part of the trial
Speaker 4: more than twice. It turns out I thought it was twice.
Speaker 4: They had to do it like three times because there
Speaker 4: was always something wrong with it somewhere, sometimes some illegalities
Speaker 4: done and people complaining, oh, that's some loophole in the law.
Speaker 4: There are no such things, I believe as loopholes in
Speaker 4: the law. There was simply the law, and if don't
Speaker 4: like it, that's it. Yeah. So whether there's the law
Speaker 4: is a certain way and things weren't done right, or
Speaker 4: he was denied certain things, or certain things transpired where
Speaker 4: we all had to go back to court a few
Speaker 4: years later and go through the sentencing all over again.
Speaker 4: And that's why he's still in prisoner of this day
Speaker 4: and not executed, although the you know, they could have
Speaker 4: executed it at the time, but they didn't.
Speaker 6: What's the most interesting thing to me and outrageous to me,
Speaker 6: is that again that any talk of rehabilitation of a
Speaker 6: perpetrator before or after, or we could have done this,
Speaker 6: or we could have done that, or we should have
Speaker 6: done this. And he had a horrible upbringing. We still
Speaker 6: go back to feather Ray here, four years old, abused
Speaker 6: by your own father, at two, and again the influence
Speaker 6: of alcohol and drugs and alcohol specifically and people thinking
Speaker 6: while they're pregnant, and that devastation, generational devastation. And then
Speaker 6: this girl has to live with poster parents and then
Speaker 6: incredible stuff that you have in a book where she
Speaker 6: begs these people. Basically when she gets her notice, she
Speaker 6: gets this incredible notice from the prosecutor dorsh and he says, listen,
Speaker 6: I got some questions for you, like, how did it feel,
Speaker 6: what did it feel like, what did he touch your
Speaker 6: body with? What did he say, did he do anything?
Speaker 6: Did he touch his body afterwards?
Speaker 4: What did he say?
Speaker 6: Did he threaten you? So she has a list of
Speaker 6: all these questions and she's never recovered. You talk about
Speaker 6: him never recovering. She never recovered. And then this sets
Speaker 6: her into a panic. They talk about that. The psychologist
Speaker 6: or pardon me or pediatrician calls the prosecutor and says, listen,
Speaker 6: this is having an incredibly negative effect on this woman.
Speaker 6: Impact on this woman. Do you think she might not
Speaker 6: be able to testify? And yet this information, and given
Speaker 6: all the information that they did have, the DNA, the fingerprints,
Speaker 6: all the circumstantial I guess evidence, they put together to
Speaker 6: point in the direction all this misstatements and lies that
Speaker 6: Richard Clark did, the alibis that never really worked out.
Speaker 6: They didn't really have much at trial at all. He
Speaker 6: really didn't have much of a defense. He was pretty well,
Speaker 6: he did very very very guilty, and yet they wanted
Speaker 6: this Feather Ray here, who had never recovered from her.
Speaker 4: Cruel. It does seem cruel, doesn't it? Then? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: it is cruel. And the reason is they were going
Speaker 4: for this thing that I have seen so many prostitutors
Speaker 4: go for that doesn't work out. It is to show
Speaker 4: that this is part of a common plan or scheme,
Speaker 4: as if it were. It all happened the same day
Speaker 4: and it doesn't work. It's like a you know, throw
Speaker 4: away everything including the kitchen sink at the guy. And
Speaker 4: let's say it's a common planter scheme because seven years
Speaker 4: earlier he did this to poor Feather and then trying
Speaker 4: to get that kid up there on the stand. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, locking a four year old girl in garage,
Speaker 4: stuffing and stalking her mouth and tying her up is
Speaker 4: against the law and ever Washington and as that probably
Speaker 4: everywhere else too. He was charged with a lawful imprisonment.
Speaker 4: They couldn't get him on child molestation because he hadn't
Speaker 4: molisted her at the top, right, and the whole thing.
Speaker 4: A lot of the effect on her, as you say,
Speaker 4: was his lifelong. I mean, she's still as upset, but
Speaker 4: she's upset at me for mentioning it. But I thought
Speaker 4: it was important and everything was she His quote is
Speaker 4: taken directly from transcripts of her at the time. I
Speaker 4: didn't want to get hold of her and have her
Speaker 4: go through it again by me asking her the same questions.
Speaker 4: So what I undertook is I thought as a way
Speaker 4: of doing it without her having to relive it once again,
Speaker 4: was far better than calling her up on the phone saying, hey,
Speaker 4: you want to talk about it again? You know I
Speaker 4: wanted I have to do but that she says, well,
Speaker 4: I should have, but well I was trying to be kind.
Speaker 4: But Settle hunted forever, and y you know, I've I've
Speaker 4: known other people in these situations, like Sue, the oldest
Speaker 4: daughter in the web family from my book Headshot, where
Speaker 4: it was multi generational incests. Almostly in the family either
Speaker 4: married a child molester or could have been a child molester,
Speaker 4: or whatever, and the oldest sister totally turned her life
Speaker 4: around and became a counselor for people who suffered from
Speaker 4: the same types of things that she went through and says,
Speaker 4: you've got to own your own life. You can't run
Speaker 4: from it. Then what can you take from that to
Speaker 4: use to help other people? But I really admire your attitude,
Speaker 4: and she helped make meat deal with the book, and
Speaker 4: I think it's the same way in all these situations.
Speaker 4: If we have any purpose being here and trying to
Speaker 4: make a little better place that I working before we
Speaker 4: landed on it, you have to take whatever pain you
Speaker 4: went through and see how could you use that to
Speaker 4: mitigate the pain of others. And I've seen people do that,
Speaker 4: and I think this was incredibly admirable. But maybe in
Speaker 4: a way that it has made a contribution by being
Speaker 4: in the book, you can see I didn't make it
Speaker 4: go through the pain of living it again.
Speaker 6: You talk about the death penalty too, and it's problematic
Speaker 6: because when you talk about the separate phases of the trial,
Speaker 6: then there's a sentencing phase, and then they try to
Speaker 6: introduce this common scheme or theme, common plan, and it
Speaker 6: doesn't work because it's overturned and appeal. And that's I
Speaker 6: get frustrated in that the death penalty is a political
Speaker 6: pursuit on both sides. It seems both prosecutor and defense
Speaker 6: have their agendas and it's a strong one and they're
Speaker 6: you know, formidable foes against each other. But then there's
Speaker 6: the appeal courts and then it depends on again politics
Speaker 6: a lot of time in those cases as well. But
Speaker 6: again they're always trying to drag you know, Gail Doll
Speaker 6: and Tim iffrig and family members and people that were affected,
Speaker 6: and we're you know, right away, Gail Doll is accused.
Speaker 6: That's the police technique is to accuse people immediately to
Speaker 6: see their response. And regardless of being sensitive to the situation,
Speaker 6: a seven year old is murdered, kidnapped right under their
Speaker 6: nose and still missing. And yet this is what gets
Speaker 6: me is that these things just and I mentioned it
Speaker 6: not so long ago, again another frustrating case of delay.
Speaker 6: Justice delayed.
Speaker 4: To no avail.
Speaker 6: Really, I mean, I can't see the benefit of this
Speaker 6: given the tool of it.
Speaker 4: Really no. And you know, as I was total, I've
Speaker 4: had very limited experience and actually being defended, and they
Speaker 4: are choosed or I'm doing except maybe a traffic ticket,
Speaker 4: and I've had numerousy turney tell me it's not None
Speaker 4: of this is about truth and justice. It's all about winning.
Speaker 4: And if you're innocent and get sent to prison that
Speaker 4: they don't care. That's not the idea. It's not the
Speaker 4: idea to find the truth. The idea is to win
Speaker 4: the case. And I know there have been some horrific
Speaker 4: examples of that. Sometimes they're rectified, sometimes they're not. We
Speaker 4: have that want in Texas where the father was trying
Speaker 4: to save his kids from a house fire and he
Speaker 4: was charged with trying to kill them in the house fire.
Speaker 4: When he was dragging truth he was trying to save them,
Speaker 4: It wasn't totally made clear by investigators that yes, he
Speaker 4: had nothing to do with stilling the fire, Yes he
Speaker 4: was trying to save his children until after he'd been
Speaker 4: execute it. Uh, you know what are you doing? That
Speaker 4: situation's then your candidate. He's gone, the kids is on
Speaker 4: he was murdered for they were executed for killing his kids,
Speaker 4: which he didn't do. He's trying to save him. It
Speaker 4: just gets bizarre, or say worse. The case of someone
Speaker 4: such as Geronimo Pratt here in LA who was framed
Speaker 4: for murder by the FBI and the LA Prosecutor's office
Speaker 4: has spent twenties five twenty seven years in prison before
Speaker 4: they let him out and the FBI wrote him a check. Yes,
Speaker 4: we framed you. Here's a check for a certain number
Speaker 4: of millions of dollars. Sorry for the inconvenience. Uh, you
Speaker 4: know what you know, and people I don't know that
Speaker 4: would imagine it's probably similar in Canada. Is that citizens
Speaker 4: are remarkably naive as to the degree of corruption and
Speaker 4: duplicity within politics and the legal system. It is, I mean,
Speaker 4: is far more shocking than anyone dares to contemplate. And
Speaker 4: it's been my great pleasure to work with some wonderful
Speaker 4: homicide detectives and some wonderful law enforcement personnel in the
Speaker 4: writing of my books. That does not alter the fact
Speaker 4: that the culture in which it exists is incredibly corrupt
Speaker 4: and divisive from whatever angle is viewed. I I pity
Speaker 4: the fellow or a woman who becomes with a good
Speaker 4: heart and a clear conscience and the best intentions to
Speaker 4: serve their fellow citizens, finds themselves in the situation of
Speaker 4: having what they're living and what they're experiencing being a
Speaker 4: complete odds with the oath they took and the intentions
Speaker 4: they hold of their mind in their heart. I think
Speaker 4: that would be devastating. I hat Deborah Golfier on my
Speaker 4: should she put on her show with her story about
Speaker 4: being the first woman in the Las Vegas Police Department
Speaker 4: and the hell he went through. Tragic and everything that
Speaker 4: was in the oath that she took as a police
Speaker 4: officer was violated twenty four to seven and it broke
Speaker 4: her heart, brought her to Jesus, as she said, that
Speaker 4: had to be severe. So it's a rough one. I mean,
Speaker 4: I admire people who could go into the law enforcement
Speaker 4: or the legal profession and maintain their ethics in the
Speaker 4: face of ability that surrounds them.
Speaker 6: Let's get back to another dramatic part of the book
Speaker 6: is that at the trial, after this long sentencing, all
Speaker 6: this phase where the death penalty is announced, he is convicted.
Speaker 6: The judge asks him if he has anything to say,
Speaker 6: and he says he says, yes, I do. I have
Speaker 6: sympathy for the seven year old girl what happened to her,
Speaker 6: But for the e Fric family, they are the murderers.
Speaker 6: And you said there was a gosp of disbelief in
Speaker 6: the courtroom, and you say it was quite interesting too.
Speaker 6: Tim was outraged and he left the court room. What
Speaker 6: did Tim have with him?
Speaker 4: He was the guy, he was a little Yeah, he
Speaker 4: was gonna he was gonna murder the guy. Uh not
Speaker 4: why thinking on Tim's part, Uh, but that that was
Speaker 4: his plan, that they were going to give him death.
Speaker 4: He was going to give it to him. And how
Speaker 4: he got got it in there, I don't know. It's
Speaker 4: pretty crafty, but that was that was his plan. I
Speaker 4: mean I couldn't understand it, uh, because someone had had
Speaker 4: raped and murdered my daughter. God knows, I wouldn't be
Speaker 4: thinking straight either. You can imagine if he had all
Speaker 4: often attacked Clark with a knife stabbed him to death,
Speaker 4: then Iffrey would be in the same legal situation pretty
Speaker 4: much as bisheard Bet to Clark. So, I mean, the
Speaker 4: whole thing is just so twisted. Uh And so, like
Speaker 4: I said, it's just multi layers of multi levels of
Speaker 4: horrific tragedy with it. There's no no happy person in
Speaker 4: this whole story, Lloyd. Like I say, the police officer
Speaker 4: who solves the case winds up back on patrol and
Speaker 4: then kind of has a bit of a breakdown. According
Speaker 4: to his former wife, he had a daughter of the
Speaker 4: same age about his rock sane doll, and so this
Speaker 4: is he said, there was no why was he doing
Speaker 4: this case? Why was it assigned to him? He's a
Speaker 4: young detective, he had a daughter of the same age.
Speaker 4: He should have gone to the Climbs against Children division,
Speaker 4: but it was given to him instead, And then he
Speaker 4: was demoted right in the middle of everything when he's
Speaker 4: setting the trial. The whole thing is off, Kilder, Everything
Speaker 4: about the entire story, at every level is off. I
Speaker 4: seem to be attracted to cases where everything's nuts. I
Speaker 4: don't know why. It's like in head Headshot, where people, oh,
Speaker 4: there's so much about the trial, so much about the
Speaker 4: legal stuff in the book. That's because all the legal
Speaker 4: stuff was a direct mirror image of the insanity of
Speaker 4: the crime itself. It was just as nuts, just as twisted.
Speaker 4: And it's just astonishing to me how bizarre things can
Speaker 4: get in terms of our legal system and our so
Speaker 4: called justice system. We don't really have a system of
Speaker 4: justice in the United States. We have a system of
Speaker 4: laws and manipulation, and you know, people say, we want
Speaker 4: justice for a little feather. We want justice for Roxanne,
Speaker 4: and I say, no, you don't. That's justice comes in.
Speaker 4: Justice is for the person accused, and that's where you
Speaker 4: weigh the evidence. As we have justices blind setting there
Speaker 4: with the scale. To bring someone to justice doesn't mean
Speaker 4: to bring someone to punishment. It means to bring them
Speaker 4: to justice to weigh the evidence. We're supposed to presume innocence.
Speaker 4: Now with our trial by talk soul culture we have here,
Speaker 4: there's a presumption of guilt right off the bat for everybody,
Speaker 4: which I find upsetting as well. I would rather err
Speaker 4: on the part of innocence than lock someone up for
Speaker 4: the rest of their life or send them to death
Speaker 4: for something they didn't do. I can't imagine anything more
Speaker 4: awful to live through everyone thinking you're a horrible murderer
Speaker 4: when you aren't. That would be as.
Speaker 6: There's cases where right away, I mean the East Area rapist,
Speaker 6: original nightstalk or case where the one gentleman and his
Speaker 6: wife were killed and they thought it was a business
Speaker 6: partner and arrested him accordingly and took about a year
Speaker 6: to clear that up. But the reputation, his reputation was ruined,
Speaker 6: and that that suspicion hung over him forever. You talk
Speaker 6: about two thousand and three in your epilogue, you talk
Speaker 6: about Gail Doll and tim Iffrigg. They were divorced, but
Speaker 6: you say they remained close and again a little bit
Speaker 6: of a bright spot. You said both he and his mother,
Speaker 6: the Alexander, have stopped drinking. And you say kale Doll
Speaker 6: remains in that same house where Roxanne was abducted from
Speaker 6: and Carol Clark, and Carol Clark is in the same
Speaker 6: home that where her nephew Richard lived as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was a little upset when he came home
Speaker 4: with all these bloody clothes. I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 4: If you could, I would probably move, you know. That's
Speaker 4: the feelings I had for the house were such that
Speaker 4: I could overcome it. And a lot of people first
Speaker 4: thing after a family member dies or whatever, they get
Speaker 4: it change your physical locale. You know. That's the is
Speaker 4: if physically moving your body is going to physically change
Speaker 4: your mind. But I guess you know, move the body
Speaker 4: of the mind will follow. Uh. It's yeah, I was
Speaker 4: surprised that Gail stayed in the same home were but
Speaker 4: maybe she does that as a way of honoring her daughter.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I didn't have to ask her, and
Speaker 4: I haven't spoken to her sins who wrote the book.
Speaker 4: They were incredibly cooperative. I'd say, all the people that
Speaker 4: I have dealt with family members of someone murdered and
Speaker 4: it says it's a horrible way that their daughter died.
Speaker 4: Both Tim Iffrig and Gail Doll were the most cooperative
Speaker 4: in telling the story of You could even possibly imagine
Speaker 4: you were actually eager for people to know absolutely everything
Speaker 4: about their daughter, about their friends, about the memorials. They
Speaker 4: provided so many pictures, and I was I mean, I
Speaker 4: couldn't have asked for a greater degree of cooperation and
Speaker 4: help from a family that I got from the Doll
Speaker 4: Effric family and from what Herndon was exemplary. Also, I
Speaker 4: was very, very fortunate on this case to get the
Speaker 4: degree of cooperation that any true clime author would wish for.
Speaker 6: Absolutely and incredible access. You also talk about, again incredibly
Speaker 6: that Gail Doll and Tim Iffrick weren't they were subject
Speaker 6: to criticism as well right from the onset.
Speaker 4: Weren't they? Oh yeah, you know, and a lot of
Speaker 4: that is class prejudice, I guess if you want to
Speaker 4: call it. You know, he's got tattoos, he's got long hair,
Speaker 4: the heck of a nice guy, good fellow feels wonderful.
Speaker 4: But you know, sometimes people if you they don't look
Speaker 4: the way you do, or they don't dress the way
Speaker 4: you do, or they're you know, social stratus not the
Speaker 4: same as yours. People are quick as well. If you've
Speaker 4: been a better mother, if you've been a better father,
Speaker 4: this would have happened. No one needs that laid on them,
Speaker 4: as if they had some influence over the behavior of
Speaker 4: Richard bade Park. I mean, it's that hindsight twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: You know, I say blame is only important to drunks
Speaker 4: and attorneys often the same thing. I fink I made
Speaker 4: that up, but that is true. People look for someone
Speaker 4: to blame rather than a reason to explain, and two
Speaker 4: entirely different things. One person's reason is another person's cheap excuse.
Speaker 4: That it all depends on who you are and whether
Speaker 4: people will take that as a reason or whether oh,
Speaker 4: they're just making up excuses. So I felt sorry for
Speaker 4: them the way they were treated by friends and neighbors.
Speaker 4: People are quick to jump in the make assumptions and
Speaker 4: probably to protect their own emotions. I guess.
Speaker 6: You talk about two. An important part of this book
Speaker 6: is the research that you've done about fetal alcohol syndrome
Speaker 6: and related neurological disorders here or damage brain damage basically
Speaker 6: from the effects of alcohol during pregnancy, and its importance
Speaker 6: to this story. So tell us just a little bit
Speaker 6: about what you found.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was now the research was done actually
Speaker 4: the universe who've watched in Seattle many years ago, and
Speaker 4: I've used this information in several books on different topics,
Speaker 4: the ones that aren't two crime books. I worked with
Speaker 4: doctor A. Kakur Muhammad on his groundbreaking, excellent book called
Speaker 4: The Anatomy of Addiction, which was my great pleasure to
Speaker 4: work with him in the earlier drafts of the book
Speaker 4: before it was published. And one thing we definitely agreed
Speaker 4: that we wanted to have in that book was information
Speaker 4: about fetal alcohol syndrome and the entire dynamic range of that.
Speaker 4: There was research in a study done actually in Canada
Speaker 4: on prison inmates and it was a supermajority of people
Speaker 4: in prison in Canada have fetal alcohol syndrome spectrum disorder.
Speaker 4: And it's not a matter of how much you drink.
Speaker 4: It depends entirely on the metabolism and the body chemistry
Speaker 4: of the mother. Some can drink and not have a
Speaker 4: drink the great deal and not have it affect the child.
Speaker 4: Others a few glasses of wine could cause incredible damage,
Speaker 4: so it's not worth the risk. If you're pregnant, please
Speaker 4: don't drink. If your think about getting pregnant, don't drink.
Speaker 4: If you've ever been pregnant, don't drink. Alcohol is probably
Speaker 4: the worst in Arizon only a law where you could
Speaker 4: be put in jails even thought that you smoked meth
Speaker 4: while you were pregnant. But smoking math causes no more
Speaker 4: fetal damage than smoking tobacco. You have, they don't lock
Speaker 4: up people up a thought of smoking while the tobacco
Speaker 4: while they're pregnant, but it's not a wise idea. Alcohol,
Speaker 4: even in the most moderate amount, can be of devastating
Speaker 4: difficulty to a child. And if you're with the learning
Speaker 4: ability and primarily with the ability to perceive a connection
Speaker 4: between action and outcome, cause and effect. Now that seems
Speaker 4: pretty obvious to both people. And yet like people, well,
Speaker 4: don't say no right from wrong, No right from wrong,
Speaker 4: There is no it's not like you're a dog with
Speaker 4: the instinct that tells you to do this. That human
Speaker 4: things have very little instinct and a great deal of
Speaker 4: acquired knowledge what is right and what is wrong. It
Speaker 4: is culturally and socially defined, and someone has to teach
Speaker 4: you in these situations. This is appropriate, this is inappropriate.
Speaker 4: Someone with fetal alcohol syndrome has great difficulty grasping the
Speaker 4: connection between what I do and what happens. They're also
Speaker 4: easily manipulated by other criminals, so they wind up taking
Speaker 4: the fall for other people because they're trying to be
Speaker 4: helpful and the other person's using and working them. And
Speaker 4: so the the effect of alcohol on the brain, even
Speaker 4: you know, from the mother to the child, can be
Speaker 4: an incredible social impact. There are certain things that we
Speaker 4: know for a fact reduce crime and criminality. These are
Speaker 4: the aren't things we're willing to do because they go
Speaker 4: against what we believe, even if they're not true. For example,
Speaker 4: legalization of almost anything reduces crime because it's no longer
Speaker 4: a crime, first of all, and second of all, because
Speaker 4: it's no longer a secret. People will get help for
Speaker 4: problems that they don't have to keep the problem a
Speaker 4: secret if it's illegal. They're going to keep it secret,
Speaker 4: you know, but oh no, we can't do that. We
Speaker 4: also know that. I mean, we were talking about murder,
Speaker 4: killing people, homicide, rational saying human beings don't do that.
Speaker 4: So while what is it that's going on in someone's
Speaker 4: head that they're going to do that, there's something wrong
Speaker 4: here somewhere that is not going to be repaired by
Speaker 4: putting them in a cage. It protects us from their
Speaker 4: future behavior, if it's likely behavior. But the whole concept
Speaker 4: of the punitive model, which is, you know, punishing people
Speaker 4: into wise behavior, has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a
Speaker 4: totally false construct that doesn't work. Now I do because
Speaker 4: of head injury as a child. I can identify with
Speaker 4: that some aspects of fetal alcohol syndrome because it's also
Speaker 4: common with head injury. I have never been able to
Speaker 4: comprehend the concept of punishment. Now I can read about it,
Speaker 4: I could study it, but it still makes no sense
Speaker 4: to me. I could not comprehend it no matter how
Speaker 4: much I read. I can understand, and I advocate separating
Speaker 4: people who are predators from the rest of us. You know,
Speaker 4: it put them in it somewhere else, but not near us,
Speaker 4: the Lord bless and keep them far away from us.
Speaker 4: But I don't see how punishing produces has anything to
Speaker 4: do one with the other. It with a positive outcome,
Speaker 4: and you can try to explain it to me, but
Speaker 4: I still both understand it. I cannot identify with it whatsoever.
Speaker 4: But I write through crime books I read with people
Speaker 4: talking about punishment, what this person deserves, and maybe they
Speaker 4: deserve to be hunger or locked up forever, or is
Speaker 4: it that we deserve it to be protected from this
Speaker 4: person for the rest of their life? From what angle
Speaker 4: are we looking at? And then to punished people by
Speaker 4: sending the prison and give them absolutely no rehabilitation everys whatsoever,
Speaker 4: so they come out worse than they wed in. I
Speaker 4: don't see the value of the society of that at all.
Speaker 4: And have you ever been an ex fellon trying to
Speaker 4: get a job, lots of luck, you know who's going
Speaker 4: to hire you, and there's a discrimination on that you've
Speaker 4: already paid your debt to society, but they keep adding interests.
Speaker 4: It just gets worse all the time. So that's my
Speaker 4: soapbox ran for the day.
Speaker 6: At the same time, though the book really demonstrates and
Speaker 6: illustrates that at the same time, you have this person
Speaker 6: that's an advocate for Feather, and this is Julie j
Speaker 6: Lo And they get to the point where she they
Speaker 6: have to have some order in the home. They're trying
Speaker 6: to give her that structure, and they have to have
Speaker 6: these rules, and she defies them in certain areas. She's
Speaker 6: not as defiant or disobedient as she could be, but
Speaker 6: they have their areas of concern for her. When she
Speaker 6: says that she's going to hurt herself, she's going to
Speaker 6: cut herself or carve herself or hurt someone else, they
Speaker 6: take the initiative to take her to a psychiatric hospital.
Speaker 6: They feel that there isn't grounds to be able to
Speaker 6: hold her, but yet there is a point where she
Speaker 6: is handcuffed, you know, so I keep going back to
Speaker 6: the most remarkable part of this book is Feather Ray
Speaker 6: here at four years old. Of course, we almost seem
Speaker 6: to forget about Roxane Doll, but this Feather Hagar Ray
Speaker 6: here is the person that throughout her life has to
Speaker 6: avoid this Richard Clark. And when it comes back in
Speaker 6: seven years that she realized that somebody else has now
Speaker 6: been not just almost molested, but actually been killed, and
Speaker 6: she does not. As she says in the book, she says,
Speaker 6: I don't want to remember this. I don't want to
Speaker 6: go back there. I don't want to She did not
Speaker 6: want to experience this, not one little bit ever again,
Speaker 6: did she no?
Speaker 4: And that's the reason why I didn't contact her for
Speaker 4: the book, but took all over he statements from publicly
Speaker 4: available records and interviews and stuff like that back the time.
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be one of those people who's
Speaker 4: going to call her up and say, hey, let's go
Speaker 4: over this again. But then it turns out that she's
Speaker 4: upset that I didn't go You can't win for losing.
Speaker 4: But this is why I started the book with Feather,
Speaker 4: not only because it's dramatic, but it shows on both
Speaker 4: the perpetrator and the victim the irrevocable damage of this
Speaker 4: sort of thing. Both the perpetrator and the victim had
Speaker 4: gone through pretty much the same thing. There was just
Speaker 4: a lapse of several years between what was under Richard
Speaker 4: and what he's doing to her. And it was all
Speaker 4: about power and all about being powerless and not wanting
Speaker 4: to ever feel that way again. And how do you
Speaker 4: deal with it? What do you do. It's like, well,
Speaker 4: I mention talked about the promiscuity, sexual promiscuity. Well, a
Speaker 4: lot of people don't realize is that for someone who's
Speaker 4: been a victim or potential victim of sexual molestation, be
Speaker 4: it by a friend, family member, father and mother, whoever
Speaker 4: say oh, it's so promiscuous, every act of what you
Speaker 4: think of his promiscuity is a victory because who is
Speaker 4: making the decision on whether or not they're going to
Speaker 4: be touched, Who is making the decision if they're going
Speaker 4: to have sex with that person they are? It is
Speaker 4: their decision, and no one is taking that away from them.
Speaker 4: If they say yes, it's because they said yes. If
Speaker 4: it's no, it's because they said no. They make the choice,
Speaker 4: and that to them is empowering. There are two most
Speaker 4: common responses, shall we say to brother's sister, incestor that
Speaker 4: type of thing family? It says, one is to become
Speaker 4: ice cold and have no sex with anybody, and you
Speaker 4: know have that problem. The other is an incredibly act
Speaker 4: of sex life which appears to be wanting and promiscuous
Speaker 4: to others. But each act is affirmation that is your choice,
Speaker 4: and the more affirmation you need, the more choices you
Speaker 4: make reminds me of the strange way of We had
Speaker 4: a fireplace at our home when I was a kid,
Speaker 4: and my sister was makes you rest in peace, was
Speaker 4: ten years older than iamis. It's had to be. One
Speaker 4: day when we were both with all visiting our parents,
Speaker 4: she said, you ever notice that we never ever had
Speaker 4: a fire in the fireplace? And never had it occurred
Speaker 4: to me. We had this gorgeous fireplace and with you know,
Speaker 4: the nice fireplace, irons and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4: Why did we never have a fire, she says, asked dad.
Speaker 4: So I went to my father and I said, Dad,
Speaker 4: why is it that in all the years we've lived here,
Speaker 4: this lovely fireplace, we've never had a fire? And he
Speaker 4: laughs and smile. He says, I'll tell you why. He says.
Speaker 4: Every day that I could wake up, walk into the
Speaker 4: living room and look at that fireplace and see that
Speaker 4: it's cold and dark and didn't have to be lit
Speaker 4: is another day of victory. One more day I didn't
Speaker 4: have to huddle next to the fire to stay alive
Speaker 4: like I did when I was a child in Russia. Wow. Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 4: So it all depends on how you look at it.
Speaker 4: You know what your life experiences where you're coming from,
Speaker 4: and that never occurred to me. He actually had to
Speaker 4: do that. He had to huddle next to the fire
Speaker 4: in this little village in rushing with the Cossacks coming
Speaker 4: in and you know, shooting at kids for target practice.
Speaker 4: And you know, he was walking down the street and
Speaker 4: they came to and killed the guy he's walking down
Speaker 4: the street with while he's holding his hand. Poor about
Speaker 4: horrible things. We took him to see Fiddler on the
Speaker 4: Roof as it was it like that, Dad is that
Speaker 4: It was exactly like that becauset the hell of a
Speaker 4: lot worse than no one was singing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, where is Richard Matthew Clark now?
Speaker 4: And what's his status? His status says he's much larger
Speaker 4: than he used to be. Uh, and no doubt in
Speaker 4: Washington State Penitentiary in Walla, Walla, Washington, my hometown. And uh,
Speaker 4: and he's awaiting execution. No, they're not gotta kill him.
Speaker 4: I think they'll go leave him, Uh, just leave him
Speaker 4: there forever.
Speaker 6: He's a fairly young man.
Speaker 4: No, yeah, he was young at the time. You got
Speaker 4: to go back down. This is what's been several years,
Speaker 4: has just happened, He's not really gotten any better. You
Speaker 4: wonder what happens to some of these people who are
Speaker 4: in there. Uh And even though they don't have any
Speaker 4: rehabilitation and efforts much. I mean, they're not like training
Speaker 4: him for something that, you know, for when he gets out,
Speaker 4: teasing to be a barber or anything, because he's never
Speaker 4: getting out of there. Just like some of the other
Speaker 4: people like Kirby Anthony up in Alaska who actually church
Speaker 4: people turn out to be model prisoners. Some adn't, but
Speaker 4: because that is going to be their life forever, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean, until they die. They'll die in prison.
Speaker 4: How do you give some meaning to your life? How
Speaker 4: do you do something? A project I'm currently working on
Speaker 4: with Pablo Statamiravich who was what sixteen years in the system,
Speaker 4: and he brought the what called rehabilitation to the arts
Speaker 4: program into the prison, all sorts of positive things that
Speaker 4: were done for rehabilitation and to help people advance. You know,
Speaker 4: where people can do positive things within a prison environment.
Speaker 4: It'says strange as it may sound, but they have to.
Speaker 4: I mean, there has to be some value to human life.
Speaker 4: And if you just take humans and put them in
Speaker 4: cages and keep them well ordered. That it's doesn't make
Speaker 4: anything any better, not for the correctional officers, or the
Speaker 4: staff or the people in the prison. There's a broken system,
Speaker 4: as you well know, the penal system. I don't know
Speaker 4: how it is and Canada, the United States, that's it's
Speaker 4: a tragically broken system. And they keep the putative model
Speaker 4: doesn't work. Separation for the sake of safety works, but
Speaker 4: whipping people or beheading them to the beheading and stops everything.
Speaker 4: That's the story. That's my two cents on it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's a very hot topic in terms of
Speaker 6: people have their views. I think that people that will
Speaker 6: try to disagree with the death penalty will have a
Speaker 6: longer explanation, but they will be a battle that will
Speaker 6: rage on and on, I'm sure, especially when they read.
Speaker 4: Details like this.
Speaker 6: Then in the Fate of Feather right here and these parents,
Speaker 6: you can see that if you were to see these
Speaker 6: photos like you put in the book, and if you
Speaker 6: were at this trial, you might be on the stage
Speaker 6: string him up, wanting death for this guy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then you get those situations where we want
Speaker 4: death for that guy. Let's drag him up, you know,
Speaker 4: lynch him Galaway share up and then afterwards you find
Speaker 4: out it was the wrong guy. You can't go back
Speaker 4: and change it then, and that's happened part too often.
Speaker 4: You know what he is? It a oop? Sorry? Take two? Yeah,
Speaker 4: when you've killed the role anger the death, I haven't
Speaker 4: attitude about it, and that is I'm in favor of
Speaker 4: having the death penalty on the books, and I'm in
Speaker 4: favor of not using it, which sounds peculiar, I know,
Speaker 4: but I think it should be there. Even if it's not,
Speaker 4: you use it, hopefully not used, but still there to
Speaker 4: show because the idea is it's only supposed to use
Speaker 4: in the worst of the worst cases. And if you
Speaker 4: didn't use it for this guy who killed one hundred
Speaker 4: and twenty five people or a rapid murdered eighteen women,
Speaker 4: and you don't use it for him, how can you
Speaker 4: use it for this guy? You know? I mean, that's
Speaker 4: always the thing they bring up, as it's supposed to
Speaker 4: be for the absolute worst of the worst. Well, who
Speaker 4: makes that judgment call? And on what do you base
Speaker 4: being the worst of the worst? It's uh So I'm
Speaker 4: in favor of it having it on the books, simply
Speaker 4: symbolically to show how severe a clime could be that
Speaker 4: it merits taking your life. And yet because of the
Speaker 4: complexities I would just as would never see it. It's instituted.
Speaker 4: You know. If I was Ted Bundy, nobody asked he
Speaker 4: was in the was uh in Denver something? He says,
Speaker 4: what's the state where I would be most likely to
Speaker 4: be put to death? And they said Florida? Where does
Speaker 4: he go? Florida? Why does he get when he had
Speaker 4: a chance to get away, He went to the state
Speaker 4: boarder and you go back and forth waiting for them
Speaker 4: to catch him. Yeah, you know what's that about it?
Speaker 4: He wants to get stopped. He wants to federally gave
Speaker 4: me from this. How much could a guy like that
Speaker 4: suffer being as wackled as he was? Yeah, it's like Reviser,
Speaker 4: You're not Lawrence Talbot the Wolfman. You know you don't
Speaker 4: understand you do you ever see those movies why Jady
Speaker 4: Junior's number one line of dialogue and all the Wolfman movies?
Speaker 4: You don't understand. And it's true, we don't. We don't
Speaker 4: understand what. But that's like to have that inner trom uh.
Speaker 4: You know, even a man who's hard as pure and
Speaker 4: says that prayers the night can changed. Well Wolf, well
Speaker 4: maybe that was going on. I don't know about it.
Speaker 4: I should go want to live through it.
Speaker 6: It's been a fascinating uh interview Burrow talking about Broken Doll,
Speaker 6: A parent's worst Nightmare come true.
Speaker 4: That's certainly it. Yeah, I gotta tell you, I want
Speaker 4: to have a book cover the original books The Parent's
Speaker 4: Worst A parent's worst Nightmare Come True and then my
Speaker 4: name if you look at them. Thanks a lot parents
Speaker 4: Worst Nightmare drew A Borough Bear. I got a lot
Speaker 4: of razing about that. Uh. The book is coming out
Speaker 4: at Long Last as an audio book. It hasn't been
Speaker 4: an audio book all this time. Has been available, Uh
Speaker 4: you know is an electronic but is it e book
Speaker 4: for your kindel No, for your coble or whatever little
Speaker 4: things are and also in print from Kensington has been
Speaker 4: publishing cover lea Pintacle True Climb series, but now it finally.
Speaker 7: A Long Lance is going to be coming out very
Speaker 7: soon as an audio book from Listening Up audiobooks dot
Speaker 7: com and will be available to Audible and also several
Speaker 7: other of my true crime books will be now available
Speaker 7: as audio books as well.
Speaker 4: Some of the b already are, but four more will
Speaker 4: be soon. So very pleased with Listen Up Audiobooks making
Speaker 4: the wise marketing decision to invest their time and resources
Speaker 4: and making audio books of a Broken Doll and three
Speaker 4: others of my true climebooks.
Speaker 6: Well, congratulations and it's about time. Also, you can remind
Speaker 6: people about your fantastic podcast every Saturday and available on
Speaker 6: demand obviously later tell us about your time Oncensored with
Speaker 6: Howard lapedis soon every week on out lout Radio.
Speaker 4: Yes, Howard Lapeda's Manager to the Star is also by
Speaker 4: manager too, which shows how my career is going right
Speaker 4: now we're on the show is celebrating its soon this month. Actually,
Speaker 4: I think it's ten years. Ten years of true crime
Speaker 4: on Censored on Lurradio Live dot com every Saturday at
Speaker 4: two o'clock and available on the show's website. Is a
Speaker 4: player true Crime on sensor dot com. There's a player
Speaker 4: on the right hand side with one hundred shows on it,
Speaker 4: although ser they have more than that. Under my name
Speaker 4: on mixed cloud, Brobaria'll find numerous shows on iTunes. Now
Speaker 4: at long last you'll find some of our shoes. You
Speaker 4: can subscribe to it because of anchor FM, which has
Speaker 4: certainly pulled us back together the last couple of months.
Speaker 4: I've uploaded a lot of the shows that adding more
Speaker 4: all the time to the roster programs that you can
Speaker 4: download through iTunes from Anchor FM is just look for
Speaker 4: True Crime on Sensored on any of your podcast platforms
Speaker 4: or look it up online. And it was originally hosted
Speaker 4: by Don Woldman and I or Me Whether I Am
Speaker 4: Don unfortunately passed away suddenly a few years ago. But
Speaker 4: to a total shock Howard Repeat, us stream show business
Speaker 4: manager and dominant force senator, just give up. I want
Speaker 4: to ask all the questions after we have, But we
Speaker 4: have a fact checker, which I think is important. Mark
Speaker 4: Boyer researches. I developed research by listening to your program
Speaker 4: because quite often you'll have the guests up of what
Speaker 4: we do and uh, he'll ask put down all the
Speaker 4: questions that you didn't ask. The two shows gonna be
Speaker 4: listening together a full picture, uh and uh that's an
Speaker 4: important thing to have. So which check the facts, and
Speaker 4: then we have various guest co hosts come in from
Speaker 4: show business personnelities, actors, actresses, producers such as Frank J. Hagen.
Speaker 4: Uh So we had like a little true crime crew.
Speaker 4: Was a Rod Chepsick, who also does a True Clive show, said,
Speaker 4: here's you don't do a true crime and show. You
Speaker 4: do a comedy show that has true crime guests. Well,
Speaker 4: maybe that's true. We just try to be entertaining and
Speaker 4: get the information out and help sell books especially.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you were one of you were the very first
Speaker 6: true crime podcast and you've stayed around and vital and
Speaker 6: active and very creative for the last ten years. So
Speaker 6: congratulations on this. When that's what I've heard, that's what
Speaker 6: I've heard, I don't know myself.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you time is. We're going by now, so
Speaker 4: fans I cant you track? Yeah, I discovering a rapidly
Speaker 4: becovering a moth covered monument.
Speaker 6: Thank you, Burl. For those people that might want to
Speaker 6: just find out more about your work, you're on You're
Speaker 6: on everywhere, on Amazon, everywhere, but you're also on Facebook.
Speaker 6: If people might want to say hello.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there there are several some women in
Speaker 4: Nigeria try to use my name on Facebook to put
Speaker 4: up Verizon. Oh you can't use my name. You know,
Speaker 4: there's a fake profiles. They just had to be a
Speaker 4: fake need there's a several Burl Bear sides, so there's
Speaker 4: a fan side at author's site. They want to just
Speaker 4: say Burl Bear and I think you're wearing a pink
Speaker 4: sugar or something. That's me and I participate on there
Speaker 4: to a certain degree. I always post the radio shows
Speaker 4: on there so you can find them. Also, you can
Speaker 4: find true Climb on Censored has a fan page on Facebook.
Speaker 4: Uh we you can go to now We'll just runna.
Speaker 4: There's also burrelbearer dot Net has most of my books
Speaker 4: on there, and it's a little bit about my exciting life.
Speaker 4: Expensive website to be sure, so I hope someone enjoys it.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much, Burl. You have a great evening.
Speaker 6: Hope to talk to Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's always a pleasure being on your show.
Speaker 6: It's always a pleasure with you, Burl. Thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Have a great night you bet can I