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Speaker 2: All right, everybody, welcome back to this week's brand new
Speaker 2: episode of Worship Better. We have Stephanie Chase back in
Speaker 2: the house, back on the mike. Stephanie, welcome back.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm sorry. I've been mia for for two weeks.
Speaker 3: I think so apologies as just having me. God, I
Speaker 3: was just having one of those months. But you know
Speaker 3: we're getting into August, n so I feel a lot better.
Speaker 2: Good good see. I'd rather you feel better and be
Speaker 2: on the podcast, and feel bad and not be on
Speaker 2: the podcast. The good combination for me. So yeah, So
Speaker 2: I'm excited to get you back today. And for anybody
Speaker 2: that doesn't know, this show, Worse or Better is where
Speaker 2: Stephanie and I take a look at a wrestling topic
Speaker 2: and kind of compare it to its past and see
Speaker 2: whether or not the current iteration is as you may
Speaker 2: if you asked, worse or better. Today we are talking
Speaker 2: AW pay per views, which is a particularly relevant topic
Speaker 2: because we are one reeker moved from AW Redemption. Stephanie,
Speaker 2: did you purchase Redemption and watch it for six hours?
Speaker 3: No? Yeah, I was going to say that Initially, if
Speaker 3: I hadn't gone Mia, we would have recorded this pre redemption,
Speaker 3: but I think it's best recording it post redemption to
Speaker 3: add to it. I think this will only add to
Speaker 3: our discussion. But no, Tony Kaan did not get my
Speaker 3: money for Redemption.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, leading into it, I had planned when we
Speaker 2: recorded this episode two weeks ago to'd be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this pay per view does not need to exist, and
Speaker 2: they only proved that with the actual pay per view.
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I know we'll get to that
Speaker 3: Redemption will have its movement.
Speaker 2: It will, and hopefully one day it'll even have its redemption.
Speaker 2: But for now, if we're gonna be talking aew pay
Speaker 2: per views, I guess we should start out just kind
Speaker 2: of we're in SummerSlam era, which is why we were
Speaker 2: talking about SummerSlam a couple of weeks back. So Summerslam's
Speaker 2: like the number two pay per view for WW obviously,
Speaker 2: and wrestle Media is the number one. But my question
Speaker 2: to you, Stephanie is what do you feel is aw's
Speaker 2: big pay per view like their WrestleMania, which is a
Speaker 2: phrase people use.
Speaker 3: So I think it's double or nothing, right.
Speaker 2: I think it's because it's like the original.
Speaker 3: I see that, yeah, because it's original. But I think
Speaker 3: a problem that we will encounter with AW AW pay
Speaker 3: per views and Tony Kahan is him being a man
Speaker 3: of habit right that likes to mark occasions and name things,
Speaker 3: and he's very married to certain dates and places and stuff.
Speaker 3: So to me, with double or Nothing being the first one,
Speaker 3: I certainly would have said in the first you know,
Speaker 3: four or five years of AW, that that is their WrestleMania.
Speaker 3: But the problem of constantly holding it in Las Vegas
Speaker 3: is like, it's not good. You know, it's not good.
Speaker 3: I don't think you necessarily need to do a gambling
Speaker 3: theme in Las Vegas. You know, now who happens all over?
Speaker 3: I think now it seems like it's all in, but
Speaker 3: that being placed in Wembley, you know constantly as well,
Speaker 3: I don't actually think there's a definitive answer because they
Speaker 3: don't follow the WWE model of moving events know as
Speaker 3: much and like drawing people making it a destination in
Speaker 3: that way, it's very odd, like as we'll probably come
Speaker 3: to when we discuss the pay per views. I've been
Speaker 3: to so many aw pay per views, but I don't
Speaker 3: feel like I've been to that many different American cities once.
Speaker 3: Tony is like so consistent and where he holds them.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think to me, it's double or nothing.
Speaker 3: But I know he's pushing all In as being the
Speaker 3: one and all In obviously has a connection to the
Speaker 3: original all In that spawned AUW. We've talked about that before.
Speaker 3: But you know, having like your biggest pay per view
Speaker 3: of the year should not be this big event that
Speaker 3: you like, they're an American company, right, so it shouldn't
Speaker 3: be this huge event that you hold in another country
Speaker 3: in that country like one of their biggest stadiums. It
Speaker 3: should be an event that moves around America and you
Speaker 3: can it overseas, like so move around America, Europe or whatever,
Speaker 3: and like that's the destination for everyone, is this event.
Speaker 3: But I don't know, what do you think is the biggest.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing Steffia I asked that question. I'm like,
Speaker 2: this is a stupid question. She's just going to say
Speaker 2: all in because that is what I think. So I'm like,
Speaker 2: so that's what she's going to say. So if I
Speaker 2: sounded surprised when you said double or nothing, is because
Speaker 2: I was surprised when you said double or nothing. But
Speaker 2: I do understand that because it is the original. And
Speaker 2: it is funny that they keep going to back to
Speaker 2: Las Vegas with that. Ww went back to back to
Speaker 2: Las Vegas for WrestleMania's and they saw diminishing returns immediately,
Speaker 2: and it's it's just odd that w AW just like
Speaker 2: they feel like like every all out is always in Chicago,
Speaker 2: like they have burnt Chicago out, like pay per views
Speaker 2: what everything. They are there all the time, like you
Speaker 2: know where all out is this your stuff? It's in Chicago, see.
Speaker 3: From like just with the double and nothing like. So
Speaker 3: I went to the one in twenty twenty two. So
Speaker 3: that did fourteen, four hundred and fifty nine and Ben
Speaker 3: Oh and I went and I had a press ticket
Speaker 3: and we were struggling to get him a ticket because
Speaker 3: it was sold out, you know, And we eventually got
Speaker 3: him one and if you go a year later, I
Speaker 3: went by myself, battle didn't go with me and they
Speaker 3: only did ten, five hundred and fifty right, And it's like, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Wonder what right part of that is? Going back to the
Speaker 2: next year again asked ww and their biggest show the
Speaker 2: year of how that goes? And part of that is
Speaker 2: like that was like twenty twenty three. The let's face it,
Speaker 2: the trajectory of the company was kind of on a
Speaker 2: downswing through that period. But to get back to the
Speaker 2: actual question you asked, I would say all in, but
Speaker 2: it's weird to say all in because we didn't have
Speaker 2: all in until twenty twenty three. Anyway, that's the first
Speaker 2: all in, So I feel like they do want it
Speaker 2: to be that now. But again, like you said, they
Speaker 2: keep going back to Wimbley, and they were in Texas
Speaker 2: last year, but it sold less than even this year's
Speaker 2: disappointing sales for Wimbley. So I do feel like all
Speaker 2: in is where they try to do like big, big matches.
Speaker 2: So I feel like that is at least what they do.
Speaker 2: Even though well I will give aw paper credits this,
Speaker 2: they don't. They usually deliver at least one or two.
Speaker 2: Like what I can said, like big matches, like they
Speaker 2: don't save them. They don't, they don't have like a
Speaker 2: good match in October and then save it till you know,
Speaker 2: all In in the summer. Usually they'll usually go ahead
Speaker 2: and run with it if they have it. WW on
Speaker 2: the other hand, will be known to hold off, like
Speaker 2: I don't know, Opa Femi and Roman reigns for a
Speaker 2: year because you've got to get it to WrestleMania. So
Speaker 2: I don't think they have WrestleMania at all in that way.
Speaker 3: It's funny, like they all in Texas. I've almost completely
Speaker 3: forgotten about that, but now I've been properly remembered of
Speaker 3: his existence, and I think if they had done more
Speaker 3: all ins in different places, in different big places like that,
Speaker 3: it would work a lot better. But I remember before
Speaker 3: that all In in Texas them doing like this Texas
Speaker 3: press conference or something. Oh yeah, I remember that, and
Speaker 3: I was just like, oh, you know, I felt like
Speaker 3: I was a mean girls, like stop trying to make
Speaker 3: all In happen. But it was just funny like that,
Speaker 3: like after it came out of Wembley that which the
Speaker 3: first Wembley. I did think they did a dreadful job
Speaker 3: of promoting, like absolutely dreadful, and they still sold so
Speaker 3: many tickets because it was so unique. And then to
Speaker 3: see them like when they go to Texas, thing like
Speaker 3: let's put on this big you know, effort like at
Speaker 3: the beginning, which I still don't even think led to
Speaker 3: it being seen as big a show as they wanted
Speaker 3: it to. But maybe it's just maybe it just doesn't
Speaker 3: have a WrestleMania yet. But yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker 3: do think they are now pushing it being all in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that at this point that's what they
Speaker 2: wanted to be. But like I said, they've only had it.
Speaker 2: This is the fourth one, so it's kind of hard
Speaker 2: to say that's your WrestleMania when you've been around for
Speaker 2: seven years, so has they've been around half the time,
Speaker 2: so Stephanie, as you know, in the beginning AEW twenty nineteen,
Speaker 2: they had the four pay per views, which mister Tony
Speaker 2: Kahan described as the Big four, which is kind of
Speaker 2: funny because you know, WW has their Big four pay
Speaker 2: per views which are kind of spread out across the calendar,
Speaker 2: and then AW had their Big four, which is funny
Speaker 2: that he called them that, But those originally those were
Speaker 2: the only four pay per views.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so Double or Nothing, all Full Gear and
Speaker 3: Revolution right.
Speaker 2: Right, and out of those four, I feel like maybe
Speaker 2: Revolution is the WrestleMania, But I think that's just because
Speaker 2: I think that because that one in the Spring is
Speaker 2: probably why I think that.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so Revolution it actually starts in twenty twenty
Speaker 3: because twenty nineteen they start with Double or Nothing in
Speaker 3: the May, and that first Revolution, which was guests were
Speaker 3: in Chicago, Shock Shocking, that ends up being their last
Speaker 3: show before the pandemic. Oh right, so a great way
Speaker 3: to to like kill the momentum of that. But I
Speaker 3: really like looking at their early calendar, Like I really
Speaker 3: like it because yeah, you know, calling them the Big
Speaker 3: four and them only having four like is stupid, but
Speaker 3: I think that how well they were spaced out meant
Speaker 3: they all seemed like a big deal. Do you think
Speaker 3: Full Gear will always be one of the absolute strandes
Speaker 3: pay per view names? Do you remember of the fill
Speaker 3: Gear name?
Speaker 2: I actually do now. I don't think they reckon do
Speaker 2: it all. But this was like a BT joke about
Speaker 2: being wearing like your full gear like and places.
Speaker 3: Pack turned up at the first press conference.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's how I always picture a pack one
Speaker 2: hundreds of the time is in trunks and just covered
Speaker 2: in baby oil. That's how I picture pack.
Speaker 3: But on BT, I'm pretty sure Hangman Page was going
Speaker 3: to like body image issues right.
Speaker 2: Well when he started, he just wore trunks and now
Speaker 2: he's in pants.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there was some kind of like body image
Speaker 3: issue stuff going on with Hangman Page, and this led
Speaker 3: to him saying to Pack like, I'll be there, like
Speaker 3: you know, full gear, like I'll take my shut off
Speaker 3: and be in my gear or whatever. But it has
Speaker 3: it has some kind of like weird origin that verges
Speaker 3: on the on the problematic because of the they hang
Speaker 3: on Page stuff. But now they like they make you
Speaker 3: think it's like a kind of a steampunk thing with cogs,
Speaker 3: you know, like that.
Speaker 2: Whole they act like full gear is just like an
Speaker 2: accepted phrase that's related to like machinery that people use.
Speaker 3: It's not, it's not at all. But I just wanted
Speaker 3: to bring that up because I think the other names
Speaker 3: double or nothing, all out and revolution are are are fine,
Speaker 3: but full gear is always the one where it's like,
Speaker 3: why didn't you change that?
Speaker 2: Right? It makes no sense, Like if it was a
Speaker 2: BT pay per view, sure, but yeah, and yeah, they're
Speaker 2: just rolling with it like it's a real thing.
Speaker 3: I think, like, what when you're looking back at the
Speaker 3: time when it was only four, you do have like
Speaker 3: the you have these great memories. I certainly do of
Speaker 3: watching like these pay per views when they were on
Speaker 3: like double or nothing was something I was super excited
Speaker 3: for to watch. I remember just sitting watching that and
Speaker 3: not even like moving for the whole time. And then
Speaker 3: I don't really count the Fighter Fast and Fight for
Speaker 3: the Fallen stuff.
Speaker 2: Nor should you, as they were free and sparsely attended.
Speaker 2: Although I was at Fight for the Fallen my first
Speaker 2: I it was awkward. It was a weird show, like
Speaker 2: it was very poorly put together. The production was bad.
Speaker 2: It was not very memorable. I just remember being there.
Speaker 2: I don't remember anything else about the show.
Speaker 3: I'm not surprised that they had bad production, et cetera,
Speaker 3: et cetera. God does plague them still at times. Still, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and the first you know, like the first all out,
Speaker 3: having the first championship match and everything like that, and
Speaker 3: then and Full Gear too. But you know, it was
Speaker 3: a really fun time and the promotion felt extremely hot
Speaker 3: and we end up, you know, when we go through
Speaker 3: the pandemic, they still like thankfully in twenty twenty, they
Speaker 3: they don't add anything, but they had to go through
Speaker 3: these like zero attendant shows or just having wrestlers in
Speaker 3: the audience and whatnot. And I think they did a
Speaker 3: really good job because like they made the choice to
Speaker 3: do that rather than the mental WWE thunderdome creaziness.
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Speaker 2: You have to give I don't know, they don't give
Speaker 2: much credit for this, but you have to give them
Speaker 2: a lot of credit. They've been around for about a
Speaker 2: year when they lose all their fans, and up to
Speaker 2: this point, I would say the fans were like the
Speaker 2: MVP of the aw experience. They showed up for every show.
Speaker 2: They were loud, they were into the product, and mean
Speaker 2: it seemed like some stuff seemed like a bigger deal
Speaker 2: than it actually was. Like losing the fans and being
Speaker 2: able to transition into something that wasn't horrible was a win.
Speaker 3: I would say, Yeah, it was really really good. And
Speaker 3: I think for me being a fan at home, that
Speaker 3: was sad that I didn't have a chance of attending
Speaker 3: any of these you know events, with everything travel bands
Speaker 3: and all that. They really gave me something to look
Speaker 3: forward to, you know, sitting watching them. I think a
Speaker 3: lot of time me and Banno would watch them like
Speaker 3: on zoom, you know, like both watching them at the
Speaker 3: same time. Like I remember when Matt Hardy nearly died.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yep, that was a classic memory.
Speaker 3: That's a clo classic memory that I'll have forever. But
Speaker 3: that era of AW really even if you add in
Speaker 3: like the weirdness of the pandemic, but if the pandemic
Speaker 3: didn't exist, and those AW shows were like just how
Speaker 3: they were, there was a certain magic about it and
Speaker 3: they were so memorable and it was just a nice
Speaker 3: little you know, four shows a year. That's cool. And
Speaker 3: yeah twenty twenty one, they keep that they get fans
Speaker 3: back for double or nothing, but it's just at Daily's Place, right,
Speaker 3: That's another one.
Speaker 2: I was present for that, and I was so excited
Speaker 2: to be back at a wrestling show. It was like
Speaker 2: I remember, for some reason, Wade played the like a
Speaker 2: replay of the post show for that like a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks ago, and like it was like gushing, just
Speaker 2: like everybody was so happy that like live wrestling was
Speaker 2: back like I don't remember if the show was that good.
Speaker 3: I remember Saber who was left standing tall at the
Speaker 3: end of the show.
Speaker 2: See, no, I do not. I remember that's where Britt
Speaker 2: Baker won the title. I remember that it.
Speaker 3: Was Sammy Gabbar because the Inner Circle won.
Speaker 2: But like you're right, Oh my god, what Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: you're right because they factored in the stadium stampede thing last. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's so funny. Yeah. This is also where Cody was
Speaker 2: the remember when he was feuding with Anti Nagogo and
Speaker 2: he had to be like the real American against the
Speaker 2: evil foreign heel Anthony A. Gogo who hadn't done anything
Speaker 2: before it hasn't done anything since.
Speaker 3: That is like that, that's amazing that you were there.
Speaker 2: I witnessed that. I also saw Brian Cage and like
Speaker 2: the worst fake plastic terminator outfit that came out. It
Speaker 2: was like broad Daylight. It was so bad. It was
Speaker 2: not a good show. Actually I remember it fondly, but
Speaker 2: it was not good.
Speaker 3: I think that, like some of the there is some
Speaker 3: really bad stuff in early AW but it has it's
Speaker 3: almost like that the kind of like early early Attitude era.
Speaker 3: Still at the end of like New Generation stuff where
Speaker 3: like there is this stuff that is just objectively shit,
Speaker 3: but like it's kind of fun too. It's not like
Speaker 3: a like a fencely bad. You know, like there's something
Speaker 3: about it where you're like, oh, you're trying. But that
Speaker 3: Cody and a Go Go feud like that that should
Speaker 3: haunt Cody Rhoads forever, and.
Speaker 2: It kind of did. For aw he starts sliding downhill
Speaker 2: like during and after this era.
Speaker 3: I ended up watching a you know what, it might
Speaker 3: have been the next pay per view, so all Out
Speaker 3: the next pay per view.
Speaker 2: Right in Chicago. As you might be surprise learned.
Speaker 3: Yes we're still talking double or nothing, but all Out.
Speaker 3: I watched that pay per view in a bar sat
Speaker 3: with ANTHONYA Gogo.
Speaker 2: Why why this makes no sense?
Speaker 3: I was hosting a watch party for the event in
Speaker 3: London and someone there knew ANTHONYA Gogo who was in London,
Speaker 3: and like text him do you want to come w
Speaker 3: all Out at this bar? And he said yes, And
Speaker 3: then the guy who ran the event was like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, ANTHONYA Gogo is coming and he he's like,
Speaker 3: when ANTHONYA Gogo comes in, get him on stage. And
Speaker 3: I was like sure, So Anthony A. Gogo walks in
Speaker 3: and I like bring him on stage, and I just
Speaker 3: started like asking him questions on the fly about like
Speaker 3: what what do you think's going to happen and whatever
Speaker 3: and yeah. So during that, like he I remember him
Speaker 3: saying that because you remember Big Show did the.
Speaker 2: Way in yes, saying yes, I remember that that was
Speaker 2: also bad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he said something like that Big Show didn't
Speaker 3: like him because Big Show misheard something that he said
Speaker 3: in his English accent, and I think Big Show thought
Speaker 3: that he'd called that he called him the sea word
Speaker 3: and he hadn't, or something like that.
Speaker 2: It does be fair if somebody from England calls me
Speaker 2: the sea word. I can't take offense to that, like
Speaker 2: I could if like my next door neighbor called me
Speaker 2: the sea word. It's just I feel like built in.
Speaker 3: I think what it was was like he'd he called
Speaker 3: him a yank or something in the promo, but like
Speaker 3: that's not what Big Show hard, but it was like
Speaker 3: something like that. But anyway, Anthony Gogo is super nice guy.
Speaker 3: I think I met him like two more times after
Speaker 3: this when he was he he came to see WEV
Speaker 3: Pro once and he's a lovely he's a lovely guy,
Speaker 3: but would definitely love to get his complete uncensored thoughts
Speaker 3: on this feud with Cody, because there was so much,
Speaker 3: so much weirdness in it, even that like when Cody
Speaker 3: like put a weird racial layer onto it and it's
Speaker 3: like he didn't realize like a Go Go is blag.
Speaker 3: It was just all so bizarre. And then when they
Speaker 3: I think when they showed it on the aw like
Speaker 3: reality show, like Tony was so mad about how the
Speaker 3: weighan went and everything. This was just it was just
Speaker 3: one of the most ill conceived feuds I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: It was truly bad. And you know what you say,
Speaker 2: Go Go's nast dude, I bet he is. He I
Speaker 2: liked him. I thought he had a good look in
Speaker 2: interesting kind of style. But it kind of gives you
Speaker 2: an idea of what happened when he was fighting Cody
Speaker 2: at double or Nothing, and like three months later all
Speaker 2: out he was at a watch party watching it from London,
Speaker 2: So that was kind of, unfortunately the tippy top of
Speaker 2: his career.
Speaker 3: I think I think you could have done a lot
Speaker 3: more with a Go Go, like I really do, and
Speaker 3: it just like it just it just didn't work out,
Speaker 3: you know, like a tawn and he has a level
Speaker 3: of fame in the UK. And I would say like
Speaker 3: three different times in my day job, which is working
Speaker 3: on an entertainment website, that I have had to write
Speaker 3: about Anthony Agogo being on a reality show. He's been
Speaker 3: on a show that I can't even describe, but it's
Speaker 3: like you go through you know, like sas training, you know,
Speaker 3: military training, like as a celebrity and they like torture
Speaker 3: you and stuff and this is like reality TV. Like seriously,
Speaker 3: he's been on like one of those shows and a
Speaker 3: couple of others, and he is I have never had
Speaker 3: to write an article about him or had to edit
Speaker 3: or correct an article about him that ever mentions that
Speaker 3: he's in AAW like they always call him like ex boxer.
Speaker 3: And he also did the the British version of Dancing
Speaker 3: with the Stars, so they'll mention that too, and that
Speaker 3: was long before AW. But he's never presented in these
Speaker 3: shows as a pro wrestler.
Speaker 2: We didn't really talk about that much when he did
Speaker 2: Our Celebrities episode. But they have never been very good
Speaker 2: at capitalizing on people associated with their company that could
Speaker 2: would be used like Anthony Gogo. People apparently know who
Speaker 2: he is. He's not a big deal over here, I'll
Speaker 2: be honest with you. In fact, he's probably best known
Speaker 2: for being an aaw in America, but which is unfortunate.
Speaker 3: I can't believe we had a huge Afterdea Go Go side.
Speaker 3: But yes, you were at Double or Nothing when the
Speaker 3: fans came back, you were one of them.
Speaker 2: I just want to add Anthony Gogo is still technically
Speaker 2: on the roster. It's on the roster page and apparently
Speaker 2: a member of Shane Taylor Promotions, which means he might
Speaker 2: be wrestling our age for all I know.
Speaker 3: Wow, Well, you know, good luck.
Speaker 2: To so the pandemic. We're kind of what we were
Speaker 2: talking about. And it's crazy when we come out of
Speaker 2: the pandemic into twenty twenty one, we still have the
Speaker 2: four pay per views. This is good. I feel like
Speaker 2: this twenty twenty one run, like I said, Double or Nothing,
Speaker 2: was kind of a celebration of the return of wrestling
Speaker 2: and then all out. I feel like this was a
Speaker 2: really good run. These were like all four shows this
Speaker 2: year were like solid and well received, like they were
Speaker 2: on an upswing coming out of the pandemic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you get All at which I watched with
Speaker 3: Anthony at Gogo. CM Punk's first match that CM Punk
Speaker 3: versus Darby Allen fill Gear Minneapolis, Minnesota. I was this
Speaker 3: was when I think it was in mid September that
Speaker 3: President Biden announced the travel band would be lifted, and
Speaker 3: I booked my flights like immediately, yeah, like immediately, And
Speaker 3: I mean that that was an incredible experience for me
Speaker 3: because like, like you were saying, with double or nothing, like,
Speaker 3: I was so happy to be in Minnesota for this
Speaker 3: pay per view, Like I really think I have still
Speaker 3: never had a happier moment in my life than when
Speaker 3: I arrived at my hotel in Minnesota, because I just
Speaker 3: never thought I would make it after like two years
Speaker 3: from Oh my God, it was awful and this I
Speaker 3: met Wade at the show, and I met like a
Speaker 3: lot of other people that i'd you know, seen online
Speaker 3: and stuff like that that you have finally seen in
Speaker 3: the flash. But this is the show where Hangman Page
Speaker 3: wins the championship, tears worshiped by myself, like tears worshiped.
Speaker 3: And I think it was just the build up of
Speaker 3: everything because the pH story is definitely from the beginning
Speaker 3: of aw he it much and I know he goes,
Speaker 3: he goes up and downe and everything. But like his
Speaker 3: this initial character arc I think was really amazing and
Speaker 3: well done. But you add into the fact of that,
Speaker 3: like for me that I was finally out at a
Speaker 3: pay per view, So this is to me, this is
Speaker 3: the this is the AW peak and this is the
Speaker 3: end of the golden era. Is Hangman Page lifting that
Speaker 3: title at Full Gear twenty twenty one?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that was a great moment when we were
Speaker 2: talking about full Gear a minute ago, Like, for some reason,
Speaker 2: I associate full Gear with Hangman and as soon as
Speaker 2: we got it, like, oh, this is why, Well, because
Speaker 2: he is the genesis of the name, the odd name,
Speaker 2: but also I always associate with Hi because yeah, because
Speaker 2: that's when he finally wins the title from Omega, which
Speaker 2: is yes, the very cathartic moment is a good moment.
Speaker 2: Like you said, and other people have said, like, Hangman
Speaker 2: is like the main character of AW. So you've been
Speaker 2: following him at this point for like three years or
Speaker 2: two years and he finally win a title.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I've always been a big proponent of him
Speaker 3: being the main character, but I've started to wonder now
Speaker 3: if it's like he he is the main character of
Speaker 3: seasons one and two, and have we now entered some
Speaker 3: kind of season three, or he's not because he can't
Speaker 3: challenge for the title anymore. And as much as I
Speaker 3: really do love him, I do feel that he's he
Speaker 3: likes his time off, and like whatever his reasons are
Speaker 3: for that, that's personal to him and no judgment on that.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, your main character like in
Speaker 3: their time off probably isn't like like a great thing.
Speaker 3: So it really feels like a golden age for a
Speaker 3: rousing company. And when he lifts that belt, and then
Speaker 3: it's no surprise that when we get to twenty twenty two,
Speaker 3: the next year we have an addition to the Big four.
Speaker 2: Right, So this is, I would is the next era.
Speaker 2: So twenty twenty one into even Revolution twenty twenty two
Speaker 2: I consider like part of that run. And during this period,
Speaker 2: by the way, like buys for and attendance are all
Speaker 2: coming out of the pandemic obviously, but buys are way up,
Speaker 2: Like the buyers for Revolution are like one hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy three. That's like maybe the third or fourth best
Speaker 2: they've ever done.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we're like, you know, I went to
Speaker 3: Revolution twenty twenty two as well, so I was back
Speaker 3: back back in America a couple of months later. Epic
Speaker 3: match on that card and JF Firsus Sampunk.
Speaker 2: Absolutely maybe match of the year, maybe.
Speaker 3: I think Match of the Year and then a bit
Speaker 3: of a locked me an event, because I just remember
Speaker 3: the crowd chatting like, both these guys are called Adam.
Speaker 3: They're both Adam Adam Paige bosses.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, yeah, yeah, and well, this is another
Speaker 2: thing we have like during this year. This is where
Speaker 2: we get this is where we get Sampunk interested company.
Speaker 2: Before All Out, I had his first match at All Out,
Speaker 2: and then Danielson and Cole both debut at All Out together, Yes,
Speaker 2: and then we get Swerve and Regal showing up a Revolution.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you'd love getting William Regal. You're like, I
Speaker 2: traveled across an ocean to go to Orlando to see
Speaker 2: William Regal.
Speaker 3: Honestly, I think I said this year at the time
Speaker 3: of the William Legal thing. I remember being in the
Speaker 3: stunts at Revolution and seeing him appear. I'm thinking for
Speaker 3: Fox it, I have really tied myself to this company.
Speaker 3: So it looks like I'm just gonna have to accept
Speaker 3: whatever they do, and I'm gonna have to accept Wlidian Weigel.
Speaker 3: But I he sure did let me done almost immediately.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there was not a great member run for Willia Regal,
Speaker 2: although we are still feeling the effects of his brief appearance. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But okay, So then in twenty twenty two, like you said,
Speaker 2: they add a show. Now I don't. This is the
Speaker 2: show they add, just so I'm not feel like I'm
Speaker 2: building it up. It's Forbidden Door. They add Forbidden Door
Speaker 2: to the calendar, and this doesn't Initially it doesn't feel like, hey,
Speaker 2: we're adding an annual pay per view to the show.
Speaker 2: It felt like we're having this special event pay per view.
Speaker 2: And if you take in that context, it makes absolute
Speaker 2: sense that they throw in Forbidden Door. They can hold
Speaker 2: another pay per view. This. I do remember initially thinking
Speaker 2: this is a special event and it was awesome. Although
Speaker 2: of course it was in Chicago. You know that I
Speaker 2: was there. Here's the question, were you also all out
Speaker 2: in Chicago? Like it's two months after this?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was.
Speaker 2: You to go for three months on the pay per views.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was what I was going to ask
Speaker 3: you about for Bidden Door was did you think Forbidden
Speaker 3: Door was going to be an annual paper the first year?
Speaker 3: And obviously you didn't, and neither did I. When Tony
Speaker 3: announced Forbidden Door, it did feel like a massive one off,
Speaker 3: which I'm sure we went through this in our cost
Speaker 3: promotion thing, but it really did feel special, probably hence
Speaker 3: me going to Chicago for it. I remember before this show,
Speaker 3: I was so excited, and I think it still exists,
Speaker 3: so maybe it doesn't. But myself and Bano and Andrew
Speaker 3: and sp three, we all meete our own fantasy show
Speaker 3: and it was amazing putting together all these people and
Speaker 3: then the card did not turn out like that, right.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying it was a bad part, but this
Speaker 3: was not a dream Match card, which should have been
Speaker 3: the first signal that Tony was planning this to be
Speaker 3: a yearly event.
Speaker 2: Right, and they've continued to Usually they do deliver like
Speaker 2: one big like Dreamers match, and then the rest are
Speaker 2: like very much just tag team matches, multiman matches, or
Speaker 2: irrelevant matches. Yeah, so you're right, that should have been
Speaker 2: a tip off that, oh, this is what Forbidden Door
Speaker 2: is going to be. Well, if you're just going to
Speaker 2: do this, you can do this every year, and they have.
Speaker 2: So we get the five pay per views a year
Speaker 2: if you count Forbidden Door, which again we still thought
Speaker 2: was only going to be a one off. So if
Speaker 2: you look at it as the Big four, they're still
Speaker 2: doing good. Like buys are still up. Forbidden Door actually
Speaker 2: has the worst buys of the entire year there, Like
Speaker 2: people were not this first for Ben Door too. First
Speaker 2: of all, it seemed like a one off, and also
Speaker 2: like d railed, all the booking everything went sideways. They
Speaker 2: started bringing people in and everything was like crazy. I remember,
Speaker 2: it just seemed like a speed bump before you got
Speaker 2: the all Out is kind of how they presus.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it still feels like that to me.
Speaker 2: I agree with that one hundred sep.
Speaker 3: But what's interesting as well about this time, just while
Speaker 3: we're hear it in twenty twenty two and you're talking
Speaker 3: about like the by rates are still going up and everything.
Speaker 3: And I did say that revolution was the end of
Speaker 3: the golden era, and then we have like the times
Speaker 3: where things are still good because we don't know that
Speaker 3: the storm is coming, like we haven't seen the iceberg yet,
Speaker 3: but we're moving slowly towards it. Because the set the
Speaker 3: Double or Nothing of twenty twenty two is where Punk
Speaker 3: wins the championship, and even me and Benno, who has
Speaker 3: with that year as the two biggest seampunk fans, we
Speaker 3: were like, this is not right, This is not right
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 2: You would be proven right not a few months later
Speaker 2: when all Out rolls around. That's this year.
Speaker 3: Well, we hung around for the Dynamite in La where
Speaker 3: he got injured right immediately after he had to vag
Speaker 3: hit the belt.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and then we get Injurim title nonsense, Yes,
Speaker 2: then we.
Speaker 3: Got Forbidden Door. Whatever we've talked about that all Out,
Speaker 3: I was in Chicago. I was at the show before,
Speaker 3: so it wouldn't have been a dynamite. It would have
Speaker 3: been a rampage or something.
Speaker 2: They still did rampage. This is before collision, so it
Speaker 2: kind of had to be rampage.
Speaker 3: Or maybe it was on the dynamite. But remember him
Speaker 3: and Moxley had.
Speaker 2: A random Yes, they had a random match where Moxley
Speaker 2: just beats him in like twenty seconds or something.
Speaker 3: And then he doesn't want to do the big match
Speaker 3: and then.
Speaker 2: Oh, you're right, and a Steele has to talk him
Speaker 2: into it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was sat beside Zach Hey don't hay on
Speaker 3: for that show. Great man, great great writer, great podcaster,
Speaker 3: and we were talking about Punk before the show. My
Speaker 3: biggest memory of this is like, you know, he like
Speaker 3: he's he's a Chicago guy and I'm and I'm like
Speaker 3: a punk fan girl and he's certainly not a fan boy,
Speaker 3: Like he's way more sensible than me, and it's just like,
Speaker 3: you know the problem with Punk sometimes is that he
Speaker 3: does seem really great, but like he'll always let you down.
Speaker 3: And then he comes out at this show, does his
Speaker 3: promo and like he turns to some guy in the
Speaker 3: crowd He's like, shut up, you fat virgin or something.
Speaker 3: It was something like so blatant like that, it's very punk.
Speaker 3: I just turned mind to Zac and I say, this
Speaker 3: is exactly what I mean, like like, no one can
Speaker 3: teach this man, just like why why are you doing this?
Speaker 3: But yeah, so I would just want to pint the
Speaker 3: picture there before we talk about getting even more pay
Speaker 3: per views than next year of where we were in
Speaker 3: history as we closed twenty twenty two with now unbeknownst
Speaker 3: to us, five annual pay per views.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I'm with you, like I'm still riding high.
Speaker 2: I'm still like, man, aw is really killing it. When
Speaker 2: they got Punk, I'm like, oh, well, gosh. And then
Speaker 2: you had Brian Danilson come in and like, oh, oh gosh,
Speaker 2: things are looking up. And then you have all Out.
Speaker 2: You have Punk and Moxley and that should be a
Speaker 2: great match. You had MJF return to win the ladder
Speaker 2: match and get his shot at the title, and you're thinking,
Speaker 2: oh man, you're getting Punk and MJF again, but for
Speaker 2: the title. Holy hell, this should be everything to be great.
Speaker 2: And then it's far and then nothing happened after the show, right, Stephanie,
Speaker 2: They just nothing happened. Everything just went smoothly, and full
Speaker 2: Gear was a couple months after that, and everything was
Speaker 2: exactly the same as it was before. Obviously we don't
Speaker 2: have to re litigate Out, but I think it is
Speaker 2: like a like an inflection point where things start going
Speaker 2: not as positively for AW. I mean, it splits fans
Speaker 2: in many ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we definitely don't have to go through ball Out again.
Speaker 3: I've certainly told my my own personal story of that.
Speaker 3: I don't I forget what episode it was I went
Speaker 3: through that, but we've talked that. I think that ball
Speaker 3: Out is the iceberg, forgive me. I recently watched listen
Speaker 3: to a five hour Titanic podcast, So Blolla is probably
Speaker 3: the iceberg. But I think it took the Titanic like
Speaker 3: two hours and forty minutes or something to sink and
Speaker 3: a few terms. That's a few more pay per views
Speaker 3: right right if.
Speaker 2: You look goes that way. Also, like they were heading
Speaker 2: towards it the whole time. They just didn't know, like
Speaker 2: they could have steered away from it. This could have
Speaker 2: been avoided, but they didn't. They ran right into the iceberg.
Speaker 3: In the situation, they really did, so, Yes, twenty twenty three. Surprise, Surprise,
Speaker 3: in June, we've got another forbidden door.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and tear comes Forbidden Door. I number for that.
Speaker 2: Oh you didn't go to Toronto for that. Wait, it
Speaker 2: was in Toronto that we said. Yeah, okay, well I
Speaker 2: didn't go to Toronto either. I've never left this country that
Speaker 2: I'm currently in.
Speaker 3: I did not go to the Double or Nothing before that.
Speaker 3: I went to the Revolution in Sound Francisco. Oh shit,
Speaker 3: I did go to the Double or Nothing. Okay, it
Speaker 3: was in Vegas, shocker. Yeah it was. I went to
Speaker 3: Revolution and I went to Double or Nothing. And there's
Speaker 3: nothing that sticks out in my head from either of them.
Speaker 3: But yes, I did not go to a forbidden Doors.
Speaker 3: So this forbidden Door in Toronto is the second Forbidden Doors.
Speaker 3: So now we know it's annual, so now we can
Speaker 3: call it annual forbid door.
Speaker 2: We know for sure and it has continued, yess.
Speaker 3: Yes, and it is their first pay per view to
Speaker 3: be held outside the United States of America.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it actually it does pretty well in attendance.
Speaker 2: It's almost fifteen thousand.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, at this point, I mean we're fourst years in,
Speaker 2: like aw has established a certain quality of pay per view.
Speaker 2: Even people who don't watch Dynamite, A lot of people
Speaker 2: are still like check out the pay per view because
Speaker 2: always delivers for sure, for sure.
Speaker 3: And then so at some point earlier in the year,
Speaker 3: we got the announcement of All In at Wembley Stadium,
Speaker 3: which becomes our sixth aw pay per view on the
Speaker 3: calendar there. So I had heard that they were doing
Speaker 3: a show in London. Might I'd heard this in the
Speaker 3: grand vine in the British wrestling scene, and I was
Speaker 3: living in London at the time, and I'd heard some ideas.
Speaker 3: So I had of course heard Craven Cottage as an idea,
Speaker 3: which is the grounds of the Super Bowl team that
Speaker 3: that Tony Kahan owns, which makes sense, the soccer, sorry
Speaker 3: soccer team, the soccer.
Speaker 2: Team he owns, the World Cup, Stephanie, you can get
Speaker 2: away with football for another couple of months in America.
Speaker 3: So that that would have been interesting, right, And then
Speaker 3: I heard rumors of some other places in London and
Speaker 3: somebody like I think it was somewhat a British wrestler
Speaker 3: or maybe like a promoter or something told me that
Speaker 3: they were doing it, and I forget what they told me,
Speaker 3: but it wasn't it, Like, wasn't Wembley. And I was
Speaker 3: like asking their like prs, like is this true, but
Speaker 3: no answer and then we got the announcement like on
Speaker 3: that dynamite of Wembley Stadium, which I never would have
Speaker 3: suspected that they would do Wembley Stadium now, even more
Speaker 3: than Forbidden Door. This felt like a one off and
Speaker 3: they end up with like a massive attendance, like Wikipedia
Speaker 3: says seventy two hundred and sixty five. Will not get
Speaker 3: into like what the actual number is because there different
Speaker 3: people have different ideas with the ticket count, turnstile count.
Speaker 3: Will Osboy got a tattoo, maybe that wasn't correct, et cetera.
Speaker 3: But this event, for someone, for someone living on that
Speaker 3: side of the world, it seemed really massive and they
Speaker 3: did so well with the tickets they sold. But I
Speaker 3: think that, you know, it kind of doesn't surprise me
Speaker 3: because this was a big wrestling event in Wembley. WWE
Speaker 3: had done Clash at the Castle in this September before
Speaker 3: they did that line the same time as Brailau was
Speaker 3: WWE Clash in the Castle, but that was in Wales,
Speaker 3: that was in Cardiff, and I know what they were
Speaker 3: trying to do, but it wasn't the same, Like it
Speaker 3: wasn't the spirit of the SummerSlam at Wembley and this
Speaker 3: seemed closer to it. I did think that they did
Speaker 3: a terrible job of promoting it in the UK. I
Speaker 3: think that they're super lucky that people wanted a wrestling
Speaker 3: show and we're willing to travel. Their promotion of it
Speaker 3: was terrible, but their promotion is always always terrible, like
Speaker 3: a die on the way. People that are in charge
Speaker 3: of this are just bad, and Tony is just bad
Speaker 3: at making this big deal. But I thought this was
Speaker 3: like super bad. I thought they did not do a
Speaker 3: good job of capitalizing on their mind of people that
Speaker 3: were going to be in Wembley in different ways, you know,
Speaker 3: like having events to the fans and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: I think there might have been like one official event
Speaker 3: and then there were like other you know groups or
Speaker 3: whatever that put on events, and there was other wrestling shows,
Speaker 3: like there was a rev Po show that I was at,
Speaker 3: which I think was the night before and stuff. But
Speaker 3: they they didn't try and make like the wrestle Minia vibe,
Speaker 3: and they've never they've never been good at that. But
Speaker 3: they had like massive success with it, and I thought
Speaker 3: it would be one off. But I'm pretty sure that
Speaker 3: it's at the actual show that Tony announces they're coming
Speaker 3: back next year.
Speaker 2: Yeah they did. I think you're I think he announced
Speaker 2: it like either at the end of the beginning of
Speaker 2: the show, which, by the way, as a wrestling show,
Speaker 2: wasn't actually that great. I mean, you had Adam Cole
Speaker 2: and MF as best friend in the main event.
Speaker 3: Was I thought that was terrible and I watched I
Speaker 3: watched this from the press but at Wembley, which isn't
Speaker 3: the best place to watch the show, to be honest,
Speaker 3: and to see people like clapping and laughing, and I
Speaker 3: just felt like the prestige that you were trying to
Speaker 3: get through doing the show on Wembley and through getting
Speaker 3: that many people to have this like basically like comedy
Speaker 3: match as the main event was dreadful. And I remember
Speaker 3: they wrestled earlier in the night, like in tag team.
Speaker 2: Of course I had to defend those RJH tag team titles.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you didn't even have your main champion, MGF
Speaker 3: coming out, you know, for his last match as the
Speaker 3: first time you've seen him on that show. But at
Speaker 3: this time, like the company was under this terrible his
Speaker 3: off the MJF Adam Cole stuff. Yeah, really, like the
Speaker 3: iceberg is now ripping its way through every floor of
Speaker 3: this ship.
Speaker 2: Right ironically, we're kind of recovering from the brolout thing.
Speaker 2: I think we kind of reached like an equilibrium, like
Speaker 2: everything was like okay leading into this show. Yes, the
Speaker 2: same could not be said after the show. Another thing
Speaker 2: we don't need to religate necessarily, but it's a kind
Speaker 2: of a thing that happened. This is a Seampunk's last
Speaker 2: appearance in AW.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I really I didn't enjoy the first all
Speaker 3: in Like, to be honest, I didn't enjoy being there.
Speaker 3: It had kind of like every element of an event
Speaker 3: that I don't like. And I'm not a big fan
Speaker 3: of stadiums either, So I just fully like there was
Speaker 3: a lot I didn't like about the show and about
Speaker 3: the structure of it and stuff like that. I think
Speaker 3: I was just having a really shitty time in life
Speaker 3: in general. Then like that week or something, it was
Speaker 3: like not grea ut for me personally. And I remember
Speaker 3: Samoa Joe and see him punk coming out for the
Speaker 3: for the first match, and I remember I don't know
Speaker 3: at what point, but I and I think this is
Speaker 3: what happened, but it might not exactly be what happened.
Speaker 3: Like Sean lost sat getting up and showing day of
Speaker 3: something and like everyone was talking. And then I saw
Speaker 3: on X that Punk had had a fight backstage, and
Speaker 3: my thought sitting there was I am watching his last match.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always forget that that happened. The altercation happened
Speaker 2: right before the match. In my head, it happened right
Speaker 2: after the match, but it happened. Punk goes out and
Speaker 2: wrestled Samoa Joe and then come it's.
Speaker 3: Crazy news is out there when he's wrestling as well,
Speaker 3: like it's it's really bad. But yeah, I remember just
Speaker 3: thinking like, okay, well I've seen I've seen his last
Speaker 3: match now, like if anything, I've seen in his last match,
Speaker 3: and that's it.
Speaker 2: Yes, And you were exactly right, and I agree with you.
Speaker 2: Aline was kind of like a disappointing show. It did
Speaker 2: good bias, It did almost two hundred thousand bias. It
Speaker 2: was a very popular show. Obviously is well attended, that's
Speaker 2: well known. You know. It did much worse was because
Speaker 2: they scheduled this so dumbly. Is that All Out is
Speaker 2: literally the next weekend in Chicago, of course, but the
Speaker 2: all the literal next weekend, and they like blew up everything.
Speaker 2: So like all Out, I didn't have like a world
Speaker 2: title match. It just had MJF and Adam Cole and
Speaker 2: this like it was the worst.
Speaker 3: It became like such a such a big problem that
Speaker 3: you know, there was a six six days or something
Speaker 3: in between the two shows. So I didn't I didn't
Speaker 3: go to that All Out obviously because I was just
Speaker 3: I just done, Like the Wembley thing.
Speaker 2: Great because you were in London a week earlier and
Speaker 2: were flying to Chicago for a less than show. That
Speaker 2: makes sense.
Speaker 3: The card was terrible.
Speaker 2: It was a great The main event was Orange Cassidy
Speaker 2: and John Moxley over the international title. Of course, your idea,
Speaker 2: what's going on there?
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Speaker 3: The problem here is this is another big example we
Speaker 3: get of Tony sticking to traditions because all out is
Speaker 3: what are you celebrating all that weekend? Is it libor Day?
Speaker 2: I believe that's Labor Day?
Speaker 3: Yes, so he's like, steadfast on that Labor Day in
Speaker 3: Chicago and double or nothing is what days out?
Speaker 2: Double or nothing is, Yeah, it's whatever I think Memorial
Speaker 2: Day weekend?
Speaker 1: Do?
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, steadfast on that too. Like for a long time,
Speaker 3: anyone would have told you if if you've just done
Speaker 3: like over seventy thousand or whatever in London, you don't
Speaker 3: need a pay per view the next week in.
Speaker 2: Chicago, absolutely, And you know what else you don't need
Speaker 2: to do Stephanie is add two more pay per views
Speaker 2: during the rest of the calendar year, when you've already
Speaker 2: had more pay per views. At that point, they'd already
Speaker 2: had four pay per views, and they added two more.
Speaker 2: They added Wrestle Dream, which is apparently a yearly one.
Speaker 2: That's another one. I wasn't sure that was going to
Speaker 2: be yearly, but it keeps happening.
Speaker 3: They add Wrestling Dream. That's a tribute to Antonio.
Speaker 2: Ok, right, yes, in twenty twenty three, when it was
Speaker 2: still a tribute to Antonio, it was like not mentioned
Speaker 2: last year at all.
Speaker 3: It was so funny. All I all I remember is
Speaker 3: I think it. I think it was JP from Grapple,
Speaker 3: like just making this joke about Antonio and Nochi on
Speaker 3: its deathbed, being like, you must do an event in
Speaker 3: Seattle too to honor me.
Speaker 2: That would at least be a good explanation, because right right,
Speaker 2: right now, we have no explanation.
Speaker 3: But I just thought like it was so so bizarre
Speaker 3: for him, like that, like Tony's kind of like speech
Speaker 3: and like Antonio and OK had a wrestled Dream, and
Speaker 3: he was like the way he tied it to an OK.
Speaker 3: It did the first year seem like he was just
Speaker 3: doing some kind of tribute to Anoki. I think Aoki's
Speaker 3: on like the first poster, like fucking dead in the
Speaker 3: sky or whatever. And but then like he kept he
Speaker 3: kept on with this too. But to me, just like
Speaker 3: full Gear will always be about hang them packet in
Speaker 3: Full Gear, like whistled Dream will always be the dying
Speaker 3: wish of Antonio and Nogi was that this pay per view.
Speaker 2: Exists, right, and like they haven't announced it for this
Speaker 2: year yet, but I assume it's happening October at some point. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then they had their normal full Gear which is out. Well,
Speaker 2: do you want to talk about Full Gear in Los
Speaker 2: Angeles and why that was an awful show? You remember
Speaker 2: the where MJF Wrestle They match and got injured in
Speaker 2: the pre show, I believe, and then goes on to
Speaker 2: just handily beat Jay White to retain the title even
Speaker 2: though he's injured.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually watched some of this with my mom.
Speaker 3: It's a bigger Jay White fan than me. Geez, she's
Speaker 3: not she's not ar wrestling aficionado. And even she didn't
Speaker 3: believe what was happening. This was this was so bad.
Speaker 3: Someone needed to make a Citizen's Arrest at that show on.
Speaker 3: It was really really bad, but they were in They
Speaker 3: were in such as slump at this point, at the
Speaker 3: towards the end of Mjfsman after where all the comedy
Speaker 3: crap that they had gone through with Adam Cole and
Speaker 3: then Adam Cole at some point getting horrifically injured.
Speaker 2: Right stepping off a stage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and all of that that. It was that full
Speaker 3: gear was really bad.
Speaker 2: Yes, AW kind of in general is starting to get
Speaker 2: not great. During this period. You had like some highlights.
Speaker 2: You had Hangman and the Swerves feud was going starting
Speaker 2: at this point, yeah, and you had timeless Tony Storm
Speaker 2: kind of coming around. But otherwise there was not a
Speaker 2: lot going for AW at all, which makes you wonder
Speaker 2: why did they add another pay per view to close
Speaker 2: out the year World's End, which, by the way, there's
Speaker 2: no apostrophe. It's not the end of the world, it's
Speaker 2: not World's End. It's more than one world ending, apparently,
Speaker 2: multiple world's ending.
Speaker 3: I always wonder did he get the title from a
Speaker 3: bar in Camden and London. I can imagine that he
Speaker 3: would like that. He maybe saw it, you know, during
Speaker 3: one of his trips the first iteration of this show.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this was okay. Firstly, this was too
Speaker 3: close to Christmas, right, this was the day before New
Speaker 3: Year's Eve? Yeah, no, horrible, And I just thought the
Speaker 3: timing was really bad. I felt, I don't know, like
Speaker 3: how because I know you guys have you know, Thanksgiving
Speaker 3: and stuff, so how much you really feel about Christmas?
Speaker 3: But I was certainly like I would not want to
Speaker 3: be traveling on December thirtieth, you know, for this show
Speaker 3: if I was a wrestler or a fan or whatever.
Speaker 2: In America, we a lot of us travel around Christmas,
Speaker 2: but not to go to a wrestling show to go
Speaker 2: be with our family. So we're not going to this,
Speaker 2: We're going everywhere else, and travel is crazy because of that,
Speaker 2: So you wouldn't want to go travel somewhere else.
Speaker 3: I think this show. To me, I remember this show
Speaker 3: really really badly. It was. It was marred by controversy
Speaker 3: with a member of the roster. So but that was
Speaker 3: the entire discourse the day of the pay per view
Speaker 3: and during the pay per view and after the pay
Speaker 3: per view, and you remember that, yes, which now made
Speaker 3: the pay per view like seem even worse than it
Speaker 3: was and we got the end of mjf's reign, which
Speaker 3: Samoa Joe, right, you know, so much love and respect
Speaker 3: for small I can't say that I was thrilled with
Speaker 3: him getting the title. I remember I think Ben I
Speaker 3: was pretty mad at me for my reaction to Samoa
Speaker 3: Joe winning the title, because he's a big Smoo Joe fan.
Speaker 3: But I just kind of meant it in like I
Speaker 3: understand why you put the belt on Joe, but at
Speaker 3: the same time he might be a bit past it.
Speaker 3: But yeah, this this pay per view to me was
Speaker 3: just not worth doing. And it ended like a year
Speaker 3: in which a w had It felt like kind of
Speaker 3: gone through some real lows, like yes, you did your
Speaker 3: show at Wembley Stadium, but everything else it felt like
Speaker 3: there was it just wasn't as great anymore. There was
Speaker 3: a lot of bad feeling. It's when we get you know,
Speaker 3: the Punk final blowout and everything that mars the Wembley show.
Speaker 3: It's this terrible MJF era of the Adam Cole stuff
Speaker 3: and all of that, and then to end on this
Speaker 3: dud of a pay per view at bad publicity was
Speaker 3: just not.
Speaker 2: Good for the record. If we're talking bias, which is
Speaker 2: important for putting out a pay per viewer putting a pay
Speaker 2: per view on to sell it good because after all
Speaker 2: in they start going down the toilet like the year
Speaker 2: before it was like one fifty one forty five averaging,
Speaker 2: and then all in they do one ninety and then
Speaker 2: all out only one hundred rest dream one hundred, like
Speaker 2: one twenty five for full gear, one thirty five for
Speaker 2: this World's in show. Like that's an uptick. That's still
Speaker 2: much less than the year before. It's like average. They
Speaker 2: do jump back up, though it is technically the next
Speaker 2: year when they do Revolution in Greensboro, North Carolina, which
Speaker 2: they had the benefit of being Sting's retirement. I think
Speaker 2: that really helped pump that up, although I do remember
Speaker 2: that being a good, good show, like it was kind
Speaker 2: of I think people were like, oh aw, so back baby.
Speaker 2: They they ended up not being so bad, but people thought.
Speaker 3: That this got the opposite vibe to World End, to
Speaker 3: World End because Sting is loved by everyone, so him
Speaker 3: getting this big send off what he deserved. The icon.
Speaker 3: It was beautiful, and you can't say that they mishandled Sting.
Speaker 3: You can't say they didn't book Sting well or anything
Speaker 3: like that like they did. Sting is probably one of
Speaker 3: their greatest successes. If we're talking about like Hangman Adam
Speaker 3: Paige and his arc up until he wins I had
Speaker 3: lived for the first time being one of the greatest
Speaker 3: stories they ever told. This one of the other ones
Speaker 3: is staying from when he debuts in the company till
Speaker 3: he leaves at Revolution. Wonderful scenes and my god, they
Speaker 3: really need it, a rebound like that.
Speaker 2: After they really needed it, and they did luckily get it.
Speaker 2: And we mentioned several shows we were at. I purchased
Speaker 2: a ticket for this show because I'm in South Carolina,
Speaker 2: which traveling from South Carolina North Carolina is not that complicated.
Speaker 2: I ended up not going for I don't remember why.
Speaker 2: I just didn't go, but I sold my ticket for
Speaker 2: like double what I paid for it, so I got
Speaker 2: that going for me. Oh, but after I saw it,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, she just went because it looked like
Speaker 2: it would have been awesome to be at.
Speaker 3: But yeah, after the success of Revolution, it's time to
Speaker 3: add another paper.
Speaker 2: You gotta right. So Revolution kicks off twenty twenty four
Speaker 2: on a high note, and Tony just like more pay
Speaker 2: per views please, so we get dynasty, which you know,
Speaker 2: is that named after the like the eighties soap for
Speaker 2: a kind of show that we had, or what is
Speaker 2: I know what a dynasty is? There a was there
Speaker 2: an actual thing behind this naming.
Speaker 3: There's not a consensus as well on the pronunciation dynasty
Speaker 3: or dynasty.
Speaker 2: Well people say it, well, the people say dynasty are incorrect.
Speaker 2: But yes, I'm sure people say it incorrectly all the time.
Speaker 3: I went to this show.
Speaker 2: Oh you were, because you're like, it's the first ever.
Speaker 2: This has got to be a great show. I'm going
Speaker 2: to go to Saint Louis, Missouri. At least it's a
Speaker 2: new city for.
Speaker 3: Him, it is. It's a new city for me too. Okay,
Speaker 3: I had not been to Saint Louis.
Speaker 2: Oh did you see the big arch thing? That's that's
Speaker 2: what Saint Louis has.
Speaker 3: Cool, Yes I did. Wasn't a fun of Saint Louis
Speaker 3: or the show of Saint Louis. But I have to
Speaker 3: preface a lot of things I say when I'm talking
Speaker 3: about American cities that aren't like New York and Chicago. Right,
Speaker 3: Americans do not walk. They do not So for me
Speaker 3: who walks everywhere, because I don't know, or you.
Speaker 2: Can just walk around Saint Louis. Are you insane? You
Speaker 2: will get murdered.
Speaker 3: So I think it took me about sixty minutes of
Speaker 3: walking around in Saint Louis at nighttime. At nighttime, you
Speaker 3: buy a packet of cigarettes.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, there's things work't risk in your life, for
Speaker 2: I suppose.
Speaker 3: And I could only end up doing this at like
Speaker 3: a garage where they just had the window open, you know,
Speaker 3: and anyway. But when you're you know, like for me,
Speaker 3: and it's not like I don't live in London anymore,
Speaker 3: you know. I live in in Belfast, a relatively small
Speaker 3: town in Ireland, but things like you can you can
Speaker 3: walk to things here, so I don't like need a car.
Speaker 3: But sometimes I find myself in American cities and it's
Speaker 3: so far to find, you know, like a shop or
Speaker 3: a something. I find this in Florida too, like Florida's
Speaker 3: I am we will not walk in Florida. So that
Speaker 3: was my problem with with Saint Louis. But it seemed
Speaker 3: nice other than that. But I actually walked from my
Speaker 3: hotel to the to the show, and that walked took
Speaker 3: about an hour or so, but I don't remember much
Speaker 3: about this show at all. To be honest, I don't
Speaker 3: think it was worth going to Oh Freak. It had
Speaker 3: the lost Brave versus Brian on it.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes it had that. And this is also where
Speaker 2: Swerve wins his first world title, which was a good moment.
Speaker 2: I remember I watched the show. I thought it was good,
Speaker 2: like as a show to watch on TV.
Speaker 3: Coming back to me, Actually, I think it was a
Speaker 3: really good show. But this is probably when I started
Speaker 3: to realize something that I should have realized two years prior.
Speaker 3: Don't go to shows.
Speaker 2: That's fair. I mean, like I said, I watched on TV.
Speaker 2: It was a very enjoyable show.
Speaker 3: I think it is much better to watch Westley's shows
Speaker 3: in the confident of your own home. And I think,
Speaker 3: especially if you don't live near the place that's happening,
Speaker 3: it's best like not to go. So I don't know
Speaker 3: why I decided to go to Dynasty, like, I have
Speaker 3: absolutely no idea, you know what, I do know why.
Speaker 3: I was living in Toronto, so that was way easier
Speaker 3: than getting from Ireland.
Speaker 2: That's slightly less insane. It's still crazy to go to
Speaker 2: Saint Louis from Toronto to see Dynasty, though, I mean,
Speaker 2: but it's a new pay per view. You never know
Speaker 2: it might be Aw's WrestleMania someday, because yeah, damn yeah
Speaker 2: it wasn't. Although guess what it stuck around because we
Speaker 2: had one last year, and we had one, we had
Speaker 2: one this year. There was a Dynasty this year, is
Speaker 2: that right? Yeah? Oh, my notes, it happened that I
Speaker 2: barely remember. Here's something that happens as we start getting
Speaker 2: more and more pay per views, they all kind of
Speaker 2: start blurring.
Speaker 3: Together, really do, because well, like for a start, I
Speaker 3: wasn't even remembering this stuff that happened at Dynasty one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
Speaker 3: eight nine.
Speaker 2: We're on nine now, yep, yeah, Dynasty. We get night.
Speaker 3: So only through looking at the list are the details
Speaker 3: of my life coming back to me. So I don't
Speaker 3: go to Forbidden Door in New York. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 3: that I don't, or should you? I go to All
Speaker 3: In because that is when I'm back from Toronto. So
Speaker 3: I go to All In at Wembley. Didn't like it.
Speaker 2: Either, really, I think it was a better show, but
Speaker 2: again I watched on TV and less of the very
Speaker 2: annoying stuff we got on the last year's Yeah.
Speaker 3: It was a better show, but I still didn't like
Speaker 3: the experience of watching wrestling in Wembley. I still didn't
Speaker 3: like all that, and I really did not like Wembley
Speaker 3: until I the next year went to Seaguns and Moses
Speaker 3: and Wembley and that cured me of my Wembley driver
Speaker 3: and I vowed to never ever ever go to another
Speaker 3: wrestling show in Wembley. All right, well into this year
Speaker 3: is all in because I made a promise to Axelos
Speaker 3: that I would never go to wrestling show and Rambley.
Speaker 5: On Tuesday nights, the conversation doesn't stop when nxtnds, it's
Speaker 5: just getting started. I'm Nate Lindberg, and alongside my co
Speaker 5: host Kelly Wells, we bring you PWT Talks NXT. We
Speaker 5: go live on the pw Torch YouTube channel about fifteen
Speaker 5: minutes after the show to break down matches, storylines, and surprises,
Speaker 5: and we take your questions and comments from the live chat.
Speaker 5: Miss us live. But you still want to be part
Speaker 5: of the show, Send your thoughts to PW Torch nxdatgmail
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Speaker 5: the PW Torch Daily cast feed. Just search PW Torch
Speaker 5: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and of
Speaker 5: course you can always stream the latest shows at PW
Speaker 5: torch dot com.
Speaker 2: All right, well you ruined my sign off question whether
Speaker 2: or not you're going to all End this year.
Speaker 3: But okay, I'm sorry about that. I'm not. I'm not. Guys,
Speaker 3: all Out happened.
Speaker 2: Now here's what they did. They gave it an extra week.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's nice.
Speaker 2: Still, ma'am.
Speaker 3: I didn't go to that. I think it's like, is
Speaker 3: this the end of me going to things? It could
Speaker 3: very well be. I think this was it.
Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, because it's Chicago and then they are in
Speaker 2: some like Florida, New Jersey.
Speaker 3: Oh you know what I did go to all Out?
Speaker 2: It was in Chicago. Of course you did. We should
Speaker 2: have known.
Speaker 3: I went to Chicago with my mother at the beginning
Speaker 3: of September, and then the last day of my trip,
Speaker 3: I went to all Out and my mom went home.
Speaker 3: But I was going to Toronto, so we weren't going
Speaker 3: to same places. And anyway, I cannot remember the paper
Speaker 3: of you at all. All I remember is I was
Speaker 3: staying at a hotel where some kind of convention was happening.
Speaker 3: And Eric Bischoff was sitting in the bar and all
Speaker 3: the wrestling fans were asking questions. And then the next
Speaker 3: morning at breakfast, I saw him take more than his
Speaker 3: first shair. I would say, of the little milks that
Speaker 3: you get or little creams, whatever they.
Speaker 2: So he was stealing a bunch of coffee creamers.
Speaker 3: Then I didn't say stealing.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they're free, you can take as many
Speaker 2: as you want. So I mean I.
Speaker 3: Just remember looking at him going like, this is.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's a weird, surreal moment. To be fair,
Speaker 2: that show had two very mivorable to me things. You
Speaker 2: had Hangman and Swerve and a lights out cage match,
Speaker 2: which I hated because I can't stand needles. Needles really
Speaker 2: give me the X. So yeah, and this is also
Speaker 2: Moxley puts a plastic bag over Danielson's head Birth Death
Speaker 2: Writers and kind of ruins the company for the next
Speaker 2: year and a half or so.
Speaker 3: I do have something to say about this, and this
Speaker 3: is such, this is such an annoying like inside Baseball media,
Speaker 3: Parson point this. I was just done with the press
Speaker 3: experience after all out because because I think that Tony
Speaker 3: had always because these these bloody pressers that he does
Speaker 3: that are streamed on YouTube and everything. They they've always
Speaker 3: been so difficult and they've never been good unless mad
Speaker 3: at one of them, because Tony has this thing where
Speaker 3: one like he wants to tell you that he's more
Speaker 3: open and honest than the competition, right, and in many
Speaker 3: ways he is, but he still does so much of
Speaker 3: these in kfab that they are a waste of time
Speaker 3: for every every journalist that goes there. And then and
Speaker 3: the numbers of assay media people going to a w
Speaker 3: pay per views like dropped dramatically, like they they they
Speaker 3: had a drop in quality and then they had a
Speaker 3: full drop. Now I don't know where they are now,
Speaker 3: but I think most of the people that valued their
Speaker 3: time realized that these were not valued like good for
Speaker 3: their time wasn't worth the expense of coming to the show.
Speaker 3: They were all like so bad, So much of it
Speaker 3: isn't Tony. I think there's definitely a part of Tony
Speaker 3: Khan's personality where he wants to be the center of
Speaker 3: attention or he wouldn't be sitting out there like he
Speaker 3: wouldn't be because he's unnecessary. But this pay per view,
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it was this one. Tony did not
Speaker 3: appear at the presser due to the events that had
Speaker 3: happened on the show. He was like this story they
Speaker 3: told was like you know whoa that was? That was
Speaker 3: so bad? I can't I'm dealing with, you know, the
Speaker 3: fact that Brian was nearly dead or something like whatever.
Speaker 2: Oh, so they really sell it, like we're talking neck
Speaker 2: bracet like football show.
Speaker 3: The next day, they're really selling it. You've got John
Speaker 3: Moxley's wife, Renee doing this posting job that she was
Speaker 3: given because the kind of pr staff were like, Renee
Speaker 3: gets this hosting job after the fiasco at World's End
Speaker 3: involving Tony and the questions being asked of him at
Speaker 3: that first World's End, Right, So after that, Renee is
Speaker 3: given a hosting job, but she happens to be married
Speaker 3: to man who is now like has done an.
Speaker 2: Attempt at murder, right, And they never they never addressed
Speaker 2: that to today, like it's part of storyline. But she
Speaker 2: never like addresses the horrible things he's constantly doing on
Speaker 2: TV for the next year a half.
Speaker 3: It's so stupid. They never should have allowed them to
Speaker 3: be married on stream a screen because it never works.
Speaker 3: It makes you wonder like what he's like as a
Speaker 3: character at home. I mean in the case of like
Speaker 3: she's just terrified. You know, she's married to this madman.
Speaker 3: So you get Tony not appearing, and I remember speaking
Speaker 3: to one person at the show and I'll just I'll
Speaker 3: not name them, but them saying like like how much
Speaker 3: they spent coming there and everything, and like for Tony
Speaker 3: to just say he's not doing the presser, I'm pretty
Speaker 3: sure the real reason he didn't do it was he
Speaker 3: had to fly to the UK for like a football
Speaker 3: the next day, and it was just all so shitty,
Speaker 3: and I think at that point I was just like,
Speaker 3: you know, this might be my last draw with all
Speaker 3: of it, with like trying to cover aw and all
Speaker 3: that other stuff, because it was just it has just
Speaker 3: gotten too bad. And like that was just really crappy.
Speaker 2: And for those keeping track, buys are now we're down
Speaker 2: into like one hundred and five or one hundred and
Speaker 2: five and one hundred and ten for the rest of
Speaker 2: the years. So but not only is Creative kind of
Speaker 2: going downhill and the buys are going down, but yeah,
Speaker 2: things are this is where things start swinging downward unfortunately. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they stick with nine pay per views for the year.
Speaker 3: Anyways, Yeah, we I mean we end up we end
Speaker 3: up finishing the year with Wrestle Dream again in the
Speaker 3: same kind of area. Am I right, isn't it in
Speaker 3: this time?
Speaker 2: Is that it's basically Seattle? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean he.
Speaker 2: Loved Seattle apparently. I just don't know.
Speaker 3: It's so adamant about him having to be honored in Seattle.
Speaker 3: Full Gear they do in New York, New Jersey, at
Speaker 3: a venue that they had done for Full Gear, either
Speaker 3: the year before or two years before, because I have
Speaker 3: been to that venue to see a full Gear.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was twenty twenty two where they had Full
Speaker 2: Gear there where they had twelve thousand attendance twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: I believe it is one we're talking about where they
Speaker 2: have ten thousands. We're down like two thousand, which is
Speaker 2: actually not as bad as I would have guessed, but
Speaker 2: they still have This is crazy because like aew, like
Speaker 2: we're talking kind of on a downswing. Their numbers are down,
Speaker 2: they still have like a reputation of still delivering good
Speaker 2: pay per view, especially pay per view matches.
Speaker 3: I mean, these shows are not bad bad bad bad shows.
Speaker 3: They can be bad in the context of an aw show.
Speaker 3: But they always do have, you know, good remutation, and
Speaker 3: they all their by rates are always pretty good.
Speaker 2: Right, even the bad ones are down like a hundred,
Speaker 2: they're never under one hundred thousand. And if you figure
Speaker 2: fifty dollars times one hundred thousand, I'm not a mathematician,
Speaker 2: but that's like what five million dollars. Yeah, that's not bad.
Speaker 2: That's not a bad turnaround. Yeah. So of course they
Speaker 2: end this year with World's End. That's how we end
Speaker 2: the shows now, even closer to Christmas. I'm twenty eighth
Speaker 2: this year, like three days after Christmas in Florida. I
Speaker 2: don't remember any of this. I looked at I look
Speaker 2: it up. I'm like, okay, this is where o'catta wins
Speaker 2: the Continental Classic. Not a lot going on there.
Speaker 3: No, So we don't get any additions in twenty twenty five, correct.
Speaker 2: We don't. We remain at nine.
Speaker 3: Yes, and we don't get the all in in London.
Speaker 3: We get it in Texas.
Speaker 2: That is correct.
Speaker 3: And I did not go to a single wrestling show
Speaker 3: that year, the first since twenty twenty one. They'd finally
Speaker 3: broken me and I'd stop. So I don't think I
Speaker 3: have a great deal to say about twenty twenty five
Speaker 3: in the year other than we are just looking at
Speaker 3: a fuller peop of UCAP calendar has now been established,
Speaker 3: right and even.
Speaker 2: Though a lot of it still runs together, like the
Speaker 2: year starts with Revolution, which is still a good show.
Speaker 2: That's where you have the Osprey and Fletcher cage match
Speaker 2: and Tony Storm and Ryan May's Hollywood ending, which we've
Speaker 2: talked about it being insane that that was not the
Speaker 2: main event, but that was I remember that made a
Speaker 2: good Revolution and then yeah, a lot of these really
Speaker 2: start to run together, like once we get the twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five like all the way through. So yeah, Forbidden Door,
Speaker 2: so you you didn't go to anything. I haven't been
Speaker 2: any of these. For mid Door was in London in
Speaker 2: August last year. I assume you didn't go to that. No,
Speaker 2: not a lot of this is kind of where we
Speaker 2: landed on our crossover episode, like Forbidden Door unnecessary completely
Speaker 2: at this point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a novelty to doing it in London,
Speaker 3: but I guess that was just to give the UK something.
Speaker 3: But like they do it in London, which is the
Speaker 3: city where they've had the all ans could you have
Speaker 3: done that in Manchester for the people from the north
Speaker 3: of the country or Scotland or Wales, or you could
Speaker 3: have jumped over the water and done it somewhere in
Speaker 3: Europe like Ireland where I live, or you could have
Speaker 3: gone to mainland Europe, like France or something. But like,
Speaker 3: let's just do it in London. Why not?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, they they loved London apparently. I guess they
Speaker 2: were so mad that they did Ireland. They did all
Speaker 2: In in Arlington, Texas, that they had to go back
Speaker 2: to London immediately. All In for the record in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five is where Hangman Bey wins the title from
Speaker 2: Moxley last year, and this is this does really good
Speaker 2: numbers and then like our by rates start swinging back
Speaker 2: up from the one tens and one to fifteens to
Speaker 2: like one twenty All out in Toronto where they actually
Speaker 2: skipped Chicago last year actually Thered one hundred and thirty seven.
Speaker 2: And then Wrestle Dream, which is in Saint Louis, so
Speaker 2: they go back to Saint Louis does one hundred and twenty.
Speaker 2: So in general last year numbers started going back up
Speaker 2: right after Moxley finally lost the title. And the death
Speaker 2: writers were kind of no longer running the show. I
Speaker 2: don't think that's a concidence. I think that is.
Speaker 3: A creative It's not it's not the show to go
Speaker 3: into that, but the entire arc of evil Indestructible Moxley
Speaker 3: with the title and a briefcase No, not for me,
Speaker 3: but you know.
Speaker 2: I mean that is still going on technically.
Speaker 3: I that man, really I am.
Speaker 2: I like mox I was a big fan. I was
Speaker 2: excited when he started AW but he is wearing on
Speaker 2: me at this point.
Speaker 3: I have gone right off him, to be honest, like
Speaker 3: John Hogan, he is like it's too much. It's too much,
Speaker 3: and I don't know. I would love to know. I
Speaker 3: would love to know more about him because I have
Speaker 3: I have a lot of thoughts. But it feels like
Speaker 3: that Tony, I know that he's kind of like the
Speaker 3: one guy that could just be like, f this, I'm
Speaker 3: going home. So he just lets him do whatever.
Speaker 2: That seems to be exactly how they have their creative
Speaker 2: around Moxley setup is just yet do whatever you want.
Speaker 2: Try to stay away from the world title. Now, although
Speaker 2: we're going into all End this year with Omega and
Speaker 2: Osprey and Moxley is still a giant part of it.
Speaker 3: Well, shall we get Intoto this year, because.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can make it to a modern day, because god,
Speaker 2: we thought nine was rough.
Speaker 3: So what happens this year? What do they add this year?
Speaker 2: Well? See this year, Stephanie, they add Redemption and that
Speaker 2: is a news show that they put on in Canada.
Speaker 2: And the thing with Redemption is, first of all, even
Speaker 2: though dynasty or dynasty and like some of the names
Speaker 2: are question but like Redemption is like apropos of nothing.
Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with anything and sounds like
Speaker 2: six other things. It sounds like Revolution, which was a
Speaker 2: couple of months ago, and like I think people like
Speaker 2: even like out on with Way and he kept calling
Speaker 2: it something else like retribution or something like it's not
Speaker 2: a good name for a pay per view and does
Speaker 2: it relate to anything?
Speaker 3: Can I just jump in there?
Speaker 2: Yes? Please?
Speaker 3: That I what I'm what I'm doing in my free
Speaker 3: time instead of writing about or talking about wrestling, or
Speaker 3: attending wrestling or anything like, this is writing writing a
Speaker 3: novel and it's not about wrestling, but involves wrestling. And
Speaker 3: while doing this I had to think of event names
Speaker 3: and Redemption is so close to the name to names
Speaker 3: that I came up with, but I was doing like
Speaker 3: just one word things that it makes me worry that
Speaker 3: Tony's gonna think of some names that I and I'm
Speaker 3: not going to say how I got the names that
Speaker 3: I thought of, but like Redemption, honestly, to me, feels
Speaker 3: like a show that w W should have had, should
Speaker 3: have after WrestleMania. It's very like backlash, right right, That's
Speaker 3: what it feels like before the big show instead of after.
Speaker 2: It seemed, and a lot of people have speculated that
Speaker 2: it was set up to be Kenny Omega's Redemption coming
Speaker 2: back from his doubt and winning the title, except for
Speaker 2: they moved that match up two weeks and he wins
Speaker 2: the title on Dynamite, thereby making this show completely It
Speaker 2: was arguably already unnecessary, but without the Omega and MJF
Speaker 2: to like hold it down, it was like maybe the
Speaker 2: most unnecessary pay per view ever save for maybe a
Speaker 2: Forbidden Door, which are also irrelevant, but like, well, you
Speaker 2: didn't order it. I didn't order it, that's too. Forbidden
Speaker 2: Door and Redemption are the only two of this year's
Speaker 2: pay per views that I have not watched in the
Speaker 2: history of AAW.
Speaker 3: I think that now that we have the complete scope
Speaker 3: of all the AW pay per views and we've built,
Speaker 3: we've built on the year to year, and we've finally
Speaker 3: landed on Redemption, the most recent edition that let's hope
Speaker 3: is a lot edition, but at least for our conversation,
Speaker 3: it is. I think we can nicely segue this into
Speaker 3: talking about show length and matches, because I think that
Speaker 3: that is a good conversation to have when you look
Speaker 3: at a show like Redemption, because to me, this felt
Speaker 3: like an extremely pointless show. And that is to say
Speaker 3: that all the matches were bad. They were not. But
Speaker 3: this could have been a dynamite. This all a dynamite.
Speaker 2: It's the equivalent of this meeting could have been an
Speaker 2: email like this could have just been a dynamite. It
Speaker 2: would have been a good dynamite.
Speaker 3: And I don't want to be constantly saying things that
Speaker 3: I don't like that Tony Kann does because it feels
Speaker 3: like I have a personal vendata against him, but it
Speaker 3: just I don't. It's just he's the owner, so the
Speaker 3: buck has to stop with him. But the thing that
Speaker 3: he says and acts like that annoys me the most.
Speaker 3: Other than his treatment of women is when he calls
Speaker 3: his pay per views value for money because they're so long,
Speaker 3: and he has always stuck by this idea of that
Speaker 3: his pay per views, they give you so much value
Speaker 3: for money. I find that so offensive, Like that is
Speaker 3: just like a really rich person's idea of like we
Speaker 3: will take absolute slop as long as we get lots
Speaker 3: of it, so it's not a waste of our money
Speaker 3: because we're so per It's like all these pay per views,
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure like the same prize. But it's like
Speaker 3: like last week I went to see The Odyssey in
Speaker 3: the cinema. Right now, if I go next week to
Speaker 3: see some like ninety minute loalm com, I'm not going
Speaker 3: to be there going, hey man, I want a refund
Speaker 3: because the film I saw last week was three hours
Speaker 3: and I've been ripped off, you know, like that's not
Speaker 3: how people feel. Like the pay per views are our
Speaker 3: pay per views and giving you over five hours of
Speaker 3: it instead of like the standard three, which it should be. Right,
Speaker 3: it's too much, and it makes and those matches, each
Speaker 3: of those matches were so long, like they were all
Speaker 3: like hit in like sixteen eighteen.
Speaker 6: Minutes, right, unnecessarily long twenty five of TOMASO and uh also,
Speaker 6: I know we just said that wasn't a bad show,
Speaker 6: that was an awful match, that was horrible.
Speaker 2: I would have been so mad if I paid money
Speaker 2: and watched that for twenty five minutes straight, I would
Speaker 2: have probably turned the show off and just went the bit.
Speaker 1: Before pushing play on the way Keller Pro Wrestling post shows,
Speaker 1: check out pw torch dot com and our TV review
Speaker 1: section and skim through a full rundown of the TV
Speaker 1: show if you didn't see it. That's your way to
Speaker 1: get an overview of what happened before you dive into
Speaker 1: our in depth analysis of the key happenings on the show.
Speaker 1: That's pw torch dot com. You're home for live TV
Speaker 1: coverage every Monday, Wednesday and Friday with my TV reports,
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Speaker 1: on weekends, all waiting for you at pw torch dot com.
Speaker 3: But I think that when you say that the shows
Speaker 3: are too long, like you'll always have people coming back
Speaker 3: at you saying like no, like, no, they're not and
Speaker 3: they believe in the Tony Kahn value for moneything. I
Speaker 3: truly do not believe that anyone that says they're not
Speaker 3: too long believes that in their heart.
Speaker 2: I really think it's some of the repeat of like
Speaker 2: aw fantoxic positivity stuff.
Speaker 3: It's and when you're not watching them live, like you know,
Speaker 3: so I wasn't going to stay up and watch this
Speaker 3: because I'm over here, so like Beno is in Vietnam right,
Speaker 3: so he's not watching them live. And the next morning
Speaker 3: he messaged me and was like, nothing worse than looking
Speaker 3: at the runtime ahead of you when you love on
Speaker 3: MIAW after not having watched it live. And I agree,
Speaker 3: like it's so daunting as well. It's like picking up
Speaker 3: a massive book that you know you have to read,
Speaker 3: like a really one. And in saying that, like I mean,
Speaker 3: I am prone to buy in a lot of books,
Speaker 3: and usually in my local bookstart store they are all
Speaker 3: nine ninety nine, no matter how long they are. But
Speaker 3: Tony just thinks that like per people like us can't
Speaker 3: deal with that, you.
Speaker 2: Know, it is insane, and also like you know, the
Speaker 2: reason I haven't been to see the honesty is because
Speaker 2: it's three hours, and I don't want to sit in
Speaker 2: there in a theater for three hours, just like I
Speaker 2: don't want to sit and watch a wrestling pay per
Speaker 2: view for five hours.
Speaker 3: And what's assuring test like it really is.
Speaker 2: Well, especially in the theater, Like I have to go
Speaker 2: to the bathroom at some point. It's just that's how
Speaker 2: the body works. And I'm getting older. But also, like Tony,
Speaker 2: they started it doesn't matter because you weren't watching it alive,
Speaker 2: but they started this pay per view an hour earlier,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, at first, I'm like, oh, that's great,
Speaker 2: I can get the bet. And I'm like, no, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I know what they're gonna do. They're gonna
Speaker 2: think they have an extra hour to screw around with,
Speaker 2: and damn if, isn't that exactly what they did. And
Speaker 2: that's what Tony actually said. He said it out in
Speaker 2: the posto thing. He's like, oh, yeah, we started an
Speaker 2: hour early so I can make sure I would get
Speaker 2: out by midnight. I'm like, you weren't sure you were
Speaker 2: gonna get out by midnight if you started to eat.
Speaker 2: That's a problem.
Speaker 3: That is an insane And when you look like so
Speaker 3: for me going to see the Odyssey, just like when
Speaker 3: I went to see the first Wicked film two. I
Speaker 3: was actually proud of myself when I left for sitting
Speaker 3: through it and actually just watching it, right. And I
Speaker 3: enjoyed both of those movies immensely, but I was quite
Speaker 3: daunted by the three hours you know before I went
Speaker 3: to see them. So when I saw them both, and
Speaker 3: I was like, whoa, I you know, I sat there
Speaker 3: for three hours because I am a bit like I
Speaker 3: like to get up up and down, you know, as
Speaker 3: you know, right, But like I really think that like
Speaker 3: for all his you know, saying that it's value for
Speaker 3: money on whatever, he he stole people's money this month
Speaker 3: like he did because that pay per view was unnecessary
Speaker 3: and people paid for that. Now is that not just
Speaker 3: being greedy?
Speaker 2: Right? That's not value for money. That's like, like you said,
Speaker 2: it's like a really bad buffet. It's like, but you
Speaker 2: have so much of it, like but no, it's no good.
Speaker 2: Like a lot of something you don't want is not value.
Speaker 2: It's just a lot of some it's just too much.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if he's ever like every single
Speaker 2: like review of that show, like weighed on the post
Speaker 2: show roundtable. Everybody's just like this is too long. That
Speaker 2: is the first thing everybody says about every aw paper
Speaker 2: you after it. And I agree with you that anyone
Speaker 2: who doesn't think it's too long is either disingenuous or
Speaker 2: just loves wrestling more than I could ever imagine in
Speaker 2: my entire life.
Speaker 3: But Tony has He has no concept of the idea
Speaker 3: of one of off experiences or rare experiences or something
Speaker 3: like that. And I think with the show's being too long,
Speaker 3: you know, that's probably fine if you're a billionaire and
Speaker 3: you have like every convenience to you, you know, like
Speaker 3: like you know, like anything like that. And he doesn't
Speaker 3: understand if you take something like, for example, when Taylor
Speaker 3: Swift did the Eras Tour and her shows on the
Speaker 3: Ears Tour were like over three hours long, and that's
Speaker 3: a really long time for a concert, but no one
Speaker 3: complained about that because that was a one time.
Speaker 2: Thing, right, That's like a once in a lifetime experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you go to that and you know it's
Speaker 3: going to be really long, and you're prepared for it
Speaker 3: and you're getting everything. So the idea was like total
Speaker 3: servicing of the paying fans. Who spent a lot of
Speaker 3: money and they got that. If that was every month
Speaker 3: you were expected to go through that, I think by
Speaker 3: the end by a couple of months, people for like, please, no,
Speaker 3: we don't need it for so long. But Tony wouldn't
Speaker 3: have a concept of that, because when you're someone like
Speaker 3: Tony Kan, if you wanted to go to like twenty
Speaker 3: ears tour shows, you could right never have the and
Speaker 3: if you want it to go to one for like
Speaker 3: half an hour, go for a walk around, then buy
Speaker 3: another ticket to get back in like you could. But
Speaker 3: it's like he probably has no like genuine concept of
Speaker 3: Christmas or birthdays, like he celebrates them, but he doesn't
Speaker 3: have the concept like you or I would have of
Speaker 3: getting gifts and it being like rare. Everything has to
Speaker 3: be like, let's do it again, Let's do.
Speaker 6: It again, let's.
Speaker 3: Do it again, let's do the same. Please, let's recreate
Speaker 3: the whole thing again. Oh my god, and let's make.
Speaker 2: It so long, right. He acts like he respects your money,
Speaker 2: but he doesn't really, and he definitely does not respect
Speaker 2: your time.
Speaker 3: He does not respect your time. I think it might
Speaker 3: be too far to say he doesn't respect you, because
Speaker 3: I know he's not, and he's not like an an
Speaker 3: evil billionaire. Like he's an evil billion in the sense
Speaker 3: of that there's no ethical billionaire like at all, and
Speaker 3: there's no way you can be that and it's just
Speaker 3: wrong to be that. Right, But he's not like an
Speaker 3: Elon Musk figure. But at the same time, he's definitely
Speaker 3: slightly looking down on us, even if it's subconsciously by
Speaker 3: thinking that we just want to be like fed and
Speaker 3: fed as much candy as possible.
Speaker 2: Right, Right, he's not an evil billionaire, but he's like
Speaker 2: a clueless billionaire that doesn't understand the world. Here's what
Speaker 2: I'll say, though, as dante as it can be, to
Speaker 2: look at the runtime of some of these, you know
Speaker 2: it's going to be packed full of mostly good matches.
Speaker 2: Like if I see a four hour runtime on a
Speaker 2: WWE pay per view and I'm trying to catch up
Speaker 2: on guess what, It's going to take me about an
Speaker 2: hour and a half to watch that whole damn thing. Tops. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's and I don't even have to pass forward through matches,
Speaker 2: but just going through the ads, you're good, You'll be
Speaker 2: caught up immediately. So I will give him. I'll give
Speaker 2: aw that's what you can expect that of an AW
Speaker 2: pay per view is too many matches that go too long,
Speaker 2: but generally they are all high quality. Some of them
Speaker 2: are completely unnecessary, sure, but there's a reason, like we
Speaker 2: said this going into it, like they still have a
Speaker 2: reputation of like they always deliver on pay per view.
Speaker 2: They always the wrestlers always bring it, even when the
Speaker 2: storylines going into them are bad or uninspired, like even
Speaker 2: this a redemption which was a garbage waste paper view,
Speaker 2: like most of the matches were still quite good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing, Like, that's why they are able
Speaker 3: to persuade people to buy the pay per views even
Speaker 3: when attendance is done. AW does have like the best
Speaker 3: assembled roster, but there's just too many all this roster,
Speaker 3: Like they probably have the best roster. Ever, if you
Speaker 3: got rid of like half of them, like you really
Speaker 3: need to get rid of a lot of people, and
Speaker 3: those the pay per views, they would be there's some
Speaker 3: of them that are absolute all timers, but they'd have
Speaker 3: more chance of more feeling like that if there was
Speaker 3: least matches, because they have rewatchability today. I started rewatching
Speaker 3: Unforgiven nineteen ninety eight for a guest spot I'm doing
Speaker 3: on the Beno on Halmflet podcast, And I watched the
Speaker 3: VHS version, and my god, I had to fix this
Speaker 3: VHS because it like I've had it for like twenty years.
Speaker 2: More than I had to like mess with the tracking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I just had this thought of, like how
Speaker 3: many times I've watched this show or last time we spoke,
Speaker 3: I was talking about Sumwher Slam ninety eight, right, And
Speaker 3: I just can't imagine, especially the way this world is
Speaker 3: that like any any kid, any version of me that
Speaker 3: exists now popping in their AW Redemption six hour, loading
Speaker 3: that one up and watching it on a constant the
Speaker 3: way that you could do with those three hour or
Speaker 3: just under three hour Classic Attitude ARA pay per views.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's the thing, Like I it, We're seven
Speaker 2: years in. I've watched all but the last two pay
Speaker 2: per views live. I have never once gone back and
Speaker 2: watched an entire pay per view. I've popped back to
Speaker 2: watch a match here and there, but I've never like
Speaker 2: sat through another AW pay per view for a second time.
Speaker 2: What would be the point of that, I know, because
Speaker 2: they don't have I don't know, they don't have like
Speaker 2: a lot of big moments, Like we're mostly talking about
Speaker 2: big matches, right, really good matches, not even big matches,
Speaker 2: but they don't have a lot of those like big
Speaker 2: like memorable moments to stick in your mind. The thing
Speaker 2: they do get a light or they try to, is
Speaker 2: they tried to have they try to do the big debuts.
Speaker 2: So you had like the Brian and Danielson debuts. You
Speaker 2: remember when they advertised beforehand the mystery signing and it
Speaker 2: was Christian. That was kind of a flop of a debut.
Speaker 2: But the concept, it seems like Tony really likes to
Speaker 2: have his debuts and big returns. Also another kind of
Speaker 2: thing about aw pay per view. But gosh, I'm trying
Speaker 2: to think, do they have any of those big returns
Speaker 2: at Redemption or Big?
Speaker 3: No? And maybe they are switching to doing stuff like
Speaker 3: that on TV now to help the TV readings, But
Speaker 3: they did not. They did not at Redemption. Was it
Speaker 3: the pay per view before that? The j White return?
Speaker 3: Because he did he wrestled on Redemption, but did he
Speaker 3: return at the previous pay per view?
Speaker 2: Yeah? If I could, and I don't know if you
Speaker 2: can keep it up, but it has not been great
Speaker 2: use of Jye. It's about what you expect.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately it never is. Tony will never understand the greatness.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, he thinks putting him at a feud with
Speaker 2: other former Bullet Club guys is the ticket. That's it.
Speaker 2: Everybody love Bullet Club and they want to see old
Speaker 2: Bullet Club against old Bullet Club and that's what they get.
Speaker 2: And now they don't know what to do with Jy.
Speaker 2: It's he is like maybe the worst used wrestler in
Speaker 2: any major company.
Speaker 3: Well, he had a terrible match of Redemption.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, that's a bad, bad, bad match, which is
Speaker 2: crazy because him and Juice have had very good tag
Speaker 2: matches before.
Speaker 3: He was in the ring with pretty much his real
Speaker 3: life best friends, you know, Finley being one of his
Speaker 3: genuine like best friends in life and obviously ju Since
Speaker 3: that's true, and it really didn't go well. The gimmick
Speaker 3: of it, the concept of it seemed quite ridiculous. With
Speaker 3: the way the match went. It wasn't didn't need to
Speaker 3: have it. They didn't. They didn't do any blood or
Speaker 3: extreme violence. And then later in the night another match
Speaker 3: went way extreme on the violence, yes, and it just
Speaker 3: felt like the odds respective against him. He also nearly
Speaker 3: died taking a bump too, because.
Speaker 2: Well he has not been on TV since, so hopefully
Speaker 2: he's not actually out again, but he's been off TV.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Hey everyone, long time PW George commis Sean Radikin here
Speaker 7: to let you know. I've rebamped and renewed the Ratticant
Speaker 7: Worldwide podcast for twenty twenty six, a weekly VIP exclusive.
Speaker 7: Every week, I break down four five of the biggest
Speaker 7: trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis,
Speaker 7: providing insight that helps you understand the story better or
Speaker 7: see it another way. Then maybe is the controversial takeout there?
Speaker 7: Then I bring on a special guest for the second
Speaker 7: half of the podcast. Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone
Speaker 7: else who works in the business. Other times it's a
Speaker 7: guest analyst who brings their specialized point of view out
Speaker 7: a particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have
Speaker 7: included Bronson Reid from WWE and PCO. One of my
Speaker 7: areas of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I
Speaker 7: often cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch
Speaker 7: his own, Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I
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Speaker 7: the news or give a standard hot take. I'll bring
Speaker 7: my decades of studying this industry and talking one on
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Speaker 3: And I guess some people were saying that that's that's
Speaker 3: the worst aw pay per view match ever. I don't
Speaker 3: think it was. I know what I think was, do
Speaker 3: you is there a match that stands out for you
Speaker 3: it's the worst ever?
Speaker 2: Well, because we're talking recent memory, the very bloody match
Speaker 2: that came shortly after this on Redemption, the Tomaso Jericho
Speaker 2: Circus of Blood and power Tools was I genuinely hated it. Also,
Speaker 2: it was way too long. It's so bad. I watched
Speaker 2: it afterwards and I fast forward through Chucksman. I still
Speaker 2: hated it.
Speaker 3: I like some people did like.
Speaker 2: That much that killed I don't understand.
Speaker 3: I honestly think it's people liking the weapon spots or
Speaker 3: like thinking their innovative and then also being like whoa
Speaker 3: really old, dudet did.
Speaker 2: You see Jericho's face painting looks so awesome. It's not
Speaker 2: at all like a clown.
Speaker 3: To me, it's like it's so bad and it's so lame.
Speaker 3: And then you hear certain people be like, well, this
Speaker 3: was a really good like spoke smoking mirrors match, smoking mirrors.
Speaker 3: You should not need smoke and mirrors, right, you should
Speaker 3: not need that. I could handle smoke and mirrors when
Speaker 3: Sting was doing like a couple of matches a year
Speaker 3: and he was Sting, but like this this thing. But also,
Speaker 3: you can't tell me that taking extremely violent spots like
Speaker 3: this and pushing it more and more is not like
Speaker 3: a mid life crisis type deal going on or three
Speaker 3: quarter life crisis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what if you need that much smoke and that
Speaker 2: much mirrors, what you actually need is retirement. With all
Speaker 2: the respect senor Jericho.
Speaker 3: I think the worst match in AW pay perview history
Speaker 3: is I forget what show it was, but it was
Speaker 3: the aforementioned. It was Jericho versus Adam Cole. Do you
Speaker 3: remember this match?
Speaker 2: I remember there being very very bad Jericho and Cole. Matt.
Speaker 2: I don't remember where it was, sure it.
Speaker 3: Was at a double or nothing pretty sure it took
Speaker 3: place in Vegas. I remember thinking that, I'm honest to God,
Speaker 3: and I'm not saying they were, because I'm sure they
Speaker 3: were not. I honest to God, thought they were drunk
Speaker 3: at the time watching this match because there were so
Speaker 3: many like misspots fumbling. They were like when two drunks
Speaker 3: try and fight and they're just hugging each other and
Speaker 3: falling over. There was something about this match that was
Speaker 3: so bizarrely bad, and I believe that it got a
Speaker 3: pretty high rating from Dave, but like higher than women's matches,
Speaker 3: and I think it got like higher than it might
Speaker 3: have been like a Jade Cargo match. This might have
Speaker 3: been where like Jade Cargo had a match and then
Speaker 3: she immediately lost her title to Christatlander. And I'm pretty
Speaker 3: sure that this match was rated like higher than like
Speaker 3: that whole thing. And I was just like, because obviously,
Speaker 3: I'm not saying like Jad was not the best wrestler, right,
Speaker 3: but she's going to do like an eight to ten
Speaker 3: minute thing that is far less offensive than what we
Speaker 3: saw of these men fall over. And that was when
Speaker 3: I stopped, like, not even I stopped reading any kind
Speaker 3: of like star rating type thing, not even to disagree
Speaker 3: with them, and like, I just stopped completely because that
Speaker 3: specific match was so bad that it should have been
Speaker 3: ripped to absolute shreds by anyone objectively trying to talk
Speaker 3: about pro wrestling. That was I think objectively a wholerend
Speaker 3: as much with two people who I don't know what
Speaker 3: was wrong with them, but there was something going on there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's probably some stuff there for a worser,
Speaker 2: better match rating version. Just where we're at with that,
Speaker 2: it's spoiler alert. It's so much worse it used to
Speaker 2: serve a I have no idea what the point of
Speaker 2: these are now, or they're out of control and they
Speaker 2: mean almost nothing.
Speaker 3: I heard some of Meltzer's Redemption mannings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they should have been mostly like threes and forest tops.
Speaker 3: Some of this stuff, Like my god, I want to
Speaker 3: know what he's smoking. Yeah, I forget even what point
Speaker 3: we want, but look, if we won the length point,
Speaker 3: they're too long, but redemption, yeah, that did not need
Speaker 3: to exist.
Speaker 2: Wholly unnecessary. Yeah, I mean we were just.
Speaker 3: Kind of talking about about how they were. Actually they
Speaker 3: are good shows, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: They even the bad ones, like even the poorly built
Speaker 2: in irrelevant ones usually still deliver solid matches because they
Speaker 2: always they just always do. That's just kind of like
Speaker 2: their reputation at this point, which is good for them.
Speaker 2: That works for them. That's why their by rates even
Speaker 2: when the product is cold, usually high. Even when they
Speaker 2: can barely get like three thousand people, and for a
Speaker 2: Dynamite they're still doing like ten thousand at the pay
Speaker 2: per view right after, so.
Speaker 3: Really interesting thing that's kind of hard to explain, but
Speaker 3: they're definitely done with Dynamite attendance and they downscaled that
Speaker 3: as well as far as venues go. They do do
Speaker 3: well with pay per view attendants. But they do keep
Speaker 3: their prices really really reasonable, especially compared to WWE, who
Speaker 3: were like out of control with the pricing in the
Speaker 3: For people in the UK on Blue Light, you can
Speaker 3: get all in tickets for one pound fifty right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that as a kind of gotcha article
Speaker 2: about how aw's failing will be on business next week,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I did see that.
Speaker 3: Well, like the second all in that I went to,
Speaker 3: Beno bought I think he bought three tickets and they
Speaker 3: were like two pounds each. So I went to the
Speaker 3: media bit, I got some snacks, I got some more snacks,
Speaker 3: and then I joined him and watched it from like
Speaker 3: from a normal seat maybe that he had bought ones
Speaker 3: like really far back, and he got moved forward with
Speaker 3: his with me and his imaginary friend that he'd bought
Speaker 3: another ticket for. So we had a great time on
Speaker 3: the cheap tickets. You know, but look cheap tickets. It
Speaker 3: is a little bit of a you know, you are
Speaker 3: playing a little bit of a trick there in order
Speaker 3: to bring up the numbers. But I'd rather people get
Speaker 3: into shows for one pounds fifty then pay the WWE
Speaker 3: prices that when WWE came to my city of Belfast
Speaker 3: earlier this year, those prices were in seeing it was
Speaker 3: a couple hundred per ticket and I would never pay
Speaker 3: that to see WWE, WWE, WAW. And I know that
Speaker 3: when I was a child and when they would come
Speaker 3: to Belfast and it was such a rare, big deal.
Speaker 3: I think it only happened twice in my childhood. There's
Speaker 3: no way like my family could have bought you know,
Speaker 3: tickets that were it's crazy. So it's really bad. So
Speaker 3: at least, yeah, they do you keep the pricing low
Speaker 3: on the tickets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, last week we were talking about wrestling, I guess.
Speaker 2: But anyway, I considered going to Summer Slam this year,
Speaker 2: which is tonight and tomorrow night, and I looked at tickets,
Speaker 2: and I eventually determined it would be cheaper for me
Speaker 2: in American to fly to London and go to All
Speaker 2: in just whole cloth to do that than to try
Speaker 2: to go to SummerSlam, which is like a two hour
Speaker 2: plane flight from where I'm at, which is insane.
Speaker 3: WWE events now for SummerSlam whatever are more expensive than
Speaker 3: like when I was going to America from multiple aw
Speaker 3: pay per views. Obviously, some people were like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: how do you afford that? Like you can get really
Speaker 3: cheap flights to America, like I'm talking like two hundred
Speaker 3: pounds or something if you're smart about it. I think
Speaker 3: that tickets for SummerSlam and the most recent events, especially Vesmenia,
Speaker 3: all of those things are way more than I would
Speaker 3: have ever paid to fly to America, let alone buy
Speaker 3: a ticket for an event.
Speaker 2: And then also it's a two night Summer Slam, so
Speaker 2: you're buying tickets twice, and then you also have to
Speaker 2: you have to stay at least one of those nights
Speaker 2: to go to both of them. It's I'm sure you
Speaker 2: saw that they've dropped tickets all the way down to
Speaker 2: like twenty five dollars at this point for Summer Slam
Speaker 2: because they were doing so badly. It'll be interesting to
Speaker 2: see how they end up turning it up. But it
Speaker 2: was not going well, and mostly I think well product
Speaker 2: is worse, but also like ticket prices, I think were
Speaker 2: a big big part of that. So yeah, AW continues
Speaker 2: to do pretty well on pay per view live because
Speaker 2: they got cheap tickets and they have a reputation for
Speaker 2: over delivering.
Speaker 3: Yes, they over deliver in both a good way and
Speaker 3: a bad way.
Speaker 2: We can say, right, that's a double edged sword, but
Speaker 2: they definitely over deliver. So Stephanie, how do we feel
Speaker 2: about them being at ten per year? And do we
Speaker 2: still consider double or nothing, Revolution, full Gear and all
Speaker 2: Out to be the Big four? I mean, I assume
Speaker 2: all In has to replace one of those.
Speaker 3: I think tens too many. I think this sweet spot
Speaker 3: would be five or six.
Speaker 2: That sounds right, like, I think they can do six,
Speaker 2: like one every two months. That's perfectly fine, plenty of
Speaker 2: time to build up a mat. Do you remember when
Speaker 2: they used to have four and they would still wait
Speaker 2: till like two weeks before the pay per view to
Speaker 2: start putting the card together, like it would be like
Speaker 2: three weeks out you had no idea what was on
Speaker 2: the pay per view.
Speaker 3: I think that Tony's booking strengths do not like they're
Speaker 3: not in the planning.
Speaker 2: They are not.
Speaker 3: They're really not. And I actually think he would find
Speaker 3: it easier if they cut down to six. And I
Speaker 3: think that there's no reason for there to be one
Speaker 3: a month, which is what we're clearly heading towards. I mean,
Speaker 3: that's just a WWE isn't and even that WWE was
Speaker 3: not always on, you know, one a month, Like, uh,
Speaker 3: there's no reason for it, and I don't think it
Speaker 3: suits aw And when you add to this his obsession
Speaker 3: with long shows and long matches, if you were down
Speaker 3: to five or six, people would take that a lot better.
Speaker 3: But if you're going to get to the point where
Speaker 3: every month, on top of Dynamite and Collision and the
Speaker 3: Ring of Honor that no one watches, if you're then
Speaker 3: going to shove in a six hour pay per view
Speaker 3: like it's a lot, and it makes me think, like no,
Speaker 3: wonder people don't get interested anymore because the time investment
Speaker 3: you need to give. It is is God that kind
Speaker 3: of time.
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Speaker 2: And I agree with you and also like from like WrestleMania.
Speaker 2: You used to put up with like a five hour
Speaker 2: WrestleMania because it only happened once a year. I mean
Speaker 2: I would I would take a five hour wrestle Media
Speaker 2: in SummerSlam over in the two night version now. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I think you kind of answered. The next question I
Speaker 2: had was whether or not you think they'll add anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's gone for twelve.
Speaker 2: You think that's it? Do you have any suggestions for
Speaker 2: names for him? I think retribution would be a good one,
Speaker 2: just to keep it confusing.
Speaker 3: Aw overrun over, a out of time, aw value fest,
Speaker 3: value Fest.
Speaker 2: I like that one. I've got to that one. But
Speaker 2: that one's like basically you get your money's worth because
Speaker 2: it goes eight hours.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Do you think he's twelve?
Speaker 2: Is the it's the that's definitely building that way. My
Speaker 2: thought was that he would notice that when he kept
Speaker 2: adding them, that the numbers kept dipping, and the I
Speaker 2: think at this point, I think I think, like we discussed,
Speaker 2: if he had six and he had like they were
Speaker 2: spaced out like evenly, he could like just get like
Speaker 2: a booking cadence down, like you know, you recover from
Speaker 2: last one, you start building the next one and just
Speaker 2: have like a rhythm, whereas now they're just not only
Speaker 2: are there ten of them, but they're not like evenly
Speaker 2: spread out. They get like weirdly close to each other,
Speaker 2: especially all in and all out and forbidden doors always
Speaker 2: going to be like a speed bump that like distracts
Speaker 2: from where you're trying to go with your actual booking.
Speaker 2: But yes, I think he's going to add more and
Speaker 2: I think it's going to make things worse and more
Speaker 2: complicated and chaotic. Yeah, an interesting thing with a W.
Speaker 2: Like when they came around like WW and it pretty
Speaker 2: much already given up pay per views kind of they
Speaker 2: weren't they had they had the network, Which is crazy
Speaker 2: because during this time I was not watching rawers back down,
Speaker 2: but I was still watching the pay per views because
Speaker 2: I had the WW network. Why not? So they make
Speaker 2: a lot of money on their paper dus views. But
Speaker 2: do you think like AW will ever move? Well, they
Speaker 2: got my AEW thing overseas. I guess it's you might
Speaker 2: already know what it's like to have AW kind of
Speaker 2: on a streaming situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we've got my my a W. And before that,
Speaker 3: we had fight TV where you could buy the pay
Speaker 3: per views and you got the Dynamite as well. So
Speaker 3: I don't, like, I don't know enough about the pay
Speaker 3: per view business in America or how much Americans are
Speaker 3: willing to pay or where things are at, but I
Speaker 3: do feel that the world seems to be moving towards
Speaker 3: streaming and maybe they would benefit from being on a service.
Speaker 3: And I don't mean aw, but like, but are they
Speaker 3: on Is there a Warner Brothers service that they're on too? Like?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Well, so in America they stream dynam They stream Collision
Speaker 2: and Dynamite on Hbox, which I have, and that's actually
Speaker 2: how I watch most weeks, and they this year they
Speaker 2: started doing the pay per views on there, but they
Speaker 2: still cost forty dollars. You get like a ten dollars
Speaker 2: break in the price to watch it, and so fine, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I half the time I still just buy it on
Speaker 2: Amazon because it's not worth like logging into and also
Speaker 2: because my wife doesn't question Amazon purchases because she makes
Speaker 2: so many of them.
Speaker 3: She just goes right past her nice tactic. It's always
Speaker 3: shocked me how much Americans pay for pay per view.
Speaker 3: That could not be me like that, that those prices
Speaker 3: don't happen over here.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure, like on Fight or whatever,
Speaker 3: they will always twenty twenty pounds or less, but I
Speaker 3: would always find a way to get free fight credits,
Speaker 3: So I would think I ever, like like paid to
Speaker 3: watch them. But I really I don't know, because I
Speaker 3: think the factors are hard to predict because it's like,
Speaker 3: where's the market going, what's gonna happen with the Warner
Speaker 3: brothers entire situation that's going on there, that's right, you know,
Speaker 3: like all of that. But it would make sense for
Speaker 3: them to be on you know, like a stream more
Speaker 3: onto streaming, But it can't just be my AW because
Speaker 3: it will end up like the network, because if the
Speaker 3: network can sustain itself, would and would will my AAW
Speaker 3: even though they're adding in other shows.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, I don't think you're that's a
Speaker 2: good point, like if the WWE network can say itself
Speaker 2: and it was way bigger than AAW has ever been. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because at some point WWE moved on two p and
Speaker 2: though they're on ESPN now like they've been going back
Speaker 2: and forth too. So yeah, yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker 2: asked that question because I don't have an answer to that.
Speaker 2: But in general, pay per views are going away. Even UFC,
Speaker 2: which used to make most of us money's pay per
Speaker 2: views mostly streaming. Now almost nothing's on pay per view
Speaker 2: except for AWS.
Speaker 3: It seems don't I don't know what it's like in America,
Speaker 3: but over here like it sucks anyone talk about pay
Speaker 3: per view. I'm not sure young people know what pay
Speaker 3: per view is. It's not like it used to be.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think young people even know anything about
Speaker 2: going to the record store and buying an album and
Speaker 2: listening to twelve songs, Like they don't understand what a
Speaker 2: single is or anything. There's a whole different thing going
Speaker 2: on there. So that might be if he wants to
Speaker 2: look to the future, he might be needing to dump
Speaker 2: pay per view off because we've got a generation coming
Speaker 2: up here used to paying a flat rate and getting
Speaker 2: all that they want of whatever they want. So they
Speaker 2: should love those six hour pay per views, but they're
Speaker 2: not going to pay for them individually. In pieces. It
Speaker 2: seems to be into something.
Speaker 3: Else that is true, like our you know, that's that
Speaker 3: is not how we operate as a culture anymore. Like
Speaker 3: it's not as it. You just pay your Netflix, you
Speaker 3: pay your Prime. Paying for one off things is no.
Speaker 2: Well, all right, Sephanie. I think we've had a pretty
Speaker 2: end depth discussion on AEW's pay per views. In the
Speaker 2: pay per view model such as it is, I guess
Speaker 2: we should do the thing, you know, the thing I'm
Speaker 2: talking about, Yeah, the thing the show.
Speaker 3: Yeah, worse or better?
Speaker 2: So I'm going to say it is now we're talking
Speaker 2: at aw pay per views. It's worse, especially just coming
Speaker 2: off of Redemption, which is maybe the worst pay per
Speaker 2: view they've done. So I think just by too many
Speaker 2: pay per views, it's worse in that way. I think
Speaker 2: the quality has dipped, Redemption being a good example, and
Speaker 2: also Forbidden Door being completely irrelevant and not great. That's
Speaker 2: a pretty good dip. I think we're much worse. I
Speaker 2: think we were way better when we had four. I
Speaker 2: think four, even though you and I decided like successes
Speaker 2: maybe like the good balance. I think we were better
Speaker 2: off in twenty nineteen when we had four big pay
Speaker 2: per views to look to, and I didn't care that
Speaker 2: it went five hours, because four times a year I
Speaker 2: can make that kind of thing. But I think ten
Speaker 2: like six hour pay per views a year. It's too much.
Speaker 2: It's much much worse. Although I'm willing to listen to
Speaker 2: your opinion.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think it's absolutely worse.
Speaker 2: I thought maybe I think it's worse.
Speaker 3: I'm a true heater of the length. I don't like
Speaker 3: that that there's ten or whatever that would get into twelve.
Speaker 3: I wish it was back to the old days. I
Speaker 3: wish I could be excited again when an AHw pay
Speaker 3: per view comes on. So it is worse, and that
Speaker 3: is not a judgment on the match quality or anything
Speaker 3: like that. I mean the actual situation of the pay
Speaker 3: per views and all of the things we've talked about.
Speaker 2: It is worse, right, I think we have said several
Speaker 2: times like they always deliver on pay per view. They're
Speaker 2: usually good. Even Redemption, which we have shit all over,
Speaker 2: basically delivered. So yeah, it's worse. And also I think
Speaker 2: it's worse in the sense that having the tennis and
Speaker 2: they are running together, they used to kind of stand
Speaker 2: out more. You could remember moments better, matches better, and
Speaker 2: they used to have to put more work into a thing,
Speaker 2: and they don't do this now. But do you remember,
Speaker 2: like when wwe used to have like a pay per
Speaker 2: view and they would have like this crazy stage set
Speaker 2: up and it was very memorable. Like you'd see a
Speaker 2: clip from me'd be like, oh, yeah, that was Judgment
Speaker 2: Day in nineteen ninety seven. I remember the stage. Like.
Speaker 2: I think if they had less pay per views to
Speaker 2: deal with, they could like put more like elbow grease
Speaker 2: into them, like really make them stand out more too.
Speaker 2: It would also be helpful because they are really running
Speaker 2: together that.
Speaker 3: First Double or Nothing with the chips and walks on
Speaker 3: the poker chips.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's as it's a visual. I remember it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 2: I have no idea what Double or Nothing twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three looked like, though they're all out twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: All right, Stephanie, it's worse. The pay per views are.
Speaker 2: The pay per view in a pay per view system
Speaker 2: is worse. The pay per views are still.
Speaker 3: Good the pay per view.
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to All in. I think it's gonna
Speaker 2: be a good show. I'm excited about it almost, and
Speaker 2: I'm not excited about SummerSlam, which I'm watching tonight and
Speaker 2: tomorrow night.
Speaker 3: I'm not excited for SummerSlam at all. I'm definitely not
Speaker 3: staying up for it. I think it starts like half
Speaker 3: an hour, but I'm not staying up for it. I
Speaker 3: am not going to all in, even though it would
Speaker 3: be only a short plan ride for me to London.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I just like I have no desire to.
Speaker 3: I don't want to go to Wambley again to watch wrestling,
Speaker 3: and it's not even like a convenient time for me
Speaker 3: to be going. So I'm very glad I'm not going
Speaker 3: because if I had decided to go because my friends
Speaker 3: were going or whatever, I know I'd regret it as
Speaker 3: soon as I sat down in the arena.
Speaker 2: I'm the same way. It happens to me like I
Speaker 2: go to concert sometimes, Like I'll go, I'll sit down
Speaker 2: and be like it'll start, I'll be into It'll be
Speaker 2: like I'm really looking forward to this being over it,
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna be at home thinking about it instead
Speaker 2: of being stuck at it. That's actually me anytime I
Speaker 2: leave the house.
Speaker 3: To be honest with you, I totally understand that. I
Speaker 3: understand that. But you know, I think I only get
Speaker 3: it at wrestling because there was just too many. I
Speaker 3: think other things I find more novel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well again, there's so many wrestling things to go
Speaker 2: to that they're not novel at all, all right, So
Speaker 2: if we lay it on Worse, I am open to
Speaker 2: hearing other people's opinions on that is more better, like
Speaker 2: more pay per views, longer pay per views? Are these better?
Speaker 2: Are there people that actually believe that? If you're one
Speaker 2: of those people, email Worse Are Better show at gmail
Speaker 2: dot com and Stephanie and I will argue with you.
Speaker 2: And since you next week or the week after. Actually, Stephanie,
Speaker 2: we have a bulletin. Stephanie is traveling next week. She's
Speaker 2: not going to be here next week, not to wrestling show.
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm off to the great city of Liverpool to
Speaker 3: celebrate my future sister in law's wedding, so yes, I'll
Speaker 3: be doing that. So I guess you're going to find
Speaker 3: another partner, Josh.
Speaker 2: I will track down somebody. But definitely, if you want
Speaker 2: to listen to the show without commercials, or you want
Speaker 2: to listen to other shows that you don't want to
Speaker 2: listen to, you can go VIP with the PW Torch.
Speaker 2: There you can listen to this show with the commercials,
Speaker 2: more shows. You get the backlogs and issues on PW Torch.
Speaker 2: All good stuff, easily worth the ten dollars, like when
Speaker 2: it comes out every month in my little phone buzzes,
Speaker 2: I go, oh okay, not like when Netflix comes out,
Speaker 2: I go oh damn, I need a can. What am
Speaker 2: I doing with that? But when the Torch comes out,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh yeah, I made a good purchase one
Speaker 2: time at least. So I recommend that you can go
Speaker 2: to PW Torch dot com, slash go vip that's how
Speaker 2: you do that. Other than that, Stephanie, do you have
Speaker 2: anything you want to add for these lovely people listening
Speaker 2: not at home, they're probably in their cars. I listen
Speaker 2: mostly in my car.
Speaker 3: No, just thank you. I'm going to say good night
Speaker 3: because I think once again you've seen me go from
Speaker 3: light to dark.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is dark where you are again, even though
Speaker 2: it's bright light when we started. Not as bad as
Speaker 2: the SummerSlam episode because we didn't do every pay per
Speaker 2: view this time. But we'll talk to Stephanie in two weeks,
Speaker 2: and you guys are also welcome. Listen next week for
Speaker 2: a surprise topic with a surprise guest. Until then, Stephanie,
Speaker 2: thank you once again, have a great night, Thank.
Speaker 3: You, Josh, goodbye everyone.
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