Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What's going to happen? What I Welcome back to the
Speaker 2: occult Rejects. Today we're joined by a returning guest whose
Speaker 2: work lives at the fascinating crossroads with symbolism, intuition, ritual
Speaker 2: and interpretation. All meet. Christina Ferrella is an astrologer, divination educator,
Speaker 2: founder of Eighth House Astrology, author of Divination for Dummies,
Speaker 2: and co host of Sora Mystica with Marianna Lewis, a
Speaker 2: podcast exploring modern spirituality through symbol, myth and mystic inquiry.
Speaker 2: What makes Christina especially compelling is that her approach doesn't
Speaker 2: reduce divination to novelty or shallow fortune telling. She treats
Speaker 2: it as something much richer, a symbolic art, a spiritual discipline,
Speaker 2: and a serious practice of learning how meaning speaks through images, patterns,
Speaker 2: ritual and intuition. The same spirit is all over Divination
Speaker 2: for Dummies, which she describes as a grounded, well researched
Speaker 2: introduction for people who want to actually learn how to
Speaker 2: divine rather than just skim the surface. And this book
Speaker 2: really does open the door wide. It walks readers through
Speaker 2: a broad range of divinatory systems, including taro, numerology, astrology, palmistry, scrying,
Speaker 2: and even bone throwing. It walks readers through a broad
Speaker 2: range of divinatory systems including taro, numerology, astrology, palmistry, and scrying,
Speaker 2: all while also giving attention to ritual tools, origins, daily practice,
Speaker 2: and the building of confidence as a reader. So it's
Speaker 2: not just a book about what divination is. It's also
Speaker 2: about how to begin, how to practice, and how to
Speaker 2: develop a real relationship with these traditions and in a
Speaker 2: thoughtful and usable way. So today we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about Christina's path, her work, her podcast in this new book,
Speaker 2: what divenetion really is, why it hasn't dared across cultures
Speaker 2: for so long, and what these systems can still offer
Speaker 2: to beginners, practitioners and the merely curious. I like not
Speaker 2: before I introduce the co host and the guest. I
Speaker 2: do have an announcement to make. We do have the
Speaker 2: website a Cult Research Institute dot org. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff on there if you like to read, so
Speaker 2: check it out. And if you're interested, there are two
Speaker 2: styles of shirts on there. And now let me introduce
Speaker 2: the co host Headlet's Giant. My man, what is going on?
Speaker 1: How you doing? I've got the you know, normal road
Speaker 1: rage going on outside of my window. But it's great
Speaker 1: to be here. You can check out my show on
Speaker 1: the Headless Giant YouTube channel and on x and on
Speaker 1: Instagram as well. So thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for coming on man. I was looking
Speaker 2: forward to this one. And Christina, please, if there's anything
Speaker 2: I left out or anything like the plug a mension,
Speaker 2: please let everybody know.
Speaker 3: Oh well, I'm really happy to be back. It's really
Speaker 3: nice to be sharing space with you both. I'm excited
Speaker 3: for a conversation. And I think that the one thing
Speaker 3: that I'll plug besides sore Mystica, which is my podcast
Speaker 3: with my friend Marianna who I was on recently with,
Speaker 3: is my class. It's the School of Astrological Arcana. It's
Speaker 3: my kind of I call it my big class. It's
Speaker 3: my ten week immersion course in the art of chart interpretation.
Speaker 3: So this is for budding astrologers out there, people who
Speaker 3: want to either become professional astrologers in their own right,
Speaker 3: or people who are just really really passionate about astrology
Speaker 3: and want a supportive, kind of rich, immersive learning environment
Speaker 3: to actually understand how to read your chart from top
Speaker 3: to bottom. So that's beginning on April twenty ninth, and
Speaker 3: I have founding cohort pricing going on right now through
Speaker 3: April tenth, so if anybody wants to enroll, they can
Speaker 3: jump in and save a well cash before that happens.
Speaker 3: And yeah, feels so silly being salesy, but anyway, it's
Speaker 3: not a sales the environment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, shirts feel stupid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yes, So I'd love to
Speaker 3: have anybody who's listening and is a fan of the
Speaker 3: show in our spring coport, so you can learn more
Speaker 3: about that in links that I'm sure will be available.
Speaker 3: But my website, Christinafarrella dot com has a big banner
Speaker 3: for the school up at the top and you can
Speaker 3: check it out there.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, thank you very much. And I do highly
Speaker 2: suggest I know I've said it before, I think when
Speaker 2: you were on for our listeners, if you you know,
Speaker 2: if you're into this show, I really do think you
Speaker 2: will find a lot of value in their podcast. I
Speaker 2: think they're kind of very much on the same page
Speaker 2: in a sense, So definitely go check it out. Please.
Speaker 2: It's great stuff and definitely check out their books and
Speaker 2: their work. I think it's, you know, a value, which
Speaker 2: is why I have them on. So Christina, you know,
Speaker 2: I might have like some questions here that might almost
Speaker 2: you like a little bit kind of how it was
Speaker 2: in the last show, only because it's just kind of
Speaker 2: the way I start off. But for people meeting you
Speaker 2: for the first time, maybe they didn't catch you the
Speaker 2: last time that you were on. Who is Christina and
Speaker 2: what first drew you into astrology and divination?
Speaker 3: I have no idea who Christina is, but what I
Speaker 3: think me.
Speaker 2: Into yo first place. Second I looked at your name,
Speaker 2: I was like, Yo, did I just suck up a name?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Sorry? I was like, fun, that's good, No, just doing
Speaker 3: just doing existential comedy. No, So yeah, I'm Christina. Yes,
Speaker 3: it's true. And I think that, you know, what first
Speaker 3: drew me into all of this. Honestly, I think that
Speaker 3: I was raised in like a very strict Irish Italian
Speaker 3: Roman Catholic household, and church was really really important in
Speaker 3: that environment. And I'm, you know, just we were just
Speaker 3: always in and very involved with the church growing up.
Speaker 3: And you know, when I was a teenager, I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, this is fake, the church sucks, blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. So I had like my break with all
Speaker 3: of that ideology. But what I think stayed with me
Speaker 3: was this truth that God is in nature and we
Speaker 3: are part of that. And so I always have been
Speaker 3: that sort of like woo woo, I don't know, just
Speaker 3: like a sensitive soul who like loves nature and animals
Speaker 3: and the ocean and the stars and stuff. And the
Speaker 3: older I got, the more I probably struggled to figure
Speaker 3: out who I am, why I am the way I am,
Speaker 3: And just by chance, I think I bumped into a
Speaker 3: book on astrology in like borders a million years ago
Speaker 3: and started learning about what that might be.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Of course, I knew my horoscope from reading like fashion
Speaker 3: magazines as a young girl, but I didn't know anything
Speaker 3: more about it from the horoscope, so kind of like
Speaker 3: tiptoeing towards it, tiptoeing around it. I really got into
Speaker 3: it when I first got to college and you know,
Speaker 3: started to really want to know myself and know how
Speaker 3: to understand other people. And I found that astrology gave
Speaker 3: us such a fascinating language and an accurate one for
Speaker 3: describing the people in my life and myself so I
Speaker 3: think that I always approached astrology as yes, this mystical system,
Speaker 3: but also you know, before I knew about the deep
Speaker 3: mysticism of it, it seemed like a really great way
Speaker 3: to just have extra language to describe your experience, which
Speaker 3: I think we can always use more of as humans
Speaker 3: in this world. So, you know, that was kind of
Speaker 3: like the opening of the door. And then regarding you know,
Speaker 3: occult stuff that's harder to pinpoint. I think there's a
Speaker 3: lot of subtle occultism in Italian culture and Italian Catholic
Speaker 3: culture specifically. That was like kind of the like, both
Speaker 3: both sides of my family are very rich in traditions,
Speaker 3: but you know, there's something about the Italian stuff that
Speaker 3: was just kind of like witchy and present, and so
Speaker 3: I was super curious about that. And you know, I
Speaker 3: don't know, one thing led to another and before you
Speaker 3: know it, you're practicing which in your bedroom in Brooklyn
Speaker 3: and doing spells. So I think that being led though
Speaker 3: by ancestral tradition is something like that was my doorway
Speaker 3: into practice, not really reaching for things like too outside
Speaker 3: of my culture, but really using it as a way
Speaker 3: to get connected with my family and ancestral stories and
Speaker 3: things like that that I think we're lost. So that's
Speaker 3: an answer that I can give there. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: I got to hop In so I got to know
Speaker 1: you said Italian. Have you looked into the lost Italian
Speaker 1: art of augury being able to divide symbols from the birds?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yes. The most recent thinking I've done about augury
Speaker 3: is I recently reread the Odyssey and there's so much
Speaker 3: bird omen stuff in that book and I was really
Speaker 3: I was fascinated about that. I wrote a piece about it.
Speaker 3: I thought it was really interesting. But yeah, that's one
Speaker 3: of the oldest forms of divination, at least in the
Speaker 3: Greco Roman tradition, specifically Roman. Actually right, it's totally fascinating.
Speaker 3: So yeah, what's your augury relationship?
Speaker 1: Well, I just see how it was integral to the
Speaker 1: processing and creating of the Greek Roban religion, especially in Rome.
Speaker 1: They had the College of Augurs, and that was sixteen
Speaker 1: of these augurs who were skilled and you know, all
Speaker 1: the forms of divination that you've mentioned with astrology and
Speaker 1: all these other things, but specifically they would you know,
Speaker 1: divine the auspices before battles and things like this, and
Speaker 1: they would do that by putting out a grid pattern
Speaker 1: and watching the birds and how they moved across these things.
Speaker 1: And to me, it brings up the images of murmuration, right,
Speaker 1: So as these birds are murmurating through the sky, you
Speaker 1: get different images and different associations through it, and they
Speaker 1: would be looking at it on a grid pattern and seeing,
Speaker 1: you know, the easterlye westerly movements of these different birds
Speaker 1: and how these you know, associate with these other things.
Speaker 1: And this is how they would then draw from the
Speaker 1: College of Augers into the ponte Vex Maximus. So this
Speaker 1: College of Augers was basically the lower level to the
Speaker 1: higher level traditions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so cool. It's so interesting and like I think,
Speaker 3: you know, now, even if you're driving on the highway
Speaker 3: and it's a drive where you're like thinking about something
Speaker 3: heavy or thinking about something deep, and then all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, like a giant redtail hawk flies in front
Speaker 3: of you, it always feels like a sign or a symbol.
Speaker 3: And I take that stuff seriously, so, you know, I
Speaker 3: think it's just like innate thing that we do as people.
Speaker 3: But I love that the Romans codified it. It's so
Speaker 3: it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: Right, and each one of these different birds have their
Speaker 1: associations with the gods, so you know, the red tailed
Speaker 1: hawk being associated with Apollo or Horus and these other
Speaker 1: symbols that it's almost like Pan Mediterranean how they they
Speaker 1: sort of syncretize these things. So not only were you
Speaker 1: seeing a bird, but you were seeing the representation of
Speaker 1: the god on earth.
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely, Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: Yes, that sounds really interesting. I don't look into that one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've only I've heard of it here and there. I
Speaker 2: think I've heard Headla's mention it before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've got a guy in the chat who's talking
Speaker 3: about the lamb livers of the sheep livers too, because
Speaker 3: that was also another thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, heriustracy and they would divine using the actual intrails
Speaker 1: of these animals.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, there's even like all you could
Speaker 3: find old maps kind of like a divination map of
Speaker 3: the liver carved into stone or pressed onto metal plates
Speaker 3: from you know, thousands and thousands of years ago that
Speaker 3: are really fascinating to look at because, yeah, depending on
Speaker 3: the condition of the liver and spots on it or
Speaker 3: colors or the shape of it or the texture omens
Speaker 3: would be good or would be bad. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm glad we don't have to do animal sacrifice to
Speaker 3: divine anymore.
Speaker 1: Though it makes me say, right, but it brings up
Speaker 1: sort of like we have symbols like that, and are
Speaker 1: you know common divination now with little caterpillars? How how
Speaker 1: long that band is, whether or not you're going to
Speaker 1: have a good summer or good winter and things like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's some of this stuff that has actually
Speaker 1: survived in sort of the folk tradition today.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, right, there's so many, yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 4: many traditions because it's something that humans automatically do.
Speaker 3: We're always automatically looking for signs. And it's not because
Speaker 3: we're nutty or irrational, but because it's just part of
Speaker 3: the human condition to want to connect I think, with
Speaker 3: nature in that way. So yeah, I think that that's
Speaker 3: something that's really important to preserve, and that's what I
Speaker 3: try to do in my work.
Speaker 2: Nice. One thing I did want to ask you too,
Speaker 2: You have a strong academic and mythic side to your work.
Speaker 2: How did your background in Western intellectual traditions shape the
Speaker 2: way you approached divination if it did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, grad school was a really good way to I'm
Speaker 3: not going to say by time, but it was a
Speaker 3: good way to fill up my intellectual reserves. And I
Speaker 3: think that, you know, I've always loved school. I really
Speaker 3: loved college in like a genuine way. It was really
Speaker 3: sad that it was over from an academic perspective, which
Speaker 3: was like, really, I was sad that I was going
Speaker 3: to lose library access after I graduated undergrad. That's sad.
Speaker 3: And so I think that when I was doing my
Speaker 3: master's at the Cunigrad Center here in New York, that
Speaker 3: program was a very open ended one, and so I
Speaker 3: wound up naturally just kind of cobbling together a curriculum
Speaker 3: for myself that kind of like what Marianne was talking
Speaker 3: about last time. She really focused on like archetypal exploration
Speaker 3: YOUNGI and ideas medieval texts, and I was able to
Speaker 3: do so much good reading of like classical Greek drama,
Speaker 3: and it really really inspired me because it was an
Speaker 3: immersion into that world. And in Greek drama there's so
Speaker 3: much replication of ritual and so much replication of like
Speaker 3: these archetypal things like grief and mourning or you know,
Speaker 3: the kind of psychic entanglements of mother daughter relationships, Like
Speaker 3: every aspect of learning about classical literature gave me something
Speaker 3: to think about and to integrate into my occult practice.
Speaker 3: Is weirdly enough, and so that was so super enriching
Speaker 3: and it really did help me. It kind of what
Speaker 3: I really wound up focusing on in that program was
Speaker 3: I was really it became very obsessed with ancient Greek
Speaker 3: funerary traditions and specifically like the female led lament, because
Speaker 3: I was experiencing some grief and loss in my family
Speaker 3: at that time and was really struck by how there
Speaker 3: was like no place for it in normal workaday world.
Speaker 3: A lot of sad shit was happening, and I was
Speaker 3: just like going to work and going to school and
Speaker 3: it felt really awful. And so I became obsessed with
Speaker 3: like what the power of ritualizing death could do. And
Speaker 3: I think that that led me into a whole world
Speaker 3: of ritual around the soul and ghosts for lack of
Speaker 3: you know whatever a more academic term. So yeah, that
Speaker 3: was a very I'm very grateful that I had that
Speaker 3: time that was very special.
Speaker 1: Well, jug the Goat posted just at the perfect time.
Speaker 1: He was talking about his connection with cardinals and deer,
Speaker 1: and when he sees cardinals and deer, they're always together,
Speaker 1: and that sort of shows him that his loved ones
Speaker 1: are looking in on him from the after language.
Speaker 3: It's beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's a very beautiful thing. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't understand the connection between, you know, the
Speaker 1: soul and these different animals. You know, it seemed to
Speaker 1: be a lot more stated, you know, if you think
Speaker 1: about the what are they called the Esop's fables, right,
Speaker 1: they would ascribe certain personality types to these animals to
Speaker 1: teach you a lesson, but also you could see those
Speaker 1: type of personality types in the people, so they almost
Speaker 1: had a certain type of animals soul to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see this comment that cardinals comes up for
Speaker 3: a lost love one. I hear that all the time.
Speaker 3: And my own mom attributes her mom's spirit to the
Speaker 3: cardinal that lives in her backyard. And it's interesting that
Speaker 3: we make these associations without like discussing it with other people,
Speaker 3: and you know, just like across time. It's it's really fascinating,
Speaker 3: and I think that, you know, animals are like soul creatures.
Speaker 3: You know. I have two cats and I feel like
Speaker 3: they're extensions of soul in my house all of the time.
Speaker 3: And if I'm not mistaken, I think that Yung said
Speaker 3: that when we dream about animals, it's like we're dreaming
Speaker 3: about that sort of wild, untamed version of soul that
Speaker 3: we carry with us, and so it's important to have
Speaker 3: a relationship with them. And yeah, yes, totally agree that
Speaker 3: we need, you know, more more awareness of that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think that's That's one of the things about
Speaker 1: divina that people don't realize is that it's more connecting
Speaker 1: than it is a separation, you know. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people feel like you're separating from the body
Speaker 1: or separating from nature when you're doing divinatory practices, but
Speaker 1: it's actually the opposite. You're you're bringing more in than
Speaker 1: you are, you know, expelling out and going on spirit
Speaker 1: journeys and these other things. But you know, it brings
Speaker 1: up scrying, right, So I think some of the most
Speaker 1: ancient forms of scrying have to do with water. And
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts about water scrying.
Speaker 3: I love water scrying. I think that scrying is so
Speaker 3: is so interesting because it seems so intimidating, but it's actually,
Speaker 3: again one of these these tools where your mind like
Speaker 3: naturally seeks connection and seeks symbols. So for anyone who's
Speaker 3: listening and they're like, what are they talking about, scrying
Speaker 3: is the art of looking into a surface. So it
Speaker 3: can be a bowl of water. It can also be
Speaker 3: a black mirror. It can be a crystal ball. That's
Speaker 3: like the typical you know, you see like a fortune
Speaker 3: teller in a movie and they're like looking at their
Speaker 3: crystal while they're scrying. You can also scry in fire,
Speaker 3: and I actually sometimes prefer to do that with a candle.
Speaker 3: But you know, thinking about the kind of universal access
Speaker 3: or the universal presence i should say, of water all
Speaker 3: through human experience, it's really interesting that we took like
Speaker 3: this very very essential resource and said this has the secret,
Speaker 3: this has an image. For me, this is hiding information,
Speaker 3: but I'm going to divine it and make it, you know,
Speaker 3: come out and reveal itself. And so, yeah, scrying is
Speaker 3: fascinating because, and this is true for a lot of divination,
Speaker 3: you're doing it with tools that are totally ordinary, like
Speaker 3: this glass of water here, it's holding information probably, you know.
Speaker 3: And so I think that a lot of divination early forms,
Speaker 3: especially we're done with water, fire, bones, shells, sticks, herbs. Right,
Speaker 3: And that's again saying like this is a nature based practice.
Speaker 1: I think at bottom, right, there's something to this sort
Speaker 1: of universal elementalism that comes along with scrying. You know,
Speaker 1: bones having to do with Saturn, and you know, the
Speaker 1: water having to do with all of these different water
Speaker 1: nymphs and spirits. And it's using your eyes and your
Speaker 1: senses to sort of see past just what's in front
Speaker 1: of you. It's something something is there without being you
Speaker 1: know fully in the moment, something eternal.
Speaker 3: Totally.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, you're getting into the divination stuff now,
Speaker 2: basically talking about the book, what made you want to
Speaker 2: write Divination for Dummies specifically and wine? Now?
Speaker 3: So it was it was offered to me by someone's agent,
Speaker 3: like they needed they I think that, And I say
Speaker 3: that not to say I didn't want to write it,
Speaker 3: but it just kind of appeared to me, which was cool.
Speaker 3: So that was very lucky and I'm grateful for that opportunity.
Speaker 3: The reason why I thought I could do it though,
Speaker 3: was that I am just a collector of divinatory tools,
Speaker 3: you know, I've always been super curious about knowing all
Speaker 3: of these different methods. So I'm not an expert in
Speaker 3: everything that I wrote about in the book. I would
Speaker 3: consider myself most expert in astrology in Taro, but you know,
Speaker 3: there are I've spent a lot of time experimenting on
Speaker 3: my own with these tools. So when someone you know,
Speaker 3: propositioned me about it, I was like, oh, yeah, I
Speaker 3: could do that. That sounds fun, you know, so a
Speaker 3: little daunting. Once I got into it, I was like,
Speaker 3: oh shit, there's a lot. There's a lot here because
Speaker 3: I felt strongly about giving an historical perspective for a
Speaker 3: lot of these tools in addition to the like the
Speaker 3: practical how to aspect of it, because I think that
Speaker 3: that's important, so that we're creating connection the lineages of
Speaker 3: these tools rather than just being like, oh, I'm going
Speaker 3: to throw runes now. I have no idea what any
Speaker 3: of this comes from. Like, I'm very against that, but yeah,
Speaker 3: I thought that I could do it because I'm a
Speaker 3: little crazy and I have a lot of mercury, strong
Speaker 3: mercury energy in my chart. That's what I'll say.
Speaker 2: Thank you, hell Is, did you have anything?
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think a lot of people are intimidated by
Speaker 1: the crystal ball and they're not sure what they're looking for,
Speaker 1: and they're kind of unsure what kind of signs and
Speaker 1: symbols they're supposed to be looking for in the scrying process.
Speaker 1: Is there a way you could help them out on
Speaker 1: that journey and sort of connect with what they're seeing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So I would recommend number one, making
Speaker 3: sure that you are in a very chill, receptive state
Speaker 3: before you start any divination practice. Right, some of the
Speaker 3: worst divination experiences come when we're anxious or when we're
Speaker 3: really looking for answers and we are trying to control outcomes, right,
Speaker 3: So number one, we have to kind of get grounded
Speaker 3: and however you like to do that, that's the best
Speaker 3: way to do it. And I talk about this in
Speaker 3: the book a lot of just like the importance of
Speaker 3: setting the tone for your space. So number one, calm down.
Speaker 3: Number two, I would say that the symbols and signs
Speaker 3: that are shown to us in something like a crystal
Speaker 3: ball or a black mirror or a cup of water
Speaker 3: are almost always going to be the language of the unconscious.
Speaker 3: So it's not going to it's it's oftentimes super kind
Speaker 3: of essential symbolic information that we're seeing. You see the
Speaker 3: shape of a letter. You see something that looks like
Speaker 3: a sword, you see something looks like a rabbit, and
Speaker 3: I want you to not overthink what you see there,
Speaker 3: but take it seriously because when we start saying that
Speaker 3: what I don't understand what does the sword have to
Speaker 3: do with this question? That's the symbol that's been presented
Speaker 3: to you, and it's meant for you to take into
Speaker 3: your heart and into consideration. I think the other thing
Speaker 3: about scrying and all forms of divination is that you're
Speaker 3: not going to get like the lights turned on right away.
Speaker 3: I mean, sometimes that happens, but very much more often
Speaker 3: you're going to be in a place of needing to
Speaker 3: commune with that symbol and integrate it into your experience
Speaker 3: before it really kind of feels empowering, right, So, I
Speaker 3: think there can be just a lot of anxiety around
Speaker 3: doing it the right way. Trust what you see. I
Speaker 3: think that that's important to do.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. I think recording first and then interpreting later,
Speaker 1: because that's absolutely you're always getting caught up on the
Speaker 1: what you're seeing and trying to figure it out. But
Speaker 1: even at the Oracle of Delphi, like it was the
Speaker 1: oracle's job to just put all the information out there
Speaker 1: and then it would be interpreted later, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people get hung up on the simultaneous process of
Speaker 1: recording and interpreting, which is you know, distracting.
Speaker 3: Very Yeah, that's why the oracle had the profides the
Speaker 3: priests there to take down the you know, the prophecies
Speaker 3: for her. Yeah, it is a kind of dual like,
Speaker 3: it's a dual nature thing. We're doing something highly irrational
Speaker 3: and then trying to make it sensible to ourselves so
Speaker 3: that we can actually like answer the question that we
Speaker 3: post to whatever our tool is, you know. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's an exercise like anything else. We have to kind
Speaker 3: of build the muscle for sure.
Speaker 2: You know when you think of people like I guess,
Speaker 2: taking down, noting what the other person's experiencing whatever, you
Speaker 2: do get a lot of that with I mean technically
Speaker 2: that was even Alista Crowley's experience. You know, he dictated
Speaker 2: to Rose. You see a lot of things that are
Speaker 2: actually done that way. That's just very interesting to look at.
Speaker 2: I don't know, dynamic, h yeah, you see, uh see
Speaker 2: some interesting stuff come to be from the uh. One
Speaker 2: thing I did want to ask you do have a
Speaker 2: lot of methods in this book, you have like taaro astrology, numerology, palmistry, rooms,
Speaker 2: pendulum work, tea leaves, bone throwing, scrying, dream interpretation. How
Speaker 2: did you decide actually, like which ones were going to
Speaker 2: be included?
Speaker 3: Again like, yeah, I thought to myself, what are like
Speaker 3: the classics? What are the classic ones that people jump
Speaker 3: into first? You know, so you'll notice, like I don't
Speaker 3: have geomancy in there. I have like at I have
Speaker 3: like a couple of pages on guomancy, but I'm not
Speaker 3: teaching people geomancy. But what do people want to know?
Speaker 3: They want to know how to read their palm, they
Speaker 3: want to know how to read their tea leaves, like
Speaker 3: these kinds of you know, these they felt very accessible
Speaker 3: to me, the methods that I incorporated here, and I
Speaker 3: want to people to feel like they had a good
Speaker 3: basis and understanding what I think are the most accepted
Speaker 3: sort of standardized methods of divination out there. And you
Speaker 3: can go off and learn geomancy on your own from
Speaker 3: someone else. But I wanted people to feel like, Okay,
Speaker 3: when you think about divination, you think about you know,
Speaker 3: telling someone's someone's fortune if you don't know anything about it,
Speaker 3: that's how it seems to a person, what does that
Speaker 3: look like? What does that look like to you? So
Speaker 3: that's how I put it together. And there are someone
Speaker 3: there that are way more technical, like I have a
Speaker 3: chapter on the eaching, and that's a world into itself
Speaker 3: that was impossible to capture. But I thought that that's
Speaker 3: it is such a like, it is such an elegant
Speaker 3: and powerful divination tool that I absolutely think that anyone
Speaker 3: who's interested in divination should have a relationship with it.
Speaker 3: So I included that one that's a little bit you know, trickier,
Speaker 3: you know, So, yeah, it kind of I wanted to
Speaker 3: give a good breath of tools. The other thing is
Speaker 3: I wanted a lot of different tools because some tools
Speaker 3: speak to us and some don't. Some people have no
Speaker 3: patience for astrology, and that's completely fine. Some people think
Speaker 3: numerology is bogus. That's completely fine, you know. So I
Speaker 3: wanted people to feel like they could pick this book
Speaker 3: up and get some.
Speaker 2: Use out of it, like I would be interested in
Speaker 2: numerology and not Tea Leaves, So I get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: I think it really comes down to how you connect
Speaker 1: with the tools that you're using to do the divination
Speaker 1: that's that seems to be one of the things if
Speaker 1: you if you don't feel a connection to it, forcing
Speaker 1: it's not going to help. So I think having the
Speaker 1: ability to go back and reassess is that the most
Speaker 1: important part of any divination is because if you're not
Speaker 1: connecting with it, it's it's a good, you know, opportunity to
Speaker 1: move on. There's a lot out there. I think geomancy,
Speaker 1: for instance, that's almost like the Western form of each right,
Speaker 1: so you can do it flipping a coin, her looking
Speaker 1: at holes in the dirt, but you know, it's in
Speaker 1: that same sort of style of eaching binary whatever. So
Speaker 1: it's you know, divination can be as easy as flipping
Speaker 1: a coin. And a lot of people are, you know,
Speaker 1: superstitious about a lot of these things. But our whole
Speaker 1: world is sort of translated into binary and if you
Speaker 1: can connect with that, you're good.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: That was one thing that I thought. I think it
Speaker 2: was the way you said it last time when you
Speaker 2: were on the show, when you kind of plug the book.
Speaker 2: You had mentioned a couple of how many you just
Speaker 2: rambled off a few of them, and I was like, oh, wow,
Speaker 2: that's pretty interesting that she included all those and then
Speaker 2: I asked you to come on and I looked up
Speaker 2: the book Born I was like, damn, she's got a
Speaker 2: lot in here, and I do think. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: another reason why I really wanted to get you owned,
Speaker 2: just because my opinion, just from somebody who's been in
Speaker 2: this myself for for a few years, you do kind
Speaker 2: of cover the basics in the classics. So I was
Speaker 2: very impressed that you actually did that much.
Speaker 3: So good, thank you, Thank you. Yeah. I think we
Speaker 3: have to have integrity in our work, and if someone
Speaker 3: asks me to write a book on divination, I'm definitely
Speaker 3: going to try my best to make it so that
Speaker 3: it's a thorough exploration of the art and let people
Speaker 3: have as many ways of accessing it as possible so
Speaker 3: that they don't turn away from it. Like I think
Speaker 3: that these are very useful helpful tools, kind of like
Speaker 3: what I was saying about astrology. It gives us more
Speaker 3: ways to understand ourselves. We have a lot of problems
Speaker 3: in this world, and I don't think that divinations the cure,
Speaker 3: but I do think that having a spiritual or magical
Speaker 3: practice is going to connect you to yourself and it's
Speaker 3: going to remind you that you have a soul and
Speaker 3: that's an important thing to remember these days. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I appreciate you saying that that it does cover the classics,
Speaker 3: and yeah, I hope other people find us there too.
Speaker 2: Of course, no real quick too, and then hell, let's
Speaker 2: read it anything. Out of all the systems in the book,
Speaker 2: are there may be one or two that you would
Speaker 2: think are especially misunderstood that's so like demonized, like.
Speaker 3: I think they're all But okay, So I do think
Speaker 3: that scrying, like the crystal ball thing, is such a stereotype,
Speaker 3: like of like kind of right, yeah, exactly exactly, So
Speaker 3: I think that that's one answer. And then I also
Speaker 3: do think that I do think that astrology is really misunderstood.
Speaker 3: And maybe that's my answer because that's my main discipline.
Speaker 3: But you know, when people don't understand astrology, they really
Speaker 3: don't understand, they really misunderstand it. They really think that
Speaker 3: it is or that or they think that if you're
Speaker 3: into it, you're like crazy or you're you're absurd, because
Speaker 3: what do you mean, you know? The planets and the
Speaker 3: day that you were born has anything to do with
Speaker 3: the rest of your life. It has everything to do
Speaker 3: with it, obviously, but it's such a large claim that
Speaker 3: I think that it's hard for non believers to parse.
Speaker 3: So I think that, you know, maybe I've had the
Speaker 3: most conversations with people about astrology and that's why it's
Speaker 3: the top of mind, But I do think that that
Speaker 3: is an unfairly judged art form and taro too, you know,
Speaker 3: because people are like, oh, you're just pulling a card.
Speaker 3: You can make anything up that you want. Sure, true,
Speaker 3: you can. But if you're going to a practitioner that
Speaker 3: you trust, they're informed, they're in touch, and they're reading
Speaker 3: a symbolic language to you, So no, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1: I find a lot of people don't connect the idea
Speaker 1: of astrology with the idea of the soul, even though
Speaker 1: your son sign is what gives you that sort of
Speaker 1: basic symbol that you're sort of having to deal with
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, and that sign is
Speaker 1: called the soul, right, that's the Latin word for it.
Speaker 1: So it's like there's an impression that's left that carries
Speaker 1: through to the other aspects of your life, and that
Speaker 1: insouling process is coming to understand yourself. It goes back
Speaker 1: to the Delphic maximum number one know thyself these are
Speaker 1: different aspects that you might not be fully aware of
Speaker 1: that give you the tools that you can deal with
Speaker 1: some of the things that normally come up associated with
Speaker 1: these signs. I think a lot of people don't realize
Speaker 1: that this kind of stuff goes back forty thousand years.
Speaker 1: So as they're observing all of these signs and symbols
Speaker 1: having to do with these different parts of the year
Speaker 1: and the different elemental qualities of them, what they're doing
Speaker 1: is they're actually tapping into ancient ancestral knowledge that's been
Speaker 1: passed down and examined and re examined over and over
Speaker 1: again throughout time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that's something that I teach in my classes.
Speaker 3: I want people to understand that we're not just doing
Speaker 3: superficial bubble gum astrology of like oh, passion, I find
Speaker 3: my next partner, or like what should my job be? Like, Yeah,
Speaker 3: those are important questions. I get it, and you know,
Speaker 3: I've wondered that myself a lot in my life. But
Speaker 3: we have to remember that this is like a tool
Speaker 3: that does help us find the soul in a really
Speaker 3: powerful way. And so that's why I really like to
Speaker 3: bring myth and mythic story into my chart interpretation practice.
Speaker 3: I find that very very helpful for people, especially when
Speaker 3: working with asteroids, which is kind of like another valance
Speaker 3: of astrological inquiry. But you know, it's it's just there.
Speaker 3: It's no accident that the planets are named after Olympian gods.
Speaker 3: Constellations too, are named after these mythic characters. We need
Speaker 3: to bring that back into astrological practice in a meaningful way,
Speaker 3: and that's how people find their own story in their
Speaker 3: chart a lot of the time. So I feel very
Speaker 3: strongly about.
Speaker 1: That absolutely, And that asteroid bit is so important because
Speaker 1: it goes back to the Catholic Church. Again, the Catholic
Speaker 1: Church are the ones who named all of the asteroids.
Speaker 1: We did a great show with the Astrologer where we
Speaker 1: were talking about how, hey, they're still doing the magic
Speaker 1: that they say is banned for everybody else, only they're
Speaker 1: associating it with these asteroids that they track from their
Speaker 1: Lucifer telescope. It's like, what's going on here, guys? I mean,
Speaker 1: so they're kind of keeping it in house and we're
Speaker 1: just sort of looking in from the outside. But there's
Speaker 1: a lot of really it's like another tumbler, right, So
Speaker 1: you've got the zodiac signs, that would be a tumblr.
Speaker 1: You've got the planets, that's a tumbler, and then the
Speaker 1: asteroids are like another tumbler. So you get a full
Speaker 1: message when you incorporate all of these different aspects.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. I offer a style of reading where I
Speaker 3: ask people before they book with me to tell me
Speaker 3: which stories or fairy tales or meths resonate most of them,
Speaker 3: or characters would archetypal forms, whatever, and they'll give me
Speaker 3: a list of things, and then I will go. Because
Speaker 3: there are thousands and thousands of asteroids, We're not going
Speaker 3: to put all the asteroids in a person's chart to
Speaker 3: begin with, but I will pick out asteroids that I
Speaker 3: believe are either resonant or are like a one to
Speaker 3: one correlation. Someone's like, oh, I'm you know, obsessed with
Speaker 3: like Persephone, like so many people are. I'll put the
Speaker 3: Persephone asteroids in the chart. It always lands in a
Speaker 3: significant place for this person, and it is It's like
Speaker 3: backwards divination. It feels so cool because then I get
Speaker 3: to come to my sessions and I'm like, you'll never
Speaker 3: guess what I found. You have this cosmic, faded connection
Speaker 3: to this character and then we get to explore how
Speaker 3: the relationship between the asteroid and that planet, you know,
Speaker 3: what they mean for one another, and how you can
Speaker 3: understand that planet in your chart through the lens of
Speaker 3: that story. And so you know, Yeah, the astrologer Dimitro George,
Speaker 3: who is like one of my kind of guiding lights,
Speaker 3: says that asteroids are the dimon and we can see
Speaker 3: diamon in these asteroids connected to the planets, and so
Speaker 3: it's like a version of that guiding spirit for whatever
Speaker 3: planet it's connected to. And it's such a fascinating idea.
Speaker 3: It gets it just yeah, goes goes crazy. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I'll stop rambling about asteroids now.
Speaker 1: No. I think it's really important because people don't realize
Speaker 1: this stuff. Like Edgar Casey, for example, his asteroid that
Speaker 1: he was born under was a Scluppy as the healer
Speaker 1: healed people while he was asleep, you know, and the
Speaker 1: sleeping profit angle is what they call the guy, and
Speaker 1: you know, it's there's so many different correlations and people
Speaker 1: are just completely unaware that there's a whole different avenue
Speaker 1: of astrology that is being used. The astrologer we had
Speaker 1: on was a forensic astrologer, so she was actually using
Speaker 1: this data to try to figure out how people died.
Speaker 1: You know, because you got all the data right there,
Speaker 1: why don't you apply that to solving crimes? So really interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll share like one asteroid story. I you know,
Speaker 3: months ago, we were trying to figure out what to
Speaker 3: name our baby. And that's the biggest deal ever, right
Speaker 3: because names are spells, and I was like, how do
Speaker 3: I name a person? What do I do? And it
Speaker 3: took a really long time to figure it out, and
Speaker 3: we finally landed on a name, and we chose the
Speaker 3: name Gabriel for many reasons, and just out of curiosity.
Speaker 3: I had never looked this up before, but I was like,
Speaker 3: I bet there's a Gabriel asteroid because he's an archangel.
Speaker 3: And I was like, there's got to be a Gabriel asteroid.
Speaker 3: I put it into my chart. It is perfectly conjunct
Speaker 3: my son. That was that blew me away, same degree,
Speaker 3: almost the same minute. I was in tears. And then
Speaker 3: I plugged it into my husband's chart to see where
Speaker 3: Gabriel is in his chart, and it was also conjunct
Speaker 3: his son. But we're born five years apart. He's a
Speaker 3: scorpio I'm a virgo, like, we don't have that placement
Speaker 3: in common at all. And so for our kid to
Speaker 3: have the asteroid for his name conjunct our sons, which is,
Speaker 3: like you said, soul or essence, it was crazy. It
Speaker 3: was crazy. So that was really fun and yeah, well
Speaker 3: that's wild.
Speaker 1: There is something about that nominative determinism where what you're
Speaker 1: named ends up producing something that you do in life,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people just completely overlook that when
Speaker 1: it comes to well, what does you know, what does
Speaker 1: a smith do? What is all this other stuff? And
Speaker 1: it's something that you're burdened with in some cases and in
Speaker 1: other ways that you're you know, empowered by. So I
Speaker 1: think naming is very important when it comes to astrology,
Speaker 1: when it comes to divination, the naming process is part
Speaker 1: of the magical process. And this is what in spelling
Speaker 1: stuff is you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So what are some of your favorite ones
Speaker 2: that you put in the book.
Speaker 3: My favorites are going to be obviously astrology, Taro. I
Speaker 3: care deeply about eachang is. We were already talking about
Speaker 3: other favorite ones. I have bibliomancy in there, I have
Speaker 3: dream work in there. Hang on, I'm gonna look at
Speaker 3: my table of contents because I wrote this a while ago. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I love the bibliomancy Dreams and Scrying chapter. I think
Speaker 3: that bibliomancy is a really overlooked, very very accessible form
Speaker 3: of divination for people. And I also really love divining
Speaker 3: with pendulums. I think that that's another simple but very
Speaker 3: very revealing tool that people can can make use of.
Speaker 3: So you know those are are my top handful. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: thank you.
Speaker 1: And Kats love pendulum scruying too, so much though that
Speaker 1: I can't find my pendulum anymore.
Speaker 2: Beans, Beans got you. That's funny. That's a funny character.
Speaker 2: You can't have you ever had an experience in your
Speaker 2: own practice that genuinely surprised you or changed your understanding
Speaker 2: of divination.
Speaker 3: I think that I have accidentally channeled. This is going
Speaker 3: to sound crazy, but I feel like I've I always
Speaker 3: I invite in the energy that wants to reveal itself,
Speaker 3: and so sometimes, especially when reading for people astrologically, like
Speaker 3: a loved one will come in and that always surprises me.
Speaker 3: And that doesn't happen super often, but the times that
Speaker 3: it has, it's been like very very strange and very
Speaker 3: powerful and very affirming of like this practice is not
Speaker 3: just real but also like important again for that connective
Speaker 3: ancestral piece of the puzzle, you know. I do find
Speaker 3: that when I read people's charts and or pull cards
Speaker 3: for them, when you hit on something without knowing this
Speaker 3: person at all and just having data in front of
Speaker 3: you in the form of a chart or just asking
Speaker 3: them a question, it's really really exciting, even if the
Speaker 3: story that they're sharing with you is a heavy one.
Speaker 3: I always get excited that I get to say, like,
Speaker 3: this is we're affirming this experience because this is shown
Speaker 3: in the chart or shown in the card that's coming up,
Speaker 3: you know, So I think that, yeah, on a more
Speaker 3: grounded level, when we get those hits, which happens often
Speaker 3: because astrology is so good at pinpointing people's experiences, that's amazing.
Speaker 3: And then you know the surprise element of like a
Speaker 3: message coming through that's not of the chart, but the
Speaker 3: chart can be kind of an energetic conto it for
Speaker 3: That's that's the most surprising thing that happens.
Speaker 2: Have you ever gotten like somebody's chart and looked at
Speaker 2: it and be like, oh, wow, this is already good,
Speaker 2: Like it looked interesting already, Like oh this might be
Speaker 2: a good one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, oh for sure, I mean yes, yeah.
Speaker 3: But you know it's funny too because you can look
Speaker 3: at it chart and it can look really really boring,
Speaker 3: and the person that shows up can be bonkers. Like
Speaker 3: it can look like, oh, what's this all looks fine?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 3: You know I've read for people, for example, who have like,
Speaker 3: in astrology, we have this this doctrine of like rulership
Speaker 3: and astrological tradition says that in order for a planet
Speaker 3: to be functioning at its best, it should be in
Speaker 3: its sign of domicile or exaltation, meaning like aligned with
Speaker 3: the sign that it's assigned to basically, and like with
Speaker 3: that philosophy, the best charts are the ones where people
Speaker 3: have planets in their home sign. For me, I find
Speaker 3: that people who have like every single like of their
Speaker 3: you know, personal planets in their sign of domicile, they
Speaker 3: can have them like a big struggle. And I don't
Speaker 3: really know why. I don't know what that's about, but
Speaker 3: you know, so I think that looks can be deceiving,
Speaker 3: But I can always tell when a chart does look
Speaker 3: like it's a little bit of like a lightning bul
Speaker 3: for a person to live with for sure, but you
Speaker 3: can also be tricked by a really calm looking chart. Yeah,
Speaker 3: if I see uranus on the ascendant or descendant, I
Speaker 3: know that I'm going to have a wacky conversation with
Speaker 3: someone and it's gonna be great.
Speaker 2: That's funny. I gotta look at mine now. Oh jeez.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Wait, what are your guys signs?
Speaker 2: How many areas? Nice?
Speaker 3: Nice? Wow? So you guys are polar opposites on the spectrum.
Speaker 3: Yeah cool, it.
Speaker 1: Seems to be the only people I get along with.
Speaker 3: That's cool. Well, that's good to reach for the other
Speaker 3: that's what you're supposed to do as a libras.
Speaker 2: So you know, nice dadlas, Did you have anything you
Speaker 2: wanted to ask?
Speaker 1: Well, there's there's a lot more to that water divination
Speaker 1: than people even know. Like right now, Uh, there's a
Speaker 1: woman named Beta Austin on Instagram that does this thing
Speaker 1: where she, uh you is these plates of water, these
Speaker 1: like Petri dishes. She asks the question, puts it in
Speaker 1: the freezer and then a glyph will emerge in the
Speaker 1: ice as it's freezing, and so she'll pull it out
Speaker 1: and like you know, take pictures of it. And sometimes
Speaker 1: these things are just strikingly similar to the objects or
Speaker 1: the questions that she's asking, Like she's got pictures all
Speaker 1: of our instagram of this, so it almost seems like
Speaker 1: there's a memory to the water. And if we're made
Speaker 1: of ninety percent water, you know by volume, what's that
Speaker 1: mean about us? Like we're repositories of this early memory.
Speaker 1: And I think in a lot of ways, the scrying
Speaker 1: and all the rest of these aspects are just sort
Speaker 1: of connecting with that water memory that is within us.
Speaker 1: And you know, also the planets are shaping the energies
Speaker 1: that are hitting that water. So it's it almost is
Speaker 1: the through line between all of it.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, ok ahead.
Speaker 2: There was you know when you talk about that, you know,
Speaker 2: with the whole water thing, there's something that I covered.
Speaker 2: I forgot exactly which place it was. I covered a
Speaker 2: few different places on this show that's coming out soon
Speaker 2: with like places with the neuro architecture and like the
Speaker 2: somatics all that stuff, And there was one that it
Speaker 2: was severe enough to where they said that it would
Speaker 2: definitely affect your bones and your skull. And then when
Speaker 2: you think about that, your brains surrounded by water, what's
Speaker 2: happening then if you getting vibrations smacking your skull had
Speaker 2: enough to affect that, just wonder what stuff's going on,
Speaker 2: you know, the side of a person's body might. After
Speaker 2: someone finishes Divination for Dummies, what do you hope changes
Speaker 2: in the way they see symbols ritual in their own
Speaker 2: inner life.
Speaker 3: I hope they feel like they have access to it
Speaker 3: and like they have renewed confidence and the fact that
Speaker 3: they get to build relationship with it going forward. So
Speaker 3: I think that one one of the most important parts
Speaker 3: of the book to me. It's you know, yes, like
Speaker 3: I have these kind of core chapters on different divination
Speaker 3: techniques that a person can learn, but I also spend
Speaker 3: a lot of time in the book talking about how
Speaker 3: to bring divination into your creative practice. I think that
Speaker 3: divination and art are really important to hold together. I
Speaker 3: talk a lot about personal ritual and how to facilitate
Speaker 3: good ritual hygiene, good energetic hygiene for yourself, you know.
Speaker 3: So I think that this book differs maybe from other
Speaker 3: handbooks in that you're getting the how to guide, but
Speaker 3: then I kind of wanted to create like a scaffolding
Speaker 3: for people around it, so you're not just picking up
Speaker 3: a book on how to read a poem and walking
Speaker 3: away from it, but you have like tools and steps
Speaker 3: and like, you know, suggestions of how to incorporate it
Speaker 3: into your life. That's always what I like to do
Speaker 3: with my people that I read for. It's like, how
Speaker 3: do we get this off the screen or off the
Speaker 3: page and make it embodied? And so I hope that
Speaker 3: that's what the book is going to be able to
Speaker 3: do for people. That was like a really important piece
Speaker 3: of the puzzle for me, right, that.
Speaker 1: That spiritual hygiene aspect is so important. What are your
Speaker 1: practices in engaging in spiritual hygiene before and after divination?
Speaker 1: Because you know, clearing after is often more important than
Speaker 1: clearing before.
Speaker 3: I really like the days that I don't clear after,
Speaker 3: I put myself up for the rest of the day,
Speaker 3: I will say, because sometimes we're in a rush and
Speaker 3: that's what happens. But before before I sit down, I
Speaker 3: like to call in my own guides, Right, I do
Speaker 3: a lot of kind of visualization of my space. I
Speaker 3: like to cast a dome over myself before I start
Speaker 3: reading for somebody to just create a create an energetic barrier,
Speaker 3: you know, I think that that is the most important
Speaker 3: thing that I do. I also like to read accompanied
Speaker 3: by some talismanic objects that I think are grounding or guiding,
Speaker 3: And you know, I work with certain fixed stars and
Speaker 3: certain other deities and like to have that in the
Speaker 3: mix just to kind of keep everything aligned and protected.
Speaker 3: And you know, even for something as conversational maybe and
Speaker 3: social as an astrology reading can be right because you're
Speaker 3: making jokes, you're talking about your life, you're sharing about
Speaker 3: your past. It can feel kind of normal, but we're
Speaker 3: actually doing work that's really magical, and we are reaching
Speaker 3: into the energetic space between us. So I invite my
Speaker 3: clients to also like ground in with me, imagine that
Speaker 3: protective layer around them, and then afterwards for clearing, I
Speaker 3: do have like a mist that I like to use
Speaker 3: in my space to attribute it to a fixed star,
Speaker 3: and I like to really just do like a grounding
Speaker 3: check in with my body and just like imagine I'm
Speaker 3: peeling off that conversation because it sticks with you, you know,
Speaker 3: even if it's not a heavy one, I wind up
Speaker 3: thinking about that person's story for the rest of the
Speaker 3: day probably regardless. But yeah, those so those are my attempts.
Speaker 1: Right, that energetic hygiene is is what I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people miss in their everyday lives anyway. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's like, if you're not clearing off that negative
Speaker 1: energy that people are carrying around with them, you're carrying
Speaker 1: it too. It's very contagious in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: People know that, you know, I mean they could feel
Speaker 1: that from other people, but they just don't associate it. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe this is what you got to do to get
Speaker 1: rid of that energy so it's not stuck to you
Speaker 1: all the time. And uh yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: that's very important. You know, you don't want to live
Speaker 1: somebody else's life that they're carrying around with themselves.
Speaker 2: Oh man, yeah, you know, I even remember, I mean,
Speaker 2: regardless of that's what your opinion of it was. Even
Speaker 2: during I remember going grocery shopping during COVID, it was
Speaker 2: like calling back home. I was like, I feel like
Speaker 2: I just came home with everybody's fucking anxiety and feel
Speaker 2: with them.
Speaker 3: Totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you walked into the place and you just felt it.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh fuck, I just want to get
Speaker 2: out of you.
Speaker 3: It's it's so real. It's such a real thing. Yeah, So.
Speaker 2: Would you mind if maybe I asked you, like, maybe
Speaker 2: like one or two certain types of divination that maybe
Speaker 2: we could talk about. Yeah. Yeah, as cheesy as it is,
Speaker 2: I am interested in you doing the bone to us
Speaker 2: and talking about that.
Speaker 3: Okay, So I want to say something about that this
Speaker 3: and this is no shape to my publisher, But they
Speaker 3: had that in the description of the book, and I've
Speaker 3: told them a few times that that's not in the
Speaker 3: book because that's a close practice, Hi kitty, Okay, So
Speaker 3: that is a question mark for me. What I do
Speaker 3: do in the book is charm casting, Right, So I
Speaker 3: talk about bone throwing and you know, it's origin and
Speaker 3: stuff like that. But then I'm like, this is a
Speaker 3: close practice we're going to talk about. We're going to
Speaker 3: talk about how to make your own set of charms
Speaker 3: and how to cast them. So that's an awkward answer,
Speaker 3: but that's the honest answer.
Speaker 2: Hell's did you have one maybe you wanted to ask about?
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah. So one of the things that I like
Speaker 1: to do is or a viewing, right, and more viewing,
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to natural landscapes, can really give
Speaker 1: you a deeper insight into what's around you. Would you
Speaker 1: consider or viewing to be a form of divination? Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, absolutely, Yeah, anything where you're communing with
Speaker 3: you know, that kind of symbolic insight, especially from something
Speaker 3: natural and or supernatural, is definitely divination in my book. Right,
Speaker 3: So you're scanning the landscape and looking for what the
Speaker 3: quality of that environment is, and it's going to give
Speaker 3: you information about what you're surrounded by. I think that's
Speaker 3: a really cool idea and definitely a divinatory form.
Speaker 1: Definitely helps with weather prediction, I'll tell you that much.
Speaker 1: You can cool to see a store store goverment from
Speaker 1: days off and things like that. So it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's very physically grounding too when you're actually you know,
Speaker 1: taking that in. But you know, I think that kind
Speaker 1: of goes into clouds as well. You've got the idea
Speaker 1: that clouds making shapes in the sky have a certain
Speaker 1: meaning or something like that, and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people miss the idea that the clouds are taking
Speaker 1: in your energy as well as putting out energy of
Speaker 1: its own. So there's there's an interchange between the two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as above so below right, that's how it all.
Speaker 1: Works exactly, especially with animals, you know, I mean they're
Speaker 1: picking up on your energy as well as you know,
Speaker 1: giving you their their energy as well. So all of
Speaker 1: these things are sort of part of living the divinatory life,
Speaker 1: you know. I think that's that's the key too, is
Speaker 1: like being in touch with your environment means having that
Speaker 1: divinatory connection.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that. Yeah, yeah for sure. And that's
Speaker 3: why I love astrology as like a starter divinatory slash
Speaker 3: magical practice because it gives you a literal like language
Speaker 3: for understanding like venus means, you know, embodiment, values, pleasure
Speaker 3: of beauty, and then we look for the Venusian in
Speaker 3: the world around us. I think that writing a book
Speaker 3: like Divination for Dummies was a funny task because I
Speaker 3: think that I was just It's like we're giving people
Speaker 3: lots of different ways to do the same thing, which
Speaker 3: is to commune with their intuition, their guides and the
Speaker 3: information that is kind of held in nature or in
Speaker 3: the supernatural. And you don't have to have a codified
Speaker 3: form in order to do that, right, Like you can
Speaker 3: literally be just in relationship with archetypal forms and know
Speaker 3: when you see, like I'll see a cloud that looks
Speaker 3: jubytarian to me, can I describe what that means?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Maybe it looks very grand it looks very kingly, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, Okay, there's a jubiterarian energy in this part
Speaker 3: of my day and I'm going to enjoy that, you know.
Speaker 3: So like learning how to read your environment and read
Speaker 3: the world that way can be really I think empowering
Speaker 3: and just yeah, we're working with ancient primordial forms, as
Speaker 3: un calls it, the archetypes, right, so we all have
Speaker 3: relationship with it, whether or not we realize it. And
Speaker 3: that's what I think divination reminds us of, regardless if
Speaker 3: you're doing tea leaves or palmistry or ruins, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's funny that you named it,
Speaker 1: you know, divination for dummies, because having a highly associated
Speaker 1: mind actually expands and creates better memory in the brain.
Speaker 1: So basically, if you're starting out Divination for Dummies, you're
Speaker 1: not going to finish the book as it It's gonna
Speaker 1: be that simple.
Speaker 3: That's the hope, and no one's a dummy who picks
Speaker 3: it up. It's that's the book series title. And I
Speaker 3: think that it's so misleading because you know, no one
Speaker 3: wants to feel like they're a dummy, but it's signifying
Speaker 3: like this is the beginner's introduction invitation into this topic. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and hopefully you are very enlightened when you're done.
Speaker 2: I like that one question I did have, and I just, uh,
Speaker 2: I think this is an interesting question. Actually, what does
Speaker 2: a mature differ diviner understand that a beginner usually doesn't
Speaker 2: mm hmm.
Speaker 3: It's a great question, and I'm sure we all have
Speaker 3: an answer to it too, but I think, right, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's like a great, a great practitioner question. I think
Speaker 3: that the mature dive knows very well that even if
Speaker 3: you divine a message, or you read a symbol, or
Speaker 3: you see an astrological transit, that is not the end
Speaker 3: of the relationship that you have. With that question. When
Speaker 3: you're a younger diviner and you pull a carot card,
Speaker 3: you pull the death card, you're asking a question about
Speaker 3: a relationship, you feel a sense of doom because you
Speaker 3: don't really yet understand what it means to be in
Speaker 3: relationship with that archetype or with that idea, and it
Speaker 3: can feel very limiting. And I think that's what scares
Speaker 3: a lot of people off from divination too. It's like
Speaker 3: the interpretation is one of finality, and so when we
Speaker 3: are more mature in our practices, we know that the
Speaker 3: answer we receive is usually about our contemporary relationship or
Speaker 3: our current relationship with the answer to that question because
Speaker 3: we're always going to keep changing. And I think that
Speaker 3: that's really unsatisfying for people to hear, because I'll tell
Speaker 3: them that when you know, especially with astrological transits too,
Speaker 3: and like this moment sucks, it will get better. Look
Speaker 3: at the sky literally clears in nine months, but nobody
Speaker 3: wants to wait nine months for things to get better
Speaker 3: for Saturn takeet off of their son or their ascendant,
Speaker 3: you know, so it can sting. But yeah, I think
Speaker 3: that that's what I would say. What would you guys
Speaker 3: say is the answer to that question?
Speaker 1: I think you hit the nail on the head. That
Speaker 1: limiting factor is where superstition comes in, you know, and
Speaker 1: you know a lot of times divination gets equated with
Speaker 1: superstition because people think that it's limiting your life into
Speaker 1: this series of forums or whatever, but it really doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be. I think what I suggest everybody do
Speaker 1: is go listen to as they're getting into astrology, go
Speaker 1: listen to the orphic hymns, because the orphic hymns have
Speaker 1: a lot of the ideas in that we're talking about,
Speaker 1: and then how to move past it. So all of
Speaker 1: these myths are not dead ends. They're continual stories, and
Speaker 1: that's that's something that you know is delimiting when it
Speaker 1: comes to divination.
Speaker 2: I was thinking for myself, Uh, I think the best
Speaker 2: way to word it, Uh, there may be times in
Speaker 2: the past where I wanted to kind of like tell
Speaker 2: myself maybe I was correct, But I think if I'm
Speaker 2: honest and actually evaluate when I'm wrong, I will actually
Speaker 2: have a better understanding down the road. I just think
Speaker 2: a lot of people, just in my my opinion, I
Speaker 2: myself and others. Sometimes I think we mind fuck ourselves
Speaker 2: a little bit too much with this stuff at the
Speaker 2: beginning and believe everything we're always right. May not always
Speaker 2: be that way, but I think, like for me, there's
Speaker 2: been times where I would see a pattern and then realize, oh,
Speaker 2: this is where I keep getting that one thing wrong.
Speaker 2: So now I know because I was honestly looking at
Speaker 2: my shit and not telling myself, oh yeah I was,
Speaker 2: you know, I fucking nailed that. No I didn't, you know,
Speaker 2: So I think maybe, uh, being wrong or screwing things
Speaker 2: up isn't always bad. You can learn from that, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's also too why it's good to
Speaker 3: have other people read for you, because the pressure of
Speaker 3: reading for yourself can sometimes be a mind fuck, as
Speaker 3: you say, and like I barely pull cards for myself,
Speaker 3: and I kind of don't look at my own transits
Speaker 3: until something crazy is happening, and I'm just like, great
Speaker 3: here I am, you know, because I do think that
Speaker 3: we import our own biases a lot into our own
Speaker 3: self divination. So having divination friends that you can trust,
Speaker 3: who can be objective, or just people that you admire
Speaker 3: and trust, teachers you know that are honest people is
Speaker 3: really really crucial to.
Speaker 2: Great stuff. Was there anything else headless that you wanted
Speaker 2: to ask, talk about and bring up before we.
Speaker 1: So we do a remote viewing show on Thursdays, and
Speaker 1: I was wondering, what would your advice be on how
Speaker 1: to get the most accurate remote viewing pictures.
Speaker 3: I don't know, that's a cool question. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm not a remote viewer, but that sounds like an amazing,
Speaker 3: amazing activity.
Speaker 1: It's a lot like divination. It's very very similar to so.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. I've just
Speaker 3: never experimented with it, So what tell me what happens.
Speaker 1: Well, we just have pictures that we've taken and we
Speaker 1: put them into envelopes, or we put the information into envelopes.
Speaker 1: We shuffle them up to where we don't know which
Speaker 1: one is which, and then you know, we pull them.
Speaker 1: We go through the concentration relaxation exercise, and then people
Speaker 1: write down their impression that they're getting, whether it's sensory
Speaker 1: or whatever, and then we go back over them at
Speaker 1: the end of the show and see how accurate those
Speaker 1: impressions are of the things that we've taken pictures of.
Speaker 3: Cool. Wait, so I have done this. That's cool? Yeah
Speaker 3: you have?
Speaker 1: Everybody has. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm sure she's probably done something close
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, So, I mean I've only done it once.
Speaker 3: And Jesus, I don't know how to answer this question,
Speaker 3: but like, really just feeling into that visual space here
Speaker 3: was what I was kind of working with. I do
Speaker 3: think there's a lot of like embodied information, but for me,
Speaker 3: it was like a very whatever visual experience to experiment
Speaker 3: with that. So this is not an articulate answer, but
Speaker 3: I hope that everyone sees the things that they're meant
Speaker 3: to see in their.
Speaker 1: Practice, right, you know, if people are visual learners or
Speaker 1: auditory learners. What I try to do in the relaxation
Speaker 1: is to go through all the senses and see if
Speaker 1: you're getting any impressions from your different senses as you're
Speaker 1: concentrating on these different pictures.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great, that's awesome.
Speaker 2: Uh, well, I think did you have anything else that
Speaker 2: you wanted to ask Christina? Anything else you can say
Speaker 2: about the book?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think that you know about the book in general,
Speaker 3: I think that I really want people to feel like
Speaker 3: they can pick this up at any at any level,
Speaker 3: but it's especially beginner friendly, and so, you know, I
Speaker 3: don't know who if I feel like your audience are
Speaker 3: not necessarily beginner types, I feel like you have tuned
Speaker 3: in magical audience.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm wrong I think beginners now, but yeah, some
Speaker 2: of them I think are already like yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So you know, I think that
Speaker 3: what the book means to me as a practitioner is
Speaker 3: again kind of like giving us a basis to understand
Speaker 3: how we can live that divinatory life. Like Heedless was saying,
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, that is one of the most
Speaker 3: important things to me to teach people to do it.
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter what modality you're using, but knowing that this
Speaker 3: is an ancient tradition, this is something that people have
Speaker 3: always done cross culturally. There is we were talking about,
Speaker 3: you know, Greco Roman stuff, but culture is the world over.
Speaker 3: It's a human instinct to divine from nature, from you know,
Speaker 3: the alphabet, from numbers, whatever, and so that is something
Speaker 3: that was kind of taken from us due to Enlightenment philosophy,
Speaker 3: which brought us a lot of good stuff, but also
Speaker 3: totally stripped the collective of access to this sort of
Speaker 3: ancient information, ancient wisdom. And a big part of my
Speaker 3: project is kind of reminding people of that. I feel
Speaker 3: like I've probably done this for multiple lifetimes by accident,
Speaker 3: you know. So it's important for me for people to
Speaker 3: feel like they have as natural a pipeline to it
Speaker 3: as someone else. They perceive being like a magical practitioner,
Speaker 3: And it's really about fine tuning the art of noticing. Yes,
Speaker 3: there's some memorization, some symbolic alphabets to know, you know,
Speaker 3: but a great place to start would be this book.
Speaker 3: And you are like the strongest tool. Your dreams are
Speaker 3: one of the strongest divinatory tools you know that you've
Speaker 3: got with you. So I think that that's my main
Speaker 3: takeaway is that I want people to feel really supported
Speaker 3: in whatever kind of reclamation they want to do with divination.
Speaker 1: Write it all down, too, Write it all down, because
Speaker 1: when you wake up and you've got to go to
Speaker 1: the bathroom and you've just had a great dream, it's
Speaker 1: going to be gone by the time you're done. Yeah,
Speaker 1: write it all down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, Yeah. I have like in my you're good, Well, I.
Speaker 1: Just wanted to ask, what's your favorite book to use
Speaker 1: for bibliomancy?
Speaker 3: It depends on my question, and it depends on the mood.
Speaker 3: Sometimes if I'm feeling chaotic, I'll grab whatever book off
Speaker 3: my shelf because then I consider that part of the divination, right,
Speaker 3: And I don't category. I don't organize my books. They're
Speaker 3: like in a jumble on my shelf, so there's no
Speaker 3: rhyme or reason to what I'm pulling when I pull.
Speaker 3: But I do think that supportive books for divination are
Speaker 3: always going to be books of poetry because they give
Speaker 3: us these compressed, crystallized images and lines that are easier
Speaker 3: to pluck from than like maybe a novel if we're
Speaker 3: just getting started, or you know, divination I mean sorry,
Speaker 3: bibliomancy was practiced a lot with the Bible for you know,
Speaker 3: thousands of years, and so that's like a classic. But
Speaker 3: that's not going to speak to everyone, and that's going
Speaker 3: to carry its own sort of dogma with it. So
Speaker 3: we can be super intentional, I think, or you can
Speaker 3: be a little bit of a chaotic magician and pick
Speaker 3: whatever is lying around. But you know, the idea that
Speaker 3: whatever your eye lands on first is the answer is
Speaker 3: also kind of hard for some people because sometimes you
Speaker 3: land on something that seems totally unrelated to what your
Speaker 3: question is. But I urge you to keep that phrase
Speaker 3: with you and see how it emerges. Yeah, someone's commenting,
Speaker 3: Red Book is great for bibliomancy. I'm sure. I'm sure
Speaker 3: that's true. A lot of profound stuff in that book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, keep on here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, But what if we don't have to reach
Speaker 3: for the most profound thing all the time, Like what
Speaker 3: if it's total what if it's like you're divining with
Speaker 3: like a Marx Brothers movie, you know, Like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: I think it can be anything. I'm serious, So.
Speaker 2: I like that that's good all right, I think you
Speaker 2: have less unless you got anything else, I think we
Speaker 2: can wrap it up there. Thank you very much for
Speaker 2: coming on, Christina. That was fun, that was enjoyable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was fun. Yeah good. I'm hoping it was
Speaker 3: a good listen and great conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, head Liss. So why don't you let everybody know
Speaker 2: where they can find all your amazing stuff?
Speaker 1: All right? Yeah, you can find me on x and
Speaker 1: also on Instagram and YouTube, so I check those out.
Speaker 1: And tomorrow we've got another remote viewing show coming up
Speaker 1: and I've got the pictures so ready to go. So
Speaker 1: they definitely checked that out. And if you wouldn't learn
Speaker 1: how to remote view, that's the place to do it
Speaker 1: because it's viewer participation as well.
Speaker 2: So it's pretty fun. It's definitely fun. You've gotten some
Speaker 2: people get some real good ones too, So.
Speaker 1: That's really tight, tight associations.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, Man, if I didn't fuck up that
Speaker 2: one and I would have like really literally put down
Speaker 2: what I had, I would have been spot on with Walmart.
Speaker 2: I was so pissed, Yeah, freak. I was like, oh man,
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I don't know. For some reason,
Speaker 2: I felt stupid like, yeah, I put Supermarket. I don't
Speaker 2: want to tell people to go to Walmart when everybody
Speaker 2: fucking goes there. Anyway, All right, Christina, anything else that
Speaker 2: you'd like to mention when you want to plug any
Speaker 2: of your sites, remind the people of the book. Yeah,
Speaker 2: is the book? I'm so sorry to ask this. Is
Speaker 2: it out already or not? No to I didn't think
Speaker 2: it was. I didn't think Okay, don't worry.
Speaker 3: No, it's all goods. It's up for pre order now,
Speaker 3: which is actually a really awesome time for people to
Speaker 3: buy it because it shows the publisher that people are
Speaker 3: interested in it. So it's always excellent to grab it
Speaker 3: in the pre order time period. And you can find
Speaker 3: it on really any major book retailer that you like
Speaker 3: to buy your books from. If you have an indie
Speaker 3: bookstore in your neighborhood, you can have it ordered there.
Speaker 3: You don't have to order it from a big, mega
Speaker 3: conglomerate bookstore from the internet if you don't want to.
Speaker 3: And yeah, so it's coming out April twenty eighth, and
Speaker 3: I can't wait. I don't have copies of it yet.
Speaker 3: I can't wait to see it myself. I don't even
Speaker 3: I don't know, it feels, don't feel really yet. I'm
Speaker 3: just like, what's going on? So yeah, that comes at
Speaker 3: April twenty eighth Divination for Dummies. I'll be delighted if
Speaker 3: anyone snacks a copy. And you can find me on Instagram.
Speaker 3: My handle is eighth House Astro. My website is Christinafarrella
Speaker 3: dot com and I'm also in substack as eighth House Astrology,
Speaker 3: so you can find me in those three main places.
Speaker 2: Awesome, thank you so much. Yeah, as soon as we
Speaker 2: get off the show, I'll take a forgot to put
Speaker 2: the notes in from the list one, I'll put your
Speaker 2: links writing.
Speaker 3: That's perfect, ye, perfect, yeah.
Speaker 2: Because they are in the other one. Thank you very
Speaker 2: much for coming on again. I really appreciate it. Hopefully
Speaker 2: we'll have another conversation with you in the future about
Speaker 2: something else.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, and thank you everybody in the chat.
Speaker 2: That's what's up. I had a great time. I appreciate
Speaker 2: all the comments and any questions, and that's why we
Speaker 2: go live. And until the next one, everybody be well later.