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No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by law 23 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.960 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for detail. 24 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:14.439 Loop Toad, you are now listening to True Murder, The 25 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:18.000 most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors 26 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:24.400 that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. 27 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:29.120 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 28 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:33.280 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 29 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:36.799 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.040 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 31 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:54.280 program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime 32 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:57.719 history and the authors that have written about them. In 33 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.280 nineteen fifty eight, year old Charlie Starkweather, when on a 34 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:06.519 murder spree that paralyzed Nebraska, shocked the nation, and left 35 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.560 eleven people dead. With him when he was captured was 36 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:13.680 his fourteen year old ex girlfriend, Carol Fugate. The questions 37 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:18.400 soon became was she a kidnapped victim or a heartless accomplice. 38 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.520 Appointed to her case, attorney John MacArthur initially accepted the 39 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.120 assignment out of a sense of constitutional duty, but as 40 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:29.879 he delve deeper, he found that the truth was far 41 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:33.960 more complicated than anyone was letting on up. Against incredible 42 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:37.439 odds and with a strong conviction of her innocence, MacArthur 43 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.080 remained with Carrol and fought for her freedom for eighteen years. 44 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:44.840 For this service, he took no pay, accepting the case 45 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:49.000 pro bono. This book follows the long struggle of MacArthur, 46 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.120 his partner Merril Reller, and John's son James, as they 47 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.960 took on the Nebraska legal system and a public that 48 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:59.599 had already determined Carroll's guilt before ever hearing a word 49 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:03.199 of tests morning. The story continues through all it influenced, 50 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:06.319 such as Stephen King, who became a horror writer because 51 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.360 of it, Bruce Springsteen, who wrote a whole album about it, 52 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.919 Terrence Malick, Oliver Stone, Martin Sheen, and Peter Jackson, who 53 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:16.240 wrote his first major movie based on the stark Weather 54 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:20.960 Fugate incident. Pro Bono explores aspects of this incredible story 55 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.319 that have never been revealed before and sheds new light 56 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:27.879 on these terrifying and complex events. The book that we're 57 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.599 featuring this evening is pro Bono, The Eighteen Year Defense 58 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:36.400 of Carol Ann Fugate, with my guest journalist and filmmaker 59 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.719 Jeff MacArthur. Welcome to the program and thank you for 60 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.479 agreeing this interview. Jeff MacArthur, thank you, thank you for 61 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.680 having me Dan, Thank you very much. Incredible story, and 62 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.159 we're going to take our audience, our international audience and 63 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:55.080 our American audience back in time about fifty five years. 64 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:58.800 So this is a fantastic story and one of the 65 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.400 most important legals stories in American history. 66 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:01.879 I got to. 67 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.800 Say, so, I'm really glad that we're covering this this evening. Cool. Now, 68 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:08.400 first off, before we and let's not try to give 69 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:10.439 too much away, because I love the way you laid 70 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:15.400 out this book and how everything is revealed and how 71 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.160 everybody is introduced and how the story unfolds. So we're 72 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:21.600 going to, you know, try to follow it somewhat like 73 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:26.199 that and spoilers and yeah, and just tell the story. 74 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.000 You know, this this incredible story. Now, First off, what 75 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.959 is your professional background? And I think this is important, 76 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:37.079 and how are you related to John MacArthur? First tell 77 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:38.079 us tell us. 78 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.680 That please, Well, I'm the grandson of John MacArthur. James 79 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.360 MacArthur is my father, who was one of the other attorneys. 80 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:51.160 And I grew up actually not wanting to be an attorney, 81 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:53.600 even though I came from this lineage of them. I 82 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:56.120 was more interested in storytelling, and so I started with 83 00:04:56.519 --> 00:04:58.879 books as a kid, but then turned to film. I 84 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:01.240 was interested in doing that, wound up going to film 85 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:04.360 school and at New York University, then moved to LA 86 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:08.319 for obvious reasons, to follow the film career. And after 87 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.160 a number of years I just kind of circled back 88 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:13.199 around and realized, you know, it'd be a good idea 89 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:15.279 to write a book about some things, and including this 90 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.240 one that had been around in my life, you know, 91 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:19.560 my whole life. 92 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.720 Yeah, you sort of covered my next question, But really, 93 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.480 why did you feel so compelled? There's been so much written, 94 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:30.959 so many movies inspired, like we mentioned in the like 95 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:35.360 I mentioned in the opening, there's been countless newspaper articles, editorials, 96 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.759 I say, movie versions. There's been songs, there's been albums, 97 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.920 there's been people speaking about it. Why did you feel compelled? 98 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:45.480 You know, like you say, you're a filmmaker, Why did 99 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:48.839 you feel compelled? And at this time, what was your 100 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:50.600 reason for writing this book? 101 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.040 Well, you know, it was just after seeing the story 102 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.160 sort of inaccurately portrayed so often, and you know a 103 00:05:57.160 --> 00:05:59.040 lot of times when somebody a lot of times when 104 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:02.720 someone says inaccurate, they mean, well they wore different color 105 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:03.519 suit or something. 106 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:04.360 In this case. 107 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:09.319 It's just been there's been this belief that Carol this 108 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.680 was basically another Bonnie and Clyde, that Carol went with 109 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.079 her boyfriend Charlie. In fact, when you read things about it, 110 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.079 Charlie and his girlfriend Carol, and they forget to mention 111 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:20.079 that she had broken up with them a few days before. 112 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:24.079 And you know, I mean, there's so many elements about 113 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:29.319 the story that have been mistold, misplayed, and what I 114 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.639 grew up with. It wasn't just a matter of hey, 115 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:33.879 the record should be straight, but to me, it was 116 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:35.759 a much more the actual truth was a much more 117 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:38.279 interesting story. And I know it seems, you know, I 118 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:41.879 seem biased because I'm from the attorney attorney's family, but 119 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:44.720 I actually went and researched it independent. I was like, 120 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.040 I really want to know what this thing is all about. 121 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.160 So I read the original trial transcripts and all sorts 122 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:53.279 of things and found them far far more fascinating story 123 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:55.959 than what had been portrayed in movies and books. And 124 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:58.399 it was just more too complicated for a movie as well. 125 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.040 So I just I said, you know what, this should 126 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:03.879 be a book. And that's why that's why I ended 127 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:04.399 up doing it. 128 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:12.000 Great now tell us about your grandfather, John MacArthur. Basically 129 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.560 we get to an introduction through all of the all 130 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.839 of the events in the book that you speak about, 131 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:23.040 but also we get an introduction to him as you 132 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:25.439 introduce him in early in the books. So let's get 133 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:29.040 a sort of a cursory introduction to your grandfather who 134 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:31.079 he was as a lawyer and the kind of lawyer 135 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:34.199 he was, and again give us sort of the framework 136 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:35.920 of the time, so that we've got sort of a 137 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:36.759 context for that. 138 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:39.160 You know, Yeah, I'm glad that you bring up the 139 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:41.800 idea of the framework of the time, because it's it's 140 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:44.439 interesting today you say lawyer, and people get this image 141 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:46.759 of the guy from Breaking Bad, you know, it's just 142 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:50.759 so much of the sort of sleaziness et cetera, et cetera. 143 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:55.360 And in fact, actually at that particular time, law was 144 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.279 much more noble profession. Now, of course you always have, 145 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:01.879 you know, people who were in for various reasons and stuff, 146 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:03.959 but he had a lot more people who really believed 147 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:06.279 in what they were doing. And my grandfather actually referred 148 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:10.160 to it as the practical application of philosophy, uh, and 149 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.959 that was more his what he believed in, what he liked. 150 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:15.680 He saw himself not so much of a defender of 151 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:20.240 individual uh, you know, clients, but rather a defender of 152 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:23.160 the constitution, and he believed that that's really. 153 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:25.519 What it was all what it was all about. As 154 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:26.319 a lawyer, and. 155 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:30.639 He was very h He had a lot of credibility 156 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:34.919 around town, was very well respected because of because of 157 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:39.679 his integrity essentially, but he also really understood a lot 158 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.320 of the situations of a lot of people who were 159 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.399 in financial difficulty and all that sort of things. So 160 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:47.759 he would sometimes work as a lawyer for somebody as 161 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:49.320 a trade of goods. So there are a lot of 162 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.559 farmers who they couldn't pay any pay him anything, but 163 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:55.279 they had certain items. And there was one story about 164 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:57.759 when he was given a pig and he gave it 165 00:08:57.799 --> 00:08:59.320 as a pet to one of his to one of 166 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:01.480 his kids, because was the payment he had gotten for 167 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:05.440 being an attorney. So that's sort of what he was 168 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:07.679 as an attorney and as a person. He was just 169 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:12.320 a very quiet, reserved kind of person who didn't let 170 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:17.799 a lot out, either verbally or emotionally. But he really 171 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.120 enjoyed hanging around a lot of people who have, you know, 172 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:23.639 very dynamic personalities and that sort of thing. 173 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:28.120 But yeah, it was interesting too that he's this dynamic 174 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.799 speaker and of course he's not dealing with, as we see, 175 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.759 not a minor case, but a very very important, major 176 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:39.480 case of life and death. And yet at home he's 177 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:42.919 this quiet guy. And what I found interesting too is 178 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.960 maybe can tell the story of his wife was Seventh 179 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.320 Day Adventist, but what was How is John MacArthur, despite 180 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.240 what his wife wanted him to do, sort of testament 181 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:55.000 to his character. 182 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:01.320 Yeah, that's an interesting, interesting question, I hope, and unless 183 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:03.480 if there's something else you were meaning, let me know. 184 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:07.360 But basically, yeah, as far as being a some day uh, 185 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.039 he was agnostic, but he married this woman who was 186 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.559 very strongly religious and really very strongly in a lot 187 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.080 of people don't necessarily know Seven to Adventism. It's essentially 188 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.440 the idea of it was now going into. 189 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:21.679 The whole thing. 190 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:23.960 One of the important aspects of it is the seventh 191 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:27.480 Day Saturday being this uh, not only the day they worship, 192 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:29.080 but having. 193 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:30.679 A lot of rules and restrictions to it mean you. 194 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:34.720 Can't watch TV from sunset Friday night to sunset Saturday night. 195 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:37.720 But he was just lea and he was okay, you know, 196 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:40.320 very much going along with it, except he would not 197 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:43.960 give up sid Theezer, the boxing matches, and in particular 198 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:46.679 Nebraska football. So he's like, all right, I just get 199 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.200 those things and then you know everything else, I will 200 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.759 follow along with the seventh to Avernist religion, and he 201 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:54.879 would always go through. He wouldn't go to church except 202 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.679 when Saturday fell on Christmas, so it's like once every 203 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.720 seven years or something like that. But yet he had 204 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.240 his own kind of in a way, he was almost 205 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:08.679 more spiritual than her because he was He's very very 206 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:10.639 spiritual in kind of his own way, but he kind 207 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:12.720 of held his own religion, if that makes any sense. 208 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:16.519 Yeah. And another testament to his character too is that 209 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:20.159 he that he spoke out against the communist agitators in 210 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.759 terms of the terms of the paranoia about it and 211 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.120 called it for, you know, a group of bullies just 212 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:28.919 damaging people. So he was a guy that really had 213 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.240 a lot of integrity. So yeah, it really defies the 214 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:34.000 stereotype of what people immediately think of now when you 215 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:36.600 talk about you know, you know, murder trial lawyer. 216 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:40.600 So yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, McCarthy is maybe because 217 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.120 you know, nowadays people look at that and oh, yeah, 218 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:45.639 of course McCarthy's the bad guy. But at that time 219 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:47.799 with a lot of people forget is that he was 220 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.360 actually the popular one at that time, and to speak 221 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.120 out against him was very unpopular. But that was something 222 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:57.919 my grandfather. He didn't mind being in the minority. If 223 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:00.799 he felt something was right, it up for it and 224 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:02.519 usually was proven right in the end. 225 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:07.679 Now you also talk about, of course, your your father, 226 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:10.519 and because he has a role in this story, as 227 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:17.000 you do, and and also John Junior, and so tell 228 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:22.039 us about life with this again important lawyer, but then 229 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:25.960 very reserved kind of person as well. And like you say, 230 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:28.559 you come from a family of attorneys, but yet you 231 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.440 did not want to be attorney. Tell us about the uh, 232 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:36.159 your your father and his brother and living under the 233 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:43.440 with John. Yeah, you know, it's funny that you don't. 234 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:47.279 You know, sometimes we don't really recognize the elements of these. 235 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:49.879 You know, my great grandmother lived to be over one 236 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:53.399 hundred and she wrote in a covered wagon in Nebraska, 237 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.240 and people asked her about it and she goes, it's 238 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.120 just living. Why are you fascinated by this? And because us, 239 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:00.240 you know, we grow up with the stuff. We don't 240 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.120 even even was one of the Beatles even said, you know, 241 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:03.720 somebody asked him what was it like being a Beetle, 242 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:05.000 and be goause, I don't know what's it like not 243 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:09.000 being a Beatle. You don't even recognize the stuff going 244 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.600 around you, especially when you're younger. And now that I'm 245 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.080 older and I've really started researching this stuff, I'm just like, 246 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.639 oh my god, I wish, yeah, I so much want 247 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:20.200 to ask my grandfather so many things because at the time, 248 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:22.360 you know what what impressed me was he taught me 249 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:25.960 how to slurp spaghetti. To me, that was the big thing, 250 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.240 you know, about him. And but you know, now realizing 251 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.200 all of this stuff, and and you know, I mean 252 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:36.000 with my dad, it was just more the usual kind 253 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:38.279 of you know, growing up with him and being as 254 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:42.279 a teenager, you know, rebelling and resenting this or that. 255 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:44.720 But you know, then realizing, oh, you know, later on, 256 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:46.559 oh my god, look at all these you know, things 257 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.559 that he did. And I've really loved the story between 258 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:53.559 the two. And then my uncle who actually lives I'm 259 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.960 in Lincoln at the moment, and both my dad and 260 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:01.039 uncle John uh still live here. The dynamic between the 261 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.039 two of them, as you see in the book, they're 262 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:04.480 you know, close in age, and they kind of grew 263 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:07.480 up together, and you can see it whenever they're there together. 264 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.639 It's one of those things where they're just you can 265 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:14.879 tell they grew up together because of this little communication 266 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.840 without even needing to say very much. So, yeah, you know, 267 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:21.720 it's unfortunately, there's not a lot of exciting things to say. 268 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.159 I even worked at the law office and was surrounded 269 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.840 by this historical stuff. I mean we, in fact, we 270 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:29.840 have the few gate files in the garage here in 271 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:32.440 this in this box. But to me, it's always been 272 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:34.200 just oh yeah, that's the And every now and then 273 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:35.639 somebody would come over and they'd be like, oh, oh 274 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:37.519 my god, this is like a big part of history, 275 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:40.320 and I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess it is, you know. 276 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:43.120 And then of course I guess you asked about the 277 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:44.799 law too. I you know, part of the reason I 278 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.399 didn't want to go into it was because, for one thing, 279 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.960 I've always been a story person, and I think it 280 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.879 was seeing what they do and it's just how dry 281 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.799 it is the law is that I was, you know, 282 00:14:55.879 --> 00:14:58.519 not particularly attractive to it. And my dad was actually 283 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.559 very supportive that I kind of went away from it, 284 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.320 not because he wasn't proud of what He's always been 285 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:05.879 very proud of what he did, but he's very disappointed 286 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:08.120 by the direction the law has gone and how it's 287 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:10.679 become very much of a you know, see how much 288 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.200 money you can sort of yank out of people type 289 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.639 of a situation and trying through the media, which my 290 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.919 grandfather sort of accidentally. 291 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:19.360 Put a start to. 292 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.679 But they, you know, they wish they could put the 293 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:22.720 genie back in a bottle. 294 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.720 Yeah, well he was just reacting hesitant to be able 295 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:29.919 to do that, to do that in the first place. 296 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.519 But so without what we're getting ahead of ourselves now 297 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:38.440 now was a very interesting part of the story. Portion 298 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:44.480 of the story is the incident that happens where you 299 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.240 bring the reader really into the story by having your 300 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:51.919 father answer the phone. I believe in the home one 301 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.000 day again you say it's just like any other home, 302 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.159 So nobody you're taking this for granted and and realize 303 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:01.120 in retrospect, everybody realized in retort, oh yeah, we're part 304 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:06.039 of American Now. Now, tell us about the incident that 305 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:09.679 happened and how it happened. I'm referring to the phone 306 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:17.279 call at the home one day and are you still there? Yes, 307 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.799 Oh okay, sorry I thought I lost it. Yeah, yeah. 308 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:24.879 The he just apparently, in fact, the way it was 309 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:28.320 ascribed to me was so casual, which is another reason 310 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:30.080 why it took me so long to write. I could 311 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.440 have written this years ago, but I you know, just 312 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:37.320 recently wrote it, because so much of this stuff was 313 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:39.919 mentioned grasually to me. Oh yeah, you know, I picked 314 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:43.399 up the phone and there was this death threat there, 315 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:45.279 or they even said a neck tie party, you know, 316 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.639 waiting for me, which I probably didn't even understand the 317 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.799 first few times I heard it, but later on I'm like, 318 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.840 wait a second, you were sixteen and getting a death threat, 319 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.039 and oh yeah, yeah, you know, and then just kind 320 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.559 of changed the subject or whatever. So, yeah, a number 321 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:03.759 of these incidents, which are really like major historical incidents 322 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:06.279 I've just kind of grown up with. And he just 323 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:08.079 sort of said, you know, said it like it was. 324 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.119 There was no big I mean, basically, in terms of 325 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.119 the story itself, he just got home from school and 326 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.720 answered the phone. Somebody just said, you know, let your 327 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:17.759 dad know there's a neck tie party waiting for him 328 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.559 up here. In Bennett and hung up, and my dad 329 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.720 was like, Oh, I know what case my grand my 330 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.480 dad just took the kind of a kind of a 331 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.519 thing and they didn't for whatever reason they off. From 332 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.359 the way they describe it, it sounds like they didn't take 333 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.039 them too seriously. I guess they knew that no way 334 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.160 was actually going to come by, but they knew people 335 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:38.000 were really angry. 336 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.119 Now I think it's time to at least acknowledge that. 337 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:48.119 We'll say, what is the story that the media has 338 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.000 put out and we're at the beginning of this murder spree, 339 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:55.519 So tell us about how the story is developing, how 340 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.759 the media is framing the story, and how it's sort 341 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.240 of received. Again, it's in the introduction we talk about 342 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:07.279 how it just terrorized Nebraska. If people are can go 343 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.119 back fifty five years. Also, it is at least a 344 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.240 time of perceived innocence, and to a certain degree, it 345 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:15.839 certainly was in terms of now you have a serial killer, 346 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:20.720 you know, anti heroes or heroes or you know, humanizing 347 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:24.200 serial killers on television programs. But take us back to 348 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:29.240 what this effect was prime actually was and how it 349 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:29.960 was reported. 350 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:37.119 Yeah, you know, at a time, essentially it was you know, 351 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.160 as it was going on, there was so much fear 352 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.480 and nobody really knew, you know, what was going on. 353 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:44.640 But then when they actually one of the things that 354 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:46.480 made the time kind of innocent was sort of this 355 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.759 trust in the police, and if the police just said 356 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.160 this is what happened, it was just sort of taken 357 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.799 for granted, well that's what happened. And the police had 358 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.640 really made some major mistakes. So one thing, Charlie Tarkweather 359 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.440 had murder somebody the year before, and there had been 360 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.359 plenty of people who had said he pointed direct the 361 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:07.440 finger directly at Charlie, and the police had not followed 362 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:10.359 it up. And now that Charlie was out killing more people, 363 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.839 I think there was a realization, oh man, we screwed 364 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:15.440 this up. We need to kind of cover this up. 365 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.359 So they kind of started perceiving, you know, perceiving it 366 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.839 from their own direction, and they you know, at a 367 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:23.240 certain point, we're just like, well, Carol Fegate is with 368 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.000 them willingly, and we have a you know, an arrest 369 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.519 worn out for her, an also of thing, even though 370 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.720 she was leaving clues behind for them to follow with 371 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:34.480 which once again they they made mistakes and did not 372 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.880 follow them, et cetera. So they kind of came up 373 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.000 with this whole thing of well, she's she's his girlfriend, 374 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.839 and she's with them willingly, et cetera, et cetera. 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