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Speaker 5: Loop Toad, you are now listening to True Murder, The
Speaker 5: most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors
Speaker 5: that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 3: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 3: program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 3: history and the authors that have written about them. In
Speaker 3: nineteen fifty eight, year old Charlie Starkweather, when on a
Speaker 3: murder spree that paralyzed Nebraska, shocked the nation, and left
Speaker 3: eleven people dead. With him when he was captured was
Speaker 3: his fourteen year old ex girlfriend, Carol Fugate. The questions
Speaker 3: soon became was she a kidnapped victim or a heartless accomplice.
Speaker 3: Appointed to her case, attorney John MacArthur initially accepted the
Speaker 3: assignment out of a sense of constitutional duty, but as
Speaker 3: he delve deeper, he found that the truth was far
Speaker 3: more complicated than anyone was letting on up. Against incredible
Speaker 3: odds and with a strong conviction of her innocence, MacArthur
Speaker 3: remained with Carrol and fought for her freedom for eighteen years.
Speaker 3: For this service, he took no pay, accepting the case
Speaker 3: pro bono. This book follows the long struggle of MacArthur,
Speaker 3: his partner Merril Reller, and John's son James, as they
Speaker 3: took on the Nebraska legal system and a public that
Speaker 3: had already determined Carroll's guilt before ever hearing a word
Speaker 3: of tests morning. The story continues through all it influenced,
Speaker 3: such as Stephen King, who became a horror writer because
Speaker 3: of it, Bruce Springsteen, who wrote a whole album about it,
Speaker 3: Terrence Malick, Oliver Stone, Martin Sheen, and Peter Jackson, who
Speaker 3: wrote his first major movie based on the stark Weather
Speaker 3: Fugate incident. Pro Bono explores aspects of this incredible story
Speaker 3: that have never been revealed before and sheds new light
Speaker 3: on these terrifying and complex events. The book that we're
Speaker 3: featuring this evening is pro Bono, The Eighteen Year Defense
Speaker 3: of Carol Ann Fugate, with my guest journalist and filmmaker
Speaker 3: Jeff MacArthur. Welcome to the program and thank you for
Speaker 3: agreeing this interview. Jeff MacArthur, thank you, thank you for
Speaker 3: having me Dan, Thank you very much. Incredible story, and
Speaker 3: we're going to take our audience, our international audience and
Speaker 3: our American audience back in time about fifty five years.
Speaker 3: So this is a fantastic story and one of the
Speaker 3: most important legals stories in American history.
Speaker 5: I got to.
Speaker 3: Say, so, I'm really glad that we're covering this this evening. Cool. Now,
Speaker 3: first off, before we and let's not try to give
Speaker 3: too much away, because I love the way you laid
Speaker 3: out this book and how everything is revealed and how
Speaker 3: everybody is introduced and how the story unfolds. So we're
Speaker 3: going to, you know, try to follow it somewhat like
Speaker 3: that and spoilers and yeah, and just tell the story.
Speaker 3: You know, this this incredible story. Now, First off, what
Speaker 3: is your professional background? And I think this is important,
Speaker 3: and how are you related to John MacArthur? First tell
Speaker 3: us tell us.
Speaker 6: That please, Well, I'm the grandson of John MacArthur. James
Speaker 6: MacArthur is my father, who was one of the other attorneys.
Speaker 6: And I grew up actually not wanting to be an attorney,
Speaker 6: even though I came from this lineage of them. I
Speaker 6: was more interested in storytelling, and so I started with
Speaker 6: books as a kid, but then turned to film. I
Speaker 6: was interested in doing that, wound up going to film
Speaker 6: school and at New York University, then moved to LA
Speaker 6: for obvious reasons, to follow the film career. And after
Speaker 6: a number of years I just kind of circled back
Speaker 6: around and realized, you know, it'd be a good idea
Speaker 6: to write a book about some things, and including this
Speaker 6: one that had been around in my life, you know,
Speaker 6: my whole life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you sort of covered my next question, But really,
Speaker 3: why did you feel so compelled? There's been so much written,
Speaker 3: so many movies inspired, like we mentioned in the like
Speaker 3: I mentioned in the opening, there's been countless newspaper articles, editorials,
Speaker 3: I say, movie versions. There's been songs, there's been albums,
Speaker 3: there's been people speaking about it. Why did you feel compelled?
Speaker 3: You know, like you say, you're a filmmaker, Why did
Speaker 3: you feel compelled? And at this time, what was your
Speaker 3: reason for writing this book?
Speaker 6: Well, you know, it was just after seeing the story
Speaker 6: sort of inaccurately portrayed so often, and you know a
Speaker 6: lot of times when somebody a lot of times when
Speaker 6: someone says inaccurate, they mean, well they wore different color
Speaker 6: suit or something.
Speaker 3: In this case.
Speaker 6: It's just been there's been this belief that Carol this
Speaker 6: was basically another Bonnie and Clyde, that Carol went with
Speaker 6: her boyfriend Charlie. In fact, when you read things about it,
Speaker 6: Charlie and his girlfriend Carol, and they forget to mention
Speaker 6: that she had broken up with them a few days before.
Speaker 6: And you know, I mean, there's so many elements about
Speaker 6: the story that have been mistold, misplayed, and what I
Speaker 6: grew up with. It wasn't just a matter of hey,
Speaker 6: the record should be straight, but to me, it was
Speaker 6: a much more the actual truth was a much more
Speaker 6: interesting story. And I know it seems, you know, I
Speaker 6: seem biased because I'm from the attorney attorney's family, but
Speaker 6: I actually went and researched it independent. I was like,
Speaker 6: I really want to know what this thing is all about.
Speaker 6: So I read the original trial transcripts and all sorts
Speaker 6: of things and found them far far more fascinating story
Speaker 6: than what had been portrayed in movies and books. And
Speaker 6: it was just more too complicated for a movie as well.
Speaker 6: So I just I said, you know what, this should
Speaker 6: be a book. And that's why that's why I ended
Speaker 6: up doing it.
Speaker 3: Great now tell us about your grandfather, John MacArthur. Basically
Speaker 3: we get to an introduction through all of the all
Speaker 3: of the events in the book that you speak about,
Speaker 3: but also we get an introduction to him as you
Speaker 3: introduce him in early in the books. So let's get
Speaker 3: a sort of a cursory introduction to your grandfather who
Speaker 3: he was as a lawyer and the kind of lawyer
Speaker 3: he was, and again give us sort of the framework
Speaker 3: of the time, so that we've got sort of a
Speaker 3: context for that.
Speaker 6: You know, Yeah, I'm glad that you bring up the
Speaker 6: idea of the framework of the time, because it's it's
Speaker 6: interesting today you say lawyer, and people get this image
Speaker 6: of the guy from Breaking Bad, you know, it's just
Speaker 6: so much of the sort of sleaziness et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 6: And in fact, actually at that particular time, law was
Speaker 6: much more noble profession. Now, of course you always have,
Speaker 6: you know, people who were in for various reasons and stuff,
Speaker 6: but he had a lot more people who really believed
Speaker 6: in what they were doing. And my grandfather actually referred
Speaker 6: to it as the practical application of philosophy, uh, and
Speaker 6: that was more his what he believed in, what he liked.
Speaker 6: He saw himself not so much of a defender of
Speaker 6: individual uh, you know, clients, but rather a defender of
Speaker 6: the constitution, and he believed that that's really.
Speaker 3: What it was all what it was all about. As
Speaker 3: a lawyer, and.
Speaker 6: He was very h He had a lot of credibility
Speaker 6: around town, was very well respected because of because of
Speaker 6: his integrity essentially, but he also really understood a lot
Speaker 6: of the situations of a lot of people who were
Speaker 6: in financial difficulty and all that sort of things. So
Speaker 6: he would sometimes work as a lawyer for somebody as
Speaker 6: a trade of goods. So there are a lot of
Speaker 6: farmers who they couldn't pay any pay him anything, but
Speaker 6: they had certain items. And there was one story about
Speaker 6: when he was given a pig and he gave it
Speaker 6: as a pet to one of his to one of
Speaker 6: his kids, because was the payment he had gotten for
Speaker 6: being an attorney. So that's sort of what he was
Speaker 6: as an attorney and as a person. He was just
Speaker 6: a very quiet, reserved kind of person who didn't let
Speaker 6: a lot out, either verbally or emotionally. But he really
Speaker 6: enjoyed hanging around a lot of people who have, you know,
Speaker 6: very dynamic personalities and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was interesting too that he's this dynamic
Speaker 3: speaker and of course he's not dealing with, as we see,
Speaker 3: not a minor case, but a very very important, major
Speaker 3: case of life and death. And yet at home he's
Speaker 3: this quiet guy. And what I found interesting too is
Speaker 3: maybe can tell the story of his wife was Seventh
Speaker 3: Day Adventist, but what was How is John MacArthur, despite
Speaker 3: what his wife wanted him to do, sort of testament
Speaker 3: to his character.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's an interesting, interesting question, I hope, and unless
Speaker 6: if there's something else you were meaning, let me know.
Speaker 6: But basically, yeah, as far as being a some day uh,
Speaker 6: he was agnostic, but he married this woman who was
Speaker 6: very strongly religious and really very strongly in a lot
Speaker 6: of people don't necessarily know Seven to Adventism. It's essentially
Speaker 6: the idea of it was now going into.
Speaker 3: The whole thing.
Speaker 6: One of the important aspects of it is the seventh
Speaker 6: Day Saturday being this uh, not only the day they worship,
Speaker 6: but having.
Speaker 3: A lot of rules and restrictions to it mean you.
Speaker 6: Can't watch TV from sunset Friday night to sunset Saturday night.
Speaker 6: But he was just lea and he was okay, you know,
Speaker 6: very much going along with it, except he would not
Speaker 6: give up sid Theezer, the boxing matches, and in particular
Speaker 6: Nebraska football. So he's like, all right, I just get
Speaker 6: those things and then you know everything else, I will
Speaker 6: follow along with the seventh to Avernist religion, and he
Speaker 6: would always go through. He wouldn't go to church except
Speaker 6: when Saturday fell on Christmas, so it's like once every
Speaker 6: seven years or something like that. But yet he had
Speaker 6: his own kind of in a way, he was almost
Speaker 6: more spiritual than her because he was He's very very
Speaker 6: spiritual in kind of his own way, but he kind
Speaker 6: of held his own religion, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And another testament to his character too is that
Speaker 3: he that he spoke out against the communist agitators in
Speaker 3: terms of the terms of the paranoia about it and
Speaker 3: called it for, you know, a group of bullies just
Speaker 3: damaging people. So he was a guy that really had
Speaker 3: a lot of integrity. So yeah, it really defies the
Speaker 3: stereotype of what people immediately think of now when you
Speaker 3: talk about you know, you know, murder trial lawyer.
Speaker 6: So yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, McCarthy is maybe because
Speaker 6: you know, nowadays people look at that and oh, yeah,
Speaker 6: of course McCarthy's the bad guy. But at that time
Speaker 6: with a lot of people forget is that he was
Speaker 6: actually the popular one at that time, and to speak
Speaker 6: out against him was very unpopular. But that was something
Speaker 6: my grandfather. He didn't mind being in the minority. If
Speaker 6: he felt something was right, it up for it and
Speaker 6: usually was proven right in the end.
Speaker 3: Now you also talk about, of course, your your father,
Speaker 3: and because he has a role in this story, as
Speaker 3: you do, and and also John Junior, and so tell
Speaker 3: us about life with this again important lawyer, but then
Speaker 3: very reserved kind of person as well. And like you say,
Speaker 3: you come from a family of attorneys, but yet you
Speaker 3: did not want to be attorney. Tell us about the uh,
Speaker 3: your your father and his brother and living under the
Speaker 3: with John. Yeah, you know, it's funny that you don't.
Speaker 6: You know, sometimes we don't really recognize the elements of these.
Speaker 6: You know, my great grandmother lived to be over one
Speaker 6: hundred and she wrote in a covered wagon in Nebraska,
Speaker 6: and people asked her about it and she goes, it's
Speaker 6: just living. Why are you fascinated by this? And because us,
Speaker 6: you know, we grow up with the stuff. We don't
Speaker 6: even even was one of the Beatles even said, you know,
Speaker 6: somebody asked him what was it like being a Beetle,
Speaker 6: and be goause, I don't know what's it like not
Speaker 6: being a Beatle. You don't even recognize the stuff going
Speaker 6: around you, especially when you're younger. And now that I'm
Speaker 6: older and I've really started researching this stuff, I'm just like,
Speaker 6: oh my god, I wish, yeah, I so much want
Speaker 6: to ask my grandfather so many things because at the time,
Speaker 6: you know what what impressed me was he taught me
Speaker 6: how to slurp spaghetti. To me, that was the big thing,
Speaker 6: you know, about him. And but you know, now realizing
Speaker 6: all of this stuff, and and you know, I mean
Speaker 6: with my dad, it was just more the usual kind
Speaker 6: of you know, growing up with him and being as
Speaker 6: a teenager, you know, rebelling and resenting this or that.
Speaker 6: But you know, then realizing, oh, you know, later on,
Speaker 6: oh my god, look at all these you know, things
Speaker 6: that he did. And I've really loved the story between
Speaker 6: the two. And then my uncle who actually lives I'm
Speaker 6: in Lincoln at the moment, and both my dad and
Speaker 6: uncle John uh still live here. The dynamic between the
Speaker 6: two of them, as you see in the book, they're
Speaker 6: you know, close in age, and they kind of grew
Speaker 6: up together, and you can see it whenever they're there together.
Speaker 6: It's one of those things where they're just you can
Speaker 6: tell they grew up together because of this little communication
Speaker 6: without even needing to say very much. So, yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: it's unfortunately, there's not a lot of exciting things to say.
Speaker 6: I even worked at the law office and was surrounded
Speaker 6: by this historical stuff. I mean we, in fact, we
Speaker 6: have the few gate files in the garage here in
Speaker 6: this in this box. But to me, it's always been
Speaker 6: just oh yeah, that's the And every now and then
Speaker 6: somebody would come over and they'd be like, oh, oh
Speaker 6: my god, this is like a big part of history,
Speaker 6: and I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess it is, you know.
Speaker 6: And then of course I guess you asked about the
Speaker 6: law too. I you know, part of the reason I
Speaker 6: didn't want to go into it was because, for one thing,
Speaker 6: I've always been a story person, and I think it
Speaker 6: was seeing what they do and it's just how dry
Speaker 6: it is the law is that I was, you know,
Speaker 6: not particularly attractive to it. And my dad was actually
Speaker 6: very supportive that I kind of went away from it,
Speaker 6: not because he wasn't proud of what He's always been
Speaker 6: very proud of what he did, but he's very disappointed
Speaker 6: by the direction the law has gone and how it's
Speaker 6: become very much of a you know, see how much
Speaker 6: money you can sort of yank out of people type
Speaker 6: of a situation and trying through the media, which my
Speaker 6: grandfather sort of accidentally.
Speaker 3: Put a start to.
Speaker 6: But they, you know, they wish they could put the
Speaker 6: genie back in a bottle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well he was just reacting hesitant to be able
Speaker 3: to do that, to do that in the first place.
Speaker 3: But so without what we're getting ahead of ourselves now
Speaker 3: now was a very interesting part of the story. Portion
Speaker 3: of the story is the incident that happens where you
Speaker 3: bring the reader really into the story by having your
Speaker 3: father answer the phone. I believe in the home one
Speaker 3: day again you say it's just like any other home,
Speaker 3: So nobody you're taking this for granted and and realize
Speaker 3: in retrospect, everybody realized in retort, oh yeah, we're part
Speaker 3: of American Now. Now, tell us about the incident that
Speaker 3: happened and how it happened. I'm referring to the phone
Speaker 3: call at the home one day and are you still there? Yes,
Speaker 3: Oh okay, sorry I thought I lost it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: The he just apparently, in fact, the way it was
Speaker 6: ascribed to me was so casual, which is another reason
Speaker 6: why it took me so long to write. I could
Speaker 6: have written this years ago, but I you know, just
Speaker 6: recently wrote it, because so much of this stuff was
Speaker 6: mentioned grasually to me. Oh yeah, you know, I picked
Speaker 6: up the phone and there was this death threat there,
Speaker 6: or they even said a neck tie party, you know,
Speaker 6: waiting for me, which I probably didn't even understand the
Speaker 6: first few times I heard it, but later on I'm like,
Speaker 6: wait a second, you were sixteen and getting a death threat,
Speaker 6: and oh yeah, yeah, you know, and then just kind
Speaker 6: of changed the subject or whatever. So, yeah, a number
Speaker 6: of these incidents, which are really like major historical incidents
Speaker 6: I've just kind of grown up with. And he just
Speaker 6: sort of said, you know, said it like it was.
Speaker 6: There was no big I mean, basically, in terms of
Speaker 6: the story itself, he just got home from school and
Speaker 6: answered the phone. Somebody just said, you know, let your
Speaker 6: dad know there's a neck tie party waiting for him
Speaker 6: up here. In Bennett and hung up, and my dad
Speaker 6: was like, Oh, I know what case my grand my
Speaker 6: dad just took the kind of a kind of a
Speaker 6: thing and they didn't for whatever reason they off. From
Speaker 6: the way they describe it, it sounds like they didn't take
Speaker 6: them too seriously. I guess they knew that no way
Speaker 6: was actually going to come by, but they knew people
Speaker 6: were really angry.
Speaker 3: Now I think it's time to at least acknowledge that.
Speaker 3: We'll say, what is the story that the media has
Speaker 3: put out and we're at the beginning of this murder spree,
Speaker 3: So tell us about how the story is developing, how
Speaker 3: the media is framing the story, and how it's sort
Speaker 3: of received. Again, it's in the introduction we talk about
Speaker 3: how it just terrorized Nebraska. If people are can go
Speaker 3: back fifty five years. Also, it is at least a
Speaker 3: time of perceived innocence, and to a certain degree, it
Speaker 3: certainly was in terms of now you have a serial killer,
Speaker 3: you know, anti heroes or heroes or you know, humanizing
Speaker 3: serial killers on television programs. But take us back to
Speaker 3: what this effect was prime actually was and how it
Speaker 3: was reported.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, at a time, essentially it was you know,
Speaker 6: as it was going on, there was so much fear
Speaker 6: and nobody really knew, you know, what was going on.
Speaker 6: But then when they actually one of the things that
Speaker 6: made the time kind of innocent was sort of this
Speaker 6: trust in the police, and if the police just said
Speaker 6: this is what happened, it was just sort of taken
Speaker 6: for granted, well that's what happened. And the police had
Speaker 6: really made some major mistakes. So one thing, Charlie Tarkweather
Speaker 6: had murder somebody the year before, and there had been
Speaker 6: plenty of people who had said he pointed direct the
Speaker 6: finger directly at Charlie, and the police had not followed
Speaker 6: it up. And now that Charlie was out killing more people,
Speaker 6: I think there was a realization, oh man, we screwed
Speaker 6: this up. We need to kind of cover this up.
Speaker 6: So they kind of started perceiving, you know, perceiving it
Speaker 6: from their own direction, and they you know, at a
Speaker 6: certain point, we're just like, well, Carol Fegate is with
Speaker 6: them willingly, and we have a you know, an arrest
Speaker 6: worn out for her, an also of thing, even though
Speaker 6: she was leaving clues behind for them to follow with
Speaker 6: which once again they they made mistakes and did not
Speaker 6: follow them, et cetera. So they kind of came up
Speaker 6: with this whole thing of well, she's she's his girlfriend,
Speaker 6: and she's with them willingly, et cetera, et cetera. And
Speaker 6: in the end, when she actually escaped from Charlie, it
Speaker 6: was reported that that that that both of them were captured,
Speaker 6: when in fact, actually she had ran away from Ryan.
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Speaker 3: Charlie and gotten into a police office car and was
Speaker 3: the reason that Charlie was captured the police.
Speaker 6: Rather than reporting that, they started saying, oh no, we
Speaker 6: captured both of them. And they realized, you know, well,
Speaker 6: we already put out an arrest warrant for her. It'll be,
Speaker 6: you know, too embarrassing for us to say, for us
Speaker 6: to essentially say, you know, well we were wrong about
Speaker 6: this or whatever. I mean.
Speaker 3: I don't want to go too much into their heads.
Speaker 6: But basically, they even though the facts were changing and
Speaker 6: they were realizing or they were realizing they were wrong,
Speaker 6: but these things they didn't change it. They just continued
Speaker 6: to tell the papers, Oh yeah, no, they were together willingly,
Speaker 6: they did all this together stuff together. And then newspapers
Speaker 6: unfortunately did not really investigate further. It was more exciting
Speaker 6: and more of a what do you call it, a
Speaker 6: more of a sellable kind of story to say, this
Speaker 6: is the new Bonnie and Clyde.
Speaker 3: So it was sort of splashed all.
Speaker 6: Over the headlines this you know, these this murderous couple
Speaker 6: was together and they're out doing these things. And Carol
Speaker 6: was not even allowed to see these newspapers. She thought
Speaker 6: she was being brought back to the line to testify
Speaker 6: against Charlie and instead, and you know, whenever any newspaper
Speaker 6: reporter would come up to her, she was kind of
Speaker 6: protected from them whatever. And again she thought she was
Speaker 6: being protected, but it, you know, turned out they were
Speaker 6: trying to ask her a question, you know, and continue on,
Speaker 6: you know, oh so why why were your boyfriend or whatever.
Speaker 6: So her story didn't get out until long into the
Speaker 6: you know, as the case was going along, and she
Speaker 6: didn't even see what they were reporting for a while.
Speaker 6: So the story just got out, oh yeah, this boyfriend
Speaker 6: and girlfriend went out on a murder spree together, even
Speaker 6: though the truth was much more complicated.
Speaker 3: Well, let's let's go back, because if our audience isn't confused,
Speaker 3: I'd be surprised. So let's let's go back a little
Speaker 3: bit in terms of because I mean it really, this
Speaker 3: isn't Your book is really about one of the most
Speaker 3: important trials, and you really do make it crystal clear
Speaker 3: why you make it easily accessible. A lot of people
Speaker 3: don't like sort of the monotony, they would say of
Speaker 3: a trial, or some of the tedium or some of
Speaker 3: the repetition. But this is a trial where there are
Speaker 3: very important issues, and you bring those out very easily.
Speaker 3: It's very easily understood. You don't have to be a
Speaker 3: lawyer for this. So we want to go back. There
Speaker 3: are always two versions or three versions of stories. And
Speaker 3: what's essential about this is the legal issues that really
Speaker 3: are pervasive through this entire thing. A keeper in jail
Speaker 3: for eighteen years and convictor in the first place, it's
Speaker 3: much harder to win an appeal than it is once
Speaker 3: you have that conviction. It's much harder to get that overturned.
Speaker 3: In appeal. Appeals are very seldom successful, and they don't
Speaker 3: retry a case. People think, well, maybe they're going to
Speaker 3: go re examine the case, but it's not really exactly
Speaker 3: what they do. So let's go back in terms of
Speaker 3: what the murder spree was exactly how many people what
Speaker 3: kind of crimes were involved, because it hinges on things
Speaker 3: like her family and if she knew and when she knew,
Speaker 3: and you prevent you provide all this information. So let's
Speaker 3: go back and tell a little bit more of the
Speaker 3: story of the murders themselves, and then the capture of
Speaker 3: Charles Starkweather and that story that changes with the police
Speaker 3: officer eventually at trial, which is crucial. So let's go
Speaker 3: back and talk about some of these crimes and what
Speaker 3: the public was convinced that a fourteen year old, This
Speaker 3: is something that's hard to comprehend, especially outside of America,
Speaker 3: is at fourteen year old, we normally don't attribute this
Speaker 3: kind of We don't consider them adults at fourteen years
Speaker 3: of age. We might have a problem with their crime,
Speaker 3: but we don't and immediately assume that they're adults. And
Speaker 3: so tell us what this fourteen year old was supposedly
Speaker 3: had done with their own family and these other couple
Speaker 3: the murders.
Speaker 6: Polease, Okay, yeah, sure, yeah. In fact, actually I usually
Speaker 6: like to talk about it from the point of view
Speaker 6: of what the public knew, because it's very easy for
Speaker 6: me to just say it from Carrol's point of view,
Speaker 6: because that's what you know, I was raised on. But
Speaker 6: I understand that you know, what's provable, you know.
Speaker 3: Is what I usually prefer to go by.
Speaker 6: And essentially, in nineteen fifty seven, in December, a gas
Speaker 6: station attendant was murdered. A lot of people pointed the
Speaker 6: finger at Charlie. There was more than enough evidence that
Speaker 6: he had done it, but the police never even charged him.
Speaker 6: In fact, they never charged anybody with it. Then, at
Speaker 6: the end of January nineteen fifty eight, what is known
Speaker 6: as that Carrol Fugate went to school, She went home
Speaker 6: at the end of school, walked home with somebody and
Speaker 6: then disappeared. And for like about a week she and
Speaker 6: Charlie were you know it, we're inside this home. Nobody
Speaker 6: knew who you know, basically, what had happened to him?
Speaker 6: Oh by the way, she and then like I said,
Speaker 6: she had broken up with him. A few days before
Speaker 6: this happened. Several people came visited the home. She always
Speaker 6: showed up at the door said everybody stick with the
Speaker 6: flu and go away. And she even put a note
Speaker 6: on the door that where she said everyone sick with
Speaker 6: the flu, stay away. And at the end she had
Speaker 6: signed Miss Bartlett and the only Miss Bartlett in the home. Actually,
Speaker 6: because of her mother had remarried and everything, Carol still
Speaker 6: went by fugate. Her mother was missus Fugate, I mean
Speaker 6: it was missus Bartlett to the new marriage, and so
Speaker 6: the only Miss Bartlett was this two year old daughter,
Speaker 6: you know, half sister of Carol, and so it was
Speaker 6: sort of like the clue, and she had underlined three
Speaker 6: times Miss Bartlett. Anyway, so several people came and they
Speaker 6: started realizing something's wrong.
Speaker 3: They read the note.
Speaker 6: They Carol had been pointing, you know, to like putting
Speaker 6: her hand by her mouth and pointing in the direction.
Speaker 6: And so these other people went to the police, including
Speaker 6: Charlie's own brother, and we're trying to say, we think
Speaker 6: something's wrong, you need to go over there, and the
Speaker 6: police just wouldn't go over there, kept telling them, you know,
Speaker 6: you're crazy. Finally just sort of like did a cursory examination.
Speaker 6: Short drop by then left and then Charlie's brother and
Speaker 6: Carol's brother in law go to the house. By that point,
Speaker 6: Charlie and Carol are gone. They actually investigate the house
Speaker 6: and they find three bodies, Carol's mother, her stepfather, and
Speaker 6: her half sister in the chicken coop out back and
Speaker 6: the stepsist or the half sisters in the outhouse or
Speaker 6: the bodies of them. Then essentially the next day they
Speaker 6: discover the body of one of Charlie's friends, who August Meyer,
Speaker 6: who was a farmer way out, you know, on his
Speaker 6: farm several like thirty miles or like twenty miles east
Speaker 6: of town. And then they find two teenagers in a
Speaker 6: storm not storm cellar, like a yeah, yeah, it's like
Speaker 6: a storm cell it's like the place that people could
Speaker 6: go to, you know, get away from like tornadoes or whatever.
Speaker 6: Their bodies are, you know, down in a storm celler area.
Speaker 6: The girl had been raped and the boy had just
Speaker 6: been shot. And then so everybody now thinks, okay, they're
Speaker 6: gone east. They actually discovered some of the murdered girl's
Speaker 6: books west of there and have fallen as if they're
Speaker 6: you know, in a trail going back to Lincoln. But
Speaker 6: they just go they did they go, Well, they must
Speaker 6: have gone east, and so the police go that direction.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: Then like the next day they discovered the bodies of
Speaker 6: this very wealthy, like one of the most well known
Speaker 6: affluent people in town named Ward. His wife Clara Ward
Speaker 6: and then their maid all murdered inside of their home.
Speaker 6: So now Lincoln just.
Speaker 3: Goes well, the whole city goes ballistic.
Speaker 6: Because you know, it's they they thought they could trust,
Speaker 6: you know, and people didn't have locks off, or they
Speaker 6: didn't lock their doors usually just you know, and this
Speaker 6: is a very trusting type of place. Now the National
Speaker 6: Guard is called in. They're going all over the place
Speaker 6: looking for Charlie, anybody who's red headed, because he was
Speaker 6: he had bright red hair. Anybody's red headed as targeted.
Speaker 6: The gun stores emptied out immediately, and yeah, if there's
Speaker 6: this gigantic panic, uh and then so they're looking.
Speaker 3: Everywhere they're from.
Speaker 6: All of a sudden it's discovered or all of a
Speaker 6: sudden f and wyoming. This fourteen girl runs and jumps
Speaker 6: into a police car, points out Charles Stark. Whether the
Speaker 6: guy doesn't see because he's stuck behind a milk truck.
Speaker 6: He looks around around it and sees Charlie wrestling with somebody.
Speaker 6: He's about to kill someone else, he sees. The police officer,
Speaker 6: jumps in his own car, drives away. Turns out he
Speaker 6: had just murdered someone else as well, so that was
Speaker 6: his eleventh victim, and they chased Charlie down and capture him.
Speaker 6: So that's that's the story of the murder three.
Speaker 3: The murder three basically, Yeah, and what I had said,
Speaker 3: and we might as well explain this now while people
Speaker 3: have this idea in their head that initial cop did
Speaker 3: not go after Charles stark Weather, but he called ahead
Speaker 3: and they chased him down. Right, He stayed right, Caryl fugate,
Speaker 3: and he knew very well that of the chain of
Speaker 3: events where she ran to him, and he didn't know
Speaker 3: who Charles stark Weather it was, or at least he
Speaker 3: didn't notice that. That's he didn't identify the perpetrator. She
Speaker 3: did and she ran to him for help and was
Speaker 3: hysterical and did like a victim either that or a
Speaker 3: brilliant actress. So that one rry, go ahead, go ahead. Oh,
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 6: That that is the thing is she would have to
Speaker 6: have been this brilliant actress in order to have pulled
Speaker 6: that off. And later on it was that police officer
Speaker 6: sort of turned on her and said, well, she said
Speaker 6: these incriminating things, but when you actually put it together,
Speaker 6: what he was claiming was that she jumped into his car,
Speaker 6: was hysterical, ah, and it stopped. And when I saw
Speaker 6: him kill everybody, including my parents. Then you know, for
Speaker 6: whatever reason, he turned around and started saying that she
Speaker 6: said things that when you actually acted out, it's absurd.
Speaker 6: There's no way that that human nature wouldn't have acted,
Speaker 6: you know, wouldn't have gone that way. But yeah, they
Speaker 6: that she, you know, she was the reason. And he
Speaker 6: hadn't even seen by his owner mission. He had no idea.
Speaker 6: Now he did, he probably knew who. In fact, he
Speaker 6: did know whose dark Weather was, because it made it
Speaker 6: not only national news, but international news. There are newspapers
Speaker 6: in Russia that talked about this, and you know all over.
Speaker 6: In fact, Peter Jackson, for whatever reason, made his movie
Speaker 6: or wrote a movie in New Zealand that dealt with us, so,
Speaker 6: you know, apparently got everywhere. But this is so he
Speaker 6: had heard stark Weather and apparently his when in her
Speaker 6: rambling and like fearful screaming, she said the word stark Weather, he.
Speaker 3: Just froze up.
Speaker 6: But it was just like stark Weather wasn't supposed to
Speaker 6: be anywhere near there. Lincoln was is eastern Nebraska, and
Speaker 6: there they are in Wyoming, you know, a day's drive away.
Speaker 3: So it was just like, how in.
Speaker 6: The heck did they get up there? And he hesitated
Speaker 6: and he got afraid. Finally, Charli jumps in his car,
Speaker 6: drives away and he gets on his radio, like you said.
Speaker 3: Called up. Some other people chased him down. It was
Speaker 3: it was one of those car chases straight out of
Speaker 3: a movie.
Speaker 6: It was over one hundred miles an hour, raced through
Speaker 6: a town. They actually bumped bumpers a couple of times,
Speaker 6: just absolutely crazy stuff before he finally gave up.
Speaker 3: No, police are obviously anxious to talk to this guy.
Speaker 3: And what is the first statements, because this is very important.
Speaker 3: What are the first statements that he makes to police,
Speaker 3: if any, tell us about the first interview and what
Speaker 3: he says or what he doesn't say in that interview
Speaker 3: with police, especially regarding his ex girlfriend, Carol Fugate, or
Speaker 3: how does he describe her.
Speaker 6: Tell us, Well, the very first thing he when he
Speaker 6: tells the stories, he tells that she had no part
Speaker 6: of it and actually tells the same story that she
Speaker 6: was telling.
Speaker 3: That she is still told the day it was.
Speaker 6: Essentially that he had gone, he had killed her family
Speaker 6: while she was at school. Then when she got home,
Speaker 6: he said, well, they I have them kidnapped. I have
Speaker 6: you know, some friends of mine have them at the
Speaker 6: you know, at their home, and if you don't do
Speaker 6: everything I tell you, then I'm going to call them
Speaker 6: up and have them kill your family. And so she
Speaker 6: went around and you know, just sort of went with
Speaker 6: him everywhere, so, you know, so to avoid having her
Speaker 6: own family killed. And yeah, and he basically described the
Speaker 6: whole thing is just simply them going around and him
Speaker 6: killing everybody and her just kind of following behind but
Speaker 6: not wanting to.
Speaker 3: Be with him.
Speaker 6: And that's the same story he tells. That's the only
Speaker 6: the only time he ever told the same story twice
Speaker 6: was his initial interview, and then a second interview he
Speaker 6: told that same story. But then the third interview they
Speaker 6: went to him and said, oh, by the way, Carol's
Speaker 6: saying that you're crazy, that you're insane, So what'd you
Speaker 6: tell me. The story was that he went, oh, well,
Speaker 6: let me tell you. You know, essentially paraphrasing, but he said, well,
Speaker 6: let me tell you, and then he started telling about
Speaker 6: how she had been a part of it, and she
Speaker 6: had helped them do everything, et cetera, et cetera. But
Speaker 6: then every time he told the story was completely different.
Speaker 3: Was that all that they had said to him? Because
Speaker 3: they said, why is it that he would be a
Speaker 3: crazy person? Is it would set him off? It was
Speaker 3: a little more complicated and a little more conspiratorial than that,
Speaker 3: wasn't it.
Speaker 6: Sort Of It was just essentially they were, you know,
Speaker 6: going to him from you know, not not having any
Speaker 6: other counsel there or whatever. But yeah, it was just
Speaker 6: the county attorney and a couple others would just sort
Speaker 6: of show up at his at his cell and essentially
Speaker 6: they were they were wanting. It came down to basically
Speaker 6: they were going to be trying her as well, which
Speaker 6: by the way, they didn't tell her. They they told her, oh, yeah,
Speaker 6: we want you to tell us about what Charlie did,
Speaker 6: and then they would get all this information about her.
Speaker 6: But then when they went to you know, meanwhile they
Speaker 6: were trying to get Charlie to testify against because they're
Speaker 6: going to have his trial and then they were going
Speaker 6: to have her trial, and they wanted him to be
Speaker 6: the star witness at her trial and tell her or
Speaker 6: tell them that she did all these things. And whenever
Speaker 6: they when they first started asking him, you know, about
Speaker 6: the story. He was saying, oh, no, she had no
Speaker 6: part of it, and they kept being like, well, wasn't
Speaker 6: she didn't she do this?
Speaker 3: Didn't she do that?
Speaker 6: No, No, she had no part of it or whatever,
Speaker 6: and they kept trying to kind of find out if
Speaker 6: she had done anything, like they were trying to feed
Speaker 6: him something. He wouldn't do it until, like I say,
Speaker 6: they came by and they said essentially just said, yeah,
Speaker 6: she's she's saying that you're crazy. And that's the one
Speaker 6: thing he couldn't stand is is I mean he literally
Speaker 6: could have at least tried to get saved his life
Speaker 6: by by taking the insanity play, but he felt felt
Speaker 6: so strongly about not being called insane that he wouldn't
Speaker 6: even take the insanity play. So when she said he's
Speaker 6: you know, when he found out that she's saying he's crazy,
Speaker 6: which she actually wash, he just went ballistic and was like, Okay,
Speaker 6: I'm going to take her down with me too.
Speaker 3: Basically, well, there was a part of this story that
Speaker 3: that you know, they did get right in you know,
Speaker 3: you know, Oliver Stones movie and some things, and that
Speaker 3: he seemed to be really enjoying this infamy and you
Speaker 3: know that there was you do make a comment that
Speaker 3: he looked very much like James Dean, but with this
Speaker 3: bright schlock of hair or shock of hair and these
Speaker 3: green eyes when he's about five foot five. But he was,
Speaker 3: you know, a character that again very much looked like
Speaker 3: James Dean, and the media played upon that. But he
Speaker 3: seems like he seen to enjoy his moment in the limelight,
Speaker 3: and he certainly didn't want it in his family as well.
Speaker 3: Didn't want him to be depicted as crazy and refused
Speaker 3: to believe in that regardless of it would save his life.
Speaker 6: Right, you know, yeah, as far as yeah, he was concerned.
Speaker 6: He just was eating it up because up to this
Speaker 6: point he'd always been overlooked and made fun of and
Speaker 6: looked down upon. And you know, finally he had the
Speaker 6: sort of quote unquote respect and in a weird kind
Speaker 6: of way. I mean, when he came into the courthouse,
Speaker 6: there was a doctor giving testimony. Now he was a
Speaker 6: doctor who probably has you know, either I forget if
Speaker 6: he was a research doctor, you know, but in any event,
Speaker 6: I mean, he was somebody who really is to be respected,
Speaker 6: any doctors to be respected. But yet the audience wasn't
Speaker 6: looking at him, and the or the crowded courthouse wasn't
Speaker 6: looking at him. They were looking at Charlie when he
Speaker 6: came in, and he just ate it up and loved it.
Speaker 6: And to him it was kind of like the more
Speaker 6: I tell these stories, the more everybody is, you know,
Speaker 6: eating up, eating up my words, anything that I say.
Speaker 6: And so he loved. The source of thought is I'd
Speaker 6: rather have these few months of total attention in the
Speaker 6: lifetime of being you know, looked down upon and scorned
Speaker 6: and all that. Well, his family, meanwhile, you're right, there
Speaker 6: was a certain pride that existed amongst them that if
Speaker 6: they you know, if he was considered in saying, well,
Speaker 6: that was you know, dishonorable, dishonorable to the entire family.
Speaker 6: And you know, while they didn't necessarily want it to
Speaker 6: be executed, at the same time, you know, his sort
Speaker 6: of death before dishonor type of the thing. And so yeah,
Speaker 6: they really stuff against their own attorney, who wanted to
Speaker 6: use the intenity play.
Speaker 3: They were soup very very much adamantly opposed to that idea.
Speaker 3: The other legal aspect that anybody that knows the lot
Speaker 3: at all, even if you watched Law and Order for
Speaker 3: one one season, you would know that a fourteen year
Speaker 3: old is advised of her rights. And then this particular case,
Speaker 3: basically what they did is they spoke to her without
Speaker 3: any attorney at all. And the reason why she would
Speaker 3: especially have done that because she was under the impression
Speaker 3: and they made this impression towards a fourteen year old
Speaker 3: that she was just giving information about Charles Starkweather. And
Speaker 3: like you say, she stuck to her original story, but
Speaker 3: gave information that later in the hands of the prosecution
Speaker 3: would turn it around in terms of incriminating and damaging
Speaker 3: evidence against her. So that's in combined with and what
Speaker 3: I mentioned about conspiratorial it seems that if you're giving
Speaker 3: a guy a bunch of pack of cigarettes and extra
Speaker 3: food or special treatment of any sort to a guy
Speaker 3: that a loser that's never had any decent treatment in
Speaker 3: his whole life, that's what I'm talking about. They used
Speaker 3: And it was interesting in your book too, And you
Speaker 3: can tell us about this that your grand father had
Speaker 3: a certain ethical code and his friend it was to
Speaker 3: take on this case. Tell us a little bit about that,
Speaker 3: because that's an interesting dynamic in this as well about
Speaker 3: John MacArthur, your grandfather, and this and the eventual prosecutor
Speaker 3: a prosecuting attorney, and in this case.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, in fact, I wish I could have
Speaker 6: put more in there about that, but I do know
Speaker 6: that he and Elmer Shield were friends because they had
Speaker 6: both been in the legal profession for about the same
Speaker 6: amount of time, and Shield had come from an FBI background,
Speaker 6: and the two really respected each other and liked each other.
Speaker 6: And then this and then this thing came along, and
Speaker 6: she'll you know, I mean, it's one thing. I understand
Speaker 6: that prosecuting attorney has to do their job, and they
Speaker 6: have to, you know, take on.
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Speaker 6: From the case that, you know, uh, regardless of the situation,
Speaker 6: they need to, you know, go from their point of view.
Speaker 6: It's the thing it's hard to understand about lawyers is
Speaker 6: even if they don't necessarily agree with it, they have
Speaker 6: to take on the case anyway and show from the
Speaker 6: best point of view. But she all went beyond that.
Speaker 6: First of all, he didn't even need to charge her
Speaker 6: before he knew all the information. He charged her while
Speaker 6: she was still on the road and nobody knew all
Speaker 6: the facts. But also he really started going with all
Speaker 6: of this, these really back alley tactics, and that went
Speaker 6: beyond it. It wasn't just a matter of Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 6: give the point of view from this side. I'm he
Speaker 6: kept on doing these kind of sleazy back alley tricks.
Speaker 3: And I don't know when.
Speaker 6: I mean, unfortunately, because my grandfather was so kind of reserved,
Speaker 6: he didn't really express what it was personally that went on.
Speaker 6: But I can only imagine, you know, here is as
Speaker 6: close you know, a good friend of his that you
Speaker 6: know that's sort of doing all this stuff, and so
Speaker 6: I can only imagine that they I mean, it seems
Speaker 6: as if after that they weren't quite as close. But unfortunately,
Speaker 6: I don't know a lot about it. But but yeah,
Speaker 6: it had to have affected their friendship. That's one of
Speaker 6: the reasons why I'd have a hard time being a
Speaker 6: lawyer because one of the things that my grandfather said
Speaker 6: to my dad, and my dad's passed on as well,
Speaker 6: he said, he if you take anything personally, you don't,
Speaker 6: you're not a lawyer for long. And I don't think
Speaker 6: I could do. I think I'd get so angry at
Speaker 6: some of the tricks that these people pull that I
Speaker 6: don't think I could face them again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's certainly a lot of politics, and especially in
Speaker 3: the American legal system, that the certain seem to affect outcomes,
Speaker 3: sometimes negatively, you know, because yeah, there's a lot more
Speaker 3: than just the case itself, and a lot more than
Speaker 3: just doing your job when there's political motivations there. So, anyway,
Speaker 3: getting back to this story here, now they have now
Speaker 3: the change story, and so what is your grandfather's tactic
Speaker 3: in all of this? How does he? First off, how
Speaker 3: does he a lawyer, regardless of their client's guilt, will
Speaker 3: defend them to the best of their ability. And your
Speaker 3: grandfather was, you know, believed in that, but often or
Speaker 3: most often the clients are guilty. So tell us about
Speaker 3: this sort of transformation or at least the event that
Speaker 3: you know or tell us about the process where he
Speaker 3: ends up believing her and which just just adds to
Speaker 3: his zeal in defending her.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you went in, you know, like you said at
Speaker 6: the beginning, he went in with a sense of constitutional
Speaker 6: duty that this is uh, what do you call that?
Speaker 6: That essentially he asked to as you were saying, he
Speaker 6: hasd to just simply represent somebody, regardless of his own
Speaker 6: personal feelings on it, uh, and he would do it.
Speaker 3: To his best best of his ability.
Speaker 6: But when he started, you know, when he started speaking
Speaker 6: with her, he started seeing how she just very obviously
Speaker 6: had not been with him willingly. I mean, it wasn't
Speaker 6: to him, it wasn't even questionable. It was just there
Speaker 6: were so many reasons to believe that she didn't want
Speaker 6: to be with this guy.
Speaker 3: Would be to be with Charles Starkweather.
Speaker 6: And he also saw how the prosecution were doing a
Speaker 6: lot of dirty tricks right from the beginning. So yeah,
Speaker 6: became very personally involved, which you know, I mean, for
Speaker 6: the most part, he did everything to his best of
Speaker 6: his ability regardless. But when this because of his personal
Speaker 6: you know, personal feelings on it, you know, he and
Speaker 6: there was just yeah, like a sort of personal zeal
Speaker 6: to it. I think it really more came out because
Speaker 6: he would have done as better that he could, regardless,
Speaker 6: but it especially came out after she was still pronounced guilty.
Speaker 6: He stuck with her, which he didn't necessarily do with
Speaker 6: other clients, and he continued to represent her completely pro bono,
Speaker 6: which is why I called the give that name to
Speaker 6: the book for you know, eighteen years, just because he
Speaker 6: believed so firmly in her innocence. And I think it
Speaker 6: also actually comes to think of it, did I think
Speaker 6: comes through in the trial because sometimes when you look
Speaker 6: in the transcript, even though it's very dry and just
Speaker 6: question answer, question answer every now and then, you can
Speaker 6: see a little bit of personality when you know the
Speaker 6: way somebody does it. At one particular point, if the
Speaker 6: transcript says something like he's you know, he begins to mutter,
Speaker 6: he's like making objection and continues to you know, usually
Speaker 6: it's objection based on one thing, but he said objection
Speaker 6: and he had like leading misleading, and he goes like
Speaker 6: goes on for like five different words, and then it
Speaker 6: just says continues muttering and just like, you know, mister MacArthur,
Speaker 6: I can't even understand you, and you could just tell
Speaker 6: he was getting very frustrated. Buy this beyond the level
Speaker 6: of just this is a client for me, you know.
Speaker 3: Now, tell us about the trial itself, because you know,
Speaker 3: part of this story is the eighteen year battle, and
Speaker 3: of course in parts of this are well she should
Speaker 3: be out now though, oh she certainly will be out now.
Speaker 3: Well this has got to work now and so but
Speaker 3: eighteen years ends up being a lot of failed opportunities,
Speaker 3: let's put it that way. So let's get back to
Speaker 3: the trial itself, because it's fascinating again. You know, one
Speaker 3: of the trials of the century. Tell us how John
Speaker 3: MacArthur tries to defend Carol Fugate after the media. You know,
Speaker 3: basically it's probably one of the first or one of
Speaker 3: the best examples of trial through the media. What does
Speaker 3: your grandfather reluctantly agree to do, and how does he
Speaker 3: go about doing this and what does he actually do
Speaker 3: to rehabilitate the I guess the character of Carol Fugate
Speaker 3: for the public.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, after she was after she was taken in
Speaker 6: the there was all this speculation that she was pregnant,
Speaker 6: and I mean rumors started spreading all over the place,
Speaker 6: and you know, my grandfather. First of all, he goes
Speaker 6: to her and she didn't even know she's being charge.
Speaker 6: He had to sort of explain it to her. But
Speaker 6: then on the other side, you know, you have the
Speaker 6: media wanting to get through and he's like, no, I
Speaker 6: don't want to uh try this, you know, through the media.
Speaker 6: I don't want to h what do you call it? Uh,
Speaker 6: I don't We basically did not want to start what
Speaker 6: his you know, what is happening now, which is you know,
Speaker 6: a lot of times people trying something through the media.
Speaker 6: He wanted it to you know, to stay in the courtroom.
Speaker 6: He cared very much about the way the legal process work,
Speaker 6: and he was very passed about that and not letting it,
Speaker 6: you know, because he didn't like the idea of rumors
Speaker 6: getting out in this or that or whatever. But of course,
Speaker 6: the prosecution from the very beginning was going straight to
Speaker 6: the newspapers saying their side of the story and allowing
Speaker 6: the rumors to continue. And the media was even what
Speaker 6: do you call it, sending it and spreading the rumors,
Speaker 6: sometimes reporting it as facts. So finally, this woman, Ninette Beaver,
Speaker 6: had been trying to get my grandfather to do an
Speaker 6: interview for her boss, Floyd Calver. Uh, and he, you know,
Speaker 6: like I say, he just kept on refusing. But finally,
Speaker 6: after you know, after all this time and all these
Speaker 6: different places we're spreading rumors, he finally calls her up
Speaker 6: and says, Okay, we're gonna do this, but we're gonna
Speaker 6: do it as a press conference. I don't want to
Speaker 6: have just you know, one person uh doing it. I
Speaker 6: want or I don't want her to have to go
Speaker 6: through this multiple times. I'm just gonna have all the
Speaker 6: media there and one person's going to ask the questions.
Speaker 6: So she's like, okay, you know you got to let
Speaker 6: you know, my boss, Floyd Calver do this. And to me,
Speaker 6: it's one of the most exciting moments is when you know,
Speaker 6: she says this actually to my grandfather's partner and he says, no, no,
Speaker 6: he's not going to do it, and she's like, you've
Speaker 6: got to have to work too hard on this, and
Speaker 6: they went, no, we want you to do it. Nte
Speaker 6: Nineette was like this young report, I more like an
Speaker 6: assistant really, but they just trusted her and believed in
Speaker 6: her and wanted her to do this. So all of
Speaker 6: this media across the country shows up and here's this,
Speaker 6: you know what they would consider a hic girl reporter
Speaker 6: in the nineteen fifties when women weren't as well respected,
Speaker 6: being the one to be able to interview Carol and
Speaker 6: to me. As a result, Ynette wound up being kind
Speaker 6: of one of the heroes of the story because she
Speaker 6: became very interested in the story. And that was the
Speaker 6: reason my grandfather liked her, was because unlike a lot
Speaker 6: of reporters, she had a lot of integrity. She was
Speaker 6: curious about the truth, not about what would sell newspapers
Speaker 6: or advertising time or whatever. So she really asked Carol
Speaker 6: some good questions and Carol answered them. But unfortunately, she
Speaker 6: was so kind of nervous that she spoke in this
Speaker 6: very tight kind of way, robotic kind of way, and
Speaker 6: it read to a lot of people. A lot of
Speaker 6: people didn't listen to what she said. They only saw
Speaker 6: the way she said it. And because she looked guilty,
Speaker 6: well therefore, you know, they believe she must be.
Speaker 3: Now this is also it's a press release, and it's
Speaker 3: also trying to rehabilitate the public that will potentially be
Speaker 3: in the pool of jurors, which so you're influencing potential
Speaker 3: juror pool to a certain degree. Anyway, is this a
Speaker 3: dress rehearsal for the trial? And why? Again, most people
Speaker 3: that follow legal trials, murder trials know that you really
Speaker 3: don't put your client up on the stand. Why would
Speaker 3: he do that or why would he why would your
Speaker 3: grandfather consider doing that?
Speaker 6: Well, that's yeah, that's a really good question, because you're right,
Speaker 6: a lot of times you don't want to put your
Speaker 6: own client up there. But yeah, you know, especially in
Speaker 6: a town as small as Lincoln was at that time.
Speaker 6: I mean we're not talking about just you know, talk
Speaker 6: abut around on hundred thousand people or whatever, but it's
Speaker 6: still relatively small, so your jury pool is not going
Speaker 6: to be of a you know, very large number. And
Speaker 6: that's again part of my my grandfather's asthical standards is
Speaker 6: he didn't want to influence the jury. He'd be believed
Speaker 6: in the idea of they go in ignorant, not knowing anything,
Speaker 6: just simply you know, learning about the case there, which
Speaker 6: is why he didn't want to say anything in the press.
Speaker 6: But of course the other side was and they were
Speaker 6: get you know, making people believe certain or not. I
Speaker 6: shouldn't say, making people believe, but they were influencing the
Speaker 6: people of the town in a certain way so that
Speaker 6: the jury would be made up of people who believe
Speaker 6: she was guilty. So yeah, he very reluctantly had that
Speaker 6: the press conference, you know where where they you know,
Speaker 6: a lot of the information got out and so that
Speaker 6: as a result you did have people least seeing the
Speaker 6: other side. But it backfired kind of for him because
Speaker 6: of the way she For her, it was more of
Speaker 6: a of a dignity thing she did. You know again,
Speaker 6: it goes that whole thing of pride. I'm not going
Speaker 6: to look emotional and sad. My grandfather even told her, don't.
Speaker 6: He was afraid if she'd go too far the other
Speaker 6: way and become really emotional, so he said, hold it in. Well,
Speaker 6: she held it in so much that she always answered
Speaker 6: questions like this, and you can even see the interview
Speaker 6: on YouTube. I have it up there with my book,
Speaker 6: and she, yeah, just looked so robotic that people kind
Speaker 6: of turned against her. So that in the trial, my
Speaker 6: grandfather tried again and he's just like, because the only
Speaker 6: people who knew on the road what happened were Charlie
Speaker 6: and Carroll and Charlie was saying that she was guilty
Speaker 6: by this point, so he, you know, the only witness
Speaker 6: he could put up there was well, there were a
Speaker 6: few other people, but for the most part, it was
Speaker 6: Carol to tell her own side of the story. And
Speaker 6: also the other thing is the prosecution read the statement
Speaker 6: that she had given when she didn't know she was
Speaker 6: on trial, that she had given just telling about Charlie,
Speaker 6: but as a result, certain things of the way she
Speaker 6: said it made it sound like she was a part
Speaker 6: of it, and so he put her on the stand
Speaker 6: so that she could explain, well, no, it's.
Speaker 3: Not what I was meaning.
Speaker 6: I was meaning this and that and the other thing,
Speaker 6: so that you know, that was part of why I
Speaker 6: pe it up there. And again, unfortunately I've worked against
Speaker 6: her because she just sort of looked so kind of cold,
Speaker 6: even though she's just trying to not be emotional.
Speaker 3: Essentially. Well, the other thing is too and I think
Speaker 3: we talked about this already, but the resting police officer
Speaker 3: that she ran to also changed the story so that
Speaker 3: it effectively didn't sound so much like she ran to him,
Speaker 3: as he wanted to make himself more heroic, and so
Speaker 3: the story changed, well, it was advantageous to the prosecution.
Speaker 3: So how can that truthful story of her running to
Speaker 3: him being hysterical, and again some of the facts like
Speaker 3: her insistence and you know, being hysterical, but also not
Speaker 3: knowing where her family was, asking about her family, was
Speaker 3: her family safe, or I'll be able to talk to
Speaker 3: my family or what about my family? So most statements
Speaker 3: were in there as well and corroborated a lot of
Speaker 3: the was it the end that had gone to the
Speaker 3: house and she was rebuffed by Carol that evidence was there.
Speaker 3: You're right her grandmother. So was her grandmother? Okay? Yeah?
Speaker 6: Who Actually the police said that she was a crazy
Speaker 6: old woman and she needs to leave her family alone.
Speaker 6: Quit bugging them when he or she was going to
Speaker 6: the police saying, hey, something's going on over there. And
Speaker 6: Charlie even later taunted them with that when they finally
Speaker 6: captured them. He said, you know, if you had caught
Speaker 6: me at such and such a time, none of this
Speaker 6: would have happened. It was like, yeah, please, the assault
Speaker 6: a little further into the wound.
Speaker 3: Why don't you What was the testimony of Charles Starkweather
Speaker 3: at the trial, like.
Speaker 6: It was you Well, first of all, it changed every
Speaker 6: single time he told it, and it was essentially he
Speaker 6: said that Carol had helped them. A lot of the
Speaker 6: stories that exist today come from one of these stories
Speaker 6: and make you can you know, anytime these documentaries say
Speaker 6: this is what happened, you can usually go to the
Speaker 6: trial transcript, which by the way, are on the website
Speaker 6: at provoton dot com or provoton't book dot com. You
Speaker 6: it's yeah, you can see the source in one of
Speaker 6: his in his testimony where essentially he's like, well, she
Speaker 6: did this, she did that.
Speaker 3: But usually the stories themselves, if you follow.
Speaker 6: Them like he'll he'll say what was it that she
Speaker 6: sat and watched TV while he was killing her family?
Speaker 6: But if you continue to read his version of the story,
Speaker 6: what he says is that what was it The mother
Speaker 6: came at him. I was the father came at him
Speaker 6: with a hatchet or something like that, and he shot him,
Speaker 6: and then the mother came running at him with a
Speaker 6: knife and he did a doubt or you know, he
Speaker 6: did a flip like this action hero and shot her.
Speaker 6: And but she, you know, even though he shot her,
Speaker 6: she continued to go at him. Uh, you know, after
Speaker 6: several shots went into her. I mean it basically comes
Speaker 6: out like a shlocky horror film that he very clearly
Speaker 6: you know, had kind of gotten all this from. And
Speaker 6: he tells all of these ridiculous stories. The prosecution is
Speaker 6: he's asked answering these things, would just kind of let
Speaker 6: him go through it, or they would kind of lead
Speaker 6: him through, you know, a version of the story. Then
Speaker 6: my grandfather would get up there and rather you wouldn't
Speaker 6: mock him or anything, but he would have him you know,
Speaker 6: he'd like, well, wait a minute, didn't you say this earlier?
Speaker 6: And then Charlie would then tell yet another story, or
Speaker 6: he would kind of you know, run him through the
Speaker 6: elements of these things. And the more absurd that Charlie got,
Speaker 6: the more my grandfather would essentially have him go well further,
Speaker 6: you know, essentially dig a deeper hole from himself.
Speaker 3: Oh he did that? Huh?
Speaker 6: Well, then what you know how they do this? And
Speaker 6: then after a while just kind of reveal, wait a minute,
Speaker 6: isn't all of this impossible? Until the point where Charlie
Speaker 6: actually kind of quieted down and just you know, even
Speaker 6: kind of admitted that what he had done was wrong.
Speaker 3: But it was interesting too that he was that your
Speaker 3: grandfather did not ask to be to treat him as
Speaker 3: a hostile witness because he wasn't. At some point just
Speaker 3: refused to ask to answer any questions. I've actually never
Speaker 3: heard of a trial where someone didn't compel the person
Speaker 3: to answer the question. It's not right. I don't talk
Speaker 3: about that. Talk about this and incredible. It's an incredible
Speaker 3: trial where you know, you hate again like you say,
Speaker 3: you hate to be biased, but you prevent you present
Speaker 3: the information. And it really is a travesty of justice
Speaker 3: this trial. It really is that they have a foregone
Speaker 3: conclusion and they're making it fit. And that's it because
Speaker 3: the testimony, when your grandfather shoots holes in the testimony,
Speaker 3: it seems like the jurors never heard that, so they
Speaker 3: really didn't weigh in again the information away, you know,
Speaker 3: anyone objectively that looks at those transcripts. So they were
Speaker 3: affected at the trial by something and maybe preconceptions in
Speaker 3: the first place, or the prosecution. And because you present
Speaker 3: the case that everybody, you know, your grandfather fought very
Speaker 3: very hard to present a good defense for Carol Fugate
Speaker 3: and yet tell us what the conclusion was. Obviously, well, yeah, it's.
Speaker 6: And first of all, thank you for that. It's it's
Speaker 6: just nice to hear people saying that when they look
Speaker 6: at it objectively. And it's that's why I actually offer
Speaker 6: the transcripts because it's like, Okay, look, I know I
Speaker 6: sound biased because I'm the defense of the attorney, but
Speaker 6: really look at this objectively, and it's it's hard not
Speaker 6: to see it as ay, like you say, a travesty
Speaker 6: of justice.
Speaker 3: In the end, yeah, they.
Speaker 6: They pronounced her guilty. And when the juries jury members
Speaker 6: were asked, you know what did they base it on?
Speaker 6: They said she looked guilty.
Speaker 3: And that's really who all it was.
Speaker 6: It was just the fact that, you know, she just
Speaker 6: seemed guilty to them, even though the facts were really
Speaker 6: all in her favor. The only person who uh and
Speaker 6: there were there were like three things of testimony against
Speaker 6: the Charlie's, which I mean, how could you believe anything
Speaker 6: he said? The one police officer, who I can understand
Speaker 6: wanting to believe a police officer, but I mean, when
Speaker 6: you really reenact what he says happens, it's physically impossible.
Speaker 6: And this one, this one woman who says she talked
Speaker 6: to I was the wife of one of the police
Speaker 6: officers who or sheriffs who talked to Carol privately in
Speaker 6: a car with no one else present with all the
Speaker 6: windows up, and she says, well, this is what she said,
Speaker 6: and it was never corroborated, and it goes against everything
Speaker 6: else that has been said. So really there was really
Speaker 6: nothing to base it on. But yet they yeah, they did.
Speaker 6: And one of the jurors had actually bet made a
Speaker 6: bet that she would be found guilty. You know, he
Speaker 6: gets more and more absurd, So yeah, she was found
Speaker 6: guilty and then yeah, my grandfather just said I'm going
Speaker 6: to stick with her and until I can get her free.
Speaker 3: Now, the significance of this too is that often I
Speaker 3: want to make this clear too, because when you hear
Speaker 3: pro bono, there are reasons why some lawyers would take
Speaker 3: a case pro bono, not not to you know, deflect
Speaker 3: or denigrate that service for free, because it's a great
Speaker 3: expense and a lot of work, and lawyers don't typically
Speaker 3: work for free. So there is that philanthropy angle there
Speaker 3: that has to be taken into consideration. But a lot
Speaker 3: of people will do a pro bono case because it's
Speaker 3: a high profile case, they don't have death threats against them,
Speaker 3: and it's going to do something for them in terms
Speaker 3: of business with clients, such as the client they're they're
Speaker 3: defending for without any fees. That wasn't the case with
Speaker 3: your grandfather. Wasn't in his career.
Speaker 6: No, actually he he wasn't volunteering or anything. It was
Speaker 6: just that he was assigned.
Speaker 3: The case.
Speaker 6: Actually, the judge's son recently approached me and said that
Speaker 6: he would have He had been actually trying to get
Speaker 6: his partner, Meryl Reller, to be the you know, the attorney,
Speaker 6: but Reller was out of the country on a safari.
Speaker 6: My grandfather just happened to be there and got the
Speaker 6: case and said, okay, sure, I'll take it, and was
Speaker 6: actually offered a certain pay. But they this particular case
Speaker 6: or in Nebraska at that time, I guess they uh
Speaker 6: didn't reveal how much they were going to pay the
Speaker 6: attorney until afterwards. They just sent him a check for
Speaker 6: some reason, and they sent a check that was half
Speaker 6: the amount that they had paid each of stark Weather's
Speaker 6: two attorneys. And and by the way, they allowed dark
Speaker 6: Weather to have two attorneys, but when they came to
Speaker 6: Carol they did not allow uh, my grandfather's partner to
Speaker 6: help them. They were like, no, we're only going to
Speaker 6: allow one attorney to h officially be involved in this case,
Speaker 6: which was not supposed to happen. They're not supposed to
Speaker 6: be dictating that, but they, you know, the judge did,
Speaker 6: and they tried to use that on appeal, and so
Speaker 6: the yeah, and so when the judge determined that, you know,
Speaker 6: because of course neither stark Weather nor a feugate could
Speaker 6: could afford an attorney, so they were you know, being
Speaker 6: given given them I forget, yeah, the exact amount that
Speaker 6: they paid. Yeah, stark Weather's two attorneys twice the amount.
Speaker 6: And so when they my grandfather got that. It's not
Speaker 6: that he was so much like, well, you have to say, memore,
Speaker 6: it's just he was still in faulted by the way
Speaker 6: where they were treating him, the fact they didn't let
Speaker 6: his partner in there, the way they had treated Carol.
Speaker 6: That he just was like, I'm not even going to
Speaker 6: cash that. And his partner ended up cashing it and
Speaker 6: using it for rent for the building. But my grandfather
Speaker 6: was just like, I'm just not even gonna take that,
Speaker 6: and I'm not going to ask Carol for any money.
Speaker 6: I'm just gonna you know, represent her from now on.
Speaker 3: So that was yeah, no, less what I mean he
Speaker 3: was he was appointed, and I know when when you're appointed,
Speaker 3: you're not getting the same fees that you would be
Speaker 3: able to charge or you would charge a private client
Speaker 3: that had money. And that was great to that point
Speaker 3: that you made too, because it was a fraction of
Speaker 3: what he deserved. And we're not talking a lot of money.
Speaker 3: I think you put in a book that was fifty
Speaker 3: six hundred bucks or something. Yeah, I think so a
Speaker 3: long time ago. But we're talking about incredible amount of time.
Speaker 3: And when I talk about pro bono was the eighteen
Speaker 3: years and his personal involvement and when you talk about
Speaker 3: Supreme Court stuff and filing all of the things that
Speaker 3: you need to find while it's more complicated and more
Speaker 3: time consuming. So we're and that's what I'm saying that
Speaker 3: to make the difference is that some lawyers will do
Speaker 3: things completely for free. But then again, there's a vested
Speaker 3: interest in why they're there's a reason why they're doing that,
Speaker 3: and that's for further business that does pay. So that's
Speaker 3: not that wasn't the case with your grandfather at all.
Speaker 6: No, in fact, he was trying to keep pressed away
Speaker 6: from it. He did not like the idea that it
Speaker 6: was so highly publicized and everything, and I think that
Speaker 6: was one of that was the reason he was the
Speaker 6: point at least I heard that that was the case.
Speaker 6: That the judge just simply knew that he even though
Speaker 6: the judge did a lot of the things as well,
Speaker 6: ultimately he knew that my grandfather wouldn't take advantage of
Speaker 6: it and try to further his own means by you know,
Speaker 6: representing her.
Speaker 3: So right, so go ahead, Oh, I was just going
Speaker 3: to say real quick, I allowed it.
Speaker 6: But yeah, to his credit, he never used it as
Speaker 6: in any advertising. He never even would tell people, oh
Speaker 6: yeah I was fugates attorney. He just you know, went
Speaker 6: on and even if you know, his movies were made
Speaker 6: and altra of thing, he never you know, used it
Speaker 6: to the manage or anything.
Speaker 3: He just went, okay, well not my dead. Well yeah,
Speaker 3: that's humility. Yeah. Now, the thing is, we won't have
Speaker 3: enough time to be able to go through why on
Speaker 3: earth they weren't successful at all kinds of you know,
Speaker 3: the state level and then the federal level with appeal.
Speaker 3: But maybe we can just say that and for those
Speaker 3: that are going to pick up the book, that what
Speaker 3: they can encounter is that there are some legal points
Speaker 3: that that keep arising to be able to keep her
Speaker 3: in prison, and one of those is that it's again
Speaker 3: it's a little bit flimsy in light of all the
Speaker 3: evidence we've spoken about, but you know, it is a
Speaker 3: common question, is that why didn't you just leave? And
Speaker 3: so one of the legal issues is that there were,
Speaker 3: at least by someone's testimony, sometimes by Charles stark Weather's testimony,
Speaker 3: that she didn't leave. Now fifty five years later, though
Speaker 3: we've had Patty Hurst back in I don't know, the
Speaker 3: eighties or the seventies, and so we certainly have other
Speaker 3: people that have been kidnapped and held hostage and then
Speaker 3: went out and did certain households or or chores or
Speaker 3: go to a store with their captor. So we understand
Speaker 3: more of the psychology, obviously, of what happens in trauma
Speaker 3: and then people's inability a battered women syndrome, which is
Speaker 3: especially quite successful in many cases in Canada, but in
Speaker 3: the United States as well. We do understand the helplessness
Speaker 3: of some people once they've been traumatized or again all
Speaker 3: the behavior from a psychopathic captor. But tell us why
Speaker 3: essentially she was kept in for those amount of years legally,
Speaker 3: and then maybe well we'll talk about why you think
Speaker 3: essentially she was kept in even despite that.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, legally, First of all, Nebraska really had a
Speaker 6: lot of things where they had to go through a
Speaker 6: lot of jump through a lot of hoops. And I mean,
Speaker 6: but first of all, my grandfather knew they'd never get
Speaker 6: a fair trial in Nebraska because you know, of all
Speaker 6: the emotions around it, et cetera. And then they had
Speaker 6: to go through jump through a lot of hoops that
Speaker 6: they just simply knew, Okay, let's just go through the
Speaker 6: process to get out of Nebraska. And just as they
Speaker 6: got to district court, got out of you know, we're
Speaker 6: getting out of Nebraska, the legislature passed the law. I
Speaker 6: forget what the name of it, because I always grew
Speaker 6: up hearing it as the Keith Carroll in Prison Act.
Speaker 6: I've called something else, but they literally had said when
Speaker 6: they were passing it, you know, to keep a certain
Speaker 6: person in prison. So they had to go through years
Speaker 6: more of going through these loops in Nebraska before they
Speaker 6: finally got to district court, and they wound up being
Speaker 6: turned down on that.
Speaker 3: Which they were very surprised about.
Speaker 6: They originally had another judge who had said he was
Speaker 6: going to give her a new trial and everything, Robert
Speaker 6: ben Pelp, who's the star of my next book, actually
Speaker 6: and then he ultimately accused himself, which we later learned
Speaker 6: was probably because he was related to somebody who worked
Speaker 6: with us or worked with my family. And so this
Speaker 6: other judge then said no, and then it went up
Speaker 6: all the way to the Supreme Court. My grand my
Speaker 6: own father, actually had to what do you call it,
Speaker 6: get passed, you know, to be able to do that,
Speaker 6: and they got all but one. They only needed one
Speaker 6: more vote, and they came one vote short of getting
Speaker 6: a new trial. So unfortunately where they were never able
Speaker 6: to get her a new trial, but they wound up
Speaker 6: getting her out on parole or they've got it commuted first,
Speaker 6: and then we were able to get her out on
Speaker 6: the parole.
Speaker 3: Now, with all the research that you've done, and I
Speaker 3: mean there's nobody that has you know, gone the lengths
Speaker 3: that you have to be able to get to the
Speaker 3: root of this, to get to the truth of this,
Speaker 3: why do you believe it took this much effort despite
Speaker 3: your herculean efforts of your grandfather and your father and yourself,
Speaker 3: I mean everyone in your family. Why did they keep
Speaker 3: Carol Anne Fugate in for those many years? What is
Speaker 3: the real I mean overall, more than anything else, more
Speaker 3: than you know, a little bit of reasonable doubt or
Speaker 3: well testimony of this person. It's in a law you know,
Speaker 3: a law enforcement professional. Tell tell us what your conclusion
Speaker 3: really is after all of this.
Speaker 6: Well, my own personal opinion is that it started with
Speaker 6: the police who knew they had made a mistake, and
Speaker 6: instead of instead of admitting they had made a mistake, they.
Speaker 3: Covered up for themselves.
Speaker 6: In fact, there was an investigation being done about them
Speaker 6: about how why they hadn't caught Charlie when he had
Speaker 6: the murder in December, and I think had I think
Speaker 6: that she was the key because she had given them
Speaker 6: so many warnings and as an innocent child, was just
Speaker 6: saying why didn't you catch this? Why didn't you catch that?
Speaker 6: And if she was not founded, they needed to discredit her.
Speaker 6: And because if they didn't discredit her, she could discredit them,
Speaker 6: and so I think they really went after her. And
Speaker 6: then once they had done that.
Speaker 3: Their word became became law.
Speaker 6: Well, I don't want to say law, but their word
Speaker 6: became the truth, and everybody just kind of believed them
Speaker 6: and took them at the word. And then it's just
Speaker 6: gotten into the national kind of vocabulary, if you will,
Speaker 6: in that the story just got out, and a lot
Speaker 6: of times people will just repeat a story without questioning, well,
Speaker 6: where does that come from, how do we know that,
Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera, And now people just repeat the
Speaker 6: story and they're repeating Charlie's testimony verbatim without realizing where
Speaker 6: the source was from that. And so now it's just
Speaker 6: gotten into the as my dad says, it's a it's
Speaker 6: legendary status, and it's gotten to the point where people
Speaker 6: are just repeating, well, you know, Carol was just guilty
Speaker 6: because of this and this and this and this and
Speaker 6: that sort of then wound up being what people believed
Speaker 6: and why they wanted to keep her in prison because
Speaker 6: they had they had grown to believe that she had
Speaker 6: done all these horrible things, all from stories that basically
Speaker 6: began with the police going we have to cover up
Speaker 6: for ourselves, so Charlie tell us what happened, and then
Speaker 6: we'll just report that it's the fact. And of course
Speaker 6: the papers and documentaries today which have no interest in
Speaker 6: finding out the truth. As a quick example, actually recently
Speaker 6: there was a thing on the Discovery Channel where they
Speaker 6: came and interviewed both my father and I for a
Speaker 6: documentary they were doing called bi Yeah, Women Killers or
Speaker 6: something like that anyway, and we gave them all the
Speaker 6: files of stuff, I mean, things that people would usually
Speaker 6: love to have, and then entire disc of the entire trial,
Speaker 6: files of information, not just from our point of view,
Speaker 6: but this. I was like, here, this is the actual
Speaker 6: original objective from the trial from the court. Go ahead
Speaker 6: and you know, do your investigations work. And then they
Speaker 6: just they didn't do any of that. They just went
Speaker 6: out and were like, oh, well, this was what happened,
Speaker 6: and they just repeated what Charlie had said and made
Speaker 6: up stuff themselves as well. So that's why I think
Speaker 6: that's that's what kept her in prison, and that's what
Speaker 6: kept people just repeating the story that they want to believe.
Speaker 3: And what's your personal opinion and feeling about Caroline Fugate period? What? Oh,
Speaker 3: how do you consider her? I consider her?
Speaker 6: You know, she's I've known her, you know, I mean
Speaker 6: I I've been in and out of contact for years.
Speaker 6: I haven't really had much contact over the last couple
Speaker 6: of decades, but very sweet person. The way that people
Speaker 6: have described her, I think is the way I would
Speaker 6: always describe her as very timid. She you know, Dinette
Speaker 6: Beaver put her like she would be the person who'd
Speaker 6: be afraid of.
Speaker 3: Her own shadow.
Speaker 6: And while I don't necessarily say she's afraid of her
Speaker 6: own shadow anymore, but she's she's a very kind of timid,
Speaker 6: quiet kind of person. And while I know that kind
Speaker 6: of person can be you know, those timid.
Speaker 3: People can be killers.
Speaker 6: At the same time, the specifics of what people said
Speaker 6: that she did, it's like, well, no, that's not the
Speaker 6: type of person.
Speaker 3: You know. That just doesn't go with her character. If
Speaker 3: for whatever reason she.
Speaker 6: Was a killer, she wouldn't have done the specific things
Speaker 6: that people have said that she had done. You would
Speaker 6: have just been, you know different. Essentially, I just.
Speaker 3: Come back get from this that she was a very
Speaker 3: strong woman, and the strength came from partially or not
Speaker 3: partially in for the most part, from your grandfather in
Speaker 3: terms of someone believing in her and really believing in her,
Speaker 3: because you got to think, unbelievably, a fourteen year old
Speaker 3: facing life in prison or the death penalty. The ex
Speaker 3: boyfriend who told to hit the road becomes your captor,
Speaker 3: your family is dead, You're the most reviled person in
Speaker 3: and out of prison. Very few people believed in her
Speaker 3: at all, and yet this woman stayed in prison, didn't
Speaker 3: have any infractions against her, and still looked with hope
Speaker 3: for the future better herself. And I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 3: you just make the case. But from all the inferences
Speaker 3: and all the evidence that I've seen is that she
Speaker 3: was a victim, an innocent woman. But yet the dignity
Speaker 3: that she had to acquire and that she did exude
Speaker 3: through this entire thing is that she is just an
Speaker 3: amazing character. I'm sure she doesn't need any accolades from
Speaker 3: me or from television or rewriting history. She just got
Speaker 3: on with her life. But very interesting, strong character. Certainly,
Speaker 3: that's a.
Speaker 6: You know, that's a really good point. I guess, you know,
Speaker 6: when I say timid, that's kind of a you know,
Speaker 6: the way I was saying is sort of a shallow
Speaker 6: way of looking at it, because yes, on the outside,
Speaker 6: certainly she looks very timid. But what she went through,
Speaker 6: you're absolutely right to have kept the faith that she did,
Speaker 6: and you know, she never got a single discliny write
Speaker 6: up at all in York prison, which was a record
Speaker 6: up to that point, nobody had ever done that before.
Speaker 3: In eighteen years.
Speaker 6: Or seventeen really of the years that she was actually
Speaker 6: in the prison, never got was written up for a
Speaker 6: single disclinary thing. Despite I mean, you know, imagine what
Speaker 6: she's going through, and she was going through her rebellious teens,
Speaker 6: but yet she never broke and she kept this faith
Speaker 6: for all these years. And you know, even now she's
Speaker 6: gone through tragedies. She actually was just in a car
Speaker 6: accident where her husband, she finally did get married after
Speaker 6: all these years, her husband and she's been in the hospital.
Speaker 6: And but you know, of course when wins Gate went
Speaker 6: out to news, rather than showing facts and everything, they
Speaker 6: started showing footage from natural born Killers and saying, yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, the influence for natural born killers was an
Speaker 6: accent and just all these rumors and you know, but
Speaker 6: yet she's you know, stayed strong and she you know,
Speaker 6: has continued to have her you know, strong character showing,
Speaker 6: and you know, there's a lot to be admired there.
Speaker 6: She's really a phenomenal woman.
Speaker 3: But like you say, in the in the introduction in
Speaker 3: the prologue that this really is most not about Charles Starkweather. Uh.
Speaker 3: It is about the American judicial system and you know,
Speaker 3: in the Nebraska judicial system and a little town called Lincoln. Uh.
Speaker 3: It's about Carol Ane Fugate and her battle. But it
Speaker 3: really is about the law and and really a reminder
Speaker 3: of what the law can do and what it should do,
Speaker 3: and what it is. And this is just a fascinating,
Speaker 3: fascinating murder trial and in a real slice of American
Speaker 3: true history. And it just happens to the I don't
Speaker 3: know true crime. This is just history to me and
Speaker 3: just a fascinating story. And I want to thank you
Speaker 3: very much Jeff for coming on and talking about it today.
Speaker 3: If obviously this book is available through Amazon, Barnes, and Noble,
Speaker 3: but tell us a little bit more how people might
Speaker 3: contact you, and if you've got a website or if
Speaker 3: they tell us give us a little bit more information
Speaker 3: about you and how people might get more information or
Speaker 3: get a personalized book or something like that to us. Sure, sure, yeah,
Speaker 3: you can go to the website at www dot pro
Speaker 3: bonobook dot com and it has all sorts of more
Speaker 3: information about the case. Then it's even in the book.
Speaker 6: Well, I should say, additional information to what's in the book, photograph,
Speaker 6: all that sort of thing, and you ordering information on there,
Speaker 6: you can write to me. You can also download the
Speaker 6: original transcriptor I had that first hundred pages, and then
Speaker 6: you can write to me and I can send you,
Speaker 6: you know, more of those.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: And my other books are on Bandwagon online dot com.
Speaker 6: And yeah, and of course, like you say, it's on Amazon,
Speaker 6: you can order the physical book, look at it on
Speaker 6: e readers, you know, and on there and Barnes and
Speaker 6: Noble and you know, basically all of the e readers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, great, Yeah, and then then it's it's just a
Speaker 3: really fantastic book and some great old photos as well
Speaker 3: that you've included. And yeah, very very interesting. And I
Speaker 3: want to thank you very much Jeff for this and
Speaker 3: hope to hear from you again real soon. I know
Speaker 3: you're working on another project. And so what what is
Speaker 3: that about.
Speaker 6: It's actually about the largest bank robbery in history. And
Speaker 6: in fact, actually you were saying about the politics. It's
Speaker 6: I was just thinking about this earlier when you were
Speaker 6: talking about the politics of County Attorney, because it's it
Speaker 6: goes more into that there was the guy before Shield
Speaker 6: was even more colorful and kind of ran link in
Speaker 6: the way Compone ran Chicago, And it really goes into
Speaker 6: the politics of how because he wound up again. It
Speaker 6: was one of the things of getting three people who
Speaker 6: weren't guilty. They weren't innocent because they actually were bank
Speaker 6: robbers of a completely different heights. But they rather than
Speaker 6: getting the bank robbers that actually had robbed their bank,
Speaker 6: they instead got these other people, which told did specifically
Speaker 6: because he wanted to be re elected as county attorney.
Speaker 3: So sure. So yeah, it really goes into more specifics.
Speaker 6: About the politics of all this sort of stuff. So
Speaker 6: then that would be any day now.
Speaker 3: Oh good. Well, well, we'll hope to hear from you
Speaker 3: again real soon. And best of luck with this. I
Speaker 3: know this came out in twenty twelve, didn't it, Yeah,
Speaker 3: last year. Yeah, it's so amazing. So yeah, well, thank
Speaker 3: you very much, Jeff, and you have a good evening,
Speaker 3: and I hope to hear from you again real soon.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan, Thank you very much. That's a good
Speaker 3: nik