1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:08,199 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, pack your bags because we are heading to Iceland. 2 00:00:08,599 --> 00:00:11,320 And when I say we, I don't just mean me 3 00:00:11,439 --> 00:00:14,800 and you, because Tooks and Shana from the research team 4 00:00:14,839 --> 00:00:18,160 are joining us on this magical Trova trip, and so 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,480 is the one and only Sydney Copp who helped identify 6 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:24,399 Christopher Roof. For as long as I can remember, Iceland 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,399 has been number one on my travel list and it 8 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:30,760 still somehow eluded me for all these years. So I'm 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,359 inviting you to come experience Iceland with me for the 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,679 very first time. We'll visit secret geothermal lagoons, waterfalls, geysers, 11 00:00:39,719 --> 00:00:43,840 the Continental Rift, and black sand beaches littered with icebergs. 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,399 We'll take a private boat tour, see the glaciers, see 13 00:00:47,439 --> 00:00:50,759 puffins and hang out and rekivic. It will be I'm 14 00:00:50,799 --> 00:00:55,200 sure a life changing six days. Tickets are on sale now, 15 00:00:55,479 --> 00:00:58,399 but act fast because as of today, there are only 16 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,759 four spots left, so reserve your spot asap. Check out 17 00:01:03,759 --> 00:01:06,840 the link in the show notes or on Instagram. I 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,040 cannot wait to see you in Iceland. 19 00:01:20,079 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 2: This is a. 20 00:01:20,719 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: Studio both and production. As we've negotiated israel Keys's ability 21 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,040 for love, it's been impossible to overlook the immense pain 22 00:01:38,159 --> 00:01:41,799 he brought to the world. I mean, it's the reason 23 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,519 we're all here. Can one be capable of love and 24 00:01:45,799 --> 00:01:49,799 love to inflict pain on others? It seems to me 25 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,640 that Keys had an almost adversarial relationship with the idea 26 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,040 of love, almost as though he wanted to hurt the 27 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,079 love that he never received. He read and possibly even 28 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,560 quoted articles covering his crimes and their impacts on missing 29 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,919 people's loved ones. He often specifically targeted couples. He talked 30 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,360 about the emotional pain those couples would endure. So our 31 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,960 investigation into Keys has been one of his crimes, but 32 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,919 also one of who he was and what drove him, 33 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,280 what compelled him, and what did his innermost workings make 34 00:02:25,439 --> 00:02:34,120 possible and or impossible. Our investigation into him is limitless. 35 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,639 It's taken us down bizarre rabbit holes into unexpected places. 36 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,360 Ours spent researching Farmville calls to small town librarians in 37 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,759 search of out of print publications, essentially living in newspaper archives, 38 00:02:50,879 --> 00:02:55,280 braving the elements to walk in Keys's footsteps, hoping to 39 00:02:55,319 --> 00:02:58,879 connect some pieces of the puzzle or rule something out. 40 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:03,919 And these pursuits are always driven by one goal to 41 00:03:04,039 --> 00:03:08,039 identify Keys's crimes and victims. Some more people can get 42 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,520 their names back and loved ones can finally receive answers. 43 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,159 And the more we know about Keys, not just his crimes, 44 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:22,000 but who he was, the more possible this becomes. Because 45 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,039 Keys admitted to taking both men and women of varying ages, 46 00:03:26,719 --> 00:03:30,479 his victimology is broad, making it that much more difficult 47 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:35,080 to identify potential victims. But one detail that comes up 48 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,960 over and over again that has helped focus our research 49 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,439 are his references to killing couples. Investigating potential pairs allows 50 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,280 us to narrow the field, to rule some cases out 51 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:53,039 and flag others for deeper investigation. In this episode will 52 00:03:53,039 --> 00:03:56,319 dive into updates on couples we've discussed in previous seasons, 53 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,919 as well as cases we're asked about frequently, plus and 54 00:04:01,159 --> 00:04:04,360 more importantly, unsolved cases that have been on our radar, 55 00:04:04,759 --> 00:04:11,520 along with crimes not yet discussed on the show. This 56 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,800 is True Crime Bullshit. The serialized investigation into Israel Keys 57 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,920 Season seven, Episode four, Couples. 58 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: Is there a struggle and you get them and they died? 59 00:04:26,079 --> 00:04:33,240 Or what did you need to killing that way? Trying 60 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:33,720 and kill him? 61 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:34,079 Speaker 3: I just. 62 00:04:35,759 --> 00:04:40,399 Speaker 2: So you can out of action. I read that in 63 00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:47,639 one of those letters with the male female, well a 64 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,399 couple in Washington State? Would you had female a couple? 65 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:56,000 I read that in are those the same couple from 66 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:57,920 that you took to the boat and come to the 67 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:03,279 light before their others and they went in that whole 68 00:05:04,759 --> 00:05:14,639 not from Yeah, yeah, you're arried. Yeah, that was a while. 69 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:20,319 Speaker 4: That was a long time, right after the got right 70 00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:23,560 after the military, right after the military, after you got 71 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:24,480 out of the military. 72 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 2: What was before I got the boat? 73 00:05:32,079 --> 00:05:33,759 Speaker 4: And you told this one time that you know, it 74 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,759 wasn't long when you got out of the military that. 75 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: You killed somebody. 76 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 4: And it was that sort of feeling that you needed 77 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,120 to do something. 78 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 2: You know, it was hard to resist. Do you have 79 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,040 any base of boarding time? 80 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,639 Speaker 1: Based on evidence and interviews with Keys, we know that 81 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,839 you murdered at least two different couples, the burs and 82 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,199 the male female couple in Washington State. Now there is 83 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,360 some uncertainty about whether the Washington State victims in total 84 00:06:10,399 --> 00:06:14,519 he discussed include two couples, a couple and then two 85 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:19,759 separate individuals, or a combination of both. Keys is very 86 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:25,120 careful with semantics when discussing these crimes so careful that 87 00:06:25,199 --> 00:06:28,680 even we have to determine what exactly Keys defines as 88 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:34,040 a couple. Additionally, Keys admitted to at least two other 89 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,399 occasions where he was actively seeking out a couple to take, 90 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,800 and at least one couple in addition to the couriers 91 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:46,120 appears on the name is forty five. As we've discussed, 92 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:50,160 Keys targeted couples not just to physically torture them, but 93 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:54,199 also to emotionally torture them. This falls in line with 94 00:06:54,319 --> 00:06:58,639 research into sexually violent offenders. Killing a pair ups the 95 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,839 ante on the suffering fear, harm and humiliation, which is 96 00:07:02,879 --> 00:07:07,920 what sexual sadists like Keyes experience pleasure from. Dennis Raider 97 00:07:07,959 --> 00:07:11,639 and Ted Bundy, two serial killers Keys talked about, often 98 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,439 also killed more than one victim at a time, with 99 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,240 Bundy telling author Stephen G. Mashad and later FBI special 100 00:07:19,279 --> 00:07:22,279 agent Bill Hagmire that the two women he abducted on 101 00:07:22,319 --> 00:07:25,519 the same day from Lake Samamish State Park, janisaw and 102 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,560 Denise Nasland, were alive together. He said he forced one 103 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:33,920 woman to watch as he murdered the other, highlighting his 104 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,680 thrill of domination. In the severe psychological torture he inflicted 105 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,279 on his victims. This is something Edmund Kemper did as 106 00:07:41,319 --> 00:07:45,399 well on at least two separate occasions, with Mary Anne 107 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:49,800 Pesh and Anita Lukessa and Rosalind Thorpe and Alice Low. 108 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:54,959 This topic is explored at length in FBI profiler Roy 109 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,600 Hazelwood's true crime book Dark Dreams, a book that we 110 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,839 know israel read and one that contains a number of 111 00:08:01,879 --> 00:08:06,480 shocking parallels to Keys, which will explore more in future episodes. 112 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:11,319 Among violent sexual offenders, often the only logic to their 113 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,319 crimes is internal, Hazelwood wrote, The criminal alone knows why 114 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,279 he commits his deviant acts. Although we can find patterns 115 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:22,519 and common elements among them, no two offenders ever commit 116 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,319 exactly the same sexual crime, and the world of dark minds, 117 00:08:26,439 --> 00:08:32,120 the darkness truly is infinite, Hazelwood adds later. Many offenders 118 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:36,360 are aroused by a victim's suffering sadists, while others are 119 00:08:36,399 --> 00:08:40,559 excited by their own pain masochists. Then there are sato 120 00:08:40,639 --> 00:08:45,120 masochists who may be aroused in either way, simultaneously or 121 00:08:45,159 --> 00:08:49,360 in separate incidents. Perhaps the most obvious and most frightening 122 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,000 explanation of all that is that some offenders commit sexual 123 00:08:53,039 --> 00:08:56,639 crimes simply because they want to, they like it, and 124 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:04,399 they have no regard for what the rest of society thinks. 125 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,879 Israel Keys admitted to abducting, torturing, and murdering Bill in 126 00:09:08,919 --> 00:09:12,080 The Rain Courier, and their images were found on his 127 00:09:12,159 --> 00:09:15,159 computer as part of the Name Is forty five. As 128 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,679 we've covered before, Keyes told detective Monique Dahl that he 129 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,799 considered taking both Samantha Koenig and her boyfriend Dwayne. In 130 00:09:23,799 --> 00:09:27,559 a December twenty twelve article from The Spokesman Review titled 131 00:09:27,919 --> 00:09:32,279 killer targeted victim's boyfriend, Dahl said, what we found when 132 00:09:32,279 --> 00:09:34,720 we interviewed mister Keyes was that he knew that the 133 00:09:34,759 --> 00:09:37,960 coffee Kiosk closed at eight p m. And he knew 134 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,120 that because Samantha didn't have a vehicle there, somebody was 135 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:43,360 going to come and pick her up. He was waiting 136 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,600 for her ride to come there because he intended to 137 00:09:45,639 --> 00:09:50,200 take that person as well. But who were the pairs 138 00:09:50,279 --> 00:09:56,399 killed by Keys? Were they spouses, family friends, strangers to 139 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,759 one another? Did they come on to his radar and 140 00:09:59,799 --> 00:10:04,600 adv dants or did he stumble upon them. As time passes, 141 00:10:04,639 --> 00:10:07,879 it sometimes feels like we're slipping further away from answering 142 00:10:07,879 --> 00:10:12,519 these questions, further from the possibility of identifying any additional 143 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:21,799 Key's victims. Memories fade, investigators retire, witnesses pass evidence is lost, 144 00:10:23,799 --> 00:10:30,320 but there's still hope. DNA technology continues to advance, new 145 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:37,399 witnesses emerge. Cold cases are solved all the time. Take, 146 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,200 for instance, to two thousand and four murders of Lindsay 147 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,840 Cutshaw and Jason Allen. The couple were found shot to 148 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:47,919 death on a California beach, and for a time many 149 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,080 speculated that Keys could have been responsible. It wasn't until 150 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,840 twenty seventeen, when Lindsay and Jason's actual killer murdered his 151 00:10:55,919 --> 00:10:59,159 own brother, that there was significant movement in the case. 152 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,080 There's also the April two thousand disappearance of Tennessee teenagers 153 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,559 Aaron Foster and Jeremy Bechtel. Their case often popped up 154 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,240 while searching for unsolved disappearances of pairs and cold cases 155 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,480 in Tennessee, where we have several names forty five cases. 156 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,679 In twenty twenty one, a YouTuber and volunteer civilian cold 157 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,799 case investigator named Jeremy Sides discovered Foster's submerged vehicle and 158 00:11:23,879 --> 00:11:28,320 the Calfkiller River. Bechtel's and Foster's remains were located inside, 159 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,840 and their deads were ruled accidental. And so while it 160 00:11:32,919 --> 00:11:35,720 often feels like time is an enemy in the keys case, 161 00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:40,559 that also brings clarity, which is exactly what happened recently 162 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,399 in regards to a Callville double murder we've been tracking 163 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:53,480 since the beginning of our investigation. The holidays sneak up fast, 164 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,240 but it's never too early to get your shopping done 165 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,799 and actually have fun with it. 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In the summer of nineteen ninety seven, Israel 199 00:14:00,519 --> 00:14:04,440 Keys was nineteen years old and living in Mappin, Oregon. However, 200 00:14:04,519 --> 00:14:07,879 according to multiple accounts, he was still frequenting the home 201 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,159 he grew up in on Rocky Creek Road in Calville, Washington. 202 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,240 This Calville farm was abandoned at the time, as the 203 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,399 Keys family prepared to sell it that September while living 204 00:14:17,399 --> 00:14:21,000 in Dufur, Oregon. But again, there are multiple accounts of 205 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,600 Keys traveling nearly four hundred miles to the abandoned property 206 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:28,639 on Aladdin Mountain during his time in Mappin. On June 207 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:32,000 twenty seventh of nineteen ninety seven, just twenty miles from 208 00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:35,639 the Rocky Creek Road compound, police responded to an arson 209 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,840 at the Panorama Mobile Home Park at five twenty three 210 00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:43,519 or in Rice Road in Calville. Inside, first responders discovered 211 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:46,799 the remains of twenty nine year old Marlene Emerson. Her 212 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:50,039 twelve year old daughter, Cassie was missing and presumed abducted. 213 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:54,879 Marlene's autopsy concluded that her cause of death was homicide. 214 00:14:56,159 --> 00:14:59,720 Exactly one month would pass before Cassie's body was discovered 215 00:14:59,759 --> 00:15:02,759 in Old Wooden area above orn Rice Road on July 216 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,720 twenty seventh of nineteen ninety seven, and her autopsy concluded 217 00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:11,279 that she died from homicidal violence. The double homicide in 218 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:14,759 Arson had long been on our radar. Not only was 219 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,120 Keys in close proximity to this unsolved case, but he 220 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:23,080 also discussed committing Arson to conceal his crimes, including specifically 221 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:24,720 referencing burning a trailer. 222 00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: How old were you when your first burns humped down? Well, 223 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:35,120 that's what you're counting it. I know. 224 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 4: The first thing I burned down was a trailer, So 225 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:41,360 I was about the same, maybe like fourteen fifteen. 226 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, pyromania. After years, it was. 227 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: Something you weren't supposed to burn down, like besides of 228 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:47,840 my eyebrows. 229 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:55,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, I know, I was. I started 230 00:15:55,559 --> 00:15:56,639 a forest fire once. 231 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: Over the years and behind the scenes, we've returned to 232 00:16:01,399 --> 00:16:05,679 the Emerson case over and over again, asking ourselves, could 233 00:16:05,679 --> 00:16:08,759 this have been Keyes's first murder? Is this where his 234 00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:14,480 affinity for pairs began? A repeated Foyer requests were denied, 235 00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:17,279 and there wasn't much new information to cover, That is 236 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,759 until early twenty twenty three, when Jordan from the research 237 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,399 team communicated with the lead detectives on the case and 238 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,600 they told him something surprising. They said that they could 239 00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:32,159 state with certainty that Israel Keys was not involved in 240 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,159 the Emerson's debts. Of course, with Keys growing up in Callville, 241 00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:40,919 the detectives were very aware of his case. They informed 242 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,519 Jordan that they had spoken with the FBI about other 243 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,440 cases within their jurisdiction to possibly link to Israel, and 244 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:52,559 were currently working to arrange a conversation about those other cases. Meanwhile, 245 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:58,080 we waited a year, then another, and then we learned 246 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,279 why investigators were so certain Keys had no involvement in 247 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:07,319 the Emerson case. In December of twenty twenty four, twenty 248 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,119 seven years after the double homicide, police announced that they 249 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,000 had charged a suspect with first degree murder for Cassie 250 00:17:14,039 --> 00:17:19,480 and Marlene's deads Charles Lloyd Tatum. Tatum is no stranger 251 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:22,559 to violence. In the nineteen seventies, he killed a man 252 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,799 who he claimed was trying to break into his truck, 253 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,559 and he served just a decade for that crime. By 254 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,960 nineteen ninety seven, he was in his late forties and 255 00:17:31,079 --> 00:17:35,640 living in Callville. In early interviews with police, Tatum said 256 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,440 he was completely intoxicated at the time and did not 257 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,880 remember where he was or what he did the night 258 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,799 of Marlene Emerson's murder. But Tatum's associates shared a different story, 259 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,599 noting that Tatum admitted to abducting an assaulting Cassie. It 260 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,519 took nearly thirty years before investigators garnered enough evidence to 261 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,680 charge Tatum, who is now in his seventies. That evidence 262 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,720 included Dud's eyewitness accounts and new DNA tests. Investigators even 263 00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:08,000 confirmed that blood found in the vehicle Tatum was allegedly 264 00:18:08,079 --> 00:18:12,119 driving at the time belonged to Cassie. His trial is 265 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,799 slated to begin in December of twenty twenty five. With 266 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,200 this development, Cassie's and Marlene's loved ones finally have some answers, 267 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,079 and we can answer one of countless questions we have 268 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:30,240 about keys. The Emersons were not israel Keys as victims. 269 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,000 Other pairs or couples we've covered at length on the 270 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,319 show include Cammie Vollendroff and Eugene Hyatt, along with Danielle 271 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:42,160 Imbau and Richard Patrone. The missing Philadelphia couple whose images 272 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,359 were found on Keys's computer. At this time, there is 273 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,359 nothing new to report regarding Cammi and Jean's disappearance, which 274 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,519 police originally attributed to a rogue wave. Since covering their case, however, 275 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,920 we've come to know Cammy's cousin, Shelley and her family 276 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,240 is still searching for an answers, and should we learn 277 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:06,960 of any new updates, we'll certainly share them. As for 278 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:10,559 Danielle and Richard, their standalone name is forty five episode 279 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:13,400 which delves deeper into their two thousand and five disappearance, 280 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,720 will be released later this season. Then there's an unsolved 281 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,839 double homicide that we get asked about a lot, and 282 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:23,640 for good reason. 283 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 2: You said the accuracy for a distance with this one, 284 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,759 you could actually get this one to be accurate for 285 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,799 a long distance. Yeah, yeah, how do you know that? 286 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:33,920 I mean, how could you test that? 287 00:19:35,519 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 5: Oh? 288 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 4: I shot it, I mean I should I probably. I 289 00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:40,680 took it up in their woods out and shee gash 290 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,359 and I had it. I had a whole target system 291 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:45,119 set up there. 292 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 2: I had. I got to give away my grand plan here, 293 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,440 but I had. 294 00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:56,599 Speaker 4: A moving target system to where I could trip the 295 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,240 target and it would start rolling downhill on a polly. 296 00:20:01,599 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: And it was just a piece of print or paper. 297 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 4: But then I would put a black mark like spray 298 00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:08,839 paint a black. 299 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: Mark about that big brain a point and that's what 300 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,000 that's what I was shooting at. Was it at about 301 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,440 fifty yards? You know? 302 00:20:21,759 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 4: That was uh, that was the plan I had. 303 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,279 Speaker 2: I didn't actually ended up ended up doing it that way. 304 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 4: Then that's one of the ways. I one of the 305 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,759 ideas I had or for carjacking, someone shoot out their 306 00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:41,440 tire while they were pulling up to a stop sign 307 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:49,359 or something, but didn't find any good roads or places 308 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:49,839 to do it. 309 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: So plus I didn't as as that sky. Kind of 310 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,720 had it in the back of my mind, but you know, 311 00:20:55,839 --> 00:20:57,720 I didn't turn it. It's pretty easy. 312 00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 6: People are pretty especial, so you get out in the backwoods, 313 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,640 people are pretty naive and don't really expect it to have, 314 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,960 you know, so you don't really have to do anything 315 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,039 as crazy as she got their tires. 316 00:21:12,039 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 2: But though that was one of the ideas I've i'd 317 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:24,559 had partly because if. 318 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,039 Speaker 4: You're on a road with the right amount of traffic, 319 00:21:24,079 --> 00:21:29,640 you can uh some set up in the right spot right, 320 00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:32,920 sit there with binoculars and kind of stick out who's 321 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:33,400 in the car. 322 00:21:35,599 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: I don't like shocking kind of thing on targets right. 323 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 4: Anyway, wouldn't have draw attention and the shooting at the 324 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:51,400 tires thing. 325 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:53,599 Speaker 2: I mean, they might not know who shot 'em out, 326 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,759 but what's the car. Well, let's. 327 00:21:59,799 --> 00:22:02,799 Speaker 4: Y in the evening and there's not a lot of 328 00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:06,799 people around us on a backwoods road that gets a 329 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:09,359 car every five or ten minutes. 330 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 2: You shoot out. 331 00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 4: Someone's tired. Someone's tired. She's by herself, and she doesn't 332 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,359 have much choice but to stop. If you shoot it 333 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,519 out with the twenty two and the side wall, it's 334 00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:27,599 she's gonna have to stop, probably within half a mile 335 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:28,799 of where you shoot it out. 336 00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: So that was yeah, but yeah, I don't know. I guess. 337 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,519 Speaker 4: That was part of the plan I had for for 338 00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:56,319 why I wanted There were other reasons why I. 339 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: Wanted to silence her. That was still accurate too. 340 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 4: I had actually had an ambush set up here in Anchorage, 341 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,519 and uh and that one got that one got really close, 342 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:12,759 I because. 343 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,799 Speaker 2: But then uh APD showed up. They they came out 344 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:21,000 to tell the people that, uh, the park was closed. 345 00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:25,039 Speaker 4: It was about ten or eleven o'clock at night, and uh, 346 00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:27,839 there's a young couple out there in their car and uh, 347 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,519 I had the parking lot that the. 348 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 2: Park sticked out. APD showed up and that yeah, coulda 349 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,880 got ugly, but fortunately for. 350 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 4: The cop guy, he uh his backup showed up. And 351 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,680 I mean APD is really good, like they're they're really good, 352 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,960 Like I'll buy the book and stuff. And that's about 353 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,839 the time that I decided to get a scanner, cause 354 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,720 I almost got myself into a lot of trouble on. 355 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: That one cause I had no way. I didn't know. 356 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,079 I didn't think that they would he would call him 357 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:02,839 back up just for some kids sitting. 358 00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 4: Out in the park, and uh almost pulled the trigger 359 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:10,119 even with him there, and that would have been I 360 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:16,240 would have got really ugly really fast. But yeah, anyway, well, 361 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:17,960 as soon as his backup showed up at the side 362 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,880 of to day, so did they better call it a night? 363 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,920 And I got back on my bike and took off it. 364 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,720 And that was was that Elderberry Park or where was that? 365 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 2: That was the one out out past the earthquake. 366 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 4: I rode along the coastal trail there there's uh the 367 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,839 last park on the line out on. 368 00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 2: The other other side of the airport there. I guess 369 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,319 it's still ment Uh Northern lights. You just follow Northern 370 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,559 Lights out as far as it goes. And there's a 371 00:24:50,599 --> 00:24:52,400 park out there on the right side of the lost 372 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,279 water side of it, on the water side of ye. Huh, 373 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,400 it's one coastal trailer runs right by it. Where'd that 374 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,079 parking lot at? Yeah, there's there's a parking lot. 375 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 4: And I mean all the parks out there are parking lots. 376 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:11,720 There's a there's a earthquake park, and that one I 377 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:15,960 had staked out of time or two, but it was, uh, 378 00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:18,039 there's always a lot of cars driving by that one, 379 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,640 and so I went further out. There's uh, there's two 380 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,960 more parks after that one, and uh, I was mostly 381 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,160 at the other two, the ones further out. 382 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 2: And it was that was right before I flew back east. 383 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:35,519 And I don't know why I was. 384 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:36,599 Speaker 3: I was just uh. 385 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 4: Itching for trouble, I guess because I knew I was 386 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:46,720 going back east, and I just uh yeah, And then 387 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,880 there was that one close call and then I I 388 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,000 it was kind of a spur of the moment thing 389 00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:55,720 because it just so happened that Uh, like Kimberly was 390 00:25:55,759 --> 00:25:58,079 out of town and my kid was gone for then 391 00:25:58,079 --> 00:25:59,960 I should staying with her aunt for a couple of days. 392 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: I just got the gun finished. It was just. 393 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:11,319 Speaker 4: Out looking for trouble and decided I was gonna try, 394 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,359 try and do it, Try. 395 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,079 Speaker 2: And do something here. 396 00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:18,519 Speaker 1: Have you been looking for a natural way to relieve 397 00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:22,359 aches and discomfort? The CBD gummies from corn bread hemp 398 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,400 are formulated to work with your body, not against it. 399 00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:28,279 Look it pains me to say this, but I am 400 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,200 in my mid forties now, and if I even sneeze 401 00:26:31,279 --> 00:26:33,519 too hard, I basically throw my back out. And I 402 00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:36,400 dream of nights where I'm blessed with even six hours 403 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,119 of sleep. 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Or just check the show notes 418 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,960 lying in wait, hunting and unsuspecting couple and shooting them 419 00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:46,319 from a distance. It's hard to listen to that clip 420 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,799 and not think of an unsolved double shooting in Washington State. 421 00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:55,240 And just days after Israel's suicide in December twenty twelve, 422 00:27:55,559 --> 00:27:58,880 the media asked those victims family what they thought about 423 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:04,960 Keys's potential involvement. I mean there were a couple of things. Obviously, 424 00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:07,640 he went to campgrounds, and he liked to go to 425 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,480 trailheads and look for people potential victims, David Stauden said 426 00:28:12,519 --> 00:28:17,359 in an interview with Fox thirteen. David's daughter, Susannah Stodden 427 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,480 and his wife Mary Cooper were murdered on July eleventh, 428 00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:23,519 two thousand and six, on a hiking trail in Mount 429 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:28,119 Baker Snowwalmie National Forest. In the interview with Fox thirteen, 430 00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:31,079 David added that learning about Keys gave him hope that 431 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,480 the murders would be solved, but also led to disappointment. 432 00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:38,200 I think eventually it will be solved, Stauden told Fox thirteen. 433 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,279 I kind of hope there's a trial, then more of 434 00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:44,799 the wise would be answered. In the same article, the 435 00:28:44,839 --> 00:28:48,359 Snowhomish County Sheriff's office said they didn't believe Keys was 436 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,960 involved in any murders in their county, including those of 437 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,200 Cooper and Stadden. Were not sure why they believe this, 438 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,039 and in fact have two potential victims who disappeared from 439 00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:04,599 Snowhomish County. I've covered the mother daughter duo shooting several 440 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,880 times over the years and have even discussed it on 441 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,440 other podcasts. There are a lot of peculiarities in this 442 00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:14,880 case related to Keys, A back and forth that oscillates 443 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,359 between the timeline is too tight for him to have 444 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,440 been involved, and maybe because the timeline is too tight 445 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,680 for him to have been involved simultaneously would rule Keys 446 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,960 out and rule him in based on what we know 447 00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:34,799 about his m O and our records from the FBI, 448 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,640 there are numerous financial transactions for Keys in Port Angelus, 449 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,599 Washington on the day of this double murder. Keys's cell 450 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,279 phone data also indicates that he received fifteen phone calls 451 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:48,599 on the day of the trail side murders, and these 452 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,039 calls place Israel or his phone at least in the 453 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,759 Nia Bay Port Angelis area. Curiously, however, there is a 454 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,920 three hour window from one forty eight pm to four 455 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:05,799 forty one pm where Keyes's phone went dark. Now, the 456 00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:09,640 Pinnacle Lake trailhead, near where Cooper and Stauden's bodies were found, 457 00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:12,720 is just under a four hour drive from Port Angelus, 458 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,559 but we also need to take into account the time 459 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,920 someone would need to hike up the trail, commit the murders, 460 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,920 and then flee the area. According to the FBI files, 461 00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:28,160 Keys is only unaccounted for for a few hours, making 462 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,680 his involvement extremely unlikely. But back in the maybe column 463 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:37,480 is the fact that Keyes often committed crimes around tight timelines, 464 00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:41,960 like murdering Samantha just hours before leaving for a family cruise. 465 00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:47,400 And does the FBI know with certainty that Keyes himself 466 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:51,400 made those Port Angelus transactions on July eleventh? Could they 467 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,440 have been made a day or so prior, with a 468 00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:57,319 delay in reporting by financial institutions. Could he have given 469 00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:01,119 his card to someone else to use whenever the FBI 470 00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:04,960 rules Keys out based on financial transactions. These are the 471 00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:09,319 questions we have to ask regarding the cell data. Did 472 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,880 Keys lend us phone to someone that day to establish 473 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:17,200 an alibi? There are a lot of what ifs. There's 474 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,599 also an unknown Hurtz rental car charge on July tenth, 475 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,400 two thousand and six, the day before the murders. This 476 00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:28,319 is something we've seen with other cases, notably Gary Sewan Bryant, 477 00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:31,759 whose bizarre disappearance will dive deeper into later this season. 478 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:36,440 Another factor that's made me lean away from Keys's involvement 479 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,960 in the Koperstadt In case in the past is the 480 00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:43,680 lack of an obvious sexual motive. But, as Hazelwood explores 481 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,480 in Dark Dreams, a sexual sadists preferences and behaviors are atypical, 482 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,440 which means in some scenarios, aspects of a crime that 483 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:55,920 might not appear sexual in nature very well could have 484 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:04,839 aroused the perpetrator. Like countless cases we've covered on the show, 485 00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:08,240 behind the scenes were always keeping our ears and eyes open. 486 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:12,960 Is there an update that warrants further investigation into Keys, or, 487 00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:16,000 as with the Emersons, is there a development that finally 488 00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:19,920 rules him out. Tooks from the research team has been 489 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:23,319 keeping tabs on the Cooperstatten case for years, and she 490 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:29,920 recently discovered two intriguing details relevant to Keys. A twenty 491 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,240 twenty four update on the case, featuring an interview with 492 00:32:33,319 --> 00:32:39,000 David Stadden mentioned that both women were found partially undressed. Now, 493 00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:42,240 while we'd heard accounts for years that the women were posed, 494 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,279 this was the first we'd learned of any undressing. This 495 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:49,400 detail seems more likely to indicate a sexual component to 496 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,799 the crime, though of course it could be a ploy 497 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,640 meant to give the appearance of a sexual element when 498 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:01,200 there was not one. Then this year, further media updates 499 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,319 revealed that investigators had recovered a partial mail DNA profile 500 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:11,240 from fingernail clippings taken during Susannah Stodden's autopsy. This sample 501 00:33:11,359 --> 00:33:15,519 wasn't discovered until twenty twenty as DNA testing capabilities have 502 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,839 continued to advance over time. Susannah's father, David, and her 503 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,920 boyfriend at the time of her death were eliminated as matches, 504 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,119 so The next obvious question is did investigators run Keys's 505 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:37,759 DNA against this sample. They did, but Keys wasn't a match. 506 00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:41,599 We've reached out to the lead detective to clarify some 507 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,279 follow up questions and are waiting to hear back, but 508 00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:50,799 it seems for now we can rule Keys out. By 509 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,359 tracking cases, we continue to glean important information from new 510 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,200 developments and details. In this instance, we have confirmation that 511 00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:03,839 within the last few years, investigators are comparing Keys's DNA 512 00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:08,199 to evidence and unsolved cases, and this is something we've 513 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:19,519 all hoped for. Exactly one year, in ten days before 514 00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:24,199 Mary Cooper and Susannah Stadden's murders, a chillingly similar crime 515 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,480 occurred about four hundred miles south in the Willamette National Forest, 516 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,440 and this double homicide is also still unsolved, and it's 517 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,159 another case we've been researching behind the scenes for years now. 518 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,079 Well liked educators Jeannette Bowman fifty six and Stephen Hougen 519 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:48,280 fifty four met while working in a Montana school. They 520 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,679 began dating in two thousand. Jeanette had two sons from 521 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,880 a previous marriage and Stephen had two daughters. They loved adventure, 522 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:02,239 the outdoors, and traveling. Eventually, the couple would leave Montana 523 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,280 for Washington State in around two thousand three. There, Stephen 524 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,440 subbed for the Ocean Beach School District in Long Beach, 525 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,400 while Jeanette taught business courses at Ilwaco High School. When 526 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,239 Stephen landed a job two hundred fifty miles away as 527 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,519 a guidance counselor and track coach at Westridge Middle School 528 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:24,239 in Oakridge, Oregon, Jeannette also made plans to relocate there. 529 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,079 Just weeks before they were murdered, Jeanette moved south to 530 00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:32,199 join Stephen. That fall, she was set to begin a 531 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,079 new position at Lane Community College and Eugene. The educators 532 00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:40,519 were enjoying their summer off, spending as much time outside 533 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:45,039 as possible, including fishing and golfing. They told family they 534 00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:48,000 were going on a three day fly fishing and camping trip, 535 00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:51,760 with Jeannette emailing a former colleague on June twenty eighth, 536 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,159 according to the Hindook Observer, to say, we got me 537 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,199 moved and settled in, so now we have some time 538 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,920 for fun this summer, going camping tomorrow. Hope your summer 539 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,920 is going great and you are able to relax a 540 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,599 little bit too. Jeannette. Police believe that on either Wednesday, 541 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,679 June twenty ninth or Thursday, June thirtieth, then days of 542 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,039 sending that email, that Stephen, Jeannette, and their chow golden 543 00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:20,880 retriever mixed Caesar, traveled about twenty five miles south from 544 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,320 their home to Staley Creek. There, they planned to set 545 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,519 up camp in a remote area within the expansive forest. 546 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,559 On Friday, July first, two thousand five, as people descended 547 00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:34,079 on the area to enjoy the Fourth of July weekend, 548 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,360 a camper hiking through the sand Prairie campground made a 549 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:43,599 grim discovery the bodies of Jeannette, Stephen, and Caesar. When 550 00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:48,320 the Lane County Sheriff's Office responded, Detective Sergeant Carl Wilkerson 551 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,480 described the crime scene to the media as something you 552 00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:55,880 would envision out of a horror movie. Police were quick 553 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,079 to rule out murder suicide and confirmed that the shooting 554 00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:02,920 was not exiit dental. The couple's autopsies indicated that both 555 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,440 had died from multiple gunshot wounds, according to the historian. 556 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,519 Authorities also conducted a net cropsy on Caesar, who was 557 00:37:11,639 --> 00:37:14,920 described as a big teddy bear. Police were hoping to 558 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,559 determine if the dog had bitten his assailant. No further 559 00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:23,320 details had been publicly released regarding those results at this point. However, 560 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,440 it's worth noting that this is around the same time 561 00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:30,800 when Kimberly noticed an injury resembling a bite on Keyes's hand, 562 00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:37,760 which she would eventually prescribe antibiotics for. Investigators combed the 563 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,079 forest for ten days by land, water, and air in 564 00:37:41,159 --> 00:37:47,239 search of clues. They found zero fingerprints, no connected tire tracks, 565 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,840 and zero useful footprints. Oddly, they also did not find 566 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,440 Jeannette and Stephen's campsite, and this was strange considering the 567 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,719 couple had planned a camp for three days. Similar to 568 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,960 the Cooper Stadding case, there were no obvious signs of 569 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,400 sexual assault, Jeanette and Stephen were found fully clothed, and 570 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,519 there was no evidence of a struggle. Authorities investigated the 571 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:19,079 surrounding forest for illegal operations, such as a meth lab 572 00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:22,519 or cannabis farm, thinking perhaps the couple was killed after 573 00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:26,880 they stumbled upon criminal activity, but this angle also yielded 574 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,360 zero results. This was an overkill situation. Sheriff's sergeant spent 575 00:38:32,559 --> 00:38:37,800 Slater told the National Register. These people were executed. We 576 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,119 think they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. 577 00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:44,480 They didn't stumble on to somebody. It's more likely that 578 00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:50,639 somebody stumbled onto them. Police interviewed each and every person 579 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,920 camping in the forest for the holiday that weekend, and 580 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:56,480 despite determining that the couple were killed with both a 581 00:38:56,559 --> 00:39:00,639 high powered hunting style rifle and a low powered firearm, 582 00:39:01,119 --> 00:39:05,639 not a single camper of the hundreds interviewed reported hearing 583 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:13,079 even a single gunshot. The ballistics evidence also suggested something peculiar. Jeanette, Stephen, 584 00:39:13,119 --> 00:39:16,719 and Caesar were shot from a distance, and then again 585 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,719 from a closer range of approximately five to seven feet. 586 00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:24,880 Sergeant Slater has said that there was either one shooter 587 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,400 who shot very quickly, or two shooters. Police have not 588 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,880 revealed the exact details on the weapons used. In two 589 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,639 thousand five, investigators struggled to determine a motive for the murders. 590 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:45,000 Stephen and Jeannette had no enemies or significant secrets, and 591 00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:49,480 according to all accounts, they were beloved educators, parents, and friends. 592 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,079 They were enjoying their budding romance and adventurous lifestyle. Their colleagues, students, 593 00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:59,199 and family members all spoke fondly of the pair. Dan Bowman, 594 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,639 Jeanette's oldi son, mentioned in an interview with TV news 595 00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:06,480 station KATU ABC two that his mother was also a 596 00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:11,199 doting grandmother. Kelly Hogan, Stephen's daughter, told Katu, this could 597 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,280 have happened to anybody. My dad and Jeanette just happened 598 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,239 to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. 599 00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:22,519 It's frightening. A search of Stephen's nineteen ninety four GMC Jimmy, 600 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,239 located about fifty feet from the couple's bodies, deepened the mystery. 601 00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:32,039 The vehicle was unlocked, and inside police found Hogan's wallet, 602 00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:37,079 camping equipment, and two cans of opened yet full soda. 603 00:40:37,639 --> 00:40:41,880 And reported missing from the vehicle were custom fishing rods, 604 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,840 a brown leather shoulder holster, a Smith and Wesson forty 605 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,880 one magnum revolver, and the Jimmy's front and back license plates, 606 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,880 which were Oregon plates c L four seven seven sixty 607 00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:00,559 three bearing the Crater Lake design detect hi of Sergeant 608 00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:04,559 Wilkerson has speculated that the perpetrator was a stranger. This 609 00:41:04,679 --> 00:41:07,880 is somebody who probably killed people not known to them 610 00:41:08,159 --> 00:41:12,840 and did it for killing's sake. He told Katu. The 611 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,519 FBI eventually got involved and informed local investigators that they 612 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:20,079 believed the stolen items were trophies. They also floated the 613 00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:25,280 possibility that a super hunter was responsible. According to interviews 614 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,679 with Katu, a super hunter is someone who moves into 615 00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:32,400 a national forest and then calls it their own. The 616 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,239 FBI has said they are territorial and can kill do 617 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,400 sometimes take a few items of the deceased as a token. 618 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,119 A two thousand and six episode of Sensing Murder titled 619 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,920 Hunted in the Forest includes details from the lead detectives 620 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,880 not reported elsewhere. In it, Sergeant Slater revealed that the 621 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,079 bodies were piled and appeared to have been placed together. 622 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,800 I haven't seen bodies splayed in any of the homicides 623 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,320 i've been to. I think that the arranging of the 624 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,760 bodies has a meaning, and I don't know if that's 625 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:10,519 for us or for them. This detail stands out. Jeanette, 626 00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:13,800 Stephen and Caesar were moved after the murders and posed, 627 00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:18,960 as were Cooper and Stauden, and after Mary and Susannah's 628 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,679 murders in two thousand and six, authorities did investigate if 629 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,519 the two double homicides were connected, but they could find 630 00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:31,719 no definitive link. In December twenty twelve, when news of 631 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,480 Keys of suicide and known crimes made headlines, the media 632 00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:38,679 started asking more questions, just as they did in the 633 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,400 Cooper Stauden murders. Could Israel Keys be responsible for this baffling, 634 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:48,000 chilling Oregon cold case? But it wasn't just the media 635 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:54,119 considering Keys as a potential suspect. In a December eight, 636 00:42:54,199 --> 00:42:58,440 twenty twelve article from Oregon Live titled Oregon double killing 637 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,760 from two thousand and five, examine meant for links to 638 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,119 serial killer Israel Keys, detective Sergeant Cliff Harold, who is 639 00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:08,840 now retired, had this to say about Keys's potential connection 640 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:12,599 to the Bauman Hogan murders. It fits in that time frame. 641 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,480 It's one of the more recent cold cases that we have. 642 00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:19,039 It's a double homicide. We'd love to have it solved. 643 00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:22,519 Harold said that his agency planned to talk to the 644 00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:26,039 lead FBI agents in the Keys investigation to compare notes. 645 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,400 We'll see if there's anything that they've learned in their 646 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,880 investigation that will link it to our open case. Harold said, 647 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,360 I don't know when we'll be able to have that 648 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:39,079 detailed conversation, but the Key's lead quickly fizzled out, with 649 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,280 no new details ever publicly revealed, But a twenty twenty 650 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,480 four interview with Stephen's daughter Kelly on the Culpable Case 651 00:43:46,519 --> 00:43:51,960 Review podcast provided further clarity. According to Kelly, investigators ruled 652 00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:54,840 Keys out by narrowing down the timeline of her father 653 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,360 and Jeannette's murders. They then compared these details to, in 654 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,119 Kelly's words, alibi. There was a part of me that 655 00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:04,519 wanted to believe he did it, to have this big 656 00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:07,719 question answered, But of course there's always that side that 657 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,519 is skeptical. Kelly told KTU in an interview. I've accepted 658 00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:17,599 that we may never know. Now it's unclear to me 659 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,559 where that information came from. Our timeline has no information 660 00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:25,840 placing Keys anywhere in the days surrounding the murders of 661 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,280 Bowman and Agen, So if the FBI did in fact 662 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,960 rule him out, we don't know what data they were 663 00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:35,719 using to do so, and how accurate or flawed that 664 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:40,599 data may be. On our timeline. Keys is last known 665 00:44:40,639 --> 00:44:44,599 whereabouts prior to the murders were June seventeenth, when he 666 00:44:44,679 --> 00:44:49,639 was boating, presumably alone, at an unspecified lake, and he 667 00:44:49,679 --> 00:44:53,039 can't be placed anywhere again until July thirtieth, when he 668 00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:56,440 and some friends took the boat out to Lake Ozette. 669 00:44:57,119 --> 00:45:00,719 But it's worth noting that Tony Luzio and Christina Hamilton 670 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,960 from the Name Is forty five disappeared on the fourth 671 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,800 and fifth that year, respectively, and that Gregory Siemens Brown, 672 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,480 the case we've discussed several times over the years and 673 00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:13,840 will deep dive later this season, disappeared from a trailhead 674 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:20,159 in Washington State on July fifth that year. Like the Couriers, 675 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,519 Jeannette and Stephen were a couple in their fifties seemingly 676 00:45:24,599 --> 00:45:27,400 killed at random in the middle of a summer night, 677 00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:31,599 and though they were murdered in Oregon, the pair had 678 00:45:31,639 --> 00:45:37,480 ties to Washington in close proximity to Keys. Hogan's substitute 679 00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:40,480 taught in Long Beach, Washington, which is an area that 680 00:45:40,559 --> 00:45:43,000 the FBI asked if Keys would have had a reason 681 00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:46,679 to visit in January two thousand four, at the same 682 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,679 time that the couple were living there. It's a city 683 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,880 known for its beach and boardwalk and located about five 684 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,599 hours south of Na Bay. It's also two hours south 685 00:45:56,639 --> 00:46:00,960 of Ocean Shores, another coastal town Keys visited with Tammy 686 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,840 in two thousand and one, just two months before the 687 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:09,119 disappearances of Cami and Jane. Additionally, when looking at the 688 00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:12,800 geography of the case, Keyes had family in Gresham, Oregon 689 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,360 at the time of Bowmen and Hogan's murders, with it 690 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,920 confirmed a visit to his sister there in December of 691 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,079 two thousand and five. Gresham is just under two hundred 692 00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:25,400 miles from Staley Creek. Keyes, as we know, had ties 693 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,639 to Moppin, Oregon, which is just over two hundred miles 694 00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:33,480 from Staley Creek. If Keyes did commit this crime, is 695 00:46:33,519 --> 00:46:36,199 it possible the pair had crossed paths with them prior, 696 00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:40,440 like we believe happened with Bill and Lorraine, had they 697 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:46,599 become targets prior to their murders. Eerily, there is a 698 00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:50,599 Crescent Lake within the Dushut's National Forest, about fifty miles 699 00:46:50,639 --> 00:46:55,360 from the Bowmen Hogan murders. Like Lake Crescent and Washington State, 700 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,559 where Keys confess to having dumped at least one victim, 701 00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:04,400 Oregon's Crescent Lake also allows boating, fishing, and camping. This 702 00:47:04,559 --> 00:47:07,679 is just another one of those curious details we've uncovered 703 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,599 in our research, like the street named Keys Place, not 704 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,159 far from where Cami and Gene vanished. Perhaps just a 705 00:47:15,199 --> 00:47:21,880 strange coincidence, perhaps something of significance or an easy detail 706 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:27,239 for Keys to remember. As far as financial records go, 707 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,760 in the summer of two thousand and five, Keys made 708 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,760 a one thousand dollars credit card payment on June twenty 709 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,239 fourth and a fifteen hundred dollars payment on July eighth, 710 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:41,000 a week after Jeanette and Stephen's bodies were discovered. As 711 00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:44,159 we've explored at length, large credit card payments are a 712 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,039 pattern that both we and the FBI have looked into 713 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,039 when trying to connect Keys to unsolved crimes, including bank 714 00:47:51,159 --> 00:47:57,119 robberies and arsons. This double homicide has baffled the police 715 00:47:57,199 --> 00:48:01,360 and the public for two decades. Law enforcement has seemingly 716 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:06,000 investigated every possible angle, including allowing psychics to review the 717 00:48:06,039 --> 00:48:10,679 case for reality TV. Yet there are still few answers. 718 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,280 But as we've seen with Cooper Stawden and even more 719 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,280 so with the Emersons, as time moves on, new details 720 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:23,280 often emerge or become public. In an April twenty twenty 721 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,480 five article from the Highway fifty eight Herald highlighting the 722 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,199 twentieth anniversary of Hogan and Bowman's murders and exploring Keys's 723 00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:34,960 potential link to them. We learned an important detail Tara Zeitner, 724 00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:38,199 who notes that she listens to true crime bullshit Hey. 725 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,400 Tara writes in the article that she spoke with cold 726 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,000 case investigators in twenty twenty three and again in twenty 727 00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:49,119 twenty five. According to what Detective Charles Tilby told Tara, 728 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,440 no one has been definitively ruled out yet, and that 729 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:58,199 includes Keys. Investigators are hopeful that advances in DNA technology 730 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,840 will allow them to test evidence from the crime scene 731 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,440 and develop new leads or a suspect, as in so 732 00:49:05,559 --> 00:49:08,079 many cases we've come to know during our research into 733 00:49:08,119 --> 00:49:12,280 Israel Keys. We'll continue to investigate this one, following up 734 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:19,719 until there are answers one way or another. Studio both 735 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,440 and is sponsored by Betterhelp. Well, it's that time of year. 736 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,079 It's staying dark later and getting dark earlier. People are 737 00:49:27,079 --> 00:49:30,119 going into hibernation mode. It's getting cold and the sun 738 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,840 has left us. This November, Better Help is encouraging everyone 739 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,119 to reach out, check in on friends, reconnect with loved ones. 740 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,840 Only the good ones and remind the people in your 741 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,039 life that you are there. Just as it can take 742 00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:44,639 a little courage to send that message or grab coffee 743 00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:46,800 with someone you haven't seen in a while. Reaching out 744 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,920 for therapy can feel difficult too, but I promise it's 745 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,920 worth it, and it almost always leaves people wondering why 746 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,400 didn't I do this sooner? For real, whenever I leave 747 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,840 a session with my Better Help therapist Jane, I feel 748 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,000 like there was so much law lost time when I 749 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,280 could have been in therapy before working on the things 750 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,760 that vexed and hindered me. I find it's much easier 751 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,000 to reach out and connect on these cold and haunting 752 00:50:08,119 --> 00:50:11,440 days when I'm feeling more confident and less weary, and 753 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,079 Better Help has paved that path for me, and seeing 754 00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:16,519 people I love or miss during this dark and frigid 755 00:50:16,559 --> 00:50:19,480 time makes it feel less oppressive and sad. So as 756 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,239 we head into the gloomy months, which sometimes feel like forever, 757 00:50:23,559 --> 00:50:25,719 consider reaching out to both the people who make you 758 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,280 happy and Better Help, who can make happiness feel a 759 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,920 whole lot easier. With over thirty thousand therapists, Better Help 760 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,880 is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having 761 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,360 served over five million people globally, and it works with 762 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,000 an average rating of four point nine out of five 763 00:50:43,119 --> 00:50:45,880 for a live session based on over one point seven 764 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,559 million client reviews this month. Don't wait to reach out, 765 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,840 whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out 766 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,039 to a therapist yourself. Better Help makes it easier to 767 00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:58,039 take that first step, and our listeners get ten percent 768 00:50:58,119 --> 00:51:02,440 off their first month. That Better Helped, slash TCB, That's 769 00:51:02,599 --> 00:51:07,800 Better h elp dot com, slash TCB, or just check 770 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:17,000 the show notes. A research into couples has included other 771 00:51:17,079 --> 00:51:22,079 cases worth noting here. Canadian couple Jonathan Jetta and Rachel Bagnell, 772 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,920 who vanished while hiking near Valentine Lake, British Columbia on 773 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,960 September fourth of twenty ten. According to our timeline, Keys 774 00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:32,760 was doing construction work and anchorage throughout the month of 775 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,920 September that year, and while it seems the most likely 776 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,920 scenario in this situation was a tragic hiking accident, there's 777 00:51:40,039 --> 00:51:45,199 limited information available to say for sure. There's also Melody 778 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,079 and Norman Kassan, an Alaskan couple I covered in season two, 779 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:53,599 episode six. The Cassans lived a subsistence lifestyle in a 780 00:51:53,639 --> 00:51:57,199 remote part of Alaska called Cordova. They were last seen 781 00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,599 on March six of two thousand and eight, but weren't 782 00:51:59,639 --> 00:52:03,039 reported missing until March twenty third, when relatives failed to 783 00:52:03,079 --> 00:52:06,599 reach Norman on his birthday. The couple had gone boating 784 00:52:06,639 --> 00:52:09,360 on their skiff, which is a small, flat bottomed boat 785 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,880 that can be powered by oars or a small sail, 786 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,840 on April third. Their skiff was located on a mud 787 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,360 flat in the Prince William Sound, which separates Cordova from 788 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,119 the Keen Eye Peninsula to the east and the Anchorage 789 00:52:21,119 --> 00:52:26,039 area to the northeast. Now, Cordova is not accessible by 790 00:52:26,119 --> 00:52:29,480 car from Anchorage, but is only a forty five minute 791 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,440 flight away. The Cassans are presumed to have drowned, yet 792 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,400 their bodies were never located. As you might recall, Keys 793 00:52:37,519 --> 00:52:39,639 was living in Anchorage at the time, and this was 794 00:52:39,679 --> 00:52:41,920 a few weeks before his dog sitter said that he 795 00:52:42,039 --> 00:52:45,679 was out of town. Again, there's such limited information here 796 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,880 and the most likely scenario appears to be a boating accident, 797 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,119 and of course a flight to such a remote area 798 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,559 would be incredibly high risk for Keys. But will continue 799 00:52:56,599 --> 00:52:58,840 to track this case to determine if there are any 800 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:07,079 new leads, and then finally the Ellensburg couple. This is 801 00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:10,559 a case Agent ted Halla mentioned to us. We scoured 802 00:53:10,599 --> 00:53:12,800 our sources to see if there was a missing couple 803 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,880 or unsolved double homicide near Ellensburg, Washington, and came up 804 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:23,840 with nothing. After further discussion, we learned that Agent Halla 805 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,239 meant he believes the murdered pair were buried near Ellensburg, 806 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,760 and that's why he refers to them as the Ellensburg couple. 807 00:53:33,159 --> 00:53:36,000 For the longest time, we couldn't find any cases that 808 00:53:36,079 --> 00:53:39,840 could even remotely line up with Keys's description of this couple, 809 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,320 let alone in the window the FBI believes this double 810 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,800 murder occurred. But we foiled every case that lined up 811 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,280 with that window, and we foyled every case of missing 812 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,000 couples in the Washington area in this time period, and 813 00:53:57,079 --> 00:54:02,320 still nothing. We met with somewhere in the Pines and 814 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,880 began exchanging notes on cases we've looked into and theories 815 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:10,960 we've had, and we started thinking about Keys and semantics, 816 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:17,559 and Keys and his favorite literature, and Keys and his 817 00:54:17,679 --> 00:54:20,960 predecessors that he claimed to not care nor know much about, 818 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:26,679 despite what later interviews would reveal, and all of these 819 00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:32,079 conversations and reevaluations brought us to a familiar and curious place, 820 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,000 a farmhouse in Hunter's Washington. 821 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:08,079 Speaker 5: King of your play ground, King of this great time, 822 00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,159 when your time is Upman, I found you on. 823 00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:14,239 Speaker 7: Your way there. 824 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,440 Speaker 1: Well, how does it feel to lie when you're home 825 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:20,599 and life and. 826 00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:31,800 Speaker 3: You find yourself feeling anything? Well, maybe you feel here then, 827 00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:34,639 because I. 828 00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:49,039 Speaker 5: Know you comfy here. 829 00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:50,639 Speaker 7: The don ad, because I know you comfy because you're 830 00:55:50,679 --> 00:55:52,880 confish heart. 831 00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:57,800 Speaker 1: This episode was written, researched, and produced by Michelle Tucker, 832 00:55:58,079 --> 00:56:01,760 with editing and post production by Josh Hallmark an additional 833 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,400 research by shaneo. Olenski and Jordan Taylor. Research resources included 834 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,239 Dark Dreams by Roy Hazelwood and Stephen G. Mashad, The 835 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:15,199 Spokesman Review, Justice Dot Gov, King five News, kat U News, 836 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:20,519 Oregon Live, The Chinook Observer, The Daily Historian, The culpabol Podcast, 837 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,960 and The Charlie Project. This episode is made possible by 838 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,159 the following Patreon producers, Amy Basel, Kendall, c Heather Horton, Wheedon, 839 00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:32,199 Sherry Dee Kirsten Hoffmandale Axton, Stephanie Taylor, Lydio Rodarte, Quayle 840 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,119 Drew Vipond, Emilia Hancock, Christina Sisson, Nicole and Dennis Henry, 841 00:56:36,199 --> 00:56:41,039 Gillian Natalelna Holiday, Rural, Juror, Tuesday Woodworth, zach Ignotowitz, Warren, 842 00:56:41,199 --> 00:56:47,480 Kathleen Studor and at L Ksey Jensen, Richardson, sc Benjamin Chopafon, Trista, Nicole, Ashfish, 843 00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:51,039 Becky C. Pink Gen J, Cory Deeley, Robin Carroll, Jordan, M, 844 00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:54,920 Kate Lucier, John Comery, Kathy Nation, Carrie, Jordan T, Bethany, 845 00:56:55,039 --> 00:56:58,719 Lauren Ferry, Emily Payne, Tory Meyer, Sabrina Abbott, Megan Inman, 846 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,239 Meghan Dagel, Ashley could Uplin, Michael Randall, du Wayne C 847 00:57:02,599 --> 00:57:06,000 Jen and Justin Runyon. Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's 848 00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:10,400 newest Patreon supporters, Susanne C. Kalina D, Carl D three E, 849 00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:13,880 S T, Stephanie S, Kaylee S, Rebecca S. Shelby D 850 00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:17,559 Paige B, Tara H, Courtney B Chrisa F, Susan N 851 00:57:17,719 --> 00:57:21,639 JSH Chrissy Corey F, Georgina V, Josh H not Me, 852 00:57:22,199 --> 00:57:27,039 Jessica J. Kristen, P. Craig H, Sarah M, k c H, Jason, Eli, 853 00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:30,840 Troy R. Brock h Dan d Jka and Brina s. 854 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,119 To support the investigation, go to Patreon, dot com, slash 855 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:40,519 Studio both and. This episode included music by Radical Face, 856 00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:46,360 Nine Moons, Aquertos A Tai, Argamon, Nocturne, and Sergei Cheramissinov, 857 00:57:46,599 --> 00:57:49,559 with featured music by Peter and Carrie. 858 00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:02,480 Speaker 2: H myself. 859 00:58:02,599 --> 00:58:04,000 Speaker 5: You'll not treat. 860 00:58:05,639 --> 00:58:06,639 Speaker 3: When you're cold. 861 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:09,679 Speaker 5: You cannot. 862 00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:19,039 Speaker 2: Budgets to say. 863 00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:37,760 Speaker 7: Maybe hear the sound of lading because I know you're confiding. 864 00:58:38,719 --> 00:58:39,800 Speaker 3: Hear the sound of la. 865 00:58:41,639 --> 00:58:43,039 Speaker 5: Because I know you county. 866 00:58:45,519 --> 00:59:03,920 Speaker 3: He can spake signs, flies, cast fake, fake smiles, see 867 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:05,920 a customize. 868 00:59:15,159 --> 00:59:21,519 Speaker 5: Where you gonna go? Where you gonna go when theo cho, 869 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:30,719 Where you're gonna go, Where are you gonna go, Where 870 00:59:30,719 --> 00:59:36,760 you're gonna go when the winner post child? Where are 871 00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:43,320 you gonna go, Where you're gonna go, Where you're gonna 872 00:59:43,679 --> 00:59:46,239 go when the money is dry. 873 00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:54,920 Speaker 3: Where you're gonna go, Where you're gonna go, Where you're 874 00:59:55,000 --> 01:00:27,079 gonna go when the money is trying? Think see son 875 01:00:27,679 --> 01:00:38,800 sec les stuff speak, thinking about thank you, say so 876 01:00:39,679 --> 01:00:39,719 s