WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:13.480 You're listening to an air wave media podcast, Monster House presents. 2 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:16.480 You're a man who is pure in heart and says 3 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:18.640 it's prayers by life may become a wolf. In the 4 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:22.160 wolf pain brooms and the auto moon is brightened. 5 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:26.399 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 6 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:30.079 A giant hairy creature. 7 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:35.039 Part eight party mat in Luckness, a twenty four mile 8 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:38.000 long bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland, if a 9 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:40.200 creature known as the Luckness Monster. 10 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:02.679 Moormster. 11 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:08.480 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 12 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:12.359 Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. Some recent werewolf related 13 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:14.799 news from Karen inspired me to return to my silver 14 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.799 Bullet research, which was in need of an update. After 15 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:20.640 today's discussion, I plan to stop talking about this and 16 00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:23.560 turn my research into something more tangible, which we'll explain 17 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:25.879 in this episode. And I think I figured out how 18 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:28.799 the silver bullet got embedded in Werewolf floor And it's 19 00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:31.560 been a wild and moonlit run through the forest of 20 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:42.439 folklore to get here. Momstert, it looks like another Monster 21 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:45.120 Talk where we're catching up people on our research and 22 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:46.319 projects and what we're up to. 23 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:50.439 Yeah, well, in this case, this is a really long term, 24 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.519 ongoing project for you, So I'm really interested in hearing 25 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:56.480 what you've got to say about this. 26 00:01:56.599 --> 00:01:58.519 So we're talking were wolves. 27 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:02.239 Yeah, people often asked me what's my favorite monster? And I, 28 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.040 even though we asked that question of our guests, I 29 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:07.959 always have a hard time with it. But where wolves 30 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:10.599 are my go to. They're the ones I keep coming 31 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:12.520 back to, and they I have my whole life. I've 32 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:16.280 always just been fascinated, whether it's the sort of the 33 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.879 jeckyle and hide or Incredible Hulk sort of version, or 34 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:24.439 whether it's the people deliberately seeking power through magical rituals, 35 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:30.199 the transformative power, you know, someone becoming animal, or you know, 36 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.719 there's so much metaphor in lore and folklore and history 37 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:36.759 and science sort of tied up with you there is 38 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:39.439 where wolves. It's very very, very very beloved topic. 39 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:42.680 Well, it's Matt's favorite monster as well, and it's certainly 40 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:45.919 high up there on the list of one of my 41 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:46.599 favorites too. 42 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:50.560 Yeah. So what got me thinking about my research again 43 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:52.199 was something that happened to you. Do you want to 44 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:53.520 talk about that? 45 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:54.159 That's right? 46 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:56.159 Yeah, So I don't know, I don't even know how 47 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.039 much I can say at this point, but because it's. 48 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:00.599 Still early stages. 49 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:05.479 But so I was contacted by a producer who is 50 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:09.560 working on a project. He worked with Oliver Stone for 51 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:14.960 about ten years on the jfk Assassination movie, and so 52 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.680 his current project is The Wolfman, not the original one, 53 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:22.199 but the twenty ten version. So this is an anniversary 54 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.680 Blu ray that they're putting together, and they're wanting to 55 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:30.240 interview the cast, and they also wanted a werewolf expert, 56 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.319 if there is one at all, to come on and 57 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:36.759 talk about were wolf culture and folklore and history. 58 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:38.400 So I just finished that interview. 59 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:40.879 We'll see what comes of it, but it's supposedly going 60 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.199 to come out later this year. But it got you 61 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:47.120 and I talking about all of these things. And I mean, 62 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.560 to me, you're the werewolf experts, certainly when it comes 63 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:54.120 to were wolves and silver, and I know you've been 64 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:57.599 doing research into this for some time because I thought, oh, 65 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:00.319 this goes back to the original Wolfman, as. 66 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.479 They talk about using silver. 67 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:04.960 It's the only thing that can kill a where wolf, 68 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:06.919 whether it's applied to. 69 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.199 The I guess to a blow to the head, or 70 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:12.439 it's to the heart or. 71 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:16.240 But killing the were wolf with silver, and it seems 72 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.079 like it's a lot more involved than that. That goes 73 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.000 back further and it's, i don't know, just a very 74 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:24.519 tangled and twisted tail. 75 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:28.079 It really is. And I think what originally got me 76 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.720 onto this was when we were doing the Beasts of Sheevadn, 77 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:35.680 which was sort of a series we covered. Oh yeah, 78 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:40.560 historian Jay Smith was talking about and he had not 79 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:43.839 really run into the whole silver bullet stuff. It's not 80 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:50.319 in the original contemporary lore from the seventeen hundreds, but 81 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:54.560 it does show up in subsequent documents as being mentioned 82 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.240 as something that people considered or tried or you know, 83 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.720 we're trying to use it because silver's very closely associated 84 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:06.199 with shape changing. But what I had found was it 85 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.920 wasn't that closely associated with wolves in particular. It was 86 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.600 mostly associated with witches. And so if you read a 87 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.920 lot of monster books, you'll see people say that most 88 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:20.000 of our silver and werewolf floor comes from the Wolfman 89 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:23.839 from forty one. And basically, I've just been spent a 90 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:27.120 lot of time running down whether that's true or not. 91 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:32.079 When does the silver bullet firmly become entrenched with werewolf 92 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:37.959 floor and Friend of the show Justin Mullis sent me 93 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:43.279 a link to a book called Werewolves, Bird Women, Tiger Men, 94 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:45.720 and Other Human Animals by Frank Hamil. 95 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:47.439 Yeah. 96 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:49.759 No, obviously this is something I needed to have in 97 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:55.240 my collection, so I appreciate it. But right in the intro, 98 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:00.199 Justin points out that there's specific mention of silver bullets 99 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:03.839 as being effective on shape changers, and he's absolutely right, 100 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:08.360 And so I decided to see if I could get 101 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:11.639 a little further down the who is it who's introducing 102 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:16.399 silver bullets and wolves specifically? And I think I'm closer 103 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:19.000 today than I ever have been in this whole search, 104 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.839 So I don't Unfortunately, I don't think there's a silver 105 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:28.519 bullet answer to this, but there's a strong, circumstantial case 106 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:30.680 which I put together. 107 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:31.600 I want to interject. 108 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:33.279 I just want to interject and say, I think it's 109 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:35.759 really interesting that you bring up witches, because there just 110 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:38.639 seems to be a lot of overlap between the history 111 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.600 of folklore of witches and that of where wolves are 112 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:45.439 even just thinking about things like the witch trials, the 113 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.879 witch hunts, and where wolf trials and hunts, so it 114 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:51.439 does seem like they are connected in some way. 115 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.079 And I was also thinking about the skin walkers. 116 00:06:55.399 --> 00:07:01.120 Yes, yeah, and that connection to witches were wolves as well, 117 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:04.120 But I don't know if there's a connection there with silver. 118 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:06.680 But I don't know where to begin. Where should we 119 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.439 start then talking about this topic? 120 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:13.319 Well, that's okay. So first of all, what I've been 121 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:18.600 doing is collecting my sort of bibliography into a spreadsheet, 122 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:20.839 which I've shared before. It's it's it's I'll put a 123 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:22.319 link in the show notes if you just want to 124 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:24.759 read it, because maybe you know other people in the 125 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:26.639 honest are interested in this and want to use this 126 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.920 as a jumping off point. Sure, but I basically went 127 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:34.120 back into thanks to Google scanning lots and lots of 128 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.759 books and other sort of things I was able to 129 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:41.160 and also using multiple languages, you know, through translation tools, 130 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:46.000 I was able to go back into. Yeah, quite so. French, 131 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.759 we don't know, you know, sort of like prehistory. We 132 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:53.199 know that, you know, there's the shamanic traditions of people 133 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:55.319 turning into animals, but we don't have like a lot 134 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.079 of written information about that. But sort of the earliest 135 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:03.800 stories we have about people changing into wolves come from mythology, 136 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:09.199 and the Greeks had the story of Lichen who offends 137 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.279 the gods and has turned into a wolf, and we 138 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:16.279 get licanthropy or like aanthropy or likeenthropes from that story. 139 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.000 And then if you go up into Roman times in 140 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:24.720 the Roman Empire, there's a really interesting story about a 141 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.120 man who is traveling with a companion and the companion 142 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.680 changes into a wolf. So it's very much a were 143 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:34.120 wolf story of about someone who has the ability to 144 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:34.559 do this. 145 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:37.639 And then yeah, you've also got me thinking when you 146 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:41.080 talk about Roman mythology about Romulus and Remus, yes, and 147 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:45.799 that wolf children, feral children, founding Rome, all that sort 148 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:46.240 of stuff. 149 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:49.440 Yeah, that idea of a founding fine, you know, and 150 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.279 having these sort of heroic quasi. You know, they're sort 151 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:55.960 of human, but they're sort of beyond human founding stories 152 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:00.000 that that demi gods Yep, exactly. So Romulus and Remus, 153 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:04.120 you know, famously are raised by a wolf and they're 154 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:09.200 the yeah exactly. Yeah. In fact, this is just local stuff. 155 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:12.279 I was actually born in Rome, Georgia, which is a 156 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:19.480 little city north of me now, uh yeah, and a 157 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.120 room there. And I think before World War two started, 158 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:27.679 when Mussolini was in charge in Italy. Uh, and some 159 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.120 people that this was shocking, but some people used to 160 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:34.559 really like, uh the effectiveness of fascists getting those trains 161 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:39.759 to around on time. Uh you know, so at least. Yeah, 162 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:46.519 And Mussolini established Rome, Georgia as being a sister city 163 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:51.279 and gifted the city with a statue, like a replica 164 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:56.639 statue of this famous wolf suckling the two children. And 165 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:01.960 it's still. 166 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:01.960 You're Italian and spirit. 167 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:04.240 Oh yeah, yeah. Well you know, Kathleen, my wife is 168 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:09.120 half Italian, so there you go, there you go. So 169 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:11.159 well see, in fact, I think, you know, if you 170 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.519 think about it, you get that Italian werewolf connection. And 171 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:18.279 then her other side is Latvian, which is I think 172 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:21.759 that's where the Werewolf of Livonia story comes from, which 173 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:25.120 is a really cool that's a really interesting story we've 174 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:28.919 talked about briefly where the werewolf basically descends into Hell 175 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:32.840 to punish centers, so it's like a superhero force for God, 176 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:35.960 which is an extremely funny story which we won't get 177 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:37.679 into here, but it's a very interesting. 178 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.480 So many variations that really highlight highlights just how. 179 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.159 Many stories are out there, and whether they're good wear 180 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.039 wolves or bad were wolves or good wolves bad wolves. 181 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:50.759 There's just so much more out there. It is really 182 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:51.519 mind boggling. 183 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:54.480 Well, and I think one of the things I struggle 184 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:59.559 with is I am really interested in how ideas get 185 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:02.759 trans admitted from one place to another, one person to another, 186 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:06.360 you know, and you can't always know, because it's very 187 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.200 rare that you get someone says, I'm a writer, and 188 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.000 so and so told me this story. I did a 189 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.000 little research here, and I combine them together to make 190 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.240 this new thing. That's not a thing people typically write 191 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.039 down in their journals, right, so I can kind of 192 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:24.000 piece it together. But I know that like in the pulps, 193 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:29.519 which were really sort of an emergent form of media 194 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:34.960 in the early twentieth century, they were cheaply printed, but 195 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:39.159 you get stuff like weird Tales and other sort of 196 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.399 newsprints pulpy magazines that published fiction. 197 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:47.080 And is that the same thing as like Penny dreadfuls. 198 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:51.399 There's similar it's a sort of similar quality the pulps. 199 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:57.639 Ultimately they sort of sit in between comic books and 200 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:04.159 news premira very they're entertaining and some of them are 201 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:08.440 quite influential. Maybe we should do some coverage with that, 202 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:10.279 a little deeper dive when I'm more prepared for it. 203 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.080 Yeah, that's totally yeah. 204 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:15.639 But out of that world you get like what we 205 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.480 think of his genre fiction. So you know, early sci fi, 206 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.320 early fantasy, horror, all those things emerged there because it 207 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.399 was a place where it was low cost, wasn't really 208 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:28.240 you know, risky market exactly, so people experimented, like the 209 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.159 publishers themselves experiment with lots of different types of fiction. 210 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.399 The editorial work was somewhat sketchy, so you'll famously get 211 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:38.840 writers being extraordinarily mad because the editors would just rewrite 212 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:43.759 their stories, you know, so oh yeah, frustrating different world. 213 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:47.039 But out of that that's where you get the publishing 214 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:53.320 of Roberty Howard, who writes Conan Brand Macmoor, call The Conqueror, 215 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.960 all these sort of heroic, you know, two fisted adventure things. 216 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.120 But he also writes a lot of horror stories. He 217 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.000 becomes friends and correspondence with HB. Lovecraft, and he wrote 218 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:08.039 a couple of werewolf stories that are pretty important, I think, 219 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:12.799 because they use the power of the full moon as 220 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:16.360 being an influential part of the transformation, and they use 221 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.440 the idea that werewolves could be a curse that's passed 222 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:23.519 on to someone that's not part of folklore very much. 223 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:27.559 It's something that he's adding himself, and I don't know. 224 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:29.720 I'm still looking to see what other authors may have 225 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:31.000 sort of explored this idea. 226 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.960 Yeah, I mean that sounds a little bit like the 227 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:39.679 Epic of Gilgamesh story with Ishtar. I mean you get 228 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:45.639 different names, different variations, but where she falls in love 229 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:50.200 with Gilgamesh and he finds out that she's cursed a 230 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:53.159 former lover turned him into a wolf, and a little 231 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:58.159 bit like the Greek story, the Acadian story with the 232 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.879 King Lakian A little bit like that, don't you think 233 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:03.879 the idea of a divine punishment or a curse. 234 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.480 I actually don't know that part of the story. So 235 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.360 this is new to me, and no inky do Gilgamesh 236 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:15.480 is her suit companion is a lot of people think 237 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.639 that's one of the one of the many hairy man 238 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:23.240 Harry Wildman type proto stories. So but I know he 239 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.240 falls in love with Istar, has a relationship there, but 240 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:29.360 I didn't know about the wolf thing. That's really interesting. Well, 241 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.039 I obviously need to refresh my familiarity with the Epic 242 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:34.639 of Gilgamesh and the part of the story that Karen's 243 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.879 talking about Ishtar asks Gilgamesh to be her lover, and 244 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.320 he refuses, citing times when she has become bored or 245 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.320 annoyed with previous lovers, sometimes turning them into animals, including 246 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:49.000 in one case, turning a peaceful shepherd into a wolf, 247 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:51.840 which leads to the shepherd being torn to pieces by 248 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.799 his own beloved hounds. So it's not surprising that despite 249 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.159 what an awesome girlfriend, a goddess might be capable of 250 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.799 being the risk or just too high for Gilgamesh's taste. 251 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.320 But his refusal of her offer leads to her begging 252 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:08.600 her father to send divine punishment onto Gilgamesh, and in 253 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:10.840 this case that's the gigantic bull of heaven. 254 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:14.120 Well, yeah, I think there's just so many variations out there. 255 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:19.600 And again, often these narratives are told just you know, 256 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.720 person to person stories a here on Facebook or YouTube 257 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:27.799 or hear around on the internet. So who knows how 258 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:29.799 much of this is accurate from the original. 259 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:35.600 Well, the manuscripts or inscriptions is probably a very different thing. 260 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.159 Yeah. Well it's interesting too because the so I think 261 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:43.360 of Gilgamesh as being an ancient story, but it was 262 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:47.279 lost for a long time, so it was preserved in 263 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:52.879 caneiform clay tablets, but people couldn't read canea form, so 264 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:57.120 you needed to have it to be rediscovered and to 265 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.919 be translated for that story to come back into play. 266 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:02.039 But that's sort of the I think maybe the reason. 267 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:05.240 I think that of all the technologies humanity has developed, 268 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:09.120 writing is the most significant and influential because it allows 269 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:11.120 the preservation of ideas. 270 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:16.000 Passed totally, I mean it you totally watching and language 271 00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:20.159 absolutely yeah, because people say the most important invention is 272 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:23.320 the wheel or fire, all this all that right, Absolutely, 273 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:28.440 language necessitates yeah, and these things necessitate language and writing. 274 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:33.039 Like written language in particular. It's it's look, there's a 275 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.399 perfect example that whole story was just gone from history, 276 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.440 and now we can find it, and then you not 277 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.639 only do you find the story, but when it's originally rediscovered, 278 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.759 they discovered that within that story is a story of 279 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.720 the flood that predates the Bible, which is really interesting. 280 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:55.480 And it's like it was so exciting and thrilling to 281 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.919 Victorian culture to have these discoveries being made. So I 282 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.279 find that really interesting, like very very interesting. 283 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:07.400 So again maybe we're getting off on a well we are, 284 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:09.240 we'll come back. 285 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.000 So one of the mysteries. Still remaining for me was 286 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:22.640 how did this silver bullet concepts get so firmly entrenched 287 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.519 with wolf floor. Now, even in nineteen forty one, when 288 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.119 you have the Wolfman movie, silver is the method by 289 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.839 which they kill the werewolf. But it's not a bullet. 290 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.240 Talbot's father beats him to death with a silver wolf cane, 291 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:40.480 like a cane with a silver wolf on the end 292 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.200 of it. And it's not until I think, well, even 293 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:46.680 when the forty three version there's a freakas I meets 294 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.440 the Wolfman. Then that's when they have the full moon 295 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:54.480 resurrect the Talbot as a wolf again because he but 296 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:57.960 that's a little iffy, But you know the movies. I 297 00:17:57.960 --> 00:17:59.799 guess My point is the movies have a big influence 298 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:02.480 on werewell floor, and then that feeds back into fiction. 299 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:07.000 But before this, this is what excited me about justin 300 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.640 Mollis's letter, was Okay, here's a book from nineteen fifteen. 301 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.839 This is clearly talking about silver and werewolves and witches. 302 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.599 But even it is not explicitly saying that they're the 303 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.559 same thing. But I wanted to know why it was 304 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.000 coming up in nineteen fifteen. 305 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:26.759 Well, it makes you think it's got to go back 306 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:27.440 further than. 307 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:31.960 That, exactly, exactly, and so I think that the culprit 308 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:38.759 is actually the Golden Bough. James George Fraser wrote The 309 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.359 Golden Bowel, but now he wrote it. Originally it was 310 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.200 a two volume set in eighteen ninety, and then he 311 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:51.160 experided on it and does a three volume version in 312 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.240 nineteen hundred, and then a twelve volume version that comes 313 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.319 out between nineteen oh six and nineteen fifteen. 314 00:18:57.880 --> 00:18:58.839 Twelve volume wit. 315 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.720 Yeah, yeah, And so it's in that longer twelve volume 316 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.759 version that in volume seven there's a whole section called 317 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:11.160 Balder the Beautiful talking about balder from the Norse. 318 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:12.920 Sounds like bold and the beautiful. 319 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:16.200 Oh doesn't it. It doesn't. Golly, I didn't make that connection, 320 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:21.160 but yeah, Balder the Beautiful, and in that yeah, maybe 321 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:26.559 they had. There's just story after a story about folkloric 322 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:31.000 transformation of creatures, and a bunch of stuff about werewolves 323 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:35.119 and witches. And again it doesn't explicitly say that they're 324 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.720 the same thing, but it puts them literally on the 325 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:41.000 same page or within a page of each other, of 326 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.000 stories of werewolves that are almost identical to the stories 327 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:46.680 of witches. So I think it would be incredibly easy 328 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.200 for someone to read that book and draw that conclusion, 329 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.359 even if Fraser himself never says these are the same 330 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:58.160 exact phenomenon, right and so, And it's not really clear. 331 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.480 I mean, he's collecting the folklore and a lot of 332 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.440 the folklorus were just repeating the stories, not speculating on 333 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.279 whether they were true or not. You know that exactly 334 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.240 sort of you himerius tendency to try to find the 335 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:12.880 real cause of this stuff that wasn't there. This is 336 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:18.039 just a huge, massive collection of folk tales, and Fraser 337 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.920 himself heavily references where he gets his stuff from. And 338 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.200 I found I put some links to previous material that 339 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:29.359 was being used by him that's coming out of Celtic folklore. 340 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.039 So there's a lot of this stuff going on, and 341 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:35.640 I think the connector there is Fraser. I think Fraser 342 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.119 is clearly putting it right there on the page that 343 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.839 you have werewolves in shape changing, and you have witches 344 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.640 in shape changing, and what's good for the goose is 345 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.240 good for the gander. Grab that silver right and have 346 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:48.559 some fun. I think that's what's really going on. 347 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.799 Well, I wonder have you dived into any mortoguse Summers 348 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.079 to see if he makes mention of. 349 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:56.599 Any of this. 350 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.799 Okay, So his book comes out in thirty three, and 351 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:07.119 it is an astonishing collection of folklore and uh legend 352 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:12.759 and thoughts. It's it's really a comprehensive book. If you're 353 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.400 going to study wherebeles, you have to have it. Uh. 354 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.680 And that's the werewolf and Lauren legend. But he annoys 355 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:20.960 me so much I can't talk about him without mentioning 356 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.960 that he constantly assumes we've all had a classical British education. 357 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.279 So we speak Greek and we speak Latin and we 358 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:33.359 don't need a translation to explain, so he'll just cut yeah, yes, 359 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.039 and uh and we I apparently like young men a 360 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:39.880 bit more than we ought to. Yeah, he's a Summers 361 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:43.599 is a problematic dude to get to be blunt. Uh 362 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:48.839 he is he is? He is. Yeah, but did his 363 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:53.440 books on vampires, the books on werewolf absolutely uh core material. 364 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:56.400 He did a tremendous job of collecting all that material 365 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.799 into one volume. So I'd like to get and I 366 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.359 haven't found one. There's some similar stuff and not quite 367 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:05.079 I'd like an annotated version that actually bothers to translate 368 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.480 all that stuff, and if nobody ever gets to it, 369 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.440 whenever the copyright expires, maybe I'll get to it because 370 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:12.279 I would really like that. It would be. 371 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:15.079 Really nice, fantastic idea, but that would be a hell 372 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:15.640 of a lot of work. 373 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:17.200 It would be a ton of work, but it would 374 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:22.440 be really useful. So I agree. Yeah, Okay, well enough 375 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.480 of that, But that's a funny. Year thirty three, you 376 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:28.759 get his book, and you also get The Werewolf of 377 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.440 Paris comes out the same year, and that book explicitly 378 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:36.559 talks about silver bullets and getting them blessed, and that 379 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.759 again is coming straight out of the folklore and is 380 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.480 mentioned by Fraser. But that's not how they kill the 381 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:42.440 world either. 382 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:46.920 So already established then at that point, by nineteen thirty three, 383 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.880 that generally accepted that. 384 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.559 Yeah, it does appear to be somewhere, right. You don't 385 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.240 see it in the folklore in the eighteen hundreds, but 386 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.640 by the nineteen hundreds it's starting to be backfilled. Which 387 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.559 is another problem. If you get modern retellings of the folklore, 388 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:09.720 they will frequently throw in stuff that's anachronistic, right, Like 389 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.519 that's what happens with Jaevadon. It's not until the eighteen hundreds, 390 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:17.440 people start inserting the silver bullet into the story, and 391 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:20.799 it's not until the twentieth century that they actually literally 392 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:23.440 make the claim that a silver bullet was used to 393 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:24.200 kill the wolf. 394 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:25.440 Right. 395 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:28.319 That was one of my big questions, and I've come 396 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.839 down pretty hard that that was John Keel's work. That 397 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:35.799 John Keel in nineteen seventy. It's not even supposed to 398 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.559 be a well researched part of the book. He just 399 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:40.920 throws out there that in the case of Jeva Don 400 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.119 a blessed silver bullet was used by Chastelle to to 401 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.720