Speaker 1: Welcome back everybody. Today, we're doing a deep dive on
Speaker 1: something that's honestly kind of creepy. No, root kits. We're
Speaker 1: going to really try to get into like how they work,
Speaker 1: why they're so dangerous, and if there's any hope of
Speaker 1: like detecting them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Our sources this time are excerpts from a from the
Speaker 1: book root Kits Subverting the Windows Colonel, written by Greg
Speaker 1: Hogland and James Butler.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, now these.
Speaker 1: Guys are the real deal. They actually teach a black
Speaker 1: hat course on this stuff.
Speaker 2: So oh wow.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so buckle up because we're about to get
Speaker 1: into some serious hacker secrets here.
Speaker 2: It's interesting you say the word creepy. Yeah, there's a
Speaker 2: line in the book that just stuck with me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It says the attacker is the master of his enemy's fate.
Speaker 1: Whoa.
Speaker 2: That's what's so unsettlingly about root kits. You know, they
Speaker 2: give attackers this power to operate in the shadows and
Speaker 2: control your system without you even knowing.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a little chilling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's back up.
Speaker 1: Okay, what exactly is a root cat? Okay, I mean,
Speaker 1: we all know it's bad news, but like, how does
Speaker 1: it actually work.
Speaker 2: So, at its core, a root kit is all about modification.
Speaker 2: It basically tricks the software on your computer into making
Speaker 2: bad decisions by changing code or data. So imagine you're
Speaker 2: driving down a road and all of a sudden, all
Speaker 2: the signs have been changed to point you in the
Speaker 2: wrong direction. Oh, that's kind of what a root kit
Speaker 2: does to your system. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's not just sneaking malware in, it's like
Speaker 1: manipulating what's already there exactly.
Speaker 2: And they can manipulate a lot. They can hide files,
Speaker 2: they can hide processes, network activity. They can even make
Speaker 2: like forensic analysis tools like the tools designed to catch
Speaker 2: them give false readings.
Speaker 1: Hold on, even the tools that are designed to catch
Speaker 1: them can be fooled.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's a little unnervous, making me nervous.
Speaker 1: And what makes root kits even more dangerous is that
Speaker 1: they're often used for long term intelligence gathering.
Speaker 2: So imagine like someone having access to everything you type, Yeah,
Speaker 2: every file you access for months or even years without
Speaker 2: you ever suspecting a thing. Oh gosh, that's the level
Speaker 2: of stealth we're talking about here.
Speaker 1: Okay, now I see why this is such a big deal.
Speaker 1: But how how do these attackers even get these rootkits
Speaker 1: on our systems in the first place.
Speaker 2: So think of your computer system like a fortress. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's got walls, guards, defenses, but attackers they only need
Speaker 2: to find one single week spot to get in. And
Speaker 2: these week spots are often like software exploits. Okay, and
Speaker 2: one of those is called a buffer overflow buffer overflows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds familiar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've probably heard that before.
Speaker 1: It is not like a coding error, it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a vulnerability that occurs in certain programming languages
Speaker 2: like C or C plus plus. And the scary part is,
Speaker 2: even if a vulnerability is known, yeah, and a patch
Speaker 2: is available, it often takes a long time for like
Speaker 2: everyone to update their systems, So these exploits, they can
Speaker 2: remain a threat for quite a while. Yeah, and that
Speaker 2: gives attackers plenty of opportunity.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, they're just kind of like waiting for us
Speaker 1: to slip up in a wait.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's this thing called a silently patched bug.
Speaker 1: A silently patched.
Speaker 2: Bug, Yeah, imagine a flaw being fixed without any public announcement.
Speaker 2: So even like security experts might not know about it. Whoa,
Speaker 2: and that leaves systems vulnerable.
Speaker 1: So vulnerabilities can be fixed without anybody knowing. That seems counterintuitive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if we don't know about a flaw, how are we
Speaker 1: supposed to protect ourselves from it.
Speaker 2: It's a tricky balance.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sometimes, like revealing a vulnerability can make it easier for
Speaker 2: attackers to exploit it before a patch is widely deployed,
Speaker 2: so it's like a race against time.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm starting to see the complexities here. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: let's shift gears a bit. Okay, how do these root
Speaker 1: kits manage to stay hidden once the inside? How do
Speaker 1: they avoid detection?
Speaker 2: So to understand that, you got to talk about rings rings. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in computer architecture, you could picture it like a hierarchy
Speaker 2: of access. So like ring zero is the most privileged level.
Speaker 2: It's called the kernel level. That's where the operating system
Speaker 2: has ultimate control. Gotcha, And that's where rootkits aim to operate.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, above most security tools.
Speaker 1: So they're trying to get like top secret clearance.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Basically they're trying to get the highest level of clearance. Yeah,
Speaker 2: which makes them almost invisible and really difficult to remove.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, from.
Speaker 2: Ring zero, they can manipulate the Windows kernel in very
Speaker 2: sophisticated ways. Okay, they're two main techniques we got to
Speaker 2: talk about, Okay, hooking and DKO.
Speaker 1: Hooking and DKO DKO Okay, those sound like they're out
Speaker 1: of a spy movie. Yeah right, yeah, break it down
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 2: So imagine intercepting a phone call, okay, listening in on
Speaker 2: the conversation and potentially even altering what's being said. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: that's essentially what hooking does. It allows a root kit
Speaker 2: to intercept system calls. Those are those requests that are
Speaker 2: made to the operating system, so it can filter information,
Speaker 2: redirect actions, basically control what the system's doing. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's incredibly sneaky.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. What about DECO, So DECOM stands for
Speaker 2: direct kernel object manipulation.
Speaker 1: Geez.
Speaker 2: It's about going behind the scenes, changing the script. The
Speaker 2: Windows kernel uses these data structures called objects to manage
Speaker 2: things like okay, processes, drivers, and other resources.
Speaker 1: So these objects are like blueprints for the operating system.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it, Okay. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: DKOM allows root kits to directly modify these kernel objects,
Speaker 2: essentially like rewriting the blueprint, so they can hide processes
Speaker 2: from the task manager. They can elevate their own privileges
Speaker 2: or even falsify information that's recorded in event logs.
Speaker 1: So with DKOM, they're not just spying on the system,
Speaker 1: they're like changing it at a fundamental level, covering their
Speaker 1: tracks actively and making it look like nothing suspicious ever happen. Right,
Speaker 1: that's just mind blowing.
Speaker 2: It's definitely a testament to the ingenuity, albeit malicious, of
Speaker 2: these rootkit developers. Yeah, and we've only just scratched the
Speaker 2: surface here. Oh no, there are even more sophisticated techniques,
Speaker 2: okay that they use, and we'll delve into those next.
Speaker 1: All right, my mind is officially blown. DKOM hooking, manipulating
Speaker 1: kernel objects like these root kits are playing puppet master
Speaker 1: with our entile system.
Speaker 2: It is pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: But you mentioned that there are even more techniques, and
Speaker 1: I have to admit I'm both terrified and like morbidly
Speaker 1: curious to hear more. What else do they have up
Speaker 1: their sleeves?
Speaker 2: So remember how we talked about root kits potentially disguising
Speaker 2: themselves as legitimate drivers, right right, that's a technique called
Speaker 2: layered drivers.
Speaker 1: Layered drivers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so imagine a root kitkay, masquerading as like a
Speaker 2: harmless driver, hm, like one that controls your keyboard. It
Speaker 2: sits there silently recording every single keystroke you make.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, so it's like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: It looks totally innocent, but it's secretly carrying out malicious
Speaker 1: activities exactly.
Speaker 2: And these layered drivers can intercept all sorts of requests,
Speaker 2: not just keystrokes. Wow, they can capture sensitive data, oh,
Speaker 2: manipulate network traffic, even control other devices connected to your system.
Speaker 1: It's amazing how they can twist something that's supposed to
Speaker 1: be helpful, like a driver, and into something so malicious
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, but you also mentioned that some root
Speaker 1: kits can even manipulate the hardware itself. That sounds almost impossible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not as common as software based attacks, okay,
Speaker 2: but skilled attackers can take advantage of vulnerabilities in the
Speaker 2: hardware or the firmware. Remember how we talked about the BIOS.
Speaker 1: Right basic input output system.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that controls the hardware during the boot process. Well,
Speaker 2: imagine a root kit infecting the BIOS itself. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: it could execute malicious code before the operating system even starts, jeez,
Speaker 2: give it complete control over the system. Wow, and make
Speaker 2: it incredibly difficult to detect or remove.
Speaker 1: Hold on you're saying, even if you completely wipe your
Speaker 1: hard drive right and reinstall your operating system like from scratch,
Speaker 1: the root kit could still be there potentially. Yeah, hiding
Speaker 1: in the bios.
Speaker 2: That's the scary part. Oh my gosh, it's like a
Speaker 2: virus that infected like the foundation of your house. Wow.
Speaker 2: And even less common, but equally troubling are attacks that
Speaker 2: exploit like the physical quirks of the hardware itself.
Speaker 1: Physical quirks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, think of it like finding a secret compartment in
Speaker 2: a piece of furniture. They can hide data or code
Speaker 2: in a physical location within the hardware. Wow, making it
Speaker 2: practically invisible to like software based secure tools.
Speaker 1: Okay, now I'm officially creeped out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty well.
Speaker 1: It's like they're finding ways to hide in the shadows,
Speaker 1: places we don't even know to look exactly. But let's
Speaker 1: shift gears for a second and talk about those covert
Speaker 1: channels you mentioned earlier. You compared it to stiganography hiding
Speaker 1: a message in plane sight. Can you give me some
Speaker 1: concrete examples of how these covert channels work certainly.
Speaker 2: So imagine a company that has a strict firewall that
Speaker 2: blocks all out going traffic except for DNS requests. Okay,
Speaker 2: those requests your computer makes to translate domain names into
Speaker 2: IP addresses.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the firewalls like a security guard exactly, only
Speaker 1: letting certain traffic through the gate.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Now, a root kit could manipulate those dnt's requests
Speaker 2: to sneak data out of the network.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: It could embed hidden information within the domain names being requested.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, or like subtly alter the timing of those
Speaker 2: requests to encode.
Speaker 1: So they're hijacking legitimate traffic. This smuggle data out right
Speaker 1: under the firewalls. Nose.
Speaker 2: That's one way to do it. Yeah. Because DNS traffic
Speaker 2: is typically allowed through firewalls, it can be an effective
Speaker 2: way to bypass those security measures. Wow.
Speaker 1: That's both incredibly clever and incredibly unsettling.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: Are there any other covert channel tricks they use?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there are many. They can manipulate the timing
Speaker 2: of network packets, So imagine subtly delaying or speeding up
Speaker 2: the transmission of packets to encode data. Wow, it's kind
Speaker 2: of like setting a secret message in morse code using
Speaker 2: the timing of those packets.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating how they can twist these like mundane technical
Speaker 1: details it is, into tools for covert communication.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like they're speaking a secret language. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: hidden within the normal flow of data.
Speaker 1: And that's what makes covert channels so difficult to detect exactly.
Speaker 2: They're designed to blend in to look like network activity.
Speaker 1: Okay, I have to admit I'm starting to feel a
Speaker 1: little overwhelmed by all of this. It's like we're dealing
Speaker 1: with a phantom enemy, you know, constantly shifting, hiding, operating
Speaker 1: in ways we can barely comprehend. Is there any hope
Speaker 1: of detecting these things? Or are we just fighting a
Speaker 1: losing battle. I don't know about you, but after all
Speaker 1: that talk about you know, yeah, secret compartments and morse
Speaker 1: code hidden in you know, network packets, I'm ready for
Speaker 1: some good news.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Is there any way to fight back against these phantom
Speaker 1: root kits or are we doomed to live in a
Speaker 1: world where, like our computers are secretly controlled by unseen forces.
Speaker 2: It's not a hopeless situation, Okay, though I understand why
Speaker 2: you might feel that way. Think of it like this. Okay,
Speaker 2: we may not be able to see the wind, but
Speaker 2: we can see the effects it has. Same with rude kits,
Speaker 2: even if they're invisible, they leave traces, okay, and we've
Speaker 2: gotten pretty good at spawting thes.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what kind of traces are we talking about here?
Speaker 2: So one powerful technique is called integrity checking.
Speaker 1: Integrity checking, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: Imagine taking a snapshot of your system when you know
Speaker 2: it's clean, according like key files, configurations, even the structure
Speaker 2: of those critical data structures we talked about. Okay, Then
Speaker 2: later you compare the current state of your system to
Speaker 2: that pristine snapshot.
Speaker 1: So any unexpected changes could be like a red flag, exact,
Speaker 1: a sign that a rootkit might have like snuck in
Speaker 1: and tampered with something exactly.
Speaker 2: And the tools for doing this are getting incredibly sophisticated.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: They can detect even the tiniest modification, Okay, whether it's
Speaker 2: a file being added, a ridgetry key being changed, or
Speaker 2: even a single bit flipped in memory.
Speaker 1: That's pretty impressive. Yeah, but I'm guessing these root kits
Speaker 1: are designed to be like super stealthy, right, are there
Speaker 1: ways that they can like bypass these integrity checks.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So a sophisticated root kit, yeah, might try to
Speaker 2: tamper with the snapshot itself ouck, or find clever ways
Speaker 2: to like mask its modifications. It's a constant cat and
Speaker 2: mouse game, of course. But we're not limited to just
Speaker 2: looking at static snapshots. There's another powerful technique called behavioral analysis.
Speaker 1: Behavioral analysis, okay, so instead of looking for specific changes,
Speaker 1: we're looking at how the system is acting.
Speaker 2: That's the gist of it, Okay, Yeah, imagine observing someone's
Speaker 2: behavior to see if they're acting suspiciously. In the context
Speaker 2: of rootkits, we're looking for unusual patterns of activity, like
Speaker 2: unexpected network connections, processes hogging resources, or files being accessed
Speaker 2: at odd times.
Speaker 1: So if a program starts acting strange, it could be
Speaker 1: a sign that, like a root kit is pulling the
Speaker 1: strings exactly.
Speaker 2: And we have these amazing behavioral analysis tools that can
Speaker 2: learn what's normal for a system and then flag anything
Speaker 2: that deviates from that baseline.
Speaker 1: So it's like having a digital detective constantly watching for
Speaker 1: suspicious activity.
Speaker 2: I like that analogy. Yeah, of course, a really clever
Speaker 2: root kit might try to mimic normal behavior or operate
Speaker 2: so subtly that it doesn't trigger any alarms. That's why
Speaker 2: we can't rely on any single technique.
Speaker 1: You keep mentioning this cat and mouse game. It feels
Speaker 1: a bit daunting, to be honest. Are we just constantly
Speaker 1: reacting to whatever new trick the attackers come up with.
Speaker 2: Well, there's always that element of reaction, but we're also
Speaker 2: getting much better at proactive defense. One of the most
Speaker 2: important things is keeping your systems up to date, patching
Speaker 2: those vulnerabilities before attackers can exploit them.
Speaker 1: Right, patching, but it seems like there's always a new update,
Speaker 1: a new patch to install. Is it really worth the effort?
Speaker 2: It's absolutely crucial. Think of it like locking your doors
Speaker 2: and windows. Sure it's a bit of a chore, but
Speaker 2: it makes it much harder for someone to break in. Okay,
Speaker 2: And it's not just the operating system. You need to
Speaker 2: keep all your applications plug in yea, browser, extensions, everything
Speaker 2: up to date. Oh gosh, they can all be potential
Speaker 2: entry points for attackers.
Speaker 1: So patching is like building a strong foundation so that
Speaker 1: those rootkits can't even get a foothold in the first place. Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: What else can we do.
Speaker 2: Another essential layer is having strong security software okay, particularly
Speaker 2: endpoint detection and response solutions okay or EDRs.
Speaker 1: EDRs.
Speaker 2: These go beyond traditional antivirus okay. They monitor your system
Speaker 2: in real time and use that behavioral analysis we talked
Speaker 2: about to spot and block malicious activity.
Speaker 1: So it's like having a security system with motion sensors
Speaker 1: and alarms constantly on the lookout or anything suspicious.
Speaker 2: And a good EDR can also help you remediate an attack. Okay,
Speaker 2: So like isolating infected systems, cleaning up the malware, yeah,
Speaker 2: and getting things back to a secure state.
Speaker 1: That's good to hear. Yeah, so we've got patching security software.
Speaker 1: Is there anything else we can do to protect ourselves?
Speaker 1: Or are those kind of the main pillars of defense?
Speaker 2: There is one, and it might be the most important
Speaker 2: of all, user education.
Speaker 1: Oh right.
Speaker 2: Many root can infections start with social engineering tricks like
Speaker 2: phishing emails, malicious links, downloads from shady websites. We need
Speaker 2: to be smarter about what we click on and where
Speaker 2: we download things from.
Speaker 1: So it's not just about technology, it's about being aware,
Speaker 1: being cautious, not falling.
Speaker 2: For those tricks exactly. Educate yourself and your team about
Speaker 2: common attack vectors and always be skeptical. If something seems
Speaker 2: too good to be true, it probably is.
Speaker 1: This has been an incredible journey, to say the least,
Speaker 1: it has.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Root kits are terrifying. Yeah, but now I feel like
Speaker 1: I have a better understanding of the threat and what
Speaker 1: we can do to fight back.
Speaker 2: Good. I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. Remember, it's an
Speaker 2: ongoing challenge. The cybersecurity landscape is constantly changing. But by
Speaker 2: staying informed, yeah, keeping our defenses strong, and never letting
Speaker 2: our guard down, we can stay ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1: Well said. Yeah, and to all of our listeners out there,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us on this deep dive into the
Speaker 1: world of root kits.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Everybody, Stay safe, stay vigilant, and keep those systems patched.