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Speaker 2: Andy Edwards, Welcome back to the Jay Burdens Show. How

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you doing man, good?

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: I am genuinely stoked to have you back. On our

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first conversation went super well, Like genuinely I had a

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ton of fun talking to you, and so I was

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already excited to read your book and then I read

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it and genuinely, man, I've never read anything like this book.

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Super special. This is going to spoil the review, but

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just buy the book. It's really good. It seems to

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be doing quite well because it is genuinely a piece

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of art, Like there's a lot said in this and

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to have one of our guys produce something that is

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genuinely just awesome. It's really exciting. So I'm not trying

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to fluff you up too much, man, but my listeners

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will know I'm not normally this enthusiastic. But this thing's great.

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So let's just jump into it. Man, if you could

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just briefly, what is your book, Crowbar about?

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Speaker 3: Well, at the level of kind of the topical level,

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it's the action follows two Rhodesian mercenaries who are I

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was talking to a guy the other day who characterized

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them as sort of like your action buddy duo, you know,

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Mel Gibson. I mean, it's not based on these, but

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there is this quality to it. And essentially they get

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they get you know, they come to the States and

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they get roped quick into into something like off reservation,

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you know, real dark, black ops. And it's it's set

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in nineteen eighty two, so this is the era of cocaine.

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You know, real serious financial shenanigans, not that they haven't

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been ongoing at that point, but they get kind of

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overt and then at a certain point, you know, the

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twist comes where we'll say, like a supernatural sort of

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element gets introduced and you know, it's off to the

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races from there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary of it.

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In my mind. There are a couple of things about

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this book that immediately left leap out to me. One

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is your is your writing style? Both myself, murder made,

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Darryl Cooper and others who have reviewed this book have

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noted the similarities to one of my favorite authors, Cormac

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McCarthy on the service level. You don't tend to use

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your quotation marks, but generally speaking that the kind of

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flow of it is very much influenced by his work.

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Was that sort of a conscience influence on your.

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Speaker 3: Writing, Yeah, it definitely was. When I very first got started,

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this would have been back in like two thousand and two.

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I was introduced to McCarthy in a like a Western class,

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you know. I was an English major, and we read

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all the Pretty Horses, and I was I remember very

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very clearly, because I lived alone. I had this great

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little apartment, and I had really nothing else to do.

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I remember just staring at at the page and I immediately,

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you know, grabbed his the other two books and the

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Border trilogy and devoured them in like a week. And

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I just remember feeling like I didn't know this was possible.

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I remember thinking that, like, I didn't understand that somebody

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could be this good, that you could and you know,

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what I'm talking about here is really his his his pros,

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the way that it flows, and it's it's been you know,

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applauded for for decades now. There's there are these different

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influences that I never am quite satisfied with. You know,

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it's sort of biblical, it's quasi Faulknerian. It just seemed

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like there was something else going on. And as I've

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said before in other places, it also seemed to me

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that if you were going to try and write a

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novel that you were, you're going to have to confront

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this guy, you know, in some way, you're going to

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have to engage with him. I think it was it

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might have been Faulkner I forget now, or it was

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Hemingway who said, you know, you have to accept that

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there's a sort of competition between you and you as

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you know, the the up and coming novelist and the

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old timers, and you have to And so I must

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have gone through those books ten fifteen different times over

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many years, and then I had to let it go,

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you know, because there's a place where it's like when

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you put enough, it's sort of satisfying to pull off

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like a quasi imitation of McCarthy, like, huh, it's not

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totally out out of the reach of possibility. Where it

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did seem that way to me when I first confronted him.

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It was just astonishing to me that somebody could be

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that good. And then I got kind of close to

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it and I realized, well, now I need to let

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go because I don't want to just be a guy

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who's aping McCarthy. So, you know, along the way, I've

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had to reevaluate. But yeah, he's he's a you know,

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like I say, I mean, he's a massive influence. And

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I don't think that anybody can cannot confront him at

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this point. Like I've seen people try to avoid the

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the literal like literary elephant in the room and just oh,

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I don't have to, you know, like, yeah, you do.

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We all do.

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Speaker 7: Well it.

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Speaker 2: And there is an element to that that art is

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in conversation or in dialogue. You see this in the

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you know, the famous school of Athens painting, where your

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culture is viewed as all of these great thinkers in

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dialogue one to another, and you have all of the Greeks,

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all of the Romans literally in one conversation. And okay, yeah,

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sure that's painting in the Vatican. You can go see

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it if you want. And okay, sure it's not literally true,

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but there is in the sense that the except that

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the dialectic is a real thing people have. They react

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to one another. And when someone comes up with, you know,

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in any form of art sort of a new technology,

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a new way to express yourself, you can't simply avoid that.

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You can't just start on your own as sort of

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an autodidact. You are a part of that conversation, whether

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you want to be or not. And your point about

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sort of casting your like managing that relationship, I think

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is a particularly apt one. I have, you know, made

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fun of Hemingway a good bit for mostly you know,

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personal reasons. But it is an interesting figure in the

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sense that he is he sort of became a giant,

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and McCarthy to a certain degree, is in dialogue with Hemingway.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 2: There is a through line in their style of writing there,

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but there are a million derivatives of Hemingway.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 2: There are a million people who are just putting on

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that mask and sort of speaking in a lesser version

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of his voice. And I think the way that you

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talk about, you know, managing your influence is a very

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apt one. This is something you oftentimes see on the

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right with political influences, which is this desire to to

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sort of discard yesterday's thinker, a desire to say like, oh,

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that's old hat, we don't talk about that anymore. That's embarrassing.

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But that's not how people work. That's not how any

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form of you know, whether politics or art works. These

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people become. They sort of sink into your bones. You

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can't avoid them. And you know, there's a religious element

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to this as well. Right, there's no true atheists. There's

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a Jewish atheist, there's a Christian atheist, Chinese atheist. These

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sort of things, they do impact you and you are

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in dialogue with them. I just wanted to bring that

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up as kind of the first letterary note if I

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wanted to get into some of the themes that you

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poke at. So when I had this book pitched to

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me by you or by the burb, I had an

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image of what I was expecting. I was not prepared

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for this supernatural element to your work. And it's done very,

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very well. It's gripping, it's interesting and not in kind

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of a you know, Ouiji board like spooky, scary skeleton

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sort of way. But it's just kind of flowing through

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this this world of intrigue. And so there's a couple

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of figures I want to talk about. We'll kind of

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go through different characters, but to me, perhaps one of

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the most interesting characters in this book is the character

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of Cohen, who is this sort of I guess you

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would describe him as sort of a a spook, a spy,

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you know, someone connected to various shadowy organizations, and arguable

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that he is sort of the villain if we can

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talk about it in such gross terms of the book.

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But I'm curious, man, like, let's talk about Cohen because

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he's fascinating.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, other people have liked him as well, And.

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Speaker 2: I want to say you said like him. He's a

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despicable person.

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Speaker 3: But he's fascinating. That that's true, That's what That's exactly

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what Another person I'm thinking of who read the book

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book was like, this person is disgusting, this person is

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absolutely foul. And yeah, Cohen, as in terms of when

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I wrote the book, I like to go in not

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knowing all the details, and he kind of emerged along

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the way. And I think that in many ways, like

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he in his oh the bombastic, the extreme levels that

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he's like at the edge of reality and and whatever

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non realities are happening in the book. He's out there,

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whereas the other characters you know, are are situated differently

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in terms of their relationships to work time and and uh,

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of course this supernatural element, so he was. He wound

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up just being fun to write, even though he is

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just this just I mean, he's a you know, I

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don't want to I don't want to characterize him too much,

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but he uh will just stick with like disgusting and awful.

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But he I liked the fact that he's also you know,

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he's quite capable. He wouldn't be where he is if

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he if he wasn't, and I you know, where else

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would would you want to go with him? Because I

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mean I like him now. I guess what I'm trying

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to say is you start out with kind of like

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a few touchstones or archetypes in in mind, like what

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is this guy's identity, what is his nationality? What what

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are his main beliefs? But you wind up just kind

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of dealing with his behavior as well. And so while

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his identity we could we could we could go through

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that list like maybe he's Jewish, maybe he's not. Uh,

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maybe he's a spook, maybe he's something else. And we

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have you know, analogs for this in our in our

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topical real uh sort of political reality right now in

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you know, various forums like Epstein and whatnot. But in

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the end, and this isn't this wasn't really my plan

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or anything but his behaviors.

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Speaker 10: There's so much rugby on Sports Extra from Sky. They've

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asked me to read the whole lot at the same

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speed I usually use for the legal bit. At the end,

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here goes this Winter Sports Extra is jumpackwards Ruby. For

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the first time we've bet every champion has got much

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exclusively life was actually from the URC, but challenge cupping

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much more. That's the URC and all the best European

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rugby all in the same place. Get more exclusively live

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tournaments than ever before on Sports Extra, Jump.

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Speaker 9: Packed with rugby.

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Speaker 3: Whew, that is a lot of rugby.

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Speaker 10: Get Sports Extra on Sky for fifteenyear of a month

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00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,799
for twelve month search Sports Extra New Sports Extra customers

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only still a person applies after twelve months for the

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00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,120
terms apply.

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00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:08,279
Speaker 11: Life non stop. So don't let coals and flu stop you.

240
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,600
For over forty years, powerful uniflu has helped clear congestion,

241
00:14:12,879 --> 00:14:16,639
runny noses, reduce aches, pains, fever, and relieve headaches and

242
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,440
cough and VITAM and C is built into boost immune systems.

243
00:14:19,679 --> 00:14:22,360
So give cold and flu the old one two with

244
00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:24,639
uniflu available from local pharmacies.

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Speaker 3: Always rebeliefless and his interiority, like the choices he's making

246
00:14:29,879 --> 00:14:35,840
quietly to himself, wind up sort of being more important

247
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if you will, to me anyway, And I hope that

248
00:14:38,159 --> 00:14:39,919
it seems as if you know, when I hear comments

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from you or and from others about coen it that

250
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,240
seems to be the case. Like this is a really,

251
00:14:47,279 --> 00:14:50,120
really nasty it's and again I didn't intend this, but

252
00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:52,279
now that I'm running my mouth on it, it's almost

253
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kind of the idea of like loving your enemies. It's

254
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not necessarily that I want to. I don't want to

255
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crush them. I absolutely do, and I will, but really

256
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:08,600
taking a longer look at them does require, you know, something,

257
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maybe not the love that we It may be one

258
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of these various Greek forms. You know, there's like a

259
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gape and arrows and what have you. Maybe there's one

260
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that's just sort of like studying him.

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00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,399
Speaker 2: There's we'll come back to this, but I want to

262
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,879
explore another theme and then tie it back to Cohen,

263
00:15:30,799 --> 00:15:34,120
which is that a lot of this book exists sort

264
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of in a space between reality and the spiritual world

265
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,279
that simultaneously there are like real physical events happening and

266
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,399
then this sort of you know, drug fueled hate where

267
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you encounter things that are of the supernatural kind of

268
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layered on top of each other all at once. And

269
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,559
obviously it seems as if, you know, you drew a

270
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lot of inspiration from, you know, the mk Ultra project

271
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and other kind of things going on right during the

272
00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:07,639
Cold War. Because, to be perfectly blunt, almost every character

273
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,919
is high for almost the entire book.

274
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:10,679
Speaker 3: On a verity.

275
00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 2: It's like just concoction of different substances. And what's interesting

276
00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:18,039
is that there's the scene and I sort of want

277
00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:20,879
to talk about it more where you know, we're introduced

278
00:16:20,919 --> 00:16:24,279
to kind of a cast of different characters, different operatives.

279
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,720
Obviously you have Cohen, who's this sort of you know,

280
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mastermind figure but there are there are others, right, There

281
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,919
is a you know, former you know, navy seal who

282
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,320
is much less I guess kind of thinking than others.

283
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,960
But also, uh, there is oh and what's the name?

284
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:46,679
I cannot let me pull it up exactly. Uh uh, DiAngelo,

285
00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:51,840
who's this sort of interesting operative. And we sort of

286
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,000
realized that, you know, several characters were involved in these

287
00:16:56,039 --> 00:17:01,480
sort of you know, government experimentations of you know, brainwashing

288
00:17:01,679 --> 00:17:05,519
of sort of combining you know, supernatural forces with you know,

289
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:11,559
chemistry and with kind of psychology to create monsters basically.

290
00:17:12,039 --> 00:17:13,839
And so I guess if I can ask you a

291
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:17,440
two pronged question, One, to what degree are you pulling

292
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,880
on you know, things like mk ultra on you know

293
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,400
kind of like the CD underblody of the intelligence agency.

294
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:24,680
And then also, you know, kind of coming from that,

295
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,640
let's talk about the character of DiAngelo, because he he

296
00:17:27,759 --> 00:17:31,079
is sort of a fascinating foil to Cohen, they're both

297
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,319
you know, evil and despicable, but DiAngelo is sort of

298
00:17:34,319 --> 00:17:38,960
a purely a creature of his passions, of his desires.

299
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,240
He is more almost he's beast, you you know, he's

300
00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:45,720
a you know, prolific murderer, you know, a sexual criminal.

301
00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:49,279
And while he is useful you know for those things

302
00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,519
to to Cohen and others, there's a definite difference between

303
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:54,640
the two of them.

304
00:17:54,799 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, very keen observation and as well with with

305
00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:06,839
Denny and so you're right, Cohen is is sort of

306
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,680
at another level and in terms of the two pronged aspect.

307
00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:16,680
So there's a book. We may have mentioned this before,

308
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:23,000
but Dave McGowan's work, he's passed away now. He has

309
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,880
some books that I read long long ago, in like

310
00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:28,720
two thousand and six, two thousand and eight, he had

311
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:35,880
Programmed to Kill and something from Laurel Canyon. This was

312
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,559
about the possibility that CIA or other groups had been

313
00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:46,680
involved in the music scene, and that don't I don't

314
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,599
necessarily want to come down on and I don't know

315
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,400
who could really. You hear a lot of these sort

316
00:18:52,440 --> 00:19:00,200
of very certain statements about the mk ultrs stuff, the

317
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,839
Mockingbird stuff, co Intel pro and maybe we know what

318
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,799
we know, but my attitude is like, I'm not sure

319
00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:11,079
that we really know even what we don't know, if

320
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,559
that makes sense. I'm not sure that we we have

321
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,640
a full grasp on the scope of the thing, and

322
00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:22,799
so part of the program to kill idea was that,

323
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,799
as you allude to, there may have been some efforts

324
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:34,279
to isolate sociopaths or psychopaths and then develop them in

325
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:39,400
some capacity. And you know, Son of Sam, your work

326
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:45,079
with with Thomas kind of touches on this area. And

327
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,720
so in fiction, the thing I really like about fiction

328
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:56,160
is I I can approach it, you know, almost any

329
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,039
way I want. And there's truth to be found from this,

330
00:19:59,759 --> 00:20:01,839
you know, these different ways that you can juxtapose it.

331
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,480
So as just sort of mentioned like I'm not sure

332
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,039
you know what happened. I think just the fact that

333
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,559
we think, or you know, the general populace sort of

334
00:20:14,599 --> 00:20:18,519
believes that these things happened is remarkable. And this gets

335
00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:23,000
into like conspiracy as a culture or some sort of

336
00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:28,359
folkloric element, which is also very fascinating. And if I

337
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,200
can jump over and then hopefully I can get back

338
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,920
to this, you know, that's sort of the crowbar imagery,

339
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,680
is this idea of like what if we could get

340
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,319
a crowbar underneath this veil, this little cap that seems

341
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,039
to be on well, maybe knowledge in general, you know,

342
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:52,720
in a philosophical sense, but absolutely in a like a

343
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,960
political journalistic sort of sense, like what actually happened, you know,

344
00:20:58,079 --> 00:21:01,319
since my dad was born, say like nineteen forty six,

345
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,920
what has been going on? It's it's that mystery aspect

346
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,480
to me is fascinating. And so jumping back to DiAngelo,

347
00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:18,920
my supposition is that there if you were going to

348
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:24,039
do something like break a man and then isolate certain

349
00:21:24,079 --> 00:21:27,880
components like it doesn't it doesn't seem entirely out of

350
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,359
the realm of possibility to me, I'm not sure how

351
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,960
it would be done or if it could totally be done.

352
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,039
And so that's this sense that Angelou is sort of

353
00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:42,960
being contained, he's barely under control, and you know, some

354
00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:47,240
of the action and the plot sort of well a

355
00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:51,359
good bit of the Maybe the underlying logic is about

356
00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:57,559
the the constantly on the edge efforts to contain what

357
00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:02,640
is you know, really uncontainable. Can they control D'Angelo or not?

358
00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:06,559
And when you know, in the world of espionage or

359
00:22:07,839 --> 00:22:11,880
or spooks, it's no big deal, or at least we

360
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,799
think it's no big deal. I presume it's no big

361
00:22:13,839 --> 00:22:17,240
deal to just erase people, you know, a delete assets

362
00:22:17,279 --> 00:22:19,559
and things like this as necessary as sort of a

363
00:22:19,599 --> 00:22:25,960
corporate type of logic that it would certainly apply. And Denny,

364
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,799
who you refer to is is a little bit different

365
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,079
in it. Well, I'll just let the reader sort of

366
00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:35,880
sort of explore that the go ahead.

367
00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: He in my mind, uh, because there's a scene where Denny,

368
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,759
who is this he is a you know, a former

369
00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:50,880
military man. I think it's a former seal, much different

370
00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:55,640
both physically and kind of in effect than D'Angelo. He's

371
00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:58,759
very professional and he's in very good shape. He is

372
00:22:58,799 --> 00:23:06,160
not this kind of insane, meth fueled, potentially demon possessed lunatic.

373
00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

374
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 2: Not a good guy, right, but a different sort of thing.

375
00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:14,119
And there's a moment, and we haven't really gotten into

376
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,079
the driving force of the plot deliberately, so I'm saying

377
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,119
a thousand times read this book. But there's a moment

378
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,720
because close to the end where Denny inadvertently crosses over

379
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,559
from being you know, fully kind of material physical only

380
00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:34,240
existing in that kind of professional aspect of being you know,

381
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,319
an amoral contract killer and he sort of peers beyond

382
00:23:39,319 --> 00:23:42,880
the veil and is completely and totally shattered by it.

383
00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 7: Yeah.

384
00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 2: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but

385
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,039
your book plays with time in sort of an interesting way,

386
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,119
and the gap between the altered perception of time, whether

387
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,480
due to drugs or sort of you slipping below the veil.

388
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:02,359
And there's this great moment where Denny is on another hit, right,

389
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,319
He's basically going out to you know, eliminate two people,

390
00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:09,720
you know, a man and a woman, and there's this

391
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,160
recurring item, these sort of you know, black cubes, and

392
00:24:14,319 --> 00:24:17,400
Cohen is basically carry this with you. Don't press the button.

393
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,799
Whatever you do, don't press the button. And Denny does

394
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:25,559
and he's sort of cast out of time, right. He is,

395
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,680
you know, moving around, he doesn't know where he is,

396
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,160
and it's this sort of interesting thing where we see

397
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,880
someone who is you know, displayed an extraordinary amount of

398
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,519
willpower mastery over himself. Is something that comes up multiple

399
00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,160
times as Denny and he's completely floored. He goes from

400
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,079
you know, being this kind of ultra professional to basically

401
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,759
frantically stumbling around just trying to get away from it.

402
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,279
And I think that's an interesting moment because you see

403
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:52,880
someone who exists kind of not purely but largely in

404
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,400
you know, as a materialist, forced into another realm and

405
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,559
they're floored by It's a very interesting scene.

406
00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: Well, thank you. I'm so glad that you talked about it.

407
00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:05,480
I really now that you talk about it. I like

408
00:25:05,559 --> 00:25:11,000
that scene a lot as well. And you can kind

409
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,039
of see this sometimes in the world. You know, we

410
00:25:13,079 --> 00:25:20,200
talk about normies and you know, not necessarily so much

411
00:25:20,319 --> 00:25:23,440
the veil, but if you have these conversations and you

412
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,920
just bring something up, like your opinions about once again

413
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,079
Epstein or you know, people will just stare at you, like,

414
00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:35,359
what are you talking about? You know, you and I

415
00:25:35,519 --> 00:25:40,599
share like probably a lot of overlap in our worldview,

416
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,160
and you know, if we went to seven to eleven

417
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,160
and just you know, just struck up a conversation with

418
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,680
some random person, I mean, who knows, they might be

419
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,519
way more far up than we are. But there's like

420
00:25:54,559 --> 00:25:58,559
a disconnect, you know, a sort of fracturing or dissociation

421
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,640
that we kind of have to take for granted at

422
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,039
this point where much has been made about you know

423
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,799
that the alienation and isolation of Americans and families and

424
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,160
all this is absolutely real, and so to the extent

425
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,960
of a book like this or a really extreme story

426
00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:22,279
can connect with readers, you know, that's sort of one

427
00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:23,880
of those levels where.

428
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,279
Speaker 12: Did you know employers can gift up to fifteen hundred

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438
00:26:55,079 --> 00:27:01,559
Speaker 7: The Twelve Days of Christmas eurospar had for me twelve

439
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,559
Christmas buddings, eleven cakes are baking, ten salmon smoking, nine

440
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,039
Christmas crackers.

441
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,839
Speaker 1: Eight Lovely Jesus even sheets of roping, six stucking fiddlers.

442
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 13: Five Misspons for Christmas, case, three Brussels rouse, two turkey

443
00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:22,720
legs under Christmas made super easy spine.

444
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 14: You're super easy supermarket.

445
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: I can imagine, and you know we don't need to

446
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,319
get into personal stuff unless you want to. I'm happy to.

447
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,799
But I can imagine a scenario where you take somebody

448
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:42,119
who's highly skilled and very athletic and very kind of ordered,

449
00:27:42,519 --> 00:27:48,839
and then you expose them to something bigger and more expansive,

450
00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:51,960
and like a bug, they'll just sort of shut down,

451
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,039
which is kind of what you're describing happens with Denny

452
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,039
when he makes a mistake. And the reason't I sort

453
00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:03,799
of laughed when you brought up as, uh, you know,

454
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,519
Denny's told not to to fool with this little object,

455
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,640
and uh, I don't know, I just get a chuckle

456
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,680
out of the idea, like that's the first thing he does,

457
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:17,960
you know, like of course he's going to hit yeah, yeah,

458
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,799
but you know. And then the thing about DeAngelo, just

459
00:28:21,799 --> 00:28:25,039
to maybe juxtapost him a little bit more, is even

460
00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:30,079
though he's not as as you very stutely pick up,

461
00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:33,839
you know, he's he's wild. He's more wild, he's more

462
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:40,279
extreme and just sort of yeah, maybe demonic, but he

463
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,400
knows maybe because of a greater exposure or something more

464
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,960
like living on the other side of that line between

465
00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:53,599
darkness and the light. I sort of, I mean, I

466
00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:56,000
I don't know that I communicated this in the in

467
00:28:56,039 --> 00:28:59,400
the book, but I sort of imagine DiAngelo knowing, like, no, dude,

468
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,279
don't ever a hill hill straight, you know, mass murder

469
00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:05,960
people and just rate people on the side of the

470
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,279
road or whatever. But he knows not to touch that

471
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,799
one thing. And it's like this, this kind of knowledge

472
00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:15,799
of darkness, if you.

473
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: Will, the just a teaser. I don't know if you

474
00:29:22,079 --> 00:29:23,000
have time to address it.

475
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 10: Uh.

476
00:29:24,519 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought up the Epstein stuff, because there's

477
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,200
a moment. There's a scene where we see kind of

478
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,000
Cohen in his element, right, kind of interacting with you know,

479
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,440
the rich and powerful elite, which if you're at all perceptive,

480
00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:41,559
you can pick up on some uh, some figures you

481
00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:44,799
may recognize there. I mean Maxwell, right is you don't

482
00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:46,839
even have to read between the lines to pick that

483
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,240
one up.

484
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:48,079
Speaker 10: Uh.

485
00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:52,599
Speaker 2: But there's a there's a really great scene that takes

486
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:59,400
place with our our two Rhodesian mercenaries and Cohen. It

487
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,839
takes place at a Grateful Dead concert, and there's multiple

488
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,000
things going on at once. Right. They are there to

489
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,880
meet someone, and this is the kind of designated place.

490
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,640
But I thought it was interesting the way you talk

491
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,519
about the kind of blurring of reality that occurs at

492
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,160
a big concert like that. I'm not a deadhead. I've

493
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,680
never been to a Grateful Dead concert, but I have

494
00:30:23,759 --> 00:30:26,759
been to jam band concerts before where you see that

495
00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:29,039
sort of stuff happen, and as someone who has been

496
00:30:29,359 --> 00:30:32,240
you know, relatively sober his entire life, it's always a

497
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:35,480
very weird thing to be sort of an island in

498
00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:39,559
that you notice things going on. And I thought that

499
00:30:39,599 --> 00:30:43,319
was particularly interesting in the way that you describe this

500
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,920
event in a religious context, right people are sort of praying,

501
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,079
either literally or adopting this kind of you know, I

502
00:30:50,079 --> 00:30:53,480
guess we could say like spiritual relationship to the musicians

503
00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:57,279
is super is really fascinating because I'm sure you and

504
00:30:57,359 --> 00:30:59,640
my listeners will as well have sort of felt that

505
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,319
at some sort of mass event before, where you feel

506
00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:06,279
like you're being sort of carried along and pulled into

507
00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:09,960
something bigger than yourself. And so there's more to talk

508
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,519
about in that scene, particularly the introduction of the roadman,

509
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:18,079
who's a really fascinating uh character there. But uh, yeah, man,

510
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:20,079
I just want to say you you you quite accurately

511
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:23,799
described something there, and it was an interesting thing to

512
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,359
weave into, you know, this broader kind of theme of

513
00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:30,720
you know, using a crowbar to crack the grate to hell,

514
00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:33,720
you know, using the you know, kind of like science

515
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:37,839
and technique chemistry, right, because you know LSDE plays a

516
00:31:37,839 --> 00:31:41,279
major role in this to blur the lines between the

517
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:44,240
physical and the and the spiritual world. Yeah.

518
00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:50,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, great observations. My friend. I I too. You know,

519
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,759
I did go to some Grateful Dead shows.

520
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:55,559
Speaker 7: Uh.

521
00:31:56,759 --> 00:31:59,599
Speaker 3: I think I went to maybe five or six all

522
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,680
here in Oregon. And this was right before Jerry Garcia died.

523
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,720
And but but my family we weren't, you know, dead heads,

524
00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:13,680
we weren't really. Later on on the West Coast, I

525
00:32:14,039 --> 00:32:17,400
ran into people who were who who This was like

526
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,480
a multi generational experience, and it was shocking. It was

527
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,039
it wasn't It wasn't like I didn't didn't participate. I mean,

528
00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:30,319
I don't want to lie. I definitely, you know, took

529
00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:35,039
my share of drugs. And but there's there was I

530
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,759
think the sheltering hand of God, frankly, you know, kind

531
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:45,559
of was there because there were things that I saw

532
00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:51,519
that were so disturbing that it didn't have anything to

533
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:55,599
do with like, oh you don't get it or you know,

534
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,839
you're not quite you know, and this this kind of

535
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:03,599
like language has been around since the beginning of LSD

536
00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:06,720
culture in the sixties and whatnot. You know, the squares

537
00:33:06,759 --> 00:33:10,960
and the and the hippies and all that, so, you know,

538
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,880
to whatever extent that applies is sort of irrelevant to Yeah,

539
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,079
some of the just absolutely bizarre stuff that that I

540
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:24,400
saw during that time, and this does go back to

541
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:31,319
the history with CIA and Dave McGowan's sort of presumptions.

542
00:33:31,599 --> 00:33:34,680
I again, I don't know there. I would encourage anybody

543
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,880
to check that stuff out. It's free online and there

544
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,759
are plenty of videos people who break it down, and

545
00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:43,680
there's enough there where you kind of have to go.

546
00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:49,079
It's circumstantial in large part, but there's enough there that

547
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,039
you have to at least take it seriously. You know,

548
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:59,880
all of these lines and relationships and connections, they start

549
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,039
to get so tight, the weave is so tight that

550
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:05,519
you it's really hard to say how much was intentional.

551
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,760
There's always been this, not always, but you know, again,

552
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,880
since the origin of like the hippie countercultural sort of

553
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,840
as a controlled maybe lever against you know, traditional culture,

554
00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:28,159
there's always been this this sense that there's more moving behind,

555
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:32,239
you know, behind the curtain or under the carpet. But

556
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,679
there what I saw on what I'm trying to kind

557
00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,320
of drive towards, there's another element that again feels beyond

558
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:44,599
anyone's control. There's no way that CIA and LSD, no

559
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:50,280
matter how powerful it is, it could orchestrate some of

560
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,840
the like cultish sorts of aspects that emerged out of

561
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,960
that scene. And I have mixed feelings about the Grateful Dead.

562
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:04,920
That concert that that's depicted in Crowbar actually happened in

563
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:09,840
It's a throughout the book, you know. There I'm just

564
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,599
playing real fast and loose with history. But I'm trying

565
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:17,320
to touch, you know, find these touchstones to to again

566
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,119
kind of do this work of fiction, you know, to

567
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,639
make the the fanciful in my mind fictional so that you,

568
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:31,760
the reader, whoever can can have a sort of, you know,

569
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,320
at least an experience of delight, if not something maybe

570
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:41,159
more than that. And the the relationship with the Grateful

571
00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:45,559
Dead and Oregon and Ken Keysy and Eugene Orgon in

572
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:49,920
particular is all is all very strong, you know, It's

573
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:53,480
it's different now. I I like a lot of them,

574
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,360
a lot of the aspects. Our our pal Sandbatch has

575
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,719
kind of come to and he and I have talked

576
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,480
about this, come to defend the Grateful Dead in many

577
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,599
ways because musically and I don't know how interesting this

578
00:36:11,639 --> 00:36:14,079
would beat anyone, But it used to be the case

579
00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:16,800
that everybody said, oh, the Grateful Dead music sucks, it's

580
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,840
just about the drugs, and you were like, well, yeah,

581
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,280
that's kind of true. But the music was at times

582
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,559
spectacular and there was there there.

583
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:30,159
Speaker 2: Garcia's uh, Garcia's bluegrass album is amazing, amazing, a fascinating album.

584
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he has a bunch of collaborations with I mean,

585
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,920
all sorts of people. So to say that he's just

586
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,320
some you know, guy that we can sort of dismiss

587
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,880
if we're being honest, it's it's not really possible. And

588
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,039
I'm not a huge I don't have like bootlegs or anything,

589
00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:54,039
but I have enough exposure to this too to I

590
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:56,960
guess form some sort of opinion, and that opinion is

591
00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:03,039
kind of like they deserve their place. There's some fantastic

592
00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:06,599
music to find and maybe maybe a lot of the

593
00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:11,039
cultural elements, you know, just needed a place to sort

594
00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:17,000
of come to rest. A lot of it feels like uh,

595
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,559
fractured families, a lot of people that if you again,

596
00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:25,360
I only went to like six shows, but you you

597
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,639
can ostmost this stuff on the West Coast at least

598
00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:31,039
in in kind of in my in my youth, you

599
00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:34,920
could there's a there's a huge element of just brokenness

600
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,480
to it all, an unnecessary kind of brokenness. So how

601
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:41,079
much of if we go back to the CIA, and

602
00:37:41,079 --> 00:37:43,079
and I keep, I keep harping on the CIA, but

603
00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:47,079
to me, that's just sort of a placeholder for for

604
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:52,159
whatever these forces are. The Cabal a lot. There was

605
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,079
a lot of damage that was done to individuals, to

606
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,199
you know, local communities for sure too. I don't I

607
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:09,960
sort of perceived Christianity as impenetrable. I don't see that

608
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:12,159
damage can really be done, but it can be done

609
00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:18,440
to us as individuals, you know, so well, Christianity will prevail.

610
00:38:18,519 --> 00:38:20,880
A lot of people wasted a lot of time and

611
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,199
whereas they might have been led different ways.

612
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 2: There's given me a weird reference but huge influence of mine.

613
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:35,360
Morgth did a movie review of the Dirty Harry series

614
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,159
over the course of like six months, great series of

615
00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:40,719
podcasts with Endeavor, another person who's been on the show,

616
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,119
really great and while they're obviously reviewing the movie, they're

617
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:49,840
also talking about it as a cultural artifact, as a

618
00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:56,280
reaction to the decadence and decay of the basically the

619
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,400
hippie movement on the West Coast that you know, after

620
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,360
the party did, San Francisco became a shithole because it

621
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,639
was full of you know, people who were horribly addicted

622
00:39:05,679 --> 00:39:09,119
to drugs, who had fled bad situations and were now

623
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:13,920
sort of getting subsumed into a really dark, dangerous criminal underworld.

624
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,480
Another mutual friend of ours, Dearrol Cooper, spoke about this

625
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,559
a lot in his series on Jim Jones. You have

626
00:39:20,639 --> 00:39:23,239
these many of these lost people kind of cast to

627
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,880
the wind, you know, many of the indexing with you know,

628
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,840
psychedelic substances, who've just had their minds broken, you know,

629
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,519
whether that was pre existing or something that happened. And

630
00:39:33,599 --> 00:39:36,400
so many of those people were ripe for you know,

631
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,079
initiation into cults. I mean, you live in the land

632
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:41,280
of cults, at least in a modern context, right.

633
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: There are dozens of them.

634
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: You know. Jones is obviously, you know, an infamous case.

635
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:49,119
But what's interesting is that you know many of those people.

636
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 15: The body is that of a thirty five year old

637
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,360
significant lysians to the face, particularly the right temple, correlating

638
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,039
to the inter cranial hemorrhaging observed seatbelt operations clear across

639
00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:09,719
chest and abdomen, broken femur and tibor right leg. Cause

640
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,599
of death drink driving, drink and drive. And you could

641
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:16,960
put someone on a mortuary slab a message from the

642
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:20,800
Road Safety Authority. Visit orsa dot ie at Central.

643
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 12: We've got amazing Santa Savors from now until the Big

644
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,000
mam arrives.

645
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 9: Like Coca Cola zero and Die Cooke twelve compact six year,

646
00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:30,400
each pus deposit selected O'donnald's crist sharing bags two.

647
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,119
Speaker 12: You're a weech and oyster based seven blanc ten year.

648
00:40:33,159 --> 00:40:37,679
Speaker 9: Oh stuck up at CenTra this Christmas CenTra live every day,

649
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:38,599
enjoyl calls.

650
00:40:38,679 --> 00:40:43,519
Speaker 2: Sensibly when you know, when the party kind of stopped

651
00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:49,400
in California moving north right, they moved into northern California

652
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:50,960
into the Pacific northwest.

653
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 7: Yea.

654
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,119
Speaker 2: And so it was you know, very much ripe for

655
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,480
these kind of bizarre, you know, alternative religious movements, these communes,

656
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,480
and look, I'm not trying to say all of them

657
00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:04,079
devolved into you know, Satanic child sacrifice. It was a

658
00:41:04,119 --> 00:41:07,039
dark thing. There's a lot of bad things going on,

659
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,159
and I think your point about you know, this sort

660
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:12,960
of being confluence of you know, broken people is apt.

661
00:41:13,519 --> 00:41:15,800
I want to to sort of refocus back on the

662
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,960
narrative to talk about the character of I think he's

663
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,679
introduced as the roadman, right who they are two mercenaries

664
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:28,440
meet at this concert. Excuse me, I don't want to

665
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,519
just ask you an overly blunt question, but what's going

666
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:36,199
on with him?

667
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 3: So you've given me the opportunity of my friend to

668
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:46,679
use the the David Lynch out out where you know,

669
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,679
notice that the famous meme where it's the interviewer asked him,

670
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,599
so do you believe in demons? And he says yes,

671
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,679
And the guy says, you know, will you elaborate? And

672
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:03,480
he just says no. I think that from a craft

673
00:42:03,519 --> 00:42:05,559
point of view, we could kind of maybe approach it

674
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:12,239
from this if it's helpful. I also don't want to

675
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,960
be dismissive to the question. I'm I'm trying to kind

676
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,920
of deploy some levity, but if I if I give

677
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:27,960
away too much. There a book like Crowbar, So if

678
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,320
people are thinking about, you know, getting into it, they've

679
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,199
probably seen some people say like this is a mind

680
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,920
fuck or this is a I mean on the back

681
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,400
of the cover it says it's a psychogenic fugue.

682
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 2: This is I think that is roughly what I sent

683
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:45,880
to you halfway through it.

684
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so for me, when I was

685
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,800
thinking about how to how to do this, how to

686
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,840
build it, I had it took some doing, you know,

687
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,960
some very fine brushstrokes, which I think maybe I don't

688
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,800
want to disrupt those. Maybe maybe we could revisit it

689
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,119
like in I don't know, a year or something, and

690
00:43:07,119 --> 00:43:09,119
and it would be interesting because I'm not trying to

691
00:43:09,159 --> 00:43:10,039
be coy with it.

692
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:14,599
Speaker 2: But no, I respect that answer immensely.

693
00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:17,559
Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate that. You know, from a craft

694
00:43:17,599 --> 00:43:22,239
point of view, there's precedent in the so called hero's

695
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:28,519
journey for these figures, these helper like figures, and usually

696
00:43:28,599 --> 00:43:32,480
this is some sort of Merlin or Gandalf, sort of

697
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,960
wizard sort of character. And so you know, I don't

698
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,199
think it's giving too much way to say that that's

699
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,639
certainly on my mind. I'm really steeped in the in

700
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:51,400
the structure side of writing. I took a bunch of

701
00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:57,800
screenwriting classes when I first got started, and which was

702
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,840
probably you know, one of the most useful things I

703
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,920
ever did, and really saturating myself in this uh you,

704
00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:11,440
I came to realize it isn't that something like the

705
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,880
hero's journey is absolutely necessary to every story, But it's

706
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,079
it's providing you a bunch of tools as the writer

707
00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:23,920
that you can deploy as you see fit. And so

708
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,119
if we go back to the roadman and Gandolf and Merlin,

709
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:36,679
you know these guys in in take Tolkien. I I

710
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,559
always thought that it would, or at least I think

711
00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:42,920
now that if we had some sort of offshoot series

712
00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:45,920
where you did like what Star Wars does, where you

713
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,000
have all the backstory on Merlin and you hear like,

714
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,519
I mean, I don't, I mean I would read it.

715
00:44:52,559 --> 00:44:55,360
I would be fascinated because it would be Tolkien. But

716
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,599
I wonder too if there's something really great about having

717
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:04,039
to make a whole bunch of presumptions about the mystery

718
00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:08,679
of Gandalf the Wizard's sort of character, like what was he?

719
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:09,760
How old is he?

720
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:10,079
Speaker 10: Like?

721
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 3: Where did he learn all this? Is he timeless? Does

722
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,199
he have? Is he outside of time? Is he inside

723
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:21,239
of time? Why does he seem to have premonition? What's

724
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,320
with like that that Council of Wizards? You know where

725
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,039
there and I know that there are some answers to this,

726
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:33,880
but the roadman too, it might be useful or interesting

727
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:40,000
to know. Hunter S. Thompson is a big has always been,

728
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,039
you know, kind of like a guiding light. I read

729
00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:51,840
him when I was very young, and he spoke of

730
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,280
himself as he has this quote where he's something like,

731
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,960
I am merely a roadman on the wheel of time

732
00:46:03,039 --> 00:46:06,159
as something something like that. He's speaking about himself. Sorry,

733
00:46:06,159 --> 00:46:11,159
that's my dog at you know, and his work and

734
00:46:11,199 --> 00:46:14,079
his place as he views it in the world. And

735
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,679
that always struck me as an interesting thing. And when

736
00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:19,480
you go into the there's a whole lore about this

737
00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:24,599
idea of the roadman, and he's he's a mythological character.

738
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,599
And I'm, i'm this is outside of our tradition, it's

739
00:46:28,599 --> 00:46:32,320
outside of European history, though we probably have an analog.

740
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,760
But the roadman will be this quasi trickster sort of

741
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:43,199
figure who seems to be inserted into lives and narratives

742
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,760
as if to like stitch certain points up, to make

743
00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:55,760
to maybe adjust things within time. And I it's it's

744
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,519
definitely in the Native American lore, and I think it's

745
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:03,880
in maybe some Australian Aboriginal stuff. They two have them

746
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,440
this idea which kind of comes into play with Crowbar

747
00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:11,960
of them. They have dream time and then they have

748
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,559
what did they call it, like a song line or

749
00:47:15,599 --> 00:47:23,480
something like that, which which is a pretty interesting you know,

750
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:24,840
I don't want to go into it here. I'm not

751
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,360
sure that I even could. But that's the Roadman, you know.

752
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,719
The Roadman seems to be this figure who may or

753
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,800
may not be real, who is inserted by supernatural forces

754
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:43,079
relating to like a higher teleological sort of scheme that

755
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:48,079
maybe we don't even recognize or partaken on a conscious level.

756
00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:53,119
But he has limitations. That's what I like about the

757
00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:55,719
Roadman is he's not a god, you know, he can't

758
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,719
come down and just he's not even Gandalf. He can't

759
00:47:59,039 --> 00:48:02,119
like wave his wand and change things. But he has

760
00:48:02,159 --> 00:48:05,480
some power. So I really like the constraints on this.

761
00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:11,960
I like the idea of a world where there's an

762
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,559
ecology of sort of creatures with various powers. I say creatures,

763
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:22,320
but I mean people essentially. And in some ways maybe

764
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,480
that mirrors you know, a lot of the narrative that's

765
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:31,079
being pressed down on us as moderns, where you know,

766
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:36,079
there many people have pointed out that it may be

767
00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:39,480
the case that what's called the eloy and the Morlock,

768
00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:47,079
where we have this an emergent division with humanity, where

769
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,400
some of us are just going to be pressed into

770
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:55,320
this kind of like sixty five IQ kind of meaty hand,

771
00:48:55,559 --> 00:48:58,960
animalistic slave level, and this will be like the ninety

772
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,599
nine percent just basically animals, you know, and then at

773
00:49:03,599 --> 00:49:11,039
the top would be this elite, ultra wealthy ruling class

774
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:13,360
that would be maybe as many as you know, a

775
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,360
few hundred thousand people. Not not really an outcome that

776
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,239
I think I want to be a part of. Not

777
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,400
I think part of the Christian vision hucks. This comes

778
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:31,280
from Huxley, and I think HP Lovecraft maybe the originator

779
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:41,320
of this. But the kind of classic overarching conspiracy narrative

780
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:47,280
that you get from William Cooper, Alex Jones and many

781
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:53,639
others will relate to this end goal of reducing the

782
00:49:53,679 --> 00:49:59,920
masses into this again kind of sweaty, just hovele do

783
00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:04,719
welling shit cast. And and we're when they'd apply us

784
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,159
with drugs and enough sex that we would never even

785
00:50:07,199 --> 00:50:11,519
really complain about it and probably eliminate us at some point,

786
00:50:11,559 --> 00:50:15,960
I guess if the robots come around. But how I

787
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,719
got off on this Now I don't remember, but I apologize,

788
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,239
but this is no just.

789
00:50:21,199 --> 00:50:23,639
Speaker 2: Talking about the character of the roadman. I believe was

790
00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:24,559
the jumping off point.

791
00:50:25,159 --> 00:50:28,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so I guess I was.

792
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 2: We were talking about I believe if I can sort

793
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,960
of jumpstart you, this sort of ecology of different entities,

794
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,960
different beings, each with different powers. Sorry, I'll throw it

795
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:38,320
back to you.

796
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Thank you very much. So this is just suggestion,

797
00:50:49,559 --> 00:50:52,000
if you will, kind of like I look at it

798
00:50:52,079 --> 00:50:57,000
like atmospherics. You know, it's there. We don't necessarily have

799
00:50:57,079 --> 00:51:01,599
to be explicit in a in a short novel like this,

800
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:07,559
but it's part of conspiracy culture, and and the idea

801
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:18,239
that there are these competing and invisible agendas is something

802
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,360
you know, we talk about this all the time, just

803
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:25,679
in in in our culture, our shared our thing, and

804
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,480
it's been there's a historical precedent, you know, for for

805
00:51:30,599 --> 00:51:34,119
having this suspicion of of elites or what have you.

806
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,679
But I think that's very reductive in the end. I

807
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:43,119
think I like the idea that the mystery is much bigger,

808
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:48,480
and that while the elites maybe they certainly have more

809
00:51:48,519 --> 00:51:53,239
time and money, but there to me, they are in

810
00:51:53,320 --> 00:52:01,320
no way in communion with with like, uh, the real deal.

811
00:52:01,639 --> 00:52:07,519
And I think that conceptions of the spiritual world that

812
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,400
again we have in Christianity. I don't know that there

813
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,639
are exactly nine types of angels, but there may be.

814
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:21,280
But right now, you know, the prevailing kind of consensus

815
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,320
is just, well, there's angels or there's not. Well, how

816
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,639
about the idea that there's this whole world of it?

817
00:52:27,679 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 14: There's a whole The black Tag event is now on

818
00:52:31,039 --> 00:52:34,920
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819
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,639
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820
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821
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822
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Curries for the tech you love at prices you Lodore mom?

823
00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 8: Why do they call it Scottish cheese?

824
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:53,639
Speaker 3: Cottage cheese? Honey?

825
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure?

826
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 8: Did the dogs in other countries speak different languages?

827
00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 14: Yeah?

828
00:52:59,039 --> 00:52:59,519
Speaker 4: I think so.

829
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 3: And when we get there, well, we've got to fix

830
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,880
the car first. But there's someone coming.

831
00:53:03,639 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 8: To help us.

832
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,199
Speaker 3: Is it a man from Geneva?

833
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 11: Not Geneva, he's from Aviva.

834
00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 4: Oh there's a van now.

835
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:13,519
Speaker 16: For car insurance with breakdown rescue. It takes a Viva

836
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,400
visit a Viva Dota E to say fifteen percent.

837
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 9: Acceptance criteria, terms and conditions apply. Minimum premium of three

838
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,519
hundred and ten year old. Fifteen percent discount applies to

839
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:25,000
new policies BottomLine See Aviva Dota Eva details. Car insurance

840
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,559
is underwritten by a Viva Insurance Arland duc Aviva Direct

841
00:53:27,639 --> 00:53:30,119
Arland Limited is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland.

842
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 3: Societies of Angels and all sorts of all the behaviors

843
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:40,000
and activities that we might partake in are going down

844
00:53:40,039 --> 00:53:43,880
with them as well. And so the roadman, to me

845
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,320
is is just a sort of figure who who may

846
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:55,719
be suggestive of a broader reality, much more elaborate and

847
00:53:56,559 --> 00:54:00,400
detailed than how I think we've kind of been used.

848
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:04,760
And I think in our in our efforts to sort

849
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:12,280
of discern the mystery, it's it's been so diminished. And

850
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,639
you hear guys like James Polos talk about this all

851
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:20,159
the time, that the medieval viewpoint was again way more

852
00:54:20,199 --> 00:54:25,039
colorful and detailed and elaborate than what most of us

853
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:29,000
now consider spirituality. And I think this is actually a

854
00:54:29,079 --> 00:54:31,719
really important point that he makes and a much much

855
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,079
bigger deal than it than it would certainly then it

856
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:36,800
would seem like I have to make I have to

857
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,719
pay the bills. We all do. And you can see

858
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:46,480
how as that pressure builds and a form of psychic

859
00:54:46,519 --> 00:54:50,599
control is in place already is kind of my supposition here,

860
00:54:51,199 --> 00:54:55,559
and that once again, you know, the Roadman and various

861
00:54:55,559 --> 00:54:58,840
other of these characters who show up in Crowbar are

862
00:54:59,639 --> 00:55:04,480
merely suggestions or allusions to this idea that there could

863
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,960
be if maybe this is a solid way to put it,

864
00:55:09,199 --> 00:55:12,840
a collision of of like rivers of narrative that are

865
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,280
they're actually colliding and mixing. And because we don't necessarily

866
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:24,159
really prioritize spiritual discernment, that ship's just gone right past.

867
00:55:24,599 --> 00:55:27,039
Whereas maybe if you were at a Grateful Dead show

868
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,840
and these people were a little wild, and you've been

869
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:35,920
exiled recently and had a little trauma, you're you're my Rhodesians.

870
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:45,280
Maybe the uh, the the seemingly firm boundaries of reality

871
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,920
have been jarred enough that a character like this could enter.

872
00:55:52,639 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 2: So one more character study, Okay, what what what am

873
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,119
I to make of the the character of of Satya

874
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:06,840
s A t y A ah, because seemingly this is

875
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,239
a and I might be reading this wrong, but this

876
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:13,960
is a character with two names or two identities. Yeah,

877
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,079
and there's this really fascinating as you could consider almost

878
00:56:18,159 --> 00:56:23,679
like exorcism scene, sort of three quarters of the way

879
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,719
through the book. So what were you pulling on for

880
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,440
that character? What what were you trying to get across

881
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,199
with her?

882
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 3: Well, good question. One. We can say this. I think

883
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:50,480
that the female of our of our species, has a

884
00:56:50,559 --> 00:56:59,280
higher propensity for mimesis than most of most of us males.

885
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,800
It seems to be almost part of the package. Like

886
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:09,119
God put this into her and he has a reason.

887
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,599
And I'm not, you know, really making judgments on it.

888
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:19,760
I'm not a big fan of of mimesis, you know,

889
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:23,639
most most of us with agency. I like, I like

890
00:57:23,719 --> 00:57:26,480
your opinion, you know, I don't want to and hopefully

891
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,880
people find something interesting. In mind, I like individuals, and

892
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:36,360
I don't want to see these. It agitates me. Let's say,

893
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,800
when I see these pictures of well we just call

894
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,360
him NPC's and normies, you know, it's like they're just

895
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:47,239
kind of going along with the herd. This is a

896
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,039
this is a real thing. I mean, if you go

897
00:57:50,119 --> 00:57:55,280
to the mall or whatever. People will be wearing the

898
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:59,440
exact same thing, thinking the exact same thing, doing almost

899
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,840
the exact same same thing. And this at a like

900
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,760
a visceral level, this disturbs me. It makes me uncomfortable.

901
00:58:08,679 --> 00:58:16,239
And what happens with with Satya is that you're right,

902
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:20,079
there's like there's a form of exorcism that takes place.

903
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:26,960
But we also sort of find out in that scene

904
00:58:27,239 --> 00:58:32,639
that she doesn't know herself, and she doesn't even know

905
00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:37,239
that she doesn't know herself. It's completely outside of her

906
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:43,760
purview that maybe something happened to her along the way

907
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:50,199
to divorce what I think of as the true self,

908
00:58:50,719 --> 00:58:55,519
you know, the soul, the spark that cannot be destroyed

909
00:58:56,199 --> 00:59:02,760
from whatever pressures and force and influences, uh, you know,

910
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,440
at the norm or sort of standard level, are influencing people.

911
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,280
And then in the case of Sodya, we've we've made

912
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:17,280
this more extreme and it suggested that she's a sort

913
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:27,519
of Manchurion, sort of honey pot mk ultra subproject. And

914
00:59:27,559 --> 00:59:31,360
so this is an element of the the whole kind

915
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:36,159
of palette of conspiracy that strikes me as pretty plausible

916
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:41,480
that you can you can take people or the propensities

917
00:59:41,519 --> 00:59:46,960
that maybe certain classes or types of people have already,

918
00:59:48,239 --> 00:59:52,320
and you can incentivize them in such a way that

919
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:55,119
it's just sort of like they're they're good to go.

920
00:59:55,199 --> 00:59:59,320
They're going to go, and whether it's you know, being

921
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:05,159
a sort of honeypot, sex spy, you know, basically a

922
01:00:05,159 --> 01:00:11,639
whrror or a murderer or something else becomes their identity.

923
01:00:12,559 --> 01:00:14,480
So I'm not sure if this helps, But you know,

924
01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:21,880
Sadya in I guess it's Sanskrit is truth, that's what

925
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:28,679
that word means. And in Crowbar, I'm sort of using

926
01:00:28,719 --> 01:00:35,880
her again as a sort of our archetype to stand

927
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:41,960
in for this mystery that is female nature. And so

928
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,400
if the reader, if the reader wants to go into

929
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:49,480
that and sort of dissect maybe what her assumptions about

930
01:00:49,599 --> 01:00:52,800
what the roadman is, what her assumptions about herself are,

931
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,800
and then how she proceeds through the rest of the book.

932
01:00:59,199 --> 01:01:01,440
I hope, I hope you know that there's there's a lot.

933
01:01:01,519 --> 01:01:02,960
I think there's a lot to take away. I mean,

934
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,199
I've injected it there and I hope that people can

935
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:10,880
can get something from that. But yeah, it's and we

936
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,400
go back to for a second to like The Grateful

937
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:22,960
Dead and the sixties thing. I mean feminism is, you know,

938
01:01:23,119 --> 01:01:27,920
in Blood Meridian, there's this famous line where the hermit

939
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,679
says to the kid, there's four ways that the world

940
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:37,079
can end, and he lists up these four ways, and

941
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,599
it's a completely bizarre, classic Blood Meridian moment. I love it.

942
01:01:42,079 --> 01:01:47,960
But women are included among the four and it's it's

943
01:01:48,039 --> 01:01:52,159
kind of my opinion that that is the angle that's

944
01:01:52,199 --> 01:01:58,239
being taken. Whether it's forces of evil or some entirely

945
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:08,079
human cabal, it's this very particular kind of pivot point

946
01:02:08,239 --> 01:02:11,440
of our existence that I think was attacked. And then

947
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:16,360
I think that basically white men sort of you know,

948
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:20,079
we're incentivized to look other ways. And so that's Satya

949
01:02:20,119 --> 01:02:23,639
stands for a lot in my conception of the thing.

950
01:02:24,639 --> 01:02:27,639
Speaker 2: Well, and that's she's a I honestly wish we'd brought

951
01:02:27,639 --> 01:02:29,880
her up earlier, because she is one of the most

952
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,320
interesting characters for exactly that that reason. Right, there's a

953
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,320
literal plot role that she plays right to move the

954
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,800
story forward, which, by the way, I just want to

955
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,440
take a personal roundo applause. We are now an hour

956
01:02:41,519 --> 01:02:44,239
in and have not described the plot in any way

957
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:50,360
which was deliberate, but also that sort of separate you'ld say,

958
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,199
almost like the on the level of like the iconic

959
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,679
or the symbolic is what makes her and the other

960
01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:00,840
characters we've mentioned so interesting that gentle listener, if you

961
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,719
were primarily interested in an interesting book, right something you

962
01:03:03,719 --> 01:03:07,280
can sit down and you know, sort of amuse yourself.

963
01:03:07,559 --> 01:03:10,039
This book will do that. But what makes it interesting

964
01:03:10,119 --> 01:03:12,719
is that there there's a multitude of layers to it,

965
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:15,679
and you know, with someone who similarly has a you know,

966
01:03:15,719 --> 01:03:19,119
familiarity with I would call it conspiracy culture or whatever,

967
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:21,239
you'll pick things up you'd be like, oh, I see

968
01:03:21,239 --> 01:03:24,400
what you're doing there, or oh, this is like something else,

969
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:30,360
and so it creates this sort of fascinating not to

970
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:32,480
use this term incorrectly, but this is sort of like

971
01:03:32,519 --> 01:03:36,519
fascinating you know, alternative reality where it's this like, oh,

972
01:03:36,639 --> 01:03:42,199
is this is like a view on sort of a

973
01:03:42,239 --> 01:03:44,679
conspiracy made reel. You know, you get to sort of

974
01:03:44,679 --> 01:03:47,599
peer into that and look at different you know, moments

975
01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:49,719
at which this kind of shadow world has sort of

976
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,559
breached above the surface and in your mind connect the

977
01:03:52,599 --> 01:03:55,519
dots and obviously there's a lot more going on there

978
01:03:55,559 --> 01:03:59,679
but it's very engrossing, really really fun to read. I

979
01:04:00,199 --> 01:04:03,559
we haven't really spoken about, you know, our heroes. I

980
01:04:03,559 --> 01:04:07,840
guess we can use that term, but the two of

981
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,480
them have a really interesting dynamic, one to the other.

982
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:14,119
I won't spoil it too much obviously, the fact these

983
01:04:14,119 --> 01:04:17,639
are sort of Rhodesian mercenaries. But there's a really fascinating

984
01:04:17,679 --> 01:04:23,159
conversation and there are not how to say this gently,

985
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:27,679
there are multiple instances of potentially ritual murder in this book,

986
01:04:28,199 --> 01:04:32,079
all of which are very striking in the way that

987
01:04:32,119 --> 01:04:35,039
they are described. And there's one moment sort of after

988
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:40,360
you know, the Grateful Dead concert is finished, where our

989
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,440
two kind of heroes and Cohen are at this sort

990
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:48,480
of bachanalien after party, and one of them, I believe,

991
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:50,440
with Jay sees Cohen.

992
01:04:52,239 --> 01:04:55,360
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1009
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Speaker 2: Love ritually murdering a woman. Yeah, And there's this sort

1010
01:05:56,519 --> 01:06:00,360
of bizarre, you know moment the next morning where he's

1011
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,679
walking around looking for signs of it, and he introduces

1012
01:06:03,679 --> 01:06:05,280
it to his friends like I think this just happened.

1013
01:06:06,039 --> 01:06:08,320
And we see this kind of back and forth between

1014
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:11,320
the two of them multiple times where they're basically saying like,

1015
01:06:11,599 --> 01:06:14,639
are you seeing this? Are you recounting this? And it's

1016
01:06:14,639 --> 01:06:18,559
this great repeated motif throughout the whole thing. There's another

1017
01:06:18,599 --> 01:06:20,960
one where we see I believe it's the other one.

1018
01:06:21,519 --> 01:06:24,199
I might have this backwards in my mind, recounting sort

1019
01:06:24,199 --> 01:06:28,519
of an inexplicable spiritual encounter with like a siren or

1020
01:06:28,559 --> 01:06:31,159
a sucubist or something, you know, some sort of like

1021
01:06:31,159 --> 01:06:36,679
a feminine spiritual force as a child. And I just

1022
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:41,119
want to say, man, really like a fascinating motif there

1023
01:06:41,199 --> 01:06:43,920
over and over again, you know, to see them sort

1024
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,239
of doing something very rational, which is checking one another,

1025
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,400
like am I going crazy? Am I seeing this? Is

1026
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:53,199
this real? And I don't know, man, it's really really

1027
01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:55,920
well done. Just something I wanted to point out there.

1028
01:06:56,519 --> 01:06:57,920
You know, as I sort of joked about earlier, we

1029
01:06:57,960 --> 01:06:59,880
have not talked about the plot at all. I've not

1030
01:07:00,039 --> 01:07:03,119
spoiled it really at all. There's a lot we didn't

1031
01:07:03,159 --> 01:07:06,400
get into. So buy this book. It's really good man.

1032
01:07:06,679 --> 01:07:10,559
Like I said, Andy, Uh, excellent work on this. I

1033
01:07:10,559 --> 01:07:13,760
had high expectations after our conversation and you exceeded them

1034
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,400
and then some. So just a I guess kind of

1035
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:16,599
a round of applause for me there.

1036
01:07:17,079 --> 01:07:20,039
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, man, I'm that's really gratifying

1037
01:07:20,079 --> 01:07:20,360
to hear.

1038
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:25,239
Speaker 2: So as we come to time, obviously I will link

1039
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,360
your sub stack your socials as well as uh where

1040
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,719
someone can buy this book. But uh, yeah, man, it

1041
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,519
seems that I'm not the only person who's a fan

1042
01:07:34,559 --> 01:07:36,960
of this book. It seems to be doing quite well. So,

1043
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,400
in addition to everything else, support one of our guides.

1044
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,440
It's it's going great, but you too can be a

1045
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,360
part of it and get a decent book for your

1046
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:46,760
trouble y man, What's what's next from you?

1047
01:07:47,079 --> 01:07:47,199
Speaker 7: Right?

1048
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:49,239
Speaker 2: What's what's what should we what should we keep our

1049
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:49,639
eyes on?

1050
01:07:50,719 --> 01:07:55,119
Speaker 3: Well, I'll say this like this morning. I think I

1051
01:07:55,159 --> 01:07:58,239
shared this with you already. We I don't know that

1052
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:02,280
this has ever happened before that an independently published book

1053
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:08,639
has cracked the top one hundred in the literary fiction category.

1054
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:13,519
So this is the heavyweights. This is Fitzgerald, this is McCarthy.

1055
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,399
Right now, King of Dogs is sitting at eighty six,

1056
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:23,600
and I don't know. To me, this is unprecedented. So

1057
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,600
I think I will continue to try and fan the flames.

1058
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:32,079
You know, I've said this before, and other people have

1059
01:08:32,199 --> 01:08:35,520
done a better job saying it. If our guys on

1060
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:43,439
our side doesn't commandeer the cultural apparatus that is movies, music, novels,

1061
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:46,840
not just you know, print magazines. These are great, but

1062
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:49,800
we have to get to film eventually. So the next

1063
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,159
thing that I'm and this has been the goal the

1064
01:08:52,159 --> 01:08:57,520
whole time, is is to you know find I suppose

1065
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,319
the right set of money guys and and art guys

1066
01:09:02,279 --> 01:09:06,760
who want to look at making these into films or

1067
01:09:07,199 --> 01:09:10,079
series or what have you. And so I'll be spending

1068
01:09:10,119 --> 01:09:13,520
some time on that, and I don't know. In the meantime,

1069
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:18,199
you know, I'll be shilling heavily on X and probably

1070
01:09:18,239 --> 01:09:19,600
watching the Jay Burton Show.

1071
01:09:21,199 --> 01:09:23,119
Speaker 2: Well, thanks man, I will have to have you on

1072
01:09:23,199 --> 01:09:26,159
again already, have some things planned I want to talk about.

1073
01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:27,680
I'll give it a little bit of time before I

1074
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:31,319
get to your earlier book, just to give people a

1075
01:09:31,359 --> 01:09:33,680
break from book reviews, because that a whole bunch right

1076
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,359
in a row. But I'm really excited to read that.

1077
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,520
And yeah, we'll have to have you on again potentially

1078
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,039
to talk about someone else's book. Just tease that. But

1079
01:09:42,079 --> 01:09:45,239
as far as my stuff, Jay Burton Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

1080
01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:47,479
anywhere you want to listen to podcasts, this is what

1081
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,720
I do full time. So your support keeps the lights

1082
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:52,880
on here. Lets me keep doing this. If you want

1083
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:54,560
to support me through me a few bucks a month

1084
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,880
on gum Road, Patreon or substack, get the episodes a

1085
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,560
few days early with no annoying ads. You can also

1086
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,920
support us more directly by just either giving me money,

1087
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,079
which is you know, always nice, or you can add

1088
01:10:06,079 --> 01:10:08,880
over to our sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness and Coaching. I

1089
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:13,159
got pinged on telegram by JB actually while recording this.

1090
01:10:13,159 --> 01:10:15,560
That's which I realize is it's poor form. But nonetheless

1091
01:10:16,039 --> 01:10:19,079
across my screen flashed image of JD making fun of

1092
01:10:19,079 --> 01:10:23,000
me for looking weird in my workout check in photo

1093
01:10:23,119 --> 01:10:25,840
that I post every morning. So if you want to

1094
01:10:26,079 --> 01:10:27,600
be part of a group chat where you can not

1095
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,640
only get stronger but also make fun of me for

1096
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,800
looking weird or being gay, which is pretty common, I

1097
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:36,039
highly recommend Axios Remote Fitness Coaching, Andy, it was great

1098
01:10:36,079 --> 01:10:38,000
talking to you, man and everyone at home. Keep your

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head up. I can't last forever.

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