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Start having the 47 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:03.359 most fun ever at Shumba Casino dot com. 48 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:05.560 Billberg never there wherever he if I lost the terms 49 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:06.920 of conditions eighteen plus. 50 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:19.319 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 51 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 52 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:29.800 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 53 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:33.520 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 54 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:37.800 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 55 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:51.319 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 56 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:57.479 Baptist deacon, family man, pillar of his Florida community, and 57 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:01.599 serial killer of prostitutes. Chilling true crime from the author 58 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:05.599 of Lobster Boy by Day. Sam Smithers was the deacon 59 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:09.319 of his Baptist church in Plant City, Florida, a respected 60 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:13.039 neighbour to many, and a devoted husband and father. But 61 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:16.639 after the sun set, he became something else, a violent 62 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:22.319 attacker and killer of prostitutes. Smithers twisted double life came 63 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.400 to light when a local woman who had hired him 64 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:26.879 to take care of her property, found him in her 65 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:30.639 garage cleaning an axe and then discovered a puddle of blood. 66 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.800 Through exclusive interviews with Smithers's wife, who described her spouse 67 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.719 as nothing but a doting husband and father, author Fred 68 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.919 Rosen learned why this man of God raised in an 69 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.759 intensely religious Tennessee home was the last person anyone with 70 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:51.680 suspect of committing these savage crimes. Rosen reveals the details 71 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:56.080 behind the deaths of Chrissy Cowan and Denise Roach after 72 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.960 Smithers picked them up in Tampa, and the fate of 73 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:03.199 a man who seemed holier than now but was actually 74 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:06.800 guilty as sin. The book they were featuring this evening 75 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:11.639 is Deacon of Death, Sam Smithers, The serial Killer next 76 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.560 Door with my special guest, journalist and author Fred Rosen. 77 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.560 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 78 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.800 for agreeing to this interview the incomparable Fred Rosen. 79 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.439 Only the Hey wait a minute, only Captain America or 80 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:32.519 the Mighty Store incomparable. You know, no, I appreciate that, Dan, 81 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.759 and I love being with you because you're the best. 82 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:39.079 And thank you, Fred, You're the best. 83 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.000 Well, thank you. But you know, I gotta tell you 84 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:50.480 this book, I spent a lot of time rereading it. Wow, yeah, yeah, 85 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.519 I love and I was going, oh, that's a good line, 86 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:56.120 you know, because I wrote it a while back. But 87 00:04:56.519 --> 00:05:03.079 what's so interesting to me is how this guy's behavior 88 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:10.199 with women is typical of what today we call the 89 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:16.000 knee to movement where a guy is harassing women and 90 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.680 here it's only you know, it's fifty twenty years ago. 91 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:21.240 It wasn't considered a big deal. So, you know, I 92 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:24.240 think we've come a bairful ways, you know, which is 93 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:33.399 a good thing, obviously, you know. Anyway, Yeah, tell. 94 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:37.639 Us spread because for people that are fans of Lobster Boy. 95 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:40.519 And we've talked about Lobster Boy in the program, among 96 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.439 about twelve or fifteen other books, or at least twelve 97 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:45.800 other books that you have, but one of the more 98 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:50.199 fascinating obviously because of Lobster Boy with the actual lobster 99 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:57.519 clause born to and in this book Gibsonton, Florida. Again 100 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:02.720 at least you open in Gibsonton, Florida and you explain 101 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:07.480 what that is and the relation to Lobster Boy, which 102 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:12.240 is Grady third. You know. So tell us about the 103 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:17.240 Lobster Boy connection and what you were doing in Gibson Gibsonton, 104 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:18.680 Florida at that time. 105 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.199 Well, here's what happened. I put all this together. It 106 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:31.199 took about four years. Okay, in nineteen ninety four, I 107 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:38.160 was in Florida in Gibsonton, which is the home of 108 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:43.199 the Carneye off season, and that's where I was investigating 109 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:48.360 the murder of Lobster Boy, who'd been a Carneye freak 110 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.480 and was killed in a murder for horst scheme by 111 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:57.279 his ex wife and her son. And I had gotten 112 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.360 involved in the case and came up with the evidence, 113 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:01.560 but led to the fiction of the killer, two of 114 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:06.360 the killers. Anyway, the point is that four years later 115 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:10.000 I was talking to a woman named Villa Bean who 116 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:15.319 was a public information officer in the Saint Police Department, 117 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.160 Hillsborough County. You know, maybe these four years, three years, 118 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.279 I don't know what it was, but anyway, I was 119 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:25.079 asking her, Hey, you got any other interesting cases. Next 120 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:29.160 thing she knows, she's telling me about Sam Smithers and 121 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:34.160 I went, I don't believe this. I just don't believe this. 122 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:39.079 You know, a church deacon who's a serial killer. We 123 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:43.040 didn't have that back in Brooklyn. Dan. It was just 124 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:48.480 really weird, and I said, I really got to get 125 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:59.079 into it. And as I did, what what I really 126 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.600 got into? This is the first Yeah, this is the 127 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:06.519 first time I was doing a book, A better serial killer. 128 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:13.560 I got very Lucky, you know, the just lucky, the 129 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.360 the serial killer, Sam Smithers, that was his name, the 130 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:22.519 guy serial killer. His wife was willing to talk to 131 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:29.319 me extensively. Oh boy, and that really, you know, it 132 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:32.840 really gave me an understanding about how these people of 133 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:38.320 their psyches are formed. This is not something that just happens, 134 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:40.639 you know what I mean, It's not out of the blow. 135 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.559 And quite frankly, I don't believe it's just a question 136 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:49.000 of of DNA. I think of the combination of things, 137 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:50.600 but especially background. 138 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:57.120 Sure, now with that incredible access, but you take us 139 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:00.519 early in the book, the November two, nineteen nine three, 140 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.440 and then they've found a woman with ligature marks around 141 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:08.440 her neck beating about the hands. They concluded probably a 142 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:12.440 strong man strangler with a belt, but they put the 143 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:18.919 prints through the system, no match. Later on the news, 144 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:23.639 Susan Cowell had called her niece Rosalind Cruz. So you 145 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:28.759 talk about this, Larry LINGO, Yeah, you know, tell us 146 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:32.480 what tell us a little bit about Rosalind Cruz and 147 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.399 what they found out quickly about her background. 148 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:38.600 Yeah. 149 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:43.080 Well, the bottom line is this, I forgot you were 150 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:47.639 pulling me in, but I forgot that what happened was 151 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.480 four years after doing those interviews and Gifts, and I 152 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:57.120 realized that on the day that I finished the interview 153 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:03.120 with the family of Grady Styles Junior, who was lobster 154 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:07.159 boy in Gifts, I was driving back on the main 155 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:14.399 drag on which the body was found. Shortly after that 156 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:19.799 starts the story, and that's and eventually it's identified as 157 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:26.600 Rosalind Cruz, who was a someone who was working as 158 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:30.639 as as a prostitute. And I actually drove by the 159 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:34.000 body without realizing it was there. I mean it was night, 160 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:37.639 you know, and you know, but I was able to 161 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:40.399 pinpoint and on the basis of the time frame that 162 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:45.480 the police established and what I knew, you know, when 163 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:50.519 I when I had interviewed these individuals in in in 164 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:55.519 giveson tent and so I knew the area, you know, 165 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.519 I knew the area real well, and also I knew 166 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.679 the police real well, and those things will help. 167 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:09.639 It's interesting too you talk about initially with the investigation 168 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:14.559 and a detective Lingo, very colorful, Larry Lingo two years old. 169 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.559 You talk about that initially that there was different suspects 170 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.919 with the cruise case, the pat and Linda Ryan, so 171 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:25.960 as many cases do is we find out in these 172 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.399 books that that's what happens, then the police have to 173 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:34.399 follow those logical lines, those logical leads. So what does 174 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.399 what does it? What does? How do they proceed with 175 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.559 this case? 176 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:48.519 Well, you you the in this particular case, and that 177 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:56.200 Lingo was with the same police department that subsequently investigated 178 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:04.159 the death of these two of of the two absolute 179 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:10.200 known victims one and ten percent of Sam Smithers, and 180 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.519 so he was able to eventually put it together even 181 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.320 though the DNA wasn't one hundred percent. They had, you know, 182 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:20.679 they had myochondrial DNA, but it was really enough to 183 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.960 prove it was a match. So they already got him 184 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:31.879 at three. And then there was one in the Florida Panhandle. 185 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:38.080 As I recall that also they suspect that he had 186 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:41.559 committed when he lived up there. You know, I don't 187 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.480 think we'll ever know exactly how many people this particular 188 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:46.919 this is one of those cases. I don't think we'll 189 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:49.840 ever know exactly how many people this individual. 190 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:52.080 Murdered. 191 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.759 You know what I mean, it's it's but it's all 192 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.679 very very sad, and that's what gets to me more 193 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:07.480 than anything. Damn the individuals that were murdered, you know, 194 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.879 and you know, but it just bothers me. And then 195 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:17.519 the wife and son. Oh my god, I've never ever 196 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:21.759 had a situation where I talk to you know, it 197 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:23.759 was a son of a serial killer. 198 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:24.559 Excuse me. 199 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:28.039 You know that doesn't usually happen in real life. Maybe 200 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:32.039 on investigation discovery, you know, but you know, not for me. 201 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.960 Let's before we go into his life and then and yeah, 202 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.840 of course the incredible access and information you gained from 203 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:46.600 talking to his wife Sharon and the son. Let's talk 204 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:49.080 about how he got to be a deacon of a 205 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:53.039 church and his background before that, living with his father 206 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:56.879 Alvin and his mother Lenny. What was the Again, we 207 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.279 don't get to see this in the book till much 208 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.919 later when his brother testifies. Later, we will want to 209 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:08.320 jump ahead. Tell us about his early life in this house. 210 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:12.799 Well, he grew up in Chanttanoo suburb of Chattanooga, Tennessee, 211 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:19.519 Sam Smithers, and he was a He grew up in 212 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:27.039 a very uh in a church going family. And the 213 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:32.840 thing is we can bottom line it, which is Sharon, 214 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.440 his wife told me that he was physical He and 215 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:40.320 his and his siblings were physically abused by his mother. 216 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:44.399 So let's start with that. You know what I mean, 217 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:50.399 we're not talking about he's going around the rats and 218 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.200 things like that, you know, like you know you see 219 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.639 with certain profiles serial killers. Now what's happening here is 220 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:04.960 he's getting abused physically by the mother. It's also possible 221 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.519 to may have been some sort of uh, you know, 222 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:15.639 other abuse, but in any case, I mean, there's no 223 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:19.240 evidence of that, but it's anything's possible. But the bottom 224 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:30.320 line here is this. He went to church, he on 225 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:34.240 a regular basis, and he was very active in the church. 226 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:41.080 That's where he met his his eventual wife. But he 227 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.120 also had so many problems from what was going on 228 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:51.639 in his life that he eventually became I don't know, 229 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.120 I guess you'd call it a firebug. Where he'd set 230 00:15:54.279 --> 00:16:00.919 fires that would he would he'd set the fire and 231 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:03.000 then be the guy that put it out and therefore 232 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:08.200 he was a big hero. That happens and they eat 233 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:14.679 and while there was what he called some therapy involved 234 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.200 after that, curd Is never left. 235 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:20.759 Yeah, it's very interesting. We just did a program with 236 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.080 Frank Girardo and his book Burned, and it was almost 237 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.600 the same thing. A volunteer fireman, person involved as a 238 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:32.519 firefighter starting the fires, then getting that congratulations for being 239 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.399 the genius to put out the fire. In this case, 240 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:39.039 you say, he finally gets caught by this inspector Hayes 241 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:43.279 after a woman's cars on fire. He bangs on the door, 242 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:46.559 Oh my god, your car's on fire. So finally, even 243 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:50.000 though you say he's probably got got aided by the 244 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:53.799 community in terms of leniency, finally he's arrested for that. 245 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:56.840 And of course not given much for this arson not 246 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:58.120 taken too seriously. 247 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:04.000 Bottom line is he he made oh man. 248 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:12.279 Set fires at his church. People could have reary, rearly hurt. 249 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:17.839 And it luck that it didn't work out that way, 250 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:23.759 you know what I mean, walk that were able to 251 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:28.279 put all that out and and and uh, you know, 252 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.160 and nobody was heard. 253 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:35.160 There was also signs again you referenced the me Too 254 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.680 movement in and so maybe we should talk about that. 255 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:42.559 There was some events that would be disturbing today and 256 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.359 but at that time we're treated a little bit differently. 257 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:47.319 What are the kinds of things that some of the 258 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.920 people that volunteered for community service at this first Baptist 259 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:54.039 church reported to the authorities. 260 00:17:55.119 --> 00:18:02.839 Yes, yes, what happened was he was he was the 261 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.240 what do you call them, the Cnstodians, Yes, Sir Custodian 262 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:13.880 at the First Baptist Church. And what happened was that 263 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:21.279 that included working with women who was serving community service. 264 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:26.119 And I mean it's like the last thing in the 265 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.000 world to be thinking of, I mean, prior to the 266 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:37.119 V TOO movement certainly. And what happens is women come 267 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:42.599 forward and they say, okay, he he came on to me. 268 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.599 A couple of times, they say, put hands on them 269 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:54.359 physically a sexual way. And the church then has to, 270 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:59.920 you know, to make a decision about what it's going 271 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.960 to do out there. By the way, again, the guys 272 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:06.880 a den. We're not talking about you know, where you're 273 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:12.440 a reverend or anything, you know. But you know, but. 274 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:18.680 It's funny, Dan, you know, whenever I do one of 275 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.599 your you know, I'm lucky enough to be interviewed by you, 276 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.119 I got to go back and read the whole book 277 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.759 because if I don't do that, uh, I don't know 278 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:31.759 what the hell I did. 279 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:36.920 Yeah, you know, and so I was, you know, and 280 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.119 and you know when I look at this thing, you know, 281 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:48.319 oh man, what's what's that word? I don't know. I 282 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:50.079 don't know if the word is enay blame. 283 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:52.640 You know. 284 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:57.279 Here look but you know, yesterday I'm reading about less 285 00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.079 Moon deft. 286 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.839 Okay, right, you know, let's. 287 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:07.559 We okay, But here's a guy now, not saying it's 288 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:13.640 the same situation, obviously, but here's the guy he's doing, 289 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:19.039 who's coming on to women in exactly the way that 290 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.440 some of these individuals have been who've been indicted the 291 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:27.240 a serial killer. Now, I'm not saying that Harvey wat 292 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.519 Stand is a serial killer or something. That's the point, 293 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:36.119 the point we let this stuff slade for so long 294 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:42.160 because women with second class citizens, at least, you know, 295 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:47.440 for United States, I always have to believe that their 296 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.759 candad is you know, further further along than ours. 297 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:57.000 Stand, well, the citizens aren't. So the thing is is 298 00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:59.880 that you still have the same sort of mentality everywhere. 299 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:02.759 I mean, it's it's a universal mentality that now has 300 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:07.519 come in to light. It's been a radical shift with Weinstein, 301 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.920 you know, and Cosby and so you know, you have 302 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:16.400 the situation now, but back in this in this case, 303 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:18.799 in this story, what it really indicates is that people 304 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.680 were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt 305 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:23.960 because he was a deacon, because he was a family 306 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:27.200 man and that and that helped him, like you say, 307 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.480 enabled him to be able to continue with If he 308 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:32.519 started with arson and he could and he had the 309 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:36.480 sexual harassment, then that emboldened him to believe he could 310 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:38.519 get away with a lot of other crimes. And then 311 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.599 that's why he was Even though it seems like he's 312 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:44.480 a little bit organized, he was sloppy when it counted 313 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.200 so luckily. 314 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:51.799 Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know, is your s What 315 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:57.880 gets to me is that no names, no nhing. But 316 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:02.440 it seems to me that since we have a pattern, 317 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:07.039 and again this is you know, it's not through crime 318 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.039 per se, but it looks to me maybe it is 319 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.240 that you've got a pattern of people enabling a guy. 320 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:17.880 What happens at the end of the day, two individuals 321 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:23.920 are murdered, and of course, you know, when those individuals 322 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:29.079 happen to be prostitutes, their lives are not considered to 323 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:35.079 be the same by a lot of people. Okay, but 324 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:39.160 that's not the point. Lives or lives, you know. 325 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:43.559 And well the first person, the first person that disregarded 326 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.640 them is Sam Smithers. So the thing is and then 327 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.319 then from there. From there, we don't care as much. 328 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.920 But the first person was able to do that was this. 329 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:55.640 You know, what's interesting in your book is that you 330 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:58.119 go back and you talk to his wife, but you 331 00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:00.960 weave it into the story. This guy is and I 332 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.599 mean lots of other women that have been married to 333 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.200 serial killers associated with serial killers said he was really 334 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.880 great in a relationship. Again, this one is even more 335 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:12.759 detailed than that. He wasn't violent. When he got angry, 336 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.519 he went for a walk, he went outside, He never 337 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:20.759 he never spoken crude language. His sex was normal, even 338 00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:24.079 though he was frequenting prostitutes. He always made it home 339 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:29.119 for supper. And he was a good father. And the exaggeration, that's. 340 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:35.680 You're putting all this together from what I wrote. 341 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:38.799 And I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, gee, why is 342 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.119 it the world Canadian now that please hired as a 343 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:51.240 spoken you know, you you put it all to scuriously. 344 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:59.000 It's amazing, isn't it. I mean, it's you know, he see, 345 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.400 I'm not as I'm not adversed. You do a lot 346 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:05.200 of interviews. He talks to a lot of writers, certainly 347 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.759 a lot more than me, So I'm not as versed 348 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.759 as you are on you know some of this stuff. 349 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:21.160 I have to say that this guy, the Ellen, his son. Yeah, 350 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:23.119 I'm a baseball. 351 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:26.759 Fan, and so when I found out the son was 352 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.200 I just looked this up. I wrote a note to 353 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.920 tell Dan this. I wrote a note. You're ready for this? 354 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:40.799 His son drafted by the Boston Red Dogs, right, and 355 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.720 in nineteen ninety eight. Okay, And I'm looking through the 356 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:50.519 list of names, you know, and he didn't go with 357 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:52.519 him because he wanted to go to college and all 358 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.480 that stuff. But I'm looking through the other names. Who 359 00:24:55.559 --> 00:25:00.200 else is drafted that year? Mark Tashera who wound up 360 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:07.000 as the New York Yankees first place. And I'm going, okay, 361 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:11.400 Fred doing a lot of any other instances in American 362 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.960 criminal history where the son of a serial killer is 363 00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:19.640 drafted by a baseball team, let alone the Boston Red Sox. 364 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:21.759 And we have to let our grid friend Hank Garfield 365 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:22.359 know doubt that. 366 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:28.640 Yeah, you know what I mean, but but you know 367 00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:31.359 it's it's But I guess. 368 00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:33.920 What got me is when I talk to Sharon, she 369 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:35.599 humanized everything for me. 370 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:40.480 That's why I was so lucky. This was not This 371 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.079 is a book about a guy who was a serial killer, 372 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:49.400 but he is a human Dan, that was is he 373 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.640 even a day sitting on death row, but he's still 374 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:53.279 a human Dan. 375 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:58.079 We got to tell people too that Sharon has an 376 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:04.960 even more unusual and extraordinary rule in this story, in 377 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:10.039 this case because later when he is questioned, even in 378 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.920 the arson, he demands that she is in the room. 379 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:16.960 And when they did get the arson, which is foreboding 380 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:21.599 of what happens later, his denials turned into a full 381 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.559 blown confession with Sharon at his side. Isn't that true? 382 00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.799 Isn't that fascinating? I've never seen him by the way, 383 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:34.559 you know, you know, the cops were very specific with 384 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:37.440 me because again these are the Hillsborough County detectives who 385 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.480 work loops the boy. For my money, it's one of 386 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.160 the best police departments, maybe the best that I've ever 387 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:49.440 worked with, detective fishers to the country. So they gave 388 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:54.240 me full access to everything. It was, you know, unbelievable, 389 00:26:55.519 --> 00:27:00.079 and they explained to me that basically what was I 390 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:06.799 think here was that Sharon, Oh, rather Sam. When they 391 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:12.480 got Sam into custody, he wanted Sharon there, and as 392 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:18.400 it turns out, when he was charged with arson, you know, 393 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.480 fifteen twenty years earlier or whatever. It was, the same 394 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:28.680 thing happened. He wanted Sharon there. And the other thing 395 00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:32.680 that was really cool about this case was that it 396 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:36.279 was and I'll just say it, it was a female detective. 397 00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:41.759 That's not common. Okay, let me just say this. Okay, 398 00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:44.839 I realized that we you know, we all watch TV 399 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:46.480 and all this stuff. But I got to tell you 400 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.119 guys that it isn't very common to have a lead 401 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:53.079