WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:04.040 Oh hey, it's your camp counselor. It's only two years 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.160 older than you, but seems just ancient ali Ward back 3 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.119 with another episode of Ologies. This episode has been roughly 4 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:16.000 eleven years in the making. Well, I guess five thousand 5 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:19.120 years in the making. Now listen. If you're already into Egyptology, 6 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:22.399 this episode offers kind of a different look at Egyptian 7 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:26.359 history and its parallels to our culture. Now, if you 8 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:29.640 have no knowledge of Egyptology at all, don't worry. We're 9 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:33.039 going to talk about cats and tombs and hieroglyphs and 10 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:36.359 ancient aliens. That's going to happen also, But first, a 11 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:39.880 quick thanks to the patrons at patreon dot com slash 12 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:43.159 Ologies who donate a dollar or more a month just 13 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:46.719 to keep the podcast going. You're doing it this podcast, 14 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:48.799 which this week was in the top ten science podcast 15 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:51.679 on iTunes. Thank you as always for that. It's made 16 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:54.719 totally independently. Patrons fund it so I can hire an 17 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:57.439 editor and get these out on time every Tuesday. So 18 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:01.159 thank you to everyone who supports a show. Also by 19 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:05.480 putting ologiesmerch dot com items onto your body. The link 20 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:07.400 is in the show notes. We have a bunch of 21 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:13.079 fall collogies, new stuff up. That's just excellent. It's very 22 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:17.280 scholastic looking. You can also support for zero dollars just 23 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:21.719 by tweeting or gramming or telling a friend say, hey, 24 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:26.959 listen to this if you want. You can rate and 25 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.680 review and subscribe. That also helps you know. Award here 26 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:33.519 reads all your reviews because I find them quite touching. 27 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:35.640 And to prove it, I'm going to read one by 28 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.680 JVC fifty five, who said, if you like learning things 29 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:43.280 from people who are so genuinely excited that sometimes they 30 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.400 have to swear, then this is the podcast for you. 31 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:51.000 Five million stars. I heck and agree. Man. Okay, Egyptology, 32 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.719 let's get into it. Obviously it is a study of Egypt. 33 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.239 Come on, but where does the word Egypt come from? 34 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.200 So it comes from a word meaning the temple of 35 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:03.280 taw At Karnak. This is in Luxor, which is apparently 36 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:07.640 not just a moderately priced theme hotel in Nevada. In fact, 37 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:10.919 it's near a place called Memphis. Did you know there's 38 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:14.560 a Memphis in Egypt. It's on the Nile River, and Memphis, Tennessee, 39 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:16.759 is on the Mississippi River. That's why they named it that. 40 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:18.639 Did you know that I did not know that. So 41 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:20.879 I already went down like an hour long rabbit hole 42 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:23.039 researching this episode, and we're still in the intro. So 43 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:26.319 let's get onto it. So on to the ologist. So 44 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:29.039 eleven years ago, I was watching some late night TV 45 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:32.080 and I saw an egyptologist as a guest on Craig Ferguson, 46 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.520 and I was like, what Egyptologists can be on late 47 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:38.919 night talk shows, just chatting about tombs and monuments and 48 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.680 female rulers alongside people like Cedric the entertainer, who was 49 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.400 also on that episode promoting a slapstick film about a 50 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:49.199 corpse in a hotel room. Anyway, I'm like, this egyptologist rules. 51 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:51.280 And I started looking into her work, and whenever her 52 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:53.080 name would come up in the news with a new 53 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.039 book or a new show on Discovery, I would be like, yes, woman, 54 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:00.280 get it. So cut to me starting ologies thinking, dude, 55 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:03.120 what if I did Egyptology and I got to interview her? 56 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:06.680 Would I die on the spot. There's only one way 57 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:09.039 to find out. So I emailed her and we set 58 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:11.439 a date. She was like sure, I drove an hour 59 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:14.639 to our house. So excited, so nervous, I started setting 60 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:17.680 up my mics and I realized with some horror that 61 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.919 my zoom recorder was not in my equipment bag, and 62 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.919 my face became very hot and red, and sitting in 63 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:28.680 her kitchen table, I almost just died of sheer mortification, like, Mummy, 64 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:32.400 me up, I'm done, But she was so understanding, and 65 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:35.400 I slinked off to my car, just defeated by my 66 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.000 own idiocy. We said another date. I showed up again, 67 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:40.759 this time with a bottle of Japanese whiskey as an 68 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:43.400 I'm sorry token. It was ten am, so we did 69 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:45.560 not drink it while recording, but we were off to 70 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:48.280 the races. I had my equipment. We did the interview, 71 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:50.560 and I wish this episode was like six hours long 72 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:52.599 because there are so many things I wanted to ask her. 73 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:56.039 There's so much to know about ancient Egypt. But we 74 00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:00.400 focused a lot on her really astonishing work right about 75 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:04.400 female kings and the sociology of ancient and modern patriarchies, 76 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:07.599 and also her work as an expert in coffins and 77 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:11.840 if there's a Mummy's Curse and dongs of antiquity, and 78 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:14.439 if you don't have a favorite egyptologist, well, hot damn, 79 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:17.240 you're about to. She's a professor of Egyptian Art and 80 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:21.480 Architecture at UCLA, and she's been on archaeological digs, curated 81 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:26.959 museum exhibits, traveled the world inspecting Egyptian coffins, has appeared 82 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:31.480 on multiple Discovery Channel and History Channel archaeology shows. She 83 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:35.120 wrote The Woman Who Would Be King Chepsuit's Rise to 84 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.160 Power in Ancient Egypt and has another book duout November 85 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:41.319 called When Women Rule the World Six Queens of Egypt. 86 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:44.120 So straight out of the gate, we started talking about 87 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:47.800 my forgetting equipment the first time, and the course of 88 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:53.480 multitasking and coffins and her double identities, and she's just 89 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:57.839 amazing and I'm so honored to dig in to this 90 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:22.480 chat with Egyptologists. Doctor Cathlin aka Kara Cooney. I have 91 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.560 a recorder this time. Very exciting. 92 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:28.680 You realize when you're doing too many things, when when 93 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.759 you forget stuff, like like when I showed up in 94 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:35.040 Egypt without any flashlights at all to look at the coffins, 95 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:36.560 and I realized and I had to go to the 96 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:38.360 store and buy some things that i'd have a UV light. 97 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:41.639 But I realized I was just doing too many things 98 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:42.279 many things. 99 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:44.759 Do you need a UV light to look at coffins. 100 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:48.399 It's very helpful because the uv you can see you 101 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:51.279 get an idea of whether the varnish is modern or ancient. 102 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:54.000 Because in museums they've messed up these coffins so much 103 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.759 by overpainting them, over varnishing them, restoring them, and so 104 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:00.399 then you have to figure out first what's ancient and 105 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.759 what's modern. And this happens more in European museums than 106 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:06.600 in Egyptian museums. It happens more in Protestant places than 107 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:07.560 in Catholic places. 108 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:09.040 Really, why do you get it? 109 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:11.560 Because there's this Protestant work ethic, and people feel they 110 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:13.439 should be doing something, and so they miss up their 111 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:17.319 own pieces. And the coffins north of the of the 112 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:21.199 Protestant Catholic divide in Europe are more fake than they 113 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.759 are real. And the amount of time it would take 114 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:26.079 to take all of that new paint and new varnish 115 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.319 off is pretty extensive, and nobody does it. And I 116 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.839 saw one coffin in Leiden in the Netherlands, and I 117 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:33.480 was standing with the curator and we took out the 118 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:36.000 old publication and we realized the entire thing was repainted 119 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:36.680 with new paint. 120 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.839 They just well hands, Idle hands are the devil's work. 121 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.279 I guess in places where you take more coffee breaks 122 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:49.959 and where work is not as much of a driver 123 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:53.040 of human identity, there the coffins are less messed up. 124 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:53.839 Oh my god. 125 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:54.800 So it's funny. 126 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.079 No, that's just enough emphany waiting to happen. 127 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.120 Do less, Yeah, do less, I'll do less. Don't mess 128 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:03.480 with your objects. I don't need to. 129 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:05.720 So I have a bazilion questions. Yeah, before I go 130 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:09.000 for as fast as I can in addressing you. Kara Cooney, 131 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:12.000 Kathleen Cooney or doctor Kathlyn Cooney. 132 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:15.120 Yes, it's a problem on many levels. It's a problem 133 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:17.680 that my mother started by naming me Kathlin, which is 134 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.879 my grandmother's name on my father's Irish side, And yet 135 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:24.040 she didn't like the name Kathy, so she nicknamed me 136 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.759 Kara in advance, and Kara obviously fits my personality better. 137 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:30.839 No one can pronounce Kathlin Kathleen Catherine, and I say no, 138 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.560 it's Kathlin and they look at me like I'm crazy. 139 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.800 And so that's my real name on every document that's official, 140 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:39.360 and Kara appears nowhere that's official. So I use it 141 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:42.720 to create kind of a double personality, where Kathleen M. 142 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.680 Cooney is my academic name and Kara Cooney is my 143 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.319 popular names. I don't put the doctor in front of 144 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.639 my name because I'm also I think I have other 145 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:53.480 things that give me that authority. I'm chair of my 146 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:56.160 Department of neary Stern Language and Cultures at UCLA. I've 147 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:58.560 been a professor there since two thousand and nine. I 148 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:01.000 have about ten graduate students, many of whom have finished 149 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.240 with their own PhDs, and call me doctor Moteur. So 150 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.360 I'm cool with just Karacuney. 151 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.839 And women empower is something that definitely you were an 152 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.959 authority on, especially looking at it through the lens of Egyptology. 153 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:18.040 So your forthcoming book, which was so exciting when women 154 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.839 Rule the World Six Queens of Egypt coming out on 155 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.040 election day? Was that an accident? 156 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:25.879 It wasn't an accident for the editors in that geo. 157 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.439 But I didn't tell them to do that. This is 158 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:32.039 you know, these women, they keep following me and haunting 159 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:36.440 me and lurking behind me and filling my footprints as 160 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:39.320 I walk. Because I didn't want to be known as 161 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:41.440 the chick lit nonfiction girl. 162 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.000 Before she became an author and a UCLA professor. Kara 163 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.200 got her BA in Humanities and German in Austin, Texas 164 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.240 and her PhD in Egyptian Art and Archaeology at Johns 165 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:58.360 Hopkins University. And she didn't intend to focus on female 166 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.720 rulers for her literary career, but they kept coming up 167 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:04.279 in the classes she was teaching, And she says, by 168 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:07.399 writing the books, she's seen new patterns in history that 169 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:10.080 she hadn't even seen in the classroom before. But before 170 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:12.200 we get to that, let's start at a very very beginning. 171 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:14.600 Let's go way back. Well, let's start at the beginning. Now, 172 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:17.720 let's start about why you're an egyptologist. Okay, I know 173 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:21.159 that this question comes up like daily for you, and 174 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.759 the answer is always like, I don't know, kind of 175 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.799 you saw some books when your kid, Your parents brought 176 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:28.799 back some books from the London Museum, right. 177 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:32.519 From the British Museum in London. Yes, And I remember 178 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:35.480 when my mom brought those books home. She brought a 179 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.039 book home on mummies, and she brought these Do you 180 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:42.679 know the publisher Osborne, It's a wonderful publisher. They do 181 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:48.039 children's books that have all kinds of drawings about daily life, 182 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.919 or little detailed, you know, very detailed, tiny drawings of 183 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:55.879 people tanning hides or washing clothes or what it's like 184 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:58.279 to take a bath or whatever, in all little animated figures, 185 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.080 and then little captions can to all of these pictures. 186 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.159 I just looked up these books by the publisher us Born, 187 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:07.240 and I can confirm that they are cute as hell. 188 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:11.399 And I had one for Rome, one for the medieval world, 189 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:17.600 medieval Europe, one for Egypt, and the last one I 190 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:22.080 can't remember right now, but Egypt was the one that 191 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.440 just struck me as the most interesting. It bit me 192 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.440 and it never let go. And yes, you're right. This 193 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:30.480 is the question that I'm asked the most out of 194 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.039 any other why are you an Egyptologist? And I always 195 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.440 give a too pronged answer. Number one, I have no 196 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.440 freaking idea. It's the one question that an Egyptologist would 197 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.519 never ask another egyptologist, or a specialist of ancient Rome 198 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:47.120 would never ask another Romanist, because it's a ridiculously stupid 199 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:51.559 thing to do. You have to spend eight years longer, 200 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:53.759 eight to ten years longer in school than everybody else. 201 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:56.399 You live a life of poverty in comparison to other 202 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.039 people who have the same education level. It's not a 203 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:02.519 clever thing to do. It is a calling. It's something 204 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:04.679 you do because you love it or you just you 205 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.480 have to solve these problems. So we don't ask each 206 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:10.200 other that, but other people ask us that all the time. 207 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:13.120 And so my answer is, I don't know why. It's 208 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.399 something that is that I'm curious about myself. Why I 209 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.320 see the world better through the lens of an ancient 210 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:23.639 authoritarian regime than I do just by looking at my 211 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:25.759 own world around me. But it's the truth. And then 212 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.919 number two, the real answer to your question is I'm 213 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.120 an upper middle class white chick, which means that while 214 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:35.279 my brother was encouraged to become a lawyer, and he did, 215 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:36.879 even though he would be a would have been a 216 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:40.360 great academic, I was allowed to follow my heart as 217 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.039 a woman. And there was still when I was growing 218 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.720 up in the seventies and eighties, this idea that I 219 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:48.919 was not necessarily meant to be the breadwinner in my family, 220 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.639 and I was allowed to be more impractical imprudent, and 221 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:56.639 I was allowed to do that. 222 00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:59.960 Just take note the following should be considered a tutorial 223 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:04.320 by Karakuni on acknowledging privilege. She just nails it. 224 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:07.200 So And of course the upper middle class part is 225 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:11.759 pretty clear. I had the education level and access to 226 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:20.000 these more difficult to acquire academic cultures spaces, and so 227 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:21.759 it was something that I was able to move into 228 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.039 quite easily that other people have a much harder time 229 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:28.279 finding their way into. Or if you grow up African 230 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.799 American in this country and you're constantly assaulted with white 231 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.000 privilege all around you, if you have a chance to 232 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:35.759 study the ancient world, you might do it through a 233 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.559 different political lens, through a lens of afrocentrism, rather than 234 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.120 the lens of the classical white world, or what is 235 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:45.279 perceived is the classical white world. And most people who 236 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:48.240 study ancient Egypt in the United States and in Britain 237 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.360 and in Europe are white people. It's a very colonial science, 238 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.759 and it's off putting for people of color. 239 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:59.039 And do you come up against any resistance or friction 240 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:01.120 with that, and and kind of how do you grapple 241 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:01.320 with that. 242 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.799 It's a very interesting subject to me, how the ancient 243 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:09.279 world is politicized, claimed and used to bolster certain kinds 244 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:11.759 of identities. It's something that we need to pay attention to. 245 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:17.679 There are reasons that when the Lakhma exhibition for King 246 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:19.279 Tut came out in two thousand and five and he 247 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.039 was depicted as a white barbarer streisand and in the 248 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:25.639 reconstruction that the some French team made and National Geographic 249 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:27.559 put on their cover, there's a reason that we have 250 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.960 people picketing out front of the museum saying King Tut 251 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:33.440 is back and he's black, because there are claims about 252 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:38.080 his racial and ethnic identity that are done in a 253 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:44.360 way that is serving certain populations. And if we're not 254 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:47.639 aware of that and why those things are happening, then 255 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:49.600 we need to step back and think about it. So 256 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:53.279 race and identity, these are things that I apply to 257 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:58.320 my classes, and that Ancient Egypt is very helpful because 258 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.919 it provides a means of talking about these things, but 259 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:03.960 a thousand years removed. 260 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:07.720 Kara also explained that even some well known Egyptian born 261 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.879 Egyptologists have been known to whitewash ancient Egyptians because of 262 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:17.440 just long entrenched colonialism and racism that identifies power with 263 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:22.720 European colonists, and that misrepresentation of Egyptians is tragic, and 264 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:25.600 she says, pretty frankly not accurate. 265 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.559 As I always say, if any of the Egyptians that 266 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:32.600 I know lived in Alabama in the fifties, they would 267 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:34.720 have sat at the back of the bus or have 268 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.320 reached a lot of or created a lot of problems 269 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:39.120 for themselves. 270 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.919 And how much of your work, your career as an Egyptologist, 271 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.159 is spent in Egypt, and how much is spent in 272 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:49.200 museums around the world and in classrooms here in la. 273 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:51.080 Oh Most of it is here. So I have been 274 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:55.120 to in Europe and the United States, probably twenty five 275 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.240 different museums. It's a lot of museum work. You go in, 276 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.399 you figure out what the curators, what your plan is 277 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:02.960 it is. You go into storage, you open up thetrains 278 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:07.120 if possible, you pull things out if possible. Vatrin is 279 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.480 a case in the museum viewing space. So it's yeah, 280 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.399 generally the word that Egyptologists use. It's a very old 281 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.000 fashioned word. 282 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.320 I thought it meant like a ceramic bucket, a guts 283 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:19.080 or a mummy case. 284 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.200 No, no, vitrine is essentially just a container. I think 285 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:24.559 probably a good Latin word. We could look it up. 286 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:29.120 Okay, So news to me, a vitrine is a glass 287 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:32.080 display case. Did you know that, Like, if you tried 288 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.440 to steal something from a museum, you would have to 289 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:37.440 bust a vitrine. And also don't do that. Now the 290 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.399 etymology for victrine is Latin means glass. It has nothing 291 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.519 to do with a latrine. And then I was like, 292 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:47.320 I wonder if there are vitreine latrines. So, with much hesitation, 293 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:51.840 I googled glass toilets and happened upon a public bathroom 294 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.600 in London, just in the middle of busy city foot 295 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:59.240 traffic that's made of one way glass so no one 296 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:04.759 can see but when you're inside you can still see 297 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.399 out like everyone's just walking around as if the walls 298 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:11.080 were clear. And it is a deeply anxiety provoking object. 299 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:13.840 And it's also rightfully listed as one of the six 300 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.600 most terrifying restrooms in the world by Cracked dot com. Okay, 301 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.279 back to it before I ask Kara about Egyptian metriarchs. 302 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:22.759 Let's get to coffins. 303 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:27.679 But I'm not an Egyptologist who's doing dirt archaeology, who's 304 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.960 opening up tombs, who's excavating in any way, and I 305 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.080 wouldn't know how to do it even if I was 306 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.240 given the opportunity. So leave that to the archaeologists. 307 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:37.919 And would you say that a lot of your work 308 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.799 deals with coffins with paperwork with I mean, when you 309 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.039 are looking at artifacts, what's your bread and butter artifact? Wise? 310 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:47.559 Oh, my bread and butter artifact is a coffin, which 311 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.279 is weird, right? And I start my I have a 312 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.000 public lecture that I've been doing around the country, a 313 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:57.840 variety of them, but one is the you know why 314 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.759 women don't rule the world and why they should? And 315 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.440 I start with me looking at a coffin, and I 316 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.319 say that I'm a coffin expert, and it always gets 317 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:09.759 a laugh because it's the weirdest thing that you can 318 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:12.000 possibly imagine to tell people. Oh, yeah, I'm an expert 319 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:14.119 in coffins. You put any Egyptian coffin in front of me, 320 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.720 and I'll know early eighteenth dynasty, late eighteenth dynasty, when 321 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.119 in the nineteenth if it's twenty aeth or twenty first, 322 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:23.680 and I can talk all about the details of these coffins. 323 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.319 It's strange and weird, and you're thinking to yourself, why 324 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.160 ever would someone devote their life to that? But if 325 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.960 you what was less wedding you went to. 326 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:34.160 Oh god, I feel like I go to like six 327 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.039 a year, but I went to one like three weeks ago. 328 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:39.200 And when the bride hits the aisle, you turn and 329 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.680 you see her dress, and you can make snap judgments 330 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:47.920 about everything about her socioeconomic level, her education level, her ethnicity, 331 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:54.240 her religion, her political perspectives. You can make snap judgments 332 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:58.359 about all kinds of things. Age. The age is staring 333 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.000 you in the face. But maybe she's had really good 334 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.319 classic surgery, and so you can make some other conclusions 335 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:06.200 about age. Oh no la so yeah, yeah, a location, right, 336 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:09.079 geographic regional identity. We could throw that in as well. 337 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.200 Hawaiian wedding is going to be very different from a 338 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.640 wedding at the Pierre and in New York. And this 339 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:16.440 is how I view coffins. So the coffins for me 340 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.440 are not oh, the land of the dead and some 341 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:21.680 sort of ritual and all of this religion and the 342 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.480 god Thoth and Anubis and mummification and all of that 343 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.039 is interesting, but it's been done to death, and it's 344 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.960 what Egyptologists have focused on the most. So I look 345 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:35.200 at these coffins as social documents, as ways of understanding 346 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.880 how the Egyptians themselves competed with the Joneses or the 347 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:44.759 pawn Ebbs, or how they displayed their place in the 348 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.480 world and maintained their social power thereby. 349 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.480 So they didn't have BMW's or Suzuki Samurais or Bentley's 350 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:56.039 back then. So it was like, that's cool, we'll just 351 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:58.920 wait until you're dead and then we'll scrutinize your coffin, buddy. 352 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.039 And so I lookt coffins to see if a person, well, 353 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:04.599 let me put it this way, when you're hanging out 354 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.279 with really rich people and they have conversations that go 355 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.079 over your head because the details of what the really 356 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:14.759 rich know about clothing or fabrics or real estate or 357 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.839 hedge funds, it goes over my head and I have 358 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.759 no idea what the hell they're talking about. Rich people 359 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:22.920 are going to have a different cultural milieu, and you 360 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.599 can see the same thing in a coffin. There are, 361 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.200 amongst the very rich the very wealthy, there are details 362 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:33.799 of separation that only the knowledgeable would have been able 363 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.279 to pick apart, critique, comment upon, and everyone else would 364 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.759 have been like ooh bluo ooh gold, ooh whatever. And 365 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.319 I like to see who's having a conversation with whom 366 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:49.160 and who are they displaying too. And I've applied this 367 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.480 to mummies as well. There's a particular time period in 368 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.240 ancient Egypt, the twenty first dynasty, when the elites of 369 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:01.559 Egypt tricked out their mummies, like you cannot really stuffed 370 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.920 underneath the facial tissue. They would separate the skin from 371 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:07.680 the muscle, make incisions like we wouldn't, almost in the 372 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.640 same places that we make plastic surgery incisions, and stuff. 373 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.039 Their face is full of this fatty sawdust material to 374 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.440 give them a lifelike sort of look. They put in 375 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:20.319 glass eyes. They attached false hair, sometimes real humans, sometimes yarn. 376 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.359 They would plaster the face and then paint it a 377 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.559 nice skin color, giving it a kind of rouge. If 378 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.200 it was a female, they put peppercorns in the nose 379 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:31.720 so it wouldn't collapse. They even stuffed arms and chests 380 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:36.200 when it got really, really extravagant. And I looked at 381 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.720 this and I'm like, that's the strangest thing, because a 382 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:43.839 mummy is meant to be hidden bound in these bandages 383 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.240 and not meant to be seen by prying eyes, and 384 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.119 yet they're pulling all of their wealth and putting it 385 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:53.640 into their bodies and making their bodies into kind of 386 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:56.799 standalone coffins. And I was able to conclude that we're 387 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:01.480 talking about a society of very wealthy and exclusive people 388 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:04.720 who are showing ten other people a dozen other people 389 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.359 the bodies of their dead family members and are able 390 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.039 to compete that way, keeping all of the unclean masses 391 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:16.640 out of the conversation entirely. And it's a competition that 392 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.240 didn't last very long. As soon as society changed a 393 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.599 little bit, then this over the top mummification stopped, and 394 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:24.839 people again started putting all of their wealth into the 395 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:28.880 coffins that contained the corpse on the outside rather than 396 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.680 the inside, which is a very human thing to do. 397 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:35.119 It's not a normal human thing to buy an amazingly 398 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:38.039 beautiful diamond ring and then never wear it, never show it. 399 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.480 Or maybe it's like MTV's Cribs. 400 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.880 I would compare it more to having a really nice 401 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.359