WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.159 --> 00:00:04.839 Hey, everybody, Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, comrades and friends. 2 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:06.440 I haven't said that in a while. I don't think. 3 00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:08.839 I don't really have an intro for you here. This 4 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:12.919 is more of a straight up audio version of something 5 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.960 I've written, an essay that has been published by the 6 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:21.359 very good people over at Marion West, which I recommend 7 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:24.359 you all go check out. I will leave a link 8 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:26.640 in the show notes, but I wanted to make sure 9 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:29.079 this message got out to as many people as possible 10 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:33.200 because given the I don't want to call it drama, 11 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:35.000 but I can't really think of anything else to call it. 12 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:39.200 That is kind of broken out in the history content 13 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:44.560 creation community of sorts that I find myself in, I 14 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:46.719 figured it would be time for me to say something 15 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:53.159 about it. And because it directly impacts me to a 16 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:55.479 much less degree than other people I know, thankfully, but 17 00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:57.679 it does impact me, and it has impacted a number 18 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:02.079 of people that I know. So without further ado, let's 19 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:11.799 get into it. I have for many years recommended Daryl 20 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:16.040 Cooper's hit podcast Martyrmaid to the relative handful of people 21 00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:18.760 kind enough to listen to my own show and read 22 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:23.959 my thoughts on various publications, including my own substack and 23 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:27.519 not to fully bury the lead. I still do recommend Martyrmaid, 24 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:31.439 though admittedly with a little more reservation than I might 25 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:36.480 otherwise have only a month earlier. The reason why there 26 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.439 is any reservation on my part can actually be summed 27 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.719 up in the following email I received just a few 28 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:48.159 days before writing this essay. You've previously recommended The Fear 29 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.079 and Loathing, a new Jerusalem series by the Martyr Maaide 30 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:54.040 podcast is a good resource for learning about the Israel 31 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:58.640 Palestine conflict. In light of Daryl Cooper's recent Holocaust denial, 32 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:04.439 would you still recommend that podcast? This is one among 33 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.040 several messages that I have been receiving in the past 34 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:10.759 week or two. I was not surprised when they started 35 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:13.840 coming in. I've been producing a historical podcast since twenty 36 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:17.319 nineteen and occupied a similar space at least until twenty 37 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:21.120 twenty one as Daryl Cooper for just as long, a 38 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:24.800 space that we might presumptuously call the Dan Carlin school 39 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:28.360 of podcasting. You know, the long form episodes lasting from 40 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:32.680 anywhere from two to six hours. In case people forgot, 41 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:37.319 I even have collaborated with Darryl once in twenty twenty, 42 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:39.319 and he and I had developed something of a friendly 43 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:46.319 relationship and occasionally but playfully antagonistic banter online. This friendly 44 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:49.599 relationship was actually solidified when he offered to fly me 45 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:53.599 back across the country to my hometown of Minneapolis in 46 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:56.120 the wake of George Floyd's death to be with my 47 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.400 mother while what they were calling neighborhood incursions were taking 48 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:04.120 place in my childhood homes immediate vicinity. For context, in 49 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:06.800 case some of you haven't heard me talk about this elsewhere, 50 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.319 I actually grew up five blocks from where George Floyd 51 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:12.199 was killed. I know exactly where it is. 52 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:13.759 Now. 53 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.960 Obviously, by then, when Daryl made this offer to me 54 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:21.360 to fly me out, I knew he and his work 55 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:24.000 were controversial. I had recommended it, but I knew that 56 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:29.000 he was considered controversial. But as best I could and 57 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:33.000 can tell, does that not matter less than someone who 58 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:36.560 would offer a kindness like he did that he had 59 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:42.319 no obligation to offer. Now, thanks to this experience, I 60 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.919 find myself as a historical podcaster with at least some 61 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:50.599 audience crossover with Cooper's in a bit of a strange space, 62 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:57.479 namely after Tucker Carlson's now infamous interview with Cooper has 63 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:02.759 been given time to gestate and be reacted again. I 64 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:06.680 had known that Daryl was going to discuss World War 65 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:09.800 Two from the German perspective for some time at that 66 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.879 point when that interview went up, and while I thought 67 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:16.000 it was a potentially interesting and illuminating angle on which 68 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:19.160 to tackle our world's most infamous conflict, one that I'm 69 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:23.160 covering myself at least the corners of it, I immediately knew 70 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.759 this would not go over smoothly whenever it happened. Fast 71 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:31.680 forward to September two, twenty twenty four. It did, indeed happen, 72 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:35.639 and not in a way that I believe Daryl necessarily 73 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:41.040 wanted or was fully prepared for, at least in the 74 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:45.800 Free Press on September fifth, only three days later, Barry 75 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.360 Weiss referred to Cooper as a quote unquote pseudohistorian with 76 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:52.759 quote a disgust toward Judaism that has inspired him to 77 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:57.680 turn Hitler into a misunderstood figure unquote. On the same 78 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:01.639 day and in the same publication, so Rabbamari wrote that 79 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:04.519 Cooper was someone who had long since quote made known 80 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:07.240 his nutty views about the Jews, as well as his 81 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.519 sympathy for the Third Reich unquote, and linked him to 82 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:14.759 what he called the barbarian rite catch you name, regardless 83 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:18.199 of what you think, which enjoys membership of figures and 84 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:21.839 groups as diverse and unlikable as Nick fuentes Is, Grouper's 85 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:27.279 movement and Ray science peddlers like Steve Sailor. Similarly, and 86 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:31.600 perhaps most harshly, historian Neil Ferguson called Cooper quote a 87 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.879 nasty little Nazi apologist unquote that engages in quote unquote 88 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:42.720 anti history. Joshua Trevigno, writing in Armas, didn't even directly 89 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:46.720 reference Cooper or Carlson, but said very plainly that he 90 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.680 believed we were living through end quote abrupt resurgence of 91 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:54.879 anti Semitism unquote, relating to quote the generation that experienced 92 00:05:54.879 --> 00:06:00.639 anti Semitism's most horrific episode in the Holocaust being mostly gone. 93 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.279 Constantine Kissin wrote on his substack that this whole affair 94 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.160 confirmed his thesis on a new quote unquote woke right, 95 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:12.519 while referring to Cooper's interview as quote so historically illiterate 96 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:15.040 that every major claim he made was debunked on ex 97 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:18.920 itself within hours, with community notes and in articles published 98 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:24.720 by prominent historians. Some criticisms were less sweeping, but no 99 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:29.040 less seemingly damning, including Winston Churchill scholar Andreas Correas tweeting 100 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.800 that quote Cooper knows nothing about Winston Churchill unquote, followed 101 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:36.079 by several points of refutation against some of Cooper's subsequent claims. 102 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.319 Even the White House chimed in, calling the interview quote 103 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:46.439 unquote Nazi propaganda that was quote disgusting and a sadistic insult. 104 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:47.439 Quote. 105 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:53.600 So with all that context in mind, it has become 106 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.959 quite obvious that Darrell's claims are full of interpretations that 107 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.120 many reputable historians of the Second World War, Winston Churchill 108 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.560 and the Third Reich and the Holocaust would consider inaccurate, 109 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:11.480 and that his use of sources is questionable at best. Now, 110 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.439 I still consider Daryl a friend, and I do not 111 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:19.240 believe that he is some rank bigot like some of 112 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.959 his detractors have claimed. And I do not even believe 113 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.959 that we are living through some era of Hitler reappraisal 114 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.399 just because Darryl is being lumped in with the insanity, 115 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:34.040 the objective insanity that is Candice Owens's recent obsession with 116 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:35.279 the Francis. 117 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:36.759 Or whatever it is that she was talking about. 118 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.360 However, I also believe that it is not unreasonable for 119 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.279 someone who does not know him, or especially is not 120 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:48.160 familiar with his previous work, as many of his critics 121 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.160 have stated about themselves admitted might be a better way 122 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.920 of putting it, it's not unreasonable for people like that 123 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.680 to feel differently. And this was thanks to how he 124 00:07:56.759 --> 00:08:00.399 presented his claims both on Tucker Carlson's show and in 125 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:05.000 his immediate response following. He has since added more clarity 126 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.319 to his approach on the Martyr Made substack, which is 127 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:12.360 worth reading for a fuller picture. However, his initial claims 128 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:15.079 are always going to be his first impression on this 129 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:20.160 particular topic, and thus they require challenging, especially on their 130 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:25.519 merits and more importantly, on their sourcing. This will help 131 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.600 provide the necessary context or grain of salt, however you 132 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.279 want to look at it for when he actually finishes 133 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.960 and releases the work that he has now officially announced. 134 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:37.600 To begin. 135 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:41.480 While the interpretations of Winston Churchill's quality as a leader 136 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.960 are certainly up for debate, some of Cooper's significant contentions 137 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:48.799 that arose in his follow up thread to the interview 138 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:52.120 on X have been directly refuted by scholars of the 139 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:57.240 Old Lion and the Second World War. One relatively minor 140 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:00.600 example was Cooper's claim that Churchill quote unquote in insisted 141 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.120 on the use of mustard gas on the quote unquote 142 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.480 uncivilized tribes of Iraq, which in nineteen nineteen to nineteen 143 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:12.000 twenty the British Empire was at work pacifying. The problem 144 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:16.480 is that this quote is inaccurate. Now, Churchill did indeed 145 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.240 refer to Iraqi tribes as uncivilized and in need of gasing, 146 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.519 but in the departmental minutes presented by the International Churchill 147 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:29.679 Society revealed that Churchill advocated for the use of lacrymatory. 148 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.519 Gas, that is, tear gas, and. 149 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:34.639 That quote it is not necessary to use only the 150 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:40.519 most deadly gases un quote. This is a fundamental error 151 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:44.159 of context that while small harms the overall picture attempting 152 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:47.720 to be painted of Churchill as someone possessed with bloodthirstiness, 153 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:53.360 are there not better examples? Well, Cooper seems to believe so, 154 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:59.480 and yet those examples have their own issues in explaining 155 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:03.240 how wretched conditions became in Germany during and especially after 156 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.879 the First World War, which did indeed contribute to the 157 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.559 conditions that would allow for such a reactionary populist movement 158 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:14.039 as national socialism to gain ground. Cooper also claimed that 159 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:17.840 this was due to a long, unprecedented tactic of starving 160 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:22.600 out Germany's civilians with naval blockades. Now, he is right 161 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.879 to point out that quote unquote, up to seven hundred 162 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:29.320 and fifty thousand Germans would starve to death, and scholars 163 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.399 agree typically that the number is likely lower, but Daryl's 164 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:38.519 phrasing is appropriately careful here. But it's basically reasonable to 165 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:41.840 say that hundreds of thousands of Germans starved to death 166 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:47.360 thanks to blockade. However, Cooper's framing is wrong with his 167 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:50.919 use of Churchill's explanation that quote the blockade treated the 168 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:53.440 whole of Germany as if it were a beleaguered fortress 169 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:57.879 and avowedly sought to starve the whole population unquote, serving 170 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.639 as evidence for the then First Lord of the Admiralty's 171 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:05.320 unique cruelty. Cooper was not necessarily incorrect in pointing out 172 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.799 that this tactic was problematic at best, But the problem 173 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:14.200 is that this tactic was not unique Germany's own infamous 174 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:18.480 U boat campaign, which frequently sank unaligned and civilian ships, 175 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:22.519 was in response to the blockade, but its goal was 176 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:26.039 also to starve out the British before the blockade devastated 177 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:30.480 Germany the way it ultimately did. Therefore, the only thing 178 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:32.799 that makes Britain appear more like a villain in this 179 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:35.879 case is the fact that they won World War One 180 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:42.399 and Germany lost. In other words, had Germany won, there 181 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:46.440 would be people doing revisionism, likely making the opposite claim, 182 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:50.919 which ultimately reveals equally little about moral complicity, except that 183 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:56.399 everyone involved in warfare is complicit in their intentions. Now 184 00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:59.559 likely anticipating this, Cooper dismissed the argument that quote unquote 185 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.440 wars he had in order to make his broader point 186 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:06.480 that Churchill and the British were uniquely nefarious in this regard, 187 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.600 by claiming that quote for two and a half centuries, 188 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.480 Europeans had refrained from tactics like mass starvation and other 189 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.279 means of targeting civilian populations when they fought each other. 190 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:21.519 This is likely in reference to the modernizing efforts taken 191 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.600 up by the Prussian military in the mid seventeenth century, 192 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:29.159 in which Elector Frederick William of Brandenburg deemphasized the use 193 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:34.360 of mercenary soldiers and tried to professionalize the military. According 194 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:39.399 to historian HW Coch, quote one innovation finding general approval 195 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.559 was the introduction of severe discipline in the army, in 196 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.799 which quote any act of plundering would be punished by hanging, 197 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.039 and quote any officer who physically attacked a civilian will 198 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.200 be stripped of his rank for a year and have 199 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:57.879 to carry the musket as a common soldier. This frames 200 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:02.039 the Prussian military and thus early modern European military standards 201 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:06.200 as being both noble and disciplined, too morally upstanding to 202 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.879 engage in anything resembling a war crime, or, more to 203 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:13.720 the point, a hunger blockade. Now noble as this was. 204 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:18.120 Naval blockades occurred in Europe well after this time, the 205 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.879 one I just spoke of, and well before the British 206 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.279 blockade of Germany during World War One, to say nothing 207 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:28.879 of Germany's aforementioned unrestricted U boat warfare. Napoleon engaged in 208 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.559 wartime blockades of Britain known as the Continental System, in 209 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:36.519 which English industries were harmed in the process. While one 210 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:39.480 can quibble with the intent behind such blockades, being different, 211 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:42.759 It's simply not accurate to claim that these blockades were 212 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.320 not designed to put pressure on warring nations civilian populations, 213 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:51.360 whether through starvation or unemployment. In addition, during the Franco 214 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:54.639 Prussian War of eighteen seventy, the siege of Paris by 215 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.039 Prussian forces was in essence a blockade against the city, 216 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:02.039 resulting in a massive death to ward of civilians. According 217 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:05.840 to historian Jeffrey warrou quote, in three weeks of firing, 218 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.879 the German gunners that hit hospitals, schools, churches, prisons and 219 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:13.000 apartment houses, but were still far behind the death toll 220 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.120 wrought by cold and hunger, which were killing three thousand 221 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:23.440 to four thousand Parisians every week in January. The blockade 222 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:25.840 against Germany by Great Britain in the First World War 223 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.360 was no doubt significant in its effects and arguably cruelty. 224 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:32.039 I don't think that that can necessarily be disputed, at 225 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.440 least not that much. But it was by no means 226 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:39.879 unprecedented in European history. In fact, to my eyes, it 227 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:45.399 kind of seems like the norm the framing cooper engaged 228 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.879 in also neglected to reckon with the German airship bombing 229 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.600 campaigns of the First World War against England, specifically, which 230 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.159 began before the British blockade of Germany and Austria Hungary 231 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.480 started this framing involving Germany's late war misery. We also 232 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.440 neglected one of the largest blind spots in the history 233 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.600 of the First World War and its effects. And I 234 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:08.320 don't necessarily blame Darryl for missing this because a lot 235 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:10.559 of people have missed it, and it gives me a 236 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:13.200 chance to sort of gloat a little about my own 237 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.159 work that I've done on this very subject, which was 238 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.759 ultimately the devastation wrought by the so called Spanish Flu. 239 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:24.840 If a recall, the Spanish Flu ultimately killed German soldiers 240 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.120 at far higher rates than British or French troops. It 241 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.960 arguably cost them the war and its effects in Germany 242 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:36.039 at home even correlated with later support for the National Socialists, 243 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:38.879 as shown by the scholar Andrew Price Smith in his 244 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:44.240 excellent book Contation and Chaos. These areas of neglect and 245 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:48.519 others just sort of demonstrate a deeper issue with Cooper's 246 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:54.960 initial framing, a skewed perception of historical agency in favor 247 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:58.440 of motivated reasoning, in which Churchill the chief villain of 248 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.840 his framing was given full agency, and later on Adolf Hitler, 249 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:07.440 his nemesis, was given none. We can see this with 250 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.240 how Cooper explained the relationship between Churchill and Hitler as 251 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:14.120 late as nineteen thirty seven, which he characterized as quote 252 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.879 unquote not hostile because Churchill said, of the dictator quote 253 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:20.759 those who have met Hitler face to face have found 254 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:25.559 a highly competent, cool, well informed functionary with an agreeable manner, 255 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.320 a disarming smile, and few have been unaffected by a 256 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:35.600 subtle personal magnetism. Now this is actually a selective quotation, 257 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:39.799 and one likely derived from the paleoconservative writer Pat Buchanan 258 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:42.840 in his own two thousand and eight revisionist book Churchill, 259 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.440 Hitler and the quote unquote Unnecessary War, How Britain lost 260 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.799 its empire in the West lost the World, which Cooper 261 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.559 has since happily admitted is one of his sources. It's 262 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.879 also worth pointing out that Darryl has since done some 263 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:01.000 deeper digging into his sources and has admitted that this 264 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.279 quote was not put in the proper context when he 265 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.799 found it and used it, so credit where credits due, 266 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.480 of course, but the full context of this quote in 267 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:14.880 Buchanan's book was missing from his account, in which Churchill 268 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.640 was expressing, as Scott Manning puts it, quote awe and 269 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:22.839 caution unquote, not reverence or respect. Bu canon claim that 270 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:25.279 Churchill ended his analysis of the Fure on a quote 271 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:28.279 unquote hopeful note when nothing could be further from the truth. 272 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.680 Churchill ended his essay with a note of caution, if 273 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.440 not outright fear, for what Hitler's Germany was coming to 274 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:41.440 mean for Europe. As Churchill wrote, quote, the great wheels 275 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.119 revolve the rifles, the canon, the tanks, the shot and shells, 276 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:49.880 the air bombs, the poison gas cylinders, the aeroplanes, the submarines, 277 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:52.400 and now the beginnings of a fleet flow in ever 278 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.160 broadening streams from the already largely war mobilized arsenals and 279 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:03.079 factories of Germany. Quote now, was this not hostile? Well, 280 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.920 perhaps not, but it was certainly not friendly. And letting 281 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:13.319 not hostile do the heavy lifting certainly implies such now. 282 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.759 This led to Cooper's implication that Churchill's anti Semitism was 283 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:20.440 little different than Hitler's, which he accomplishes by claiming that, quote, 284 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:26.119 like Hitler, Churchill blamed Jews for communism. While it certainly 285 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:29.000 is true that Churchill trafficked in what we would today 286 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.279 consider anti semitism once writing that quote, they have been 287 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:36.960 partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer unquote, 288 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.599 this made him a little different than many world leaders 289 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:42.720 at the time, especially in the West. As you guys 290 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:45.279 might remember, I've made the case that Franklin Roosevelt was 291 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:49.839 a little different. However, as Churchill scholar Andreas Careis explains, 292 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:54.319 Churchill's contention quote was that though many many Bolsheviks were Jews, 293 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:59.680 few Jews were Bolsheviks unquote. Though certainly politically incorrect to 294 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.160 such sweeping statements today, Churchill also stated that quote, some 295 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.599 people like Jews and some do not, but a not 296 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.279 thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are, beyond 297 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:12.599 all question, the most formidable and most remarkable race that 298 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:19.240 has ever appeared in the world. Frankly, this sounds remarkably 299 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.799 unlike Hitler's quote from around that same time, where he 300 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:27.200 called Jews a quote race tuberculosis of the people's quote. 301 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.119 Churchill's feelings on the Jews visa VI. Hitler's treatment of 302 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:37.119 them also contradicts any idea or even implication that Hitler 303 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.279 did not have any problems with him or England with 304 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.400 how he reacted to what ultimately was a snub from 305 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:49.559 Churchill over the so called Jewish question. In August of 306 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.559 nineteen thirty two, he ran into Hitler's press secretary Ernst 307 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.039 Putzi Hunpstengel, who asked if Churchill would meet with Hitler. 308 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.480 In response, Churchill stated, quote, why is her chief so 309 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:03.720 violent about the Jews? I can quite understand being angry 310 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.839 with Jews who have done wrong or who are against 311 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.400 the country, and I understand resisting them if they try 312 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.480 to monopolize power in any walk of life. But what 313 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:13.680 is the sense of being against a man simply because 314 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:18.640 of his birth quote? In response to Churchill's challenge, Hitler 315 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.880 refused to meet with him that day, and Churchill later 316 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.920 stated that quote Hitler then lost his only chance of 317 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:28.079 meeting with me later on, when he was all powerful. 318 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.119 I was to receive several invitations from him, but by 319 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:36.319 that time a lot had happened, and I excused myself. Now, 320 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.960 Cooper's implication of Winston Churchill as an anti Semite of 321 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.279 similar caliber as Hitler was self evidently problematic. Thanks to hindsight, 322 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.839 but it is also demonstrable of selective application of historical agency. 323 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:51.720 To bring that up again, the problem is that this 324 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.640 appeared to be applying agency based on, like I was saying, 325 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:58.319 motivated reasoning, rather than a more coherent view of human 326 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:02.960 motivation and interaction. Churchill and Hitler made their own choices, 327 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.920 both in response to one another and independent of one another. 328 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:10.079 It is a deterministic fallacy to believe, as Cooper seemed 329 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.119 to be doing in his assessment, that Hitler was pushed 330 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:15.680 into the choices that he made by the choices that 331 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:19.359 Churchill made. That is, that Churchill possessed all the agency 332 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.000 in the world and that Hitler possessed none, or at 333 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:27.119 least significantly less. This framing can be seen from Cooper's 334 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.559 original claim in the Carlson interview that quote Churchill wanted 335 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.599 a war, he wanted to fight Germany unquote, while claiming 336 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.200 in his follow up thread that quote Hitler said. 337 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:37.599 He did not want war unquote. 338 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:42.160 Now, taking the notoriously dishonest Hitler at his word, especially 339 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.799 with the benefit of hindsight, is a curious choice. But again, 340 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.640 the real point is that it suggests motivated reasoning at 341 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:54.319 work rather than an examination of the evidence from the history, 342 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.000 it's quite clear that Hitler wanted war, but just not 343 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:03.400 with Britain, at least not right away. Churchill also likely 344 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.160 wanted war, but as we have seen, it was thanks 345 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:09.240 to a growing distrust of the then obviously dishonest dictator's 346 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:14.559 motives and openly admitted desire for more Laban's realm. What 347 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.279 Churchill understood then, just as many of us more clearly 348 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:22.680 understand now, is that a push for territorial acquisition is 349 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:27.359 never going to be peaceful, not really, especially when it 350 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:31.559 involves people that you frequently and loudly designated as undesirable 351 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:33.759 at best and subhuman at worst. 352 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:35.680 One might point to the. 353 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:39.359 Fact that the head Nazi racial theorist Alfred Rosenberg didn't 354 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:42.200 speak very ill of the Slavic peoples to the east, 355 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:46.559 but he was constantly made fun of and criticized for 356 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.680 that view by who else, Adolf Hitler. Now, you could 357 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.039 be your average aristocratic anti Semite like Churchill supposedly was, 358 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:58.160 and still understand the potential for monstrous consequences at appeasing 359 00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:03.440 such a regime's actions. However, according to Cooper, the British 360 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.279 essentially involving themselves in the affairs of Poland after it 361 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.079 was invaded and ripped apart by Europe's reigning totalitarian forces 362 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:13.759 that is Nazism and Stalinism. That was their biggest crime. 363 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.799 This is because by the British guaranteeing war that is 364 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.160 World War this was really what placed the crosshairs on 365 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:25.720 the backs of Jews and millions of other civilians in 366 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:31.160 the Eastern territories. It does not take the responsibility off 367 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:33.200 of Hitler for doing so, and Cooper does not make 368 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.319 that argument. He actually makes it very clear was Hitler's responsibility, 369 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:40.279 But he still makes a causal claim, a deterministic claim 370 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.920 that had it not been for the behavior of Winston Churchill, 371 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:48.920 none of that would have happened. By linking Britain's involvement 372 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.279 in churchills supposed bloodthirstiness to how the Second World War 373 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:56.119 and thus the Holocaust turned out in the East, Cooper 374 00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:59.279 revealed not just another in my opinion, major blind spot 375 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:02.480 in the history of the conflict, but also let himself 376 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:05.279 get sucked into the most controversial part of his analysis. 377 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:13.279 In the interview with Carlson, Cooper claimed the following, you. 378 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:18.759 Know Germany, look, they put themselves into a position, and 379 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:21.240 Adolf Hitler is chiefly responsible for this, but his old 380 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.839 regime is responsible for it that when they went into 381 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:28.559 the East in nineteen forty one, they launched a war 382 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:33.599 where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions 383 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.920 and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners 384 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:40.960 and so forth that they were going to have to handle. 385 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.519 They went in with no plan for that, and they 386 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.640 just threw these people into camps and millions of people 387 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:47.519 ended up dead there. 388 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:47.839 You know, you. 389 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:53.279 Have like letters as early as July August nineteen forty 390 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.119 one from commandants of these makeshift camps that they're setting 391 00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.279 up for these millions of people who were surrendering or 392 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:02.359 people that round it up and there, so it's two 393 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:05.759 months after month or two after Barbara Rooscha was launched, 394 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.960 and they're writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, 395 00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:12.920 we can't feed these people. We don't have the food 396 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.279 to feed these people. And one of them actually says, 397 00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:19.000 rather than wait for them all to slowly starve this winter, 398 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:21.640 wouldn't it be more humane to just finish them off 399 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.920 quickly now? And so this is like two months into 400 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:29.319 the invasion, right, and like my view, on this. You know, 401 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:33.279