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<v Speaker 1>It is Ryan here and I have a question for you.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you do when you win?

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<v Speaker 5>Like?

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<v Speaker 6>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 6>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 6>written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every

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<v Speaker 6>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 6>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

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<v Speaker 6>journalist and author Dan Zufanski.

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<v Speaker 5>Good Evening. The year was nineteen sixty five. The Beatles,

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<v Speaker 5>Elvis Presley and the Righteous Brothers filled the airwaves. Television

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<v Speaker 5>shows like the Adventures of Oz and Harriet and The

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<v Speaker 5>Andy Griffith Show mirrored the innocence of life in the

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<v Speaker 5>dusty city of Tucson, Arizona. But the sun baked desert

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<v Speaker 5>surrounding Tucson was hiding a sinister secret. A psychopath named

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<v Speaker 5>Charles Schmidt, later nicknamed the Pied Piper of Tucson by

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<v Speaker 5>Life magazine, would steal that innocence away, along with the

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<v Speaker 5>lives of three beautiful teenage girls. In this first hand account,

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<v Speaker 5>written in nineteen sixty seven, Richard Bruns shares the evolution

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<v Speaker 5>of his friendship with Schmidt, the details of getting involved

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<v Speaker 5>way in over his head, and how he finally summoned

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<v Speaker 5>the courage to blow the whistle and the deadly rampage

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<v Speaker 5>that shocked the nation and changed the city of Tucson forever.

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<v Speaker 5>The book they were featuring this evening is I a Squealer,

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<v Speaker 5>The Insider's account of the Pied Piper of Tucson Murders,

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<v Speaker 5>with my special guests, journalist and author Lisa Espitch. Welcome

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<v Speaker 5>to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing

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<v Speaker 5>to this interview.

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<v Speaker 2>Lisa Spitch, Hi, Dan, thank you for inviting me on.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you very much, very very interesting story. Indeed, first off,

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<v Speaker 5>we spoke earlier and tell us about the genesis of

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<v Speaker 5>this book, how it came to be that this book

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<v Speaker 5>from nineteen sixty seven. Tell us was it originally published,

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<v Speaker 5>tell us what you did, what was the discovery was,

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<v Speaker 5>and how it came to be this book I a Squealer.

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<v Speaker 2>My father in nineteen sixty seven wrote the book. He

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<v Speaker 2>was the star witness for the prosecution. He's the one

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<v Speaker 2>that blew the whistle on the case. And he was

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<v Speaker 2>a friend of Schmid and he wrote the story to

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<v Speaker 2>clarify his side of the story because he was very

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<v Speaker 2>involved at the time he was twenty years old, didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really know what to do with it. Once he was

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<v Speaker 2>done writing it, really was ready to move forward with

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<v Speaker 2>his life, and so it got boxed away. Forty years later,

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<v Speaker 2>which was about ten years ago, my sisters and I

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<v Speaker 2>were at my mother's home and we were going through

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<v Speaker 2>old photos and my mother had us going through old

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<v Speaker 2>boxes of school papers and art from when we were kids,

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<v Speaker 2>and my sister pulled out a bound manuscript and my

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<v Speaker 2>mother said, oh, that's the story your father wrote about

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<v Speaker 2>the Charles Schmid cases. Well, we weren't aware that he

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<v Speaker 2>ever wrote anything about it. We also knew very little

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<v Speaker 2>about the cases because it's not something that was really

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<v Speaker 2>that my parents talked to us about that as we

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<v Speaker 2>were growing up. So I was very intrigued. I took

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<v Speaker 2>it home and read it right away and was really

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<v Speaker 2>overcome with the story, realizing everything that my father had

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<v Speaker 2>gone through and how he was so much more involved

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<v Speaker 2>with Schmid and these cases than I ever knew. And

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<v Speaker 2>I really thought the way he wrote his story was beautiful,

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<v Speaker 2>just how he wrote, and I went to him with

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<v Speaker 2>it and, you know, shared with him that we had

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<v Speaker 2>the book and that I had read it. I think

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<v Speaker 2>he thought by now the book had completely disappeared forty

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<v Speaker 2>years later. You know, you assume things just get thrown out,

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<v Speaker 2>and he really just wanted it back. At that time.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he was surprised that it still existed and

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<v Speaker 2>surprised that I had just read it, and so I

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<v Speaker 2>gave it back to him, and more time passed. Eventually

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<v Speaker 2>it was brought up again, and I really my two

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<v Speaker 2>other sisters had never gotten a chance to read the book,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I wanted them to be able to read it.

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<v Speaker 2>But he said at that time that he couldn't find it.

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<v Speaker 2>He didn't know what he did with it. He may

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<v Speaker 2>have thrown it out. So we were pretty devastated because

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<v Speaker 2>this was a piece of his history that could never

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<v Speaker 2>be retrieved again. And so but moved forward. And then

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty fourteen we were helping him to move and

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<v Speaker 2>my sister found the manuscript and so he allowed me

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<v Speaker 2>to take it back and hold on to it. And

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<v Speaker 2>I mentioned to him again that you know, you really

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<v Speaker 2>should share your story with the world. I mean, this

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<v Speaker 2>is your side that's never been shared before. And he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have any interest in doing that. He didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to open this all back up, But then recently, over

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<v Speaker 2>the past couple of years, the story kept coming to

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<v Speaker 2>the surface. Local media did a few stories on the

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<v Speaker 2>Charle Schmid cases again, which kind of brought it back up.

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<v Speaker 2>And then most recently, the Discovery Channel did on a

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<v Speaker 2>crime the ID on Crime or Crime on ID. They

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<v Speaker 2>did a story on the Pipe Piper and of Tucson,

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<v Speaker 2>and my dad was really frustrated at that episode because

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<v Speaker 2>they portrayed him in such an over the top way,

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<v Speaker 2>and they also, according to my dad, you know, some

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<v Speaker 2>of the facts were just almost fabricated. There were things

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<v Speaker 2>that they talked about that just didn't happen. And I

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<v Speaker 2>said to him, you know, again, you have your story

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<v Speaker 2>available to share. If anyone's interested in this, your side

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<v Speaker 2>should be out there with all the other resources, and

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<v Speaker 2>he finally agreed. And so at that point I had

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<v Speaker 2>already written my own book in twenty ten, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I had the connections available to get it out there,

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<v Speaker 2>and so Twin Feather Publishing here in Tucson published it.

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<v Speaker 2>It released on March twentieth of this year, and so

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<v Speaker 2>it's been an exciting process.

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<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, I'm no doubt. Now you talk a little bit

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<v Speaker 5>about Tucson at that time in the eighties, and maybe

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<v Speaker 5>you could tell us a little bit about the area

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<v Speaker 5>that we're talking about, the neighborhood or the area of

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<v Speaker 5>Tucson we're talking about, but also your father tell us

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<v Speaker 5>when this story goes on, what is your age or

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<v Speaker 5>your father before we talk about how he met his

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<v Speaker 5>friend Charles Schmid.

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<v Speaker 2>So you mean in the sixties when he was here

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<v Speaker 2>before this all started.

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<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, yeah, Okay, so.

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<v Speaker 2>Here in Tucson. You know, Tucson was not a huge

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<v Speaker 2>city at that point. It really would be considered sort

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<v Speaker 2>of an old dust town. It wasn't very big and

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<v Speaker 2>there wasn't a lot for kids to do. My father

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<v Speaker 2>was thirteen when he moved out here with his family

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<v Speaker 2>from Columbus, Ohio, and so the area that we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about there. I don't know what the actual number of

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<v Speaker 2>people living in Tucson at that time was, but it

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<v Speaker 2>certainly was not a big city, and you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>was very much if you think of an innocent town.

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<v Speaker 2>It reminds me of you know you mentioned at the beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like the show, the Andy Griffith Show, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>something like that, sort of an old dusty town where

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it was very innocent and there wasn't a

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<v Speaker 2>whole lot going on.

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<v Speaker 5>When you talk about your father at that time, what

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<v Speaker 5>was he really like in terms of how experienced or

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<v Speaker 5>inclined to be a bad guy or a good guy.

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<v Speaker 5>What was he really like at that time?

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<v Speaker 2>So he had met Charles Schmid at the age of fifteen,

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<v Speaker 2>he wasn't a real experienced kid. Now I do know

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<v Speaker 2>that he had. He met Charles Schmid right after he

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<v Speaker 2>had gotten out of a reform school, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>really sent to the reform school because he was just

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<v Speaker 2>sort of unruly. He was just starting to get in trouble.

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<v Speaker 2>Nothing serious, but at that time, you know, his parents

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<v Speaker 2>felt like that was, you know, the right thing to do.

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<v Speaker 2>He got sent to a reform school to just sort

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<v Speaker 2>of get his life streightened out, and so he'd had

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<v Speaker 2>a rebellious side definitely when he got out of reform school.

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<v Speaker 2>It was shortly after that that he met Charles Schmid.

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<v Speaker 2>So I would say that my dad at that time

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<v Speaker 2>was fairly innocent in the fact that what he was

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<v Speaker 2>getting in trouble for was nothing that you would consider

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<v Speaker 2>really serious. But he definitely had a rebellious side that

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<v Speaker 2>his parents maybe struggled a little bit with.

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<v Speaker 5>And the impression that your father had and the basically

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<v Speaker 5>the persona that people knew of Charles Schmidt was what

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<v Speaker 5>at that time. You talk about the transformation years later,

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<v Speaker 5>a few shorts years later, but at that time, what

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<v Speaker 5>was he like? What was the impression that other people

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<v Speaker 5>and young people had of him, and even parents had

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<v Speaker 5>of Charles Schmid.

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<v Speaker 2>So my father was fifteen when he met Charles Schmid.

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<v Speaker 2>Charles Schmid was eighteen, so he was three years older

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<v Speaker 2>than my father, and Charles Schmid had dropped out of school,

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<v Speaker 2>so he was a grown man at that point, but

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<v Speaker 2>he really still hung out with high schoolers and teenagers.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a very big following here in Tucson, Charles

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<v Speaker 2>Schmid did when my father first met him. He came

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<v Speaker 2>from a wealthy family. He was adopted that came from

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<v Speaker 2>a very wealthy family that owned a nursing home here

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<v Speaker 2>in town, and they gave Charles Schmid pretty much everything

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted. He had a beautiful, brand new convertible car.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a three hundred dollars a month allowance at

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<v Speaker 2>that time, which in nineteen sixty four three hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot of money, and so he had all

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00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.399
<v Speaker 2>of this money to spend and to show off, and

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<v Speaker 2>he's threw parties and he always had girls around. He

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<v Speaker 2>was a very athletic guy. He was a gymnast in

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<v Speaker 2>high school before he had dropped out, and a very

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<v Speaker 2>successful gymnast that led Tucson High School into a championship.

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<v Speaker 2>And he was a good looking guy, very charismatic. He

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<v Speaker 2>was very short, he was five to three, which for

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a man is quite short, but very good

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<v Speaker 2>looking with very piercing eyes. And the girls just really

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<v Speaker 2>were attracted to him, and there was something just very

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<v Speaker 2>charismatic about him. And from what my father explains, parents

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<v Speaker 2>really liked Charles Schmid too. He had this again very

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<v Speaker 2>charismatic and also parents trusted him. They kind of looked

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<v Speaker 2>to him as a role mom for their kids, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it was very interesting dynamic between all of the

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<v Speaker 2>teenagers and him. Even though he was older, they very

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00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:15.759
<v Speaker 2>much followed him and looked up to him. And so

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<v Speaker 2>when my father met him and Charles Schmid started to

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<v Speaker 2>befriend him, you know, I can see why my father

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00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.159
<v Speaker 2>was drawn to that friendship because, you know, here's somebody

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<v Speaker 2>who is much older with girls all around, you know,

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00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:33.480
<v Speaker 2>always at parties, gorgeous car and so it was a

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00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.519
<v Speaker 2>great friend in my dad's view to have and hang

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<v Speaker 2>out with.

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<v Speaker 5>You talk about that they originally met through a person.

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<v Speaker 5>Did you call Paul G? Just last name G? And

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<v Speaker 5>that would nearly end this story five years before you

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00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:56.080
<v Speaker 5>talk about who Paul G was and his earlier background,

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00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.879
<v Speaker 5>not so earlier background. What was Paul G involved with

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00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:01.440
<v Speaker 5>the police force.

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<v Speaker 2>So Paul when he was younger, and my father met

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00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Paul at the reform school that my father was at.

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00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:15.679
<v Speaker 2>But Paul had been up in a mountain area where

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00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.080
<v Speaker 2>people would hang out with water and stuff like that,

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00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.440
<v Speaker 2>and him and another friend, and I believe Paul was

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<v Speaker 2>about the same age as Charles Schmid, so at that

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00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.080
<v Speaker 2>time when this happened, he would have been about fifteen.

255
00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:32.600
<v Speaker 2>And him and another guy decided that they wanted to

256
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.759
<v Speaker 2>rob somebody at gunpoint to get their money, and so

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00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:41.279
<v Speaker 2>they stopped a car on the road there wasn't any

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00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.159
<v Speaker 2>other cars around, and to rob this man who was

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00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:49.799
<v Speaker 2>driving the car. Somehow, in the midst of that, the gun,

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<v Speaker 2>my understanding is, accidentally went off and killed this man.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I don't think that they went into it

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00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.200
<v Speaker 2>intending to kill him, but they did end up killing

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00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.679
<v Speaker 2>this man and so it was a bungled robbery and

264
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.240
<v Speaker 2>ended up a murder. He was under age and so

265
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:11.320
<v Speaker 2>he definitely did jail time for it. But that was

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00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:13.559
<v Speaker 2>his background. Paul g.

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00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.440
<v Speaker 5>You have that the his character was and like you say,

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00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.360
<v Speaker 5>you talk about in this that your father noticed this

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00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:28.000
<v Speaker 5>real decline in his behavior and his character and some

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00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.320
<v Speaker 5>of the things that he admired about him weren't there

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00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:35.879
<v Speaker 5>a few years later, but you talk about it. He

272
00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:40.600
<v Speaker 5>had these privileges from his parents, but then their parents' business,

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00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:46.639
<v Speaker 5>this nursing home, fell on bad economic times. So what

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00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.159
<v Speaker 5>happens in terms of his character and his status when

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<v Speaker 5>you know this allowance and all these perks are no more.

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00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:01.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so yes, they they're nursing him. Nursing home went

277
00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:05.440
<v Speaker 2>into foreclosure and they ended up with a different nursing

278
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.279
<v Speaker 2>home across town, but much more lower scale, not as

279
00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:11.759
<v Speaker 2>so they were not as well off anymore. The one

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00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.279
<v Speaker 2>thing that Charles Schmid did have at that new home

281
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:17.160
<v Speaker 2>that they moved into is there was a small cottage

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00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.200
<v Speaker 2>home on the property, and so Charles Schmid got his

283
00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:22.920
<v Speaker 2>own house and so he was able to kind of

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00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.519
<v Speaker 2>throw his own parties and be his own man without

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00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.559
<v Speaker 2>his parents in the same home, so that would be

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00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.960
<v Speaker 2>the one perk he had, But he did lose all

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00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:35.039
<v Speaker 2>of this money in the great car that he had.

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00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:39.480
<v Speaker 2>And Charles Schmid, from reading my dad's story and talking

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00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:44.519
<v Speaker 2>to my dad, clearly was starting to struggle with his

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00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:50.039
<v Speaker 2>own persona and who he was. He was still so

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00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.079
<v Speaker 2>attached to this teenage world yet he was a grown man,

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00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:56.480
<v Speaker 2>and instead of being able to, I guess, move on

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00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:00.880
<v Speaker 2>into being a real man and moving on with his life,

294
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.359
<v Speaker 2>he was kind of stuck in this world of the

295
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:08.160
<v Speaker 2>teenager and I think that he had a real internal

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00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:13.640
<v Speaker 2>battle with who he was and what he was going

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00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.359
<v Speaker 2>to do and how to move forward. And so I

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00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.880
<v Speaker 2>really gather that from reading my dad's story and talking

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00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.480
<v Speaker 2>to him that there was definitely an internal struggle with

300
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:27.039
<v Speaker 2>himself trying to figure out who he was and really

301
00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:29.960
<v Speaker 2>started to kind of change and evolve as he was

302
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.519
<v Speaker 2>getting older, and I think he was just really lost.

303
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.559
<v Speaker 5>You have a telling sort of story that stories about

304
00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:44.240
<v Speaker 5>how he is conning his mother more and more. But

305
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:46.559
<v Speaker 5>after a while even his mother doesn't believe some of

306
00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:50.799
<v Speaker 5>the stories because he's this notorious pathological liar, it seems,

307
00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:55.559
<v Speaker 5>but he talks about the attending classes at university. Meanwhile,

308
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:01.519
<v Speaker 5>tell us what the reality was in terms of what

309
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.079
<v Speaker 5>he was doing with his mother and what he was

310
00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.440
<v Speaker 5>saying in school. What was the reality of what he

311
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:07.200
<v Speaker 5>was actually doing.

312
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.680
<v Speaker 2>So his mother agreed to pay for him to go

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00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.720
<v Speaker 2>to the University of Arizona, and he had her convince

314
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.640
<v Speaker 2>that he was really going to the u of A

315
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.240
<v Speaker 2>at least for a certain amount of time, so she

316
00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.880
<v Speaker 2>gave him all of the money for books and classes

317
00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:27.079
<v Speaker 2>and all of this. My dad has shared with me

318
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:33.279
<v Speaker 2>that when Smitty was enrolling, he actually had He had

319
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.400
<v Speaker 2>paid my father a certain amount of money to go

320
00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.799
<v Speaker 2>for him to the u of A and sign up

321
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.000
<v Speaker 2>for these classes. So he paid my dad to spend

322
00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.279
<v Speaker 2>the time to do this so that he could show

323
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:45.319
<v Speaker 2>his mom he was enrolled in all of the classes.

324
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:49.279
<v Speaker 2>So my dad was pretending to be Charles Schmid and

325
00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.359
<v Speaker 2>getting all of that enrolled. Of course, Charles Schmid never

326
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.039
<v Speaker 2>showed up to any of the classes, and for a

327
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.920
<v Speaker 2>certain amount of time, his mother was giving him money

328
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:01.440
<v Speaker 2>to go to school, and you know, probably proud that

329
00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:05.960
<v Speaker 2>he was going to uvais clearly at some point, you know,

330
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.559
<v Speaker 2>it all kind of was, you know, realized, and she

331
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.599
<v Speaker 2>stopped giving him the money. But for a certain time

332
00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:16.000
<v Speaker 2>he had or convinced he was going to school, and

333
00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:18.519
<v Speaker 2>so he would leave to go to school. She would

334
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.519
<v Speaker 2>be giving him money, and then he and my dad

335
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:25.440
<v Speaker 2>would just be hanging out all day at restaurants or

336
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.799
<v Speaker 2>hanging out doing whatever while she thought he was going

337
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:28.279
<v Speaker 2>to school.

338
00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:36.400
<v Speaker 5>Before this as well, you notice some of the devolution

339
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:41.000
<v Speaker 5>of his is a character in that you talk about

340
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.480
<v Speaker 5>white lipstick and sun tan pills and dying of the

341
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.039
<v Speaker 5>arm hair and chest hair. Tell us a little bit

342
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:51.279
<v Speaker 5>more about this lipstick that he or pardon me, this

343
00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:56.799
<v Speaker 5>behavior he's exhibiting to a friend like your father, who

344
00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:58.960
<v Speaker 5>sees him quite often. Yeah.

345
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.880
<v Speaker 2>So, like I mentioned, when he first met Charles Schmid,

346
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.359
<v Speaker 2>he really was just kind of a charismatic, good looking guy.

347
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.240
<v Speaker 2>And as he started getting older and again I think

348
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.599
<v Speaker 2>he was trying to figure out who he was. He

349
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.599
<v Speaker 2>really was into Elvis Presley and started trying to kind

350
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.720
<v Speaker 2>of look like Elvis Presley, but in a really bizarre

351
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.759
<v Speaker 2>and distorted way. He was dyeing his hair black, and

352
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.960
<v Speaker 2>his chest hair is black, and even his eyebrows and everything.

353
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.960
<v Speaker 2>He would die, he would sit under a sun lamp

354
00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:34.960
<v Speaker 2>and get really suntan and wear really white chapstick or

355
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.519
<v Speaker 2>something on his lips. He started painting a mole on

356
00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.759
<v Speaker 2>his cheek, which started out like a little pinhole mole,

357
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.759
<v Speaker 2>and over time it just kept growing bigger and bigger,

358
00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.960
<v Speaker 2>until it finally was almost like a quarter size mole

359
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:53.319
<v Speaker 2>on his cheek. I think one of the most unusual

360
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:57.319
<v Speaker 2>things about Charles Schmid that everyone always writes about is

361
00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:01.599
<v Speaker 2>because he was short, he was trying to make himself taller,

362
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and so he would wear these boots that would be

363
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:08.160
<v Speaker 2>oversized for him, and he would stuff the boots with

364
00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.200
<v Speaker 2>tons of rags and whatever he could get into the

365
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.680
<v Speaker 2>boots so that he was almost walking on like high

366
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.640
<v Speaker 2>heels or stilts, almost And so he practiced walking in

367
00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:23.799
<v Speaker 2>these boots, and by doing that, he added between three

368
00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:27.240
<v Speaker 2>and six inches to his heights to make himself taller.

369
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.079
<v Speaker 2>And you know he really was when you see pictures

370
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:35.640
<v Speaker 2>of him of what he became. You can google pictures,

371
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.240
<v Speaker 2>and he became very bizarre. I mean, you can look

372
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.519
<v Speaker 2>at him and right away you can see that he

373
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.559
<v Speaker 2>was at one time a good looking guy, but just

374
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.440
<v Speaker 2>went really over the top with this persona that he

375
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:48.839
<v Speaker 2>was creating of himself.

376
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.200
<v Speaker 5>You also talk about that he was a real nonconformist

377
00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.920
<v Speaker 5>and that one time he came and ripped up and

378
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.480
<v Speaker 5>burned a bible in front of in front of your

379
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:06.119
<v Speaker 5>parents' place, in front of your father's home. So there

380
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:09.720
<v Speaker 5>was that behavior that's very very disturbing as well.

381
00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, he definitely did things that were disturbing as

382
00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:16.279
<v Speaker 2>far as you know. As you mentioned he tore up

383
00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:19.359
<v Speaker 2>a bible and burned it in front of my father's home.

384
00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:23.240
<v Speaker 2>At that time, he was very abusive to a cat

385
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.960
<v Speaker 2>in front of my father, which really freaked my father

386
00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:30.880
<v Speaker 2>out because he basically picked up this cat and was

387
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.400
<v Speaker 2>swinging it by its tail and hitting it against a wall,

388
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:36.519
<v Speaker 2>and had turned to my father and said you feel

389
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:43.039
<v Speaker 2>compassion why and just really always doing started really pressing

390
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:45.799
<v Speaker 2>the boundaries on everything and really showing a side of

391
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:50.119
<v Speaker 2>himself that was a bit frightening and telling about what

392
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:51.799
<v Speaker 2>was going on in his mind.

393
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.400
<v Speaker 5>You talk about the did he's twenty three years old

394
00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:00.680
<v Speaker 5>at this point. Then he's still hanging around with teenagers

395
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:05.759
<v Speaker 5>fifteen fourteen, and just a little bit older tell us

396
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:14.640
<v Speaker 5>about Wendy and her sister and how it comes that

397
00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:17.519
<v Speaker 5>they are that they get to know or they know

398
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.720
<v Speaker 5>Charles Schmidt and your father tell us about this little

399
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:22.880
<v Speaker 5>group of friends.

400
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.680
<v Speaker 2>So Charles Schmid did have a group of friends that

401
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:31.119
<v Speaker 2>my father was not really connected to. Charles Schmid had

402
00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.799
<v Speaker 2>many more friends than my father. So my father really

403
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.240
<v Speaker 2>had Charles Schmid as a close friend, but only had

404
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.759
<v Speaker 2>a few other friendships where Charlis Schmid had many friends

405
00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:48.359
<v Speaker 2>and he had multiple girlfriends he had, So Wendy and

406
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Gretchen actually their friendship came later on the Mary French

407
00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:00.319
<v Speaker 2>who was one of his girlfriends, and John Saunders, one

408
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:04.079
<v Speaker 2>of his friends. Those are the two that he actually

409
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:08.440
<v Speaker 2>started to convince and did end up convincing to murder

410
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.200
<v Speaker 2>with him. And so he had a group of friends

411
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.680
<v Speaker 2>that he actually was able to convince to start to

412
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.720
<v Speaker 2>really kind of sway to a dark side with him.

413
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.680
<v Speaker 2>And so my father really wasn't necessarily a part of

414
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.880
<v Speaker 2>those friendships, but definitely there was another side of Schmid

415
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.000
<v Speaker 2>that he was having some other friends get involved in

416
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.599
<v Speaker 2>things with him.

417
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.119
<v Speaker 5>You talk about that they had convinced John Saunders and

418
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.119
<v Speaker 5>Mary French and Mary French was his girlfriend and she

419
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:42.000
<v Speaker 5>was quite young as well, right, fifteen years older?

420
00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:45.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, some many French was younger.

421
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:50.839
<v Speaker 5>Yes, Now tell us about the what happens to Gretchen

422
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.079
<v Speaker 5>and at what point? And then what does your father

423
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.839
<v Speaker 5>know initially and then what does he find out and how.

424
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:08.480
<v Speaker 2>So Wendy, Wendy and Gretchen. Actually the first girl who

425
00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:12.839
<v Speaker 2>ends up getting murdered is actually Eleene Rowe. So Eleene

426
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:17.799
<v Speaker 2>Rowe is a girl that Charles Schmid convinced John Saunders

427
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:24.079
<v Speaker 2>and Mary French to murder with him. So Charles Schmid

428
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.519
<v Speaker 2>had decided that he wanted to kill somebody and see

429
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:30.680
<v Speaker 2>what it felt like, and somehow convinced these other two

430
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:34.839
<v Speaker 2>to do it with him. And so John Saunders and

431
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Charles Schmid had created they were looking for someone to

432
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.519
<v Speaker 2>murder a young girl. And Charles Schmid had actually created

433
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:49.079
<v Speaker 2>a list of possible girls to kill, and they had

434
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:53.599
<v Speaker 2>decided on one of the girls on the list, Aleene Rowe.

435
00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:58.440
<v Speaker 2>And so Charles Schmid convinced Mary French, one of his

436
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.680
<v Speaker 2>girlfriends at the time, to go to Eleene Roe's home

437
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:07.319
<v Speaker 2>and convince her to go out with them, with the

438
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:09.680
<v Speaker 2>impression that she was going to be going out with

439
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.480
<v Speaker 2>John Saunders while Mary would be with Charles Schmid. So

440
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Mary did convince Alene Rowe to go out. One night

441
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:19.440
<v Speaker 2>they had waited for Elene Roe's mother to go to work.

442
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:23.119
<v Speaker 2>Alene Rose's mother was a single mom and worked as

443
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.920
<v Speaker 2>a night nurse, and so they waited for her mom

444
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.319
<v Speaker 2>to leave for work, and then Mary French went to

445
00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:30.880
<v Speaker 2>her window and convinced her to come out, which she did,

446
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.640
<v Speaker 2>and they drove out to the desert to supposedly drink

447
00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:42.319
<v Speaker 2>beer and ended up murdering Alene Rowe. Mary French waited

448
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:46.920
<v Speaker 2>in the car while John Saunders and Charles Schmid walked

449
00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:50.799
<v Speaker 2>off to the desert with her and ended up raping

450
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:54.160
<v Speaker 2>her and then murdering her by hitting her over the

451
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:56.720
<v Speaker 2>head with rocks or a rock.

452
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:01.640
<v Speaker 4>Lucky asking people what's the your displace you've gotten lucky?

453
00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:04.680
<v Speaker 3>Lucky? In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in

454
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:06.799
<v Speaker 3>my dentist's office more than once.

455
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:08.559
<v Speaker 1>Actually do I have to say?

456
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:08.839
<v Speaker 5>Yes?

457
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:09.079
<v Speaker 4>You do?

458
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:11.839
<v Speaker 1>In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?

459
00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:14.839
<v Speaker 4>Really yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place.

460
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:15.480
<v Speaker 1>You've gotten lucky?

461
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:16.680
<v Speaker 3>I never win?

462
00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:18.240
<v Speaker 5>And tell well, there you have it.

463
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.440
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464
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465
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466
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467
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:30.799
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468
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469
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470
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:37.440
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471
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:40.759
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472
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.359
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473
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.440
<v Speaker 4>you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and

474
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:46.599
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475
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.240
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476
00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:54.000
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477
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478
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:01.960
<v Speaker 5>What did they do with her body?

479
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:06.880
<v Speaker 2>They buried the body. So they went back up and

480
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:10.240
<v Speaker 2>got Mary French and told her that they had killed her.

481
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:13.920
<v Speaker 2>And then the three of them dug a grave and

482
00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.799
<v Speaker 2>buried her body and buried all of the evidence. And

483
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:24.200
<v Speaker 2>then shortly after, about six months after that is when

484
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Charles Schmid told my father that he had done this

485
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:32.880
<v Speaker 2>with Mary French and John Saunders. My dad, I think

486
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.599
<v Speaker 2>believed him, but at the same time didn't know what

487
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:39.920
<v Speaker 2>to believe with Charles Schmid because he was such a

488
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:43.480
<v Speaker 2>storyteller and he was always telling over the top stories.

489
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:46.480
<v Speaker 2>So I think my dad at that point had seen

490
00:29:46.519 --> 00:29:49.079
<v Speaker 2>the changes in Schmid and probably didn't doubt that he

491
00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.799
<v Speaker 2>really did this. Of course, he didn't have any real evidence,

492
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:55.319
<v Speaker 2>didn't know where the body was, didn't know any of

493
00:29:55.319 --> 00:30:00.480
<v Speaker 2>the details to like lead somebody to a bo but

494
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:02.759
<v Speaker 2>he was told that they did it, and so my

495
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.319
<v Speaker 2>dad had that information and now was you know, holding

496
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:09.640
<v Speaker 2>on to that information in his mind, realizing just how

497
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.519
<v Speaker 2>insane Charles Schmid was becoming or had become.

498
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:20.119
<v Speaker 5>What was the progress with police in terms of Saunders

499
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.640
<v Speaker 5>and Mary French being suspects or Charles Smith being suspects

500
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:29.359
<v Speaker 5>in the Aileen rogue case? What were police doing, where

501
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.720
<v Speaker 5>were they looking, and who were they suspecting with anyone?

502
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.960
<v Speaker 2>At that time in Tucson, there were a lot of runaways,

503
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.720
<v Speaker 2>and so Eileen Roe's mother knew that something happened to

504
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.839
<v Speaker 2>her daughter, and she knew that her daughter didn't run away,

505
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and she was constantly trying to get the police to

506
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.920
<v Speaker 2>do more. The Tucson Police department at that time really

507
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.000
<v Speaker 2>was really writing it off as a runaway case and

508
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.279
<v Speaker 2>kept telling her, you know, we have this happening with

509
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.960
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of teenagers. She's going to come at, you know,

510
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:03.279
<v Speaker 2>don't you know. They were trying to brush it off,

511
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.519
<v Speaker 2>and Eleen's rou's mother knew that that just wasn't the case.

512
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:16.799
<v Speaker 2>The police did question many of the teenagers, including Charles Schmid.

513
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:19.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if they ever questioned Mary and John.

514
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:22.240
<v Speaker 2>I know that they did question Charles Schmid. They talked

515
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.160
<v Speaker 2>to pretty much everybody you know at the school that

516
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:30.160
<v Speaker 2>might have known her, and really there was nothing for

517
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.079
<v Speaker 2>them to go on, and so they just kept believing

518
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:36.680
<v Speaker 2>that this was a runaway case. And really the Aline

519
00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:40.599
<v Speaker 2>Rode case just sort of dwindled away for the police

520
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:44.799
<v Speaker 2>department and was kind of written off as a runaway case. Sadly.

521
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:51.599
<v Speaker 5>You talk about also that at some point he starts

522
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:56.200
<v Speaker 5>talking their friends. Your father and Schmid are friends, and

523
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:01.000
<v Speaker 5>he starts asking him certain questions. He doesn't come out

524
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.720
<v Speaker 5>with it immediately, but what are the things he starts

525
00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:08.720
<v Speaker 5>talking to him about in terms of Gretchen and her disappearance?

526
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:11.680
<v Speaker 5>What does he have to or pardon me, what what

527
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:14.440
<v Speaker 5>does he have to say about even Aleen Rowe?

528
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:19.680
<v Speaker 2>So, as I mentioned, he did confide in my father

529
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:26.319
<v Speaker 2>that he murdered Aleen Rowe, and he you know, my

530
00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:30.880
<v Speaker 2>father writes, you know, about times where he's sitting in

531
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.599
<v Speaker 2>Charles Schmid's home and you know, he's he's looking at

532
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:35.680
<v Speaker 2>this man that he used to you know, be friends

533
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.400
<v Speaker 2>with and look up to, and he's starting to really

534
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:44.759
<v Speaker 2>fear and watching him progress into something very again bizarre.

535
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:49.920
<v Speaker 2>But he does also share that at some point Charles

536
00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.839
<v Speaker 2>Schmid even tried to convince my father to murder a

537
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:57.559
<v Speaker 2>family with him. You know, I think it of course

538
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:00.240
<v Speaker 2>didn't go anywhere, and my father, you know, would just

539
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.599
<v Speaker 2>constantly sort of listened to Schmid and listened to him

540
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:07.519
<v Speaker 2>talk and kind of brush things off. But it was

541
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.559
<v Speaker 2>clear to my father from things that Schmid was saying

542
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:13.960
<v Speaker 2>that he just was no longer the person that my

543
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.519
<v Speaker 2>father knew when he was younger. And you know, my

544
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:22.000
<v Speaker 2>father did realize that that Charles Schmid had pretty much

545
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, lost his mind, and he was afraid of

546
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:26.799
<v Speaker 2>him at that point.

547
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.640
<v Speaker 5>Tell us about the two sisters, Gretchen and Wendy first,

548
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.839
<v Speaker 5>and tell us what their relationship was to your father,

549
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:42.519
<v Speaker 5>and Charles smidt before you tell us what happened to Gretchen.

550
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:49.359
<v Speaker 2>So, Gretchen he met at a public pool. Charles Schmid

551
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:53.599
<v Speaker 2>met at a public pool about six months after Eleen

552
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:57.799
<v Speaker 2>Rowe was murdered and really fell smitten for her. She

553
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>was a very beautiful, blonde young girl who also, like

554
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Charles Schmid, came from a well to do family. She

555
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.480
<v Speaker 2>had a father who was a renowned heart surgeon here

556
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:14.800
<v Speaker 2>in town, and so she came from a family with

557
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:17.760
<v Speaker 2>a lot of money, and they just sort of really

558
00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:22.880
<v Speaker 2>fell for each other pretty quickly and started dating each other.

559
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:27.840
<v Speaker 2>There is a point now, Wendy is her younger sister

560
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:30.719
<v Speaker 2>who hung out with her a lot. She was several

561
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:34.079
<v Speaker 2>years younger, and so that's who Wendy was. So the

562
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Fritz sisters would be around Charles Schmid quite often. And

563
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:45.280
<v Speaker 2>eventually Charles Schmid decides that he's going to take Gretchen

564
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.760
<v Speaker 2>out and show her Alene Rose body, or at least

565
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:55.000
<v Speaker 2>where the burial is, because he, according to what he

566
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:57.039
<v Speaker 2>tells my father, is he wanted to see if Gretchen

567
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:59.119
<v Speaker 2>would still love him even if she knew. This is

568
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.400
<v Speaker 2>who he was. So he took Gretchen out to Alene

569
00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:05.599
<v Speaker 2>Roe's body and showed her and told her what he

570
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:12.559
<v Speaker 2>had done. And at that point, you know, Gretchen, you know,

571
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:14.239
<v Speaker 2>told him that she would love him no matter what.

572
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:18.199
<v Speaker 2>But she started really holding that over Charles Schmid's head.

573
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:22.360
<v Speaker 2>And so she started really kind of trying to pull

574
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.480
<v Speaker 2>the reins in and control what Charles Schmid was doing

575
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:31.079
<v Speaker 2>and making rules for him and constantly telling him that

576
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.320
<v Speaker 2>if he didn't do what she wanted him to do,

577
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.199
<v Speaker 2>she was going to go to the police. She started

578
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.760
<v Speaker 2>really holding this over his head, and that's when the

579
00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:43.280
<v Speaker 2>dynamic between Gretchen and Charles Schmid really started to change

580
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and it became kind of a love hate relationship at

581
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:46.599
<v Speaker 2>that point.

582
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:51.960
<v Speaker 5>Now, in all of this, at some point, Gretchen and

583
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:57.360
<v Speaker 5>Wendy disappear. What does your father's surmise from that? Now,

584
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:01.119
<v Speaker 5>with this escalating bizarre behavior and some of the things

585
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:04.960
<v Speaker 5>he's already said, what is he surmise? And again, what

586
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.480
<v Speaker 5>did the police do in terms of suspects.

587
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:16.119
<v Speaker 2>So Gretchen and Windy did disappear in August of nineteen

588
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:19.800
<v Speaker 2>sixty five. They went to a drive in movie and

589
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.039
<v Speaker 2>never came home and my father did suspect that Charles

590
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:30.639
<v Speaker 2>Schmid had done something, and it was a short time

591
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:33.960
<v Speaker 2>after that Charis Shmid did confide in my father that

592
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:38.280
<v Speaker 2>he had killed Gretchen and Wendy, which my dad was

593
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:45.000
<v Speaker 2>thinking probably did happen, but again didn't have any proof

594
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:50.599
<v Speaker 2>or anything. Now that the police had questioned. Gretchen's family

595
00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:55.519
<v Speaker 2>did not care for Charles Schmid and they had kept

596
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:58.920
<v Speaker 2>trying to keep Gretchen from seeing Charles Schmid, and when

597
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:03.519
<v Speaker 2>she disappeared, the Fritz family really did believe that Charles

598
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Schmid was, you know, the co written why their daughters disappeared.

599
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.360
<v Speaker 2>So the police did question Charles Schmid as well as

600
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:14.000
<v Speaker 2>all of the other teenagers that knew them and from

601
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:18.480
<v Speaker 2>the school, and again there wasn't any anything for them

602
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:22.920
<v Speaker 2>to pin Charles Schmid on these cases. And there was

603
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.400
<v Speaker 2>also a lot of speculation that they too had run away,

604
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:29.159
<v Speaker 2>and there were a lot of stories that were coming

605
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:34.079
<v Speaker 2>out of sightings of seeing Gretchen and Windy in different areas,

606
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.880
<v Speaker 2>so there was still again that belief, just like with

607
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:41.199
<v Speaker 2>Eleen Rowe, that they may have run away. So the

608
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:45.119
<v Speaker 2>police weren't sure what was going on there They definitely

609
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:49.000
<v Speaker 2>questioned everybody that they could. There wasn't any evidence that

610
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:55.159
<v Speaker 2>any foul play had happened until they they did find

611
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:59.599
<v Speaker 2>her car at a hotel. But even with the car,

612
00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:01.880
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of evidence to go off of.

613
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.760
<v Speaker 2>They did find Gretchen's car with her personette, which was

614
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.119
<v Speaker 2>very questionable of why the car would have been left behind.

615
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:11.760
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I think back when I read this,

616
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I realize all of this was happening in the sixties,

617
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:19.400
<v Speaker 2>where you know, there wasn't the things that we have now.

618
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:22.639
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's no DNA evidence, there's no cell phone

619
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:26.360
<v Speaker 2>records or computer records, and so at that time, you

620
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.199
<v Speaker 2>have somebody missing, and if you don't have a smoking

621
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:33.960
<v Speaker 2>gun and you don't have you know, a body, you

622
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.519
<v Speaker 2>really don't have anything to go on. And so I

623
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:39.639
<v Speaker 2>see where the Tusom police were just stuck and didn't

624
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:42.440
<v Speaker 2>know what happened to the girls.

625
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:47.760
<v Speaker 5>You talk about a very interesting situation too, that's demonstrative

626
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:53.400
<v Speaker 5>to your father about Charles Schmidt and sends your father

627
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.159
<v Speaker 5>on some strange behavior. According to other people and officials,

628
00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:01.760
<v Speaker 5>he has a girlfriend named Kathy. Kathy has a history

629
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:06.280
<v Speaker 5>of a relationship which he is friendly called Smitty, So

630
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:08.519
<v Speaker 5>tell us a little bit about that. And because of

631
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:11.719
<v Speaker 5>that relationship and because of the things that Smitty is

632
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.320
<v Speaker 5>telling your father, what does your father do in response?

633
00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:19.559
<v Speaker 2>So, as you mentioned my father, there was a girl

634
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:23.400
<v Speaker 2>named Kathy that my father had been dating, and Kathy

635
00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:27.280
<v Speaker 2>had confided in my father, And this was a short

636
00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:30.800
<v Speaker 2>time after both Gretchen and Wendy had turned up missing

637
00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:35.119
<v Speaker 2>as well, and Kathy confided in my father that something

638
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.280
<v Speaker 2>was happening at night. Somebody was messing with her screen

639
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.920
<v Speaker 2>and making noises outside of her window, and it had

640
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.920
<v Speaker 2>her frightened. My father had decided that he was going

641
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:46.519
<v Speaker 2>to get to the bottom of this and see what

642
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:50.519
<v Speaker 2>was going on, and so he hung out on her

643
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:54.320
<v Speaker 2>street one night, kind of watching her house and was

644
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:56.159
<v Speaker 2>getting ready to leave. He had been there for quite

645
00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>some time, and then saw Charles Schmid's car coming down

646
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:05.079
<v Speaker 2>the road. At that point, he had a Ford Falcon

647
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.760
<v Speaker 2>sprint that he would drive, and so he was coming

648
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:13.159
<v Speaker 2>down the road and saw my father and pulled up

649
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:15.639
<v Speaker 2>to my father and acted as if he was looking

650
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:19.280
<v Speaker 2>for my father. But my dad at that point just

651
00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:23.320
<v Speaker 2>knew that Charles Schmid now had his sights on Kathy.

652
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:25.840
<v Speaker 2>He was convinced that she was going to be his

653
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:31.239
<v Speaker 2>next victim. And once he started feeling like, you know,

654
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Kathy was in danger, he became really obsessed with watching

655
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:41.079
<v Speaker 2>over Kathy to protect her. And really he became you know,

656
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.960
<v Speaker 2>day and night, he held a vigil in front of

657
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.719
<v Speaker 2>her home and on her street to watch over Kathy

658
00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:49.719
<v Speaker 2>and make sure that nothing would happen to her. And

659
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.519
<v Speaker 2>he was convinced that he was the only one that

660
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:55.239
<v Speaker 2>was going to be able to prevent Charles Schmid from

661
00:40:55.280 --> 00:41:00.039
<v Speaker 2>getting to Kathy. And of course, for Kathy's family and

662
00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:05.079
<v Speaker 2>for the neighborhood, this was very concerning. And so my dad,

663
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:08.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, obviously they could see he was obsessed with

664
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:11.639
<v Speaker 2>this girl. They didn't know why he was obsessed, and

665
00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:18.119
<v Speaker 2>so he really became you know, to the police, somebody

666
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:21.880
<v Speaker 2>to really watch because he was watching over Kathy all

667
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:26.320
<v Speaker 2>the time, and you know, it really ate up my dad.

668
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:30.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he just was obsessed. And he admits that

669
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.719
<v Speaker 2>he became just completely obsessed, and of course it destroyed

670
00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:39.760
<v Speaker 2>his relationship with Kathy. And but he was obsessed with

671
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:43.360
<v Speaker 2>watching over her and trying to prevent Charles Schmid from

672
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:48.480
<v Speaker 2>getting to her, and that became his obsession for several months.

673
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:52.719
<v Speaker 5>You talk about this vigil and then one night he

674
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:56.000
<v Speaker 5>gets a call from his friend Smitty inviting him to

675
00:41:56.039 --> 00:41:59.159
<v Speaker 5>a party. Now, why would he go in terms of

676
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.599
<v Speaker 5>since he's guarding Kathy. And then tell us a little

677
00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:05.639
<v Speaker 5>bit about this party and what was said and what

678
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:06.760
<v Speaker 5>your father learned.

679
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:11.719
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so it had been quite a while since my

680
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:14.119
<v Speaker 2>dad had really been hanging out with Charles Schmid, because

681
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:15.920
<v Speaker 2>my dad was spending all of his time trying to

682
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:19.800
<v Speaker 2>protect Kathy from Charles Schmid and kind of watching over

683
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:23.480
<v Speaker 2>her in her home. And so one morning, Charles Schmid

684
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:25.440
<v Speaker 2>called my father and said he was having a party

685
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:28.920
<v Speaker 2>at his house and invited my father. And at first

686
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:32.760
<v Speaker 2>my father you know, turned it down, did not, you know,

687
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:35.599
<v Speaker 2>but he really kind of convinced my dad, And after

688
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:38.960
<v Speaker 2>my dad you know, considered it, realized, well, if he's

689
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:42.440
<v Speaker 2>with Charles Schmid, then Charles Schmid can't be you know,

690
00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:45.280
<v Speaker 2>after Kathy. So my dad really believed as long as

691
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.239
<v Speaker 2>he was with one of them at all times, then

692
00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Kathy was safe. And so he did agree to go

693
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:54.519
<v Speaker 2>to the party and that night, I mean that day

694
00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:57.519
<v Speaker 2>he watched over Kathy's home like he always did, and

695
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:00.800
<v Speaker 2>then that night he headed to Charles Schmid's else for

696
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:03.960
<v Speaker 2>the party, and you know, he writes about getting there

697
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.519
<v Speaker 2>and at first there was no one there and the

698
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:09.599
<v Speaker 2>panic that he felt, you know, just feeling like he

699
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:14.159
<v Speaker 2>had really been had in Charles Schmid, you know, tricked him.

700
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:17.079
<v Speaker 2>And my father was dropped off at the party by

701
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.320
<v Speaker 2>his parents, so he didn't have a vehicle, and he

702
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:26.039
<v Speaker 2>felt very, very concerned. At that point. People did start

703
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:28.679
<v Speaker 2>showing up for the party. Charles Schmid did show up

704
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.880
<v Speaker 2>for the party, but it's just it, you know, when

705
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:34.360
<v Speaker 2>you read it, you realize just the panic he felt

706
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:36.719
<v Speaker 2>not being able to watch over her all of the time,

707
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:39.559
<v Speaker 2>and he was just so convinced that Charles Schmid was

708
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:40.599
<v Speaker 2>going to kill Kathy.

709
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:47.840
<v Speaker 5>Now at this party too. This is an incredible development

710
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:53.519
<v Speaker 5>that Smitty arrives with some guys in suits around his age,

711
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:55.239
<v Speaker 5>so he's a little bit older than everyone else, and

712
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:58.840
<v Speaker 5>these guys are nicely dressed. And you say, your father

713
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:02.800
<v Speaker 5>recognizes these people from the newspapers, So who are these

714
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:06.400
<v Speaker 5>people and tell us about this incident.

715
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:12.559
<v Speaker 2>So Joe Banano, who is was the crime boss for

716
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:16.800
<v Speaker 2>the Banano crime family, which is one of the Big

717
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:21.840
<v Speaker 2>Five you know, crime families in the United States. Joe

718
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Banano had moved here with his family, and so there

719
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:30.119
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of news always kind of showing Joe

720
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:35.079
<v Speaker 2>Banano and his family. And these men showed up and

721
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:39.639
<v Speaker 2>my father recognized them from actually the people who showed up,

722
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:42.320
<v Speaker 2>he didn't recognize. It was once he was taken somewhere.

723
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:45.239
<v Speaker 2>So there were two people in suits with Charles Schmid,

724
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:49.039
<v Speaker 2>and Charles Schmid asked my father to come outside with him.

725
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:53.480
<v Speaker 2>My father went outside and Charles Schmid told him that

726
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:56.079
<v Speaker 2>these people are from the mafia and they want to

727
00:44:56.159 --> 00:45:00.000
<v Speaker 2>question him about Gretchen and Wendy, and that they want

728
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.440
<v Speaker 2>meant him to come with them, And of course that

729
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:07.320
<v Speaker 2>completely frightened my father, and you know, Charles Schmid convinced

730
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:10.119
<v Speaker 2>him that he would be safe and he would be

731
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:13.119
<v Speaker 2>with him. And so Charles Schmid and my father went

732
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:16.760
<v Speaker 2>in the car with these two men from the mafia,

733
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:20.920
<v Speaker 2>who later turned out to be Joe Banano Junior, the

734
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:25.400
<v Speaker 2>youngest son of Joe Banano, and another man from the mafia.

735
00:45:26.119 --> 00:45:30.320
<v Speaker 2>They drove them to an apartment here in town. In

736
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:37.199
<v Speaker 2>that apartment was Salvatore Banano, otherwise known as Bill Banano,

737
00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:41.480
<v Speaker 2>who was the oldest son of Joe Banano and then

738
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Joe Bataglia, and he did recognize them from the papers

739
00:45:47.480 --> 00:45:49.400
<v Speaker 2>because they had been in the papers, and so he

740
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:53.840
<v Speaker 2>did realize he really was with these mafia mobsters in

741
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:56.599
<v Speaker 2>this apartment. And so it was a very frightening thing.

742
00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:00.320
<v Speaker 2>And they were questioned by them for some time about

743
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:05.880
<v Speaker 2>the girls, and my father at that point Schmid had

744
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:08.079
<v Speaker 2>confided in him at that point that he had killed

745
00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:10.719
<v Speaker 2>Gretchen and Wendy. So my father knew that Schmid had

746
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:13.920
<v Speaker 2>said he had killed Gretchen and Wendy, but my father

747
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:16.519
<v Speaker 2>just kept denying he knew anything, and just really felt

748
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:19.039
<v Speaker 2>like he was in quicksand at that moment and getting

749
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.840
<v Speaker 2>deeper and deeper into all of this. And so from

750
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:27.199
<v Speaker 2>my father, you know, he just quickly found himself really

751
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:29.280
<v Speaker 2>in over his head in this whole thing.

752
00:46:33.159 --> 00:46:36.280
<v Speaker 5>What did Smitty say in terms of when they asked

753
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.079
<v Speaker 5>about Gretchen and Wendy, and they said they wanted to

754
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:43.320
<v Speaker 5>find information out, they wanted to question these people. They

755
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.760
<v Speaker 5>also warned them if they you know, if they didn't,

756
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:47.599
<v Speaker 5>if they did lie at all, they would be in

757
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:51.760
<v Speaker 5>big trouble. What does Smitty pull out of the out

758
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:56.159
<v Speaker 5>of his hat in terms of a plausible place where

759
00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:57.880
<v Speaker 5>Gretchen and Wendy might have gone.

760
00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:05.360
<v Speaker 2>He tries to convince the Mafia that Gretchen went to California,

761
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:09.159
<v Speaker 2>and he tells them that he actually is the one

762
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:13.400
<v Speaker 2>that helped Gretchen learn how to run away, and so

763
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:15.800
<v Speaker 2>he tells them that he's the one that told her

764
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.639
<v Speaker 2>she could go to California where she could make herself

765
00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:22.199
<v Speaker 2>look older and blend in. And he tells the mafia

766
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:24.639
<v Speaker 2>that he even taught her, you know, all the things

767
00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:28.199
<v Speaker 2>to do to run away, and he was sure, you know,

768
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:30.400
<v Speaker 2>he told the mafia he was sure that her and

769
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:35.199
<v Speaker 2>Wendy were in California. And there was recently a vacation

770
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:38.199
<v Speaker 2>that Gretchen and Wendy had gone to with their family,

771
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:42.199
<v Speaker 2>and she had met a boy there in California, and

772
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.280
<v Speaker 2>she admitted to meeting somebody in California and told Smitty

773
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:49.079
<v Speaker 2>about it, and Smitty shared that with the Mafia and

774
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:53.599
<v Speaker 2>told them that she had been dating this guy, and

775
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:56.639
<v Speaker 2>he's sure that she went there to be with him

776
00:47:56.719 --> 00:48:00.880
<v Speaker 2>in California, and so he just kind of kept sticking

777
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:07.039
<v Speaker 2>to that story as the conversation ended with those mob people.

778
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.159
<v Speaker 2>They told Schmid that they were going to come and

779
00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:12.719
<v Speaker 2>get him the next day and take him to California

780
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:17.280
<v Speaker 2>to look for the girls. So I don't know if

781
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:20.480
<v Speaker 2>they really believed Schmid or if they were calling his bluff,

782
00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:24.039
<v Speaker 2>but they did come the next day and they took

783
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:27.199
<v Speaker 2>him to California to find Gretchen and Wendy.

784
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:32.400
<v Speaker 5>Let's use this, Lisa as an opportunity to stop for

785
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:37.280
<v Speaker 5>a second to talk about our sponsors, Zip Recruiter hiring.

786
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:41.360
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787
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:45.199
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788
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:50.400
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789
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.920
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790
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791
00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:00.480
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792
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.480
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793
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:09.440
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794
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:13.199
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795
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:16.360
<v Speaker 5>on zip recruiter get a quality candidate through the site

796
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:20.960
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797
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:24.920
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798
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:28.440
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799
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:33.039
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800
00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:37.159
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801
00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:42.159
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802
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:49.039
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803
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:55.840
<v Speaker 5>dot com. Slash murder. ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. Zip

804
00:49:55.920 --> 00:50:03.840
<v Speaker 5>recruiter the smartest way to hire. We talked about this Batagular,

805
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:10.960
<v Speaker 5>Charles Bataglia, these mob members and Banano, Joe Banano, and

806
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:15.480
<v Speaker 5>they want some information regarding these two missing girls. They

807
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:19.159
<v Speaker 5>call his bluff or they believe that he may even

808
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:25.119
<v Speaker 5>help them find her in San Diego or somewhere in California.

809
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:28.800
<v Speaker 5>So what's the next thing that happens with these two mobsters?

810
00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:32.400
<v Speaker 5>And what is your father thinking about this entire thing,

811
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:37.119
<v Speaker 5>knowing that that his friend Smitty knows a lot more

812
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:39.119
<v Speaker 5>than he is saying.

813
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:44.079
<v Speaker 2>So I should mention that same night when they left,

814
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:46.840
<v Speaker 2>because I mentioned they did come and take him to California.

815
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:50.360
<v Speaker 2>But a very important piece of the story happened that

816
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:53.480
<v Speaker 2>night when they left the apartment. And so they left

817
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:57.239
<v Speaker 2>the apartment and they were dropped off at Hamburger Joint

818
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:02.039
<v Speaker 2>and they started talking about the meeting and what Charles

819
00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:05.320
<v Speaker 2>was going to do if he was picked up by

820
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:10.039
<v Speaker 2>the mafia, and Charles Schmid, you know, confided to my

821
00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:12.599
<v Speaker 2>father that the thing he was really worried about is

822
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:15.960
<v Speaker 2>that he had never buried Gretchen and Windy and they

823
00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:19.400
<v Speaker 2>were just laying out where he had left them in

824
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.840
<v Speaker 2>the desert. And my father was shocked by that and said,

825
00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:24.880
<v Speaker 2>what do you mean you didn't even bury them, And

826
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.199
<v Speaker 2>at that point, he still wasn't one hundred percent sure

827
00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that they didn't run away and that he wasn't telling stories.

828
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:35.119
<v Speaker 2>And my father decided to call his bluff at that

829
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.639
<v Speaker 2>point so that he could find out the truth. And

830
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:40.079
<v Speaker 2>my father said to him, you know, I'm in this

831
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:43.639
<v Speaker 2>now too. I just spent you know, the evening talking

832
00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:48.239
<v Speaker 2>to these mobsters and if you didn't really bury the girls,

833
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:50.840
<v Speaker 2>we need to go out there and bury them. And

834
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.840
<v Speaker 2>really his main reason of doing that is he wanted

835
00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.559
<v Speaker 2>proof that the girls really had been killed, and Charles

836
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:03.880
<v Speaker 2>Schmid was telling the truth, and you know, to unfortunately,

837
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:06.239
<v Speaker 2>he was telling the truth, and my father was taken

838
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:10.599
<v Speaker 2>out to the desert where Charles Schmid had buried the bodies,

839
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:12.760
<v Speaker 2>and my father ended up in the middle of a

840
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:17.280
<v Speaker 2>situation where he really was trying to help bury the

841
00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:21.719
<v Speaker 2>two girls. And you know, that happened that night after

842
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:24.880
<v Speaker 2>visiting the mob, and so at that point my father

843
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:27.960
<v Speaker 2>did know for sure the truth. My father did know

844
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:31.639
<v Speaker 2>that Charles Schmid had done this, but he also at

845
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:34.679
<v Speaker 2>that point felt like he was now in over his

846
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:37.239
<v Speaker 2>head and could be into a lot of trouble. And

847
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:41.159
<v Speaker 2>when they left the desert that night, they were unsuccessful

848
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:43.760
<v Speaker 2>in burying the bodies because the desert ground was so hard.

849
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:46.800
<v Speaker 2>But Charles Schmid did tell him, you're in this as

850
00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:49.639
<v Speaker 2>deep as I am now, and my father believed that.

851
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.559
<v Speaker 2>And my father believed that now that he, you know,

852
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:54.760
<v Speaker 2>had been there to the site and had seen the

853
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:57.480
<v Speaker 2>bodies and tried to help Schmid bury the bodies, you know,

854
00:52:57.559 --> 00:53:01.159
<v Speaker 2>he believed that he was now too deep this to

855
00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:03.400
<v Speaker 2>really go to the police himself, because he thought that

856
00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:07.719
<v Speaker 2>he could go to prison. So you know, at that point,

857
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:12.039
<v Speaker 2>he really was lost himself in what the right thing

858
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:16.760
<v Speaker 2>to do was. And he my father continued his vigil

859
00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:21.239
<v Speaker 2>of Kathy's home and then Charles Schmid was picked up

860
00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:23.840
<v Speaker 2>by the mafia the next day and taken out to

861
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:29.079
<v Speaker 2>California to look for the girls. My understanding is they

862
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.480
<v Speaker 2>all ended up getting picked up by the police on

863
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:35.119
<v Speaker 2>a beach walking around showing pictures of Gretchen and Windy,

864
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:38.400
<v Speaker 2>and Charles Schmid was sent back home here in Tucson,

865
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:42.079
<v Speaker 2>and so that's what happened from that point with them.

866
00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:46.519
<v Speaker 2>The reason that mafia was even involved in this is

867
00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:50.360
<v Speaker 2>that Gretchen Fritz, you know, I mentioned her father was

868
00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:54.519
<v Speaker 2>a heart surgeon. He was a heart surgeon for Joe Binano,

869
00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:57.760
<v Speaker 2>so he had that connection to Joe Bernano and was

870
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:02.199
<v Speaker 2>his surgeon and so so you know, the understanding is

871
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:07.159
<v Speaker 2>that Gretchen's father got Joe Bernano involved to try and

872
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:09.360
<v Speaker 2>help him find his daughters, and that's how the mafia

873
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:10.440
<v Speaker 2>got involved in all of this.

874
00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:19.280
<v Speaker 5>Now you talk about the how things progress with your

875
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:26.000
<v Speaker 5>father and this information, So what happens with your father

876
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:28.519
<v Speaker 5>and this information and what does he do next?

877
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:36.280
<v Speaker 2>So he doesn't do anything with the Gretchen and Windy information.

878
00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:38.719
<v Speaker 2>Now that he's been out to the bodies, he's convinced

879
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:42.000
<v Speaker 2>that he himself is going to be in a lot

880
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:45.239
<v Speaker 2>of trouble and could even go to prison for having

881
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 2>even tried to help bury the bodies. And Charles Schmid

882
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:49.559
<v Speaker 2>really had him convinced that he was in it just

883
00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:54.760
<v Speaker 2>as deep as him. Now he continued to even more

884
00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:58.000
<v Speaker 2>deeply now that he knew for sure that Charles Schmid

885
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:01.159
<v Speaker 2>had killed these girls, he he was even that much

886
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:04.719
<v Speaker 2>more afraid for his own life, for Kathy's life, and

887
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:10.400
<v Speaker 2>was really watching over her still. And the family was

888
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:15.320
<v Speaker 2>able to finally get a restraining order and the courts

889
00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:19.480
<v Speaker 2>told my father that he needed to go and live

890
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:23.719
<v Speaker 2>with his grandmother in Columbus, Ohio for six months so

891
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:27.880
<v Speaker 2>that he would be pulled away from Kathy and her neighborhood.

892
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:31.440
<v Speaker 2>And so that's what happened next. So my father was

893
00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:34.320
<v Speaker 2>pulled out of Tucson by the courts and sent to

894
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:37.760
<v Speaker 2>live with his grandmother in Columbus, Ohio. Which is when

895
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:42.440
<v Speaker 2>he really panics because now he really has no control

896
00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:44.960
<v Speaker 2>over what Charles Schmid does and what he could do

897
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:48.400
<v Speaker 2>to Kathy and becomes panicked.

898
00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:54.559
<v Speaker 5>And as a result, what does he do to try

899
00:55:54.559 --> 00:56:00.159
<v Speaker 5>to protect Kathy And how does he have this I

900
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:04.000
<v Speaker 5>don't know, reversal and this you know, there is a

901
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:06.440
<v Speaker 5>sort of a code, and especially young people adhere to

902
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:09.599
<v Speaker 5>these things of he's my friend, he once was my friend.

903
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:12.519
<v Speaker 5>How does he grapple with some of these things, and

904
00:56:12.559 --> 00:56:15.760
<v Speaker 5>what's the turning point? And how does the turning point?

905
00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:16.880
<v Speaker 5>You know?

906
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:19.639
<v Speaker 2>I think thank god he was and to Columbus, Ohio,

907
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:22.280
<v Speaker 2>because I you know, it's hard to say where this

908
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:24.960
<v Speaker 2>this all would have gone had he not been pulled

909
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:28.480
<v Speaker 2>away from the situation to really realize that the only

910
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:31.840
<v Speaker 2>thing left for him to do was to call the authorities.

911
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:34.800
<v Speaker 2>And so he was only in Columbus, Ohio for a

912
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:38.559
<v Speaker 2>couple of days and just couldn't take it anymore, couldn't,

913
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:42.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, handle what might happen to Kathy, and felt

914
00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:44.960
<v Speaker 2>like if he didn't do something, he was going to

915
00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:47.840
<v Speaker 2>end up killing Kathy. And so he did end up

916
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:52.000
<v Speaker 2>calling the Tucson police and telling them what happened, and

917
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:55.639
<v Speaker 2>they the next day came and got him and flew

918
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:58.719
<v Speaker 2>him back to Tucson, and he took them out to

919
00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:02.199
<v Speaker 2>the bodies of Gretchen and when to show him And

920
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:06.400
<v Speaker 2>so that's when it all really came to a head

921
00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:09.880
<v Speaker 2>and my father was able to finally have the courage

922
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:12.400
<v Speaker 2>to do what he needed to do and call the authorities.

923
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:18.440
<v Speaker 5>He was agonizing, and he talks about that agonizing night

924
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:23.599
<v Speaker 5>and then the feeling he has after he does do

925
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:24.559
<v Speaker 5>the right thing.

926
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he had a very strong relief, like the weight

927
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:33.199
<v Speaker 2>of the world had been taken off of his shoulders.

928
00:57:34.519 --> 00:57:37.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, I do realize in reading this and now

929
00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:41.239
<v Speaker 2>understanding you know, what he was personally and emotionally going

930
00:57:41.320 --> 00:57:44.360
<v Speaker 2>through with all of this. You know, he really did

931
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:47.760
<v Speaker 2>believe that he single handily was the only one that

932
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:50.840
<v Speaker 2>was going to be able to protect this girl. And

933
00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:54.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, so to finally know that he's now come

934
00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:57.639
<v Speaker 2>out with it and it's out of his hands. And

935
00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:00.159
<v Speaker 2>at that time, he did believe that he was going

936
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:01.559
<v Speaker 2>to be in a lot of trouble and he would

937
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:04.960
<v Speaker 2>probably go to jailer prison for even trying to help

938
00:58:05.079 --> 00:58:09.000
<v Speaker 2>bury the bodies. But he was ready to just you know,

939
00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:14.159
<v Speaker 2>get this out and and protect her. And so he

940
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:20.519
<v Speaker 2>felt a complete relief once once he came out with it.

941
00:58:21.639 --> 00:58:25.960
<v Speaker 5>You also talk about too, that that he schmedi told

942
00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:29.760
<v Speaker 5>your father to grab their shoes, one of the girl's

943
00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:32.920
<v Speaker 5>shoes as well, and your father thought this was a

944
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:38.480
<v Speaker 5>sure attempt to have his fingerprints, And again also he

945
00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:41.880
<v Speaker 5>noticed something. Later. We finds out later that sunglasses that

946
00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:45.280
<v Speaker 5>he never wore happened to be at the at this

947
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:46.400
<v Speaker 5>gravesite as well.

948
00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so I don't know that my dad was putting

949
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.000
<v Speaker 2>it together at the time that night that they went

950
00:58:54.039 --> 00:58:58.719
<v Speaker 2>out there, But there was a time where Smitty had

951
00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:03.519
<v Speaker 2>turned to him they were away from Windy Wendy's body,

952
00:59:03.960 --> 00:59:07.559
<v Speaker 2>and he told my father to pull the shoe off

953
00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:09.960
<v Speaker 2>of her foot and throw it. I don't know if

954
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:12.840
<v Speaker 2>all my dad, you know, talks about is that he

955
00:59:13.239 --> 00:59:16.039
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to do that, but Charles Schmid seemed to

956
00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:19.599
<v Speaker 2>be testing him to see if he was going to

957
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:23.440
<v Speaker 2>touch the shoe, and he was afraid that if he

958
00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:25.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't do in the moment what Charles Schmid told him

959
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:27.840
<v Speaker 2>to do. You know, here they were in the desert,

960
00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:29.880
<v Speaker 2>he already killed these two girls. He thought for sure

961
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:33.519
<v Speaker 2>Charles Schmid would kill him if he didn't do as

962
00:59:33.559 --> 00:59:35.800
<v Speaker 2>he was told, and so he took the shoe off

963
00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:39.440
<v Speaker 2>of her foot and threw it. He also had told

964
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:43.079
<v Speaker 2>my dad to wipe the other girl's shoe off, which

965
00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:45.519
<v Speaker 2>my dad did do with his handkerchief and then tossed

966
00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:48.599
<v Speaker 2>the handkerchief. And then as you mentioned later when they

967
00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:50.679
<v Speaker 2>went back to the bodies and my dad took the

968
00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:54.239
<v Speaker 2>police to the bodies, a pair of my dad's sunglasses

969
00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:59.280
<v Speaker 2>were at the scene. And you know, my dad never

970
00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:01.360
<v Speaker 2>went out there. He only been out there the one

971
01:00:01.400 --> 01:00:04.239
<v Speaker 2>time at night with Charles Schmid, and he didn't understand

972
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:07.320
<v Speaker 2>how his sunglasses could have got out there. So he

973
01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:12.199
<v Speaker 2>really after the fact, realized that he believes Charles Schmid

974
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:15.199
<v Speaker 2>was starting to set it up to make him look

975
01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:18.199
<v Speaker 2>like he could have been the murder, and so he,

976
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:21.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, in hindsight, realizes that this may have been

977
01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:24.840
<v Speaker 2>all a part of Charlis Shmid's plan to pitness on

978
01:00:24.920 --> 01:00:27.960
<v Speaker 2>my father, which is what Charles Schmidd tries to do

979
01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:30.519
<v Speaker 2>once it all comes out.

980
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:35.119
<v Speaker 5>You talk about the police, once your father comes forward,

981
01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:38.119
<v Speaker 5>they also ask him to do something that is very

982
01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:42.000
<v Speaker 5>very difficult for this former friend that is suddenly turning

983
01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:45.880
<v Speaker 5>on his friend or released. He has those mixed feelings.

984
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:48.760
<v Speaker 5>What do they get him to do in terms of

985
01:00:49.239 --> 01:00:52.119
<v Speaker 5>what they call a confrontation and what happens as a

986
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:53.559
<v Speaker 5>result in that confrontation.

987
01:00:54.639 --> 01:00:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they right away at the desert, when they went

988
01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:00.679
<v Speaker 2>to the bodies, they right away started telling father that

989
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:04.480
<v Speaker 2>they wanted him to confront Charles Schmid to see what

990
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:08.199
<v Speaker 2>they could get Charles Schmid, you know, once they knew that,

991
01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:11.039
<v Speaker 2>once Charles Schmid knew my father had gone to the police,

992
01:01:11.119 --> 01:01:15.320
<v Speaker 2>that Charles Schmid might come forward and confess. And my

993
01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:18.079
<v Speaker 2>father kept saying, he's never going to confess. You know.

994
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:22.480
<v Speaker 2>My dad didn't believe that Charles Schmid would confess and

995
01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:27.480
<v Speaker 2>was afraid to confront him because, you know, he just

996
01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:30.880
<v Speaker 2>it was very hard for him to go forward to

997
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:33.480
<v Speaker 2>the police and really he felt like this would be

998
01:01:33.519 --> 01:01:35.880
<v Speaker 2>the end of it. So when I talk about that relief,

999
01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:39.039
<v Speaker 2>he felt it was because now he did his part,

1000
01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:42.119
<v Speaker 2>he let the authorities know what was going on. But

1001
01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:45.880
<v Speaker 2>now they were pushing him to go into the room

1002
01:01:46.119 --> 01:01:48.760
<v Speaker 2>where Charles Shmid was being held at the police station

1003
01:01:49.519 --> 01:01:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and to confront him so that they could try to

1004
01:01:52.920 --> 01:01:57.039
<v Speaker 2>get Schmid to confess. And it was very difficult for

1005
01:01:57.159 --> 01:01:59.960
<v Speaker 2>my father to walk into that room. And he writes

1006
01:02:00.199 --> 01:02:03.599
<v Speaker 2>about and I think my father did a great job

1007
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:06.079
<v Speaker 2>of writing his emotions in that time, because you really

1008
01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:13.440
<v Speaker 2>feel the fear that he felt walking into that interrogation

1009
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:17.599
<v Speaker 2>room and having to face Charles Schmid, and the look

1010
01:02:17.679 --> 01:02:20.880
<v Speaker 2>that Charles Schmid gives him when he walks in, knowing

1011
01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:24.039
<v Speaker 2>that my father, you know, had turned him in. And

1012
01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:28.840
<v Speaker 2>then as they sit down, Charles Schmid, you know, right

1013
01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:31.440
<v Speaker 2>away starts to try and turn the tables and say,

1014
01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:34.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, why did you do this, Richie, you know,

1015
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and basically trying to you know, make it sound as

1016
01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:41.039
<v Speaker 2>if my father had done this and was trying to

1017
01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:44.440
<v Speaker 2>depend it on Schmid. And so that was a very

1018
01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:51.599
<v Speaker 2>frightening and difficult confrontation of the two of them because

1019
01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:53.960
<v Speaker 2>now he had to look Charleis Schmid in the eye

1020
01:02:54.639 --> 01:03:00.559
<v Speaker 2>and you know, really face him after going to the

1021
01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:03.719
<v Speaker 2>police with all of the information, and my father was

1022
01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:06.119
<v Speaker 2>very afraid of Charles Schmid by then.

1023
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:13.079
<v Speaker 5>You also talk about that once Charles Schmidt is arrested

1024
01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:18.880
<v Speaker 5>from the information that your father gave that, the ordeal

1025
01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:22.400
<v Speaker 5>obviously is not over for your father. In terms of

1026
01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:26.719
<v Speaker 5>public reaction, and yeah, just public reaction. What was a

1027
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:30.639
<v Speaker 5>public reaction for somebody that was we know, heroic and

1028
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:34.920
<v Speaker 5>coming forward. What was the treatment he was getting during

1029
01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:35.360
<v Speaker 5>all of this?

1030
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:41.679
<v Speaker 2>So it was extremely negative and you basically had two

1031
01:03:41.760 --> 01:03:44.400
<v Speaker 2>different aspects of it. On the one hand, you had

1032
01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:48.840
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people speculating why didn't he come you know,

1033
01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:52.239
<v Speaker 2>forward sooner and if he wasn't involved, he would have

1034
01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:55.079
<v Speaker 2>come forward sooner, you know, and all of that story.

1035
01:03:55.760 --> 01:04:01.679
<v Speaker 2>And because Charles Schmid and Charles Schmidd defense attorney tried

1036
01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:04.480
<v Speaker 2>to claim that it was my father who really killed

1037
01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:08.960
<v Speaker 2>the Fritz sisters, there was a lot of you know,

1038
01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:12.760
<v Speaker 2>media and stories because that was a very you know,

1039
01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:15.599
<v Speaker 2>that's a great story, you know, to tell, and so

1040
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:18.880
<v Speaker 2>the newspapers, some of them really ran with that story.

1041
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:22.239
<v Speaker 2>And so you had a lot of people in Tucson

1042
01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:25.480
<v Speaker 2>who believed maybe he really did do this, or maybe

1043
01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:28.199
<v Speaker 2>he really was more involved than what he says. So

1044
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:31.920
<v Speaker 2>you had that side of it, and then surprisingly, you

1045
01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:35.840
<v Speaker 2>had this whole other side that treated my father horribly

1046
01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:41.039
<v Speaker 2>for coming forward. And so you know, my father has

1047
01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:44.360
<v Speaker 2>shared with me how you know, after this all happened

1048
01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:47.440
<v Speaker 2>and the trials were going on, you would have people

1049
01:04:47.559 --> 01:04:50.639
<v Speaker 2>going by his home and throwing things at the house

1050
01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:53.000
<v Speaker 2>and calling him a rat and a sink and a

1051
01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:57.960
<v Speaker 2>squealer and all of this stuff. And you know, instead

1052
01:04:58.119 --> 01:05:02.519
<v Speaker 2>of realizing that he came forward to stop somebody who

1053
01:05:02.599 --> 01:05:06.519
<v Speaker 2>was murdering girls, instead he was treated like he did

1054
01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:11.519
<v Speaker 2>something wrong by writing on Schmid, and so he was

1055
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:14.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of having it come at him from both angles.

1056
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:19.000
<v Speaker 2>And so it was a very traumatic and difficult time

1057
01:05:19.039 --> 01:05:25.000
<v Speaker 2>for him because he was completely treated as an outcast

1058
01:05:25.159 --> 01:05:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and a you know, I really, I honestly can't imagine

1059
01:05:30.199 --> 01:05:33.639
<v Speaker 2>going through that and having a whole city treat you.

1060
01:05:33.639 --> 01:05:35.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, he felt like the whole city was treating

1061
01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:39.320
<v Speaker 2>him a certain way, and so that was a very

1062
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:40.679
<v Speaker 2>very difficult time for him.

1063
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:46.119
<v Speaker 5>Now, these trials weren't put together, weren't lumped together, they

1064
01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:50.519
<v Speaker 5>were separate. You talk about John Saunders and Mary French

1065
01:05:51.320 --> 01:05:54.639
<v Speaker 5>and the very very disturbing testimony of these people, and

1066
01:05:54.880 --> 01:06:00.840
<v Speaker 5>it explains how this seemingly charismatic Charles Schmidt convinced these

1067
01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:04.519
<v Speaker 5>people to do what they did tell us about what

1068
01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:09.480
<v Speaker 5>they say in court, testify to about Charles Smith and

1069
01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:12.440
<v Speaker 5>murder of Alene Rowe.

1070
01:06:13.360 --> 01:06:20.679
<v Speaker 2>So both Mary and John did. Actually, Mary French did

1071
01:06:21.079 --> 01:06:25.239
<v Speaker 2>go on the stand and she did tell the whole

1072
01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:28.480
<v Speaker 2>story and how it happened and how he did convince

1073
01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:33.840
<v Speaker 2>her to get Elene Rowe to come out. Her attorney

1074
01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:37.159
<v Speaker 2>did try to claim that she because she was so

1075
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:40.280
<v Speaker 2>young and Charles Schmid was so much older, that she

1076
01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:42.800
<v Speaker 2>really couldn't be held responsible because he was so much

1077
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:45.559
<v Speaker 2>older and she was so smitten with Schmid, and so

1078
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:48.559
<v Speaker 2>they tried to, you know, really say that she was

1079
01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:51.960
<v Speaker 2>too young and innocent to really be held accountable for that.

1080
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Although she was found guilty of her part, John Saunders

1081
01:06:56.440 --> 01:07:00.159
<v Speaker 2>actually pleaded the fifth and didn't end up testifying, but

1082
01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Mary French's testimony was really enough to show that Charles

1083
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Schmid had convinced them to do this act and was

1084
01:07:12.559 --> 01:07:16.159
<v Speaker 2>clear that he was the mastermind of it and controlling

1085
01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:19.639
<v Speaker 2>the whole situation. And so the first trial was for

1086
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Gretchen and Windy, but they really counted on Mary French

1087
01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:30.519
<v Speaker 2>and John Saunders to show with the ellen Row case

1088
01:07:30.639 --> 01:07:33.599
<v Speaker 2>that he was capable of murder. And that's when it

1089
01:07:33.679 --> 01:07:39.159
<v Speaker 2>came out that that Gretchen knew about the ellen Rowe killing,

1090
01:07:39.239 --> 01:07:41.320
<v Speaker 2>which is why she kind of held it over him,

1091
01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:46.400
<v Speaker 2>and that was the reason he ended up killing her. Unfortunately, Wendy,

1092
01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:50.159
<v Speaker 2>her younger sister, just happened to be with her, So

1093
01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:55.280
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately Wendy was killed with Gretchen as well. So you know,

1094
01:07:55.559 --> 01:07:57.760
<v Speaker 2>you think about a family that had two daughters and

1095
01:07:57.800 --> 01:08:01.599
<v Speaker 2>they both were killed. You know, it's just tragic. But

1096
01:08:02.920 --> 01:08:07.199
<v Speaker 2>and then there was a lot of teenagers that came

1097
01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:09.599
<v Speaker 2>on the stand and what I really realized, and I

1098
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:12.880
<v Speaker 2>think this is where the Pied Piper of Tucson title

1099
01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:18.439
<v Speaker 2>really comes in, because so many teenagers came onto the

1100
01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:22.239
<v Speaker 2>stand and talked about Charles Schmid and these cases, and

1101
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:28.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, they were so connected to Charles Schmid and

1102
01:08:29.600 --> 01:08:34.600
<v Speaker 2>defending Charles Schmid. And there were even kids that admitted

1103
01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:39.319
<v Speaker 2>that they were planning on something to do to my father,

1104
01:08:40.279 --> 01:08:44.079
<v Speaker 2>possibly kill him, just because he came forward to the police.

1105
01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:47.880
<v Speaker 2>And so there was this whole giant protection of Charles

1106
01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:52.520
<v Speaker 2>Schmid that you really realize. You know, he had this

1107
01:08:53.079 --> 01:08:55.520
<v Speaker 2>connection with teenagers that people were willing to keep a

1108
01:08:55.560 --> 01:09:00.399
<v Speaker 2>secrets and protect him to no end.

1109
01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:04.640
<v Speaker 5>There wasn't the media talk too of again misinformation, but

1110
01:09:05.079 --> 01:09:08.479
<v Speaker 5>talk of a sixty member sex club. So how did

1111
01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:12.079
<v Speaker 5>this rumor and where did they did they derive this

1112
01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:14.680
<v Speaker 5>salacious rumor from.

1113
01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:18.640
<v Speaker 2>So there were a ton of stories that were happening

1114
01:09:18.680 --> 01:09:22.680
<v Speaker 2>at that time, and my dad talks about, you know,

1115
01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:27.720
<v Speaker 2>after this all happened, that the media was just kind

1116
01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of out of control with all of these stories, and

1117
01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:34.000
<v Speaker 2>so there were tons of stories that came out about

1118
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:36.680
<v Speaker 2>how there was, like you said, this giant sex club

1119
01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:39.000
<v Speaker 2>and that this is where this all you know, came

1120
01:09:39.039 --> 01:09:42.800
<v Speaker 2>about in these killings, and you know, all of it,

1121
01:09:43.039 --> 01:09:46.000
<v Speaker 2>according to my father, was all fabricated. There was no

1122
01:09:46.399 --> 01:09:49.000
<v Speaker 2>there was never any you know, sex club or these

1123
01:09:49.039 --> 01:09:52.159
<v Speaker 2>these things that people were talking about. But you know,

1124
01:09:52.239 --> 01:09:58.880
<v Speaker 2>a story that was already so sensational and crazy and frightening,

1125
01:09:59.319 --> 01:10:02.479
<v Speaker 2>they felt this need to even amplify it even more

1126
01:10:02.600 --> 01:10:06.479
<v Speaker 2>and to create even more drama around it, and so

1127
01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:11.560
<v Speaker 2>there were tons of different stories that were coming out

1128
01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:14.399
<v Speaker 2>that you know, I think my dad feels like it

1129
01:10:14.439 --> 01:10:18.239
<v Speaker 2>was like they had to figure out a reason why

1130
01:10:18.760 --> 01:10:21.840
<v Speaker 2>teenagers were keeping these secrets and that there had to

1131
01:10:21.840 --> 01:10:25.920
<v Speaker 2>be something more to it. But the reality is this

1132
01:10:26.079 --> 01:10:31.159
<v Speaker 2>was just a very charismatic, psychopathic man that was able

1133
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:34.319
<v Speaker 2>to get people to follow him and to keep his secrets.

1134
01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:36.920
<v Speaker 2>And but there was you know, all of these other

1135
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:42.079
<v Speaker 2>sensationalized stories were just you know, not a part of it.

1136
01:10:44.119 --> 01:10:46.840
<v Speaker 5>Now he talks about though to the second trial, and

1137
01:10:46.880 --> 01:10:53.359
<v Speaker 5>then an interesting i say, infamous attorney comes into play.

1138
01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:57.079
<v Speaker 5>So tell us how it comes that f Lee Bailey

1139
01:10:57.279 --> 01:11:02.000
<v Speaker 5>comes into the scene, and again the story looks like

1140
01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:04.920
<v Speaker 5>it's petering out. But there's much much more to this story,

1141
01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:08.039
<v Speaker 5>So tell us about Flee Billy and his contribution and

1142
01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:10.479
<v Speaker 5>what happens as a result of his representation.

1143
01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:15.720
<v Speaker 2>So right after the Gretchen and Wendy Fritz trials where

1144
01:11:15.880 --> 01:11:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Schmid was convicted to death for that, but then they

1145
01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:25.600
<v Speaker 2>right away after that had the Ellen Rowe case. Allen

1146
01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Rose's body at that point had still not been found,

1147
01:11:29.319 --> 01:11:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and Charles Schmid's attorney, his name was Kenny, he decided

1148
01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:40.760
<v Speaker 2>that he needed maybe some help trying to get this

1149
01:11:41.000 --> 01:11:44.960
<v Speaker 2>case overturned or get it thrown out. And f Lee

1150
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Bailey at that time was already becoming a really famous

1151
01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:58.279
<v Speaker 2>attorney because he had just finished the trial with if

1152
01:11:58.319 --> 01:12:01.760
<v Speaker 2>anyone had seen the movie The Fugitive, the True Case

1153
01:12:01.920 --> 01:12:06.079
<v Speaker 2>of the Fugitive, and so Sam Shepherd was his name,

1154
01:12:06.159 --> 01:12:07.960
<v Speaker 2>and so he had just come off the Sam Shepherd

1155
01:12:07.960 --> 01:12:11.359
<v Speaker 2>case and was able to get that case turned around

1156
01:12:11.479 --> 01:12:14.479
<v Speaker 2>or thrown out. And so there was a belief that

1157
01:12:15.199 --> 01:12:17.720
<v Speaker 2>Flee Bailey could be the one to really get this

1158
01:12:17.840 --> 01:12:21.600
<v Speaker 2>case thrown out, and so they hired E. Flee Bailey

1159
01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:25.960
<v Speaker 2>to come on to the case, which created a huge

1160
01:12:26.079 --> 01:12:29.520
<v Speaker 2>media buzz here in Tucson, because again, as we talked

1161
01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:33.079
<v Speaker 2>in the beginning, Tuson was a very small, you know town,

1162
01:12:33.159 --> 01:12:35.039
<v Speaker 2>not a lot going on, and then suddenly you have

1163
01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:40.479
<v Speaker 2>this giant case that have become national news, and now

1164
01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:43.479
<v Speaker 2>you've got Flee Bailey coming to be on the case.

1165
01:12:44.600 --> 01:12:47.039
<v Speaker 2>He was only here a short time. He spent a

1166
01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:49.319
<v Speaker 2>couple of days here, and as soon as he spent

1167
01:12:49.439 --> 01:12:53.479
<v Speaker 2>any time with Schmid, he knew that Schmid was guilty.

1168
01:12:53.960 --> 01:12:57.119
<v Speaker 2>And he told the defense that, you know, there was

1169
01:12:57.159 --> 01:13:00.560
<v Speaker 2>no way they were going to get him off of this,

1170
01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:05.039
<v Speaker 2>and they convinced or E. Flee Bailey convinced Charles Schmid

1171
01:13:05.439 --> 01:13:08.800
<v Speaker 2>to plead guilty to the ellen Row case because he

1172
01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:10.640
<v Speaker 2>just said there was no way he was going to

1173
01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:14.279
<v Speaker 2>get off because he was, in Flee Bailey's words, he

1174
01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:17.880
<v Speaker 2>was insane and he knew that just from spending a

1175
01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:19.119
<v Speaker 2>short time with Charles Schmid.

1176
01:13:21.279 --> 01:13:23.520
<v Speaker 5>Right. And you also talk about in March sixty six,

1177
01:13:23.640 --> 01:13:27.399
<v Speaker 5>as you say, Charles Schmidt junior, first degree murder for

1178
01:13:27.479 --> 01:13:33.119
<v Speaker 5>Gretchen Wendy Fritz death penalty gas chamber and his wife

1179
01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:36.600
<v Speaker 5>at that time, Diane fifteen years old, a sobbing at

1180
01:13:36.640 --> 01:13:43.560
<v Speaker 5>this trial. But then soon after Schmidt claimed something concerning

1181
01:13:43.720 --> 01:13:47.960
<v Speaker 5>Flee Bailey and this case takes a little twist and

1182
01:13:48.039 --> 01:13:49.399
<v Speaker 5>turn mm hmm.

1183
01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:54.600
<v Speaker 2>So after he pleaded guilty to Aline Rowe shortly after that,

1184
01:13:55.359 --> 01:13:58.520
<v Speaker 2>because Aline Rowe they found even though they had no body,

1185
01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:02.039
<v Speaker 2>they said that she was beaten over the head with rocks.

1186
01:14:02.039 --> 01:14:08.479
<v Speaker 2>And that's what Mary French testified to Charles Schmid. Never confess,

1187
01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:12.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, at first, never really confessed. He never went

1188
01:14:12.359 --> 01:14:14.359
<v Speaker 2>on the stand, and so nobody ever really heard Charles

1189
01:14:14.359 --> 01:14:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Schmid tell anything about the cases. And so then he

1190
01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:24.159
<v Speaker 2>decided that he wanted to take the police out to

1191
01:14:24.159 --> 01:14:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Elene Roe's body to prove that her skull had not

1192
01:14:28.079 --> 01:14:31.760
<v Speaker 2>been fractured. And his hope was that he could prove

1193
01:14:32.279 --> 01:14:35.560
<v Speaker 2>that the case really didn't happen the way they claimed,

1194
01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:39.239
<v Speaker 2>and that he could, you know, claim that John Saunders

1195
01:14:39.319 --> 01:14:41.199
<v Speaker 2>was the one that really killed Eleene Row and that

1196
01:14:41.239 --> 01:14:43.800
<v Speaker 2>he had nothing to do with it. So he agreed

1197
01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:47.359
<v Speaker 2>to take them out to the bodies. He said that

1198
01:14:47.479 --> 01:14:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Flee Bailey cohersed him into pleading guilty and that he

1199
01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:53.640
<v Speaker 2>really wasn't and so he drove them out to the

1200
01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:56.359
<v Speaker 2>body of Elene Row and took them to the grave.

1201
01:14:58.199 --> 01:15:01.159
<v Speaker 2>But they did find that her skull was massively fractured,

1202
01:15:01.680 --> 01:15:06.439
<v Speaker 2>and therefore it did stand that he was still guilty.

1203
01:15:08.960 --> 01:15:11.840
<v Speaker 5>You also talk about in nineteen seventy one, the US

1204
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:18.319
<v Speaker 5>Supreme Court declares capital punishment laws in Arizona unconstitutional, Schmid's

1205
01:15:18.439 --> 01:15:22.319
<v Speaker 5>sentences commuted to fifty years. Then you talk about October

1206
01:15:22.960 --> 01:15:27.359
<v Speaker 5>seventy two, you talk about Schmid disappears from his maximum

1207
01:15:27.399 --> 01:15:31.680
<v Speaker 5>security prison cell, and there's some roadblocks set up, and

1208
01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:34.520
<v Speaker 5>the police search inside and out, and they find him

1209
01:15:34.520 --> 01:15:37.079
<v Speaker 5>a few hours later hiding in the prison welding shop.

1210
01:15:37.399 --> 01:15:41.079
<v Speaker 5>Tell us what happens in November seventy two, right.

1211
01:15:40.960 --> 01:15:44.680
<v Speaker 2>So he did possibly attempt in October when they found

1212
01:15:44.760 --> 01:15:48.399
<v Speaker 2>him in the welding shop, to escape, but then in November,

1213
01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:52.920
<v Speaker 2>a month later, he did successfully escape. So, as you mentioned,

1214
01:15:52.920 --> 01:15:58.840
<v Speaker 2>his death penalty was commuted to fifty years because they

1215
01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:02.760
<v Speaker 2>found the death penalty the unconstitutional here in Arizona. And

1216
01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:07.760
<v Speaker 2>once he was no longer sentenced to death, he was

1217
01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:12.079
<v Speaker 2>treated like every other prisoner and he was actually allowed

1218
01:16:12.119 --> 01:16:14.760
<v Speaker 2>to go off of the prison grounds and work as

1219
01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:17.079
<v Speaker 2>they let prisoners do on the you know, working on

1220
01:16:17.079 --> 01:16:20.840
<v Speaker 2>the streets and things, picking up litter and stuff. So

1221
01:16:20.920 --> 01:16:24.880
<v Speaker 2>he was outside of the prison walls and ended up

1222
01:16:25.000 --> 01:16:29.439
<v Speaker 2>escaping with another triple murderer, Raymond Hudgens, And they did

1223
01:16:29.560 --> 01:16:34.880
<v Speaker 2>escape from Florence Prison, and they ended up taking several

1224
01:16:34.920 --> 01:16:41.239
<v Speaker 2>hostages from one of the little nearby towns and eventually

1225
01:16:41.279 --> 01:16:45.600
<v Speaker 2>they split up. Charles Schmid ends up heading toward Tucson,

1226
01:16:45.680 --> 01:16:49.760
<v Speaker 2>and Raymond Hudgens is found going another direction. The place

1227
01:16:49.800 --> 01:16:53.199
<v Speaker 2>at that time had reason to believe that my father

1228
01:16:53.520 --> 01:16:58.079
<v Speaker 2>might be in danger, and so I was just a

1229
01:16:58.119 --> 01:17:02.239
<v Speaker 2>small toddler at that time. But they did take my

1230
01:17:02.319 --> 01:17:05.359
<v Speaker 2>father and us and my mother and we were all

1231
01:17:05.399 --> 01:17:09.560
<v Speaker 2>put under police protection because it was believed that he

1232
01:17:09.680 --> 01:17:12.560
<v Speaker 2>was heading towards Tucson. And they did end up finding

1233
01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:16.079
<v Speaker 2>Schmid in Tucson at a rail yard, and they ended

1234
01:17:16.159 --> 01:17:21.560
<v Speaker 2>up taking him back into custody. But he did successfully

1235
01:17:22.680 --> 01:17:25.800
<v Speaker 2>escape from prison in November nineteen seventy two.

1236
01:17:27.960 --> 01:17:31.319
<v Speaker 5>You talk about now in nineteen seventy four, all those

1237
01:17:31.359 --> 01:17:35.560
<v Speaker 5>appeals are exhausted. He changes his name legally to Paul

1238
01:17:35.680 --> 01:17:39.920
<v Speaker 5>David Ashley, and then in nineteen seventy five in March,

1239
01:17:40.119 --> 01:17:42.560
<v Speaker 5>tell us what happens to him in prison?

1240
01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:48.359
<v Speaker 2>So in prison, two fellow inmates stab and beat him

1241
01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:56.640
<v Speaker 2>anywhere between twenty and forty stab wounds. They completely just

1242
01:17:57.560 --> 01:18:01.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, he ends up with a seven lung and

1243
01:18:01.319 --> 01:18:04.159
<v Speaker 2>an i that ends up having to be taken out,

1244
01:18:04.239 --> 01:18:10.640
<v Speaker 2>and you know, really just horribly stabbed in prison, and

1245
01:18:10.680 --> 01:18:15.079
<v Speaker 2>then ten days later he ends up dying from those

1246
01:18:15.600 --> 01:18:19.720
<v Speaker 2>those wounds. So he is killed by two fellow inmates.

1247
01:18:20.319 --> 01:18:23.600
<v Speaker 2>It's hard to say, you know, there's a it's never

1248
01:18:23.640 --> 01:18:27.640
<v Speaker 2>really clear exactly why they did it. The confusing thing

1249
01:18:27.760 --> 01:18:31.119
<v Speaker 2>is both of these inmates that stabbed him were not

1250
01:18:31.199 --> 01:18:34.079
<v Speaker 2>in there for anything serious, and they both would have

1251
01:18:34.279 --> 01:18:38.359
<v Speaker 2>been out of prison in less than ten years. So

1252
01:18:38.439 --> 01:18:42.680
<v Speaker 2>there is speculation as Joe Bernano had been involved when

1253
01:18:42.680 --> 01:18:45.920
<v Speaker 2>they first were looking for Gretchen and Wendy. There is

1254
01:18:45.960 --> 01:18:50.760
<v Speaker 2>some speculation that it may have been a mafia hit

1255
01:18:50.960 --> 01:18:55.159
<v Speaker 2>for the Fritz family, but it's hard to there's no

1256
01:18:55.239 --> 01:18:59.000
<v Speaker 2>real clear answers as to why these two inmates attacked

1257
01:18:59.039 --> 01:18:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and killed him.

1258
01:19:01.720 --> 01:19:04.000
<v Speaker 5>You talk about the sentences, well, I think we mentioned it,

1259
01:19:04.079 --> 01:19:07.600
<v Speaker 5>but John Saunders, nineteen years old at that time, pled

1260
01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:11.159
<v Speaker 5>guilty to secondary murder and he got a life sentence,

1261
01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:14.039
<v Speaker 5>and you talk about that that was as far as

1262
01:19:14.079 --> 01:19:16.960
<v Speaker 5>you know, about fifteen years and he was released, and

1263
01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:20.600
<v Speaker 5>then that Mary French received four to five years and

1264
01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:25.039
<v Speaker 5>then she was released in you say about three years, yes.

1265
01:19:25.119 --> 01:19:28.079
<v Speaker 2>So she did three years time and then from what

1266
01:19:28.199 --> 01:19:31.039
<v Speaker 2>we know, she told reporters that she was going to

1267
01:19:31.079 --> 01:19:34.920
<v Speaker 2>Texas when she was released. And then John Saunders. There

1268
01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:39.239
<v Speaker 2>is a John Saunders who fifteen years after sentencing was

1269
01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:44.159
<v Speaker 2>released from Florence State Prison. He didn't receive a life sentence,

1270
01:19:44.159 --> 01:19:47.159
<v Speaker 2>but about fifteen years would have been what a life

1271
01:19:47.199 --> 01:19:50.640
<v Speaker 2>sentence really, you know what you served at that time.

1272
01:19:51.000 --> 01:19:54.560
<v Speaker 2>So it's you know, it's assumed that that would be

1273
01:19:54.560 --> 01:19:57.079
<v Speaker 2>the John Saunders who did go to Floren's prison, but

1274
01:19:57.159 --> 01:19:59.520
<v Speaker 2>he was released fifteen years later.

1275
01:20:02.119 --> 01:20:05.119
<v Speaker 5>You include something that's very very interesting at the end

1276
01:20:05.159 --> 01:20:08.720
<v Speaker 5>of the book, the twenty and seventeen interview with Richard Bruns.

1277
01:20:08.760 --> 01:20:11.840
<v Speaker 5>Your father tell us a little bit about this and

1278
01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:17.279
<v Speaker 5>what is learned from this interview, So.

1279
01:20:17.319 --> 01:20:19.279
<v Speaker 2>He does share you know, I think one of the

1280
01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:23.920
<v Speaker 2>interesting things for me as a daughter to have read

1281
01:20:24.520 --> 01:20:27.560
<v Speaker 2>the story that and I think what makes this book

1282
01:20:28.079 --> 01:20:32.279
<v Speaker 2>really unique is it's written. It's written fifty years ago.

1283
01:20:32.840 --> 01:20:36.199
<v Speaker 2>If my father wrote this book today, it would not

1284
01:20:36.319 --> 01:20:39.520
<v Speaker 2>be the same story because people change after fifty years,

1285
01:20:39.560 --> 01:20:44.920
<v Speaker 2>their opinions of things and their feelings of things change.

1286
01:20:45.479 --> 01:20:49.000
<v Speaker 2>When you read the book, you really do sense that

1287
01:20:49.039 --> 01:20:51.520
<v Speaker 2>there was a big struggle with my father in that

1288
01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:57.119
<v Speaker 2>he still really cared for Charles Schmid somehow, and you know,

1289
01:20:57.159 --> 01:20:59.199
<v Speaker 2>they were really close friends, and this was a real

1290
01:20:59.239 --> 01:21:04.359
<v Speaker 2>big struggle for him, you know, in in doing the

1291
01:21:04.560 --> 01:21:09.159
<v Speaker 2>interview to kind of update the reader on my father, now,

1292
01:21:10.119 --> 01:21:13.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, one thing that I really gather is that

1293
01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:16.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, he he has a much more cynical feeling

1294
01:21:16.600 --> 01:21:20.720
<v Speaker 2>toward Charles Schmid now than maybe he even did when

1295
01:21:20.760 --> 01:21:23.359
<v Speaker 2>he wrote this so fresh and new after the cases.

1296
01:21:24.720 --> 01:21:28.800
<v Speaker 2>But he does share in his interview, you know, the

1297
01:21:28.840 --> 01:21:32.239
<v Speaker 2>things that happen after the cases and the struggles he

1298
01:21:32.359 --> 01:21:36.279
<v Speaker 2>had trying to you know, he had he had married

1299
01:21:36.279 --> 01:21:39.319
<v Speaker 2>shortly actually during one of the trials, the second trial

1300
01:21:39.359 --> 01:21:43.079
<v Speaker 2>he married. He had my older sister, and so he

1301
01:21:43.159 --> 01:21:47.239
<v Speaker 2>was trying to start a family and really struggled in Tucson.

1302
01:21:47.760 --> 01:21:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Every time he got a job and people would find

1303
01:21:50.119 --> 01:21:52.960
<v Speaker 2>out who he is, he would get fired. He was

1304
01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:56.039
<v Speaker 2>just really having a hard time moving forward in his

1305
01:21:56.079 --> 01:22:00.439
<v Speaker 2>life and moving forward from these cases. He even you know,

1306
01:22:00.520 --> 01:22:04.079
<v Speaker 2>tried to go to Phoenix to find work there. Eventually

1307
01:22:04.359 --> 01:22:09.199
<v Speaker 2>they did stay here and settle in Tucson. He eventually

1308
01:22:09.720 --> 01:22:13.279
<v Speaker 2>did go to the u of A and become a teacher,

1309
01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:16.800
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he was able to move forward forward

1310
01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:21.119
<v Speaker 2>in his life and you know, with a wonderful, loving father,

1311
01:22:21.399 --> 01:22:24.680
<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's amazing us growing up, this wasn't

1312
01:22:24.720 --> 01:22:28.119
<v Speaker 2>a part of our history at all, because it just

1313
01:22:28.199 --> 01:22:31.520
<v Speaker 2>wasn't something that was talked about. And and so reading

1314
01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:33.399
<v Speaker 2>this book, I think for me that's what was so

1315
01:22:35.560 --> 01:22:38.600
<v Speaker 2>surprising to me is not even knowing all of this

1316
01:22:38.760 --> 01:22:41.920
<v Speaker 2>had happened, and then to read it from my dad's perspective.

1317
01:22:43.159 --> 01:22:46.039
<v Speaker 2>But he just talks in the interview about, you know,

1318
01:22:46.119 --> 01:22:49.600
<v Speaker 2>how he moved forward and you know, his life after

1319
01:22:50.039 --> 01:22:52.079
<v Speaker 2>the trials.

1320
01:22:52.840 --> 01:22:57.359
<v Speaker 5>There's an interesting story in there that's very, very demonstrative

1321
01:22:57.399 --> 01:23:01.319
<v Speaker 5>and very visual, is that you her father was hitchhiking,

1322
01:23:02.560 --> 01:23:05.439
<v Speaker 5>still live in that home and hitch hiking for work,

1323
01:23:06.159 --> 01:23:10.640
<v Speaker 5>and there there is an event that is very that

1324
01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:13.840
<v Speaker 5>you know, it probably stays with him today, no doubt.

1325
01:23:15.680 --> 01:23:18.079
<v Speaker 5>So tell us about this fork in the road incident

1326
01:23:19.520 --> 01:23:20.399
<v Speaker 5>he was.

1327
01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:22.960
<v Speaker 2>It was when he decided he was going to hitchhike

1328
01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:26.319
<v Speaker 2>to Phoenix. He didn't have a car, so he was

1329
01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:30.840
<v Speaker 2>hitch hiking to Phoenix to find work. And there was

1330
01:23:30.880 --> 01:23:33.159
<v Speaker 2>a small town that at that time you had to

1331
01:23:33.239 --> 01:23:36.479
<v Speaker 2>kind of travel through because our main highway hadn't been

1332
01:23:36.520 --> 01:23:39.039
<v Speaker 2>built yet. And so the small town he had been

1333
01:23:39.039 --> 01:23:42.479
<v Speaker 2>traveling through to get to Phoenix and was dropped off

1334
01:23:43.239 --> 01:23:46.159
<v Speaker 2>there and so was waiting for another ride from that point,

1335
01:23:46.920 --> 01:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>and he was just waiting for a car to come

1336
01:23:50.000 --> 01:23:55.520
<v Speaker 2>by to you know, continue hitchhiking along. And he on

1337
01:23:55.640 --> 01:23:58.159
<v Speaker 2>that same day that he was hitch hiking to Phoenix

1338
01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:02.119
<v Speaker 2>from Tucson, it was the same day that Charles Schmid

1339
01:24:02.319 --> 01:24:07.439
<v Speaker 2>was being transferred from Tucson to Florence State Prison, which

1340
01:24:07.479 --> 01:24:09.359
<v Speaker 2>you had to go through that same small town to

1341
01:24:09.359 --> 01:24:12.439
<v Speaker 2>get the Floren's State Prison. And as he was sitting

1342
01:24:12.439 --> 01:24:16.159
<v Speaker 2>there waiting for a ride, he saw an unmarked police

1343
01:24:16.239 --> 01:24:19.640
<v Speaker 2>vehicle coming down the road, and it turned out that

1344
01:24:19.720 --> 01:24:23.199
<v Speaker 2>it actually was the car that was traveling with Charles

1345
01:24:23.199 --> 01:24:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Schmid in the back seat. And he watched the car

1346
01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:29.920
<v Speaker 2>go by, you know, with Charles Schmid, and you know,

1347
01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:33.199
<v Speaker 2>he writes about and again the way he writes that

1348
01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:35.279
<v Speaker 2>I can't tell the story the way you know that

1349
01:24:35.479 --> 01:24:39.039
<v Speaker 2>he shares his emotion in that, but you know, to

1350
01:24:39.119 --> 01:24:42.359
<v Speaker 2>be standing there trying to move forward in his life

1351
01:24:42.359 --> 01:24:45.479
<v Speaker 2>and to have that vehicle drive by with Charles Schmid

1352
01:24:45.560 --> 01:24:48.079
<v Speaker 2>in the back seat, who kind of looked past him

1353
01:24:48.119 --> 01:24:51.640
<v Speaker 2>but didn't seem to really register, you know, his mind

1354
01:24:51.640 --> 01:24:55.079
<v Speaker 2>seemed to be somewhere completely different. But he watched him

1355
01:24:55.159 --> 01:24:59.600
<v Speaker 2>drive by, and it really was, what he says, one

1356
01:24:59.640 --> 01:25:02.079
<v Speaker 2>of the most traumatic moments of his life. It was just,

1357
01:25:03.720 --> 01:25:06.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, in fact, he couldn't even you know, he

1358
01:25:06.399 --> 01:25:08.560
<v Speaker 2>told me he couldn't even keep going to Phoenix. He

1359
01:25:08.680 --> 01:25:10.680
<v Speaker 2>ended up turning around and coming back to Tucson because

1360
01:25:10.680 --> 01:25:13.720
<v Speaker 2>he was so thrown and so shocked that this just happened.

1361
01:25:14.079 --> 01:25:17.960
<v Speaker 2>And so it definitely was a traumatic moment, and you know,

1362
01:25:18.119 --> 01:25:24.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of very almost poetic the way this, you know,

1363
01:25:24.319 --> 01:25:28.600
<v Speaker 2>ends with them each going their separate ways, and just

1364
01:25:28.640 --> 01:25:30.279
<v Speaker 2>an unbelievable moment. Really.

1365
01:25:32.880 --> 01:25:35.479
<v Speaker 5>You also talk about your father and the other characters,

1366
01:25:35.520 --> 01:25:41.119
<v Speaker 5>Mary French, John Saunders, Paul g what happens with in

1367
01:25:41.279 --> 01:25:44.640
<v Speaker 5>terms of speaking to those people again.

1368
01:25:46.159 --> 01:25:49.079
<v Speaker 2>He really doesn't ever speak to them again. Now he does.

1369
01:25:51.479 --> 01:25:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Cafi continued to live in Tucson as well, and for

1370
01:25:59.199 --> 01:26:01.920
<v Speaker 2>a couple of different times, my father does end up

1371
01:26:01.960 --> 01:26:07.039
<v Speaker 2>seeing Kathy different places. They really just looked at each other.

1372
01:26:07.560 --> 01:26:13.159
<v Speaker 2>They didn't say anything. They've never spoken again. And Paul

1373
01:26:14.720 --> 01:26:17.359
<v Speaker 2>ended up a at least at some point. He was

1374
01:26:17.399 --> 01:26:20.800
<v Speaker 2>a delivery driver who actually delivered something to a print

1375
01:26:20.800 --> 01:26:22.840
<v Speaker 2>shop that my father was working at here in town,

1376
01:26:23.479 --> 01:26:26.840
<v Speaker 2>and they saw each other. And so each time he

1377
01:26:27.000 --> 01:26:31.039
<v Speaker 2>saw these two people, I think there was you know,

1378
01:26:31.920 --> 01:26:34.319
<v Speaker 2>I think all of them wanted to move forward from

1379
01:26:34.560 --> 01:26:37.520
<v Speaker 2>these cases and the story, and so they see each

1380
01:26:37.520 --> 01:26:40.720
<v Speaker 2>other that they never say anything to each other, and

1381
01:26:41.920 --> 01:26:44.720
<v Speaker 2>then over time they just never did see each other again.

1382
01:26:45.239 --> 01:26:46.960
<v Speaker 2>So it could be that they just got older and

1383
01:26:47.000 --> 01:26:49.359
<v Speaker 2>maybe they saw each other but didn't recognize each other.

1384
01:26:49.399 --> 01:26:53.159
<v Speaker 2>But you know, my understanding is that Kathy still lives

1385
01:26:53.159 --> 01:26:55.760
<v Speaker 2>here in Tucson, So you know, it's hard to say

1386
01:26:55.760 --> 01:26:58.199
<v Speaker 2>they could have seen each other and not known, but

1387
01:26:59.039 --> 01:27:01.960
<v Speaker 2>they all just, you know, kind of moved forward.

1388
01:27:04.359 --> 01:27:09.000
<v Speaker 5>You say, this affected the city of Tucson, but memories fade.

1389
01:27:09.640 --> 01:27:14.359
<v Speaker 5>But this story has been revived several times over the years,

1390
01:27:14.399 --> 01:27:16.880
<v Speaker 5>hasn't it. And then you say that, yeah, your father

1391
01:27:17.119 --> 01:27:22.039
<v Speaker 5>thinks it's inaccurate and incomplete, but it has it has

1392
01:27:22.079 --> 01:27:24.039
<v Speaker 5>not gone away, this story, has it.

1393
01:27:24.039 --> 01:27:26.720
<v Speaker 2>It hasn't and you know what always confused my father's

1394
01:27:27.039 --> 01:27:29.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, he says that he doesn't understand there's so

1395
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:35.000
<v Speaker 2>many cases and so many stories of serial killers that

1396
01:27:35.399 --> 01:27:38.920
<v Speaker 2>killed many more people, you know, and are much more

1397
01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:45.640
<v Speaker 2>I guess, over the top stories, and he never quite

1398
01:27:45.680 --> 01:27:48.840
<v Speaker 2>understood what made what makes the story so interesting that

1399
01:27:48.880 --> 01:27:52.479
<v Speaker 2>people keep bringing it up. And I really think it

1400
01:27:52.479 --> 01:27:55.199
<v Speaker 2>comes down to the fact that, you know, you're talking

1401
01:27:55.319 --> 01:27:59.920
<v Speaker 2>about the town of Tucson that was such an innocent place,

1402
01:28:00.720 --> 01:28:06.680
<v Speaker 2>and you know, Charles Schmid. These murders happened before Charles Manson,

1403
01:28:07.199 --> 01:28:10.680
<v Speaker 2>and so this idea that somebody could get a following

1404
01:28:10.760 --> 01:28:15.760
<v Speaker 2>and get teenagers to murder with him. And then when

1405
01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:17.960
<v Speaker 2>you look at the pictures of Charles Schmid and just

1406
01:28:18.039 --> 01:28:22.159
<v Speaker 2>see how you know, odd he was and how odd

1407
01:28:22.199 --> 01:28:25.720
<v Speaker 2>he looked. I think there's so many pieces to this story.

1408
01:28:25.880 --> 01:28:28.399
<v Speaker 2>And then for my father's piece in it to have

1409
01:28:28.439 --> 01:28:31.359
<v Speaker 2>this question mark of you know, you have this other

1410
01:28:31.439 --> 01:28:35.199
<v Speaker 2>person that had this connection with Charles Schmid, and so

1411
01:28:35.279 --> 01:28:39.760
<v Speaker 2>I think it all creates just a really intriguing story

1412
01:28:39.760 --> 01:28:44.239
<v Speaker 2>that keeps, you know, surfacing, because I do think it

1413
01:28:44.279 --> 01:28:49.560
<v Speaker 2>was just so unique for the time, and while you know,

1414
01:28:49.920 --> 01:28:52.039
<v Speaker 2>I just I do think it probably is going to

1415
01:28:52.079 --> 01:28:55.199
<v Speaker 2>just keep coming to the surface. It's been fifty years

1416
01:28:55.239 --> 01:28:57.319
<v Speaker 2>and it's you know, still coming to the surface, which

1417
01:28:57.720 --> 01:29:00.680
<v Speaker 2>is again why I really am glad that my father

1418
01:29:00.840 --> 01:29:05.239
<v Speaker 2>agreed to have his story out there, because at least

1419
01:29:05.399 --> 01:29:09.359
<v Speaker 2>his side can be known and heard, and I think

1420
01:29:09.399 --> 01:29:12.359
<v Speaker 2>that's so important for my father. As a daughter, I

1421
01:29:12.439 --> 01:29:13.680
<v Speaker 2>want that for him.

1422
01:29:15.199 --> 01:29:19.600
<v Speaker 5>It seems that this story is prior to some of

1423
01:29:19.640 --> 01:29:23.319
<v Speaker 5>the other stories that are them an ad famous where

1424
01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:30.159
<v Speaker 5>teenagers have the phenomena of having at least an initial

1425
01:29:30.199 --> 01:29:32.920
<v Speaker 5>loyalty to their friends not to immediately run to the

1426
01:29:32.920 --> 01:29:37.079
<v Speaker 5>police when they've seen something like this, like murders. And

1427
01:29:37.720 --> 01:29:43.560
<v Speaker 5>also the idea that your father was criticized because he

1428
01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:45.840
<v Speaker 5>didn't come forward immediately. They said, well, why did it

1429
01:29:45.880 --> 01:29:48.319
<v Speaker 5>take a couple months? And so your father was always

1430
01:29:48.479 --> 01:29:52.039
<v Speaker 5>questioned about why why he didn't do something sooner.

1431
01:29:52.840 --> 01:29:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think the only thing that I would

1432
01:29:56.000 --> 01:29:58.600
<v Speaker 2>encourage people to think about, you know, when you hear

1433
01:29:58.640 --> 01:30:01.840
<v Speaker 2>this story or read the story, is and I mentioned

1434
01:30:01.880 --> 01:30:06.239
<v Speaker 2>it before, this was a different time when you know nowadays,

1435
01:30:06.319 --> 01:30:10.079
<v Speaker 2>if if I if I have a friend that confides

1436
01:30:10.079 --> 01:30:12.640
<v Speaker 2>in me that they murdered somebody, and I go to

1437
01:30:12.680 --> 01:30:17.399
<v Speaker 2>the police. You know, nowadays, if somebody knows who the

1438
01:30:17.439 --> 01:30:21.159
<v Speaker 2>suspect is, there's all of these dots that they can connect.

1439
01:30:21.359 --> 01:30:25.479
<v Speaker 2>There's you know, computers, and there's cell phone records and

1440
01:30:26.159 --> 01:30:29.159
<v Speaker 2>DNA and all of this. This was a time when

1441
01:30:29.720 --> 01:30:33.600
<v Speaker 2>all my father had was a story, and nobody knows

1442
01:30:33.680 --> 01:30:35.479
<v Speaker 2>what would have come of that if he did go

1443
01:30:35.520 --> 01:30:39.359
<v Speaker 2>to the police. He had no proof of anything, you know,

1444
01:30:39.520 --> 01:30:41.880
<v Speaker 2>up into the time that he was shown the two bodies,

1445
01:30:42.399 --> 01:30:46.800
<v Speaker 2>and so it's easy from an outsider's perspective to look

1446
01:30:46.840 --> 01:30:49.119
<v Speaker 2>in and go, oh, well, you know, if he wasn't

1447
01:30:49.199 --> 01:30:51.159
<v Speaker 2>guilty of something, he would have gone to the police

1448
01:30:51.239 --> 01:30:54.199
<v Speaker 2>right away. But the truth is, you know, he didn't

1449
01:30:54.239 --> 01:30:56.960
<v Speaker 2>have a lot to share except for a story, and

1450
01:30:57.079 --> 01:30:59.520
<v Speaker 2>at that time, you know, there wasn't a lot for

1451
01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:01.920
<v Speaker 2>police to put together. And so it would have been

1452
01:31:01.960 --> 01:31:06.359
<v Speaker 2>my father's word against Charles Schmid's word, and my father

1453
01:31:06.359 --> 01:31:08.560
<v Speaker 2>would have probably put himself into a lot of danger

1454
01:31:08.600 --> 01:31:10.399
<v Speaker 2>at that time, or at least that I'm sure he

1455
01:31:10.479 --> 01:31:13.920
<v Speaker 2>was fearful of that. So I would just you know,

1456
01:31:14.479 --> 01:31:17.479
<v Speaker 2>ask people to kind of see it for the time

1457
01:31:17.520 --> 01:31:20.720
<v Speaker 2>that it was and understand as a young man, you

1458
01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:23.640
<v Speaker 2>know what you know It's easy to look from an

1459
01:31:23.640 --> 01:31:25.600
<v Speaker 2>outside and say that that's what you would have done,

1460
01:31:25.640 --> 01:31:27.880
<v Speaker 2>but you know it wasn't as simple as that.

1461
01:31:29.720 --> 01:31:33.520
<v Speaker 5>There's a crucial scene in this book, the defining moment

1462
01:31:33.680 --> 01:31:36.880
<v Speaker 5>for your father, where he knows this information. He has

1463
01:31:36.960 --> 01:31:40.359
<v Speaker 5>told this information again, he's not quite sure if this

1464
01:31:40.439 --> 01:31:44.279
<v Speaker 5>isn't just part of elaborate lies. But then he does

1465
01:31:44.319 --> 01:31:48.840
<v Speaker 5>the test himself so that he knows himself in his

1466
01:31:48.920 --> 01:31:52.079
<v Speaker 5>heart of hearts and asks to see those bodies. So

1467
01:31:52.119 --> 01:31:57.039
<v Speaker 5>he's very clever and genius in being able to do

1468
01:31:57.079 --> 01:31:59.520
<v Speaker 5>something that will prove it to himself. And then once

1469
01:31:59.640 --> 01:32:05.279
<v Speaker 5>that has proven to himself, he does the appropriate thing. Yes,

1470
01:32:08.399 --> 01:32:11.760
<v Speaker 5>very interesting. Yes, I want to thank you very much

1471
01:32:11.880 --> 01:32:15.079
<v Speaker 5>Lisa as Bitch for coming on and talking about your

1472
01:32:15.079 --> 01:32:19.600
<v Speaker 5>father's book. I A Squealer, The Insider's Account of the

1473
01:32:19.640 --> 01:32:22.640
<v Speaker 5>Pied Piper of Tucson Murders. For those that might want

1474
01:32:22.680 --> 01:32:25.039
<v Speaker 5>to do you have a Facebook page or a website

1475
01:32:25.159 --> 01:32:28.039
<v Speaker 5>for the book, how might people you go to?

1476
01:32:29.640 --> 01:32:32.680
<v Speaker 2>If you go to AA squealer dot com is the

1477
01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:36.800
<v Speaker 2>website for the book, and there's a book trailer there.

1478
01:32:36.840 --> 01:32:40.239
<v Speaker 2>There's other things about the book and the story, and

1479
01:32:40.560 --> 01:32:45.399
<v Speaker 2>there is links to by the book on Amazon, Barnes

1480
01:32:45.439 --> 01:32:48.079
<v Speaker 2>and Noble, but you can pretty much find the book

1481
01:32:48.119 --> 01:32:51.159
<v Speaker 2>anywhere books are sold. And I just want to tell

1482
01:32:51.199 --> 01:32:55.439
<v Speaker 2>you thank you so much for allowing me this opportunity

1483
01:32:55.479 --> 01:32:56.399
<v Speaker 2>to share the story.

1484
01:32:57.920 --> 01:33:00.520
<v Speaker 5>Thank you, it has been a pleasure. It is an

1485
01:33:00.520 --> 01:33:03.840
<v Speaker 5>incredible story and I'm glad that you and your sisters

1486
01:33:03.880 --> 01:33:07.000
<v Speaker 5>brought this incredible story to light on. Behalf of your

1487
01:33:07.000 --> 01:33:09.399
<v Speaker 5>Father is a book that needs to be read. Thank

1488
01:33:09.439 --> 01:33:12.840
<v Speaker 5>you so much. Hope to speak to you again. Good

1489
01:33:12.840 --> 01:33:16.000
<v Speaker 5>thank you, Dan, thank you, good night.

1490
01:33:16.159 --> 01:33:16.479
<v Speaker 2>Thank you