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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. The year was nineteen sixty five. The Beatles,
Speaker 5: Elvis Presley and the Righteous Brothers filled the airwaves. Television
Speaker 5: shows like the Adventures of Oz and Harriet and The
Speaker 5: Andy Griffith Show mirrored the innocence of life in the
Speaker 5: dusty city of Tucson, Arizona. But the sun baked desert
Speaker 5: surrounding Tucson was hiding a sinister secret. A psychopath named
Speaker 5: Charles Schmidt, later nicknamed the Pied Piper of Tucson by
Speaker 5: Life magazine, would steal that innocence away, along with the
Speaker 5: lives of three beautiful teenage girls. In this first hand account,
Speaker 5: written in nineteen sixty seven, Richard Bruns shares the evolution
Speaker 5: of his friendship with Schmidt, the details of getting involved
Speaker 5: way in over his head, and how he finally summoned
Speaker 5: the courage to blow the whistle and the deadly rampage
Speaker 5: that shocked the nation and changed the city of Tucson forever.
Speaker 5: The book they were featuring this evening is I a Squealer,
Speaker 5: The Insider's account of the Pied Piper of Tucson Murders,
Speaker 5: with my special guests, journalist and author Lisa Espitch. Welcome
Speaker 5: to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing
Speaker 5: to this interview.
Speaker 2: Lisa Spitch, Hi, Dan, thank you for inviting me on.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, very very interesting story. Indeed, first off,
Speaker 5: we spoke earlier and tell us about the genesis of
Speaker 5: this book, how it came to be that this book
Speaker 5: from nineteen sixty seven. Tell us was it originally published,
Speaker 5: tell us what you did, what was the discovery was,
Speaker 5: and how it came to be this book I a Squealer.
Speaker 2: My father in nineteen sixty seven wrote the book. He
Speaker 2: was the star witness for the prosecution. He's the one
Speaker 2: that blew the whistle on the case. And he was
Speaker 2: a friend of Schmid and he wrote the story to
Speaker 2: clarify his side of the story because he was very
Speaker 2: involved at the time he was twenty years old, didn't
Speaker 2: really know what to do with it. Once he was
Speaker 2: done writing it, really was ready to move forward with
Speaker 2: his life, and so it got boxed away. Forty years later,
Speaker 2: which was about ten years ago, my sisters and I
Speaker 2: were at my mother's home and we were going through
Speaker 2: old photos and my mother had us going through old
Speaker 2: boxes of school papers and art from when we were kids,
Speaker 2: and my sister pulled out a bound manuscript and my
Speaker 2: mother said, oh, that's the story your father wrote about
Speaker 2: the Charles Schmid cases. Well, we weren't aware that he
Speaker 2: ever wrote anything about it. We also knew very little
Speaker 2: about the cases because it's not something that was really
Speaker 2: that my parents talked to us about that as we
Speaker 2: were growing up. So I was very intrigued. I took
Speaker 2: it home and read it right away and was really
Speaker 2: overcome with the story, realizing everything that my father had
Speaker 2: gone through and how he was so much more involved
Speaker 2: with Schmid and these cases than I ever knew. And
Speaker 2: I really thought the way he wrote his story was beautiful,
Speaker 2: just how he wrote, and I went to him with
Speaker 2: it and, you know, shared with him that we had
Speaker 2: the book and that I had read it. I think
Speaker 2: he thought by now the book had completely disappeared forty
Speaker 2: years later. You know, you assume things just get thrown out,
Speaker 2: and he really just wanted it back. At that time.
Speaker 2: I think he was surprised that it still existed and
Speaker 2: surprised that I had just read it, and so I
Speaker 2: gave it back to him, and more time passed. Eventually
Speaker 2: it was brought up again, and I really my two
Speaker 2: other sisters had never gotten a chance to read the book,
Speaker 2: and so I wanted them to be able to read it.
Speaker 2: But he said at that time that he couldn't find it.
Speaker 2: He didn't know what he did with it. He may
Speaker 2: have thrown it out. So we were pretty devastated because
Speaker 2: this was a piece of his history that could never
Speaker 2: be retrieved again. And so but moved forward. And then
Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen we were helping him to move and
Speaker 2: my sister found the manuscript and so he allowed me
Speaker 2: to take it back and hold on to it. And
Speaker 2: I mentioned to him again that you know, you really
Speaker 2: should share your story with the world. I mean, this
Speaker 2: is your side that's never been shared before. And he
Speaker 2: didn't have any interest in doing that. He didn't want
Speaker 2: to open this all back up, But then recently, over
Speaker 2: the past couple of years, the story kept coming to
Speaker 2: the surface. Local media did a few stories on the
Speaker 2: Charle Schmid cases again, which kind of brought it back up.
Speaker 2: And then most recently, the Discovery Channel did on a
Speaker 2: crime the ID on Crime or Crime on ID. They
Speaker 2: did a story on the Pipe Piper and of Tucson,
Speaker 2: and my dad was really frustrated at that episode because
Speaker 2: they portrayed him in such an over the top way,
Speaker 2: and they also, according to my dad, you know, some
Speaker 2: of the facts were just almost fabricated. There were things
Speaker 2: that they talked about that just didn't happen. And I
Speaker 2: said to him, you know, again, you have your story
Speaker 2: available to share. If anyone's interested in this, your side
Speaker 2: should be out there with all the other resources, and
Speaker 2: he finally agreed. And so at that point I had
Speaker 2: already written my own book in twenty ten, and so
Speaker 2: I had the connections available to get it out there,
Speaker 2: and so Twin Feather Publishing here in Tucson published it.
Speaker 2: It released on March twentieth of this year, and so
Speaker 2: it's been an exciting process.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I'm no doubt. Now you talk a little bit
Speaker 5: about Tucson at that time in the eighties, and maybe
Speaker 5: you could tell us a little bit about the area
Speaker 5: that we're talking about, the neighborhood or the area of
Speaker 5: Tucson we're talking about, but also your father tell us
Speaker 5: when this story goes on, what is your age or
Speaker 5: your father before we talk about how he met his
Speaker 5: friend Charles Schmid.
Speaker 2: So you mean in the sixties when he was here
Speaker 2: before this all started.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, Okay, so.
Speaker 2: Here in Tucson. You know, Tucson was not a huge
Speaker 2: city at that point. It really would be considered sort
Speaker 2: of an old dust town. It wasn't very big and
Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot for kids to do. My father
Speaker 2: was thirteen when he moved out here with his family
Speaker 2: from Columbus, Ohio, and so the area that we're talking
Speaker 2: about there. I don't know what the actual number of
Speaker 2: people living in Tucson at that time was, but it
Speaker 2: certainly was not a big city, and you know, it
Speaker 2: was very much if you think of an innocent town.
Speaker 2: It reminds me of you know you mentioned at the beginning,
Speaker 2: you know, like the show, the Andy Griffith Show, you know,
Speaker 2: something like that, sort of an old dusty town where
Speaker 2: you know, it was very innocent and there wasn't a
Speaker 2: whole lot going on.
Speaker 5: When you talk about your father at that time, what
Speaker 5: was he really like in terms of how experienced or
Speaker 5: inclined to be a bad guy or a good guy.
Speaker 5: What was he really like at that time?
Speaker 2: So he had met Charles Schmid at the age of fifteen,
Speaker 2: he wasn't a real experienced kid. Now I do know
Speaker 2: that he had. He met Charles Schmid right after he
Speaker 2: had gotten out of a reform school, and he was
Speaker 2: really sent to the reform school because he was just
Speaker 2: sort of unruly. He was just starting to get in trouble.
Speaker 2: Nothing serious, but at that time, you know, his parents
Speaker 2: felt like that was, you know, the right thing to do.
Speaker 2: He got sent to a reform school to just sort
Speaker 2: of get his life streightened out, and so he'd had
Speaker 2: a rebellious side definitely when he got out of reform school.
Speaker 2: It was shortly after that that he met Charles Schmid.
Speaker 2: So I would say that my dad at that time
Speaker 2: was fairly innocent in the fact that what he was
Speaker 2: getting in trouble for was nothing that you would consider
Speaker 2: really serious. But he definitely had a rebellious side that
Speaker 2: his parents maybe struggled a little bit with.
Speaker 5: And the impression that your father had and the basically
Speaker 5: the persona that people knew of Charles Schmidt was what
Speaker 5: at that time. You talk about the transformation years later,
Speaker 5: a few shorts years later, but at that time, what
Speaker 5: was he like? What was the impression that other people
Speaker 5: and young people had of him, and even parents had
Speaker 5: of Charles Schmid.
Speaker 2: So my father was fifteen when he met Charles Schmid.
Speaker 2: Charles Schmid was eighteen, so he was three years older
Speaker 2: than my father, and Charles Schmid had dropped out of school,
Speaker 2: so he was a grown man at that point, but
Speaker 2: he really still hung out with high schoolers and teenagers.
Speaker 2: He had a very big following here in Tucson, Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid did when my father first met him. He came
Speaker 2: from a wealthy family. He was adopted that came from
Speaker 2: a very wealthy family that owned a nursing home here
Speaker 2: in town, and they gave Charles Schmid pretty much everything
Speaker 2: he wanted. He had a beautiful, brand new convertible car.
Speaker 2: He had a three hundred dollars a month allowance at
Speaker 2: that time, which in nineteen sixty four three hundred dollars
Speaker 2: was a lot of money, and so he had all
Speaker 2: of this money to spend and to show off, and
Speaker 2: he's threw parties and he always had girls around. He
Speaker 2: was a very athletic guy. He was a gymnast in
Speaker 2: high school before he had dropped out, and a very
Speaker 2: successful gymnast that led Tucson High School into a championship.
Speaker 2: And he was a good looking guy, very charismatic. He
Speaker 2: was very short, he was five to three, which for
Speaker 2: you know, a man is quite short, but very good
Speaker 2: looking with very piercing eyes. And the girls just really
Speaker 2: were attracted to him, and there was something just very
Speaker 2: charismatic about him. And from what my father explains, parents
Speaker 2: really liked Charles Schmid too. He had this again very
Speaker 2: charismatic and also parents trusted him. They kind of looked
Speaker 2: to him as a role mom for their kids, and
Speaker 2: so it was very interesting dynamic between all of the
Speaker 2: teenagers and him. Even though he was older, they very
Speaker 2: much followed him and looked up to him. And so
Speaker 2: when my father met him and Charles Schmid started to
Speaker 2: befriend him, you know, I can see why my father
Speaker 2: was drawn to that friendship because, you know, here's somebody
Speaker 2: who is much older with girls all around, you know,
Speaker 2: always at parties, gorgeous car and so it was a
Speaker 2: great friend in my dad's view to have and hang
Speaker 2: out with.
Speaker 5: You talk about that they originally met through a person.
Speaker 5: Did you call Paul G? Just last name G? And
Speaker 5: that would nearly end this story five years before you
Speaker 5: talk about who Paul G was and his earlier background,
Speaker 5: not so earlier background. What was Paul G involved with
Speaker 5: the police force.
Speaker 2: So Paul when he was younger, and my father met
Speaker 2: Paul at the reform school that my father was at.
Speaker 2: But Paul had been up in a mountain area where
Speaker 2: people would hang out with water and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and him and another friend, and I believe Paul was
Speaker 2: about the same age as Charles Schmid, so at that
Speaker 2: time when this happened, he would have been about fifteen.
Speaker 2: And him and another guy decided that they wanted to
Speaker 2: rob somebody at gunpoint to get their money, and so
Speaker 2: they stopped a car on the road there wasn't any
Speaker 2: other cars around, and to rob this man who was
Speaker 2: driving the car. Somehow, in the midst of that, the gun,
Speaker 2: my understanding is, accidentally went off and killed this man.
Speaker 2: And so I don't think that they went into it
Speaker 2: intending to kill him, but they did end up killing
Speaker 2: this man and so it was a bungled robbery and
Speaker 2: ended up a murder. He was under age and so
Speaker 2: he definitely did jail time for it. But that was
Speaker 2: his background. Paul g.
Speaker 5: You have that the his character was and like you say,
Speaker 5: you talk about in this that your father noticed this
Speaker 5: real decline in his behavior and his character and some
Speaker 5: of the things that he admired about him weren't there
Speaker 5: a few years later, but you talk about it. He
Speaker 5: had these privileges from his parents, but then their parents' business,
Speaker 5: this nursing home, fell on bad economic times. So what
Speaker 5: happens in terms of his character and his status when
Speaker 5: you know this allowance and all these perks are no more.
Speaker 2: Yes, so yes, they they're nursing him. Nursing home went
Speaker 2: into foreclosure and they ended up with a different nursing
Speaker 2: home across town, but much more lower scale, not as
Speaker 2: so they were not as well off anymore. The one
Speaker 2: thing that Charles Schmid did have at that new home
Speaker 2: that they moved into is there was a small cottage
Speaker 2: home on the property, and so Charles Schmid got his
Speaker 2: own house and so he was able to kind of
Speaker 2: throw his own parties and be his own man without
Speaker 2: his parents in the same home, so that would be
Speaker 2: the one perk he had, But he did lose all
Speaker 2: of this money in the great car that he had.
Speaker 2: And Charles Schmid, from reading my dad's story and talking
Speaker 2: to my dad, clearly was starting to struggle with his
Speaker 2: own persona and who he was. He was still so
Speaker 2: attached to this teenage world yet he was a grown man,
Speaker 2: and instead of being able to, I guess, move on
Speaker 2: into being a real man and moving on with his life,
Speaker 2: he was kind of stuck in this world of the
Speaker 2: teenager and I think that he had a real internal
Speaker 2: battle with who he was and what he was going
Speaker 2: to do and how to move forward. And so I
Speaker 2: really gather that from reading my dad's story and talking
Speaker 2: to him that there was definitely an internal struggle with
Speaker 2: himself trying to figure out who he was and really
Speaker 2: started to kind of change and evolve as he was
Speaker 2: getting older, and I think he was just really lost.
Speaker 5: You have a telling sort of story that stories about
Speaker 5: how he is conning his mother more and more. But
Speaker 5: after a while even his mother doesn't believe some of
Speaker 5: the stories because he's this notorious pathological liar, it seems,
Speaker 5: but he talks about the attending classes at university. Meanwhile,
Speaker 5: tell us what the reality was in terms of what
Speaker 5: he was doing with his mother and what he was
Speaker 5: saying in school. What was the reality of what he
Speaker 5: was actually doing.
Speaker 2: So his mother agreed to pay for him to go
Speaker 2: to the University of Arizona, and he had her convince
Speaker 2: that he was really going to the u of A
Speaker 2: at least for a certain amount of time, so she
Speaker 2: gave him all of the money for books and classes
Speaker 2: and all of this. My dad has shared with me
Speaker 2: that when Smitty was enrolling, he actually had He had
Speaker 2: paid my father a certain amount of money to go
Speaker 2: for him to the u of A and sign up
Speaker 2: for these classes. So he paid my dad to spend
Speaker 2: the time to do this so that he could show
Speaker 2: his mom he was enrolled in all of the classes.
Speaker 2: So my dad was pretending to be Charles Schmid and
Speaker 2: getting all of that enrolled. Of course, Charles Schmid never
Speaker 2: showed up to any of the classes, and for a
Speaker 2: certain amount of time, his mother was giving him money
Speaker 2: to go to school, and you know, probably proud that
Speaker 2: he was going to uvais clearly at some point, you know,
Speaker 2: it all kind of was, you know, realized, and she
Speaker 2: stopped giving him the money. But for a certain time
Speaker 2: he had or convinced he was going to school, and
Speaker 2: so he would leave to go to school. She would
Speaker 2: be giving him money, and then he and my dad
Speaker 2: would just be hanging out all day at restaurants or
Speaker 2: hanging out doing whatever while she thought he was going
Speaker 2: to school.
Speaker 5: Before this as well, you notice some of the devolution
Speaker 5: of his is a character in that you talk about
Speaker 5: white lipstick and sun tan pills and dying of the
Speaker 5: arm hair and chest hair. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: more about this lipstick that he or pardon me, this
Speaker 5: behavior he's exhibiting to a friend like your father, who
Speaker 5: sees him quite often. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, like I mentioned, when he first met Charles Schmid,
Speaker 2: he really was just kind of a charismatic, good looking guy.
Speaker 2: And as he started getting older and again I think
Speaker 2: he was trying to figure out who he was. He
Speaker 2: really was into Elvis Presley and started trying to kind
Speaker 2: of look like Elvis Presley, but in a really bizarre
Speaker 2: and distorted way. He was dyeing his hair black, and
Speaker 2: his chest hair is black, and even his eyebrows and everything.
Speaker 2: He would die, he would sit under a sun lamp
Speaker 2: and get really suntan and wear really white chapstick or
Speaker 2: something on his lips. He started painting a mole on
Speaker 2: his cheek, which started out like a little pinhole mole,
Speaker 2: and over time it just kept growing bigger and bigger,
Speaker 2: until it finally was almost like a quarter size mole
Speaker 2: on his cheek. I think one of the most unusual
Speaker 2: things about Charles Schmid that everyone always writes about is
Speaker 2: because he was short, he was trying to make himself taller,
Speaker 2: and so he would wear these boots that would be
Speaker 2: oversized for him, and he would stuff the boots with
Speaker 2: tons of rags and whatever he could get into the
Speaker 2: boots so that he was almost walking on like high
Speaker 2: heels or stilts, almost And so he practiced walking in
Speaker 2: these boots, and by doing that, he added between three
Speaker 2: and six inches to his heights to make himself taller.
Speaker 2: And you know he really was when you see pictures
Speaker 2: of him of what he became. You can google pictures,
Speaker 2: and he became very bizarre. I mean, you can look
Speaker 2: at him and right away you can see that he
Speaker 2: was at one time a good looking guy, but just
Speaker 2: went really over the top with this persona that he
Speaker 2: was creating of himself.
Speaker 5: You also talk about that he was a real nonconformist
Speaker 5: and that one time he came and ripped up and
Speaker 5: burned a bible in front of in front of your
Speaker 5: parents' place, in front of your father's home. So there
Speaker 5: was that behavior that's very very disturbing as well.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he definitely did things that were disturbing as
Speaker 2: far as you know. As you mentioned he tore up
Speaker 2: a bible and burned it in front of my father's home.
Speaker 2: At that time, he was very abusive to a cat
Speaker 2: in front of my father, which really freaked my father
Speaker 2: out because he basically picked up this cat and was
Speaker 2: swinging it by its tail and hitting it against a wall,
Speaker 2: and had turned to my father and said you feel
Speaker 2: compassion why and just really always doing started really pressing
Speaker 2: the boundaries on everything and really showing a side of
Speaker 2: himself that was a bit frightening and telling about what
Speaker 2: was going on in his mind.
Speaker 5: You talk about the did he's twenty three years old
Speaker 5: at this point. Then he's still hanging around with teenagers
Speaker 5: fifteen fourteen, and just a little bit older tell us
Speaker 5: about Wendy and her sister and how it comes that
Speaker 5: they are that they get to know or they know
Speaker 5: Charles Schmidt and your father tell us about this little
Speaker 5: group of friends.
Speaker 2: So Charles Schmid did have a group of friends that
Speaker 2: my father was not really connected to. Charles Schmid had
Speaker 2: many more friends than my father. So my father really
Speaker 2: had Charles Schmid as a close friend, but only had
Speaker 2: a few other friendships where Charlis Schmid had many friends
Speaker 2: and he had multiple girlfriends he had, So Wendy and
Speaker 2: Gretchen actually their friendship came later on the Mary French
Speaker 2: who was one of his girlfriends, and John Saunders, one
Speaker 2: of his friends. Those are the two that he actually
Speaker 2: started to convince and did end up convincing to murder
Speaker 2: with him. And so he had a group of friends
Speaker 2: that he actually was able to convince to start to
Speaker 2: really kind of sway to a dark side with him.
Speaker 2: And so my father really wasn't necessarily a part of
Speaker 2: those friendships, but definitely there was another side of Schmid
Speaker 2: that he was having some other friends get involved in
Speaker 2: things with him.
Speaker 5: You talk about that they had convinced John Saunders and
Speaker 5: Mary French and Mary French was his girlfriend and she
Speaker 5: was quite young as well, right, fifteen years older?
Speaker 2: Yeah, some many French was younger.
Speaker 5: Yes, Now tell us about the what happens to Gretchen
Speaker 5: and at what point? And then what does your father
Speaker 5: know initially and then what does he find out and how.
Speaker 2: So Wendy, Wendy and Gretchen. Actually the first girl who
Speaker 2: ends up getting murdered is actually Eleene Rowe. So Eleene
Speaker 2: Rowe is a girl that Charles Schmid convinced John Saunders
Speaker 2: and Mary French to murder with him. So Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: had decided that he wanted to kill somebody and see
Speaker 2: what it felt like, and somehow convinced these other two
Speaker 2: to do it with him. And so John Saunders and
Speaker 2: Charles Schmid had created they were looking for someone to
Speaker 2: murder a young girl. And Charles Schmid had actually created
Speaker 2: a list of possible girls to kill, and they had
Speaker 2: decided on one of the girls on the list, Aleene Rowe.
Speaker 2: And so Charles Schmid convinced Mary French, one of his
Speaker 2: girlfriends at the time, to go to Eleene Roe's home
Speaker 2: and convince her to go out with them, with the
Speaker 2: impression that she was going to be going out with
Speaker 2: John Saunders while Mary would be with Charles Schmid. So
Speaker 2: Mary did convince Alene Rowe to go out. One night
Speaker 2: they had waited for Elene Roe's mother to go to work.
Speaker 2: Alene Rose's mother was a single mom and worked as
Speaker 2: a night nurse, and so they waited for her mom
Speaker 2: to leave for work, and then Mary French went to
Speaker 2: her window and convinced her to come out, which she did,
Speaker 2: and they drove out to the desert to supposedly drink
Speaker 2: beer and ended up murdering Alene Rowe. Mary French waited
Speaker 2: in the car while John Saunders and Charles Schmid walked
Speaker 2: off to the desert with her and ended up raping
Speaker 2: her and then murdering her by hitting her over the
Speaker 2: head with rocks or a rock.
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Speaker 5: What did they do with her body?
Speaker 2: They buried the body. So they went back up and
Speaker 2: got Mary French and told her that they had killed her.
Speaker 2: And then the three of them dug a grave and
Speaker 2: buried her body and buried all of the evidence. And
Speaker 2: then shortly after, about six months after that is when
Speaker 2: Charles Schmid told my father that he had done this
Speaker 2: with Mary French and John Saunders. My dad, I think
Speaker 2: believed him, but at the same time didn't know what
Speaker 2: to believe with Charles Schmid because he was such a
Speaker 2: storyteller and he was always telling over the top stories.
Speaker 2: So I think my dad at that point had seen
Speaker 2: the changes in Schmid and probably didn't doubt that he
Speaker 2: really did this. Of course, he didn't have any real evidence,
Speaker 2: didn't know where the body was, didn't know any of
Speaker 2: the details to like lead somebody to a bo but
Speaker 2: he was told that they did it, and so my
Speaker 2: dad had that information and now was you know, holding
Speaker 2: on to that information in his mind, realizing just how
Speaker 2: insane Charles Schmid was becoming or had become.
Speaker 5: What was the progress with police in terms of Saunders
Speaker 5: and Mary French being suspects or Charles Smith being suspects
Speaker 5: in the Aileen rogue case? What were police doing, where
Speaker 5: were they looking, and who were they suspecting with anyone?
Speaker 2: At that time in Tucson, there were a lot of runaways,
Speaker 2: and so Eileen Roe's mother knew that something happened to
Speaker 2: her daughter, and she knew that her daughter didn't run away,
Speaker 2: and she was constantly trying to get the police to
Speaker 2: do more. The Tucson Police department at that time really
Speaker 2: was really writing it off as a runaway case and
Speaker 2: kept telling her, you know, we have this happening with
Speaker 2: all kinds of teenagers. She's going to come at, you know,
Speaker 2: don't you know. They were trying to brush it off,
Speaker 2: and Eleen's rou's mother knew that that just wasn't the case.
Speaker 2: The police did question many of the teenagers, including Charles Schmid.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if they ever questioned Mary and John.
Speaker 2: I know that they did question Charles Schmid. They talked
Speaker 2: to pretty much everybody you know at the school that
Speaker 2: might have known her, and really there was nothing for
Speaker 2: them to go on, and so they just kept believing
Speaker 2: that this was a runaway case. And really the Aline
Speaker 2: Rode case just sort of dwindled away for the police
Speaker 2: department and was kind of written off as a runaway case. Sadly.
Speaker 5: You talk about also that at some point he starts
Speaker 5: talking their friends. Your father and Schmid are friends, and
Speaker 5: he starts asking him certain questions. He doesn't come out
Speaker 5: with it immediately, but what are the things he starts
Speaker 5: talking to him about in terms of Gretchen and her disappearance?
Speaker 5: What does he have to or pardon me, what what
Speaker 5: does he have to say about even Aleen Rowe?
Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned, he did confide in my father
Speaker 2: that he murdered Aleen Rowe, and he you know, my
Speaker 2: father writes, you know, about times where he's sitting in
Speaker 2: Charles Schmid's home and you know, he's he's looking at
Speaker 2: this man that he used to you know, be friends
Speaker 2: with and look up to, and he's starting to really
Speaker 2: fear and watching him progress into something very again bizarre.
Speaker 2: But he does also share that at some point Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid even tried to convince my father to murder a
Speaker 2: family with him. You know, I think it of course
Speaker 2: didn't go anywhere, and my father, you know, would just
Speaker 2: constantly sort of listened to Schmid and listened to him
Speaker 2: talk and kind of brush things off. But it was
Speaker 2: clear to my father from things that Schmid was saying
Speaker 2: that he just was no longer the person that my
Speaker 2: father knew when he was younger. And you know, my
Speaker 2: father did realize that that Charles Schmid had pretty much
Speaker 2: you know, lost his mind, and he was afraid of
Speaker 2: him at that point.
Speaker 5: Tell us about the two sisters, Gretchen and Wendy first,
Speaker 5: and tell us what their relationship was to your father,
Speaker 5: and Charles smidt before you tell us what happened to Gretchen.
Speaker 2: So, Gretchen he met at a public pool. Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: met at a public pool about six months after Eleen
Speaker 2: Rowe was murdered and really fell smitten for her. She
Speaker 2: was a very beautiful, blonde young girl who also, like
Speaker 2: Charles Schmid, came from a well to do family. She
Speaker 2: had a father who was a renowned heart surgeon here
Speaker 2: in town, and so she came from a family with
Speaker 2: a lot of money, and they just sort of really
Speaker 2: fell for each other pretty quickly and started dating each other.
Speaker 2: There is a point now, Wendy is her younger sister
Speaker 2: who hung out with her a lot. She was several
Speaker 2: years younger, and so that's who Wendy was. So the
Speaker 2: Fritz sisters would be around Charles Schmid quite often. And
Speaker 2: eventually Charles Schmid decides that he's going to take Gretchen
Speaker 2: out and show her Alene Rose body, or at least
Speaker 2: where the burial is, because he, according to what he
Speaker 2: tells my father, is he wanted to see if Gretchen
Speaker 2: would still love him even if she knew. This is
Speaker 2: who he was. So he took Gretchen out to Alene
Speaker 2: Roe's body and showed her and told her what he
Speaker 2: had done. And at that point, you know, Gretchen, you know,
Speaker 2: told him that she would love him no matter what.
Speaker 2: But she started really holding that over Charles Schmid's head.
Speaker 2: And so she started really kind of trying to pull
Speaker 2: the reins in and control what Charles Schmid was doing
Speaker 2: and making rules for him and constantly telling him that
Speaker 2: if he didn't do what she wanted him to do,
Speaker 2: she was going to go to the police. She started
Speaker 2: really holding this over his head, and that's when the
Speaker 2: dynamic between Gretchen and Charles Schmid really started to change
Speaker 2: and it became kind of a love hate relationship at
Speaker 2: that point.
Speaker 5: Now, in all of this, at some point, Gretchen and
Speaker 5: Wendy disappear. What does your father's surmise from that? Now,
Speaker 5: with this escalating bizarre behavior and some of the things
Speaker 5: he's already said, what is he surmise? And again, what
Speaker 5: did the police do in terms of suspects.
Speaker 2: So Gretchen and Windy did disappear in August of nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty five. They went to a drive in movie and
Speaker 2: never came home and my father did suspect that Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid had done something, and it was a short time
Speaker 2: after that Charis Shmid did confide in my father that
Speaker 2: he had killed Gretchen and Wendy, which my dad was
Speaker 2: thinking probably did happen, but again didn't have any proof
Speaker 2: or anything. Now that the police had questioned. Gretchen's family
Speaker 2: did not care for Charles Schmid and they had kept
Speaker 2: trying to keep Gretchen from seeing Charles Schmid, and when
Speaker 2: she disappeared, the Fritz family really did believe that Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid was, you know, the co written why their daughters disappeared.
Speaker 2: So the police did question Charles Schmid as well as
Speaker 2: all of the other teenagers that knew them and from
Speaker 2: the school, and again there wasn't any anything for them
Speaker 2: to pin Charles Schmid on these cases. And there was
Speaker 2: also a lot of speculation that they too had run away,
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of stories that were coming
Speaker 2: out of sightings of seeing Gretchen and Windy in different areas,
Speaker 2: so there was still again that belief, just like with
Speaker 2: Eleen Rowe, that they may have run away. So the
Speaker 2: police weren't sure what was going on there They definitely
Speaker 2: questioned everybody that they could. There wasn't any evidence that
Speaker 2: any foul play had happened until they they did find
Speaker 2: her car at a hotel. But even with the car,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of evidence to go off of.
Speaker 2: They did find Gretchen's car with her personette, which was
Speaker 2: very questionable of why the car would have been left behind.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think back when I read this,
Speaker 2: I realize all of this was happening in the sixties,
Speaker 2: where you know, there wasn't the things that we have now.
Speaker 2: You know, there's no DNA evidence, there's no cell phone
Speaker 2: records or computer records, and so at that time, you
Speaker 2: have somebody missing, and if you don't have a smoking
Speaker 2: gun and you don't have you know, a body, you
Speaker 2: really don't have anything to go on. And so I
Speaker 2: see where the Tusom police were just stuck and didn't
Speaker 2: know what happened to the girls.
Speaker 5: You talk about a very interesting situation too, that's demonstrative
Speaker 5: to your father about Charles Schmidt and sends your father
Speaker 5: on some strange behavior. According to other people and officials,
Speaker 5: he has a girlfriend named Kathy. Kathy has a history
Speaker 5: of a relationship which he is friendly called Smitty, So
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about that. And because of
Speaker 5: that relationship and because of the things that Smitty is
Speaker 5: telling your father, what does your father do in response?
Speaker 2: So, as you mentioned my father, there was a girl
Speaker 2: named Kathy that my father had been dating, and Kathy
Speaker 2: had confided in my father, And this was a short
Speaker 2: time after both Gretchen and Wendy had turned up missing
Speaker 2: as well, and Kathy confided in my father that something
Speaker 2: was happening at night. Somebody was messing with her screen
Speaker 2: and making noises outside of her window, and it had
Speaker 2: her frightened. My father had decided that he was going
Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of this and see what
Speaker 2: was going on, and so he hung out on her
Speaker 2: street one night, kind of watching her house and was
Speaker 2: getting ready to leave. He had been there for quite
Speaker 2: some time, and then saw Charles Schmid's car coming down
Speaker 2: the road. At that point, he had a Ford Falcon
Speaker 2: sprint that he would drive, and so he was coming
Speaker 2: down the road and saw my father and pulled up
Speaker 2: to my father and acted as if he was looking
Speaker 2: for my father. But my dad at that point just
Speaker 2: knew that Charles Schmid now had his sights on Kathy.
Speaker 2: He was convinced that she was going to be his
Speaker 2: next victim. And once he started feeling like, you know,
Speaker 2: Kathy was in danger, he became really obsessed with watching
Speaker 2: over Kathy to protect her. And really he became you know,
Speaker 2: day and night, he held a vigil in front of
Speaker 2: her home and on her street to watch over Kathy
Speaker 2: and make sure that nothing would happen to her. And
Speaker 2: he was convinced that he was the only one that
Speaker 2: was going to be able to prevent Charles Schmid from
Speaker 2: getting to Kathy. And of course, for Kathy's family and
Speaker 2: for the neighborhood, this was very concerning. And so my dad,
Speaker 2: you know, obviously they could see he was obsessed with
Speaker 2: this girl. They didn't know why he was obsessed, and
Speaker 2: so he really became you know, to the police, somebody
Speaker 2: to really watch because he was watching over Kathy all
Speaker 2: the time, and you know, it really ate up my dad.
Speaker 2: I mean, he just was obsessed. And he admits that
Speaker 2: he became just completely obsessed, and of course it destroyed
Speaker 2: his relationship with Kathy. And but he was obsessed with
Speaker 2: watching over her and trying to prevent Charles Schmid from
Speaker 2: getting to her, and that became his obsession for several months.
Speaker 5: You talk about this vigil and then one night he
Speaker 5: gets a call from his friend Smitty inviting him to
Speaker 5: a party. Now, why would he go in terms of
Speaker 5: since he's guarding Kathy. And then tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about this party and what was said and what
Speaker 5: your father learned.
Speaker 2: Yes, so it had been quite a while since my
Speaker 2: dad had really been hanging out with Charles Schmid, because
Speaker 2: my dad was spending all of his time trying to
Speaker 2: protect Kathy from Charles Schmid and kind of watching over
Speaker 2: her in her home. And so one morning, Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: called my father and said he was having a party
Speaker 2: at his house and invited my father. And at first
Speaker 2: my father you know, turned it down, did not, you know,
Speaker 2: but he really kind of convinced my dad, And after
Speaker 2: my dad you know, considered it, realized, well, if he's
Speaker 2: with Charles Schmid, then Charles Schmid can't be you know,
Speaker 2: after Kathy. So my dad really believed as long as
Speaker 2: he was with one of them at all times, then
Speaker 2: Kathy was safe. And so he did agree to go
Speaker 2: to the party and that night, I mean that day
Speaker 2: he watched over Kathy's home like he always did, and
Speaker 2: then that night he headed to Charles Schmid's else for
Speaker 2: the party, and you know, he writes about getting there
Speaker 2: and at first there was no one there and the
Speaker 2: panic that he felt, you know, just feeling like he
Speaker 2: had really been had in Charles Schmid, you know, tricked him.
Speaker 2: And my father was dropped off at the party by
Speaker 2: his parents, so he didn't have a vehicle, and he
Speaker 2: felt very, very concerned. At that point. People did start
Speaker 2: showing up for the party. Charles Schmid did show up
Speaker 2: for the party, but it's just it, you know, when
Speaker 2: you read it, you realize just the panic he felt
Speaker 2: not being able to watch over her all of the time,
Speaker 2: and he was just so convinced that Charles Schmid was
Speaker 2: going to kill Kathy.
Speaker 5: Now at this party too. This is an incredible development
Speaker 5: that Smitty arrives with some guys in suits around his age,
Speaker 5: so he's a little bit older than everyone else, and
Speaker 5: these guys are nicely dressed. And you say, your father
Speaker 5: recognizes these people from the newspapers, So who are these
Speaker 5: people and tell us about this incident.
Speaker 2: So Joe Banano, who is was the crime boss for
Speaker 2: the Banano crime family, which is one of the Big
Speaker 2: Five you know, crime families in the United States. Joe
Speaker 2: Banano had moved here with his family, and so there
Speaker 2: was a lot of news always kind of showing Joe
Speaker 2: Banano and his family. And these men showed up and
Speaker 2: my father recognized them from actually the people who showed up,
Speaker 2: he didn't recognize. It was once he was taken somewhere.
Speaker 2: So there were two people in suits with Charles Schmid,
Speaker 2: and Charles Schmid asked my father to come outside with him.
Speaker 2: My father went outside and Charles Schmid told him that
Speaker 2: these people are from the mafia and they want to
Speaker 2: question him about Gretchen and Wendy, and that they want
Speaker 2: meant him to come with them, And of course that
Speaker 2: completely frightened my father, and you know, Charles Schmid convinced
Speaker 2: him that he would be safe and he would be
Speaker 2: with him. And so Charles Schmid and my father went
Speaker 2: in the car with these two men from the mafia,
Speaker 2: who later turned out to be Joe Banano Junior, the
Speaker 2: youngest son of Joe Banano, and another man from the mafia.
Speaker 2: They drove them to an apartment here in town. In
Speaker 2: that apartment was Salvatore Banano, otherwise known as Bill Banano,
Speaker 2: who was the oldest son of Joe Banano and then
Speaker 2: Joe Bataglia, and he did recognize them from the papers
Speaker 2: because they had been in the papers, and so he
Speaker 2: did realize he really was with these mafia mobsters in
Speaker 2: this apartment. And so it was a very frightening thing.
Speaker 2: And they were questioned by them for some time about
Speaker 2: the girls, and my father at that point Schmid had
Speaker 2: confided in him at that point that he had killed
Speaker 2: Gretchen and Wendy. So my father knew that Schmid had
Speaker 2: said he had killed Gretchen and Wendy, but my father
Speaker 2: just kept denying he knew anything, and just really felt
Speaker 2: like he was in quicksand at that moment and getting
Speaker 2: deeper and deeper into all of this. And so from
Speaker 2: my father, you know, he just quickly found himself really
Speaker 2: in over his head in this whole thing.
Speaker 5: What did Smitty say in terms of when they asked
Speaker 5: about Gretchen and Wendy, and they said they wanted to
Speaker 5: find information out, they wanted to question these people. They
Speaker 5: also warned them if they you know, if they didn't,
Speaker 5: if they did lie at all, they would be in
Speaker 5: big trouble. What does Smitty pull out of the out
Speaker 5: of his hat in terms of a plausible place where
Speaker 5: Gretchen and Wendy might have gone.
Speaker 2: He tries to convince the Mafia that Gretchen went to California,
Speaker 2: and he tells them that he actually is the one
Speaker 2: that helped Gretchen learn how to run away, and so
Speaker 2: he tells them that he's the one that told her
Speaker 2: she could go to California where she could make herself
Speaker 2: look older and blend in. And he tells the mafia
Speaker 2: that he even taught her, you know, all the things
Speaker 2: to do to run away, and he was sure, you know,
Speaker 2: he told the mafia he was sure that her and
Speaker 2: Wendy were in California. And there was recently a vacation
Speaker 2: that Gretchen and Wendy had gone to with their family,
Speaker 2: and she had met a boy there in California, and
Speaker 2: she admitted to meeting somebody in California and told Smitty
Speaker 2: about it, and Smitty shared that with the Mafia and
Speaker 2: told them that she had been dating this guy, and
Speaker 2: he's sure that she went there to be with him
Speaker 2: in California, and so he just kind of kept sticking
Speaker 2: to that story as the conversation ended with those mob people.
Speaker 2: They told Schmid that they were going to come and
Speaker 2: get him the next day and take him to California
Speaker 2: to look for the girls. So I don't know if
Speaker 2: they really believed Schmid or if they were calling his bluff,
Speaker 2: but they did come the next day and they took
Speaker 2: him to California to find Gretchen and Wendy.
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Speaker 5: recruiter the smartest way to hire. We talked about this Batagular,
Speaker 5: Charles Bataglia, these mob members and Banano, Joe Banano, and
Speaker 5: they want some information regarding these two missing girls. They
Speaker 5: call his bluff or they believe that he may even
Speaker 5: help them find her in San Diego or somewhere in California.
Speaker 5: So what's the next thing that happens with these two mobsters?
Speaker 5: And what is your father thinking about this entire thing,
Speaker 5: knowing that that his friend Smitty knows a lot more
Speaker 5: than he is saying.
Speaker 2: So I should mention that same night when they left,
Speaker 2: because I mentioned they did come and take him to California.
Speaker 2: But a very important piece of the story happened that
Speaker 2: night when they left the apartment. And so they left
Speaker 2: the apartment and they were dropped off at Hamburger Joint
Speaker 2: and they started talking about the meeting and what Charles
Speaker 2: was going to do if he was picked up by
Speaker 2: the mafia, and Charles Schmid, you know, confided to my
Speaker 2: father that the thing he was really worried about is
Speaker 2: that he had never buried Gretchen and Windy and they
Speaker 2: were just laying out where he had left them in
Speaker 2: the desert. And my father was shocked by that and said,
Speaker 2: what do you mean you didn't even bury them, And
Speaker 2: at that point, he still wasn't one hundred percent sure
Speaker 2: that they didn't run away and that he wasn't telling stories.
Speaker 2: And my father decided to call his bluff at that
Speaker 2: point so that he could find out the truth. And
Speaker 2: my father said to him, you know, I'm in this
Speaker 2: now too. I just spent you know, the evening talking
Speaker 2: to these mobsters and if you didn't really bury the girls,
Speaker 2: we need to go out there and bury them. And
Speaker 2: really his main reason of doing that is he wanted
Speaker 2: proof that the girls really had been killed, and Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid was telling the truth, and you know, to unfortunately,
Speaker 2: he was telling the truth, and my father was taken
Speaker 2: out to the desert where Charles Schmid had buried the bodies,
Speaker 2: and my father ended up in the middle of a
Speaker 2: situation where he really was trying to help bury the
Speaker 2: two girls. And you know, that happened that night after
Speaker 2: visiting the mob, and so at that point my father
Speaker 2: did know for sure the truth. My father did know
Speaker 2: that Charles Schmid had done this, but he also at
Speaker 2: that point felt like he was now in over his
Speaker 2: head and could be into a lot of trouble. And
Speaker 2: when they left the desert that night, they were unsuccessful
Speaker 2: in burying the bodies because the desert ground was so hard.
Speaker 2: But Charles Schmid did tell him, you're in this as
Speaker 2: deep as I am now, and my father believed that.
Speaker 2: And my father believed that now that he, you know,
Speaker 2: had been there to the site and had seen the
Speaker 2: bodies and tried to help Schmid bury the bodies, you know,
Speaker 2: he believed that he was now too deep this to
Speaker 2: really go to the police himself, because he thought that
Speaker 2: he could go to prison. So you know, at that point,
Speaker 2: he really was lost himself in what the right thing
Speaker 2: to do was. And he my father continued his vigil
Speaker 2: of Kathy's home and then Charles Schmid was picked up
Speaker 2: by the mafia the next day and taken out to
Speaker 2: California to look for the girls. My understanding is they
Speaker 2: all ended up getting picked up by the police on
Speaker 2: a beach walking around showing pictures of Gretchen and Windy,
Speaker 2: and Charles Schmid was sent back home here in Tucson,
Speaker 2: and so that's what happened from that point with them.
Speaker 2: The reason that mafia was even involved in this is
Speaker 2: that Gretchen Fritz, you know, I mentioned her father was
Speaker 2: a heart surgeon. He was a heart surgeon for Joe Binano,
Speaker 2: so he had that connection to Joe Bernano and was
Speaker 2: his surgeon and so so you know, the understanding is
Speaker 2: that Gretchen's father got Joe Bernano involved to try and
Speaker 2: help him find his daughters, and that's how the mafia
Speaker 2: got involved in all of this.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about the how things progress with your
Speaker 5: father and this information, So what happens with your father
Speaker 5: and this information and what does he do next?
Speaker 2: So he doesn't do anything with the Gretchen and Windy information.
Speaker 2: Now that he's been out to the bodies, he's convinced
Speaker 2: that he himself is going to be in a lot
Speaker 2: of trouble and could even go to prison for having
Speaker 2: even tried to help bury the bodies. And Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: really had him convinced that he was in it just
Speaker 2: as deep as him. Now he continued to even more
Speaker 2: deeply now that he knew for sure that Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: had killed these girls, he he was even that much
Speaker 2: more afraid for his own life, for Kathy's life, and
Speaker 2: was really watching over her still. And the family was
Speaker 2: able to finally get a restraining order and the courts
Speaker 2: told my father that he needed to go and live
Speaker 2: with his grandmother in Columbus, Ohio for six months so
Speaker 2: that he would be pulled away from Kathy and her neighborhood.
Speaker 2: And so that's what happened next. So my father was
Speaker 2: pulled out of Tucson by the courts and sent to
Speaker 2: live with his grandmother in Columbus, Ohio. Which is when
Speaker 2: he really panics because now he really has no control
Speaker 2: over what Charles Schmid does and what he could do
Speaker 2: to Kathy and becomes panicked.
Speaker 5: And as a result, what does he do to try
Speaker 5: to protect Kathy And how does he have this I
Speaker 5: don't know, reversal and this you know, there is a
Speaker 5: sort of a code, and especially young people adhere to
Speaker 5: these things of he's my friend, he once was my friend.
Speaker 5: How does he grapple with some of these things, and
Speaker 5: what's the turning point? And how does the turning point?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 2: I think thank god he was and to Columbus, Ohio,
Speaker 2: because I you know, it's hard to say where this
Speaker 2: this all would have gone had he not been pulled
Speaker 2: away from the situation to really realize that the only
Speaker 2: thing left for him to do was to call the authorities.
Speaker 2: And so he was only in Columbus, Ohio for a
Speaker 2: couple of days and just couldn't take it anymore, couldn't,
Speaker 2: you know, handle what might happen to Kathy, and felt
Speaker 2: like if he didn't do something, he was going to
Speaker 2: end up killing Kathy. And so he did end up
Speaker 2: calling the Tucson police and telling them what happened, and
Speaker 2: they the next day came and got him and flew
Speaker 2: him back to Tucson, and he took them out to
Speaker 2: the bodies of Gretchen and when to show him And
Speaker 2: so that's when it all really came to a head
Speaker 2: and my father was able to finally have the courage
Speaker 2: to do what he needed to do and call the authorities.
Speaker 5: He was agonizing, and he talks about that agonizing night
Speaker 5: and then the feeling he has after he does do
Speaker 5: the right thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had a very strong relief, like the weight
Speaker 2: of the world had been taken off of his shoulders.
Speaker 2: You know, I do realize in reading this and now
Speaker 2: understanding you know, what he was personally and emotionally going
Speaker 2: through with all of this. You know, he really did
Speaker 2: believe that he single handily was the only one that
Speaker 2: was going to be able to protect this girl. And
Speaker 2: you know, so to finally know that he's now come
Speaker 2: out with it and it's out of his hands. And
Speaker 2: at that time, he did believe that he was going
Speaker 2: to be in a lot of trouble and he would
Speaker 2: probably go to jailer prison for even trying to help
Speaker 2: bury the bodies. But he was ready to just you know,
Speaker 2: get this out and and protect her. And so he
Speaker 2: felt a complete relief once once he came out with it.
Speaker 5: You also talk about too, that that he schmedi told
Speaker 5: your father to grab their shoes, one of the girl's
Speaker 5: shoes as well, and your father thought this was a
Speaker 5: sure attempt to have his fingerprints, And again also he
Speaker 5: noticed something. Later. We finds out later that sunglasses that
Speaker 5: he never wore happened to be at the at this
Speaker 5: gravesite as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I don't know that my dad was putting
Speaker 2: it together at the time that night that they went
Speaker 2: out there, But there was a time where Smitty had
Speaker 2: turned to him they were away from Windy Wendy's body,
Speaker 2: and he told my father to pull the shoe off
Speaker 2: of her foot and throw it. I don't know if
Speaker 2: all my dad, you know, talks about is that he
Speaker 2: didn't want to do that, but Charles Schmid seemed to
Speaker 2: be testing him to see if he was going to
Speaker 2: touch the shoe, and he was afraid that if he
Speaker 2: didn't do in the moment what Charles Schmid told him
Speaker 2: to do. You know, here they were in the desert,
Speaker 2: he already killed these two girls. He thought for sure
Speaker 2: Charles Schmid would kill him if he didn't do as
Speaker 2: he was told, and so he took the shoe off
Speaker 2: of her foot and threw it. He also had told
Speaker 2: my dad to wipe the other girl's shoe off, which
Speaker 2: my dad did do with his handkerchief and then tossed
Speaker 2: the handkerchief. And then as you mentioned later when they
Speaker 2: went back to the bodies and my dad took the
Speaker 2: police to the bodies, a pair of my dad's sunglasses
Speaker 2: were at the scene. And you know, my dad never
Speaker 2: went out there. He only been out there the one
Speaker 2: time at night with Charles Schmid, and he didn't understand
Speaker 2: how his sunglasses could have got out there. So he
Speaker 2: really after the fact, realized that he believes Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: was starting to set it up to make him look
Speaker 2: like he could have been the murder, and so he,
Speaker 2: you know, in hindsight, realizes that this may have been
Speaker 2: all a part of Charlis Shmid's plan to pitness on
Speaker 2: my father, which is what Charles Schmidd tries to do
Speaker 2: once it all comes out.
Speaker 5: You talk about the police, once your father comes forward,
Speaker 5: they also ask him to do something that is very
Speaker 5: very difficult for this former friend that is suddenly turning
Speaker 5: on his friend or released. He has those mixed feelings.
Speaker 5: What do they get him to do in terms of
Speaker 5: what they call a confrontation and what happens as a
Speaker 5: result in that confrontation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they right away at the desert, when they went
Speaker 2: to the bodies, they right away started telling father that
Speaker 2: they wanted him to confront Charles Schmid to see what
Speaker 2: they could get Charles Schmid, you know, once they knew that,
Speaker 2: once Charles Schmid knew my father had gone to the police,
Speaker 2: that Charles Schmid might come forward and confess. And my
Speaker 2: father kept saying, he's never going to confess. You know.
Speaker 2: My dad didn't believe that Charles Schmid would confess and
Speaker 2: was afraid to confront him because, you know, he just
Speaker 2: it was very hard for him to go forward to
Speaker 2: the police and really he felt like this would be
Speaker 2: the end of it. So when I talk about that relief,
Speaker 2: he felt it was because now he did his part,
Speaker 2: he let the authorities know what was going on. But
Speaker 2: now they were pushing him to go into the room
Speaker 2: where Charles Shmid was being held at the police station
Speaker 2: and to confront him so that they could try to
Speaker 2: get Schmid to confess. And it was very difficult for
Speaker 2: my father to walk into that room. And he writes
Speaker 2: about and I think my father did a great job
Speaker 2: of writing his emotions in that time, because you really
Speaker 2: feel the fear that he felt walking into that interrogation
Speaker 2: room and having to face Charles Schmid, and the look
Speaker 2: that Charles Schmid gives him when he walks in, knowing
Speaker 2: that my father, you know, had turned him in. And
Speaker 2: then as they sit down, Charles Schmid, you know, right
Speaker 2: away starts to try and turn the tables and say,
Speaker 2: you know, why did you do this, Richie, you know,
Speaker 2: and basically trying to you know, make it sound as
Speaker 2: if my father had done this and was trying to
Speaker 2: depend it on Schmid. And so that was a very
Speaker 2: frightening and difficult confrontation of the two of them because
Speaker 2: now he had to look Charleis Schmid in the eye
Speaker 2: and you know, really face him after going to the
Speaker 2: police with all of the information, and my father was
Speaker 2: very afraid of Charles Schmid by then.
Speaker 5: You also talk about that once Charles Schmidt is arrested
Speaker 5: from the information that your father gave that, the ordeal
Speaker 5: obviously is not over for your father. In terms of
Speaker 5: public reaction, and yeah, just public reaction. What was a
Speaker 5: public reaction for somebody that was we know, heroic and
Speaker 5: coming forward. What was the treatment he was getting during
Speaker 5: all of this?
Speaker 2: So it was extremely negative and you basically had two
Speaker 2: different aspects of it. On the one hand, you had
Speaker 2: a lot of people speculating why didn't he come you know,
Speaker 2: forward sooner and if he wasn't involved, he would have
Speaker 2: come forward sooner, you know, and all of that story.
Speaker 2: And because Charles Schmid and Charles Schmidd defense attorney tried
Speaker 2: to claim that it was my father who really killed
Speaker 2: the Fritz sisters, there was a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: media and stories because that was a very you know,
Speaker 2: that's a great story, you know, to tell, and so
Speaker 2: the newspapers, some of them really ran with that story.
Speaker 2: And so you had a lot of people in Tucson
Speaker 2: who believed maybe he really did do this, or maybe
Speaker 2: he really was more involved than what he says. So
Speaker 2: you had that side of it, and then surprisingly, you
Speaker 2: had this whole other side that treated my father horribly
Speaker 2: for coming forward. And so you know, my father has
Speaker 2: shared with me how you know, after this all happened
Speaker 2: and the trials were going on, you would have people
Speaker 2: going by his home and throwing things at the house
Speaker 2: and calling him a rat and a sink and a
Speaker 2: squealer and all of this stuff. And you know, instead
Speaker 2: of realizing that he came forward to stop somebody who
Speaker 2: was murdering girls, instead he was treated like he did
Speaker 2: something wrong by writing on Schmid, and so he was
Speaker 2: kind of having it come at him from both angles.
Speaker 2: And so it was a very traumatic and difficult time
Speaker 2: for him because he was completely treated as an outcast
Speaker 2: and a you know, I really, I honestly can't imagine
Speaker 2: going through that and having a whole city treat you.
Speaker 2: You know, he felt like the whole city was treating
Speaker 2: him a certain way, and so that was a very
Speaker 2: very difficult time for him.
Speaker 5: Now, these trials weren't put together, weren't lumped together, they
Speaker 5: were separate. You talk about John Saunders and Mary French
Speaker 5: and the very very disturbing testimony of these people, and
Speaker 5: it explains how this seemingly charismatic Charles Schmidt convinced these
Speaker 5: people to do what they did tell us about what
Speaker 5: they say in court, testify to about Charles Smith and
Speaker 5: murder of Alene Rowe.
Speaker 2: So both Mary and John did. Actually, Mary French did
Speaker 2: go on the stand and she did tell the whole
Speaker 2: story and how it happened and how he did convince
Speaker 2: her to get Elene Rowe to come out. Her attorney
Speaker 2: did try to claim that she because she was so
Speaker 2: young and Charles Schmid was so much older, that she
Speaker 2: really couldn't be held responsible because he was so much
Speaker 2: older and she was so smitten with Schmid, and so
Speaker 2: they tried to, you know, really say that she was
Speaker 2: too young and innocent to really be held accountable for that.
Speaker 2: Although she was found guilty of her part, John Saunders
Speaker 2: actually pleaded the fifth and didn't end up testifying, but
Speaker 2: Mary French's testimony was really enough to show that Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid had convinced them to do this act and was
Speaker 2: clear that he was the mastermind of it and controlling
Speaker 2: the whole situation. And so the first trial was for
Speaker 2: Gretchen and Windy, but they really counted on Mary French
Speaker 2: and John Saunders to show with the ellen Row case
Speaker 2: that he was capable of murder. And that's when it
Speaker 2: came out that that Gretchen knew about the ellen Rowe killing,
Speaker 2: which is why she kind of held it over him,
Speaker 2: and that was the reason he ended up killing her. Unfortunately, Wendy,
Speaker 2: her younger sister, just happened to be with her, So
Speaker 2: unfortunately Wendy was killed with Gretchen as well. So you know,
Speaker 2: you think about a family that had two daughters and
Speaker 2: they both were killed. You know, it's just tragic. But
Speaker 2: and then there was a lot of teenagers that came
Speaker 2: on the stand and what I really realized, and I
Speaker 2: think this is where the Pied Piper of Tucson title
Speaker 2: really comes in, because so many teenagers came onto the
Speaker 2: stand and talked about Charles Schmid and these cases, and
Speaker 2: you know, they were so connected to Charles Schmid and
Speaker 2: defending Charles Schmid. And there were even kids that admitted
Speaker 2: that they were planning on something to do to my father,
Speaker 2: possibly kill him, just because he came forward to the police.
Speaker 2: And so there was this whole giant protection of Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid that you really realize. You know, he had this
Speaker 2: connection with teenagers that people were willing to keep a
Speaker 2: secrets and protect him to no end.
Speaker 5: There wasn't the media talk too of again misinformation, but
Speaker 5: talk of a sixty member sex club. So how did
Speaker 5: this rumor and where did they did they derive this
Speaker 5: salacious rumor from.
Speaker 2: So there were a ton of stories that were happening
Speaker 2: at that time, and my dad talks about, you know,
Speaker 2: after this all happened, that the media was just kind
Speaker 2: of out of control with all of these stories, and
Speaker 2: so there were tons of stories that came out about
Speaker 2: how there was, like you said, this giant sex club
Speaker 2: and that this is where this all you know, came
Speaker 2: about in these killings, and you know, all of it,
Speaker 2: according to my father, was all fabricated. There was no
Speaker 2: there was never any you know, sex club or these
Speaker 2: these things that people were talking about. But you know,
Speaker 2: a story that was already so sensational and crazy and frightening,
Speaker 2: they felt this need to even amplify it even more
Speaker 2: and to create even more drama around it, and so
Speaker 2: there were tons of different stories that were coming out
Speaker 2: that you know, I think my dad feels like it
Speaker 2: was like they had to figure out a reason why
Speaker 2: teenagers were keeping these secrets and that there had to
Speaker 2: be something more to it. But the reality is this
Speaker 2: was just a very charismatic, psychopathic man that was able
Speaker 2: to get people to follow him and to keep his secrets.
Speaker 2: And but there was you know, all of these other
Speaker 2: sensationalized stories were just you know, not a part of it.
Speaker 5: Now he talks about though to the second trial, and
Speaker 5: then an interesting i say, infamous attorney comes into play.
Speaker 5: So tell us how it comes that f Lee Bailey
Speaker 5: comes into the scene, and again the story looks like
Speaker 5: it's petering out. But there's much much more to this story,
Speaker 5: So tell us about Flee Billy and his contribution and
Speaker 5: what happens as a result of his representation.
Speaker 2: So right after the Gretchen and Wendy Fritz trials where
Speaker 2: Schmid was convicted to death for that, but then they
Speaker 2: right away after that had the Ellen Rowe case. Allen
Speaker 2: Rose's body at that point had still not been found,
Speaker 2: and Charles Schmid's attorney, his name was Kenny, he decided
Speaker 2: that he needed maybe some help trying to get this
Speaker 2: case overturned or get it thrown out. And f Lee
Speaker 2: Bailey at that time was already becoming a really famous
Speaker 2: attorney because he had just finished the trial with if
Speaker 2: anyone had seen the movie The Fugitive, the True Case
Speaker 2: of the Fugitive, and so Sam Shepherd was his name,
Speaker 2: and so he had just come off the Sam Shepherd
Speaker 2: case and was able to get that case turned around
Speaker 2: or thrown out. And so there was a belief that
Speaker 2: Flee Bailey could be the one to really get this
Speaker 2: case thrown out, and so they hired E. Flee Bailey
Speaker 2: to come on to the case, which created a huge
Speaker 2: media buzz here in Tucson, because again, as we talked
Speaker 2: in the beginning, Tuson was a very small, you know town,
Speaker 2: not a lot going on, and then suddenly you have
Speaker 2: this giant case that have become national news, and now
Speaker 2: you've got Flee Bailey coming to be on the case.
Speaker 2: He was only here a short time. He spent a
Speaker 2: couple of days here, and as soon as he spent
Speaker 2: any time with Schmid, he knew that Schmid was guilty.
Speaker 2: And he told the defense that, you know, there was
Speaker 2: no way they were going to get him off of this,
Speaker 2: and they convinced or E. Flee Bailey convinced Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: to plead guilty to the ellen Row case because he
Speaker 2: just said there was no way he was going to
Speaker 2: get off because he was, in Flee Bailey's words, he
Speaker 2: was insane and he knew that just from spending a
Speaker 2: short time with Charles Schmid.
Speaker 5: Right. And you also talk about in March sixty six,
Speaker 5: as you say, Charles Schmidt junior, first degree murder for
Speaker 5: Gretchen Wendy Fritz death penalty gas chamber and his wife
Speaker 5: at that time, Diane fifteen years old, a sobbing at
Speaker 5: this trial. But then soon after Schmidt claimed something concerning
Speaker 5: Flee Bailey and this case takes a little twist and
Speaker 5: turn mm hmm.
Speaker 2: So after he pleaded guilty to Aline Rowe shortly after that,
Speaker 2: because Aline Rowe they found even though they had no body,
Speaker 2: they said that she was beaten over the head with rocks.
Speaker 2: And that's what Mary French testified to Charles Schmid. Never confess,
Speaker 2: you know, at first, never really confessed. He never went
Speaker 2: on the stand, and so nobody ever really heard Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid tell anything about the cases. And so then he
Speaker 2: decided that he wanted to take the police out to
Speaker 2: Elene Roe's body to prove that her skull had not
Speaker 2: been fractured. And his hope was that he could prove
Speaker 2: that the case really didn't happen the way they claimed,
Speaker 2: and that he could, you know, claim that John Saunders
Speaker 2: was the one that really killed Eleene Row and that
Speaker 2: he had nothing to do with it. So he agreed
Speaker 2: to take them out to the bodies. He said that
Speaker 2: Flee Bailey cohersed him into pleading guilty and that he
Speaker 2: really wasn't and so he drove them out to the
Speaker 2: body of Elene Row and took them to the grave.
Speaker 2: But they did find that her skull was massively fractured,
Speaker 2: and therefore it did stand that he was still guilty.
Speaker 5: You also talk about in nineteen seventy one, the US
Speaker 5: Supreme Court declares capital punishment laws in Arizona unconstitutional, Schmid's
Speaker 5: sentences commuted to fifty years. Then you talk about October
Speaker 5: seventy two, you talk about Schmid disappears from his maximum
Speaker 5: security prison cell, and there's some roadblocks set up, and
Speaker 5: the police search inside and out, and they find him
Speaker 5: a few hours later hiding in the prison welding shop.
Speaker 5: Tell us what happens in November seventy two, right.
Speaker 2: So he did possibly attempt in October when they found
Speaker 2: him in the welding shop, to escape, but then in November,
Speaker 2: a month later, he did successfully escape. So, as you mentioned,
Speaker 2: his death penalty was commuted to fifty years because they
Speaker 2: found the death penalty the unconstitutional here in Arizona. And
Speaker 2: once he was no longer sentenced to death, he was
Speaker 2: treated like every other prisoner and he was actually allowed
Speaker 2: to go off of the prison grounds and work as
Speaker 2: they let prisoners do on the you know, working on
Speaker 2: the streets and things, picking up litter and stuff. So
Speaker 2: he was outside of the prison walls and ended up
Speaker 2: escaping with another triple murderer, Raymond Hudgens, And they did
Speaker 2: escape from Florence Prison, and they ended up taking several
Speaker 2: hostages from one of the little nearby towns and eventually
Speaker 2: they split up. Charles Schmid ends up heading toward Tucson,
Speaker 2: and Raymond Hudgens is found going another direction. The place
Speaker 2: at that time had reason to believe that my father
Speaker 2: might be in danger, and so I was just a
Speaker 2: small toddler at that time. But they did take my
Speaker 2: father and us and my mother and we were all
Speaker 2: put under police protection because it was believed that he
Speaker 2: was heading towards Tucson. And they did end up finding
Speaker 2: Schmid in Tucson at a rail yard, and they ended
Speaker 2: up taking him back into custody. But he did successfully
Speaker 2: escape from prison in November nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 5: You talk about now in nineteen seventy four, all those
Speaker 5: appeals are exhausted. He changes his name legally to Paul
Speaker 5: David Ashley, and then in nineteen seventy five in March,
Speaker 5: tell us what happens to him in prison?
Speaker 2: So in prison, two fellow inmates stab and beat him
Speaker 2: anywhere between twenty and forty stab wounds. They completely just
Speaker 2: you know, he ends up with a seven lung and
Speaker 2: an i that ends up having to be taken out,
Speaker 2: and you know, really just horribly stabbed in prison, and
Speaker 2: then ten days later he ends up dying from those
Speaker 2: those wounds. So he is killed by two fellow inmates.
Speaker 2: It's hard to say, you know, there's a it's never
Speaker 2: really clear exactly why they did it. The confusing thing
Speaker 2: is both of these inmates that stabbed him were not
Speaker 2: in there for anything serious, and they both would have
Speaker 2: been out of prison in less than ten years. So
Speaker 2: there is speculation as Joe Bernano had been involved when
Speaker 2: they first were looking for Gretchen and Wendy. There is
Speaker 2: some speculation that it may have been a mafia hit
Speaker 2: for the Fritz family, but it's hard to there's no
Speaker 2: real clear answers as to why these two inmates attacked
Speaker 2: and killed him.
Speaker 5: You talk about the sentences, well, I think we mentioned it,
Speaker 5: but John Saunders, nineteen years old at that time, pled
Speaker 5: guilty to secondary murder and he got a life sentence,
Speaker 5: and you talk about that that was as far as
Speaker 5: you know, about fifteen years and he was released, and
Speaker 5: then that Mary French received four to five years and
Speaker 5: then she was released in you say about three years, yes.
Speaker 2: So she did three years time and then from what
Speaker 2: we know, she told reporters that she was going to
Speaker 2: Texas when she was released. And then John Saunders. There
Speaker 2: is a John Saunders who fifteen years after sentencing was
Speaker 2: released from Florence State Prison. He didn't receive a life sentence,
Speaker 2: but about fifteen years would have been what a life
Speaker 2: sentence really, you know what you served at that time.
Speaker 2: So it's you know, it's assumed that that would be
Speaker 2: the John Saunders who did go to Floren's prison, but
Speaker 2: he was released fifteen years later.
Speaker 5: You include something that's very very interesting at the end
Speaker 5: of the book, the twenty and seventeen interview with Richard Bruns.
Speaker 5: Your father tell us a little bit about this and
Speaker 5: what is learned from this interview, So.
Speaker 2: He does share you know, I think one of the
Speaker 2: interesting things for me as a daughter to have read
Speaker 2: the story that and I think what makes this book
Speaker 2: really unique is it's written. It's written fifty years ago.
Speaker 2: If my father wrote this book today, it would not
Speaker 2: be the same story because people change after fifty years,
Speaker 2: their opinions of things and their feelings of things change.
Speaker 2: When you read the book, you really do sense that
Speaker 2: there was a big struggle with my father in that
Speaker 2: he still really cared for Charles Schmid somehow, and you know,
Speaker 2: they were really close friends, and this was a real
Speaker 2: big struggle for him, you know, in in doing the
Speaker 2: interview to kind of update the reader on my father, now,
Speaker 2: you know, one thing that I really gather is that
Speaker 2: you know, he he has a much more cynical feeling
Speaker 2: toward Charles Schmid now than maybe he even did when
Speaker 2: he wrote this so fresh and new after the cases.
Speaker 2: But he does share in his interview, you know, the
Speaker 2: things that happen after the cases and the struggles he
Speaker 2: had trying to you know, he had he had married
Speaker 2: shortly actually during one of the trials, the second trial
Speaker 2: he married. He had my older sister, and so he
Speaker 2: was trying to start a family and really struggled in Tucson.
Speaker 2: Every time he got a job and people would find
Speaker 2: out who he is, he would get fired. He was
Speaker 2: just really having a hard time moving forward in his
Speaker 2: life and moving forward from these cases. He even you know,
Speaker 2: tried to go to Phoenix to find work there. Eventually
Speaker 2: they did stay here and settle in Tucson. He eventually
Speaker 2: did go to the u of A and become a teacher,
Speaker 2: and you know, he was able to move forward forward
Speaker 2: in his life and you know, with a wonderful, loving father,
Speaker 2: and you know, it's amazing us growing up, this wasn't
Speaker 2: a part of our history at all, because it just
Speaker 2: wasn't something that was talked about. And and so reading
Speaker 2: this book, I think for me that's what was so
Speaker 2: surprising to me is not even knowing all of this
Speaker 2: had happened, and then to read it from my dad's perspective.
Speaker 2: But he just talks in the interview about, you know,
Speaker 2: how he moved forward and you know, his life after
Speaker 2: the trials.
Speaker 5: There's an interesting story in there that's very, very demonstrative
Speaker 5: and very visual, is that you her father was hitchhiking,
Speaker 5: still live in that home and hitch hiking for work,
Speaker 5: and there there is an event that is very that
Speaker 5: you know, it probably stays with him today, no doubt.
Speaker 5: So tell us about this fork in the road incident
Speaker 5: he was.
Speaker 2: It was when he decided he was going to hitchhike
Speaker 2: to Phoenix. He didn't have a car, so he was
Speaker 2: hitch hiking to Phoenix to find work. And there was
Speaker 2: a small town that at that time you had to
Speaker 2: kind of travel through because our main highway hadn't been
Speaker 2: built yet. And so the small town he had been
Speaker 2: traveling through to get to Phoenix and was dropped off
Speaker 2: there and so was waiting for another ride from that point,
Speaker 2: and he was just waiting for a car to come
Speaker 2: by to you know, continue hitchhiking along. And he on
Speaker 2: that same day that he was hitch hiking to Phoenix
Speaker 2: from Tucson, it was the same day that Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: was being transferred from Tucson to Florence State Prison, which
Speaker 2: you had to go through that same small town to
Speaker 2: get the Floren's State Prison. And as he was sitting
Speaker 2: there waiting for a ride, he saw an unmarked police
Speaker 2: vehicle coming down the road, and it turned out that
Speaker 2: it actually was the car that was traveling with Charles
Speaker 2: Schmid in the back seat. And he watched the car
Speaker 2: go by, you know, with Charles Schmid, and you know,
Speaker 2: he writes about and again the way he writes that
Speaker 2: I can't tell the story the way you know that
Speaker 2: he shares his emotion in that, but you know, to
Speaker 2: be standing there trying to move forward in his life
Speaker 2: and to have that vehicle drive by with Charles Schmid
Speaker 2: in the back seat, who kind of looked past him
Speaker 2: but didn't seem to really register, you know, his mind
Speaker 2: seemed to be somewhere completely different. But he watched him
Speaker 2: drive by, and it really was, what he says, one
Speaker 2: of the most traumatic moments of his life. It was just,
Speaker 2: you know, in fact, he couldn't even you know, he
Speaker 2: told me he couldn't even keep going to Phoenix. He
Speaker 2: ended up turning around and coming back to Tucson because
Speaker 2: he was so thrown and so shocked that this just happened.
Speaker 2: And so it definitely was a traumatic moment, and you know,
Speaker 2: kind of very almost poetic the way this, you know,
Speaker 2: ends with them each going their separate ways, and just
Speaker 2: an unbelievable moment. Really.
Speaker 5: You also talk about your father and the other characters,
Speaker 5: Mary French, John Saunders, Paul g what happens with in
Speaker 5: terms of speaking to those people again.
Speaker 2: He really doesn't ever speak to them again. Now he does.
Speaker 2: Cafi continued to live in Tucson as well, and for
Speaker 2: a couple of different times, my father does end up
Speaker 2: seeing Kathy different places. They really just looked at each other.
Speaker 2: They didn't say anything. They've never spoken again. And Paul
Speaker 2: ended up a at least at some point. He was
Speaker 2: a delivery driver who actually delivered something to a print
Speaker 2: shop that my father was working at here in town,
Speaker 2: and they saw each other. And so each time he
Speaker 2: saw these two people, I think there was you know,
Speaker 2: I think all of them wanted to move forward from
Speaker 2: these cases and the story, and so they see each
Speaker 2: other that they never say anything to each other, and
Speaker 2: then over time they just never did see each other again.
Speaker 2: So it could be that they just got older and
Speaker 2: maybe they saw each other but didn't recognize each other.
Speaker 2: But you know, my understanding is that Kathy still lives
Speaker 2: here in Tucson, So you know, it's hard to say
Speaker 2: they could have seen each other and not known, but
Speaker 2: they all just, you know, kind of moved forward.
Speaker 5: You say, this affected the city of Tucson, but memories fade.
Speaker 5: But this story has been revived several times over the years,
Speaker 5: hasn't it. And then you say that, yeah, your father
Speaker 5: thinks it's inaccurate and incomplete, but it has it has
Speaker 5: not gone away, this story, has it.
Speaker 2: It hasn't and you know what always confused my father's
Speaker 2: you know, he says that he doesn't understand there's so
Speaker 2: many cases and so many stories of serial killers that
Speaker 2: killed many more people, you know, and are much more
Speaker 2: I guess, over the top stories, and he never quite
Speaker 2: understood what made what makes the story so interesting that
Speaker 2: people keep bringing it up. And I really think it
Speaker 2: comes down to the fact that, you know, you're talking
Speaker 2: about the town of Tucson that was such an innocent place,
Speaker 2: and you know, Charles Schmid. These murders happened before Charles Manson,
Speaker 2: and so this idea that somebody could get a following
Speaker 2: and get teenagers to murder with him. And then when
Speaker 2: you look at the pictures of Charles Schmid and just
Speaker 2: see how you know, odd he was and how odd
Speaker 2: he looked. I think there's so many pieces to this story.
Speaker 2: And then for my father's piece in it to have
Speaker 2: this question mark of you know, you have this other
Speaker 2: person that had this connection with Charles Schmid, and so
Speaker 2: I think it all creates just a really intriguing story
Speaker 2: that keeps, you know, surfacing, because I do think it
Speaker 2: was just so unique for the time, and while you know,
Speaker 2: I just I do think it probably is going to
Speaker 2: just keep coming to the surface. It's been fifty years
Speaker 2: and it's you know, still coming to the surface, which
Speaker 2: is again why I really am glad that my father
Speaker 2: agreed to have his story out there, because at least
Speaker 2: his side can be known and heard, and I think
Speaker 2: that's so important for my father. As a daughter, I
Speaker 2: want that for him.
Speaker 5: It seems that this story is prior to some of
Speaker 5: the other stories that are them an ad famous where
Speaker 5: teenagers have the phenomena of having at least an initial
Speaker 5: loyalty to their friends not to immediately run to the
Speaker 5: police when they've seen something like this, like murders. And
Speaker 5: also the idea that your father was criticized because he
Speaker 5: didn't come forward immediately. They said, well, why did it
Speaker 5: take a couple months? And so your father was always
Speaker 5: questioned about why why he didn't do something sooner.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the only thing that I would
Speaker 2: encourage people to think about, you know, when you hear
Speaker 2: this story or read the story, is and I mentioned
Speaker 2: it before, this was a different time when you know nowadays,
Speaker 2: if if I if I have a friend that confides
Speaker 2: in me that they murdered somebody, and I go to
Speaker 2: the police. You know, nowadays, if somebody knows who the
Speaker 2: suspect is, there's all of these dots that they can connect.
Speaker 2: There's you know, computers, and there's cell phone records and
Speaker 2: DNA and all of this. This was a time when
Speaker 2: all my father had was a story, and nobody knows
Speaker 2: what would have come of that if he did go
Speaker 2: to the police. He had no proof of anything, you know,
Speaker 2: up into the time that he was shown the two bodies,
Speaker 2: and so it's easy from an outsider's perspective to look
Speaker 2: in and go, oh, well, you know, if he wasn't
Speaker 2: guilty of something, he would have gone to the police
Speaker 2: right away. But the truth is, you know, he didn't
Speaker 2: have a lot to share except for a story, and
Speaker 2: at that time, you know, there wasn't a lot for
Speaker 2: police to put together. And so it would have been
Speaker 2: my father's word against Charles Schmid's word, and my father
Speaker 2: would have probably put himself into a lot of danger
Speaker 2: at that time, or at least that I'm sure he
Speaker 2: was fearful of that. So I would just you know,
Speaker 2: ask people to kind of see it for the time
Speaker 2: that it was and understand as a young man, you
Speaker 2: know what you know It's easy to look from an
Speaker 2: outside and say that that's what you would have done,
Speaker 2: but you know it wasn't as simple as that.
Speaker 5: There's a crucial scene in this book, the defining moment
Speaker 5: for your father, where he knows this information. He has
Speaker 5: told this information again, he's not quite sure if this
Speaker 5: isn't just part of elaborate lies. But then he does
Speaker 5: the test himself so that he knows himself in his
Speaker 5: heart of hearts and asks to see those bodies. So
Speaker 5: he's very clever and genius in being able to do
Speaker 5: something that will prove it to himself. And then once
Speaker 5: that has proven to himself, he does the appropriate thing. Yes,
Speaker 5: very interesting. Yes, I want to thank you very much
Speaker 5: Lisa as Bitch for coming on and talking about your
Speaker 5: father's book. I A Squealer, The Insider's Account of the
Speaker 5: Pied Piper of Tucson Murders. For those that might want
Speaker 5: to do you have a Facebook page or a website
Speaker 5: for the book, how might people you go to?
Speaker 2: If you go to AA squealer dot com is the
Speaker 2: website for the book, and there's a book trailer there.
Speaker 2: There's other things about the book and the story, and
Speaker 2: there is links to by the book on Amazon, Barnes
Speaker 2: and Noble, but you can pretty much find the book
Speaker 2: anywhere books are sold. And I just want to tell
Speaker 2: you thank you so much for allowing me this opportunity
Speaker 2: to share the story.
Speaker 5: Thank you, it has been a pleasure. It is an
Speaker 5: incredible story and I'm glad that you and your sisters
Speaker 5: brought this incredible story to light on. Behalf of your
Speaker 5: Father is a book that needs to be read. Thank
Speaker 5: you so much. Hope to speak to you again. Good
Speaker 5: thank you, Dan, thank you, good night.
Speaker 2: Thank you