Speaker 1: In Florida, the Satanic Temple is stepping up to fill
Speaker 1: Google council roles after a new law sign by Governor
Speaker 1: n DeSantis allow religious chaplains to a public school. Yes,
Speaker 1: you heard that right. It seems the devil is in
Speaker 1: the details, quite literal. Lucian Greeves, Co's founder of the
Speaker 1: Satanic Temple, argues that excluding them defy the First Amendment,
Speaker 1: while DeSantis insists Satanism isn't a religious So grab your
Speaker 1: popcorn and suspend your belief as we explore this unexpected
Speaker 1: twist in the ongoing debate over religious freedom of public
Speaker 1: let's get into it. The story is from the Hill
Speaker 1: by lexilonis published July eighth, twenty twenty. So, parent, I
Speaker 1: want to ask you, when we're considering constitutional rights and
Speaker 1: religious freedom, what are the implications of allowing religious chaplains,
Speaker 1: including those from non Christian faithed like Sactany, in the
Speaker 1: public school setting.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, children are very susceptible. They're like little sponges.
Speaker 2: They believe leave what they are told and by trusted adults.
Speaker 2: There's a reason miners have there's laws around miners and
Speaker 2: age of consent and things like that because it's really
Speaker 2: really easy to take advantage of kids, whether you intend
Speaker 2: to or not. And so it's what we teach our
Speaker 2: kids is really important because whatever you teach them, it
Speaker 2: is indoctrination because they are not old enough to know
Speaker 2: if they're being indoctrinate or not. They haven't their brains
Speaker 2: aren't developed yet. So we have to be really, really careful.
Speaker 2: And so if we start introducing chaplains in schools, children
Speaker 2: are going to see that as oh, this religion is right,
Speaker 2: this person's religion is correct, and I should follow that religion.
Speaker 2: And that's not something we want to indoctrinate our kids with.
Speaker 2: Indoctrinate our kids with. We want to indoctrinate our kids
Speaker 2: with the ability to think critically, to think skeptically, to
Speaker 2: understand human biases and how to use the scientificific method
Speaker 2: to get around our biases, and to understand the way
Speaker 2: the world works rather than the way our brains think
Speaker 2: it works. Those are the things that we should be
Speaker 2: teaching our kids, how to find jobs and all that
Speaker 2: good stuff. But we should not have religious people in schools.
Speaker 2: It's just that's not the right place for it. If
Speaker 2: you want to doctor your kids with religion, do it
Speaker 2: on your own time, do it on Sunday, do it
Speaker 2: in church, but don't do it in school. We're paying
Speaker 2: for school as taxpayers, and having religion in school it
Speaker 2: favors one religion over another. And what if I'm not
Speaker 2: your religion. I don't want my money going towards those
Speaker 2: kinds of services. Even though in this case there's no
Speaker 2: money being spent because the chaplains have to be volunteers,
Speaker 2: they can't be paid. But I think my point still stands.
Speaker 1: That's fair, that's fair. And I want to ask you, Tao.
Speaker 1: I think that you talked about a little bit about
Speaker 1: your experience with especially like since we're talking about the
Speaker 1: possibility of having Satani's clergy in public school, you want
Speaker 1: to tell you a little bit more.
Speaker 3: I have an interesting story about those guys. Actually, the
Speaker 3: first time that I read about them, I really this
Speaker 3: slight the idea because I saw them as a counterpart
Speaker 3: to religion, which they actually are. But I was checking
Speaker 3: that they have their own tenants, they have their own
Speaker 3: leaders or stuff like that, and I was like, dude,
Speaker 3: did you really leave your religion to join another paramiter scheme?
Speaker 3: But now actually they just do this one to mock
Speaker 3: religion and to because they having all of that, they
Speaker 3: can legally be a religion despite them being all or
Speaker 3: most of them atheists. I work with some with many
Speaker 3: Satanists nowadays. Some of them are cool people, others are assholes,
Speaker 3: So it depends on the person. But I called them
Speaker 3: a tacles of religion because they dress themselves as religious
Speaker 3: people just to fight against religion, which I think is
Speaker 3: amazing and it is something that is actually needed because
Speaker 3: they show their religious people why there should be no
Speaker 3: religion with special privileges. I mean, you think it would
Speaker 3: be enough telling them, hey, look what is happening in
Speaker 3: the middle is over there, there are religions that have
Speaker 3: the power, but apparently know they see not and they
Speaker 3: want that but with the religion version, with the Christian
Speaker 3: version instead over here. So when you have the sudden
Speaker 3: ext temple that they dress as Satanic people, that they
Speaker 3: go with their prayers. I remember when they were fighting
Speaker 3: to have their own prayers instead of the Christian ones
Speaker 3: at the beginning of what was it do when you
Speaker 3: have judges and all of that, Well those things Christians
Speaker 3: were screaming and they were very anxious because I know
Speaker 3: they are using real words, they are cursing us because
Speaker 3: they believe that the religion is kind of true and
Speaker 3: all the magical stuff is real. So having those groups
Speaker 3: telling people, ay, you cannot go and put your monuments
Speaker 3: wherever you want, because in that case we can do
Speaker 3: the same, and we have bafflement that is something that
Speaker 3: you hate and name them, realize, yeah, maybe we do
Speaker 3: need a separation so that these evil people that we
Speaker 3: don't like don't do whatever they want in the same
Speaker 3: way that we do it. And I think that what
Speaker 3: they are doing is something necessary and good for them.
Speaker 3: Good for them, I hear that. I hear that.
Speaker 1: So, Kiera, I was curious to get your thoughts. Governor
Speaker 1: DeSantis describes Satan as not and excluded its members from
Speaker 1: participating in the Chapin program. So how should governments navigate
Speaker 1: the inclusion of diverse religious practice in publicans it's while
Speaker 1: ensuring fairness and constitutional compliant.
Speaker 4: Well, that's a great question. I think I'll answer the
Speaker 4: second part of your question. First. I think the best
Speaker 4: way to navigate that is to not make attempts to
Speaker 4: implement or favor one religious belief or group over another.
Speaker 4: The further that government organizations and policies can stay away
Speaker 4: from religion the better. That is my understanding of the
Speaker 4: law in most cases. But as far as being able
Speaker 4: to say, well, this is a religion and that is
Speaker 4: not a religion, that that is a legal question that
Speaker 4: has come up, there is legal precedent that it's a
Speaker 4: little bit murky. I think one of the ways that
Speaker 4: it's been defined is something as a religion if it
Speaker 4: functions as a religion to the person who is practicing it, So,
Speaker 4: you know, by by that definition, I think certainly Satanism
Speaker 4: and the Satanic Temple would would obviously fall under that definition,
Speaker 4: and and I think under most others that are commonly
Speaker 4: used when we're talking about you know, sincerely held beliefs
Speaker 4: about issues of ultimate concern, people's beliefs about you know,
Speaker 4: questions of meaning of life, death and so on. And
Speaker 4: there is absolutely no precedent for suggesting that something is
Speaker 4: not religious because it is not theistic. That is certainly
Speaker 4: not the case. There are plenty of non theistic religions
Speaker 4: besides the Satanic Temple, Buddhism, Taoism, that that is not
Speaker 4: an excluding factor. So I think it is actually fairly
Speaker 4: an absurd claim to dismiss out of hand the Satanic
Speaker 4: Temple as not a religious group. I think that anyone
Speaker 4: making that claim is going to have a difficult road
Speaker 4: ahead of them. And the problem with that is that
Speaker 4: it I think it reveals the motivation here, which is
Speaker 4: not to introduce a program where children can have access
Speaker 4: to chaplains who represent them or are going to be
Speaker 4: reflecting their beliefs, but rather, I think this is intentionally
Speaker 4: trying to institute a program where certain religious beliefs and
Speaker 4: representatives of certain religious faiths are going to be allowed
Speaker 4: in and not others. That that has been explicitly stated
Speaker 4: by these remarks, and you know, the problem with that
Speaker 4: is that that is illegal. Did that answer your question?
Speaker 3: It did?
Speaker 1: It did, And I kind of just wanted to just
Speaker 1: interject that the only entities definition of that matter about
Speaker 1: what is considered a really regions IRA reason being is
Speaker 1: because the IRS, through like legal tax code, has there's
Speaker 1: laws in place basically on how you're supposed to treat
Speaker 1: religious organizations, specifically in the United States, and according to
Speaker 1: the IRS, what constitutes as a religion is a religious
Speaker 1: organization may be properly characterized as a church. The service
Speaker 1: considers whether the organization has the following characteristic a distinct
Speaker 1: legal existence, a recognized creed and form of worship, and
Speaker 1: a definite and distinct ecclesiastical tenet. And if you really
Speaker 1: look at the Satanic Temple, they have all of those things.
Speaker 1: So who's to say that they are not a religion? Now,
Speaker 1: whether if you agree with the existence the tenants the
Speaker 1: practices of religion is one thing, but that's very subject.
Speaker 1: If there are specific definition that will constitute a religion
Speaker 1: organization a church person in order for this organization to
Speaker 1: exist and be able to live under that particular tax
Speaker 1: code is not up to you. It's not up to I,
Speaker 1: and it's not up to the same It's up to
Speaker 1: Dirra and those laws have our replaced. So Eric, I
Speaker 1: want to know from you what are the potential benefit
Speaker 1: and drawbacks of introducing chaplains from various religious backgrounds into
Speaker 1: public schools. I know you talked about indoctrination and kids
Speaker 1: not necessarily having the wherewithal too even tell if they've
Speaker 1: been in doctor or I. So, do you happen to
Speaker 1: see a drawback from this? Do you see a benefit
Speaker 1: from this and why or why not?
Speaker 2: I think I don't really see a benefit here. I
Speaker 2: think this is a way of sneaking religion into schools.
Speaker 2: The people that are when you do you get to
Speaker 2: be a volunteer. You don't get paid. So there are
Speaker 2: certain rules. If you look at the of the house
Speaker 2: built Housbald nine thirty one, it requires these volunteers to
Speaker 2: pass the background check. Students have to have written permission
Speaker 2: from their parents to engage with the chaplain. The school
Speaker 2: has to publish a list of the chaplains and the
Speaker 2: religious affiliations to the school's website. And that's probably just
Speaker 2: to make sure that you're sending your kid to the
Speaker 2: right to the right Christian chaplain. And each district has
Speaker 2: to have a prescribed way that chaplains will be used
Speaker 2: to support for support services or programs. They have to
Speaker 2: define how chaplains are going to be used. But even
Speaker 2: giving all those you know on the services all that's fine.
Speaker 2: You know, there seems to be some kind of restrictions.
Speaker 2: But bs, this is just a way of getting of
Speaker 2: getting religion in schools. This is just a way of
Speaker 2: getting people to preach Jesus, preach to Abraham of God
Speaker 2: at schools. If somebody wanted to send an Islamic preacher
Speaker 2: to the schools. Yeah, that's not probably not going to happen.
Speaker 2: This is definitely a Christian thing. And like I said earlier,
Speaker 2: what if people really want if they're trying to solve
Speaker 2: a problem, like, let's let's let's let's strong man their
Speaker 2: reason why we need kids need help in school? Right,
Speaker 2: kids need chaplain, they need guidance. Well, then why don't
Speaker 2: you give them money so they can hire counselors. Right,
Speaker 2: that's that's solving the problem in a non religious, in
Speaker 2: a secular way. Let's solve the real problem. And why
Speaker 2: don't you fund schools. Why don't you give teachers, pay
Speaker 2: teachers better? Why don't you give teachers better budgets so
Speaker 2: they can have better lessons and have better equipment and
Speaker 2: reduce class sizes and all that stuff. This is on
Speaker 2: the service. It seems like, oh, we're trying to help students,
Speaker 2: but they're not. Really, they're not doing anything that would
Speaker 2: actually help in any measure way students in any way.
Speaker 2: If they really wanted to help students, they would get
Speaker 2: licensed therapists, licensed counselors into schools that nobody would have
Speaker 2: any problem with kids engaging. And you wouldn't need parent signatures.
Speaker 1: You know, Aarin, you almost talk like people who are
Speaker 1: making this stuff up have sense. But Kara, I want
Speaker 1: to know from you. The Satanic Temple itself actually claims
Speaker 1: that Florida law is allowing connect them. Right, you're saying like,
Speaker 1: if you're going to have like chaplains insides that you
Speaker 1: have to inclose all organizations that have to exist, them
Speaker 1: being one of them. So how should states balance the
Speaker 1: rights of religious minority with public sentiment and legal precedent
Speaker 1: regarding the establishment.
Speaker 4: Well, I think there's a really easy way to do that,
Speaker 4: and that is to not introduce programs like these into schools.
Speaker 4: Just don't do it.
Speaker 3: You said, what, right?
Speaker 4: I mean, that's almost too simple. If you don't want
Speaker 4: to have to compete with other religious beliefs that contradict
Speaker 4: your own, don't try and introduce your own. Then you
Speaker 4: won't have a problem. You know, people can practice whatever
Speaker 4: they want to at home, people can practice whatever they
Speaker 4: want to in public. But when you start introducing it
Speaker 4: as part of the public schools system or some other
Speaker 4: government run event, now you're sanctioning one set of beliefs
Speaker 4: that may be directly in conflict with someone else's And
Speaker 4: that's the reason for the problem. It's not just that, oh,
Speaker 4: I want to have the right to express my beliefs,
Speaker 4: will you do? What you don't have the right to
Speaker 4: do is express your beliefs over and above and on
Speaker 4: top of everyone else's and condemn and forbid other people
Speaker 4: from having their other beliefs, which is what this kind
Speaker 4: of thing functionally does. So yeah, the really easy way
Speaker 4: to avoid that problem is to not do it again.
Speaker 1: Like Aaron Kara, you act like the people who are
Speaker 1: introducing these things have sense. But TAYO want to know
Speaker 1: from you what states actually increasingly considering legislation to introduce
Speaker 1: religious teachings like the Bible. I believe that Ryan Walters
Speaker 1: wanted to make the Bible in Oklahoma's public heart of
Speaker 1: the lesson plans like you have to do. And then
Speaker 1: also too, we have the case in Louisiana with the
Speaker 1: Ten Commandments, have been having to go into every public
Speaker 1: school class stating from the governor that if you want
Speaker 1: to talk about the law, you must first give credence
Speaker 1: to the lawgiver.
Speaker 2: And don't forget Texas, Yes, and there curriculum that comes
Speaker 2: from the Bible based curriculum that they're paying school districts
Speaker 2: to roll out.
Speaker 1: M you know, you can never not talk about Texas,
Speaker 1: especially on this shows. Don't mess with Texas. But you know,
Speaker 1: I'm curious to oh, you know, I know that you
Speaker 1: are in Latin America, but how should states actually balance
Speaker 1: the rights of religious minorities with public with the public
Speaker 1: and make sure that they're actually, you know, being more
Speaker 1: inclusive when it comes to you know, those who happen
Speaker 1: to have a religious background and those who don't have
Speaker 1: a religious backgage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say, you're asking the Latin
Speaker 3: guy to talk about the USA. I think that what
Speaker 3: you're asking is in general, how this could be sold,
Speaker 3: because this could help all countries all over the world.
Speaker 3: And actually there is a very simple solution. Get atheists
Speaker 3: to teach this, Get anyone who doesn't have a specific
Speaker 3: religion teaching about all religions in the same way. And
Speaker 3: I think that, yeah, it would be great to have
Speaker 3: every single child learning about all religions in the same
Speaker 3: way that they should learn as myths that some people
Speaker 3: believe to be true. And you should get somebody who
Speaker 3: is clearly not going to say and this is the
Speaker 3: only real religion. No, an atheist, we believe that all
Speaker 3: religions are fairy tale, so we're going to be fair
Speaker 3: to all of them, and we're going to say, yeah,
Speaker 3: I must believe that Allah is the only God that
Speaker 3: has no children. But Christians believe that Jesus is the
Speaker 3: son of God. So therefore that is a contradiction. But
Speaker 3: they are both based on the same God from the
Speaker 3: Abrahamic religion. And then you can talk about Abraham and
Speaker 3: the stuff that they believe back then, about Babylon, Babylon
Speaker 3: and you know, all those myths that have been dragging
Speaker 3: until nowadays. And yeah, that's how you get people who
Speaker 3: know about religion and who realizes that a So, what
Speaker 3: my parents believe is not the only thing that people
Speaker 3: believe out there. There are other things other that makes
Speaker 3: more sense or even less sense, and that would be
Speaker 3: great for every teenager out there, according to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah you know, I so, guys, I just did like
Speaker 1: a quick ask of my residential AI specifically, what in
Speaker 1: the world are the responsibilities of a school chap like,
Speaker 1: what specifically are they to do? Even though this is
Speaker 1: a voluntary position according to the law that we should
Speaker 1: sign into and sign by the santas.
Speaker 3: Like what why why?
Speaker 1: Like what are the wise behind the chaplains?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: And according to my AI, it said that the school
Speaker 1: chaplain's responsibilities can vary depending on this, but they generally
Speaker 1: support the social, emotional, mental, and spiritual well built being
Speaker 1: of students and the school community. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that I wanted to read specifically the portions that
Speaker 1: it talked about for religious pastoral care and also student advice.
Speaker 1: So according to this, it says that chaplains can provide
Speaker 1: counseling and engaged students and structured programs to help with
Speaker 1: self esteem, build confident, and develop skills in relationships. And
Speaker 1: they can also help students deal with issues like family conflict, anxiety, anger, bullying, grief,
Speaker 1: and law. And then another one I found very interesting
Speaker 1: when it comes to student advising, said that chaplains can
Speaker 1: meet with individual students and run small group programs on
Speaker 1: topics like resilience, friendship, and anger. Oh and one more
Speaker 1: thing is said too it has other responsibilities. It says
Speaker 1: that chaplains may also coach land retreat and be visible
Speaker 1: safe adult during break time. So my question to all
Speaker 1: of and and and you know this this a quick
Speaker 1: response I'm going to start from Kara, than Tail, than Aaron.
Speaker 1: Does this really mean that a chaplain in this case,
Speaker 1: when we're looking at their responsibilities in their in the
Speaker 1: things that they are expect and their expectation, does this
Speaker 1: have to be a religious position?
Speaker 4: Kara oh, I don't think it does. That description certainly
Speaker 4: doesn't have to be religious. Really, there wasn't much religious
Speaker 4: about that description. I think this is a way to
Speaker 4: smuggle religion in and create a situation where you can
Speaker 4: have chaplains who come from If all of the chaplains
Speaker 4: come from a very particular spiritual belief system, that may
Speaker 4: seep into these other services that they're providing. But if,
Speaker 4: on the other hand, chaplains are coming from all different
Speaker 4: backgrounds and belief systems secular, Humanist, Satanist, a Christian, Muslim, Jewish,
Speaker 4: whatever else, then children could go to whicheverone suited them.
Speaker 4: But I think the main difference is that it's whether
Speaker 4: or not you create a situation where a certain spiritual
Speaker 4: worldview is sneaking in or not.
Speaker 1: What about you, Tevy, what do you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, what you mentioned is a consulor that's not our
Speaker 3: religious position. If you have somebody there you actually want
Speaker 3: somebody who is a secure as possible, because trust me,
Speaker 3: there is nothing worse than telling somebody I have a
Speaker 3: lot of problems. H do you pray? No, I don't
Speaker 3: believe in any guy. Don't worry. We'll pray for you.
Speaker 3: That's the shittiest answer that you can get, and subtly
Speaker 3: is the most common one that you're going to get.
Speaker 3: And if you have a chaplain that is going to
Speaker 3: be there for you to answer your your questions, you're
Speaker 3: not going to get real help. You're just going to
Speaker 3: get a religious propagandan. That's it.
Speaker 1: I agree, and we're given the last word to Aaron.
Speaker 3: What say you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a reason you can't get a license to
Speaker 2: be a therapist or council just just because you're Christian
Speaker 2: or Jewish or Islamic. They just don't do it. You
Speaker 2: have to go and get training. When you're reading off
Speaker 2: that list of you know what chaplains do? In my head,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking a Christian chaplain doing that.
Speaker 3: I knows it.
Speaker 2: You know Christianity. I grew up Christian and they teach
Speaker 2: you that you're a sinner. You know that you're by
Speaker 2: default that you're broken, and that you're awful and that
Speaker 2: you need Jesus, and they use you know, many people
Speaker 2: point out it's kind of abusive language, like you're only
Speaker 2: good if Jesus is in your life, and chaplains that's
Speaker 2: that's what they're if you let them in a school
Speaker 2: when they help people, that's what they're going to do
Speaker 2: because that's what they know. They're going to teach you
Speaker 2: about Jesus and that you're awful and that you need Jesus.
Speaker 2: And and that's not what we need. What we need
Speaker 2: is evidence based help for kids to help them manage
Speaker 2: their emotion, to manage their problems, manage their home lives
Speaker 2: if they need it, manage stress, all those things, and
Speaker 2: there are healthy ways of doing that, and that's why
Speaker 2: we need people that are licensed, that have been trained
Speaker 2: and understand how them human brain and emotions work that
Speaker 2: can help kids out