WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.720 You're listening to an air Wave media podcast. 2 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:20.199 Is cryptozoology is science? Surely, searching for the solution the 3 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:25.000 mysteries is part of science. But is scrypto zoology or 4 00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:25.920 is it something else? 5 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:27.920 Is it just a game? 6 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:31.839 The intersection of science and cryptozoology will be discussed in 7 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:34.399 the next two episodes of Monster Tongue. In this episode, 8 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:46.640 Part one, featuring doctor Darren Nash, it's actually. 9 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:48.560 Quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 10 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:56.000 A giant hairy creature party part of mat in Larkness, 11 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:58.520 about twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the 12 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:37.560 Highlands of Scotland. If the creature known as the Lucknest Monster. 13 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:24.799 Monster. 14 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.959 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 15 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:32.799 Blake Smith and together with my co hosts doctor Karen 16 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:36.519 Stolesnow and Ben Radford, we talk about monsters, science and 17 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:40.079 the vast landscape of mystery where such stories grow. Today, 18 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:41.879 we're happy to have a well known figure in the 19 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:45.760 world of science and cryptozoology, doctor Darren Naish. This is 20 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:48.680 the two part look at the intersection of cryptozoology and science, 21 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:50.959 and in our next episode we'll be talking with some 22 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.480 other voices on this topic. Benjamin Radford wasn't able to 23 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:56.239 be a part of this interview, but he plans me 24 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.599 back next episode. This is a media interview with surprising information, 25 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:03.120 and so we'll get started right after these messages. 26 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:06.120 This is an EVP I recorded last night. 27 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:08.120 How you doing? 28 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:09.439 I'm a ghost? 29 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:10.479 What's up? 30 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:11.240 You? 31 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:11.520 Guys? 32 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.400 Can't possibly ignore that type of Hey, who are you? 33 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:15.520 What are you doing? 34 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:20.280 EVPs are the result of paradolia and cross modulation. 35 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.360 Combined with the listeners hopes and expectations. What does this 36 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:27.560 have to do with science? I think you just got 37 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.280 skeptically pooned. Well, gotta see. 38 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:40.159 You now, skeptically pound dot com in the next. 39 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:46.039 Space. 40 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:50.879 The Galctic universe is comprised of literally dozens of stars 41 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:55.000 and hundreds of galaxies. Man has waited millions of late 42 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.919 years for the infinite raison the Cosmos to reach us, 43 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:02.719 yet it can all disappear in a parsek the distances. 44 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:04.400 You have no idea what you're talking about? Do you? 45 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:04.960 What? 46 00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:09.159 Galactic universe? Dozens of stars, parsec and light years as 47 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:10.159 measurements of time. 48 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:11.560 Uh, you know what? 49 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:14.159 You need to go to the star party? What the 50 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:18.280 Atlanta Skeptics star party? What's that? You really are clueless 51 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:22.680 here read this? Okay, let's see. Please join the Atlanta 52 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:27.400 Skeptics on Thusday, September second, twenty ten for stargazing food, drinks, 53 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:31.280 and amazing conversations billed at the Emery Math and Science 54 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:35.000 Center in Atlanta, Georgia. Astronomers Pamela Gay and Fraser Kane 55 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:38.520 will be hosting this amazing night. Ooh, I love those guys. 56 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.520 Oh yeah, keep going. Pamela and Fraser will be leading 57 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:44.120 guests and exploration of this guy is using the observatory 58 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.759 at Emery. A musician, podcaster and science lover George Roun 59 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.000 will also be providing entertainment. Who's that? Never mind? Keep reading. 60 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.919 This event is an honorable Jeff Medcalf, the blue collar scientist. 61 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:58.599 Jeff succumbed to liver cancer in two thousand and eight, 62 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:00.879 and the whole proceeds will go to the Leukemia and 63 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.840 Lymphoma Society in Jeff's name. Nice No, yes, yes, indeed, 64 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.360 keep reading. For those attending Dragon column, this is the 65 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:13.280 night before the craziness begins. Go to Atlanta Skeptics dot 66 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:18.720 com slash star party for full information. Remember two meteorites 67 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.759 don't make a meteor role. Don't add anything. Just read Sorry. 68 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.439 The Atlanta Skeptics Star Party with Pamela Day, Fraser King, 69 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.879 and George rob Thursday September second, at seveno thirty pm. 70 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:34.360 You gonna go oh yeah, just make sure you listen. 71 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:40.199 Mostly Cool Cool Atlanta Skeptics dot com slash Star Party. 72 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:47.399 Monster Darren Nash is a paleo zoologist, a freelance author, 73 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:50.199 and a science writer at the Tetrapod Zoology column on 74 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:53.920 Science Blocks. He's affiliated with the University of Portsmouth. He 75 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:56.439 obtained a degree in geology and then gained a PhD 76 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:59.879 in vertebrate paleontology at the same institution. He mostly works 77 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:05.040 on Cretaceous dinosaurs and pterosaurs, and quote also messes around 78 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:09.519 with swimming giraffes, fossil marine reptiles, British big cats and 79 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:14.000 stuff like that. Darren, welcome the Monster Talk. What's your 80 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.959 personal take on cryptozoology and how did you get associated 81 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:17.800 with that area of studying. 82 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.519 There's something I've always been interested in, and I've always 83 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:22.800 seen it as part of my kind of broader interest 84 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:27.759 in zoology as a whole. I'm still kind of unclear 85 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.319 on exactly how I feel about it, whether even using 86 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:36.480 the term cryptosology is a good thing because of the 87 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.000 associations that has with pseudoscience and such. But at the moment, 88 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:42.879 I would say my feeling is that a lot of 89 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:48.000 qualified biologists and zoologists who to do normal everyday biology 90 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:54.519 or zoology actually do do cryptozoology because by definition, cryptosology 91 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:56.560 is meant to be the study of species known from 92 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.120 anecdotical evidence. And if you look at the roster of 93 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:04.399 creatures alleged creatures that crypto's orders are interested in, they're 94 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:09.160 not all lake monsters and man like apes and so on. 95 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:12.240 That they do include fairly dull, small creatures that don't 96 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.399 you know, the normal scientists wouldn't have a problem with. 97 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.319 So I actually think I think there's a substantial overlap 98 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:24.959 between normal zoology and cryptos ordy. But yeah, the fact 99 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:29.279 that the term is so often associated only with monster 100 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.079 hunting and lake monsters and fast question and so on, 101 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:35.480 I think I think that is a problem. So yeah, 102 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:40.079 I kind of I find it annoying. There's many subjects 103 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:41.879 where I sort of sit on the fence and I 104 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:44.319 can't beside, you know, what I think is the best 105 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:49.399 perspective and a non particular issue. I still haven't made 106 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:52.040 them my mind. I don't mind you know, saying that 107 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:54.839 I do cryptozoological re surgery, then saying sometimes that I 108 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.240 am a cryptos ugist, but that you know, with the 109 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:02.519 caveat that you can be a proper scientist if I 110 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:04.959 may use that term and do cryptos already, and you 111 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:08.079 can be a cryptos audist and actually do proper peer 112 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.240 reviewed science. That's the term cripers ordist and cryptom and 113 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:16.399 cryptus algy, Yeah, they are. They are kind of problematic terms. 114 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.120 And Darren, do you think that there is a distinction 115 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:25.319 between cryptozoology and it's no biologyth no biology? 116 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.360 Well, that's just I think. I think that's quite a 117 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:33.680 useful term. But it's kind of kind of replacing crypto's orgy, 118 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.279 and it doesn't really seem to mean anything particularly different 119 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:41.399 so far as I understand. It just means investigating the 120 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:45.920 creatures that are purported to exist, so so again anecdotal creatures, 121 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:49.199 so you know, feel free to tell the otherwise I'm 122 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:51.639 maybe missing something here, but I can't see that it's 123 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:54.279 really any different from conventional cryptos orgy. 124 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:55.959 Do you think that's the case, Well, that's. 125 00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:00.279 A good question. I've noticed several people with PhD's referring 126 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.120 to ethnobiology, and it seems to parallel the way I've 127 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.959 always thought of cryptozoology, and I wondered if maybe it 128 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.639 was a more reputable term, maretical term. 129 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.800 Yeah, there is, you know, you can you can see 130 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.680 in some quarses there's a move to kind of make 131 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.319 a kind of more scientific terminology, like another example of 132 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:23.439 the term cryptid. Everyone closes around nowadays, and it's almost 133 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:27.680 it's almost kind of become okay to okay, we might 134 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.480 not the people that are interested in cryptos orgy. They're 135 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.919 not necessarily saying that I believe in, you know, naming 136 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:38.039 your favorite mystery animal, because you don't want to put 137 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.960 your neck on the on the block and say I 138 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:44.559 am advocating the existance of the locks, monsters, ascut or whatever. 139 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.480 But it seems to be okay to talk of cryptid. 140 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:50.480 And the concept of the cryptid is kind of like 141 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:54.120 a crystallized you know, you've kind of basically got the 142 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:57.120 basic features of a species that you're saying actually exists. 143 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:00.600 And should we really be playing the hard and far 144 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:04.200 should we be talking in that kind of black and 145 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:07.960 white language when we don't really know that we're pursuing 146 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.360 real quitas in the first space anyway. Yeah, I think 147 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.200 the term s no known and s no biology they 148 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.519 might be part of the same kind of problem. 149 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:17.720 People trying to make. 150 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:21.919 Sometimes make this out to be more solid than it 151 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:22.399 really is. 152 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:26.000 Is there, so go ahead, go ahead. 153 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.240 I was just going to ask for the question, is 154 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:32.559 there a more scientifically acceptable term than cryptid that's around? 155 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:34.960 No, there isn't that. 156 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.279 There's currently a debate going on right now. 157 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:41.360 There's a few responses floating around in the literatature. None 158 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.559 of this is published yet, but there are people who 159 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:46.000 are just arguing that we shouldn't use. 160 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.039 The term cryptid at all because it because it just 161 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:53.039 implies that, you know how, there's this long history. 162 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:55.480 In Crypto's orgy of people coming up with different classification 163 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.559 schemes for all of the sea monster sightings in the world, 164 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:01.120 all of the law monster size things, all of the 165 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:06.600 mystery primate sightings, and then grouping them into distinct little categories, 166 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:09.399 and you say, you've got, you know, species A and 167 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.480 species B or whatever. 168 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:16.799 Once you start kind of doing that, you're and you call. 169 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:19.279 These you know, if people normally call these little categories cryptids, 170 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:21.840 you're kind of crystallizing the idea that you've got like 171 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:27.320 a real tangibile entity there, and in most cases there's 172 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:29.720 probably you know, we're probably we haven't gone that far 173 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:31.879 down the road until, you know, we're probably not ready 174 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:37.000 to do that. So yeah, myself and Charles Practice and 175 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.440 who's the fisheries ecologe is very interesting in crypts already, 176 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:44.679 and Michael Woodley, who's a molecular ecologist who also has 177 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.799 an academic interest in cryptos ordy. We're having a debate 178 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:50.799 about these subjects at the moment and they will appear 179 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.919 in the literature. And yeah, we're going to be holding 180 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.639 a conference in a couple of years that's hoping to 181 00:10:56.679 --> 00:10:59.799 address this subject as well. So yeah, my thoughts on 182 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:00.759 it crystallized. 183 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:04.919 But once a new species has been found that's been 184 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.879 referred to as potentially a cryptid, would you still call 185 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.960 it a cryptid that has been proven to exist or 186 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:12.360 would you not use that term anymore? 187 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:14.039 Yeah, Now, the idea is. 188 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.360 That the cryptid is the name you use for it 189 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:22.080 when it's only known anecdotally, and then once supposing it 190 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.799 becomes verified to the procuring of a specimen or whatever, 191 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.440 then no longer is it encrypted. But a lot of 192 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.159 animals that I'm sure you've heard this before. This is 193 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:34.600 in all the books, and you know this is quite 194 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:37.000 well known. So anyone interested in cryptos already a lot 195 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:39.840 a lot of animals that are officially recognize today. People 196 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:41.919 always talk about your IDIA copy in the Canudo Dragon, 197 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:48.480 So they were cryptids historically. So I'm interested in the 198 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:52.440 idea that, yeah, some things today were cryptids in the past, 199 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:58.080 and if you're writing about the knowledge of those animals 200 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:00.720 prior to that official discovery, should you actually be referring 201 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:02.919 to the now as cryptids? So Wards, for example, was 202 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.600 the should you regard the akapi as a cryptid prior 203 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:09.320 to its nineteen oh one discovery? 204 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:11.919 And I kind of think you should. 205 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:16.879 I think, you know, if it's if you're investigating an 206 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.639 organism that's no name from anecdotal data, well, crypto's aordy 207 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.200 is the investigation of anecdotal data, and cryptids are the 208 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:27.440 names for those entities. So yeah, I think the terms, 209 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:31.200 I think the term cryptos audy encryptids probably should be 210 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:33.799 more widely used. But like I say, as I said 211 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:37.320 at the start, that there is this unfortunate implication that 212 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.960 that this, this, this link that Cryptus already has with 213 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:46.600 stuff that's not exactly mainstream science. 214 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:50.240 Our show comes from a very skeptical position, you know. 215 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:55.519 But and it sounds like you yourself are using a 216 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.200 lot of caution in your terminology. So do you consider 217 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.519 yourself to be a skeptic cryptids in general? 218 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:06.279 Yeah, well, well, I hope so I try and. 219 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:13.000 Be skeptical about kind of everything. I would say that 220 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.600 I certainly fall into the trap of favoring certain ideas 221 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.440 because I, you know, personally find them appealing. 222 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:21.480 But then we all I mean. 223 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:27.759 Yeah, in terms of my approach to mystery animals cryptos already, 224 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.080 my approach has always been that, you know, go where 225 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:37.000 the evidence takes you, and we certainly as scientists, should 226 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:41.840 be looking at the evidence empirically and you know, not 227 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:46.559 being guided by our prejudices or preconceptions or whatever. So 228 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:51.840 let's say I'm interested in investigating sea monster, cabrosaurus or 229 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:56.279 sasquatch or whatever. I'm you know, there's there's data to 230 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.600 look at. That data can include a witness, accounts and 231 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:04.519 trys or you know, so in our readings whatever, you 232 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.320 don't have to have any preconceived conclusion. You can you 233 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:10.240 can analyze that data and see where it takes you. 234 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:12.879 And I would certainly say that for some mystery animals, 235 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.200 my feeling at the moment is that there's the implication 236 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:19.080 from some of the data that real things are there. 237 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.399 But for many other cases, the evidence is one thing. 238 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:24.000 But you know, if you're interested in investigation of the evidence, 239 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.480 if you're interested in this, you know, approaching this from 240 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:29.639 a scientific point of view, that's fine. And even if 241 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:34.399 even if all of the eyewitness data is nonsense and 242 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.279 you know that there really isn't an animal at the 243 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:39.360 bottom of the reports, and there certainly our mystery animals 244 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:42.080 around the world where that is the case, I still think, 245 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:44.759 you know, scientists should be really interested in those cases 246 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:49.200 because we can learn so much about things like witness perception, 247 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.399 witness bias, things like why do people want to believe 248 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.440 these animals? Are they seeing something else and making a 249 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:01.320 perfectly rational misinterpretation. Those are really good questions and there 250 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.919 are huge interest to well, not only people interested in 251 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:10.320 cryptos audy, but psychologists and sociologists and stuff. So so 252 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:12.799 cryptus audio I think has a lot to tell us, 253 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:15.639 not only about diversity in the natural world, and so 254 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.159 on but also about our own approaches to the natural world, 255 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:21.320 how we study it, and yeah, a lot of stuff. 256 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:21.559 I think. 257 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:24.000 One of the questions I think about it quite a 258 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:29.240 bit is cryptozoology in the hands of trained scientists versus 259 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.799 cryptozoology in the hands of the amateur Is their value? 260 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.480 Is their value in the amateur cryptozoologists not just the 261 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.279 armchair but the people who you know, they have a 262 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:41.279 day job of whatever, and then they but when they 263 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.759 get a chance they go down the Amazon, are they Yeah, 264 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:45.120 they got a thieland Er to bed. 265 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.600 Well, yeah, And to be honest, that is the majority 266 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:50.639 of people who call themselves cryptos autists. 267 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.080 That that is, you know, their approach. And I've always 268 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:54.440 said that. 269 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.720 I mean, obviously I can want to found Hiragan. You know, 270 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:03.519 I've become technically qualified and you know, have a lot 271 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.440 of proper perspective and in terms of in terms of 272 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:08.720 being able to employ critical thinking and this kind of stuff. 273 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:11.279 And you know, if I'm interested in evaluating reports, I 274 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:13.000 won't write a popular book on it. I just think 275 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.799 about putting it into the periviewed literature. I think that 276 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:21.799 even if we encourage scientists and more scientists to look 277 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.960 at cryptos orgy kind of scientifically, that does not in 278 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:28.919 any way tominish the role that the amateurs can can play. 279 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:33.440 And I mean, for a start, all of the evidence 280 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:38.919 that the data that's now been analyzed by by scientists, 281 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:43.600 qualified scientists, has almost all of it been collected by 282 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:49.360 people who would regard themselves as kind of well, they 283 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:51.639 might think of themselves as scientists. Have had this discussion 284 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:56.000 with Lauren Coleman actually that they're not you know, they're 285 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:58.000 not pretending to be above their station. They know that 286 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:02.639 the they're kind of like amateur scientists, if you like, 287 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.000 they don't have a university position or whatever. I do 288 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.119 think that sometimes we do have to kind of rain 289 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:19.599 them in or encourage kind of more critical appraisal of 290 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:23.279 the way they come to conclusions and also to be 291 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:28.720 more cautious in terms of what they're prepared to conclude, 292 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.920 because I mean, I always say that one of the 293 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:33.960 biggest problems with cryptos orgy is not necessarily with the 294 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:37.200 kind of raw data, the eyewitness data that we that 295 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:40.400 we have, but it's the conclusions that people build on 296 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:44.400 the data. There's there's there's a thousand you know, hypotheses 297 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:46.960 and idea about that in the kryptodological literature about all 298 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:52.799 manner of creatures surviving from prehistory or coming from different dimensions. 299 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.319 Or you know the name it. 300 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:59.240 Every conceivable idea has been out there, and I think 301 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.519 I think that is the problem. It's like what you're 302 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.680 if you if if you're an interested amateur, you're out there, 303 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.559 you know, finding historical records of Bigfoot, or collecting eyewitness 304 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.319 reports from people first hand, or even going out there 305 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.160 in the field and you know, investigating. 306 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.759 The cases that that's brilliant, that's really worthy work. 307 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:21.240 You know, we need we need more of that. But 308 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.480 it's the conclusions that the people sometimes reach that I 309 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:30.039 think don't really do us any favors. Yeah, the crypts 310 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.160 algy definitely does stuff from that, it also suffers from 311 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:34.680 the kind of people that it attracts, by which I 312 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.359 mean there's this kind of I'm really I'm really bothered 313 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.920 by the by the creationists who seem to have quite 314 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.839 a large spoken cryptos orgy these days, and I don't 315 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.000 really understand what can be done about it. Some people 316 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:49.640 say that, you know, we shouldn't be prepared to do 317 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.440 anything about it, but that you know, as a as 318 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.880 a scientist, with biological, toological and you know, palaeontological interests 319 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.319 and really makes me very unacted. 320 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.039 Well, you're people who have this interest don't like to 321 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.759 see their their hobby or or their passion repurposed for 322 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:13.200 decidedly unscientific reasons, right, So yeah, that's it's it's troubling 323 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.079 to me too. It's a frequent theme here, and it's 324 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.759 something that a lot of people, even you know, we're 325 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:20.839 involved in the skeptics community, but a lot of people 326 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:26.880 in skepticism don't understand how deeply creationists, Young Earth creationists 327 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:31.279 especially are entrenched into cryptozoology, especially anything to do with 328 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:36.759 extant dinosaurs or you know, marine reptiles, that sort of thing. 329 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.759 Yeah, and Darren, have you had any personal encounters with 330 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:42.440 these people with these creations? 331 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:46.920 Really, I'm sorry to say. I was having a discussion 332 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.519 just just sorry, discussion is the wrong term. I was 333 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:52.000 having an exchange just a couple of days ago with 334 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.240 I think it's called James Witkom, a guy who who's 335 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.640 written a book on the rope put this alleged parasol 336 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:07.480 like from New Guinea and like similar minded people, he's 337 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:12.359 you know, fairly convinced that the eyewitness evidence indicates firstly 338 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.599 that you've got this animal and it looks, you know, 339 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:18.240 in this case, it's got a twenty foot wing span, 340 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:21.400 it's bioluminescent's got a long tail, breaths fire or something. 341 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:25.200 So the first of all, they think there's that real animal. Secondly, 342 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.920 they think that it can be identified as very specifically 343 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.599 in this case, as a surviving terrosare. And thirdly it's 344 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:37.480 kind of all linked with their particular view of history. 345 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:39.960 I don't want to say evolutionary history, because obviously they 346 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.240 reject the reality. 347 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.720 Devolution and all. 348 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.240 Like, you know, it's like where do you start because 349 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.880 the okay, something like the suggestion terroritors might be alive 350 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.640 from the palaeontological record is a non start, but it 351 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:00.920 can be very confident that that's really not the case 352 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:02.920 or there's certainly there's no evidence that might support it. 353 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.799 But in cryptos algy, the more important thing is is 354 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.119 the eyewitness evidence that should be your kind of you know, 355 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:14.160 your core data. And in all these cases where people 356 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:18.839 have built these huge hazards of cards, the eyewinness data 357 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:24.839 is really poor. Certainly, you know, okay, maybe there's a 358 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.240 suggestion that there might be some unusual creature at the 359 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:32.039 bottom of this. That's probably the case with many cryptological entities. 360 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:35.200 But you're really going too far in saying that it's 361 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:39.279 the particular creature that they that they want it to be. 362 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.240 These these stories from them from New Guinea about living 363 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:47.759 terodactyls and stuff are pretty poor. They come from extremely 364 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.599 unreliable sources. They're often extremely vague, you know, people seeing 365 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.839 lights at night and saying that it's a bioluminescent terodactyl. 366 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.400 I mean, I don't need to you know, I'm preaching 367 00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.200 to the choir here, but. 368 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:04.920 Maybe you know I haven't actually talked to many people 369 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:08.039 on that side of the argument. I'd like to ask 370 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:12.839 them how effective those tools are for conversion, you know 371 00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:16.839 what I mean. I mean, I've seen plenty of cryptos 372 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.559 while it's interested in Bigfoot, but I've never been offered 373 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:21.119 a Bigfoot gospel tract. 374 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:26.880 You know, just oh well, they're probably do as obviously. 375 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.559 I live in the UK, so I'm not affected by 376 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.759 creationism and creationists as much as as you probably are. 377 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.960 I find it interesting that being interested in animals and 378 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:44.160 working on prehistoric animals in particular, I think that that 379 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.240 well Pain told us in particular, I really seem to 380 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:49.119 be kind of on the front line in terms of creationists. 381 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:52.160 I've been a conferences and exhibitions and stuff where you 382 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:54.200 actually have creationists to come up and engage you in 383 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.200 discussion because they see the skeleton of the dinosa or 384 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.839 the terrorists or whatever, and that's kind of like their hook, 385 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:05.480 but sort of the kind of first thing to like 386 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.160 attack you with, because you know, it's a the obvious thing. 387 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:12.640 There's no there's no pretending that. Let's say you see 388 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:15.319 the skeleton of a dinosaur in many cases be half 389 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:17.720 that might be reconstructed, you know, and I'm sure you 390 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.200 understand how the reconstruction is done entirely kind of in 391 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.079 a sensible logical way, you know, you look at related 392 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.160 animals or whatever. But that's their kind of like first 393 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.640 point of attack. Come in, say, oh, you've you've fabricated. 394 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:30.880 Evidence or whatever. 395 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:34.240 But then within like five minutes of the conversation they're 396 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:38.440 talking to you about things like they somehow I've experienced 397 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:40.960 several times they start talking about things like, you know, 398 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.599 the age of the earth and the function of the 399 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:45.799 brain and humans and basically things to do with you know, 400 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:48.759 the plate the specific place of man in the universe, 401 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:53.400