WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.960 Hello, and welcome to my podcast. This is an audio 2 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:06.759 version of my videos available to make listening to my 3 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:10.039 stuff in the background easier than YouTube makes it. But 4 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.640 since my videos are primarily made for YouTube, there may 5 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.960 be occasional references to visual materials. If you'd like this 6 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:19.559 podcast ad free, you can join us on Patreon app, 7 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:21.600 Patreon dot com, slash Vice Rhino. 8 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:22.879 Please enjoy. 9 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:28.600 Hello and welcome to my channel Vice Rhino. Here today, 10 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:32.119 I'm looking at one of Mike Winger's twenty questions live streams. 11 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:34.719 I'm only focusing on the first question for this one, 12 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:37.079 as the majority of the questions he addresses are either 13 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.880 rather dull or have already been responded to by other creators. 14 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:43.079 Maybe there's a couple in there that I'll get into 15 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:45.960 in later videos, but I don't plan on turning this 16 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.840 into a series, as I did with his response to 17 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:51.520 an atheist article. So the question we're addressing today is 18 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:56.240 does scripture promote evil things? To which the answer is 19 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:59.079 a very obvious yes. All you have to do is 20 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.520 look at the various passage on slavery. There are other 21 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:04.400 issues where the answer is slightly more nuanced and might 22 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:06.879 depend on what you mean by promote, but given that 23 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:08.680 there are rules about who you're allowed to keep as 24 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:11.200 a permanent chattel slave in the Old Testament, as well 25 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:13.599 as commands for slaves to obey their masters, even the 26 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:16.519 cruel ones in the New Testament, and commands for Christian 27 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:19.200 slave owners to just not threaten their slaves rather than 28 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.200 set them free, than any reasonable understanding of what the 29 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:27.079 word promote means will apply. The Bible promotes slavery, but 30 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:29.079 I'm sure we'll get into that in more detail later, 31 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:31.599 so let's take a look before we get into it, though, 32 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:33.840 just a quick content warning. This one gets into the 33 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:37.000 topic of rape, including some biblical instances of child rape. 34 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:39.079 I don't go into graphic detail at any point, but 35 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:41.239 I understand that that might still be a very difficult 36 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:43.799 and painful topic for some people. So if that's you, 37 00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:46.280 feel free to skip this one. 38 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:51.799 Now. 39 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:53.719 I'm going to get to the first question today before 40 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:55.159 I tell you more about any of that stuff, and 41 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.879 that is this one quite a challenging one. I've been 42 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.280 challenged the anonymous question it says I've been challenged with 43 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:06.879 the accusation that the Bible promotes killing, rape, and slavery, 44 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.719 quoting numbers thirty one fifteen through eighteen. 45 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.120 So yeah, this is a verse where we need to 46 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:16.439 get into exactly what is meant by promote if you're 47 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:19.439 not familiar. Numbers thirty one fifteen through eighteen is Moses 48 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.319 explaining that allowing women to live after conquering a city 49 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.280 will result in them corrupting the people of Israel, causing 50 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:28.240 them to act treacherously against the Lord, and thus forcing 51 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:30.039 God to kill a bunch of them with a plague. 52 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:33.599 So to avoid that, kill every man, woman, and male child, 53 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:38.280 but keep the female children alive for yourselves. In context, 54 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:42.080 it arguably gets worse. They've already conquered the Midianites and 55 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:44.400 taken a bunch of women captive. So not only was 56 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.479 Moses commanding child rape, he was also commanding the execution 57 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.240 of civilian prisoners of war as a way of exterminating 58 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:54.560 their culture, also known as genocide. So does this count 59 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:58.120 as the Bible promoting killing, rape, and slavery. I could 60 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:01.240 see how someone could argue that it does to promote 61 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.280 something is to actively encourage that thing. And this is 62 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:07.319 not a command for modern readers of the Bible to follow, 63 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.919 but just a story about something that did happen sure, 64 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:13.840 Presumably Moses, the guy who could speak directly to God 65 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:16.360 and was God's representative on Earth at the time, was 66 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:19.960 commanding genocide and rape as a proxy for God, meaning 67 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.680 that it was God commanding genocide and rape. But it's 68 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:25.319 still not a command for later readers, it's a retelling 69 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:28.800 of events. Of course, this is a matter of interpretation somewhat. 70 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.680 The Bible is a slippery book that even though most 71 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:34.000 modern Christians will talk about this like I just have 72 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.439 pointing out that it's a story of something that did happen, 73 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.199 not a command from God to continue doing it. There 74 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:42.000 still have been Christians throughout the years who have seen 75 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.520 these examples of holy genocide commanded by God and decided 76 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.360 that they were meant as an example of how to 77 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:51.159 act in war, leading to holy war's galore. But whether 78 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:53.759 you see it as actively promoting bad things or just 79 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:55.960 telling a story of a time when bad things happen, 80 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:58.319 it is a true statement that the telling of these 81 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:01.840 bad things is attempting to them in a positive light, 82 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:04.719 meaning that whoever wrote this section of the Bible did 83 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:07.680 not see a problem with completely wiping out another culture 84 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:11.599 or forcing little girls into sex slavery, which then leads 85 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:14.120 us to wondering, why would we want the God that 86 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.480 Mike believes wrote that book to be the source of morality, 87 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:21.079 even if this wasn't technically an instance of promoting those behaviors. 88 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:23.240 So let me say there's two things going on here. 89 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.319 We're going to read the passage in numbers, but there's 90 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:27.160 two things going on here, at least in my opinion, 91 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:32.639 and the two things are one understanding things in context. 92 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:35.399 Which in this case makes it worse, as it takes 93 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.560 us from the already heinous killing in sex slavery to 94 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:40.000 outright genocide. 95 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:43.360 That is, actually knowing what the Bible says, because for 96 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:47.879 someone to say that the Bible supports killing, rape, and 97 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:53.759 slavery is manifestly wrong. 98 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.000 Leviticus twenty five forty four through forty six. As for 99 00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:59.240 your male and female slaves whom you may have, you 100 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.720 may buy male female slaves from among the nations that 101 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:03.879 are around you. You may also buy from among the 102 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:06.319 strangers who sojourn with you, and their clans that are 103 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:08.560 with you, who have been born into your land, And 104 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.160 they may be your property. You may bequeath them to 105 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.040 your sons after you, to inherit as possessions forever you 106 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.360 may make slaves of them, But over your brothers, the 107 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:20.439 people of Israel, you shall not rule one over another ruthlessly. 108 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:24.480 Is it manifestly wrong to say that that passage supports slavery. 109 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:27.240 Rape at least gets treated as a crime, albeit is 110 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:29.800 a property crime against the man who owns the rape victim, 111 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:31.959 with some cases having the punishment for rape being for 112 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:34.480 the rapist to marry the victim and in others for 113 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:36.800 the rapist to be executed, and should the rape have 114 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:39.839 happened in a town, the rape victim also gets executed 115 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:42.600 along with their rapist. It's like the authors of the 116 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:44.879 Bible knew that rape was wrong, but they didn't know 117 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.959 why it's wrong for killing. The Bible lays out the 118 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.959 death penalty for all sorts of scenarios, everything from gathering 119 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.680 sticks on the wrong day of the week to being 120 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.879 a disobedient teenager, to being gay and more. Of course, 121 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.959 Mike would likely defend that by pointing out that those 122 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.360 are executions for breaking the law, not extra judicial killing, 123 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:04.720 which kind of distracts from the fact that the law 124 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.680 calling for the death penalties for these ridiculous reasons is 125 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:10.800 immoral in and of itself. But also finay Has in 126 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:14.000 numbers twenty five took it upon himself to murder a 127 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.199 couple for committing the crime of being a mixed race couple. 128 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:19.639 The result being that God was pleased with finay Has 129 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.399 and lifted the plague that had been afflicting Israel. Yes, 130 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.160 strictly speaking, they wouldn't have been mixed race in the 131 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.480 way we understand race today, but they were from different tribes, 132 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:31.519 and that story has definitely been used to oppose allowing 133 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.720 mixed race couples as recently as the nineteen sixties, and 134 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:38.240 by the nineteen sixties, I mean literally still to this day. 135 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:40.480 There's even a Twitter account that has the handle at 136 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.279 numbers twenty five eight, and the user named Fina has 137 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:47.279 tweeting out things like America for whites. So yeah, I 138 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:49.480 guess add racism to the list of bad things that 139 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:51.000 are promoted by the Bible. 140 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.120 So that you can do you could show the passages 141 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:55.160 in context, talk about them, and we'll work through some 142 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:55.480 of that. 143 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:57.800 Okay, But how do you deal with the fact that 144 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:01.879 the context makes it worse? Honestly, specific to slavery, that's 145 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.000 where I've seen some of the most egregious cases of 146 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:06.879 people taking verses out of context, and the people doing 147 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.240 that are the apologists. Like that time when Alan Parr 148 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:12.040 put a graphic cup in his video that says that 149 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.600 Exodus twenty one five through six says, but if the 150 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.519 servant declares, I love my master dot dot dot, and 151 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:19.759 I do not want to go free dot dot dot, 152 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.399 then he will be his servant for life, when in 153 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.199 reality it says, but if the servant declares, I love 154 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:27.879 my master and my wife and children and do not 155 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:30.120 want to go free, then his master must take him 156 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.079 before the judges. He shall take him to the door 157 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:34.519 or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an all. 158 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:37.959 Then he will be his servant for life. So Alan 159 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:39.759 took out the parts of the verse that mentions the 160 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:41.959 slave's wife and children and the part where they are 161 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.879 physically disfigured to be marked as permanent slaves. And if 162 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.480 we read the surrounding context, the reason the wife and 163 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.839 children are brought up here is because it says in 164 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.399 verse four, if his master gives him a wife and 165 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:54.680 she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her 166 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:57.519 children shall belong to her master, and only the man 167 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:00.360 shall go free. So he took a passage that clearly 168 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.399 has a slave owner holding a temporary slaves family hostage 169 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:06.079 in order to press them into becoming permanent slaves, and 170 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:07.920 tried to turn it into a passage that says that 171 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.959 slavery is voluntary and temporary, with some slaves being treated 172 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:13.879 so well that they've choose to become permanent slaves. In 173 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.759 my experience, Christian apologists are far more likely to be 174 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.519 ignoring the larger context of a verse than the atheists. 175 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:23.959 The idea of killing. I mean, God forbids killing. You 176 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:26.040 shall not kill, you shall not murder in particular. 177 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.319 Right, Yeah, but the Bible also says if a man 178 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:30.160 lies with a male, as with a woman, both of 179 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:33.000 them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put 180 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:35.639 to death. Their blood is upon them. So you can't 181 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:38.240 say that it does not promote killing. Best you can 182 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:40.679 do is hype up the distinction between executing someone for 183 00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:42.799 insignificant crimes and murder. 184 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:45.360 And so the Bible doesn't support killing, Like someone's going 185 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:46.600 to go out and just start killing people and be 186 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.200 like the Bible supports me killing people like Obviously, this 187 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:54.600 is a crass, horrible, and immoral way to try to 188 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:56.039 represent scripture. 189 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:59.440 Is really crass an immoral to represent scripture as saying 190 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:02.559 the thing is that Scripture says, and interpreting it in 191 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:05.399 a way that Christians have interpreted it. You can say 192 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.480 that your interpretation is that it doesn't promote killing and 193 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:11.799 claim that your interpretation is the correct interpretation, but that 194 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.320 doesn't change the fact that plenty of people have been 195 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:18.240 murdered in Jesus' name, with the murderers invoking scripture as 196 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.360 their justification. Hell Jesus himself said, but as for these 197 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:24.360 enemies of mine who did not want me to reign 198 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:27.440 over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me 199 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.279 in Luke nineteen twenty seven. Now, sure that was in 200 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.440 a parable. He wasn't literally telling his disciples to go 201 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:36.200 out and kill people, but the parable was about how 202 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:38.799 God's subjects should act while waiting for the Kingdom of 203 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:41.360 God to appear. Super easy to interpret that as a 204 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.240 command to, you know, slaughter people that are seen as 205 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:45.080 enemies of God. 206 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.399 And then in slavery, I mean, if the rules in 207 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.919 the Bible that were regulating a practice that was world 208 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.879 has been worldwide for most of human history, slavery, if 209 00:09:56.919 --> 00:09:59.559 those rules have been put in place during state early America, 210 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:01.759 all this slavers would have been executed. 211 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:05.759 So your defensive slavery in the Bible is that everyone 212 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:09.120 was doing it and some people did it worse. Dude, 213 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.519 you believe that the commandments in Exodus were given to 214 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:14.159 Moses on Mount sign I write after the Hebrews had 215 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:17.320 been freed from slavery. What better time to pass on 216 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:20.840 a command to not enslave people? But no, the law 217 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:23.480 on Exodus is about the proper way to keep slaves, 218 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.080 which includes beating them to within an inch of their life, 219 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.840 coercing people into becoming permanent slaves by holding their families hostage. 220 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.639 And as temporary as the slavery was for men, no 221 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:36.000 such restriction was on women. They are permanent slaves. 222 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:36.679 You know. 223 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:39.720 I've often heard preachers talk about how special Jesus was 224 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:42.279 because his teachings were so radical for the culture that 225 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.399 he was in, which isn't entirely true, but let's just 226 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.039 go with that. The argument for why Jesus was so 227 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.480 special is because of how radically his teachings diverged from 228 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.960 cultural norms. But as soon as slavery comes up, suddenly 229 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:57.399 the all powerful creator of the universe has to give 230 00:10:57.399 --> 00:11:00.519 into peer pressure. Everybody's doing it. How do you expect 231 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:02.639 the all powerful, all knowing creator of everything to have 232 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.240 done any better than just the average culture at the time. 233 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:07.840 What a weak god you worship? 234 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:08.679 Did you hear me? 235 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:11.720 Yeah? I heard you describe how weak and pathetic your 236 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:12.159 God is. 237 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:17.279 Right, and slaves, if they ran away from somebody who 238 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:21.879 is a slave owner, they would the town they ran 239 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:23.840 to would be forced to provide them a place to 240 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.120 stay and required not to send them back to the 241 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:27.080 person they ran from. 242 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:29.600 Yep, that is one of the laws regarding slavery in 243 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:31.960 the Bible. Worst case scenario from my side of the 244 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:34.879 argument here is that this means there are contradictions in 245 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:37.240 the Bible. In one book, it not only says that 246 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:41.000 slavery is okay, it gives detailed instructions on exactly how 247 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:44.159 to perpetuate the institution of slavery, and in another it 248 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.519 offers protection for escaped slaves. But as it turns out, 249 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.200 there are a number of potential interpretations of this verse. 250 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.000 One is that, since it comes immediately after rules about 251 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:55.799 how military camp is to be organized, the escape slaves 252 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.200 are presumably from the enemy army, and it just makes 253 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.519 good tactical sense to take them in and hope that 254 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:02.679 the other slaves realize that the Hebrews will take them 255 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.159 in and provide for them if they escape, thus encouraging 256 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:08.200 their enemy slaves to escape, making the enemy army weaker 257 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.039 as a result. Another interpretation hinges on the fact that 258 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.080 the escape slave is given a choice of all the 259 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:15.399 Hebrew towns to live in. This makes it clear that 260 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:17.519 it's an escape slave from one of the other nations 261 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.399 in the area, not from somewhere else in Israel, and 262 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.759 the command is meant to honor God. If the slave 263 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.840 is escaping into Israel, then clearly that's because they want 264 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:27.799 to worship the Hebrew God, and it would be a 265 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:30.399 dishonor to God to turn that person away. So rather 266 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:33.159 than being a case of the Bible being against slavery, 267 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.159 it's merely just a way that they're supposed to treat 268 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.879 escape slaves from other nations so that they can look 269 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:40.080 better by comparison. 270 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:42.639 You see, It was just it's very different, like these 271 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:44.320 are the actual policies in place. 272 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:48.639 Good point, these are the policies in place. I don't 273 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.159 know if you realize this, but people don't always behave 274 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.559 in strict accordance with their policies. So I find it 275 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.240 interesting that you are comparing the policies of the ancient 276 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:00.440 Hebrews to the behavior of those who engage the American 277 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.399 slave trade. Now, obviously it's much harder to find accounts 278 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.039 of actual behavior in the ancient Near East than of 279 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:09.200 Americans just a couple centuries ago, so the available data 280 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:11.679 skews more towards policy for the ancient Near East and 281 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.720 behavior for American slavery. But we do have access to 282 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:17.480 the actual laws regarding slavery in the United States, and 283 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.480 quite a number of them seem to have taken their 284 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:23.000 lead from the Bible. In most states, killing a slave 285 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:24.919 was to be treated as the same crime as killing 286 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:27.320 a free white person, with some states having exceptions for 287 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:29.519 accidentally killing a slave while engage in what they call 288 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:34.559 moderate correction. Now, notably, this moderate correction exception applied to 289 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.840 wives and children as well, so slaves essentially had the 290 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:41.279 same legal protection against bodily harm as free white women 291 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:45.000 and children. In some states, such as Louisiana, cruel masters 292 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:47.480 could be forced by a judge to sell their slaves. 293 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.120 So when we actually look at the policies of slavery 294 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:51.960 in the United States. We find that it's not that 295 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.759 much different from the policies of the ancient Hebrews. In 296 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.279 some ways, it's actually better. There was no provision in 297 00:13:57.320 --> 00:13:59.159 the Bible that a slave could be removed from a 298 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:02.000 master who is deemed be too cruel. Of course, we 299 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.000 know from history that the actual application of these policies 300 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:08.600 was imperfect to say the least. Why are we assuming 301 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:11.279 that the ancient Hebrews strictly adhered to their legal code 302 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.440 when more recent historical examples suggest that the legal code 303 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:16.200 was merely a way of assuaging the guilt of the 304 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.000 people who might be more sympathetic to the plight of 305 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.360 the slaves. Yes, we own slaves, but don't worry, they've 306 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.360 got legal protections, so surely it's not all that bad, 307 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.519 you know, exactly like Mike is doing here. 308 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:30.720 Of course, in the New Testament, we're called to an 309 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:31.960 even higher calling. 310 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:35.360 And that calling is to not threaten the slaves that 311 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:37.480 you're still allowed to own. I'm not sure how that's 312 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.600 a higher calling. It seems like God could have had 313 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:42.440 the foresight to just outlast slavery explicitly at some point, 314 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.840 But there is no Bible verse that just flat out 315 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:47.879 says that owning other human beings as property is wrong, 316 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:48.759 so don't do it. 317 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:50.919 So what you can see is that this is just 318 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.320 like absolutely manifestly not true. 319 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:57.039 Now what I see is you ignoring the context both 320 00:14:57.080 --> 00:14:59.600 in the Bible and in the American legal codes. You 321 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.039 know that thing that you're accusing anyone who would say 322 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:04.000 that the Bible supports slavery of doing. 323 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:06.799 Like, it's just not true that the Bible supports killing, 324 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:09.840 rape and slavery, Like, that's a lie. That's a lie 325 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:10.720 somebody's believing. 326 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.960 And that's the pot calling the kettle black, which come 327 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:15.919 to think of it as a weird saying this day 328 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.120 and age with a stainless steel pots and it's white 329 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:21.840 plastic kettles, should probably update that one. It's the toaster 330 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:26.159 calling the kettle white. It's a dishwasher calling the fridge silver. 331 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.960 It's the sink calling the toilet porcelain. I don't know, 332 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.159 let's workshop it comment down below what you think we 333 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:33.279 should replace the saying with. 334 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:35.679 And then the heart issue comes in, and this is 335 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.360 this is the part that's the harder one to deal with, 336 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.919 and that is understanding the fear of the Lord. 337 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.679 Yeah, if there really was a God that existed who 338 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.519 approved of slavery, I would be scared of that God. 339 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.320 Why do Christians think that living in fear of their 340 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:49.799 God is a good thing. 341 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.279 That this is the beginning of wisdom if we approach 342 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.519 God and this Okay, I'm going to tell you guys, 343 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.399 just me talking here, flow of thought, and I don't 344 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:00.000 know how to fix somebody on this issue. 345 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.080 You know, it's not your job to fix people, right 346 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.399 like when you lie about what's in the Bible regarding slavery. 347 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.559 I don't see it as my job to get you 348 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:10.919 to see the error of your ways. I merely point 349 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.519 out the lie so that the people who see my 350 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.000 videos are less likely to just trust you at your 351 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:17.679 word in the future. I can't make you stop lying, 352 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:19.320 but I sure as hell can call it out when 353 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:19.720 I see it. 354 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:21.519 All I know how to do is point it out. 355 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:24.720 Yeah, like that, except you're not doing a very good 356 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.919 job of it so far. I've referenced at least nine 357 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:30.000 passages in the Bible. More if you lump all of 358 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.440 the slaves obey your master's passages from the New Testament 359 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:35.320 in together, and when you brought up American slavery. I 360 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.080 reference the actual legal codes of various states in order 361 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:39.879 to point out the difference between the law and the 362 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:42.840 behavior of a culture, to explain why it's disingenuous to 363 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:44.840 compare the legal code of one culture to the actual 364 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.600 behavior of another culture in order to make one culture 365 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:51.879 look better by that comparison. And you have referenced one 366 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.679 Bible verse that says escape slaves are to be protected, 367 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:58.840 and said, n uhh, a bunch. So which of us 368 00:16:58.840 --> 00:16:59.960 has provided more content? 369 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.279 I wonder, right? All I know in the conversation is 370 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:06.200 to change the subject from understanding a passage in context. 371 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.160 If that's not if that's not important to them, if 372 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.440 that doesn't matter to them, it's even offensive to some people. 373 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.200 Seems like you might be one of the people who 374 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.279 finds it offensive, given how blatantly you're avoiding the actual 375 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.200 context of the claims. Also, I haven't watched this through 376 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.400 in its entirety yet, but I'll bet that when we 377 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:22.960 actually get to the verse in questions numbers thirty one, 378 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.519 fifteen through eighteen, he won't bring up things like the 379 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:28.920 war code of Deuteronomy twenty that explicitly allows the Israelites 380 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.799 to conquer a city and use its citizens as forced labor, 381 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.680 or the slave laws of Livitus twenty five that allow 382 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:37.720 you to buy permanent chattel slaves from surrounding nations and 383 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.720 foreigners living among you, and will instead focus on the 384 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.160 fact that those verses are found in a narrative portion 385 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:45.759 of the text, a part explaining what did happen and 386 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.359 not proclaiming what should happen. In other words, he will 387 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.839 only use as much context as is convenient for his argument. 388 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.839 Well, I've I've discussed these things online with people who 389 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:58.000 when I go, well, when you look at it in context, 390 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.960 and then they start mocking and ridiculing me for looking 391 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.839 at something in context. And I want you to think 392 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:09.240 about the depth of self confusion that is there when 393 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.039 you actually don't want to understand the Bible in context 394 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:14.599 because you might not hate it so much. Now you're 395 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:17.440 missing the point there. When people do that, it's because 396 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.279 that is often a dismissive excuse given by a Christian 397 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:23.279 who is confronted with a challenging verse. To them, the 398 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.319 context doesn't actually matter to the argument. It's more about 399 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.400 the idea that there is hypothetically a context that could 400 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:31.559 make the verse sound less and moral than it actually is, 401 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:35.079