WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:12.240 It am. We we are. 2 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:21.079 Ya having me. 3 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.879 We are joined by Adam Paul Susanet, who I want 4 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:29.600 you all to know, cares a lot. All right, listen, y'all. 5 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:31.359 Most folks are like, what's time? I need to be there, 6 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:34.039 that's it. Adam was like, can I show photos? Can 7 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:36.840 I show videos? I need them to get the information. 8 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:40.240 And I really appreciate that. And Adam, I have all 9 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:43.359 the photos. So I have all the photos. I have 10 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:45.719 the video, I have the PDF, so I have whatever 11 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:50.840 you want me to have for this conversation about for 12 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:58.759 this conversation that is segregation by design. Segregation by design, 13 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:04.239 please topic. Yeah, okay, so I found you on the interwebs. 14 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:08.840 Ever so often the algorithm does something useful, and the 15 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:13.760 algorithm decided to send you my way. And as a 16 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:17.040 black person in this country, you know, I'm all. I 17 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:21.400 can't say I'm ever shocked, but it never ceases to 18 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.959 disgust me the myriad ways that have been used to 19 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:32.040 continue the the the operation of colonialism, of separation, of segregation, 20 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:35.680 et cetera. But I hadn't I didn't know about highways. 21 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:43.920 Yeah, yeah, well it's exactly that. The highways video, Well, 22 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:47.239 the video is a good introduction to sort of segregation 23 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:51.480 by design my project. So we can show that. Let's 24 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.719 say that in a second. Okay, but yeah, the highways, 25 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.480 it's it's interesting because they really do represent as they 26 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:03.640 were designed. They represent sort of a continuation of this 27 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:10.520 project of writing white supremacy into law. It's you can see, 28 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:13.439 you can see it sort of as a form of 29 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:19.919 shifting shifting tactics, like after federal desegregation in the fifties, 30 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.879 you know, with brown Brown b Board of Education, and 31 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.879 then with the subsequent Civil Rights Act, a lot of 32 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:31.479 the official barriers to or rather a lot of the 33 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:40.319 official legal mechanisms that upheld segregation were invalidated federally. So 34 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:44.039 then what comes along is the highways, which are able 35 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:49.439 to then draw that color line that was technically invalidated, 36 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:52.240 but they're able to draw that color line in physical 37 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.960 space in a much bigger way than it was before, 38 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:58.599 and in places where it wasn't already, like the train 39 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:04.080 tracks is a famous example. Right, So maybe let's show 40 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:06.280 the video if that's okay, But unless you have a 41 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:08.280 follow up question, it is it is seven minutes. I 42 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:11.520 don't know how we got time. Yeah, let's do it. 43 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:15.120 I have time. It's it's a good introduction to to 44 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.879 segregation by design. The project, Well, there's this one. This 45 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:21.000 one's only a second, this one's only a few moments long. 46 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:25.719 Okay, so this video is showing us what. 47 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:33.240 Well, yes, so exactly, so, this is showing a highway 48 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:37.080 being constructed through Detroit. And what this is showing is 49 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:40.759 one of the sort of original sins of highway construction. 50 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:44.479 So normally what I like to do is when I 51 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:47.719 present this project, basically I talk about some of the 52 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:51.919 problems posed by the problems we face with freeways today, 53 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:54.319 sort of the history of how we got here, and 54 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.719 some solutions for what we can do about it. And 55 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:01.680 this is both one of the problems in the history. 56 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:04.000 One of the problems is that they were built through 57 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:08.360 basically black and brown neighborhood specifically, so they displaced all 58 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.800 these people. You can see all these houses being destroyed, 59 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:15.360 and then for the neighborhood, for the neighborhoods that remain 60 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:19.279 divided by these highways. Now there's significant pollution, both in 61 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.120 terms of exhaust from the from the from the cars 62 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:27.199 and the entire particular matter brake matter, and then noise pollution. 63 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:29.639 And that's another one of those images I sent. But 64 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.439 we don't have to get to bogged down by the 65 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:33.959 images because they're not I didn't send them in any 66 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:35.319 particular order, which is my bad. 67 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.639 So I don't have the video you're talking about. I 68 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:42.040 thought this was the video, But where can I get it? 69 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:42.920 Is it in the emails? 70 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:52.560 Image just sent it? I think at it's I have 71 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:54.240 the PDAs I sent it. 72 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:56.800 And I have the I have where you said this 73 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:00.040 animation this image would be good, and images from this 74 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:01.879 page would be good to show. I have all of those. 75 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:07.000 This is the one. Oh wait, no, that's playing on 76 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:11.839 my here? I can, I can? 77 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:13.959 I can bring it up. 78 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:20.759 Basically, whoops that I just sent you here? It is. 79 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:33.600 Okay? Oh, but this is a link, not the actual video. 80 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:37.000 Can I show the link? 81 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:39.600 How do I do it? Correct? It's a YouTube link. 82 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:45.160 I don't know how to do that on here. I 83 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:47.319 can like bring a video onto screen, but I don't 84 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.399 know how to show like a YouTube video. 85 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:53.079 You know, it's not a big deal. We can just 86 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:56.079 we can just talk. It's it's basically, it's it's an example. 87 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.600 The video is an example of of where these highways 88 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:01.079 we're used to displace and destroy a black community in 89 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:05.959 Los Angeles, specifically Sugar Hill. So for for a lot 90 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:09.680 of these examples, and and the the pdf I sent 91 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:12.160 that one has a bunch of pictures and we can 92 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:14.279 bring that up at some point. But for a lot 93 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:16.399 of the examples I mentioned, if folks want to check 94 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:20.120 out my website Segregation Bydesign dot com, it basically breaks 95 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:23.639 it down city by city. Uh, and what I'm that 96 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:28.040 there's a there's Detroit. So we're just flowing. 97 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:28.879 We're flowing right now. 98 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:31.720 We're just doing it. We're just doing it. Yeah, that's fine. So, Uh, 99 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:34.600 what I try to show is, city by city, how 100 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:39.560 highways were used basically to divide between black and white communities, 101 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:42.879 uh in some cases, and then also destroy black communities 102 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:47.120 in other cases. How they were used to basically write 103 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:52.279 white supremacy into the built environment of American cities, and 104 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:56.519 what the process is, how that happened. And what this 105 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:02.079 is showing is an example in Detroit. So you can 106 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:05.120 see here Detroit basically before and after. In the project, 107 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.040 I use a lot of aerial imagery basically to show 108 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:11.360 what happened, so you can see in this example, I'll 109 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:15.040 just talk through it. Paradise valley and black bottom. You 110 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:18.839 can see in the before image in those white labels, 111 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:27.519 So before federal desegregation is and did again in with 112 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:29.759 some with things like brown b board, So this is 113 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:36.360 fifty before the fifties. Basically, segregation is legal. Cities are 114 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:37.959 allowed to say black people can live here and white 115 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.319 people can live here. It's by a variety of mechanisms, 116 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:45.000 some which are official laws, some which are sort of 117 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:51.439 real estate practices. Right, but yeah, so exactly, redlining is 118 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.079 an example of something that's a law. But then there's 119 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.920 something like then there's other things like restrictive covenants, which 120 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:01.439 are basically so that's real estate. That's that's a sort 121 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.680 of yeah, well h oo as are the descendant of 122 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:07.360 restrictive covenants. 123 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.519 Ah okay, okay. 124 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:12.120 Yeah, So a restrictive covenant is a thing that's written 125 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.040 into the deed of houses that says you can only 126 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:16.680 sell to quote unquote people of the Caucasian race only. 127 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:21.199 So that's that's an example of like a private Uh yeah, 128 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:24.079 the Color of lat talks about this example exactly. That's 129 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.959 an example of sort of private mechanism by which they 130 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:31.480 upheld segregation. And then there's redlining, which is sort of 131 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:38.600 the government legal way of doing it. But the results 132 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:43.759 of that is you get these black districts. You get 133 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:46.480 these uh and these are the these are the historic 134 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.039 districts like Harlem that we talk about, you know. And 135 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:53.480 in this case in Detroit, it's Black Black Bottom in 136 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:58.919 Paradise Valley and it's basically this linear cord or arrayed 137 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:03.440 along Hasting Street, which you see there. So this community 138 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:11.840 is is constrained by segregation. But even despite that, in 139 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:14.759 this in this case of Hastings and in Paradise Valley 140 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:19.000 and Black Bottom and and so many other of these neighborhoods, 141 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:23.519 despite the segregation, a really strong actually I mean a community, 142 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.799 really strong community forms, but a strong economy forms too, yes, 143 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:32.320 because within your community exactly. And and you see these 144 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.519 these corridors in this case Hastings Street. And if you 145 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:37.080 if you go back to some of those other pictures 146 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:40.080 that was sort of Hastings with John Lee Hooker with 147 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:43.320 the guitar, that was Hasting Well that's that's yeah, that one, 148 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:45.360 that's good one. The other one, the. 149 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:49.039 Butove picture is the thriving Hastings with the record stores 150 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:51.480 and the porter market, et cetera. 151 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.720 Yeah, yeah, and the bottom is what it is now exactly. 152 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:01.720 And and what's interesting about the Hasting case is so 153 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:04.679 and and these these two images, the before and the 154 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.279 before images of this one and then the other one, 155 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.240 these are actually both album covers. So it shows that, yeah, 156 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:14.320 this one. Uh so even at the time these were 157 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:16.919 like there's a conception that this is like a special place. 158 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:18.559 I mean it's like one twenty fifth Street in Harlem, 159 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:25.000 you know, right, it's it's uh, it's it's bil Street, yeah, 160 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:32.600 exactly of commercial activity, but then also cultural production, you know. 161 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.600 And and we get out of something like Hasting Street. 162 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:39.240 You know Joe's Records where where John Lee Hooker is 163 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:42.759 standing in front of there. That's where Aretha Franklin records 164 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:46.759 her first album. And her dad was also very famous, 165 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:51.200 Reverend and Hey or Key records his first stuff at 166 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.679 at Joe's Records here. And I actually got these images 167 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.879 from so Joe Van Battle is the owner of Joe's 168 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:03.720 Records here, his daughter Marcia Music. I got these photos 169 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:06.639 from her, and she there's an she has an excellent 170 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.600 blog post, it's like more than a blog post, an 171 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.000 excellent piece on her website. The Detroit is all all 172 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:19.240 about her dad's experiences. So it's and and you see 173 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.559 they route the highway right down the middle of the 174 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:30.799 of the of Hastings there, so the highways okay, so 175 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.480 to set the stage, yeah, it's it's so you see 176 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.279 this before image, the nineteen forty nine right, So there's 177 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.480 the Black Corridor that is basically a raid along Hastings 178 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:48.759 that is policed and confined by segregation. The rest of 179 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:55.039 the city is largely white, it's largely working class. This 180 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:02.320 starts to change after basically around the turn of the 181 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.200 after the twenties, with the Great Migration, which I'm sure 182 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:07.279 you're familiar with. But the Great Migration is a movement 183 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:11.000 of six million black uh six million rural Black Americans 184 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:16.240 from the South basically to northern and western cities. The 185 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:21.279 largest you know, the largest destinations are like New York 186 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:28.120 and Los Angeles, Chicago, but Detroit is also a major one. 187 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:30.600 And so this is happening. So Detroit is actually a 188 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.399 really representative example. So you could I'm talking about Detroit 189 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.080 here specifically, but this can this happened all over the place. 190 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.519 So there are more and more black people coming into 191 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.720 cities and on coastal cities, there's more and more immigrants, 192 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:51.840 So cities are becoming more more non white, and this, 193 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.919 to some extent, kicks off white flight unfortunately, basically as 194 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:01.279 the non white populations are rising in downtown and because 195 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:02.759 that's where a lot of these people are moving, because 196 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:05.519 that's where a chap housing is, and then b that's 197 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.759 where jobs are. So as the racial makeup of the 198 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:13.799 inner city, what the inner city is changing, white people 199 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.919 are basically moving out to the suburbs. And that's not 200 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.919 because that's not because each and every one of them 201 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.159 is necessarily a racist. That's because there's a lot of 202 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:26.879 financial incentives set up for them to do that, redlining 203 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.399 being one of them, basically saying that you can't get 204 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.000 a mortgage in any neighborhood that black people live in, 205 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:34.679 which gives an incentive for people who can move out 206 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:35.399 to move out. 207 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.159 Wow, I didn't know it was the reverse as well, Like, 208 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.360 so they don't want white people living in black neighborhoods either. 209 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:47.879 Oh, precisely, exactly. Yeah, So there's push and pull factors 210 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:50.559 basically that cause. So, Okay, I guess what I'm trying 211 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.600 to set the stage here for is white flight, right, 212 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:57.159 because this kind of explains then why this area is destroyed. 213 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:00.000 It's not just purely I mean, it is largely racial mallege, 214 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:02.639 but there's an economic logic behind it that I'm trying 215 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:07.919 to set up. But basically, mostly white cities become largely 216 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.240 non white, and there's various things that incentivize white people 217 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.679 to leave. There's sort of the push factor of the 218 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.159 Great Migration, which is all these non white folks moving in, 219 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.679 moving moving into downtowns. And then there's, especially after World 220 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:26.559 War Two, there's the pull factor, which is. 221 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.440 How they created Israel. It's the same, it's the same 222 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.399 mechanic mechanism. We're going to push you out of Germany 223 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:36.440 and Europe with recent with anti semitism and fascism, and 224 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:39.759 then we're going to pull you into Israel with incentives. 225 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.240 The history of that I'm not familiar with, but I 226 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:47.600 think it's probably similar to how they Oh, I'm telling. 227 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:48.600 You, I mean this is a fact. 228 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.000 This is like this Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, this 229 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:52.480 is a fact. 230 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.879 Like you're incentivized to go to Israel as a Jewish 231 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.480 person because you are going to be given subsidiary subsidiaries. 232 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.320 You're going to be given free healthcare, You're going to 233 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:04.759 be given money for a home, money for school, et cetera, 234 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:07.320 et cetera. And so there's the push and the pull 235 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:10.879 in order to create an economic space that can be 236 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:17.679 then utilized for whatever purpose or you know. 237 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:20.559 Yeah, exactly, it's it's about like clearing out of people 238 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:23.960 to then create a space for yes, precisely. And we 239 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.840 can and and uh, we can get to push pulling 240 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.519 Jewish folks to because I'm I'm Jewish, but I'm not 241 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.279 I'm an atheist. I don't we don't practice. 242 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:35.039 I mean, I don't care if you're atheists. I care 243 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:36.120 if you're a Zionist. 244 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.919 Oh, I'm absolutely an anti zionist. Don't worry about that, 245 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:47.159 I assumed because you don't. I have a joke that 246 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.480 I said. I don't want to say it here. 247 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.000 But this is the place we all are are literal 248 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:55.200 quote is by any joke necessary, so say. 249 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.679 It's like people, it's like I no, I don't want 250 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:03.720 to say. But regardless, regardless, Adam chicken out of the job. 251 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:05.960 I did chick it out of it. We can really 252 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:10.840 get back to it later. But well, I just I 253 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:12.600 do have a story about like birth right, we left, 254 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.200 I went with a buddy and we left. But this 255 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:16.600 isn't what Well, no. 256 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:18.919 So let me just tell you we're gonna eventually get 257 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:20.639 to that, because the question I'm going to ask you 258 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:24.200 is how did you become a kind of person, specifically 259 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:27.480 a white person who cares about this, Like, we're gonna 260 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.919 get to that because this type of work, it can't 261 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.519 we can't just talk about this type of work in 262 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:35.799 the silo of the work, because there's a certain type 263 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:39.440 of person that pursues this knowledge, right, and then decides 264 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:42.000 to expose this knowledge, And we need to as a 265 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:47.000 society lift up those people, but also lift up the scenarios, 266 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:52.679 the education, the community that creates those people. So it's 267 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:54.639 not just going to be So this interview is not 268 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:56.559 just about your work. I want to know about why 269 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:58.600 you choose to do this work as well, because I 270 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:03.480 consider it to be really important and necessary. So they 271 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.039 draw this, they decide to do the white flight, push 272 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:12.519 the white flight, and you're telling you're saying that, So 273 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:14.839 I guess my white question before you go on is 274 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:23.079 what is the government's goal in creating a nexus of 275 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:27.039 white people in one suburban area and black people in 276 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.319 one area beyond racism? 277 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:39.079 Economic development growth? So white flight? Right, So black people 278 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.319 were formally confined to this area, but then legal segregation 279 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.720 gets broken down as all these people are coming. So 280 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.279 and this is also in combination with white people leaving right, 281 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.119 so property owners downtown are not really happy about that. 282 00:17:56.519 --> 00:18:03.720 The you see downtown, I've labeled that there yes black 283 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:06.119 bottom and paradise value right next to that, right next 284 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.519 to downtown, and that proximity is important. And this is 285 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.559 again it's that you know, there's it's it's called the 286 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:15.880 inner city for a reason. It's because these people were 287 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:18.039 moving to a specific part of the city, which again 288 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.400 is where the jobs and affordable housing was. And as 289 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:26.440 and white people are leaving, the people, the people who 290 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:30.119 own property in the commercial districts downtown are really really 291 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:34.720 unhappy that now they're surrounded by this racialized inner city. 292 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:37.960 And there were and because this is the basically the 293 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:40.039 underpinning of redlining in the first place, which is the 294 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:44.119 idea that people of different races living in close proximity 295 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:48.440 reduces property values. And that really boils down to the 296 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.119 fact that black people reduce property values. And this you 297 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:54.599 can look at the writings of this guy Homer Homer 298 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:58.079 Hoyt and Richard t. Eli from the University of Madison, Wisconsin, 299 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:02.279 and they wrote a lot of the Basically the academic 300 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.960 underpinning of redlining, and the idea is that black people 301 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.400 being proximity reduces property values. So now suddenly the commercial core, 302 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.920 the oldest part of the city is surrounded by non 303 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.799 white people. You know, in Detroit it's black people, and 304 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.480 it's not just black people, but it is largely, but 305 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:22.680 it's also Chinatown obviously in Los Angeles, is in many cities, 306 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.519 and then in San Antonio it's Mexican Town, which is 307 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.559 what it's called. It's it's not just black, but it is. 308 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.960 It's it's they end up bearing the front of it. 309 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:38.359 Just numbers wise and historic animosity obviously, but urban so 310 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.599 as desegregation ends, then urban renewal and highway funds come 311 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.880 along and they use that money to kill two birds 312 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.359 with one stone. So and you can see that right here. 313 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.799 What they're doing is they surround downtown in a highway 314 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.359 loop that protects it from these neighborhoods that have now 315 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:01.400 become non white. Right, so it physically creates a division, 316 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:05.400 because divisions can protect that property value. Think before we 317 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:07.839 add highways the railroad tracks. That's why it's the other 318 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.480 side of the tracks, right or you know rivers like 319 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.839 or flood zones. But these divisions, going back to that 320 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.839 idea that proximity reduces property values. If there's a division, 321 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.839 uh do, if there's a division, then it can uphold 322 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:24.640 the property values. 323 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:29.680 So they're they're over there. See see they're over there. 324 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.200 So the highway, even though it's literally just a structure, 325 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:40.240 it provides this like a wall, so to speak, saying. 326 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:44.720 Okay, exactly and and and there's a great book. I 327 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:46.200 have it here. It's not it's kind of like not 328 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:48.480 show up, but dividing lines. 329 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:53.640 Yeah, but you're not in a warehouse with graded ceilings. 330 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.400 And you know this is actually this is actually my 331 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.519 local train station. It took this photo the other day. 332 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:01.599 Oh wow. 333 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:04.599 Yeah yeah, yeah, you can see the train of the 334 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:06.079 bank there. Nice. 335 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:07.599 But you're in Europe. 336 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:13.599 Yeah yeah, yeah. I'm doing a PhD over here, casual. 337 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.599 I'm from South Florida originally, but and I work based 338 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:20.240 in New York, so we go back, and I go 339 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.319 back quite often. Greta Tonberg would be unhappy with me. 340 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:26.119 I just want to point out to you all that 341 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.720 I am cosmopolitan and then traveled which is how I 342 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:30.720 knew that it was Europe once I saw the blue 343 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.759 and yellow train. All right, let's bring it back. So 344 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:42.559 they build these walls of highway, and my question becomes, 345 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:47.839 is this also utilized as like, oh, now the white 346 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.519 flyers have like direct access. 347 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:54.039 Into the city precisely right, So, and that's what I'm 348 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:56.799 saying when I'm killed too birds with on stone. So 349 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:01.839 it divides and and then also creates connections to the 350 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.440 whites only suburbs, which you better believe have restrictive covenants, 351 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:09.680 and as a private practice, by the way, that stays 352 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.079 on a lot longer than something like legal segregation, which 353 00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.359 is struck down in the courts. That's just that's why 354 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.519 that distinction is a little important. But so yeah, the 355 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.000 highways that they divide, they cut through, they protect downtown, 356 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.240 and then they provide white folks with direct opportunity rather 357 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.640 with direct access to the economic opportunities downtown. So it's 358 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:34.039 some to some extent, you know, it doesn't work that well, right, 359 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.920 because a lot of jobs still end up going to 360 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.480 the suburbs, and then we end up with kind of 361 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:43.079 hallowed out downtowns. And this is why we end up 362 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:47.440 with spaces, right like that, So it divides. That's one use, 363 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:54.400 but then there's also times where it just is designed 364 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:59.799 almost to take up space, like is designed to remove 365 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.319 the population they didn't want and then replace that with, 366 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:10.200 you know, again a connection to the suburbs. So it just. 367 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.000 Takes up displacement. 368 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:15.759 It's Yeah, the displacement's intentional exactly because they those people 369 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:22.680 being there reduced property values. And in some cases they 370 00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:27.000 build public housing. That's actually kind of rare, but they 371 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:30.559 end up building far fewer units of public housing than 372 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:33.920 using units they destroyed. And that's true everywhere. You know, 373 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.920 this is that's definitely turned Detroit, It's true everywhere name 374 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:39.319 of city, certainly New York. Right. 375 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.680 And even when they build a public housing, they don't 376 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:47.559 like protect it, they don't support it. They i mean, 377 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:53.000 they create kind of dens of criminality that they can 378 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.920 use to them bring people back into the prison industrial 379 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.880 crisis by creating public housing that they don't provide resources to. 380 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:03.160 Yeah, and precisely that exactly. And and and then also 381 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.039 they will locate yes, very well said. And then they'll 382 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:12.839 locate it in areas that are already largely black and 383 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:18.480 already largely for uh and and this This happens especially 384 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:21.839 in like New York and Chicago. And this explains why. 385 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.279 You know, when you look at some of these before 386 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:25.880 and afters, they just destroy a neighborhood and then replace 387 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:28.559 it with these tower blocks. Uh. And the result of 388 00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:31.759 that is that a what you do there is you 389 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:33.680 replace a lot of owners with a lot of renters. 390 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:40.519 Practically, they can't we can't skip over that. 391 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:46.079 Well, that's a whole other element, because there's the there's 392 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.000 the sort of good. 393 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.119 No, gone, no, please, you you're the guest. 394 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.680 Well sorry, I just feel like I'm like right, I mean, it's. 395 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.000 Uh, we're here to be lectured by fair enough. 396 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.440 Well, there's is the mechanism by which these properties get 397 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:08.079 taken right through eminent domain. That's the term. And eminent 398 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:12.680 domain isn't inherently an evil thing. Sometimes we do need 399 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:17.799 to build linear things, you know, linear rights of way, sewers, 400 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:24.279 pipes and roads. Yes, sometimes, but eminent domain where you're 401 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:27.799