1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:08,839 Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,000 an idea. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,439 Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through. 4 00:00:13,359 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,120 I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, 6 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:23,160 not because. 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:24,839 Speaker 2: I put my hand on a book and made a. 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,839 Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world. 9 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:32,039 Speaker 3: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. 10 00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:34,719 Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way. 11 00:00:35,679 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:52,759 Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 13 00:00:56,159 --> 00:00:59,359 Speaker 3: There is a video version of what you're about to hear. 14 00:00:59,439 --> 00:01:02,679 My interview with doctor Aaron Adair. He wrote a book 15 00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:06,920 called The Star of Bethlehem, a skeptical view. Now he's 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,480 a physicist and he has done a lot of research 17 00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:15,879 into the Nativity story, the background of Jesus as a 18 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,400 mythological character. Was there a real Jesus? Well, he's got 19 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:22,680 a perspective on that. We talk about Matthew versus Luke, 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,040 and then the earlier pagan question mark origins of so 21 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,439 many Christmas traditions. I do enjoy walking into the house 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,000 of a devout believer and being like not Christian, that's 23 00:01:35,079 --> 00:01:40,359 not Christian. Not Christian. Ooh, definitely not Christian. And I 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,640 don't say anything. I'm not that guy, but I do 25 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,480 have those thoughts. I also have this thought since I've 26 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:49,319 got a few minutes and I just want to vent 27 00:01:50,599 --> 00:01:54,159 I enjoyed the holiday. I don't love Christmas like I 28 00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:58,280 love Halloween. Halloween it's a lot more personality, I think. 29 00:01:58,319 --> 00:02:00,760 And it's not just because it's it it's dark. I 30 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,359 just think there are more layers to it. Right Christmas 31 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,319 to me, you know, we get together with those we 32 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,039 care about in my house, we open gifts and we 33 00:02:11,159 --> 00:02:14,800 enjoy great food, and we say language of love. We 34 00:02:14,879 --> 00:02:17,960 actually have a tradition where we write down our history 35 00:02:18,039 --> 00:02:20,120 for the years, so we talk about some of the 36 00:02:20,159 --> 00:02:22,919 big things that we did or didn't do, want to do, 37 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:26,280 learn thought, et cetera. And then we sit around in 38 00:02:26,319 --> 00:02:28,879 a big circle and we share those and so you know, 39 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,840 this year I did this, and I was given the 40 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:33,319 honor of that, and we're going to talk about the 41 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,879 stuff that made twenty twenty five not suck. And then 42 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,120 at the end we all play some games and hug 43 00:02:42,159 --> 00:02:45,120 and everybody goes home. Christmas right. We got a Christmas tree. 44 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:47,719 It's a little led tree that we got for one 45 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,759 hundred bucks years ago at home depot. It's one of 46 00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:54,879 the it's led, so you just walk by and you 47 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,400 step on the little switch and you can make it white, 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,919 you can make it colorful, you can make it static, 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,599 you can make it flash or blink or do whatever. 50 00:03:02,879 --> 00:03:05,800 I'm in that's my kind of tree. The thing goes 51 00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:10,319 up in three minutes and it looks amazing. And some 52 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,159 Christmas music I do enjoy, even a few of the 53 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,919 songs that talk about the baby Jesus. Now this makes 54 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:22,520 some atheist's head explode. I enjoy the song Oh Holy Night. 55 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,719 I know it's about Jesus. I know that, but I 56 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,879 love the melody of it. I will play it sometimes 57 00:03:29,879 --> 00:03:32,919 on the piano. I can separate in my brain the 58 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,759 fact that it's mythology. I just kind of dig how 59 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,199 the song vibes. And some people can't go there, and 60 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,759 that's totally fine. But I'm able to with some of 61 00:03:43,759 --> 00:03:47,639 the tunes separate them. But I do understand the feeling 62 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,240 of cynicism that does creep up when this time of 63 00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:54,080 year hits, because so much of it is just so 64 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,360 damn happy. And I don't mean like a healthy version 65 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,479 of happiness. You're centered, you feel warm in your heart, 66 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,159 you are secure and content, and I don't know whatever 67 00:04:07,319 --> 00:04:10,479 happy is in that sound. I'm talking about those ads 68 00:04:10,719 --> 00:04:13,879 for the retailers who are desperate for us to go 69 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,319 into massive debt to buy shit that people will use 70 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,720 for five minutes before they toss it away and then 71 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,519 the music plays. All of these commercials have the same 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,160 kind of music, ding ding ding ding ding ding ding 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,560 ding ding dinging. Nothing's that happy. Nothing is that happy 74 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,199 unless you're six years old. That kind of music probably 75 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,720 makes you crazy. The bells, bells, bells, bells, bells, bells, bells, 76 00:04:38,759 --> 00:04:39,759 so many bells. 77 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: Stop with the bells. 78 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 3: Stop it. There are perfect looking people with perfect hair 79 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:49,519 and perfect skin, perfect teeth, wearing all of their perfect 80 00:04:49,639 --> 00:04:53,040 red and green attire, hugging and laughing and womping through 81 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,480 the aisles of Target or Walmart or wherever, or the 82 00:04:57,639 --> 00:05:01,959 jewelry stores. Oh, those commercials are amazing, aren't they. A 83 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,160 guy walks It's always a guy. He walks in and 84 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:08,879 he picks out the perfect ring or the perfect necklace 85 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,439 for the woman that he loves. It's never a non 86 00:05:11,519 --> 00:05:14,120 hetero couple. It's always a man and a woman. And 87 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,120 he goes in and then he goes home and there's 88 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,920 a special dinner, or they're in front of the fireplace 89 00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:22,120 and he opens up that little box and a bobble 90 00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:25,199 blings and she starts to cry and they hug and 91 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,040 it's so beautiful. And I'm like, that guy just went 92 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,600 into dead at twenty one percent interest to buy a 93 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:39,519 five thousand dollars rock. I just don't understand it. It's 94 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,519 a rock, it's a shiny rock. It's a rock. How 95 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,000 long by your knockoff for fifty bucks? No one can 96 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,040 tell the difference. I don't think we assess our love. 97 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,879 We don't measure our love for each other based on 98 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,879 how many zeros exist before the decimal point on the risk. 99 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:02,920 I just don't. But that's so much of what the 100 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,480 holiday is. And then I'm driving down our neighborhood street 101 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,160 and I see Christmas decorations. Now I'm in, I've got 102 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,839 Christmas decorations. There are more winter decorations. We've got the 103 00:06:15,879 --> 00:06:18,759 big deer. I got some big deer. We've had them 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,079 for seven years. We put him out, and I've got 105 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:24,519 red and blue and white lights. I actually make a pond. 106 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,439 There's a river that goes and it creates a pond 107 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,000 with a neon outline, and I cast some blue green 108 00:06:31,199 --> 00:06:33,759 hues upon the rock of the house to make it 109 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,480 look like a winter scene. And it's so pretty, and 110 00:06:37,519 --> 00:06:41,199 I enjoy looking at it. Hell I enjoy displaying it 111 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,199 for everybody else and us. I'm cruising down the road. 112 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,399 We've got a big inflatable snow globe, so pretty, a 113 00:06:49,439 --> 00:06:52,759 big Santa Claus. There's a snowman that looks like he's 114 00:06:52,759 --> 00:06:56,399 made out of giant styrofoam, with the carrot nose and 115 00:06:56,439 --> 00:06:59,920 the coal eyes and the scarf and the little twig hand. 116 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:05,639 He's adorable. We've got the big toy soldiers from the Nutcracker. 117 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,079 Somebody down the street has one that looks like it's 118 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,079 eight feet tall. I'm like, how fun is that? How 119 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,120 festive is that? And then I see the Nativity scenes? 120 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,920 Is there anything more kitchy on this planet than a 121 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,240 Nativity scene? You know what I'm saying. First of all, 122 00:07:24,279 --> 00:07:26,079 I think about the one that looks like two t 123 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,959 rexes fighting each other. Have you seen that? They're everywhere? 124 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,000 They are ubiquitous, So if you haven't just pay attention. 125 00:07:33,079 --> 00:07:34,639 You're going to go by, and it's supposed to be 126 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,199 Mary and Joseph on each side of the baby, Jesus 127 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,560 looking down, and all of a sudden your brain flips 128 00:07:40,839 --> 00:07:43,560 and you don't see Mary, Joseph and the baby. You 129 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,959 see two tea rexes fighting with each other. And now 130 00:07:48,319 --> 00:07:51,560 whenever I cruise by one of those, that's all I see. 131 00:07:51,879 --> 00:07:55,639 That's all I see. But there are nativities for the mantle, 132 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,279 and there are nativities on wall paintings, and there are 133 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,920 of courseivities in yards everywhere. And I, as a former 134 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:11,160 evangelical Bible believing Nativity seen believing Christian, now I see 135 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:15,560 not the miraculous magical birth of the hero of the story. 136 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:20,800 I'm like God decided to save humanity by knocking up 137 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:24,720 an unwed teenagers so the baby could spend thirty some 138 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:31,000 years doing undocumented miracles before becoming a bloody meat pinota 139 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,320 to rescue us from the torture chamber that he himself created. 140 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:42,639 Because that omniscient, omnipotent deity couldn't properly blueprint his own creation. 141 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,399 Everybody else is doing the Christmas pageant, and they bring 142 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,399 some actual baby in and They've got a Mary and 143 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,399 a Joseph in their role in their little biblical attire. 144 00:08:54,519 --> 00:08:58,919 Some churches bring live animals in Oh, look a camel, 145 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:04,320 a donkey, a sheep. There are drive through Nativity scenes. 146 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,679 You stay in your car and you weave through on 147 00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:10,799 a road in a parking lot, all of these scenes. Ah. 148 00:09:10,919 --> 00:09:15,720 There's the wise men. Ah, there's herod Ah. There's Bethlehem, 149 00:09:15,879 --> 00:09:21,000 there's the Manger. There's light and happiness and confetti and 150 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,720 probably somebody at the end of the road with a 151 00:09:23,799 --> 00:09:26,639 Bible asking you to drop to your knees to accept 152 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:32,120 the baby Jesus that you just saw a block before. Kitchie, 153 00:09:32,879 --> 00:09:36,759 I'm just saying it's Kitchie. Now, I will say that 154 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:42,039 I am all about these anti Ice Nativity displays. These 155 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,720 have become a flashpoint in the United States. Have you 156 00:09:44,879 --> 00:09:47,799 seen them? If you have not, you should Google search 157 00:09:47,879 --> 00:09:54,000 them because wow, and this is legit. There are progressive, egalitarian, 158 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:58,840 humanistic believers, whether it's an individual Christian or somebody in 159 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:03,240 a neighborhood, ergy, an entire church, a whole church. They 160 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:07,559 are protesting these kidnappings off of our streets by Ice. 161 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:12,799 Immigration and Customs Enforcement otherwise known as the American Gestapo, 162 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,240 and so they're putting nativities out that comment on the 163 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:22,799 atrocity and injustice it all. Lake Street Church, Evanston, Illinois. 164 00:10:22,799 --> 00:10:25,559 They've got a baby Jesus in the manger. He is 165 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:30,600 wrapped in a silver emergency blanket and Jesus's wrists are 166 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,720 zip tied. Mary is outside the actual manger building. She's 167 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:40,039 got a plastic gas mask gone. She's being flanked by 168 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,600 Roman soldiers who are dressed up in ice tactical gear. 169 00:10:44,759 --> 00:10:49,080 I mean, it's powerful stuff. There is another church, Urban 170 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,600 Village Church in Chicago that has a sign at the 171 00:10:52,639 --> 00:10:56,279 manger and it says this quote due to ice activity 172 00:10:56,399 --> 00:11:02,279 in our community. The Holy Family is in Saint Susannah 173 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,639 Parish in Deda, Massachusetts, has a Nativity scene that's empty, 174 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,399 replaced only with a hand painted sign that says ice 175 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:16,399 was here. Of course, news agencies and Magaville are losing 176 00:11:16,639 --> 00:11:22,039 their minds. The Fox News types are just absolutely soiling themselves. Ironically, 177 00:11:22,519 --> 00:11:25,440 there are some who say that, well, because these churches 178 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,279 are making a political statement, especially in contradiction to the 179 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,519 actions of our government, they should lose their tax exempt status, 180 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,759 which is stupid. It's just so crazy because those same 181 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,080 megachurches have been endorsing political candidates from the stage, from 182 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,240 behind the pulpits on the podiums. They're just literally saying 183 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,320 vote here. Some churches handing out voter guides. Jesus wants 184 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,480 you to vote Republican. Those churches, they get to skate 185 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,559 the churches who are making commentary about how their Jesus 186 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,080 went hard against the money any changers and loved everybody 187 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,519 and would never throw somebody in the back of a 188 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,720 van to have them shipped off to a torture chamber somewhere. 189 00:12:09,159 --> 00:12:12,399 Those people, no, no, they're in the crosshairs because they've 190 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,720 broken our state church separation laws. Just so stupid. But 191 00:12:17,759 --> 00:12:20,480 the actual Nativity scenes, the ones that are playing it 192 00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:25,519 straight to me, they are like a Mentos commercial, a 193 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:32,120 Fanta commercial. They're just too freaking sweet. Anyway, I do 194 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,639 fight cynicism like I'm two people, fun, amazing, wonderful Christmas 195 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,480 and you've got to be shitting me. This is marketing 196 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,639 and retail and guilt and shame and mythology Christmas and 197 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,559 I tend to pendle them swing back and forth. How 198 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:58,240 about you today, Let's talk Christmas with a physicist who 199 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,360 has been talking a lot about the cosmology of the 200 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,039 story and there's more to it than you might think. 201 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,320 And then the rest of the myth broken down. So 202 00:13:06,399 --> 00:13:08,720 let's get into that again. There's a video. It is 203 00:13:08,799 --> 00:13:21,480 linked in the description box. That interview happens. Next, let's 204 00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:24,799 talk to a physicist and someone who has d constructed 205 00:13:24,879 --> 00:13:29,360 the Biblical Nativity story. Aaron Adair. Good to see you, 206 00:13:29,399 --> 00:13:29,840 my friend. 207 00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:31,799 Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me over. 208 00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:35,919 Speaker 3: Let's talk about the birth of the baby Jesus. Jesus 209 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,039 is the reason for the season. By the way, the 210 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,279 war on Christmas is that underway. I haven't browsed Fox 211 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:47,039 News recently, but I know that's an annual mantra them atheist, secular, humanist, etc. 212 00:13:47,519 --> 00:13:51,279 They hate Christmas and they want we were shaming people 213 00:13:51,399 --> 00:13:55,480 who say Merry Christmas. You've heard this story right Eron. 214 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I think you are right that Fox 215 00:13:57,279 --> 00:14:00,919 who's already has their anti Christmas war or lights out 216 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:03,360 nor learning Ingram is already talking about the Grinches of 217 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:07,200 Christmas going around ruining our wonderful holiday with our evil 218 00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:12,159 secular Muslim Buddhist Satanists commination of things. Because that's obviously 219 00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:14,080 what we do we just go around hating Christmas so 220 00:14:14,159 --> 00:14:17,039 much that we mix all religions and none in our 221 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,720 war against people that just woke up on the wrong 222 00:14:19,759 --> 00:14:20,399 side of the bed. 223 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,799 Speaker 3: How do you address the question you're an atheist or 224 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,519 you know, don't believe in a literal baby Jesus came 225 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:31,240 to save the world, blah blah blah. Why in the 226 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:34,720 world would you ever celebrate Christmas? Aaron Adare. 227 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:36,919 Speaker 2: It's fun and is the way that we try to 228 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,159 make one part of the year a little bit nicer. 229 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:42,440 It's fundamentally traditioned in the same sort of way that 230 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,879 today is Friday. But I don't think of the Norse 231 00:14:45,919 --> 00:14:48,360 god Friga or Freya on this sort of day. It's 232 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,159 just happens to be what we call it, and we 233 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:51,919 happen to celebrate it because it's the end of the 234 00:14:51,919 --> 00:14:54,080 work week. We have found a way to make this 235 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:57,200 time of the year interesting. Why not keep on with 236 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:58,159 the a tradition that's fun. 237 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: So I saw an article, one of many protests by apologists. 238 00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:05,600 This one was on the Gospel Coalition site from a 239 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,320 couple of years ago, and it said, no modern Christmas 240 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,759 tradition can draw a straight line to any clear and 241 00:15:12,879 --> 00:15:18,159 decisive pagan origin. In other words, there are no Pagan 242 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,320 links to the holiday according to this particular Christian site. Aaron, 243 00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:25,120 how would you respond. 244 00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: I will say it is complicated, and of course if 245 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,480 they need decisive evidence, that sounds like where you set 246 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,799 the bar to whatever level you need to be in denial. Now, 247 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,799 plenty of traditions around Christmas are probably independent of the 248 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:44,360 quote unquote pagan world. It's not really well evidenced that 249 00:15:44,399 --> 00:15:47,080 the Christmas tree is ultimately a Pagan origin, though many 250 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,519 have tried for that. On the other hand, the fact 251 00:15:49,519 --> 00:15:51,840 that we have this gift giving and all this merrymaking 252 00:15:51,919 --> 00:15:54,240 at this approximate time of the year, which you also 253 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,440 find in like Roman celebrations like Saturnalia, which included gift giving, 254 00:15:57,759 --> 00:16:00,279 it's hard to say that there is no relationship. And 255 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,759 ultimately how that all worked out is lost. We don't 256 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:06,200 have that greate a documentation, say in the fourth century, 257 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,759 because well, first off, most people are literate. They're not 258 00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:11,000 writing down today where it's celebrating a new tradition, and 259 00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:13,120 I'm writing this down in Latin that I can't write in. 260 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:17,279 Speaker 3: Do you believe there was a literal Jesus. I'm not 261 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,159 trying to put you on the hook, but I know 262 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:22,840 the mythicist historicist debate is always a hot one. Where 263 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:23,360 do you fall? 264 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: So this is where I would be an outsider that 265 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,720 I do doubt the historicity of Jesus. But I don't 266 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,000 make that a premise in most of my argumentation, because 267 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,399 there's plenty of reasons to be doubtful of the story 268 00:16:35,399 --> 00:16:37,320 even if there was a dude and he was born 269 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,399 and died at approximate of the times that the only 270 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,000 stories about him place him. But I think there's plenty 271 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,759 of reason to doubt if, of course, new evidence or 272 00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:47,679 new augmentation comes up changed my mind. I'm totally for that. 273 00:16:47,919 --> 00:16:49,639 I don't hold to it all that strongly. 274 00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: I'm with you like for me, as long as we 275 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,000 can be confident that the god Man didn't exist. The 276 00:16:55,039 --> 00:16:57,639 rest is academic. It's interesting, we can chat about it 277 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:00,200 over coffee, but I don't get my hooks. Do not 278 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,960 get hung up on that particular snag. Let's talk about 279 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,799 Quirinius and the census, which makes no sense and is 280 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:13,000 I believe contradicted between Matthew and Luke. Do you get 281 00:17:13,039 --> 00:17:15,559 into the census and Joseph. 282 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 2: So specifically, if we're talking about in my book The 283 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,839 Star of Bethlehem, a skeptical view always available at Amazon. 284 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,680 I don't talk about the census too much except insofar 285 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,039 as it does not match well the timeline from the 286 00:17:28,039 --> 00:17:30,680 Gospel of Matthew. So just to give the thousand twot 287 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,279 view for everyone else what we're talking about here. In 288 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:36,720 the Bible, there are only two gospels that give a 289 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:39,519 story of the birth of Jesus. It's in the beginning 290 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:41,640 of the Gospel of Luke and the Gospel of Matthew. 291 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,119 Mark and John don't really talk about the birth of 292 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,599 Jesus in those different stories. The telling is very different. 293 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,799 There's rather little overlap between what Matthew and Luke say 294 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,680 about this, and it's enough reason to make us think 295 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,720 they don't have reliable sources whether or not we can 296 00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:01,640 know anything about an historical Jesus. Among the things that's 297 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,240 really weird is in the Gospel of Matthew. It clearly 298 00:18:05,279 --> 00:18:09,160 puts the birth of Jesus during the time of King 299 00:18:09,279 --> 00:18:12,519 Herod the Great, and we know very well when he ruled. 300 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,759 By several different factors, least of which is that we 301 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,680 have the historian Josephus, who among his sources were the 302 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,640 writings of Herod and his court historian. So if Herod's 303 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,920 court historian doesn't know when Herod ran things, we don't 304 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,319 know anything about the past. Now. Conversely, in the Gospel 305 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,559 of Luke, we don't have anything that really clearly places 306 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,079 Jesus' birth in the time of Herod or which Herod. 307 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,400 To make things all the more complicated, Herod had a 308 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,240 bunch of sons who also were named Herod, so it's 309 00:18:42,279 --> 00:18:45,240 like John having a bunch of John's as children. It's 310 00:18:45,319 --> 00:18:48,359 just to make it confusing for all of us later on. Nonetheless, 311 00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:51,759 the detail that Luke does give us says that the 312 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,480 Holy Family had to go from Nazareth to Bethlehem because 313 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,799 of a census the Romans reporting out, and that this 314 00:18:57,799 --> 00:19:02,319 took place during the governorship or rulering of Quirinius in Syria. 315 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,000 Why is this a problem? We know from also a 316 00:19:05,079 --> 00:19:08,720 multiplicity of sources when that takes place, and there is 317 00:19:08,799 --> 00:19:11,839 no overlap between the reign of King Herod the Great 318 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,920 and the governorship of Quarinus. There's about a decade between 319 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,160 the two, so there's at least a ten year impossibility 320 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:21,160 of these dates working, and as you can imagine, I 321 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,440 have not been the first person to notice this. Apologists 322 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,240 have been pulling their hair out about this for centuries, 323 00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:30,799 and it's basically a bunch of excusagetics on a good day. 324 00:19:31,279 --> 00:19:36,519 Speaker 3: Excusagetics is a great word. I'm stealing that eron oh, I. 325 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 2: Think also from Brian Dealt to. 326 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: Not original, Well, you steal it. Everything is borrowed in 327 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,640 this world. Why create mediocrity when you can copy genius? 328 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,000 So I believe it's also true that it wasn't required 329 00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:56,119 to leave your hometown to even register in the census, 330 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,559 and only the male heads of household had to do so. 331 00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:00,759 So this idea that he had to put or pregnant 332 00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:03,359 Mary on the donkey and then go travel somewhere, it 333 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,559 doesn't really hold up. Do you get into that at all, Aaron? 334 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:09,079 Speaker 2: Like I said, I don't talk too much about that 335 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,119 in my book. I tried to be as focused as 336 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,440 much as possible on the astronomical story. But you are right, 337 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,000 the census is senseless in how it is described. And 338 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,160 I want to tax you on your property. Why would 339 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,480 I send you to a place that only your ancestor 340 00:20:23,519 --> 00:20:27,599 a thousand years earlier supposedly came from. If you want 341 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,079 to know what taxable property I have, where would you 342 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,599 tell me to go if you need to check on 343 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,599 things where I actually live? Right, So, the whole idea 344 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,000 that people are going back to where their ancestors were 345 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,960 for the purposes of taxation makes absolutely no administrative sense. 346 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,160 And the fact that you have people all around the 347 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,880 empire now having to jump around and somehow they know 348 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,519 where their ancestors came from a thousand years ago, and 349 00:20:49,599 --> 00:20:52,279 also kind of a stupid thing because we say your ancestors, 350 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:55,680 not everyone's ancestors came from the same town. If I 351 00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:58,240 go back a few generations, I have people living in 352 00:20:58,279 --> 00:21:00,359 all sorts of different parts, even just in the state 353 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,240 of Michigan, where I originally come from, let alone coming 354 00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:07,319 back from Europe. Imagine someone in Rome in you know, 355 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,119 four BC, and say you have to go back to 356 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,440 where your ancestors were, Well, you have dozens and dozens 357 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,119 of ancestors at far back. Which hometown do you go to? Again? 358 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,680 It's just stupid And the idea that, of course all 359 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,559 this paperwork is around, that you could even know who 360 00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:24,720 your anceststors were, where they came from, and can point 361 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,519 that out and some guy in Rome even cares enough, 362 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:30,279 rather than just doing the simple thing, Hey, where did 363 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:30,680 your gret. 364 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 4: Great great great gret great greet great greet greet great 365 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,640 grandfather on your father's father's father father father's father father 366 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,920 father father's side come from? You could just ask that 367 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,279 question rather than tell someone. Okay, now go find a 368 00:21:39,279 --> 00:21:40,519 hotel in another country. 369 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:41,759 Speaker 2: It's just stupid. 370 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 3: Okay. So doctor Adair, let me ask you about the 371 00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:48,759 virgin birth. I know this is a big, a critical 372 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:51,559 part of the miracle story, right, I mean, he was 373 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:53,640 just born to a woman, a big deal. But if 374 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,240 it's a virgin of course we're looking at a mistranslation 375 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,559 from the Hebrew into the Greek. Do you want to 376 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:02,400 talk the quote unquote virgin birth. 377 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 2: Yes, the virgin birth is supposedly derived from the prophet 378 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,640 Isaiah that he is supposed to be talking about some 379 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:16,440 woman conceiving and giving birth to a child. And in 380 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,480 the Greek translation that was really popular at that time. 381 00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:23,079 Noticed the septuagit, the word used for that would suggest virginity. 382 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,640 The Greek word is parthenos. Now, the issue is that 383 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,000 if you go back to the Hebrew it's translating from 384 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,640 it doesn't necessarily have that idea of virginity. In some ways, though, 385 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,160 the Hebrew is even worse than that, because the Hebrew 386 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,000 kind of suggests that Isaiah is at that time pointing 387 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:43,400 to a woman who has conceived, she already is pregnant. 388 00:22:43,759 --> 00:22:46,279 The Greek has now changed into some sort of future event. 389 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,640 So the Greek doesn't match the Hebrew so well because 390 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,960 someone is trying to make this a prophecy of things 391 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,880 to come, and there are other Greek translations in the 392 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,920 same general timeframe that don't make this woman a parthenos, 393 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,680 So it's only in one Greek translation of that time 394 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,920 and ignoring the original language, ignoring everyone else who went 395 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,799 back to the original language to give better translations. And 396 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:11,400 then Matthew declaring, or at least someone in the name 397 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,680 of Matthew declaring, oh, this is a fulfillment of prophecy, 398 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,440 a prophecy that was effectively invented in the third century BC, 399 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,599 when the very approximate translation of this book place. 400 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,079 Speaker 3: But you know, let's say she was, you know, she 401 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,160 did immaculately conceive. We're talking about an unwed teenager in 402 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,559 the early first century CE, wouldn't the Bethlehem height be 403 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,799 taking a dim view of that? Or did they lie 404 00:23:38,279 --> 00:23:40,799 and act like Joseph was the baby daddy? 405 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that is going to of course raise some eyebrows, 406 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,480 because yeah, a woman who is pregnant outside of wedlock 407 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,599 is at the very least going to be noticed. One 408 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:54,079 point of language, though, I do want to note, is 409 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,599 that the immaculate conception is a separate thing from the 410 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,599 virgin birth. The immaculate conception is that Mary was somehow 411 00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:01,480 born without sin, so that way she could be a 412 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,519 pure vessel for the baby Jesus. Though this causes its 413 00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:07,119 own theological problems because if Mary can just you know, 414 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:09,079 if God can just snap his fingers and say she 415 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,440 doesn't have sin anymore, it seems like Jesus didn't need 416 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,160 to come. God could have just snapped his fingers a 417 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,440 little bit louder and problem solved for the whole world. 418 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,559 But I'll leave that theological problem aside for now. It's 419 00:24:20,599 --> 00:24:22,480 not like we have some other issues to deal with today. 420 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,880 But you're right, there is the contingent issue of how 421 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,519 is it that Mary could be pregnant outside of wedlock 422 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:34,319 and the town not noticing the best case scenario is 423 00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:37,640 Joseph as quickly as possible puts a ring on it, 424 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:39,440 or the equivalent of putting a ring on it in 425 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,359 the first century. So that way, by the time Mary 426 00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:45,440 is showing, it's not obvious that this took place before 427 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:49,000 the wedding. So that is the best case scenario in 428 00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:50,119 this story. 429 00:24:50,559 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 3: Erin, did you grow up singing we three kings? There 430 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,640 were three and there were kings? 431 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:56,319 Speaker 2: Yeah? 432 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 3: The problem is is that kings and three ain't in 433 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:00,599 the store, right. 434 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,799 Speaker 2: Yes, I definitely knew the song growing up. Fortunately I 435 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:07,519 did not sing that because I would hurt everyone's ear drums. 436 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:10,599 That's a problem. I don't want to push onto the world. 437 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,519 We want world peace, and that would not happen if 438 00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:16,640 I sing. Nonetheless, the idea that there are three kings 439 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,160 is much later tradition, the number three popping out primarily 440 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,559 because the wise men or magi depending on your translation, 441 00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:27,920 who come to baby Jesus come with three gifts, so 442 00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:30,680 you go from there. Now, there are other traditions where 443 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,839 there are different numbers of these wise men or a meji. 444 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,119 One of the other traditions is there as many as twelve, 445 00:25:36,519 --> 00:25:39,440 sometimes just an uncountably large number just show up. But 446 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,759 three is our tradition based on the gifts, and calling 447 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:47,799 them kings is also a later tradition, probably riffing off 448 00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:50,880 of I think it's Isaiah sixty that says kings will 449 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,000 come to your brightness, bringing gifts of gold and frankincense, 450 00:25:54,519 --> 00:25:57,480 and so people make the connection. There's like, oh, Isaiah's 451 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,720 talking about kings, then these guys are also king somehow, 452 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,119 some way to be historically accurate, though, the Greek term 453 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,440 that is being used here by Matthew is magoy or magus, 454 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,279 and this refers to a cast of priests in the 455 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,880 Zoroastrian religion in Persia. So they were important to religion 456 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,079 and government and to kingship in Persia, but they were 457 00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:25,119 not kings themselves. We have stories of them trying to 458 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,960 overthrow kings, but they were not themselves rulers in that way. 459 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 3: Let's talk physics, since this is your wheelhouse, the star 460 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,799 of bethlahemb They followed the star, and I was a 461 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,680 kid when I was growing up, I just pictured a 462 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,160 pin light and they just followed a pin light. But 463 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,839 if we're talking about a star now, I'm picturing them 464 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,160 following a giant orb of nuclear fusion burning at four 465 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,960 thousand degrees Calvin, that would have essentially incinerated everything on 466 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,240 the planet. Do you get into the star of bethlahemb. 467 00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: Oh, Yes, very very much. And yeah, the conception of 468 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:03,519 star that exists in antiquity, especially for the authors of 469 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,400 this story, can't possibly be our conception. If you have 470 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:10,480 the idea of, yeah, a nuclear furnace coming down close 471 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:13,039 enough to point something out on the Earth, first off, 472 00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:14,799 it's just not going to work. It's like taking a 473 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,279 beach ball and trying to point on a feature on 474 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,480 a marble. You're not going to be able to point 475 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,680 to a particular feature. And of course, the idea of 476 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,720 being close enough to even point to anything on Earth 477 00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:27,240 with that would you know, incinerate everyone. So that star 478 00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:31,720 cannot be how we understand things. So what is it 479 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,640 that Matthew is describing? For the vast majority of Christians 480 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,279 for millennia, it was pretty clear this is a miraculous object. 481 00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:43,119 It's either a star being moved around in the heavens 482 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,160 by the will of God, or it's actually some sort 483 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,920 of angelic creature that is able to do its strange motions. 484 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,400 It's only in the late eighteenth early nineteenth century that 485 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,480 you start having people trying to explain things with astronomy 486 00:27:57,839 --> 00:28:01,799 because the worst sorts of people in the world started 487 00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:07,559 emerging in Europe. Dius coming in and saying, hey, all 488 00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:10,480 that miracle stuff, we don't believe that We've got this 489 00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:13,920 thing called physics. Now, especially from Isaac Newton, we see 490 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,640 the universe works really well with them, and these miracle 491 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,440 stories don't. And so there's all these new versions of 492 00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:23,880 excusagenics that are developing at this time trying to combat 493 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,799 that problem and saying, hey, we think the Bible is true, 494 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,279 but we also believe the universe works on Newtonian physics, 495 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:34,000 because that's the universe that God has shown us and 496 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,319 because of our Lord and savior Isaac Newton, who was 497 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,000 born on December twenty fifth on the old British calendar. 498 00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:43,160 Funny enough, So how do you reconcile the two? Oh, 499 00:28:43,319 --> 00:28:46,799 we just misunderstood the story, or the readers or the 500 00:28:46,839 --> 00:28:50,440 writers of the story kind of misinterpreted for us. And 501 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,519 if we go back and think what really happened consistent 502 00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:57,400 with physics, Oh, it wasn't the case that, for example, 503 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,480 Jesus didn't walk on water What happened was it was 504 00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:03,200 a dark and stormy night. The disciples were being slushed 505 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,039 around on their boat and they were actually beached and 506 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:08,279 couldn't tell that that had happened. So when Jesus was 507 00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:11,480 walking along the shoreline, they thought, oh, my goodness, our 508 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:14,680 Lord and Savior is walking on water. Praise be. If 509 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,240 that sounds ridiculous, imagine repeating that thought process for every 510 00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:22,359 single miracle in the Bible, and repeat that, of course 511 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:25,759 for the birth stories as well. Is it ridiculous? We 512 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:28,440 think so now, But it was a popular idea until 513 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,400 basically the eighteen twenties. 514 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: We are talking about I'll call it the Dark Ages, 515 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:36,880 even though it's a thousand years before. But we didn't 516 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,759 know anything about anything. Really. We didn't know what germs were, etc. 517 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:43,279 And of course we certainly didn't understand our place in 518 00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:46,839 the cosmos. And this was a time where celestial deities 519 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,279 were a thing, right, I mean, we saw in fact, 520 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:52,119 many people, many mythesists, say that a lot of the 521 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,799 attributes of Jesus Christ to actually come out of previously 522 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,519 established celestial gods. So do you think the star was 523 00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:01,640 part of the I mean, when I ask you, do 524 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,759 you know anything about the Star of Bethlehem. I'm not stupid. 525 00:30:04,799 --> 00:30:07,400 He just held his book up. We've been friends for years. 526 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,880 I'm setting Aaron up to be able to answer the question. Okay, 527 00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:16,839 I'm not lying, but I am doing what a host does. 528 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,480 But let's talk about the celestial deities or that sort 529 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,400 of we'll call it superstition of the day. Was there 530 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,279 an obsession with stars? 531 00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: Oh? 532 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:30,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of belief in astrology, whether 533 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,480 it's to say what your fate is or that the 534 00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:37,000 gods are somehow trying to signal things. There are also, 535 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:41,119 for example, in the magical Papyrity from roughly the same 536 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,519 time as the Gospels are being written, very very roughly, 537 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,960 one of the incantations you could have is you could 538 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,519 basically call down one of the stars and it would 539 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:51,759 appear in front of you as basically a little god 540 00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:54,799 to do your commands. So you could literally wish on 541 00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:57,400 a star in that kind of way, and you were 542 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,960 given the instructions for how to do that. I haven't 543 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:02,119 gone out to test that recently to see if I'll 544 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:05,440 have any luck, but probably the case that the ancient 545 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,720 incantation isn't going to make Venus move around or a 546 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,359 comet to appear and do something ominous. Now, how much 547 00:31:13,359 --> 00:31:16,519 of this ultimately relates to the Jesus story. I want 548 00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:18,559 to note that there is a lot of material out 549 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:21,000 there on the Internet claiming that Jesus is like a 550 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:24,039 copy of Mythris or Cyrus or things like that, and 551 00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:27,920 the vast majority of the material is not reliable. Unfortunately, 552 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:31,440 if you want to take a mithesis position about Jesus, 553 00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:33,799 most of the material you're going to encounter out there 554 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,000 is going to put you in the wrong direction, so 555 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:40,920 most of it throw it away. But are there quote 556 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,759 unquote pagan connections between the story that we have about 557 00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:47,880 the star and Jesus. I'll give you one interesting example. 558 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:53,880 There are other guiding stars in grec Go Roman mythology. 559 00:31:54,279 --> 00:31:56,559 Lots of different figures were claimed to have been led 560 00:31:56,599 --> 00:31:59,559 by stars, and perhaps the most important and famous one 561 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:02,880 in Enius. Indius was supposed to been one of the 562 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,759 survivors of the city of Troy when it was destroyed, 563 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,599 and he and the remaining Trojans fled to Italy and 564 00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:14,160 established the city of Rome and then ultimately the Roman Empire. 565 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,880 According to the most famous rendition of this story was 566 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,839 called the Aeneid by Virgil. This is written during the 567 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,319 reign of Caesar Augustus late first century BCE as far 568 00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:30,319 as it's written, and it talks about a star appearing, 569 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,759 flashing over and helping them point them in the direction 570 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,279 of what their new homeland is going to be. And 571 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:41,000 our various sources tell us that yes, Venus or Aphrodite 572 00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:43,279 came in the form of a star and led the 573 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:48,519 Trojans to their new homeland. Venus was also the mother 574 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,680 of Aneas, so literally, divine Mama was the guiding star 575 00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:57,160 according to these stories, and a lot of connections then 576 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,960 between these group of people led by a bright star 577 00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:03,160 from the west to the east to find a new kingdom, 578 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,920 very similar to these magi from the east led by 579 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,000 a star to find their newborn king. Seems like the 580 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,319 connections are pretty clear. And we do know of one 581 00:33:11,559 --> 00:33:15,400 fourth century Christian woman who took the works of Eneas 582 00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:18,359 and actually pretty much like cut them up, rearrange them 583 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,039 to tell the story of Jesus and uses that guiding 584 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:23,960 star trope as the way of talking about the birth 585 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,880 story of Jesus. So I'm not the only one who's 586 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:26,559 made that connection. 587 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,839 Speaker 3: It's a good point that we need to be wary 588 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,240 of the Christ and other God's connections. We need to 589 00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:35,839 proceed cautiously. I remember watching Bill Maher's movie Religulous, and 590 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,079 there was the horrors connection that was claimed, and I'm like, whoa, whoa. Well, 591 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,599 you know, a lot of that comes from the film Zeitgeist, 592 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,559 and the Zeitgeist was a problematic documentary. Is this weird 593 00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:48,640 mix of some things that were true, but a lot 594 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,640 of things that were totally unsubstantiated are just wrong. And 595 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,119 yet in the meme verse it's hard to really sort 596 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,279 fact from fiction. I know that their Carrier and some 597 00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:02,359 others have made correlations between Christ and Romulus and Perseus. 598 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,880 You know, Jesus was not the first deity born of 599 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,039 a virgin. He was not the first dying and rising god. 600 00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:11,559 He wasn't even the first god to be crucified. Would 601 00:34:11,599 --> 00:34:14,199 you agree, Jesus nothing new. 602 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 2: Yes, there is a lot of the Jesus story that 603 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,960 you can see is the same or very similar in 604 00:34:21,039 --> 00:34:24,280 other mythologies. I also do want to note that you 605 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,519 mentioned Zeitgeist and one yeah, yeah, Deeze film is schist. 606 00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:32,159 So that's the German I used to talk about Zeitgeist 607 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,719 and it has its own attempt to also explain the 608 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,840 Star of Bethlehem story. And I mean, not only is 609 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,159 its ancient sourcing about what the alignments they claim means 610 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,239 are not well established, but I also checked with some 611 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,440 planetarium software to be really sure. But it doesn't even 612 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,360 get the astronomy right. It literally shows alignments that are 613 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,400 astronomically impossible. So if you want to know how bad 614 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,760 zeitgeist is, it can't even get physical facts correctly, so 615 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,199 you definitely know it's not going to get mythology all 616 00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:05,440 that great either. Now, conversely, are there stories of miraculous 617 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,360 births of divine heroes? Oh yeah, all over the world, 618 00:35:09,559 --> 00:35:12,760 well before the time of Christianity. Do those stories exist? 619 00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:16,440 Plenty of stories independent of Christianity develop their own stories 620 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,960 of miraculous births. And if you want to say it's 621 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,480 without sex, there are versions of that as well that 622 00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:23,719 kind of imply those sorts of things for the births 623 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,239 of important heroes. I think even Plato it talks about 624 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,960 basically a spirit like wishing in to give birth to him, 625 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,199 rather than the old fashioned methodology of how you bake 626 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,800 people people you know, coming back from the dead. Oh yeah, 627 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,320 plenty common there plenty of examples of that, the records 628 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,559 we have for Romulus, that there are supposed to be 629 00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:46,480 all these poor mortem sightings of him, including on the 630 00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:48,639 Way of Rhodes, and somehow not recognize him at first, 631 00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:50,320 and all of the sudden, oh goodness, I just realized 632 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,840 I bumped into my old buddy Romulus. Here we better 633 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,440 go and be virtuous as he just told us to do, 634 00:35:54,519 --> 00:35:57,000 because he's actually this super ancient god and now is 635 00:35:57,039 --> 00:35:59,760 giving us instructions how to build a great new empire. 636 00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:02,239 If that doesn't sound at least a little bit familiar, 637 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,199 you might want to go double check what your Bible says. 638 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,039 Speaker 3: We've got more to talk about with doctor Aaron Adair, 639 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,480 physicist and author of the book The Star of Bethlehem, 640 00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:21,039 a Skeptical View. Hang on. Thanks for being a supporter 641 00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:24,320 of this broadcast via Patreon. If you like what you 642 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,519 hear and you'd like to get the show commercial free 643 00:36:26,559 --> 00:36:28,679 in a couple of days early Mostly, if you just 644 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,039 want to be a supporter of the broadcast, thank you 645 00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:36,719 so much, go to patreon dot com slash Seth Andrews. 646 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:42,480 Continuing now my conversation with author and scientist and Nativity 647 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:48,599 story researcher doctor Aaron Adair. We'd like to talk a 648 00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:51,800 lot about that, leaning back into the Old Testament, Noah's ark. 649 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,360 Of course, in a thousand years before the epic of 650 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,679 guild commissions, so many parallels these Samerian myths, so many 651 00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:02,159 of them cousins and happily so it wasn't even plagiarism. 652 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:05,119 It's just like, well, my religion needs a flood myth, 653 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,320 and so they're sort of borrowed and changed and altered 654 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,800 and manicured to fit whatever deity is in question. I'm 655 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,840 going to give you an open canvas here. What else 656 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,360 about the Nativity story do you find interesting, relevant, alarming? 657 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:19,039 What do you got? 658 00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:23,159 Speaker 2: I'll start with the alarming. I mentioned that it was 659 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,840 up until like the eighteen twenties that it was popular 660 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,440 in biblical studies to try to rationalize the mythology away, 661 00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:31,679 to say, oh, they just misunderstood what they were seeing, 662 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,199 or we just totally misread this as miraculous. But the 663 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,360 thing is, even though biblical studies pretty much has dropped 664 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,039 this as an approach to studying these things for roughly 665 00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:46,079 two hundred years, it's still been rather popular in more 666 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:50,079 science or science popularization circles. If you go to a 667 00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:52,440 planetarium this time of year, especially here in the US 668 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,519 of A, you will almost certainly have a show that 669 00:37:55,559 --> 00:37:58,559 tries to describe Oh, here's how astronomy describes the story. 670 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,360 And to be alarming to you, how many of the 671 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,199 people working on that planetarium actually believe they show that 672 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,199 they are putting on And I can tell you it's 673 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,920 actually a minority. Most of them think it's bs and 674 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,760 they show it because it puts butts and seats and 675 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,960 it gives them a chance to talk about some astronomical topics. 676 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,800 I'm like, here are the winter constellations. Here's what it 677 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,400 looks like when planets move about. Here's what retrograde motion is. 678 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:24,360 Here's what comments are, Here's how they're different than supernov 679 00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:26,679 So you can talk a lot of science topics, but 680 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,320 what are people there for. They're here here to tell 681 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,920 us how science has proven how awesome Jesus is. So 682 00:38:33,159 --> 00:38:36,039 within the planetarium community, so they talk about the Star 683 00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:38,679 of Bethlehem in an interesting way, and I'll show you 684 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,559 by the cover. So I had gotten this book signed 685 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,079 by the Neil deGrasse Tyson some years ago, and he, 686 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,360 of course, you know, does the Hayden Planetarium there in 687 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,719 New York City. But he also pointed out something that 688 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:55,360 other planetarium operators have done circling soob yeah, that's how 689 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,559 we refer to it within the planetarium community. It's a 690 00:38:57,559 --> 00:39:00,480 son of a bee. That's the add for this. But 691 00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:02,920 yet we keep presenting it over and over again. Papers 692 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,960 still keep coming out claiming, oh, we've figured out how 693 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,760 astronomy explains it this time, and unfortunately know they haven't. 694 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:12,440 And the proof of that I provide in detail in 695 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,920 this book and other publications I have. Now what's interesting 696 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,280 is there are still things worth pursuing in this By that, 697 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,239 I mean, did the author of the story just you know, 698 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,599 have a fever dream one night and wrote this down 699 00:39:26,039 --> 00:39:29,280 or does he have some sort of previous source about 700 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,000 these kinds of things, and is his source even more 701 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,559 magical or mythological. That's something I'm exploring and working in 702 00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:41,280 publications suggesting the original story is even more supernatural than 703 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,960 the homing GPS beacon of the Star of Bethlhem. 704 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,280 Speaker 3: You're working on a book, what is that? 705 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,039 Speaker 2: So there are a couple of articles right now that 706 00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:52,199 are going through the peer review process as we speak, 707 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:55,599 touching on certain things, highlighting in particular one of our 708 00:39:55,639 --> 00:39:59,119 earliest interpreters of the Star of Bethlehem story that the 709 00:39:59,119 --> 00:40:01,960 way I read him, he's not actually treating this literally, 710 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,199 even though everyone thought he had for you know, a 711 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,800 long time. And then I realized, oh, if you kind of, 712 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,280 you know, look underneath what he's trying to say, he's 713 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,639 actually talking about this more mythological version of Jesus is 714 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,599 the Star. If you, for example, flip to Revelation, it says, well, 715 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,519 not only it says Jesus in the book where Revelation 716 00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:24,199 says I am the bright morning Star. And I think 717 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,880 some of that ideology is in the background of the 718 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,599 Star Bethlehem story, where it's not a homing beacon to 719 00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:33,840 find Jesus, the star is Jesus. 720 00:40:34,559 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 3: You got any final thoughts of punctuation mark for our 721 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,360 conversation about the Christmas holiday. 722 00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:43,079 Speaker 2: When you go and look at a Christmas tree this 723 00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:45,920 time of year, take a look at the topper of 724 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,719 that tree. It's probably either an angel or a star, 725 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,559 representing the Star of Bethlehem. And as much as I 726 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:55,559 wish that star were something that we could describe with 727 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,760 the tools of science and physics, it's better to understand 728 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,840 this story as created by craftsmanship with words than with 729 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,599 instruments of technology. And if we understand the story that way, 730 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,719 as storytelling rather than history making, You've got to understand 731 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,119 Christmas a lot better and not we so much time 732 00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:18,840 on things that aren't real. 733 00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 3: I'm an atheist who enjoys the Christmas holiday. It's just 734 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,000 what we call the holiday. I'm not threatened by the 735 00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:27,119 myth of Jesus or any of the other things, whether 736 00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:29,840 it's pagan or something else. And I think there are 737 00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:33,800 roughly a little under a dozen different holidays associated with 738 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,000 November three January. Knock yourself out. Christmas is what you 739 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:41,000 make it or skip it out right? And does that 740 00:41:41,039 --> 00:41:43,519 get weird? When I talk to some people, especially some 741 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:46,800 of the hardliner atheists out there, they're like, why in 742 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,159 the world would you do anything to commemorate or validate Jesus? 743 00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:54,679 You know that kind of thing. Do you can pushback 744 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,000 from that, Aaron. 745 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,159 Speaker 2: I don't get that too much, but I would say this, 746 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,440 the best way to push back against theocracy or the 747 00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:07,719 use of these tools for more nefarious ends is make 748 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,039 it something part of your own tradition that is not 749 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,599 actually religious. That's secular functionally. In so many ways, Christmas 750 00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:18,719 is already secular, and by you celebrating it in a 751 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,719 secular way, you are actually taking power away from the 752 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,800 theocrats who are trying to use it to bash them 753 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,599 over the head. If you can basically go and say 754 00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:30,159 I'm going to celebrate Christmas without having to sing hymns, 755 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,000 you are the one taking the power. You are powerful 756 00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:36,280 by being a Christmas lover without being a Christian. 757 00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 3: I do enjoy I'm not vocal about it, but I 758 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,559 do enjoy walking through the house of a devout Christian 759 00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:45,920 going non Christian tradition, not obviously pagan. I know that's 760 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,079 not anything to do with I mean, the best stuff 761 00:42:48,119 --> 00:42:52,000 about Christmas has nothing to do with the virgin birth 762 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,519 a super baby come to save the world from the 763 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,840 doom that that God created. Blah blah blah. I mean, 764 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,920 we're talking about gifts, music, and food and family and memories, 765 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,840 connection and you know, I mean, the best stuff about 766 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,159 Christmas has almost nothing to do with christ. I don't 767 00:43:09,159 --> 00:43:11,480 think that's an overreach, Aaron, do you. Oh? 768 00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:13,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely not. I mean, if you go and 769 00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:15,519 you look at a crash, most of the things in 770 00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:18,239 there aren't even from the Bible, they're from later traditions. 771 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,480 That there is a donkey and an ass. Sorry, there's 772 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,920 a donkey and an ox there that's actually in a 773 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,079 later tradition, and claiming, oh, this was also fulfilled prophecy. 774 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,119 That book also talks about Baby Jesus taming dragons, and 775 00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:35,320 I would love to see dragons as part of a 776 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,119 Nativity scene. Maybe next year. But yeah, it's so much 777 00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:42,920 of what we do these traditions is completely separate from 778 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,599 any religious orthodoxy. And also for the longest time, I 779 00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:50,480 should note I'm in the Boston area. This area used 780 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,639 to ban Christmas because it was too haughty. It was 781 00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:56,039 too much of a drunken festival of people going around 782 00:43:56,119 --> 00:43:58,840 knocking on doors of rich people demanding more food and alcohol. 783 00:43:59,119 --> 00:44:01,679 And if that's not a good winter time tradition, I 784 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:02,000 don't know. 785 00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 3: It is the faces of Christians when you tell them 786 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,039 that they live in the only nation on earth that 787 00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:10,960 has ever banned Christmas, or at least it was Massachusetts. 788 00:44:11,039 --> 00:44:13,559 I think at least yep, that's what you say, Hey, colony, 789 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,239 get back in the eighteen hundreds, and I just think, eh, 790 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,079 hashtag irony. Doctor Aaron Adair, hold your book up again, 791 00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:26,440 because I'm shameless. The Star of Bethlehem a skeptical view 792 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,559 which I will link in the description box. Always fun 793 00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:31,960 to talk to you. Thanks for helping us navigate through 794 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,880 and occasionally dissect the Nativity story, the activity myth, and 795 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,239 I hope you and yours have a wonderful holiday, my friend, Thank. 796 00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 2: You, and Merry Christmas to everyone. And if you're not 797 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,440 going to celebrate Christmas, be merry no matter what. This 798 00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:46,320 is a good time of year. 799 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,039 Speaker 1: Follow The Thanking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a 800 00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:53,679 complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and 801 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,400 t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist 802 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,119 pages and resources, and details on coming free thought events 803 00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:08,320 and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.