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True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:36.560 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:48.319 Good evening. On an October night in nineteen oh five, 32 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.439 a horrifying scene was found on a wooden vessel off 33 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.719 the coast of Cape Fear, North Carolina. On board the 34 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:59.079 Harry a Berwind, one crewman lay dead, his blood streaming 35 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.879 down the deck. The four officers were all gone, murdered too. 36 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.560 It would turn out, their bodies dumped into the sea. 37 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:10.039 Only three sailors remained alive, one tied up, all telling 38 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:14.039 different stories, all blaming each other. The three sailors were black, 39 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:18.639 the dead officers were white. So began a legal spectacle 40 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:21.719 that would captivate much of the nation's press and fuel 41 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:25.759 a sensational trial in Wilmington. It was in Wilmington, after all, 42 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.719 that shocking racial violence had occurred not long before, and 43 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:32.879 now the city remained in the clutches of white supremacists. 44 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:35.680 Most observers could have predicted a quick verdict and a 45 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:39.639 triple hanging, if not an even quicker lynching. Yet the 46 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.560 legal drama would defy predictions, lasting seven years, reaching the 47 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:48.240 Supreme Court, pulling in Presidents Teddy Roosevelt and William Howard Taft, 48 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.120 then eating twisted into a fanciful, big budget movie. In 49 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:56.120 the end, so many participants, from jurors to lawyers to politicians, 50 00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:01.080 acted against type that justice had a fighting chance. The 51 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:03.800 book that we're featuring this evening is Ship of Blood, 52 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:07.680 Mutiny and Slaughter Aboard the Harry A. Berwin and the 53 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:11.360 Quest for Justice, with my special guest, author and attorney 54 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.520 Charles Oldham. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 55 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:17.840 much for this interview. Charles Oldham, Well, thank you for 56 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.159 having me, Thank you so much, and congratulations on this 57 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:22.240 incredible tale. 58 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:22.759 Thanks. 59 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:26.719 Let's as you do in the book, you introduced this 60 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:30.520 area Cape Fear, North Carolina. We all know about the 61 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.199 movie and the remake of the movie starring Robert de Niro. 62 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:36.080 Just tell us a little bit more about Cape Fear 63 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:37.960 as you introduce this story. 64 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.439 Okay, well, for anyone who's not not familiar with North Carolina, 65 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:45.840 and I am because this is this is the area 66 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:49.199 where I grew up. Really, but these days, anyone who's 67 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.919 familiar with Wilmington and the Brunswick County area, which is 68 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.439 where Cape Peer actually is, these days, it's the beach. 69 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:03.080 It's a tourist community and that's what that's what all 70 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:06.280 of all of life evolves around the beach and seafood 71 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:10.039 restaurants and sailing races and that type of thing, which 72 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:12.599 is great. It's a wonderful place to vacation, wonderful place 73 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:14.560 to live too. But I mean, for this story, we 74 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:16.040 kind of have to we have to go back in 75 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:19.439 time more than one hundred years, because the case happened 76 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.240 in the year nineteen oh five. And yeah, back in 77 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:26.040 those days, it was you know, life was hard in 78 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:29.600 rural North Carolina. Back in that time, it was a 79 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:34.480 pretty pretty hard struggle place to live. And Southport Cape 80 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.800 Fear was a very small, you might say, shipping and 81 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:41.759 fishing village where you know, everything revolved around the shipping 82 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:46.319 industry and fishing, fishing that type of thing, and life 83 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.720 was difficult, and the people people back then were very 84 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:52.519 very hard folks. You might say, they had a lot 85 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:54.160 of They had to deal with a lot of struggles 86 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:57.399 in their daily lives, and politics reflected that at the 87 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.839 same time, early nineteen hundreds were a very very tumultuous 88 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.360 time in politics of the area back in those days. 89 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.040 And that's that's also what I try to convey in 90 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:07.399 the book. 91 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:11.519 Let's get to October tenth, nineteen oh five, and you 92 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.560 talk about a four masted schooner, the Blanche A. H. 93 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:16.000 King. 94 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.279 Tell Us set the stage as you do with Captain 95 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.360 John Taylor, eight officers and crew. What happens October tenth, 96 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:24.160 nineteen oh five. 97 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:28.399 Well, the Blanche King, the sailing ship that you mentioned, 98 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:31.360 was sailing along just off the coast of North Carolina, 99 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:36.920 not for kick Fear, roughly twenty five miles offshore. They 100 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:40.319 were on their way to Philadelphia, carrying a load of 101 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:43.240 a load of lumber on board, and they happened to 102 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.680 come across another another vessel sort of in the same 103 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:51.439 shipping path that was also headed towards Philadelphia, and that 104 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:53.800 ship was known as the Harry A. Berwin. It's kind 105 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.199 of interesting because sailing vessels back then, commercial vessels typically 106 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:02.759 were named after people, usually former ship captains or businessmen, 107 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:05.639 officers in shipping companies and that type of thing. So 108 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.920 the names of these these vessels were not particularly creative. 109 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:12.600 They were just they were just named after people. But anyway, 110 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:14.639 the uh I was just called it. The King and 111 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.480 the Berwin. The King was sailing the Lawn and they 112 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:20.759 came across the Berwind, another vessel of very similar size 113 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.639 and the size and dimensions, and the officers on board 114 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:28.879 the King noticed that the Berwind was sailing pretty erratically. 115 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:33.079 They were kind of zigging, zagging, batting forth, and they 116 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.439 didn't have their sails furled properly, and it was just 117 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:39.360 it appeared like there was something to miss on board 118 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:42.040 the Berwin, And so the King they drew up, drew 119 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:47.360 up alongside the other ship, and they came within hailing distance, 120 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:49.279 and the guys on board the King shouted out in 121 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.360 Berwin and said, hey, what's wrong, And somebody shouted back 122 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:54.839 from Berwin said we want to be taken off this 123 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:57.839 ship because a man has gone crazy and he's killed 124 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.120 all of the officers on board the ship. So when 125 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.399 the fellows on board of the King got into their lifeboat, 126 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.560 they'll call it, and they went over to the other ship. 127 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:10.000 They found a bloody scene. There was at least one 128 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:12.839 man who was lying dead on board the deck of 129 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.560 the ship, and there were four others the officers on 130 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:17.720 board the ship, who were also deceased. They had been 131 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:19.879 shot and killed and their bodies had. 132 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:20.600 Been tossed overboard. 133 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.120 So what they came across was essentially a mass murder scene. 134 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:27.120 What did they do as a result, You say, what 135 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.439 did they exactly find? You say, is they found the 136 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.240 bloody scene, but they had they experienced something right away 137 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:37.439 that they noticed with someone being tied up. So tell 138 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:40.040 us what the exchange was and what they did witness. 139 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.399 Yeah, that's true. Originally, on board the Burwind there had 140 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:48.079 been eight men on board, four officers and four other 141 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:51.720 guys whom I will call lower decks sailors, and all 142 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:54.279 four of the officers were missing. It turned out that 143 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:56.800 they had been shot and killed and thrown overboard, and 144 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.160 of the four sailors, one of them also was lying dead. 145 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.639 They found his body on the dead ship. One of 146 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:06.319 them also had been tied up bound hand and foot 147 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:09.120 by the other two guys who were still alive. And 148 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:12.759 walking around. So it was clear that someone had obviously 149 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:17.040 committed some committed some murders, although it wasn't entirely clear 150 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:19.879 at first who had done what because there were three 151 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:23.199 three people remaining alive on board the ship, and they 152 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.759 started telling different stories, blaming each other as to who 153 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:27.040 did what. 154 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.839 Okay, so two of the people once Arthur Adams, and 155 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:34.360 another one is named Sawyer Robert, and the person tied 156 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:38.360 up is named Henry Scott. Yes, so what do Adams 157 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.559 and Sawyer have to say about what happened? 158 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:45.879 Well, they immediately blamed everything on Henry Scott. They claimed 159 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:50.519 that Henry Scott had smuggled some weapons on board the ship, 160 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.960 and they said that this came as a complete surprise 161 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.960 to them. But they claimed that Henry Scott decided that 162 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.840 he was going to kill all the officers on board 163 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.840 the and take over the vessel. And they claimed that 164 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.679 that is what Henry Scott seeded to do. He pulled 165 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:07.840 out his weapons and he went and hunted down each 166 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:10.200 of the offers one by one shot and killed him 167 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.240 and threw them overboard. And at the same time they 168 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.200 claimed that Henry Scott had held them under the gun, 169 00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:18.840 claiming that he would kill them, Adams and Sawyer if 170 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.600 they did not cooperate with it. And they claimed that 171 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:24.279 that went on for several hours, and it was not 172 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.000 until later that they were able to seize the opportunity 173 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.159 to tackle mister Scott and beat him down and take 174 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:33.039 his guns away from him and tie him up. And 175 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:36.879 in the process the Scott apparently had shot and killed 176 00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:39.000 one of the other sales whose name was Cokeley, and 177 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.200 he was the one who was lying dead on board 178 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:43.879 on the deck. That was their story, as you might imagine, 179 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:46.799 Henry Scott, the other fellow, told a different story. 180 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:48.879 What was a different story that he had. 181 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.279 Well, mister Scott, as you might imagine, blamed it on 182 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.080 all the other guys. He claimed that Adams and Sawyer 183 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:57.919 and Copley actually were the ones who brought guns on 184 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.840 board the ship, and Scott claimed he was innocent of that. 185 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.799 And mister Scott claimed that the other three guys were 186 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.679 the ones who conspired together to do the very same thing, 187 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:11.399 kill all the officers take control of the ship. And 188 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.399 Scott he essentially, as you might say, he flipped the 189 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:17.440 script on the other three guys. He claimed that they 190 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.559 came up with the idea of seizing the vessel, maybe 191 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:23.399 taking it into port and trying to claim that the 192 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.679 officers had drowned in a storm or something like that, 193 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:28.840 and they might use this as a way to try 194 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.159 to collect a reward from the shipping company for having 195 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:36.679 salvaged the ship or something like that. And mister Scott, 196 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.320 as you might imagine, also claimed that when he objected 197 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.360 to this plan, that the other guys decided to tagle 198 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.000 him and tie him down and so forth. So it 199 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:47.799 was basically two guys against one telling completely different stories 200 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:48.600 about what happened. 201 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.440 Now you say that Captain Taylor that was in charge 202 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:55.559 of the king, he certainly wasn't a detective or law enforcement, 203 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:58.960 so he had all three handcuffed. He couldn't sort out 204 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:01.679 who was guilty of war, so he did it, played 205 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.799 it safe and had these people handcuffed, and then escorted 206 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:08.720 it into Wilmington. I believe from there what happens in 207 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.919 terms of law enforcements involvement. 208 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.759 Well, they escorted the bur Wind into the nearest port, 209 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.600 which was actually Southport, North Carolina, which is a small 210 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:20.240 small town which is just at the mouth of the 211 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.639 Cape Fear River, just a short distance down river from Wilmington, 212 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:27.399 which is the major major city in the area. But 213 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.519 you're correct, I mean they all both ships were then 214 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:36.080 taken into South Fork and Captain Taylor from the King 215 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:38.519 then turned all three of those guys over to the 216 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:41.840 custody of federal marshals in the area because it was 217 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.240 a it was a federal case. It was a mutiny 218 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:46.519 and a mass murders that took place on board the 219 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:48.799 on the on the high seas, So essentially it turned 220 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:53.399 into a federal mutiny and murder prosecution, which and the 221 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:57.279 trial was held in Wilmington, North Carolina just a few 222 00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:57.960 weeks afterwards. 223 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:02.480 You eventually talk of what is at play at this 224 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.519 preliminary that starts in nineteen oh five. We alluded to 225 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:10.360 it in the introduction about what happened in eighteen ninety 226 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:15.559 eight in Wilmington, and obviously this trial is it is 227 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.559 influenced by what happened in eighteen ninety eight and all 228 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:23.000 of the events and the environment and atmosphere that occurred 229 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.159 before nineteen oh five. So now there's a media at 230 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:30.279 play here and the phenomena of people that are interested 231 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.159 in this case. Tell us about all of that backdrop 232 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:34.639 to this preliminary trial. 233 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.000 Well, it was a very auspicious time because this was 234 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:39.600 in nineteen oh five when these murders took place. And 235 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.080 the critical factor is that these three men, these three 236 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.480 sailors who were put on trial for these murders, all 237 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.080 three of them were of African descent. And as it 238 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:51.000 turned out, all four of the officers on board the 239 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:54.279 Berwin who were murdered were white men. So three black 240 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.879 guys put on trial for murdering four white men. And 241 00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:59.679 this was in Wilmington, North Carolina, in nineteen oh five, 242 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.080 And we have to take account of, as you said, 243 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.480 what happened in Wilmington in eighteen ninety eight. This is 244 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:06.840 a story that has gotten a lot of coverage in 245 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:10.320 recent years from historians and the press because it was 246 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.759 a very shocking event which was really didn't get a 247 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:15.919 lot of coverage for a long time, which is unfortunate. 248 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:19.159 It's only within the past twenty years so that people 249 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.480 have really become aware of what we now call the 250 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:25.679 eighteen ninety eight insurrection at Wilmington. But the long short 251 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:29.000 of it is that in eighteen ninety eight, Wilmington was 252 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:33.039 a multi racial city, and very unusual for the South 253 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:36.120 in those days. It had a multi racial government that 254 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:39.639 had been elected in the say, the mid mid eighteen nineties. 255 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.559 Around eighteen ninety four, they had black people and white 256 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:46.360 people both serving in the city government. And things really 257 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:49.240 came to ahead in eighteen ninety eight when something called 258 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:53.159 the white supremacist movement spread across North Carolina. The Democratic Party, 259 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:56.240 which was a completely different institution back then from what 260 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:01.039 we know it as today, was staunchly white premises, and 261 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.720 in the eighteen ninety eight campaign, they really carved upon 262 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:07.159 racial issues as a means of seizing control of the 263 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:10.320 state government. And I hate to I try to be 264 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:12.919 delicate in the way that I described this, because it's 265 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.519 so easy to give offense sometimes, but the campaign that 266 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.679 they ran was absolutely brutal. They spread all kinds of 267 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:23.399 rumors about black government officials praying on white women and 268 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.200 that type of thing, and warning about the perils of 269 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.480 what they call negro domination in state government. Again, I 270 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:34.159 apologize to even use language like this, but that's those 271 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.960 were the dynamics of the situation. But again, to a 272 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:38.960 kind of cut to the chase, in eighteen ninety eight, 273 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:43.399 these white supremacist Democrats took complete control of North Carolina, 274 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:46.279 state government in that election, and as a result of 275 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:49.559 that in Wilmington, there was a very It led to 276 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:53.639 a very very bloody situation in which the local white 277 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:57.200 supremacists they decided they were going that when the election 278 00:14:57.320 --> 00:15:01.480 was not enough, they were going to see physical control 279 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.120 of the city government by killing people. And that's what happened. 280 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.159 They staged and an armed insurrection in the city where 281 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.559 they physically evict the white people and a lot of 282 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:15.519 the blacks who had been involved in the city government, 283 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.559 and they marched through the streets with guns and they 284 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.720 went about killing people. They were probably about about sixty 285 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.159 people who ended up lying dead in the streets as 286 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.919 a result of that. It really was a bloody governmental 287 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.879 coupe tap probably the only, the only documented case where 288 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.200 that has actually happened in the United States. It's a 289 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:36.519 very very regretful thing for anyone who's from North Carolina 290 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.879 to know about. And that's why that's unfortunately why the 291 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:42.600 story remained hidden for so long. A lot of just 292 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:44.799 didn't we didn't learn about it in high school because 293 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:47.879 it's so so shameful. But as a result of that, 294 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:51.120 in eighteen ninety eight, Wilmington, North Carolina, was a completely 295 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.159 the governmental institutions, the courts, everything was completely dominated by 296 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.840 white supremacists. And therefore that was the environment that these 297 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.279 three black guys facing when they were put on trial 298 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.320 murdering these white men in nineteen oh five. 299 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:05.559 You also talk about that it was said that they 300 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.120 would have two separate trials, that Adams and Adam Lawyer 301 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:11.799 and would both have would have a separate trial as 302 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:14.440 opposed to Henry Scott. But the thing is that the 303 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.480 dynamics of those both of those trials would be that 304 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.120 Scott would be the star witness in the Adams and 305 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.960 Stewart trial and that the and vice versa, Adams and 306 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.279 would be witness at the Scott trial. So other than that, 307 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:34.919 who if anyone is there to represent talk about the 308 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:39.480 representation of Adams and his partner and Henry Scott. 309 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:41.480 Well, the interesting thing is, and you're correct, I mean 310 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.879 there were two trials. Adams and Sawyer were tried together 311 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.200 because they were telling the same story, they were blaming Scott, 312 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.279 and then Scott was tried separately because it was just 313 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.720 the opposite. Scott was alleging that Adams and Sawyer were 314 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:59.080 the killers. So yes, there were two separate trials. One 315 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.639 right after the other, and total three defendants. And one 316 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.559 thing that is surprising to me is that all three 317 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.839 of them had defense attorneys and they what's what's really 318 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:13.119 ironic is that the defense attorneys who were appointed by 319 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:15.960 the court were guys who were who came from the 320 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.720 white establishment in Wilmington and whose families were staunched Democrats, 321 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.960 and they had relatives who were actually involved in the 322 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.799 events of the insurrection in eighteen ninety eight, in fact, 323 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:27.680 they had been leaders of it. And yet here they 324 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:30.039 were being appointed to represent these black guys in court. 325 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.680 And what's really surprising is that they actually did their jobs. 326 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.200 They did not strike from the responsibility of representing these 327 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.799 fellows and filing the appropriate motions, and I mean they 328 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:42.920 did the best they could in court. I mean, given 329 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.400 the deck that was stacked against them, because they were 330 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.079 these guys were they were put on trial in federal court, 331 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.799 and the juries were called from taxpayer roles of and 332 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:55.240 the jurors, as you might imagine, we're all white men 333 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:58.480 from eastern North Carolina, and so I mean they were 334 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.200 they had the deck stacked against from the very beginning. 335 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:05.240 But despite all of that, the trial procedures we were followed, 336 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.240 the law was followed, and it was the trial. The 337 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.880 trial presision was very deliberate and calm and professional, which 338 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:16.480 is not exactly what you might expect. The verdicts were 339 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:19.160 what you probably would expect, but I was rbally surprised 340 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.480 by the sense of quorum in the court room was 341 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:25.920 actually quite pretty pretty calm and professional. 342 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.240 You you write about the participation of the press and 343 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:33.880 its influence. What did the press consider after hearing the 344 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:37.440 very what you write, very very consistent testimony right from 345 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.880 the very beginning and continuing to trial on Adams and 346 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:42.359 uh and Slawyer. 347 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.279 Well, it's just a little bit of the background. Adams 348 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.880 and Sawyer were put on trial first, and Scott was 349 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.519 the primary witness against them, and so the prosecutor, he 350 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:56.319 I get the sense that he really wanted to He 351 00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:58.480 just wanted to get this over with quickly as possible. 352 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.359 He wanted to try all three of them, and he 353 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.039 wanted to get death sentences against all three of them 354 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.319 and then and be done with it. So the prosecutor, 355 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.839 when he put Adam and Sawyer on trial first, he 356 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.960 simply brought in Scott to take the stand and give 357 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.720 his given his testimony and then Adams and Sawyer took 358 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:19.400 the stand on their own behalf told their story, and 359 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.759 people noted that Adams and Sawyer in particular, they were 360 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.160 very concisient in stories that they told. They seemed calm 361 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.400 and sincere and so forth. So a lot of the 362 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.279 press the moment were actually pressed with adamson Sawyer. Despite that, 363 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:32.559 they were found guilty and they were immediately sentenced to death. 364 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.799 After that trial concluded, and the trial of Adams and 365 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.480 Sawyer took about three days. About a half hour after 366 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.240 that trial concluded, they simply started the second trial Scott's. 367 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.079 They just declared the recess. Thirty minutes later. They filled 368 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:48.240 the jury box twelve more people and they started the 369 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.119 second trial. And then the prosecutor then brought in Adams 370 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.000 and Sawyer to be his witnesses to testify against Scott, 371 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.279 despite the fact that the same prosecutor had just gotten 372 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:01.599 death sentences against them only hours before. Yeah, they now 373 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.119 became his witness They took stand, told the very same 374 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:06.480 story that they had in their own trial. They said 375 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.240 Scott did it. And then you know, Scott took the stand, 376 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:12.440 told his story again in his own defense. This time 377 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:14.599 he also was found guilty and sentence to death. So 378 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.680 it was I mean, the whole thing was I said 379 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:19.640 this a moment ago, that the trial process was very 380 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:24.079 deliberate and calm, probably a little too much so, because 381 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.559 there was just a sense that all the all the 382 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:28.440 attorneys just wanted to get it over and done with, 383 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.920 and the judge wanted to be sure that he followed 384 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:33.480 all the all the rules, dotted all the eyes and 385 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.319 crossed all the t's, and so that he wouldn't be 386 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:40.200 overturned on appeal. Probably, But I mean, the trials were 387 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.720 obviously a rush job, and the verdicts and the sentences 388 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.000 were no surprise and given the given the whole black 389 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.000 white dynamics of the thing. But what was surprising is 390 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:52.559 that a lot of the people, the people in the 391 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.720 courtroom and especially press in Wilmington who were reporting on this, 392 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:59.519 they actually listened to what these people were saying in 393 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.480 court and they were really impressed with Addatant Sawyer. They 394 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:05.839 sounded sincere and I hate to use the languige they 395 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:08.559 used in print. They called them like a simple minded, 396 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.400 which is a racially loaded term, but they meant it 397 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.720 as a compliment sort of, because they sounded honest, and 398 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.839 it sounded like they were telling the truth, whereas they 399 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.279 noted that this guy Scott, on the other hand, was 400 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:22.640 he seemed really slit and evasive, and again this is 401 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:24.839