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That's ZipRecruiter 53 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:20.039 dot com, slash murder, m u r d R ZipRecruiter 54 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:30.000 dot com slash murder. Beachgoers usually dread riptides and rainy days, 55 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:34.240 but from nineteen seventy four to nineteen eighty three, a 56 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:38.560 different fear gripped in New Jersey Shore, young women were disappearing. 57 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:43.400 Their abductor was Richard Biegenwald, a man released for good 58 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:47.159 behavior after serving seventeen years in prison for murder and 59 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:51.680 spending time in a psychiatric facility. Police arrested him on 60 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:54.759 suspicion of rape, and it was not until they connected 61 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:57.199 him to a woman's death in Asbury Park that he 62 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:02.159 finally stopped his rampage. Investigators later linked him to nine 63 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.400 murders and convicted him of five. Former New Jersey State 64 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:10.680 Trooper John O'Rourke narrates the chilling story of the Jersey 65 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:14.000 Shore thrill Killer. The book that we're featuring this evening 66 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:18.600 is The Jersey Shore thrill Killer Richard Biegenwald with my 67 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:25.639 special guest, retiredy New Jersey State trooper and author John E. O'Rourke. 68 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:28.000 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 69 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:30.959 this interview. John O'Rourke. 70 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:34.279 Well, thank you, Dan for having me on. 71 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:38.519 Thank you so much for bringing us this incredible tale. 72 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:44.920 Let's talk about Let's talk about how you came to 73 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.920 be involved with this story and why you felt it 74 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:52.319 you were compelled to write The Jersey Shore threll Killer. 75 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:57.839 Well, the writing of this story actually has its origins 76 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:05.160 in my first two books I started writing, and they 77 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.399 were based on the New Jersey State Police troopers that 78 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:10.000 died in a line of duty. And after they came out, 79 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:13.600 I was having lunch with a colleague and a mentor 80 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:15.319 of mine and I had mentioned that, you know, I 81 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.720 had the desire to write additional books. The first two 82 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.160 books were kind of like I didn't wasn't really looking 83 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:23.800 at myself as an author. I just wanted to pay 84 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:25.560 tribute to the troopers who died in a line of duty. 85 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:29.319 And the publisher just basically sliced the two books into 86 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.360 the one book into two. So it was it was 87 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:36.680 it was a project that not even consider myself an 88 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.759 author at the time, but I had, you know, doing 89 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:42.639 that and doing the research. I actually had the itch 90 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.319 to write more and I'm a history book and I 91 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:46.720 saw I said to him, I said, you know, I 92 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:48.800 want to write about history, and he said, you can't 93 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:52.360 do that, and I was like, well why not. He says, well, 94 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.600 you know, it's hard to break into the true crime 95 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.959 uh genre, and you did it a publisher and now 96 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:02.879 you need to stay in that until you know your 97 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:05.000 self established. So that kind of put me on me 98 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:08.639 on the path to true crime. I never really looked 99 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.600 when I was writing a book of that being true crime, 100 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:14.319 because it was just more of yeah, it was crime 101 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:16.120 that you know, took a lot of the troopers' lives. 102 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.959 But I didn't really again, you got it, I wasn't 103 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:21.160 thinking in terms of an author at that time. I 104 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.360 was kind of glean So it took me a while 105 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:27.480 and it's okay, So I need to break into, you know, 106 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.920 to break in, I got actually research on what I'm 107 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:32.959 going to do next. So I started looking at serial killers, 108 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:38.319 and my research revealed that every time I would look 109 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:42.160 at a book on serial killers, the name Richard Biegenwold 110 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:44.959 would would pop up. Sometimes it would be just a 111 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:48.120 line or two, other times it would be a paragraph 112 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:50.759 or so, and then several other times it would be 113 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:54.959 a couple of pages. So I looked into that and said, okay, 114 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.800 he's obviously someone that's always he's noteworthy, he's been mentioned, 115 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:01.639 has anyone written about it? And then you know that 116 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.240 was the final to check off. No one had written 117 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:05.600 about it. So I said, okay, I'm going to start 118 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:10.680 researching about Richard Biegenwald and b the narrative manuscript together 119 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:10.920 to that. 120 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:17.319 Now you take us in the book to December eighteenth 121 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:22.240 and nineteen fifty eight, and tell me if I'm mispronouncing this. 122 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:28.240 It's Bayonne, New Jersey baone correct, Yes, Bayonne, okay, in 123 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:32.360 New Jersey, Upper New York Bay. And one of the 124 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:37.600 notable things is the Bayonne Bridge ferries transporting people across 125 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:40.480 the waterrays into New York, Staten Island and New Jersey. 126 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:47.560 And this is of course Christmas time, in Christmas time 127 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.240 in the city of by Own. And you say, you 128 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:54.279 talk of the time that America was in Nasau was 129 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:58.959 just created that year President Eisenhower was in power. And 130 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.079 you profile a person named Stephen Sladowski, a forty seven 131 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:06.120 year old with the wife and four kids. Tell us 132 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:11.279 who Stephen Sladowski is and about his other business other 133 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.639 than being a prosecutor. 134 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.040 Well, Stephen Sladowski was a notable member of the city 135 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:23.759 of Bayone. He was a prosecutor, and he was an 136 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:28.720 attorney in town, and he ended up purchasing a small 137 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:31.879 business in town. So what I what I tried to 138 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.159 do is when you had mentioned that when I opened 139 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:36.879 the book and I got the Upper New York Bay 140 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.000 with the Bayone Bridge in the backg I kind of 141 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:43.399 because this story kind of plays out like almost like 142 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.039 a movie, So I kind of laid out the narrative 143 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.519 kind of so you can put a visual on the 144 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:52.440 environment that was taking place at the time, so you 145 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:55.600 can you can put in context what what it was 146 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.639 like in Bayonne at the time and the events that 147 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:04.840 were unfolding when mister Sadowski lived there, and so I 148 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:06.840 opened it up. He and his wife they were getting 149 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:10.320 to the point he was very successful in town, and 150 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:12.240 they were getting to the point in their life that 151 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:14.320 they were thinking about slowing down a little bit. So 152 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:16.840 they opened up a business, thinking that that would probably 153 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:19.840 be the family business once he gave up as a 154 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:24.200 prosecutor and started slowing down with his law firm, and 155 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.639 it was. It was a pretty successful business that they had. 156 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.279 And that was a place that when we first or 157 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.240 introduced to Richard Bieganwalters, he he targets that place. So 158 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:42.200 I kind of place, if you will a visual try 159 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:46.240 to painting in words of Sladowski on that side of 160 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.519 the river and then across the kill van call you 161 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:51.679 got this other person. And I don't know if I 162 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:53.440 want to get if I'm getting ahead of myself with 163 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.519 with your outline. Uh, But then you know, with Richard Biganwald, 164 00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:59.000 So I kind of opened it up on that day 165 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:03.120 with the two are doing in the let's talk. 166 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.440 Let's talk about Sladowski and his family and this and 167 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.639 this store. And you talked about this being this being 168 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:13.320 a prominent person and being a prosecutor and a friend 169 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:16.919 and he's living in a building and there's a person 170 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.840 named Capusta upstairs that's the the landlord of this building 171 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:23.559 and has known him for years. So talk about what 172 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:28.360 happens in the store. Then we can introduce Uh began 173 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:32.519 Wald and like you say, a completely different background to 174 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:34.600 say the least yep. 175 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:41.120 So Stephen Slatowski went about his day. It was coming 176 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.120 up on the holiday season, so there was a lot 177 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:46.080 of decorations and a lot of preparations for the upcoming 178 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:51.720 holiday spiritual high friends were popping in saying hello, and 179 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:58.159 he was going about his day. And then later on 180 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:02.200 that evening, as they were getting ready to close up, 181 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.720 there was only another his business partner of another attorney 182 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.960 was in the store with him. Uh, and he did. 183 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:15.879 They were unaware that Richard big Wald and his accomplished 184 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:19.320 were outside casing the place, so once the business owner 185 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:24.639 had left, they came in and they robbed the place. However, 186 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:26.960 I think I I think I make it clear in 187 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:30.120 the narrative that it was under the guise of a robbery. 188 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.799 I don't know if if Richard bigger Wald was was 189 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:40.600 actually aware of his emotional motives at that point, but 190 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:44.799 it was more of a killing in mind than an 191 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:50.320 actual robbery. I think he had the desire for a killing, 192 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:54.000 and for some reason, Steven Slodowski was the person that 193 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:59.399 he was going to to kill. Uh. Some people speculate, 194 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.399 although there's no proof to it, that he had once 195 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:06.559 prosecuted a case that Richard Bingerwald was involved in. I 196 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:10.320 had through my research I found nothing. That doesn't mean 197 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:13.759 it doesn't exist. It's a long time ago, but for 198 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:18.879 whatever reason, Richard Bgerwald targeted Slodowski as his first victim. 199 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:23.679 Let's talk about the partnership that does end up in 200 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:28.799 the murder of Sladowski. And you also talk about him 201 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.600 being shot in the face and murdered in his store, 202 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:38.360 and then the getaway driver Spornraft, Jimmy Spornoff, and when 203 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.440 they got into the car there was shots fired back 204 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.559 at the store. He also mentioned the idea that there was. 205 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.159 It seemed that he left the cash register alone but 206 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:53.440 took the man's wallet. And so if robbery was the motive, 207 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:59.159 then it seemed to be not really executed. And given 208 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.039 that that was the most motive for the murder in itself, 209 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:08.480 tell us about this partnership between Jimmy Spornoff and began Wald. 210 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:12.639 How they met and what were they looking for that evening? 211 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:14.840 Tell us a little bit about their partnership. 212 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:20.879 Well, that's that's interesting. That's an interesting part that I 213 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:24.320 came across during my research. I actually was able to 214 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:30.840 reach out and identify James spawn Rocks where he was living. 215 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:32.399 I reached out to him and he was willing to 216 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:37.360 actually get interviewed for the book. So the accounts of 217 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:45.080 that night were taken right from uh Sparunroff himself, keeping 218 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:51.919 in mind that there is probably some revisionist history on 219 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:59.519 his part or or or misremembering on his part. They met. 220 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:01.600 He was a city kid, there was they were Staten 221 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.600 Island kids. They met. It was a small circle of 222 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:09.840 friends in Staten, Ireland he met Uh. He said he 223 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:14.080 was more of a colleague than a friend. But the 224 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:17.720 narrative and and and obviously the research indicated that they 225 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:19.840 were a little bit more than colleagues. They were hanging 226 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.759 out together on a on a regular basis. So I 227 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:28.159 think that was James's way of kind of distancing himself 228 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.600 to the event that actually took place on the December night. 229 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:38.759 But bigan Waldh was a was a bright kid. He 230 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.759 he was not large and statute. I think he was 231 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:47.720 about five eight, and somehow him in and Sparanwoff began 232 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.480 hanging out. He was as small you look at the 233 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.240 illustrations the pictures in the book, Sparnawolf was a small, 234 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:59.919 kind of a nerdy looking kid with with thick you know, glasses. 235 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.919 However he was he was. He was a tough city boy. 236 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:06.399 One pitch actually illustrates when with the one guy touching 237 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:09.039 his arm out you can see the anger in in 238 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:15.240 Sprunoff's uh face, So they were kind of suited for 239 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:20.159 one another. I think spru Sprunoff was aware of the 240 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:25.759 the criminal activity that Big World was was wanted to 241 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:29.240 take part in, and his actions prepping for the burglary 242 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:35.279 with acquiring a shotgun, throwing that shotgun the barrel of it, 243 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:38.519 turning it into a sort of shotgun underneath a bridge 244 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:41.600 in Staten Island. He certainly was aware of what they 245 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.240 were about to do. I don't think he was aware 246 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.600 that Big World was going to kill the guy. I 247 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:50.200 think he thought they were going to rob the place, 248 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:54.360 So I do think that he is he It was 249 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.799 it was shocking to see that he actually had come 250 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.120 out of the store shooting and he had killed the guy. 251 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:10.960 However, however, though the regardless of when you say that 252 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.080 that he didn't realize it was going to be a murder, 253 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:18.279 you write that he was shocked when Beigenwald showed him 254 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.960 the newspaper and then the headlines about murder, and then 255 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.320 he said, listen, I didn't do anything, and Biegenwald said, 256 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:28.279 you're in the same boat as me. Now at that 257 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:33.519 point though, you would think that maybe he would have 258 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:39.200 his regrets of assisting Beigenwald. But what happens with this 259 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:43.919 partnership after this near getaway you talk about shooting up 260 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:48.159 the store, they get away on this ferry, they dumped 261 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.559 the automobile despite witnesses seeing the car and getting the 262 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:57.360 license plate number and having a description of Beigenwald as well. 263 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:02.879 What do this duo do together and what do they 264 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.839 plan and what is born Roth's contribution to it? 265 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.200 Well, following the following day when when when you know, 266 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.319 when that incident hits the paper, uh spun off his 267 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:18.720 approach with Big World and just exactly what you said, 268 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.559 you know, he he's like, oh, I had nothing to 269 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:23.480 do with this, and and big a World like, no, 270 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:25.799 you're you're you're you're in it. Just like cong in it. 271 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.640 They the old saying is not what you did that 272 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.599 gets you, you know, gets you in trouble, although it's 273 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.359 what you do about what you did. If he would 274 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:36.359 have maybe turned himself and saying, hey, listen, I drove 275 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:37.799 this guy to the store and I thought he's going 276 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.000 to put back the cigarettes, it would have been a 277 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.279 pretty weak defense because he helped them, you know, do 278 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.519 the shotgun. But if if you would have stepped away 279 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:47.000 from it and saying, hey, I had no idea he 280 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.720 was going to, you know, shoot the guy, he might 281 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.839 have got a less of sentence. But he chose to flee. 282 00:17:55.400 --> 00:18:01.880 They they so they fled to south, traversing the turnpike 283 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.960 and then went into the state of Maryland. And it's 284 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:10.240 in the state of Maryland that this crime spray if 285 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:14.720 you will, continues. They are observed by a local police officer, 286 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:20.599 Officer Hymen of the Salisbury Police I believe I'm pronouncing 287 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:27.599 that correct, sees them pulling into town. They committed a 288 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:33.359 minor motor vehicle fraction, but I'm sure their reaction to 289 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.079 his presence is probably also what stimulated him to stop 290 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:40.920 the motor vehicle. Upon his approach, Big World fired around 291 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.480 at the officer shoot actually hitting him in the face 292 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:49.480 with the round. Hyman fired six shots back while retreating, 293 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:52.920 but missed all six, and then they fled from there. 294 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:58.640 That's when a police broadcast across the state of Maryland 295 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.079 was sent what we call in law enforcement a boat 296 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.480 we'll be on the lookout for, with the description of 297 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.839 the vehicle and the two guys, and that's how they 298 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:16.720 get stopped minutes later by a Maryland State trooper Carol 299 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:22.839 Sermon I believe he pronounced his name. He stops him, 300 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:32.000 and it's a pretty good account. On James Brunoff's interview 301 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:36.000 on what actually transpired, he actually he actually said that 302 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:42.599 these two were equally equally crazy. Bigle World was crazy, 303 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:44.880 and so with the trooper, they were basically doing a 304 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:49.960 shootout standing face to face with one another. So a 305 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:56.279 shootout ensued, with the trooper getting hit in the leg 306 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:01.160 and him shooting began. Wall hit hint, striking him in 307 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:03.160 the face, but it grazed, but it was enough to 308 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.240 send him back inside the car and causing the card 309 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.640 to going to drive, and they ran off into a ditch, 310 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:17.200 and that's when the trooper approached, kicked the gun away 311 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:22.079 and took both of them under arrest. According to sprawn Off, 312 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.200 he was just an innocent victim in this. In the shootout, Uh, 313 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.000 he didn't. He didn't partake in terms of he didn't 314 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.119 he didn't have a weaponon, so he didn't. He didn't shoot. 315 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.079 But you know, his his account of it was, you know, 316 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.319 he was trapped in this in this big world world, 317 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:42.440 bigger world world. That's a tongue twister, and he couldn't 318 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.839 get out of it, and it was just it was 319 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.920 just it was just unfolding before him. So you know, 320 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.000 the decisions you make. He was now living by these decisions. 321 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:56.039 But that's how they were actually apprehended after the Sldowski 322 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:56.640 get killing. 323 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:01.799 Yeah, it's incredible, the too true reaction. He grazed the 324 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:05.880 first trooper's face and so it wasn't fatal and then 325 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:12.079 and then went on. And it's interesting Trooper Sermon basically 326 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:16.160 recognized that there was that he had seen the suspects 327 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:18.839 and then organized a roadblock and then there was the 328 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:22.480 shootout between them. What's interesting we didn't talk about is 329 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:27.480 the preparation that these guys did beforehand in terms of 330 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.759 something like this happening. And you take the reader right 331 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:35.079 into the horror that that this trooper, knowing that these 332 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:39.079 guys are these murder suspects, were coming up to that vehicle. 333 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:42.720 What was the preparation in terms of the shotgun and 334 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:49.960 the jacket that again, this innocent Jimmy Spornoff claimed, But 335 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:55.000 what did he do in preparation for some kind of 336 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:56.759 confrontation with police? 337 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.720 Well, you're right, and yeah, I I didn't mention that 338 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:03.759 in terms of the prep that they did for the robbery. 339 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:09.559 And then after they actually had a bag of shotgun shells, 340 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:14.559 they had the sword that they used to to bring 341 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.000 the shotgun barrel down, to make his sawed off so 342 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:19.599 he can put it onto a raincoat, a blue raincoat. 343 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.440 And what they did is they sliced in the pocket, 344 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.839 They cut the pocket so he can have his hand 345 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.000 on the shotgun underneath the long raincoat as he went 346 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.559 into the store or when he was walking. And in 347 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:37.519 addition to that, they took bigger oehead, reddish reddish hair, 348 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:44.000 and they actually put his hair with almost like shoe polish, 349 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:46.599 made his hair black, running the shoe polish through his 350 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.400 hair to make his hair black. So when he couldn't 351 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:51.160 you know if they were going to identify it would 352 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:56.839 be his with black hair. And so that that kit 353 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.880 that they had, that bag that I told you mentioned 354 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.519 also had a flashlight in there and had some other 355 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.200 map and it had some other things. So it was 356 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:07.319 quite clear in terms of we, you know, we'd like 357 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:10.480 to use the word motive in what what Big and 358 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:13.319 Wold's motive was. And and Spine Walf as well. He 359 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.400 you know, they were prepping this together. They brought the shotgun, 360 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:19.880 uh to a point where you can get it under 361 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:23.319 a raincoat. Spinoff supplied most of the equipment to him, 362 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:24.319 so he was in it. 363 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:25.240 He was in it deep. 364 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:29.039 Whether he knew Big War was going to kill the 365 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.839 guy or not, he certainly knew that they were. They 366 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:34.039 were not going in there to uh, you know, get 367 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:35.759 a pack of cigarettes. They were they were going to 368 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.240 rob the place. And when they when he chose to 369 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:41.839 flee with Big and Wald, he knew he knew Big 370 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.480 and Wald. He he talked about the anger and the 371 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.160 bizarre actions that Big and Wald had when they were 372 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.240 sitting one one night, just sitting with a girl after 373 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:51.519 they had a bottle of one. And I mentioned about 374 00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:54.079 this in the in the book as well. To kind 375 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.400 of get to read it to understand who who Big 376 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.000 World was and and the environment that he was living 377 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.799 at the time, which which actually made bigger Wald, who 378 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:06.759 he was, just out of the blue went off and 379 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:11.680 slapped this woman in the face, of course, in spine 380 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:14.920 off to leave. He says he left because of he was, 381 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:17.359 you know, he was disgusted by He's probably also left 382 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.000 because he was in fear of Bigger World. So he 383 00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:22.799 was he was, He got he got sucked in, and 384 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.200 he just he couldn't get out. At first he didn't 385 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:27.640 want to get out, and then when he couldn't get out, 386 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:29.279 he didn't. He just couldn't. 387 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:31.720 You talked about both of these guys in Maryland, and 388 00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:35.640 they both waive extradition and they're transported back to New Jersey. 389 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:42.559 Assistant Prosecutor Joseph Oakes is at Beyond Police headquarters for 390 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.920 these interviews and from it comes to detailed accounts of 391 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.359 what transpired. So they both have something to say about 392 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:54.039 what happened. What's the difference in sort of the tone 393 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:56.079 of their accounts to police? 394 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:02.400 Oh, well, just like I said, big O Wald, big 395 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:05.680 O Wald was, you know, was readily you know, he did. 396 00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.680 There's a's a two or three page, if not longer, 397 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:11.880 a statement of that night. So he spoke openly about 398 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:18.599 what he did. H. He was clear on on his actions. 399 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:21.960 He was clear on what what he uh, what he 400 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:25.200 was out to do, other than the fact that you know, 401 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.640