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Speaker 1: Block Talk Radio.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker VTK
Speaker 5: every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Today.
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Speaker 7: dot com, slash murder, m u r d R ZipRecruiter
Speaker 7: dot com slash murder. Beachgoers usually dread riptides and rainy days,
Speaker 7: but from nineteen seventy four to nineteen eighty three, a
Speaker 7: different fear gripped in New Jersey Shore, young women were disappearing.
Speaker 7: Their abductor was Richard Biegenwald, a man released for good
Speaker 7: behavior after serving seventeen years in prison for murder and
Speaker 7: spending time in a psychiatric facility. Police arrested him on
Speaker 7: suspicion of rape, and it was not until they connected
Speaker 7: him to a woman's death in Asbury Park that he
Speaker 7: finally stopped his rampage. Investigators later linked him to nine
Speaker 7: murders and convicted him of five. Former New Jersey State
Speaker 7: Trooper John O'Rourke narrates the chilling story of the Jersey
Speaker 7: Shore thrill Killer. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 7: is The Jersey Shore thrill Killer Richard Biegenwald with my
Speaker 7: special guest, retiredy New Jersey State trooper and author John E. O'Rourke.
Speaker 7: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 7: this interview. John O'Rourke.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you, Dan for having me on.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much for bringing us this incredible tale.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about Let's talk about how you came to
Speaker 7: be involved with this story and why you felt it
Speaker 7: you were compelled to write The Jersey Shore threll Killer.
Speaker 6: Well, the writing of this story actually has its origins
Speaker 6: in my first two books I started writing, and they
Speaker 6: were based on the New Jersey State Police troopers that
Speaker 6: died in a line of duty. And after they came out,
Speaker 6: I was having lunch with a colleague and a mentor
Speaker 6: of mine and I had mentioned that, you know, I
Speaker 6: had the desire to write additional books. The first two
Speaker 6: books were kind of like I didn't wasn't really looking
Speaker 6: at myself as an author. I just wanted to pay
Speaker 6: tribute to the troopers who died in a line of duty.
Speaker 6: And the publisher just basically sliced the two books into
Speaker 6: the one book into two. So it was it was
Speaker 6: it was a project that not even consider myself an
Speaker 6: author at the time, but I had, you know, doing
Speaker 6: that and doing the research. I actually had the itch
Speaker 6: to write more and I'm a history book and I
Speaker 6: saw I said to him, I said, you know, I
Speaker 6: want to write about history, and he said, you can't
Speaker 6: do that, and I was like, well why not. He says, well,
Speaker 6: you know, it's hard to break into the true crime
Speaker 6: uh genre, and you did it a publisher and now
Speaker 6: you need to stay in that until you know your
Speaker 6: self established. So that kind of put me on me
Speaker 6: on the path to true crime. I never really looked
Speaker 6: when I was writing a book of that being true crime,
Speaker 6: because it was just more of yeah, it was crime
Speaker 6: that you know, took a lot of the troopers' lives.
Speaker 6: But I didn't really again, you got it, I wasn't
Speaker 6: thinking in terms of an author at that time. I
Speaker 6: was kind of glean So it took me a while
Speaker 6: and it's okay, So I need to break into, you know,
Speaker 6: to break in, I got actually research on what I'm
Speaker 6: going to do next. So I started looking at serial killers,
Speaker 6: and my research revealed that every time I would look
Speaker 6: at a book on serial killers, the name Richard Biegenwold
Speaker 6: would would pop up. Sometimes it would be just a
Speaker 6: line or two, other times it would be a paragraph
Speaker 6: or so, and then several other times it would be
Speaker 6: a couple of pages. So I looked into that and said, okay,
Speaker 6: he's obviously someone that's always he's noteworthy, he's been mentioned,
Speaker 6: has anyone written about it? And then you know that
Speaker 6: was the final to check off. No one had written
Speaker 6: about it. So I said, okay, I'm going to start
Speaker 6: researching about Richard Biegenwald and b the narrative manuscript together
Speaker 6: to that.
Speaker 7: Now you take us in the book to December eighteenth
Speaker 7: and nineteen fifty eight, and tell me if I'm mispronouncing this.
Speaker 7: It's Bayonne, New Jersey baone correct, Yes, Bayonne, okay, in
Speaker 7: New Jersey, Upper New York Bay. And one of the
Speaker 7: notable things is the Bayonne Bridge ferries transporting people across
Speaker 7: the waterrays into New York, Staten Island and New Jersey.
Speaker 7: And this is of course Christmas time, in Christmas time
Speaker 7: in the city of by Own. And you say, you
Speaker 7: talk of the time that America was in Nasau was
Speaker 7: just created that year President Eisenhower was in power. And
Speaker 7: you profile a person named Stephen Sladowski, a forty seven
Speaker 7: year old with the wife and four kids. Tell us
Speaker 7: who Stephen Sladowski is and about his other business other
Speaker 7: than being a prosecutor.
Speaker 6: Well, Stephen Sladowski was a notable member of the city
Speaker 6: of Bayone. He was a prosecutor, and he was an
Speaker 6: attorney in town, and he ended up purchasing a small
Speaker 6: business in town. So what I what I tried to
Speaker 6: do is when you had mentioned that when I opened
Speaker 6: the book and I got the Upper New York Bay
Speaker 6: with the Bayone Bridge in the backg I kind of
Speaker 6: because this story kind of plays out like almost like
Speaker 6: a movie, So I kind of laid out the narrative
Speaker 6: kind of so you can put a visual on the
Speaker 6: environment that was taking place at the time, so you
Speaker 6: can you can put in context what what it was
Speaker 6: like in Bayonne at the time and the events that
Speaker 6: were unfolding when mister Sadowski lived there, and so I
Speaker 6: opened it up. He and his wife they were getting
Speaker 6: to the point he was very successful in town, and
Speaker 6: they were getting to the point in their life that
Speaker 6: they were thinking about slowing down a little bit. So
Speaker 6: they opened up a business, thinking that that would probably
Speaker 6: be the family business once he gave up as a
Speaker 6: prosecutor and started slowing down with his law firm, and
Speaker 6: it was. It was a pretty successful business that they had.
Speaker 6: And that was a place that when we first or
Speaker 6: introduced to Richard Bieganwalters, he he targets that place. So
Speaker 6: I kind of place, if you will a visual try
Speaker 6: to painting in words of Sladowski on that side of
Speaker 6: the river and then across the kill van call you
Speaker 6: got this other person. And I don't know if I
Speaker 6: want to get if I'm getting ahead of myself with
Speaker 6: with your outline. Uh, But then you know, with Richard Biganwald,
Speaker 6: So I kind of opened it up on that day
Speaker 6: with the two are doing in the let's talk.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about Sladowski and his family and this and
Speaker 7: this store. And you talked about this being this being
Speaker 7: a prominent person and being a prosecutor and a friend
Speaker 7: and he's living in a building and there's a person
Speaker 7: named Capusta upstairs that's the the landlord of this building
Speaker 7: and has known him for years. So talk about what
Speaker 7: happens in the store. Then we can introduce Uh began
Speaker 7: Wald and like you say, a completely different background to
Speaker 7: say the least yep.
Speaker 6: So Stephen Slatowski went about his day. It was coming
Speaker 6: up on the holiday season, so there was a lot
Speaker 6: of decorations and a lot of preparations for the upcoming
Speaker 6: holiday spiritual high friends were popping in saying hello, and
Speaker 6: he was going about his day. And then later on
Speaker 6: that evening, as they were getting ready to close up,
Speaker 6: there was only another his business partner of another attorney
Speaker 6: was in the store with him. Uh, and he did.
Speaker 6: They were unaware that Richard big Wald and his accomplished
Speaker 6: were outside casing the place, so once the business owner
Speaker 6: had left, they came in and they robbed the place. However,
Speaker 6: I think I I think I make it clear in
Speaker 6: the narrative that it was under the guise of a robbery.
Speaker 6: I don't know if if Richard bigger Wald was was
Speaker 6: actually aware of his emotional motives at that point, but
Speaker 6: it was more of a killing in mind than an
Speaker 6: actual robbery. I think he had the desire for a killing,
Speaker 6: and for some reason, Steven Slodowski was the person that
Speaker 6: he was going to to kill. Uh. Some people speculate,
Speaker 6: although there's no proof to it, that he had once
Speaker 6: prosecuted a case that Richard Bingerwald was involved in. I
Speaker 6: had through my research I found nothing. That doesn't mean
Speaker 6: it doesn't exist. It's a long time ago, but for
Speaker 6: whatever reason, Richard Bgerwald targeted Slodowski as his first victim.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about the partnership that does end up in
Speaker 7: the murder of Sladowski. And you also talk about him
Speaker 7: being shot in the face and murdered in his store,
Speaker 7: and then the getaway driver Spornraft, Jimmy Spornoff, and when
Speaker 7: they got into the car there was shots fired back
Speaker 7: at the store. He also mentioned the idea that there was.
Speaker 7: It seemed that he left the cash register alone but
Speaker 7: took the man's wallet. And so if robbery was the motive,
Speaker 7: then it seemed to be not really executed. And given
Speaker 7: that that was the most motive for the murder in itself,
Speaker 7: tell us about this partnership between Jimmy Spornoff and began Wald.
Speaker 7: How they met and what were they looking for that evening?
Speaker 7: Tell us a little bit about their partnership.
Speaker 6: Well, that's that's interesting. That's an interesting part that I
Speaker 6: came across during my research. I actually was able to
Speaker 6: reach out and identify James spawn Rocks where he was living.
Speaker 6: I reached out to him and he was willing to
Speaker 6: actually get interviewed for the book. So the accounts of
Speaker 6: that night were taken right from uh Sparunroff himself, keeping
Speaker 6: in mind that there is probably some revisionist history on
Speaker 6: his part or or or misremembering on his part. They met.
Speaker 6: He was a city kid, there was they were Staten
Speaker 6: Island kids. They met. It was a small circle of
Speaker 6: friends in Staten, Ireland he met Uh. He said he
Speaker 6: was more of a colleague than a friend. But the
Speaker 6: narrative and and and obviously the research indicated that they
Speaker 6: were a little bit more than colleagues. They were hanging
Speaker 6: out together on a on a regular basis. So I
Speaker 6: think that was James's way of kind of distancing himself
Speaker 6: to the event that actually took place on the December night.
Speaker 6: But bigan Waldh was a was a bright kid. He
Speaker 6: he was not large and statute. I think he was
Speaker 6: about five eight, and somehow him in and Sparanwoff began
Speaker 6: hanging out. He was as small you look at the
Speaker 6: illustrations the pictures in the book, Sparnawolf was a small,
Speaker 6: kind of a nerdy looking kid with with thick you know, glasses.
Speaker 6: However he was he was. He was a tough city boy.
Speaker 6: One pitch actually illustrates when with the one guy touching
Speaker 6: his arm out you can see the anger in in
Speaker 6: Sprunoff's uh face, So they were kind of suited for
Speaker 6: one another. I think spru Sprunoff was aware of the
Speaker 6: the criminal activity that Big World was was wanted to
Speaker 6: take part in, and his actions prepping for the burglary
Speaker 6: with acquiring a shotgun, throwing that shotgun the barrel of it,
Speaker 6: turning it into a sort of shotgun underneath a bridge
Speaker 6: in Staten Island. He certainly was aware of what they
Speaker 6: were about to do. I don't think he was aware
Speaker 6: that Big World was going to kill the guy. I
Speaker 6: think he thought they were going to rob the place,
Speaker 6: So I do think that he is he It was
Speaker 6: it was shocking to see that he actually had come
Speaker 6: out of the store shooting and he had killed the guy.
Speaker 7: However, however, though the regardless of when you say that
Speaker 7: that he didn't realize it was going to be a murder,
Speaker 7: you write that he was shocked when Beigenwald showed him
Speaker 7: the newspaper and then the headlines about murder, and then
Speaker 7: he said, listen, I didn't do anything, and Biegenwald said,
Speaker 7: you're in the same boat as me. Now at that
Speaker 7: point though, you would think that maybe he would have
Speaker 7: his regrets of assisting Beigenwald. But what happens with this
Speaker 7: partnership after this near getaway you talk about shooting up
Speaker 7: the store, they get away on this ferry, they dumped
Speaker 7: the automobile despite witnesses seeing the car and getting the
Speaker 7: license plate number and having a description of Beigenwald as well.
Speaker 7: What do this duo do together and what do they
Speaker 7: plan and what is born Roth's contribution to it?
Speaker 6: Well, following the following day when when when you know,
Speaker 6: when that incident hits the paper, uh spun off his
Speaker 6: approach with Big World and just exactly what you said,
Speaker 6: you know, he he's like, oh, I had nothing to
Speaker 6: do with this, and and big a World like, no,
Speaker 6: you're you're you're you're in it. Just like cong in it.
Speaker 6: They the old saying is not what you did that
Speaker 6: gets you, you know, gets you in trouble, although it's
Speaker 6: what you do about what you did. If he would
Speaker 6: have maybe turned himself and saying, hey, listen, I drove
Speaker 6: this guy to the store and I thought he's going
Speaker 6: to put back the cigarettes, it would have been a
Speaker 6: pretty weak defense because he helped them, you know, do
Speaker 6: the shotgun. But if if you would have stepped away
Speaker 6: from it and saying, hey, I had no idea he
Speaker 6: was going to, you know, shoot the guy, he might
Speaker 6: have got a less of sentence. But he chose to flee.
Speaker 6: They they so they fled to south, traversing the turnpike
Speaker 6: and then went into the state of Maryland. And it's
Speaker 6: in the state of Maryland that this crime spray if
Speaker 6: you will, continues. They are observed by a local police officer,
Speaker 6: Officer Hymen of the Salisbury Police I believe I'm pronouncing
Speaker 6: that correct, sees them pulling into town. They committed a
Speaker 6: minor motor vehicle fraction, but I'm sure their reaction to
Speaker 6: his presence is probably also what stimulated him to stop
Speaker 6: the motor vehicle. Upon his approach, Big World fired around
Speaker 6: at the officer shoot actually hitting him in the face
Speaker 6: with the round. Hyman fired six shots back while retreating,
Speaker 6: but missed all six, and then they fled from there.
Speaker 6: That's when a police broadcast across the state of Maryland
Speaker 6: was sent what we call in law enforcement a boat
Speaker 6: we'll be on the lookout for, with the description of
Speaker 6: the vehicle and the two guys, and that's how they
Speaker 6: get stopped minutes later by a Maryland State trooper Carol
Speaker 6: Sermon I believe he pronounced his name. He stops him,
Speaker 6: and it's a pretty good account. On James Brunoff's interview
Speaker 6: on what actually transpired, he actually he actually said that
Speaker 6: these two were equally equally crazy. Bigle World was crazy,
Speaker 6: and so with the trooper, they were basically doing a
Speaker 6: shootout standing face to face with one another. So a
Speaker 6: shootout ensued, with the trooper getting hit in the leg
Speaker 6: and him shooting began. Wall hit hint, striking him in
Speaker 6: the face, but it grazed, but it was enough to
Speaker 6: send him back inside the car and causing the card
Speaker 6: to going to drive, and they ran off into a ditch,
Speaker 6: and that's when the trooper approached, kicked the gun away
Speaker 6: and took both of them under arrest. According to sprawn Off,
Speaker 6: he was just an innocent victim in this. In the shootout, Uh,
Speaker 6: he didn't. He didn't partake in terms of he didn't
Speaker 6: he didn't have a weaponon, so he didn't. He didn't shoot.
Speaker 6: But you know, his his account of it was, you know,
Speaker 6: he was trapped in this in this big world world,
Speaker 6: bigger world world. That's a tongue twister, and he couldn't
Speaker 6: get out of it, and it was just it was
Speaker 6: just it was just unfolding before him. So you know,
Speaker 6: the decisions you make. He was now living by these decisions.
Speaker 6: But that's how they were actually apprehended after the Sldowski
Speaker 6: get killing.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's incredible, the too true reaction. He grazed the
Speaker 7: first trooper's face and so it wasn't fatal and then
Speaker 7: and then went on. And it's interesting Trooper Sermon basically
Speaker 7: recognized that there was that he had seen the suspects
Speaker 7: and then organized a roadblock and then there was the
Speaker 7: shootout between them. What's interesting we didn't talk about is
Speaker 7: the preparation that these guys did beforehand in terms of
Speaker 7: something like this happening. And you take the reader right
Speaker 7: into the horror that that this trooper, knowing that these
Speaker 7: guys are these murder suspects, were coming up to that vehicle.
Speaker 7: What was the preparation in terms of the shotgun and
Speaker 7: the jacket that again, this innocent Jimmy Spornoff claimed, But
Speaker 7: what did he do in preparation for some kind of
Speaker 7: confrontation with police?
Speaker 6: Well, you're right, and yeah, I I didn't mention that
Speaker 6: in terms of the prep that they did for the robbery.
Speaker 6: And then after they actually had a bag of shotgun shells,
Speaker 6: they had the sword that they used to to bring
Speaker 6: the shotgun barrel down, to make his sawed off so
Speaker 6: he can put it onto a raincoat, a blue raincoat.
Speaker 6: And what they did is they sliced in the pocket,
Speaker 6: They cut the pocket so he can have his hand
Speaker 6: on the shotgun underneath the long raincoat as he went
Speaker 6: into the store or when he was walking. And in
Speaker 6: addition to that, they took bigger oehead, reddish reddish hair,
Speaker 6: and they actually put his hair with almost like shoe polish,
Speaker 6: made his hair black, running the shoe polish through his
Speaker 6: hair to make his hair black. So when he couldn't
Speaker 6: you know if they were going to identify it would
Speaker 6: be his with black hair. And so that that kit
Speaker 6: that they had, that bag that I told you mentioned
Speaker 6: also had a flashlight in there and had some other
Speaker 6: map and it had some other things. So it was
Speaker 6: quite clear in terms of we, you know, we'd like
Speaker 6: to use the word motive in what what Big and
Speaker 6: Wold's motive was. And and Spine Walf as well. He
Speaker 6: you know, they were prepping this together. They brought the shotgun,
Speaker 6: uh to a point where you can get it under
Speaker 6: a raincoat. Spinoff supplied most of the equipment to him,
Speaker 6: so he was in it.
Speaker 7: He was in it deep.
Speaker 6: Whether he knew Big War was going to kill the
Speaker 6: guy or not, he certainly knew that they were. They
Speaker 6: were not going in there to uh, you know, get
Speaker 6: a pack of cigarettes. They were they were going to
Speaker 6: rob the place. And when they when he chose to
Speaker 6: flee with Big and Wald, he knew he knew Big
Speaker 6: and Wald. He he talked about the anger and the
Speaker 6: bizarre actions that Big and Wald had when they were
Speaker 6: sitting one one night, just sitting with a girl after
Speaker 6: they had a bottle of one. And I mentioned about
Speaker 6: this in the in the book as well. To kind
Speaker 6: of get to read it to understand who who Big
Speaker 6: World was and and the environment that he was living
Speaker 6: at the time, which which actually made bigger Wald, who
Speaker 6: he was, just out of the blue went off and
Speaker 6: slapped this woman in the face, of course, in spine
Speaker 6: off to leave. He says he left because of he was,
Speaker 6: you know, he was disgusted by He's probably also left
Speaker 6: because he was in fear of Bigger World. So he
Speaker 6: was he was, He got he got sucked in, and
Speaker 6: he just he couldn't get out. At first he didn't
Speaker 6: want to get out, and then when he couldn't get out,
Speaker 6: he didn't. He just couldn't.
Speaker 7: You talked about both of these guys in Maryland, and
Speaker 7: they both waive extradition and they're transported back to New Jersey.
Speaker 7: Assistant Prosecutor Joseph Oakes is at Beyond Police headquarters for
Speaker 7: these interviews and from it comes to detailed accounts of
Speaker 7: what transpired. So they both have something to say about
Speaker 7: what happened. What's the difference in sort of the tone
Speaker 7: of their accounts to police?
Speaker 6: Oh, well, just like I said, big O Wald, big
Speaker 6: O Wald was, you know, was readily you know, he did.
Speaker 6: There's a's a two or three page, if not longer,
Speaker 6: a statement of that night. So he spoke openly about
Speaker 6: what he did. H. He was clear on on his actions.
Speaker 6: He was clear on what what he uh, what he
Speaker 6: was out to do, other than the fact that you know,
Speaker 6: fall in short of saying that he he was he
Speaker 6: was out to murder this this guy Swardowski. He uh
Speaker 6: implicated Sprunoff in all the actions. Kind of converse that
Speaker 6: with James Sprunoff's account uh to the prosecutor, he uh
Speaker 6: he tried to lessen his involvement in it, even though
Speaker 6: he's the one that supplied the gun, even though he's
Speaker 6: the one who supplied the raincoat. His his defense was
Speaker 6: he didn't realize that he was going to take it
Speaker 6: to the next level. He didn't realize that he was
Speaker 6: going to be the getaway driver, which which is kind
Speaker 6: of is kind of thin because you know, he claims
Speaker 6: he didn't have a license, but he's the one that
Speaker 6: actually was behind the steering wheel when Bigo was in
Speaker 6: the store, and he's also the one that drove away
Speaker 6: from the scene, and he did it quite well. So
Speaker 6: he tried to make make the the the least of
Speaker 6: what what he did and tried to sprawn off in
Speaker 6: his account, but it was quite clear, and they were
Speaker 6: very cooperative on how how they prepped for the robbery,
Speaker 6: what they did, where they were, how Big Wall put
Speaker 6: on the raincoat, slipped the shotgun, the sort of shotgun
Speaker 6: underneath the raincoat as he walked into the store, putting
Speaker 6: on his hat as he walked up the steps, how
Speaker 6: he slid behind the driver's wheel, so he was. He
Speaker 6: was cooperative, and they laid it out really well on
Speaker 6: what they actually did and how that crime unfolded. The
Speaker 6: interesting thing, I don't know if you have that and
Speaker 6: you know it's the interesting part of that. I mentioned
Speaker 6: a young kid. There was a group of kids that
Speaker 6: actually saw the getaway and being will come out of
Speaker 6: the store. And the one kid I think his name
Speaker 6: was Kevin McLaughlin. My name is McLaughlin. I don't recall
Speaker 6: what his first name was. He is the one that
Speaker 6: held Stephen Slodowski in his arms. He was only eighteen
Speaker 6: years old when he took his last breath. That incident
Speaker 6: left such an indelible mark on him that he ended
Speaker 6: up going into the priesthood. I met him at one
Speaker 6: of my book signings a year or so after I
Speaker 6: wrote the book. So that's a pretty it's a pretty
Speaker 6: good story. It just it was the event was impactful,
Speaker 6: and it didn't just impact the Slodowski family.
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Speaker 7: Now we were talking about Richard Beganwald, and they have
Speaker 7: spoken to authorities and they realized the crimes that they
Speaker 7: these guys committed. Maybe they don't know the motive, but authorities,
Speaker 7: as you're right, look into the life of Richard Beganwald.
Speaker 7: And so tell us about his parents, Albert and Sally,
Speaker 7: and tell him about and tell our audience about his
Speaker 7: strange background and life.
Speaker 6: No, Albert and Sally were you know, class blue collar workers.
Speaker 6: They had, you know, Richard bigan Wald. He was born
Speaker 6: and from a very early age he started his behavior
Speaker 6: ified as bizarre. He would be playing on the on
Speaker 6: the on the floor, and then all of a sudden
Speaker 6: he'd stop and almost like like the tending that he's
Speaker 6: he's you know, he stopped in time and he wouldn't move.
Speaker 6: And that behavior continued. As the older he got, the
Speaker 6: more troubling, if you will. His his behavior became so
Speaker 6: much so that they they brought him to a doctor
Speaker 6: and they this is this is the point where my
Speaker 6: research is kind of it's it's kind of all over
Speaker 6: the place in terms of on the medical diagnosis of
Speaker 6: what he actually had. The one account that says he
Speaker 6: had he was schizophrenic, which kind of is in line
Speaker 6: with that bizarre body movement that that falls in line
Speaker 6: with someone who's a schizophrenic. That's part of what they
Speaker 6: do as a as a kid, he was fascinated with
Speaker 6: with fire, he was, which is another hallmark of of
Speaker 6: this type of individual who's going to go on to
Speaker 6: the you know, anti social disorder. He was was fascinated
Speaker 6: with death, death of animals, and he was involved doing
Speaker 6: a couple of those things growing up. And so he
Speaker 6: was he was from a very early age. He was
Speaker 6: in and out of doctor's offices and hospitals because of
Speaker 6: this behavior. What I wasn't able to determine or discover
Speaker 6: in my research is is what treatment was really afforded
Speaker 6: to him. There's no evidence that even though one account
Speaker 6: has him as a schizophrenic, the other one has you know,
Speaker 6: anti social disorder clearly classifying his behavior is bizarre and
Speaker 6: obviously voting on troubling since he set his sad try
Speaker 6: to set his house on fire when he was a
Speaker 6: small toddler. But in terms of medicational medication was different
Speaker 6: back in the fifties, but there was still medication available.
Speaker 6: I don't see anything where he was actually treated for
Speaker 6: his for his clear mental disorder whatever that would be
Speaker 6: classified as today. He was, you know, he was in
Speaker 6: the Children's psychiatric Hospital of Auckland County for a while.
Speaker 6: He went to a New York Delville hospital. He was
Speaker 6: there when he was a kid. They would give him
Speaker 6: electric shock treatment, which is a yeah, it sounds, it
Speaker 6: sounds cruel, kind of really is cool. But my research
Speaker 6: indicated that was a common practice. I believe to some
Speaker 6: extent it is even used today in trying to treat
Speaker 6: individuals who have this type of mental disorder. Uh. He
Speaker 6: had recounted that these these electric shock treatments, they would
Speaker 6: I guess from either the war, either water or sweat,
Speaker 6: or a combination of both. He would be cold in
Speaker 6: between the treatments, and he recounted that he would used
Speaker 6: to have to urinate himself, uh, to try to try
Speaker 6: to keep himself warm. So clearly there's some there's some
Speaker 6: problems going on there and it's and it's exacerbated by
Speaker 6: the treatment that that he was receiving at one point
Speaker 6: when he when he becomes a teenager. Uh, they put
Speaker 6: him into the State School for Boys, which is up
Speaker 6: in Warwick, New York, which is basically a school for
Speaker 6: troubled youth. And he was there for a while.
Speaker 4: And uh.
Speaker 6: Which was unique about Richie big Water and I mentioned
Speaker 6: it when later on, I guess what we'll talk about
Speaker 6: it is that he was very intelligent. His defense attorney
Speaker 6: years later would classify him as brilliant and we'll probably
Speaker 6: one of the smartest people he had. He said, his
Speaker 6: i Q was, it was it was extremely high. He
Speaker 6: had this way to really identify when when he first
Speaker 6: got into the Trouble School for Boys, he acted out,
Speaker 6: actually tried to tried to escape, getting a group of
Speaker 6: people and uh, they actually tried to escape. But he
Speaker 6: realized he was he wasn't going to get out that way.
Speaker 6: He became a model student, started complying and understanding bigger
Speaker 6: world and the research that would unfold in this In
Speaker 6: this process to write this book, he identified that as Okay,
Speaker 6: this is how i want to get out of here.
Speaker 6: This is how I'm going to get out of here.
Speaker 6: Good behavior played up act the role, and they're going
Speaker 6: to release me. And they did, and he went. He
Speaker 6: went into the main mainstream school system where he eventually
Speaker 6: dropped out. So that's foreshadowing on what was going to
Speaker 6: happen years later when he was behind doors.
Speaker 7: You're right, he talks about we get back to the trial,
Speaker 7: because there is no trial, but there's guilty pleas from
Speaker 7: these guys that have already signed extensive statements of their
Speaker 7: culpability June fifteenth, nineteen fifty nine. So Jimmy gets twenty
Speaker 7: five to thirty years, both eligible for parole, and as
Speaker 7: you say, Bigenwald, it doesn't adjust immediately, but at some point,
Speaker 7: because this where he is, there's a riot even at
Speaker 7: the prison. So both of these guys try to mind
Speaker 7: their own business. Once they go to prison. They're both separated.
Speaker 7: They don't want to have anything to do with each other, apparently,
Speaker 7: but they both get the idea, but especially Beiganwald finally
Speaker 7: gets the idea that maybe if he behaves himself, he'll
Speaker 7: get out on parole, and he does in sixteen years.
Speaker 7: So now he's a free man and he's living, as
Speaker 7: you write, at his mom's in Staten Island June twenty fourth,
Speaker 7: nineteen seventy five. And he gets some work painting houses
Speaker 7: and helping in automotive shops. He's now more well read
Speaker 7: and more mature. He's a really bright guy. And then
Speaker 7: you talk about he meets someone named Diane. Tell us
Speaker 7: about this meeting, who is she, how old is she?
Speaker 7: And tell us more about this relationship as it progresses.
Speaker 6: Diane bigger Wald is an interesting character. She is very attractive.
Speaker 6: She's a bigger woman in height wise, she's probably his height,
Speaker 6: if not a little bit taller than him, but very attractive.
Speaker 6: She becomes enthralled by the world and understanding what was
Speaker 6: going to take place with his with his thrilled killings
Speaker 6: with women. He had a sense about him. I I
Speaker 6: I still can't rep my my my head around what
Speaker 6: that was. He was an average looking guy. He had
Speaker 6: he had piercing blue eyes, and he had reddish hair,
Speaker 6: but there was something about his persona, his personality, his
Speaker 6: way to interactle that made him made him very welcome
Speaker 6: to the opposite sex. So she became smitten with him,
Speaker 6: and they began dating. Now, there is some drug use
Speaker 6: in Bigger World's life, and she although there's no there's
Speaker 6: no evidence that that has her doing drugs, but there's
Speaker 6: no evidence that says that she wasn't. And she was
Speaker 6: clearly aware of the the world that he was now
Speaker 6: operating in. So I'm sure his his lifestyle was somewhat
Speaker 6: attractive to her as well. But they ended up dating,
Speaker 6: and they ended up getting getting married. It's a he's
Speaker 6: the word bizarre. I don't want to use the word
Speaker 6: too much, but it's a bizarre relationship. As time goes on,
Speaker 6: he actually introduces a girlfriend h to the relationship. But
Speaker 6: I don't want to get I don't know where you
Speaker 6: are with your notes. I don't know if I want
Speaker 6: to get ahead of that. If you want to talk
Speaker 6: about what unfolded soon as he got out of.
Speaker 7: Let yeah, let's talk about the Diane and he meet
Speaker 7: and so they're an item. But before you talk about
Speaker 7: the marriage, we got to talk about how he meets
Speaker 7: his attorney again, his attorney in a much bigger case,
Speaker 7: lou Diamond. The thing is he's with Diane and he
Speaker 7: picks up a hitchhiker on the road, tell us about
Speaker 7: what happens to this hitchhiker, and tell us what happens
Speaker 7: that circumstances that lead to him meeting his future attorney.
Speaker 6: Yes, he picks up a hitchhiker one evening and she
Speaker 6: gets into the car again with that with whatever UH
Speaker 6: disposition that he has, that he has this ability to
Speaker 6: to get women to listen to him, to comply, and
Speaker 6: to feel safe and secure, which is a common trait
Speaker 6: amongst a lot many serial killers. Unfortunately, that is true.
Speaker 6: She gets in the car and they're driving, and she,
Speaker 6: unlike many, she she senses something that is starting to
Speaker 6: go wrong with his behavior, and she follows her instincts,
Speaker 6: which is commendable for her. She realizes, you know what,
Speaker 6: this is something wrong here, and she manages to escape.
Speaker 6: She manages to escape, and she flees, and she goes
Speaker 6: to the police department, and she gives a description of
Speaker 6: Richard Bigehot, which is which is you know, five for
Speaker 6: five ft eight, red red hair, pearson, pearson, blue eyes.
Speaker 6: He's got a score on his on his face that's
Speaker 6: from the gun. That's from the gunfight that he was
Speaker 6: involved in. The fifty eight UH not really hard to
Speaker 6: uh to avoid that description on Big Wads Part uh right.
Speaker 6: He ends up based on that description. They identify who
Speaker 6: he is, he becomes a target. They arrest him. He's
Speaker 6: sitting in it. He's sitting in the jail in Staten Island.
Speaker 6: There's a criminal defense attorney, a young defense attorney named
Speaker 6: lou Diamond. He represents a lot of the he's a
Speaker 6: he's a he's a criminal defense at it. So he
Speaker 6: represents a lot of the mob mobsters on Staten Ireland.
Speaker 6: So he has a reputation as being a mob attorney.
Speaker 6: He gets a phone call, he says, from someone in
Speaker 6: the underworld who he doesn't identify, but he knows. He says,
Speaker 6: it's clearly someone that's in the underworld obviously, i e.
Speaker 6: Organized crime. They say, we need you to do us
Speaker 6: a favor. When they ask to do a favor, you
Speaker 6: do a favor. We need you to represent this person.
Speaker 6: He was arrested and he's a good kid, gives his
Speaker 6: mouth shut, just does what he's told, So we need
Speaker 6: you to represent him. That's how this defense attorney, Loue
Speaker 6: Diamond is introduced into Richard big Wall's life.
Speaker 7: He goes it's intro to jail, No, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6: He goes to the jail for the first meeting with
Speaker 6: Big World. They're sitting there talking and you know, going
Speaker 6: through you know, the case and what happened. And before
Speaker 6: they before he leaves, he closes the door, Diamond looks
Speaker 6: back and he says to him, that's an interesting hair
Speaker 6: color you have, and he walks away. But he did
Speaker 6: it in in such a way, in such a tone
Speaker 6: that biagle Will got exactly what he meant. And he
Speaker 6: shaved his hair that night, which created a problem in
Speaker 6: the in the police line up the following day. And
Speaker 6: that's ultimately that that ended up leading to him not
Speaker 6: being identified because the victim could not identify who he
Speaker 6: was and he walked in that charge. And back then,
Speaker 6: nowadays they do photo lineups. Back then he actually did
Speaker 6: live lineups of people.
Speaker 7: So yeah, it was uh interesting too that when we
Speaker 7: talked about the marriage, because he thought he was going away,
Speaker 7: because he's certain he was going to go away, and
Speaker 7: he knew nothing about this someone angel in his in
Speaker 7: his corner recommending and giving a call the lou Diamond,
Speaker 7: this prestigious lawyer, to come and defend him. He thought
Speaker 7: he was going to go to jail, and so Diane
Speaker 7: and him tied the knot at that point. So, knowing
Speaker 7: more about his character, she decided to marry him while
Speaker 7: he was off for prison.
Speaker 6: Potentially correct. And it's kind to looking back at it.
Speaker 6: We know now that that that you know they were
Speaker 6: looking at he was going to sexually assault that hitchhiker.
Speaker 6: Now we look back and we can we can speculate
Speaker 6: that he was going it was actually probably gonna be
Speaker 6: one of his throat killings. Yeah, did she know about this?
Speaker 6: We don't know what was some sexual thing that they
Speaker 6: were going to take part. So she was aware of
Speaker 6: his behavior and his criminality to what extent you know,
Speaker 6: you can only we can only speculate. Right now.
Speaker 7: You take us to January fourteenth, nineteen eighty three, and
Speaker 7: there's two boys playing and they discover a body about
Speaker 7: fifty feet from the start of a path, just off
Speaker 7: a trail near a burger king adjacent to a wooded lot,
Speaker 7: and its skeletal remains of a female in Ocean Township.
Speaker 7: Detective Robert Miller is involved, and there's also a detective Lucia. Now,
Speaker 7: what's the condition of this female and is there any
Speaker 7: evidence left behind and then tell us about Anna Marie. Also,
Speaker 7: I don't know about this association which also which.
Speaker 6: Yep, yes they these boys discover a skeletal remains of
Speaker 6: Anna Ossowitz. There are there is some evidence this clothing
Speaker 6: that's that's that's there that she was wearing. There there
Speaker 6: are no shoes found at the scene. And there are
Speaker 6: some twenty two bullet fragments in the skull of the
Speaker 6: of the victim. That that's the forensics that they had
Speaker 6: at the time had no idea. There was no identifying
Speaker 6: paperwork documents with her. So that's what they that they
Speaker 6: went on is just there was a missing per.
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Speaker 6: You know, twenty two rounds. Fragments were found in the
Speaker 6: skull with clothing. What happens is it gets reported on
Speaker 6: the news. It's in the paper and a police officer
Speaker 6: named Mike Dowling from Asbury Park Police, he's reading the
Speaker 6: paper on his day off and joining a cup of
Speaker 6: coffee and that's when he comes across this article and
Speaker 6: what stands out to him is the didn't have any shoes,
Speaker 6: and he recalled a missing person case that he had
Speaker 6: done several months before that she had been sitting up
Speaker 6: in the Ansberry Park boardwalker owns throw from the famous
Speaker 6: Stone Stone Pony Bruce Springsteen frequent frequent were sitting there,
Speaker 6: but she had no shoes, so he based on that
Speaker 6: he reached out to the p day and next how
Speaker 6: they ultimately and identifying her as the victim.
Speaker 7: You write about the friend and Anna Marie going out
Speaker 7: and then her friend has issues, so she has to
Speaker 7: go to a washroom, so she leaves her friend outside
Speaker 7: of this out like I say, across the street from
Speaker 7: the Stone Pony, famous musical venue. And when she comes
Speaker 7: back in so many minutes, Anna Marie is gone, and
Speaker 7: so that's how she is then reported. Her friend reports
Speaker 7: her the next day to police. And so how does
Speaker 7: the investigation proceed and how far do they get in
Speaker 7: terms of determining who the perpetrator is in this case.
Speaker 6: Well, they the police, you know, they they follow normal protocols.
Speaker 6: And in this case, the last person she was with,
Speaker 6: she she's the she's the first one that's gonna show
Speaker 6: up on the right. And could she have any involvement
Speaker 6: in it? And she did. She had a little bit
Speaker 6: of a trouble in past, but so did Anna in
Speaker 6: terms of, you know, uh, recreational drug use. And so
Speaker 6: they explored her background and the one thing that that
Speaker 6: didn't sit well with them was the fact that she
Speaker 6: had They walked back it was it was it was
Speaker 6: it was the house that she was using from her
Speaker 6: uncle wasn't exactly close, but it was in walking distance,
Speaker 6: and they went back there and used the restroom. She
Speaker 6: left Anna and she came back and that's when she
Speaker 6: was gone. So they had a little bit of a
Speaker 6: of a problem believing that at first, but ultimately, as
Speaker 6: as it turns out that obviously she was cleared from that.
Speaker 6: So looking back at this, you can see it's being
Speaker 6: a former former state troop, but you can see that
Speaker 6: there's some really communication errors being being dropped on law
Speaker 6: enforcement's part because they were missing missing women that were
Speaker 6: happening all across the Jersey Shore area, and because of
Speaker 6: it was different venues, it wasn't really getting reported. So
Speaker 6: I don't know, I don't know why no one ever
Speaker 6: put you know, two and two together and said, you know,
Speaker 6: maybe maybe we got maybe we got a serial killer
Speaker 6: on the loose, because you know, you go from November
Speaker 6: of eighty one, you know to November of eighty two,
Speaker 6: you're talking about you know, one, two, three, fourth like
Speaker 6: sick people missing. But they never really put two and
Speaker 6: two together. So they were they were still exploring what,
Speaker 6: you know, what happened with her, and they didn't they
Speaker 6: weren't tying in. It's just the thing that really kind
Speaker 6: of perplexing for me as as an investigator, why they
Speaker 6: didn't start exploring the missing people that were that were
Speaker 6: taking place. And they were all very similar in age
Speaker 6: and and and looks as well, young females, dark hair,
Speaker 6: dark eyes, but they didn't. Uh so they were you know,
Speaker 6: they had a victim. They had some forensics. DNA wasn't
Speaker 6: what it was if it existed at all at the time.
Speaker 6: It was just beginning to come into play, and that's
Speaker 6: all they had.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 6: If not not for I had mentioned, uh, Richard big
Speaker 6: Wold introducing a girlfriend into he and Diane's life. If
Speaker 6: not for that girlfriend coming forward, which a very well
Speaker 6: might never have been arrested and Anna's murderer would probably
Speaker 6: never even be identified.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about that. You write that detectives Lucia and
Speaker 7: Miller learned that Anna had been wearing a black and
Speaker 7: gold ring and there was no sign of that ring
Speaker 7: at the crime scene. But that'll be important later. You
Speaker 7: introduce Teresa Smith, or we should introduce Teresa Smith, who's
Speaker 7: twenty two years old, another very pretty beautiful woman. She's
Speaker 7: addicted the amphetamines. She's working as a waitress. That's where
Speaker 7: she meets Diane began. Walt tell us about the relationship
Speaker 7: that quickly ensues and what that relationship is characterized by.
Speaker 6: Well, yes, she meets Diane. Diane introduced as arts her husband.
Speaker 6: This is where I anecdotally that that drug connection with Diane,
Speaker 6: because she was addicted ten centemines so there was some
Speaker 6: drug distribution going on out there as another gentleman, I'm
Speaker 6: sure we'll talk about William Ward was involved and that
Speaker 6: drug running. So there was this this activity was going on,
Speaker 6: and that's how she she comes into the Bigger World
Speaker 6: world and then at some point she ends up actually
Speaker 6: having a uh you sexual relationship with Richard Bigerwald and
Speaker 6: living together with with him and uh his wife Diane,
Speaker 6: to what extent the Yeah, it's pretty bizarre again with
Speaker 6: the sexual activity that was taking place. Uh, there was
Speaker 6: certainly sexual activity that was taking place between Bigger World
Speaker 6: and Teresa. Uh the role Diane took it in that part,
Speaker 6: I don't know, but it was it's it's it's bizarre
Speaker 6: and strange, but there was certainly a sexual relationship. And
Speaker 6: what he started to develop with Teresa was this he
Speaker 6: had this what would be described by her as a
Speaker 6: desire almost like he had PMS. That's how it was
Speaker 6: described to law enforcement that he would have to go out.
Speaker 6: He was getting these moods and that's when he would
Speaker 6: go out and he would do his thrill killings. And
Speaker 6: that was his way of calming down and getting getting
Speaker 6: his thrills, if you will. So he would go out
Speaker 6: and he would he would target these young, attractive, brunette,
Speaker 6: dark haired, you know girls in the eighteens to early twenties.
Speaker 6: And although there's no proof that he's sexually assaulted assaulted them,
Speaker 6: there is some anecdotal evidence that he did. When he brings,
Speaker 6: he actually brings, well, let me, I'm getting ahead of myself,
Speaker 6: So before we do that, he started to introduce and
Speaker 6: try to groom Teresa to go out with them for
Speaker 6: these these thrill killings, and he was trying to get
Speaker 6: her to actually kill someone goad sense he wanted to
Speaker 6: say something, Yeah, well he was.
Speaker 7: He was like you say, he was grooming her, you
Speaker 7: talk of you write of taking her to a shooting
Speaker 7: range so that she could get comfortable with weapons. He
Speaker 7: was asking her questions like if she was curious about
Speaker 7: touching a body, and then he did somehow convince her
Speaker 7: to at least look for a victim. And one of
Speaker 7: those victims was a coworker named Betsy Bacon. So he's
Speaker 7: confident that he's got her as a confidant, and now
Speaker 7: he's excited that there's somebody else he can someone he
Speaker 7: can share with in thrill killings that he describes to her.
Speaker 7: She doesn't witness, but he describes to her. So when
Speaker 7: you talk about no evidence of of something like that,
Speaker 7: in terms of no witness, what does tell us about
Speaker 7: this potential murder of Betsy Bacon and what actually happens.
Speaker 6: Yes, she identifies a victim and she she for some reason,
Speaker 6: she she doesn't she can't go through with it. So she,
Speaker 6: you know, identifies it. He's gonna go out and uh,
Speaker 6: you know, we're gonna they're gonna go out and they're
Speaker 6: gonna do it, and she's going to actually do the killing,
Speaker 6: but she she cannot work up the the ability to
Speaker 6: do that. Somehow they uh, he decides then or he's
Speaker 6: going to do well, let's let's let's let's pack. Let's
Speaker 6: back this up a little bit in terms of Anna Oswartz,
Speaker 6: because what happened, says he brings Anna Ossowitz, He picks
Speaker 6: her up at the on the Jersey Shore on the boardwalk.
Speaker 6: He brings her home to his apartment in Asbury Park,
Speaker 6: and she's in the car and she's she's high. They
Speaker 6: were smoking smoking pot. He leaves her in the coin
Speaker 6: and he goes up to the bedroom to wake up Teresa,
Speaker 6: to get her to come down and likely to partake
Speaker 6: in the killing. She's so high and drugged out that
Speaker 6: she she does not want to go down. She does, however,
Speaker 6: get up and look looks out the window and sees
Speaker 6: the silhouette of Anna Oswitz in the car. She she
Speaker 6: goes back into a drug induced sleep. The next morning,
Speaker 6: he brings her down into the detached garage where he's
Speaker 6: got the body of Anna Oswitz and wants her to
Speaker 6: touch the body. And that's where he ultimately takes the
Speaker 6: ring off of the body. But that right there is
Speaker 6: the key to his downfall is because he introduced Anna
Speaker 6: and that's how when they ultimately because now you know,
Speaker 6: fast forward, she can't go through with these throat killings.
Speaker 6: She identifies the victim, yes, realizes she doesn't want to
Speaker 6: go through with it. They ended up breaking up. She leaves,
Speaker 6: she's no longer a resident in the Big World household.
Speaker 6: The body of Anaosuwitz is discovered. It hits the local news.
Speaker 6: She's watching the local news. She sees it. She knows
Speaker 6: exactly who that victim was. She becomes fearful now because
Speaker 6: she can tie Bigger world to that victim, and she
Speaker 6: knows that being a world is he's very clean in
Speaker 6: his killings. He does not allow for loose ends. That's
Speaker 6: where she becomes fearful that she's going to be the
Speaker 6: next victim. And by the way, if you look at
Speaker 6: all the victims that he killed, she fits that profile. Attractive. Yeah,
Speaker 6: dark hair, dark eyes, slim figure. She fit the profile
Speaker 6: to a take so and I think she she after
Speaker 6: she got off the drugs. I think she kind of
Speaker 6: realized that she was next. And that's.
Speaker 7: It's interesting that you write too that she had. Teresa
Speaker 7: had when she broke up. She was dating another man
Speaker 7: named George Susco and uh, just as the papers were
Speaker 7: reporting discovery of Anna Maurice's body. She had she had
Speaker 7: told George, but he wrote it off, and then he
Speaker 7: shared some of those stories with his ex life ex wife, Bonnie,
Speaker 7: who was a probation officer, and she didn't believe it either,
Speaker 7: But finally she called her friend, Detective Bobby Miller, And
Speaker 7: so finally the authorities were aware of Teresa, weren't they.
Speaker 6: Yes, And and it is strange that what she was
Speaker 6: describing is is Richard biegerworld, and he had had a
Speaker 6: friend living with them as well. It's it was like
Speaker 6: a small It was a large house that was turned
Speaker 6: into uh, several small apartments if you will. And his
Speaker 6: friend were of a colleague, H. Daryl Fitzgerald lived there.
Speaker 6: And what they would do is they cut through the floor,
Speaker 6: so they had like a secret entrance to go down
Speaker 6: into the basement through the through the apartment, and in
Speaker 6: the basement they were they were experimenting with a variety
Speaker 6: of methodologies methodologies. Oh I never know what time with
Speaker 6: that word methodologies to kill people. They converted cigarette lighters
Speaker 6: into twenty two caliber guns. One of them actually discharged
Speaker 6: tonight that he was arrested. They had a poisonous snake
Speaker 6: in the basement that they were extracting the venom from
Speaker 6: that they were going to plant on phones at the
Speaker 6: Momoth Mall. They had explosive devices, they had weapons, They
Speaker 6: had edge weapons, and a variety of other instruments, including
Speaker 6: books on how to kill people. So I can see
Speaker 6: how telling someone about that be like, well, you know,
Speaker 6: no that it sounds so weird, and I can you
Speaker 6: keep on using the word bizarre. But the best worry
Speaker 6: for bigger world to think that this stuff was actually
Speaker 6: going on. It just seems too far fetched. And almost
Speaker 6: like she's embellishing. However, she wasn't embellishing. It is exactly
Speaker 6: what they were doing in their basement, will kill it.
Speaker 6: That's kind of different. I discovered through my research in
Speaker 6: these drill killings, that was his serial He enjoyed doing
Speaker 6: the serial killing, and that.
Speaker 7: Was his his.
Speaker 6: His way to get excitement in his life. I guess
Speaker 6: if you will. He was identified by his defense attorney
Speaker 6: as a hitman, and he draw us that conclusion by
Speaker 6: by conversations with him and by also his conversations with
Speaker 6: the figures that actually introduced him to Richard began Wahle
Speaker 6: asking him for the defense that he really liked to
Speaker 6: kill people, and he did that, and it was, you know,
Speaker 6: unlike the hitman that you see in Hollywood movies where
Speaker 6: they're driving around. In Ferrari's it's just he enjoyed that
Speaker 6: aspect of an alley of killing. So that operation he
Speaker 6: had in his basement is almost separate from his thrill killing.
Speaker 6: It was that was that was that was more and
Speaker 6: the poisonous venom from the snakes was more of a
Speaker 6: mass killing that he was plotting at the moment. Mall
Speaker 6: it's it's it's it's really strange. So I can see
Speaker 6: how someone with which she was embellishing, and and and
Speaker 6: keep in mind that she was very high on drugs
Speaker 6: at the time. She was a drug addict, so her
Speaker 6: perception wasn't wasn't what it should be, so people would
Speaker 6: probably not believe her.
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Speaker 7: Details we talk about Teresa almost not being believed, but
Speaker 7: she also tells authorities about somebody. She says that Veganwalld
Speaker 7: met in prison, Darren Fitzgerald. So tell us about what
Speaker 7: happens with the police finding out about the identity of
Speaker 7: this Darren Fitzgerald.
Speaker 6: Well, she comes forward and she's reluctant to come forward
Speaker 6: with authorities, but they agree to me in the momoth mall,
Speaker 6: in the back of a store, in a clothing area
Speaker 6: where where she's out of you because she's she's definitely
Speaker 6: afraid that she's she's going to be seen and she's
Speaker 6: got she's the next victim of big a world. So
Speaker 6: this introduction to Bobby Miller takes place in the concealed
Speaker 6: confines if you will, of a clothing store.
Speaker 7: Mm hmm.
Speaker 6: Again, he's this is this is very bizarre what she's
Speaker 6: saying to him. So he comes, he comes to the
Speaker 6: you know, brings that information back and they set up
Speaker 6: a formal uh, a formal interview on what you know,
Speaker 6: what's there and who's actually in the apartment. So that's
Speaker 6: this is the game plan and the takedown, the raid.
Speaker 6: In that interview process, Darrel Fitzgerald is identified as the
Speaker 6: colleague one of the people living there. He's got a
Speaker 6: violent past, he's been arrested for violence. He's been arrested
Speaker 6: away head guns actually shoulder hosters and stuff with the
Speaker 6: bulletproof vest on him in the past, so they know
Speaker 6: that they got one violent in there, and they also
Speaker 6: know bigger Wald that he had been arrested he was
Speaker 6: eighteen at the time for murder, but his arrest record
Speaker 6: other than the hitchhiker account is pretty much vacant other
Speaker 6: than the first killing, because he spent the best majority
Speaker 6: of this time in prison. So doing the due diligence,
Speaker 6: they realize, Okay, they're gonna have to They're gonna have
Speaker 6: to do a raid, and it's gonna have to be
Speaker 6: in the middle of the night, and they're going to
Speaker 6: have to is a very real possibility that del Fitzgerald
Speaker 6: is not going to cooperate. So that's how he's introduced
Speaker 6: into it. And some people, some people describe him as
Speaker 6: as being even even worse than Richard bigger Wald, that
Speaker 6: he was a real badass. But so he he was
Speaker 6: a badass. I think he was also intimidated by Richard
Speaker 6: big Wall because I think Richard bigger Wald was was
Speaker 6: great and he knew he's crazy, so Fitzgerald was. It
Speaker 6: was almost a sidekick to Richard bigger Wald.
Speaker 7: Now, what's the idea for the takedown? They want to
Speaker 7: minimize any kind of damage to anybody, to make sure
Speaker 7: no one gets hurt. And they understand that Fitzgerald and
Speaker 7: might have weapons and might be not cooperative to say
Speaker 7: the least, and began Wald the same if he's already
Speaker 7: shot at police before. So what's the idea, what's the strategy,
Speaker 7: what's their plan? And tell us about that execution of it.
Speaker 6: Well, they decide that they're not just going to do
Speaker 6: a raid where they're going to do it, no knock
Speaker 6: and go in. They decided that they're going to do
Speaker 6: a takedown and now it's Asberry Park. This time it
Speaker 6: was at the Amesbury Park of today's criminal activity taking
Speaker 6: place in that community.
Speaker 7: Okay, John, John, you just broke up in the last John,
Speaker 7: you just broke up in the In the last bit
Speaker 7: of exchange, we were talking about the plan for the
Speaker 7: takedown for began Wall at the apartment in Fitzgerald.
Speaker 6: Okay, uh as I said, Asbury Park was not the
Speaker 6: Asbury Pork of what it is today. There was a
Speaker 6: lot of criminal activity taking place, so it would not
Speaker 6: be unheard of to have a trespasser in the middle
Speaker 6: of the night. So that's what they set up. They
Speaker 6: decided that they wouldn't do a takedown. They were going
Speaker 6: to have a police officer go into the yard under
Speaker 6: the guys that he's criminal trying to break into the car,
Speaker 6: and they would police would be spot it and it
Speaker 6: would take him down and he would create a commotion
Speaker 6: in the in the parking lot, which is really just
Speaker 6: the driveway of the apartment, because remember the apartment is
Speaker 6: just basically a large house that was converted into four apartments.
Speaker 6: So they were going to create this commotion as if
Speaker 6: someone was being arrested, hoping that Bigger Wald and Fitzgerald
Speaker 6: would come outside and that's when they would take him down.
Speaker 6: And so that's that's what they set up, and that's
Speaker 6: that's how they were able to apprehend Bigger World. He
Speaker 6: actually came outside, Fitzgerald did not, and they had to
Speaker 6: go inside.
Speaker 7: Now they arrest him, and they end up arresting Fitzgerald
Speaker 7: as well. What happens with the questioning and what do
Speaker 7: they what do they determined tell us more about what
Speaker 7: happens next.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 6: An interesting part of when they went inside to look
Speaker 6: for Fitzgerald is that they didn't find him at first.
Speaker 6: It took quite some time. Is because it goes again
Speaker 6: with the story that Teresa was talking about, with this
Speaker 6: this lab taking places with weaponry and and poisonous snakes
Speaker 6: in the basement, and and and hidden hidden closets and
Speaker 6: and in the house he was hiding. There was a
Speaker 6: hidden compartment within the wall behind a mirror, and he
Speaker 6: was hiding behind that with a gun in long rifle
Speaker 6: in in hand while they were searching through the house.
Speaker 6: Why he didn't why he didn't start firing, uh, is
Speaker 6: is a mystery. Uh. One of the officers said that
Speaker 6: they were They remember staring in that mirror and looking
Speaker 6: back at it knowing that he was on the other side.
Speaker 6: It was a two way mirror. Looking at him with
Speaker 6: a long rifle in hand is kind of scary, probably
Speaker 6: because he was he was under the impression that they
Speaker 6: weren't going to they weren't going to discover him in
Speaker 6: the closet, and there was a lot of them there.
Speaker 6: Ultimately they he did, and they apprehended him, and he
Speaker 6: gave up without without the gunfire. During the interview process
Speaker 6: post arrest, yeah, Uh, he was initially uncooperative. Then when
Speaker 6: he realized that he was going to be an accomplice
Speaker 6: in the murder of an Ossowitz and they were going
Speaker 6: to charge him as an accomplice. He came forward, Uh
Speaker 6: he said, if I come forward with with some bodies,
Speaker 6: you know, for a plea deal, And that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 6: And he so that's how that's how they got Darryl
Speaker 6: Fitzgerald to flip on Bigle Wald and he was he
Speaker 6: had he had mentioned about where they buried the bodies,
Speaker 6: and it was it was several bodies that uh, one
Speaker 6: was in one was, if I recall correctly, one or
Speaker 6: two in Jersey, and there was two that were at
Speaker 6: his mother's Big World's mother's house in the backyard.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 6: So they may realized that they realized that they had
Speaker 6: they had more more than just Anosvitz as a victim,
Speaker 6: that there were more victims out there. So then that's
Speaker 6: when it's they started story around and start looking at
Speaker 6: those those missing pursing records and say, okay, who else
Speaker 6: is missing?
Speaker 7: Right? And so that's when they put together and connected
Speaker 7: him to Betsy Bacon and and other You list three
Speaker 7: other women as well that that were included with this
Speaker 7: that there was evidence to link them to Beganwald.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, Deborah Osborne, Virginia Clayton and Maria Shillela from
Speaker 6: pronouncing that name correctly. H Deborah and Maria were buried
Speaker 6: in his mother's backyard in a makeshift grave next to
Speaker 6: the garage.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and they found out that his ruse was We
Speaker 7: mentioned it before. It was just a simple ruse in
Speaker 7: terms of he used his charm. But what else was
Speaker 7: part of the ruse in terms of attract people to
Speaker 7: come with him.
Speaker 6: Was Malwuna. He had Malwanna and they were gonna go
Speaker 6: smoke and get high. Yeah. Yeah, it was that simple.
Speaker 6: He would identify him and then that's how he would
Speaker 6: get him in.
Speaker 7: Now the authorities have enough evidence. They even find the
Speaker 7: ring because they talk about they find the gold ring
Speaker 7: of Annas and so they have that in terms of
Speaker 7: crucial evidence. But this low Diamond, Lewis Diamond, is the
Speaker 7: guy representing Beganwald and you talk about his behavior and
Speaker 7: his antics.
Speaker 6: So tell us a.
Speaker 7: Little bit about what lou Diamond does and the kinds
Speaker 7: of things he does it with the media to try
Speaker 7: to help his client.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, if you would call, and I said, and
Speaker 6: I opened up the book, I try to paint his
Speaker 6: picture in words of you know, bayoned during the holiday season,
Speaker 6: and and then you know, from a distance, you could
Speaker 6: you could sit across the kilven car you see Richard Bigowaud.
Speaker 6: And the reason I did that is because this this
Speaker 6: story is you know, you have the protagonist, and then
Speaker 6: you have the antagonist, and then you got these these
Speaker 6: characters that are peppered in there that are that are
Speaker 6: so unique and and Lou Dimond is one of them.
Speaker 6: He's a popular defense attorney, criminal defense attorney off of
Speaker 6: Staten Island who drives around in a rogue Royce with
Speaker 6: the license plate that says acquittal quitted. And he dresses
Speaker 6: with in long fur coats with diamond rings. So he's this,
Speaker 6: he's this that is just so different to the small
Speaker 6: beach communities where where now where a bigger world is
Speaker 6: going to end up ultimately getting tried. And they see
Speaker 6: him driving up in a rose Royce and getting out
Speaker 6: with his long fur colt and you know his his
Speaker 6: his fingers are littered with diamond rings. He is a
Speaker 6: character that really likes the show. He likes the showmanship,
Speaker 6: he likes the appeal, he likes the press. He's well spoken,
Speaker 6: he's well educated, he's a very nice guy. He's easy
Speaker 6: to get along with, and he uses that to his
Speaker 6: advantage to to really light up the scene when he
Speaker 6: comes when he when he drives up to the Mammoth
Speaker 6: County Courthouse.
Speaker 7: You say this, and even though this is also at
Speaker 7: the same time, there's a guy named al Layer, this deprossect,
Speaker 7: and his nickname is Hollywood Owl. It's not like there
Speaker 7: is another people that understand the importance of being a
Speaker 7: little bit flamboyant and boisterous.
Speaker 6: Correct. And then you look at his counterpart, which is
Speaker 6: Hollywood al Lare. And the reason he was called Hollywood
Speaker 6: Alare is because he liked to use the press to
Speaker 6: his advantage. He anything that his office did very wisely.
Speaker 6: By the way, anything that his office did, he would
Speaker 6: make sure that there was a press press release of
Speaker 6: press conference, and he would get that word out of
Speaker 6: the job that they were doing. He liked to be
Speaker 6: in front of that podium talking to the reporters and
Speaker 6: the press. So then you got these two individuals on
Speaker 6: both sides of the lore are very similar in terms
Speaker 6: of their sultorial splendor, if you will, the way that
Speaker 6: you like to dress and the flamboyants, and it's just
Speaker 6: pitchre this taking place in a in a in a
Speaker 6: in a primarily a beach community in Mammouth County, New Jersey.
Speaker 6: And you got this serial killer which is really putting
Speaker 6: a fear in everyone in the community. How long has
Speaker 6: he been operating? How many victims have there have there been?
Speaker 6: And then you see, you know, Rose Royce is driving
Speaker 6: up with defense attorney, you know, dressed all out. And
Speaker 6: then in Hollywood out there it was like right out
Speaker 6: of a of a movie scene. And I said to myself,
Speaker 6: you know, and this is it's just playing out like
Speaker 6: it's it's fiction. However, it's not sadly it's it's it's
Speaker 6: it's it's nonfiction. This is real stuff that's taking place,
Speaker 6: and people have lost their lives.
Speaker 7: This is a big case, and it's a potentially death
Speaker 7: penalty case. And we'll talk about that and that sort
Speaker 7: of that issue that is not fixed, that there is
Speaker 7: a death penalty. We'll talk about that. Diamond is right
Speaker 7: from the beginning of jury selection is performing and and
Speaker 7: uh up to all kinds of antics. And you write
Speaker 7: about the jury too, because this case is it would
Speaker 7: be hard for anybody not to know about this case.
Speaker 7: You write tell us a little bit about some of
Speaker 7: the things they found out about the jury that almost
Speaker 7: derails this trial.
Speaker 6: Well, in jury selection, you know, they try to obviously,
Speaker 6: each side tries to get the durers to fit their
Speaker 6: their perspective or what they want in terms of obviously,
Speaker 6: in defense, they're going to want people that are unfamiliar
Speaker 6: with the case, which is hard hard to do in
Speaker 6: this area, especially since it sitting the news and it
Speaker 6: seems like they're turning up bodies every other every other day.
Speaker 6: And there was there was one dury that there was
Speaker 6: obviously very familiar with the case and failed to report that,
Speaker 6: and that that that obviously could have painted the way
Speaker 6: the you know, the jury decision, the verdict.
Speaker 7: Now, what what is the you talk about James Fagan
Speaker 7: the prosecutor, what is his strategy? How does he portray
Speaker 7: and plan to portray Veganwald in this trial? What's what
Speaker 7: does he call him? How does he want to portray
Speaker 7: him versus the depiction by Lou Diamond as just his
Speaker 7: innocent client.
Speaker 6: Well, James Fagan's the assistant prosecutor and he he is
Speaker 6: odds with the main prosecutor, Hollywood al Lair because al
Speaker 6: Lair looking is primarily looking to quickly prosecute the case
Speaker 6: and and move on. Uh, having a serial killer in
Speaker 6: your community is not something that people really want to
Speaker 6: really have, you know, extensive coverage on. So I think
Speaker 6: there was some some probably politics involved in that decision
Speaker 6: with James Fagan realized that, you know, you've got a
Speaker 6: serial killer here. We we got we have identified a
Speaker 6: number of victims, and god knows how many other victims
Speaker 6: exist out there that we haven't identified. So he portrayed
Speaker 6: him like the cold blooded killer that that he really
Speaker 6: was that and he was just doing this for a
Speaker 6: pure thrill of it, for a pure thrill of killing.
Speaker 6: And Diamond, you know, thrust with Okay, you got this,
Speaker 6: you got this guy that you have to represent. You've
Speaker 6: been with him for a number of years now, and
Speaker 6: now he turns out that he's a serial killer and
Speaker 6: he's got a number of deaths. Diamond told me in
Speaker 6: the interview process that he knew that there was no
Speaker 6: way he was going to get this guy off, even
Speaker 6: though that's just under under his obligation and his oath
Speaker 6: as a defense attorney is to get try to get
Speaker 6: him off, But he said he knew that he wasn't
Speaker 6: going to get him off. His job at this point
Speaker 6: was to try to get the death penalty to go away.
Speaker 6: He did not want the death penalty for his client
Speaker 6: because his client was, believe it or not, deathly afraid.
Speaker 6: He did not want the death penalty. So that was
Speaker 6: the struggle taking place, and al Leire wanted to did
Speaker 6: not want to take the death penalty off the table.
Speaker 6: He wanted to move forward with the prosecution and they
Speaker 6: include the death penalty throw in to this mix. Now
Speaker 6: is being a world approaches Diamond about if he comes
Speaker 6: forward with a number of bodies, will that be enough
Speaker 6: to take the death penalty off the table. There is
Speaker 6: a little bit of what's the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 6: There's a discrepancy with the number of bodies that were
Speaker 6: presented to the prosecutor. Jimmy Fagan, the assistant prosecutor, remembers
Speaker 6: that Lou Diamond presented to him that they would conforward
Speaker 6: with seventy five bodies if they would take off the
Speaker 6: death penalty off the table. Lou Diamond remembers that number
Speaker 6: at twenty five, and they're both pretty sure that the
Speaker 6: number is number. So whatever that number was, there is
Speaker 6: a considerable amount of bodies out there that are at
Speaker 6: the direct result of the hands of Richard being a
Speaker 6: walk So they present this number two al Laire who
Speaker 6: turns it down. And this is something that James Fagan
Speaker 6: says that it just never sat right with him turning
Speaker 6: that down, nor did it sit right with lou Diamond,
Speaker 6: who said to me, he said, this is something that
Speaker 6: never really to this day bothers him, is the fact
Speaker 6: that there could have been, uh, there could have been
Speaker 6: closure out there for some for some number of families,
Speaker 6: and he just was so set that in his in
Speaker 6: his in his view that the death felt he needed
Speaker 6: to be enforced with with this case that he wouldn't bend.
Speaker 6: So those bodies were never presented to to the to
Speaker 6: the prosecution for the for recovery, and the trial proceeded. Ultimately,
Speaker 6: ultimately he was found guilty and the tech penalty, uh
Speaker 6: you know, was was instituted. However, during the appeal part
Speaker 6: process they won that and he got life from prison
Speaker 6: without parole. So it was kind of counterproductive for the
Speaker 6: for the prosecution. They could have they could have maybe
Speaker 6: got something walked away with some other other bodies and uh,
Speaker 6: some case cases closed and some families healed with at
Speaker 6: least closure.
Speaker 7: Yes, absolutely, what was the official I know you touched
Speaker 7: on it, but what was the official like years later
Speaker 7: or after? What was the rationale for not accepting this?
Speaker 7: Was there any other reason other than just maintaining the
Speaker 7: death penalty? Was there any other reason why they wouldn't
Speaker 7: accept that or investigate further? His claims.
Speaker 6: I al Lare had passed away, so I hadn't given
Speaker 6: a chance to speak with el Lare. And James Fagan's part,
Speaker 6: out of respect for his vose, he just he didn't
Speaker 6: really he couldn't answer that question for him. You know,
Speaker 6: you can surmise it was probably politically driven that they
Speaker 6: wanted to They wanted to show that you had this
Speaker 6: serial killer in the area, and you know, we're going
Speaker 6: to get the death penalty. Maybe maybe there was some
Speaker 6: concern with how many victims there were, what that would
Speaker 6: do to the community. That's all speculation. I couldn't get
Speaker 6: anyone to tell me definitively why that decision was made.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's interesting. At the trial you write too that
Speaker 7: the lawyer just doing his job there, Lou Diamond. His
Speaker 7: strategy was to discredit the witnesses like Teresa that went
Speaker 7: to trial and discredit them through their use of drugs
Speaker 7: and tried to attack their character, didn't he m.
Speaker 6: Exactly. And you know there's a popular you know, uh
Speaker 6: saying in police work, you know, method of operation a
Speaker 6: m o U. Serial killers will have a certain methodology. Uh,
Speaker 6: prosecute us have have the same and so the defense attorneys.
Speaker 6: And that's that's right out of the playbook. This credit
Speaker 6: has credit your witnesses, and that's it. He and he
Speaker 6: played it to the tay and that's exactly what he
Speaker 6: tried to do.
Speaker 7: Now you follow bigan Wald into prison, how does he
Speaker 7: fare in prison? And what ultimately happens one day there?
Speaker 6: Uh what what do you mean by what happens one day?
Speaker 6: I'm gonna sure where you're going with with that.
Speaker 7: He dies in prison? He dies in prison in two
Speaker 7: thousand and eight from cancer and kidney failure.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, okay, Well he you know, that's a familiar
Speaker 6: environment to big world. He spent he spent years in
Speaker 6: uh you know, Trenton State. So he's he's back on
Speaker 6: on familiar, familiar grounds and to some extent, I'm sure
Speaker 6: that had some therapeutic healing for him. Uh, these these control,
Speaker 6: these these desires that he had that he couldn't control
Speaker 6: on the outside. Uh were were forced, uh forced into compliance.
Speaker 6: So I'm sure to some extent that uh that provided
Speaker 6: some uh some mental therapy for him in terms of
Speaker 6: at least he was to control his desires that he
Speaker 6: had he couldn't, He couldn't, he couldn't fulfill. Prison is
Speaker 6: a is a is a tough place to be. You
Speaker 6: have to exert your authority. You have to exert your presence,
Speaker 6: and you have to you have to the standard, if
Speaker 6: you will, on who you are and what behavior you'll
Speaker 6: accept and what behavior you won't accept, to know in
Speaker 6: order to survive in that environment, he had to let
Speaker 6: you know who he was, and he was fully capable
Speaker 6: of doing that. And anyone who knew Richard big Wood
Speaker 6: knew that he was. He was crazy, and it was
Speaker 6: you know, he would he would kill you if you
Speaker 6: had to. And when he said leave me alone, I'm
Speaker 6: going to kill you, it was not an idle threat.
Speaker 6: But as time went on and as he grew old
Speaker 6: behind those steel bars, if you will, uh, he mellowed out.
Speaker 6: He worked in the work workshop, UH smoked heavily.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 6: I actually interviewed a couple uh prison guards there. He said,
Speaker 6: his his fell would be his cell would be you know,
Speaker 6: look like London with the with the cigarette smoke, smoke,
Speaker 6: and he'd be sitting there. And ultimately he ended up
Speaker 6: dying of cancer. Yeah, two thousand and right.
Speaker 7: Two. Yeah, And you write that his wife and daughter,
Speaker 7: as far as you know, never came to visit. Interesting too,
Speaker 7: in the in the near the end of the book,
Speaker 7: you write about that Prosecutor Fagan went to see beigan
Speaker 7: Wald to see if he would confess what was what
Speaker 7: was his response?
Speaker 6: He let the Richard Big Big Wald, well there was
Speaker 6: there was two times that they actually want one one
Speaker 6: time they because I think HBO had approached him on
Speaker 6: doing doing a documentary or a movie on it, and
Speaker 6: he wanted nothing to do with that. And then when
Speaker 6: Fagan sat with him and said, listen, you got you
Speaker 6: know you're in here, you're hearing here for life. We
Speaker 6: can we can close out some cases, we can give
Speaker 6: some closure to some families. You can, you can do
Speaker 6: some good. Can you help us out here? Wanted nothing
Speaker 6: to do with it. He wouldn't he he would not
Speaker 6: co operate. And he and that's the mystery with Richard
Speaker 6: began Wald. His he's really his method of operation. Operation
Speaker 6: we know anecdotally and on with his thrill killings, but
Speaker 6: his other killings, you have, we have no idea because
Speaker 6: those people that were associated with him would end up dying.
Speaker 6: And then we know one person, John Patrol, who was
Speaker 6: a criminal colleague of his, ended up getting killed by
Speaker 6: Richard Bigenwall back in seventy eight. And they found his
Speaker 6: body and well they found his body, not his head,
Speaker 6: and they did that in such a way that they
Speaker 6: couldn't even connect it to him because of their rush
Speaker 6: to to to recover the body. It just it just
Speaker 6: wasn't done well. But he he he is responsible for
Speaker 6: killing John Patrol.
Speaker 4: So that.
Speaker 6: That was that was Richard Biganwall if and that's that
Speaker 6: was the fear that Terrefa had that she was going
Speaker 6: to disappear, And that was the fear that eventually Darryl
Speaker 6: Fitzgerald would have had that, you know, either going to
Speaker 6: have to kill BigGAN World or get out of town
Speaker 6: because he's going to kill you. He doesn't leave any
Speaker 6: of his any witnesses, if you will absolutely now the
Speaker 6: fact that we didn't just one other thing we didn't
Speaker 6: mention real quick is William Ward He shot and killed
Speaker 6: William Ward in front of a few people out out
Speaker 6: in front of his apartment, and no one came forward
Speaker 6: because he said, if you come forward, I'm going to
Speaker 6: kill you. That's the fear that he instilled in people.
Speaker 7: Yes, absolutely, he is a very unique killer, to say
Speaker 7: the least, and certainly fits the bill of the Jersey
Speaker 7: Shore thrill Killer. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 7: for coming on and talking about the Jersey Shore thrill Killer,
Speaker 7: Richard Beganwald. I know that you have other books as well.
Speaker 7: If you could just tell us about those other books
Speaker 7: and tell us how we might find out more about
Speaker 7: the Jersey Shore thrill Killer other than going to Amazon.
Speaker 6: Well, my latest book is called Mystery Millions and Murder
Speaker 6: in North Jersey. It's about the kidnapping and killing of
Speaker 6: Excellon International President Sidney Resel. He was killed in nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety two by a husband and wife team of former
Speaker 6: cop who retired on the disability and then ultimately ended
Speaker 6: up plotting and kidnapping Richard being Wald, leading to his demise.
Speaker 6: And then I had written two books prior to this
Speaker 6: Jersey Shore Thrill Killer, and they were called Jersey Troopers
Speaker 6: Sacrifice at the altar of public service and New Jersey
Speaker 6: State Troopers remembering the falling about the New Jersey State
Speaker 6: Troopers who dined in the line of duty in the case,
Speaker 6: is that the incidents that actually brought to their demise
Speaker 6: in terms of the In terms of the Jersey Shore
Speaker 6: thrill Killer, I have some information on my website about it.
Speaker 6: I'm actually putting together my research archives that eventually will
Speaker 6: be posted so people can actually look at the poems,
Speaker 6: like actual written statements from bayone and all the other
Speaker 6: pictures and documents that I have. So I'm actually trying
Speaker 6: to put together my research documents for all my books
Speaker 6: and they will eventually be attached to my website, which
Speaker 6: is www dot John eourke dot com.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, John O'Rourke for the Jersey Shore
Speaker 7: thrill Killer. Richard Began Walt, It's been a pleasure. Thank
Speaker 7: you very much, and have a great thank you Dan.
Speaker 6: Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it you too. Good Night.