Speaker 1: Summer camp has been a staple of children's summer holidays
Speaker 1: for generations, but it has also become something that has
Speaker 1: cultural ties to horror movies as well. Think Friday the
Speaker 1: Thirteenth with Jason Vorhees slaughtering teens at Camp Crystal Lake
Speaker 1: and campfire ghost stories told around the dim glow of
Speaker 1: the flames as darkness looms over your shoulders. For most,
Speaker 1: camp is fun and these are simply just stories. But
Speaker 1: in today's case, their experience at camp would soon turn
Speaker 1: into a nightmare that seems to fit right into place
Speaker 1: with all these slasher films of the nineteen seventies. This
Speaker 1: is the story of the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders.
Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm uncle, and you're listening to Wicked
Speaker 2: and Grim True crime podcast.
Speaker 1: Audience listener discretion. We're on vacation. We are we are Sorry.
Speaker 1: Did I interrupt you?
Speaker 2: I was about to open my beverage for once in
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't say a word. Go back to
Speaker 1: Silence and Nichol's going to bring us in. Okay, here
Speaker 1: we go. I didn't get to be at Silence before
Speaker 1: you opened it.
Speaker 2: Well you rarely do.
Speaker 1: Wow, Holy just throw in the shade right out the gate.
Speaker 2: Hey, oh my gosh. So yeah, we are on holidays.
Speaker 2: We're actually in Florida, So if the audio sounds a
Speaker 2: little bit weird, that's why.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean, like even like listening to my
Speaker 1: MICD because I tell to my mic like moving it
Speaker 1: on the table. It's there's gonna be a lot of
Speaker 1: noise pollution in this episode, most likely because hey, it's
Speaker 1: not our usual mics, not our usual recording, not our
Speaker 1: usual setup.
Speaker 2: So yeah, well and yeah, there's just noise that we
Speaker 2: can't really control, I guess at the moment exactly.
Speaker 1: We also wanted to announce that next week we will
Speaker 1: be not producing any episodes. We are making sure that
Speaker 1: we're getting everything out this week for regular scheduled ones,
Speaker 1: but we will be skipping and taking a bit more vacation.
Speaker 2: For next week Tuesday and Friday.
Speaker 1: The Tuesday and Friday, so the following days of course
Speaker 1: we will be but just that one week, the Tuesday
Speaker 1: and Friday, we won't be producing anything. Okay, so heads
Speaker 1: up on that. We will be coming back the following Tuesday.
Speaker 1: There we go, And I thought, since we are taking
Speaker 1: a week vacation away from the podcast. We're going to
Speaker 1: end it on a really good one with the Oklahoma
Speaker 1: Girl Scout murders.
Speaker 2: You're just getting right into it. Hey, you're not going
Speaker 2: to talk to them about what we're doing tonight.
Speaker 1: Oh we can. I'm just saying, I just thought it
Speaker 1: would be great to just be like, hey, we've got
Speaker 1: a like massive case before the week break. You know
Speaker 1: what I mean?
Speaker 2: Ben's making me do something against my will.
Speaker 1: What is it that I'm making you do?
Speaker 2: I don't even know what it's called, but it's freaking
Speaker 2: terrifying and I'm so nervous and it's going to be something.
Speaker 1: I need to look up the exact name of it now.
Speaker 2: It's Universal Studios Halloween Horror Nights.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Halloween horrn Nites. So we're going to Universal
Speaker 1: Studios tonight. We're actually, after we record this upload it
Speaker 1: for today, we're gonna be leaving in like an hour
Speaker 1: after that to go to Universal Studios Horror Nite. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great.
Speaker 2: And I'm slightly pissed because yesterday when we were at Universal,
Speaker 2: I would have made you do two rides that I
Speaker 2: wanted to do just in spite of this.
Speaker 1: In spite well, one of the rides I was totally
Speaker 1: fine to do. It was just an eighty minute wait okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I know I would have probably died standing
Speaker 2: there for eighty minutes, to be honest.
Speaker 1: And the other one, I mean, I probably would have
Speaker 1: done it, but I am also a scaredy cat when
Speaker 1: it comes to I probably would have, and.
Speaker 2: I'm a scary cat when it comes to just like
Speaker 2: I don't know, fake fear. I guess fake fear is
Speaker 2: that one? It would be horor yeah, Like I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't really watch those kind of movies because they
Speaker 2: just scare the shit out of me. But I could
Speaker 2: easily just sit there, like on our TV. All we've
Speaker 2: been have on right now is Dateline. I just sit
Speaker 2: there and't actually listen about how evil things are and
Speaker 2: it doesn't really bother well.
Speaker 1: And the thing with these is like I'm not a
Speaker 1: huge fan of like getting jump scared or anything like
Speaker 1: that either, I'm not, But I am a huge fan
Speaker 1: of watching horror movies or going to haunted houses and
Speaker 1: looking at props, prosthetics people put on the how well
Speaker 1: the things are done, how well the actors portray their characters. Right,
Speaker 1: I go into these knowing it's one hundred percent fake,
Speaker 1: so I like to see where I can scale it
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, that costume is totally like a
Speaker 1: seven out of ten. This one's a two out of ten.
Speaker 1: That's not even scary at all, Like you're a joke,
Speaker 1: but your effort into it is a ten out of ten.
Speaker 1: So I fucking love you like that sort of stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I'm going to.
Speaker 2: Just be hiding behind you. I think the what was it,
Speaker 2: the chainsaw punks?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the chainsaw punks.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna like that. I don't like being chased
Speaker 2: or any in any way of that.
Speaker 1: So don't run and they won't chase you. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be fine. We're
Speaker 2: gonna be fine.
Speaker 1: Well, we'll do good. It's gonna be awesome. If you
Speaker 1: guys have gone to Universal Studios Halloween horror nights, let
Speaker 1: us know, we're curious. We'll be posting on social media
Speaker 1: some of our stuff for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then okay, so back to this case, like it,
Speaker 2: this case is just gut wrenching.
Speaker 1: It is. How much do you know of this case?
Speaker 2: A fair amount. I've probably forgotten some things, but I
Speaker 2: definitely have listened to like a few podcasts on this one.
Speaker 1: Well you have okay, Yeah, I have interesting. I didn't
Speaker 1: know that.
Speaker 2: Well, this is a pretty big one. It's terrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pretty big case for sure. So you
Speaker 1: ready for it?
Speaker 2: Yes, let's do her.
Speaker 1: Okay. So we're going back into June of nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna be looking at a girl of sorry,
Speaker 1: a group of Girls Scout from Oklahoma, and they're making
Speaker 1: their way to the exciting Camp Scott. And for those
Speaker 1: who are fans of the Office, wrong Scott, we are
Speaker 1: talking about a different Scott. Sorry, just had to make
Speaker 1: that joke. This is Camp Scott, which is a beloved
Speaker 1: summer retreat nestled near Locust Grove, just northeast of Tulsa
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma, Okay. For nearly five decades, the camp has
Speaker 1: been a staple of the Girl Scouts annual traditions, offering
Speaker 1: a two week escape into nature. It was a stream
Speaker 1: place spread across more than four hundred acres of trees
Speaker 1: and forests that also included a flowing creek through the
Speaker 1: beautiful landscape where the girls could swim, canoe, It made
Speaker 1: it feel like a secluded paradise just for these campers
Speaker 1: in their adventure outdoors.
Speaker 2: Two weeks is quite a long time, though, two weeks
Speaker 2: is I know.
Speaker 1: I did some camp retreats as a kid, and I
Speaker 1: only ever did a week long and as a kid,
Speaker 1: I mean that feels like an eternity. Well, yeah, two
Speaker 1: weeks alone would be like whoa.
Speaker 2: I don't think they ever really did overnight camps. I
Speaker 2: was like a homebody through and through.
Speaker 1: I just look at it like for kids, like that's
Speaker 1: an eternity. For parents, it's like it's not nearly long enough,
Speaker 1: you know, a right, how about all summer lead? But
Speaker 1: this year, the anticipation of the camping trip was it
Speaker 1: was quite palpable for pretty much everyone, though there were
Speaker 1: a few exceptions. There's one in particular it didn't exactly
Speaker 1: share the excitement, and that was ten year old Doris Milner. Now,
Speaker 1: Doris was having second thoughts as the departure date grew near.
Speaker 1: Now her two best friends would not be joining her
Speaker 1: on this trip. Initially they were going to, but unfortunately
Speaker 1: they're not, and it was leaving her worried that she
Speaker 1: might feel a bit out of place in homesick going
Speaker 1: alone fair enough, Yeah, the idea of spending two weeks
Speaker 1: away from home overwhelmed her, especially without the familiar faces
Speaker 1: of you know, her best friends by her side. So,
Speaker 1: sensing her daughter's anxiety, Doris's mother reassured her that, you
Speaker 1: know what, you can come home early if you need,
Speaker 1: just go try it, and if you don't like it,
Speaker 1: you know what, can always change your mind and call me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm only a phone call away, exactly.
Speaker 1: She was, probably just like, I already stalked up on wine.
Speaker 1: I need to drink that shit, like, you know, give
Speaker 1: me a Lisa night, right. But meanwhile, Michelle Hoffman, who
Speaker 1: was a seasoned camper at this retreat, had dreams of
Speaker 1: becoming a camp counselor this year. She was pretty excited
Speaker 1: with her new role and having spent countless summers at Campscott,
Speaker 1: she had fond memories of her own first trip when
Speaker 1: she was just nine years old, and now she was
Speaker 1: ready to help guide the younger girls through their first experience,
Speaker 1: you know, offering them that sense of like belonging at
Speaker 1: a place. And she's getting to be that guide that
Speaker 1: she looked up to in the very beginning.
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, that's perfect because she, you know, probably remembers
Speaker 2: how it felt and right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was on June twelfth, nineteen seventy seven, that
Speaker 1: Michelle arrived at the Girl Scout's headquarters in Tulsa, ready
Speaker 1: to head up the camp. She immediately noticed Doris standing
Speaker 1: off to the side of the group of girls, looking
Speaker 1: nervous and out of place among all the excitement that
Speaker 1: was going on. Right away, she kind of sensed her onunease,
Speaker 1: and Michelle approached Doris right away with a warm smile
Speaker 1: and offered her a seat next to her on the bus,
Speaker 1: hoping to kind of ease her bit of worries. Right.
Speaker 1: Doris hesitated, but agreed and was grateful at the gesture. Right, so,
Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, I'll sit next to you.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: So as the bus pulled out of the station with
Speaker 1: the girls loaded on board, the chatter filled the air,
Speaker 1: and slowly Doris began to relax, even joining in as
Speaker 1: the other Girl Scouts saying cheerful camp songs along the
Speaker 1: way heading to Camp Scott. For a brief moment, the
Speaker 1: anxiety and homesickness seemed to fade. It was the start
Speaker 1: of what was meant to be a joyful and memorable
Speaker 1: summer adventure. The layout of Camp Scott consisted of several campsites,
Speaker 1: or units as they called them, each named after an
Speaker 1: individual Native American nation. Every unit was set up with
Speaker 1: a tent for the camp So there was the camp counselors,
Speaker 1: and then there was up to ten additional tents for
Speaker 1: the campers. These tents were slightly more substantial for the
Speaker 1: counselors than the other ones, because you know, you got
Speaker 1: to fit adults in there as opposed to kids. But
Speaker 1: even still, all these tents were a little bit more
Speaker 1: than your typical camping tents. They offered quite a bit
Speaker 1: more as far as shelter from the elements. It's not
Speaker 1: something that you buy from Walmart Go camping, and it's
Speaker 1: just flimsy's little thing. Right. This was on a wooden
Speaker 1: platform and enclosed with canvas walls. So these are canvas
Speaker 1: tents that they're actually sleeping in.
Speaker 2: Kind of like glamping. They were glamping.
Speaker 1: They were probably glamping to a certain degree, but this
Speaker 1: is also the seventies. Yeah, yeah, Now, the tents would
Speaker 1: accommodate up to four campers each on this wooden platform,
Speaker 1: and there was wooden cots that were serving as bets.
Speaker 1: The walls of the tent could be unzipped and rolled
Speaker 1: up to provide easy access inside or you know, easy
Speaker 1: ventilation even if you need it right. Each girl scout
Speaker 1: had been assigned to a tent. Doris, we're sharing a
Speaker 1: tent in Tent number eight with two other girls, nine
Speaker 1: year old Michelle Goose and eight year old Lorie Farmer.
Speaker 1: As the first night of the camp began, the girls
Speaker 1: gathered in their tent while the storm began to roll in.
Speaker 1: The rain intensified with thunder echoing through the distance, but Doris, Michelle,
Speaker 1: and Laurie were settling in comfortably. After the day of activity.
Speaker 2: That's a shit time for a storm, hey, the first
Speaker 2: night when everyone's a little bit anxious already.
Speaker 1: Definitely that it's just going.
Speaker 2: To roll in.
Speaker 1: I don't think the storm was like anything wild by anything,
Speaker 1: but I do think there was some rain, a little
Speaker 1: bit of thunder in the distance kind of you know,
Speaker 1: but it definitely sets an atmosphere for sure, and puts
Speaker 1: you a bit more uneasy. Now. The tents were arranged
Speaker 1: in a bit of a semicircle situation, so the counselors
Speaker 1: can keep an eye on each of the girl's tents,
Speaker 1: but Tent number eight, the one that Doris was in,
Speaker 1: was the farthest from the councilor's quarters and was kind
Speaker 1: of tucked behind the showerhouse, making it more isolated from
Speaker 1: the other ones. Now, before the campers turned in for
Speaker 1: the night, several counselors made their rounds to check in
Speaker 1: the girls, as per usual. Among them was Michelle, as
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, the same counselor who had comforted
Speaker 1: Doris on the bus ride to camp. She was concerned
Speaker 1: for Michelle. She wanted to check in on her and
Speaker 1: make sure everything was good, so she ensured that she
Speaker 1: made her way over to Tent number eight and peeked
Speaker 1: inside to check. She found all three girls were already
Speaker 1: fast asleep, exhausted from the days excitement okay yeah. Relieved
Speaker 1: that Dora seemed to have settled in made some new
Speaker 1: friends along the way, Michelle left the tent and returned
Speaker 1: to her own. This night, though starting out perfectly, was
Speaker 1: about to be far from what anyone had expected. Because
Speaker 1: none of the campers or counselors knew the strange occurrences
Speaker 1: that had been happening at Camp Scott in the months
Speaker 1: leading up to that night.
Speaker 2: Oh man, okay, you've already surprised me with two things.
Speaker 1: Oh and what's that?
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't realize this happened in the seventies for
Speaker 2: some reason. I thought it was more recent.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: And then I didn't also realize that shit went down
Speaker 2: on the first night. But maybe it doesn't. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but uh, I thought, yeah, okay, I'm forgetting a little
Speaker 2: bits here.
Speaker 1: Well, it does go down on the first.
Speaker 2: Night, really, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: So in the weeks leading up to this faithful night,
Speaker 1: several councilors at Camp Scott had reported hearing strange noises
Speaker 1: coming from the dense wood surrounding the camp. These weren't
Speaker 1: the usual sounds of wildlife, you know, an owl hooting,
Speaker 1: or you know the clear signs of a fox running
Speaker 1: through the bush, maybe even a bear cracking sticks. I
Speaker 1: don't know. These are different sounds of what you could
Speaker 1: typically expect. These ones just seemed off, unfamiliar and unsettling.
Speaker 1: One male counselor even discovered his tents slashed open by
Speaker 1: what appeared to be a sharp object. There were also
Speaker 1: frequent complaints of campers and food and personal belongings disappearing
Speaker 1: from their tents. Though these incidents were initially brushed off
Speaker 1: as a work of wild animals or natural honease of
Speaker 1: being in a remote setting, you know, all those sort
Speaker 1: of things, there was a bit more that was going on,
Speaker 1: and even more settling. Some staff members had even spotted
Speaker 1: a strange man lingering around the campgrounds in the weeks
Speaker 1: leading up to this specific event.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a little bit more than just a bit unsettling, well,
Speaker 2: very unsettling.
Speaker 1: It could be, and it also couldn't be. What if
Speaker 1: it's just an individual who's hiking through the area.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like maybe he just moved to the area, I
Speaker 2: guess or something and like exploring on his own exactly.
Speaker 1: It's not like there's really a camp going on at
Speaker 1: the moment. In many of these cases, it's counselor trainings
Speaker 1: and stuff, you know. Events. This man's behavior didn't seem alarming,
Speaker 1: he was polite in any encounters, He didn't cause any trouble,
Speaker 1: so none of the sightings were really reported. Okay, just
Speaker 1: four days before the Girl Scout session began, Camp Scott
Speaker 1: director Richard Day did have an encounter with him while
Speaker 1: out walking about four miles from the camp, he met
Speaker 1: a tall man who asked him where he could find
Speaker 1: a nearby creek to fill up a bucket of water.
Speaker 1: Richard gave him directions, and though the interaction was brief,
Speaker 1: that was about that.
Speaker 2: M okay, that seems I ass relative late normal.
Speaker 1: Harmless, right, yeah yeah so. Yet one incident did stand
Speaker 1: out from the rest and shook the camp to its core.
Speaker 1: During a training weekend for cadets earlier that spring, one
Speaker 1: of the older campers returned to their tent to find
Speaker 1: that someone had drummaged through their belongings and stole all
Speaker 1: their food. In place of the missing items, a note
Speaker 1: had been left inside an empty box of donuts. The
Speaker 1: note was written on pages torn from a small notebook,
Speaker 1: and on the first three pages the word kill had
Speaker 1: been scrawled repeatedly.
Speaker 2: Oh jeez.
Speaker 1: The final page carried an even more disturbing message, we
Speaker 1: are on a mission to kill three girls in one tent.
Speaker 2: Oh dang. I thought it was going to be like
Speaker 2: a little note that said like, sorry, we're really hungry,
Speaker 2: thanks for your food or something, but not so much.
Speaker 1: Definitely not now. One of the campers present during that
Speaker 1: weekend was deeply disturbed by this note and quickly brought
Speaker 1: the brought it to the attention of the camp director.
Speaker 1: Despite the frightening tone of this message and the questionable
Speaker 1: intent behind it, the incident was ultimately dismissed as a
Speaker 1: cruel prank.
Speaker 2: And I mean, that is hard. It probably should be reported.
Speaker 2: But also it's like, I mean, how much can you
Speaker 2: take it at face value? Right?
Speaker 1: Exactly? And there was a couple different reports that I
Speaker 1: read of some campers taking responsibility for writing these notes. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm unsure on the accuracy of those accounts, but there
Speaker 1: are some accounts out there of talking about.
Speaker 2: That, okay.
Speaker 1: So regardless of it, if someone did take accountability or not,
Speaker 1: it was dismissed as a prank either way. Now, let's
Speaker 1: assume it's a prank, okay, it seemed like a harmless
Speaker 1: yet distasteful joke if it is a camper just writing that, right.
Speaker 1: But in Hindi it's more of an ominous warning, whether
Speaker 1: or not it's an intentional one or not. So on
Speaker 1: the night in question, June twelfth, nineteen seventy seven, the
Speaker 1: campers at Campscott were restless. The girl Scouts were often
Speaker 1: waking up to unsettling noises drifting through the woods that
Speaker 1: surrounded their campsite. At around one thirty am, one of
Speaker 1: the camp counselors, Carla will Hit, was startled awake by
Speaker 1: a loud, groaning sound nearby. It wasn't the first time
Speaker 1: Carla felt uneasy about strange sounds around this camp. In fact,
Speaker 1: just a few weeks earlier, she was staying at the
Speaker 1: staff house and she had been jolted awake by a
Speaker 1: noise outside the front door, and when she had gotten
Speaker 1: up to investigate, she found nothing unusual and assumed it
Speaker 1: was another staff member moving about.
Speaker 2: Right, And honestly, I was just going to say too,
Speaker 2: Like for the girls, the campers the first night, they
Speaker 2: probably would be waking up often and most likely right
Speaker 2: because it's the first night there and they're not used
Speaker 2: to the sound is exactly.
Speaker 1: It's an unfamiliar area, different sound.
Speaker 2: Not at home.
Speaker 1: You're not at home, you're not with your parents, not
Speaker 1: with your friends. It's completely new. You don't know what
Speaker 1: to expect. Lots is going to happen, right, But in
Speaker 1: Carla's case, before she could relax after this incident, the
Speaker 1: camp dog Sally had started growling and barking outside as well,
Speaker 1: which was not normal since Sally was known to be
Speaker 1: a very gentle and well trained dog, only reacting in
Speaker 1: such ways to strangers and wild animals.
Speaker 2: Okay, oh, I love that there was a camp tool.
Speaker 2: I know Sally.
Speaker 1: Sally would have been my best friend. Yes yet now
Speaker 1: this night, however, Sally did eventually quiet down, and Carla
Speaker 1: managed to go to bed and drift back to sleep.
Speaker 1: On this night, as she heard the groaning sound at
Speaker 1: one thirty am, Carla got up to check things out.
Speaker 1: She stepped outside, scanning the area and with a flashlight
Speaker 1: in hand, but everything seemed to be calm and nothing
Speaker 1: was indicating any source of noise or being out of place.
Speaker 1: Assuming it might just be a wild animal prowling through
Speaker 1: the woods, she eventually returned to her tent, trying to
Speaker 1: shake off the eerie feeling. Thirty minutes later, a camper
Speaker 1: stirred to the sound someone unzipping a tent flap that
Speaker 1: unzipping was in their tent yep. The child saw a
Speaker 1: figure standing outside waving a flashlight around, and the camper
Speaker 1: didn't feel alarmed though, because it was most likely just
Speaker 1: a camp counselor exactly and the figure moved away without
Speaker 1: saying another word, and that child also drifted back to sleep.
Speaker 2: Oh no, oh, this is just okay. It makes sense
Speaker 2: actually to do this on the first night because people
Speaker 2: aren't aren't you like, the kids aren't used to it.
Speaker 2: Maybe that that's what the counselors do kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Right, like, oh well, I mean, in all honesty, that
Speaker 1: already happened. Michelle already unzipped and peeked in number eight
Speaker 1: looking for Doris.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and make sure that she was all right.
Speaker 1: I'm sure counselors are doing that. Maybe that was just
Speaker 1: a counselor. We don't know.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: At around three am, another girl was awakened by an
Speaker 1: unmistakable sound of screaming. The screams were distant, coming from
Speaker 1: the direction of the tents on the edge of the campsite,
Speaker 1: near tent number eight, where Doris was staying. The camper,
Speaker 1: too frightened to leave her own tent, listened for a
Speaker 1: moment before the sound faded off into the night. A
Speaker 1: third camper also heard a girl's voice crying out in distress,
Speaker 1: repeatedly apparently calling mama, mama, mama.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no no.
Speaker 1: The cries were apparently very desperate, but in the confusion
Speaker 1: of the night, the girls were unsure of what was happening,
Speaker 1: especially like you said, this is the first night.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I guess, oh, I mean that kind of noises,
Speaker 2: but maybe they thought they were dreaming or something.
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. A lot of the campers who
Speaker 1: were hearing this, I mean, they were shook whatever, right,
Speaker 1: but they're just unsure of a what to do, and
Speaker 1: be convinced themself that someone was probably just having a
Speaker 1: nightmare or homesick, you know, or scared, and like they
Speaker 1: want to go home. It's the first night. I'm sure
Speaker 1: that happens quite a.
Speaker 2: Bit, right, they are really young.
Speaker 1: Yep. So after a few moments, these sounds kind of
Speaker 1: ceased and the campers were able to go back and
Speaker 1: sleep in the silence of the night, unaware of the
Speaker 1: horrors that just unfolded.
Speaker 2: Oh man, this case.
Speaker 1: Fall morning on June thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven, things began
Speaker 1: quietly for counselor Carla Whittle vital I can't I'm not
Speaker 1: sure how you say her name, but she was waking
Speaker 1: up around six am, and she made her way to
Speaker 1: the shower block, ready to start a typical day Camp Scott,
Speaker 1: but as she neared the showers, something was immediately off.
Speaker 1: A sleeping bag was laying on the ground, far from
Speaker 1: where it should be in its tent, and on top
Speaker 1: of that sleeping bag was a small figure draped across it,
Speaker 1: still groggy. Carla was confused and approached, and the reality
Speaker 1: of what she was seeing quickly set in. There was
Speaker 1: a young girling on top of the sleeping bag, motionless,
Speaker 1: bloodied and severely beaten. Carla stumbled upon the lifeless body
Speaker 1: of ten year old Doris Milner oyl. Yeah, now she
Speaker 1: was the victim of a horrifying, brutal crime.
Speaker 2: I just have to say, earlier I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: like with her mom, just like give her one night
Speaker 2: or whatever. But now I'm like eating those words, because
Speaker 2: one night, Like, yeah, hindsight's twenty twenty, right, Yeah, well exactly.
Speaker 2: None of these parents would ever have thought sending this
Speaker 2: their kids to this camp would be a bad thing whatsoever.
Speaker 1: Definitely not so. In a state of shock, Carla rushed
Speaker 1: off to find help. She located the camp nurse and
Speaker 1: one of the directors, urgently insisting that they follow her
Speaker 1: back to the scene. Now At first, the nurse assumed
Speaker 1: that it might just be, you know, just an injury,
Speaker 1: perhaps a fall, and that Carla was overreacting. But when
Speaker 1: she reached Doris's body, it was immediately clear that something
Speaker 1: was far, something far worse was occurring.
Speaker 2: It wasn't an old reaction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't just a simple little accident. Chaos quickly
Speaker 1: spread through the camp as the staff began searching the
Speaker 1: grounds for some sort of answers, and it wasn't long
Speaker 1: before they uncovered another terrifying scene. Tent number eight, where
Speaker 1: Doris had been staying, was empty, with blood splattered and
Speaker 1: smeared all across the inside.
Speaker 2: Oh Man.
Speaker 1: As for the two other girls who shared the tent
Speaker 1: with her, nine year old Michelle Goose eight year old
Speaker 1: Lorie Farmer, they were both missing, along with their sleeping bags.
Speaker 1: Their bodies would soon be found a short while after
Speaker 1: after searching the nearby trails. Both girls had been beaten
Speaker 1: to death and stuffed inside their sleeping bags. The camp
Speaker 1: descended into absolute confusion and fear, and the camp director
Speaker 1: made the swift decision to shut everything down, organizing an
Speaker 1: immediate evacuation to get the children back on the buses.
Speaker 1: And away from the unfolding horror. Staff members did their
Speaker 1: best to prevent the young campers from getting too close
Speaker 1: to the area where the bodies had been found, trying
Speaker 1: to shield them from the reality of what really happened
Speaker 1: that night.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean that's traumatizing. But did you say Doris,
Speaker 2: Was she deceased?
Speaker 1: Yes? Okay, no, Well, in all honesty too, this is
Speaker 1: something I wasn't going to include in this. But there
Speaker 1: was supposed to be a fourth girl that stayed in
Speaker 1: the tent with them, but she didn't end up going
Speaker 1: to camp that week.
Speaker 2: Okay, I remember something about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there are interviews with her and stuff like
Speaker 1: that regarding that. But yeah. Now, by the end of
Speaker 1: the day, Camp Scott had been closed, its gates shut
Speaker 1: for good. What was once a cherished spot for generations
Speaker 1: of Girl Scouts was now a spot with a dark
Speaker 1: history and would never reopen. During the autopsies of the
Speaker 1: three young victims, the medical examiner made a chilling discovery
Speaker 1: that all of them were sexually assaulted before they were killed.
Speaker 1: While all three girls had endured several sorry severe beatings
Speaker 1: during the attack, the cause of death varied.
Speaker 2: That's just disgusting.
Speaker 1: Laurie Farmer and nine year old Michelle Goose both died
Speaker 1: as a result of blunt force trauma. However, ten year
Speaker 1: old Doris, the oldest of the group, had been strangled,
Speaker 1: and the cause of her death was determined to be exphyxiation.
Speaker 1: Forensic evidence gathered from inside their tent revealed that the
Speaker 1: entire attack occurred within the canvas walls. The assailant had
Speaker 1: quietly unzipped the tent flaps, entered while the girls slept,
Speaker 1: and inside, the brutal assault took place, leaving the tent
Speaker 1: soaked in blood from the horrific bludgeoning and violence that
Speaker 1: the girls endured. Once the assault was over, the killer
Speaker 1: moved the girls and their girls' bodies and their sleeping
Speaker 1: bags from the tent, dumping them in the locations where
Speaker 1: they would eventually be found.
Speaker 2: You know, honestly, I'm just thinking here, if because some
Speaker 2: of the girls had heard noises, right and like mommy,
Speaker 2: mommy kind of thing. Yeah, Like even if they got
Speaker 2: out or whatever and went about doing something like it,
Speaker 2: it would have been too late, it seems right, because
Speaker 2: this person had a plan.
Speaker 1: It's hard to say, it really is. Who knows It's
Speaker 1: one of those things where there's too many questions to
Speaker 1: answer any of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I feel like they had a lot of
Speaker 2: time and like, I mean, all their actions were like
Speaker 2: already they knew what they were doing kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they definitely did. This is something that
Speaker 1: was most likely premeditated. So with all the blood inside
Speaker 1: the tent, it was virtually impossible for the perpetrator to
Speaker 1: avoid touching any sort of surfaces and leaving behind evidence.
Speaker 1: Smudges and blood patterns suggested the attacker had attempted to
Speaker 1: clean up, but in the darkness of night, lit only
Speaker 1: by a flashlight, it was never going to be an
Speaker 1: achievable feat to erase all the traces. Right the morning
Speaker 1: after the murders, investigators removed the wooden floor from Tent
Speaker 1: number eight and airlifted it to a crime lab for analysis.
Speaker 1: As they examined the bloodstains, they discovered a nearly perfect
Speaker 1: bloody footprint left behind by someone wearing a size nine
Speaker 1: and a half men's shoe. One of the most talian
Speaker 1: pieces of evidence was a red flashlight that the killer
Speaker 1: had used to navigate through the campsite. The flashlight was
Speaker 1: found on top of one of the girl's bodies, but
Speaker 1: despite the fact that a fingerprint had been left on
Speaker 1: the lens, it was too smudge to be used for
Speaker 1: any sort of identification.
Speaker 2: Hey here, I was like, gosh, on a flash eat,
Speaker 2: sure that would be left behind.
Speaker 1: Nope, which unfortunately is a very common theme in this case.
Speaker 1: Because of how wet everything was. Most of the prints
Speaker 1: found were unusable because of smudges and pooling of blood
Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: It's shocking that this person wasn't wearing a glove.
Speaker 1: But we are in the seventies too, right, right.
Speaker 2: They didn't, They weren't really aware they maybe needed.
Speaker 1: To, maybe not as much because I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of forensics were in its primitive states back then, right.
Speaker 2: So yeah, but still it's just like nasty too what
Speaker 2: he was doing, and you would just think, I guess
Speaker 2: that's just my germa for coming out, and he wouldn't
Speaker 2: be like that, right Maybe not now.
Speaker 1: Additionally, investigators noted that the flashlight batteries had been padded
Speaker 1: with newspaper, an indication that the this was not a
Speaker 1: spur of the moment crime, because the attacker planned ahead,
Speaker 1: taking steps to ensure that stuffing the newspaper in this
Speaker 1: battery back wouldn't allow for the batteries to be rattling
Speaker 1: and make any noise to give away his movements as
Speaker 1: he stalked to the campsite.
Speaker 2: That makes sense.
Speaker 1: There were also reports that I read of paper being
Speaker 1: taped across the lens. The flashlight wasn't as strong, making
Speaker 1: it a little easier to be undetectable in the night
Speaker 1: while he can still see and move.
Speaker 2: You know, Oh my gosh, this guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. As investigators expanded their search across the sprawling four
Speaker 1: hundred acres of the camp, more physical evidence would emerge.
Speaker 1: Among items discovered, where a length of rope and duct
Speaker 1: tape likely used to buying the girls during the attack.
Speaker 1: Investigators also stumbled upon an abandoned pair of women's glasses,
Speaker 1: a strange and unexplained fine that raised additional questions but
Speaker 1: potentially could serve as answers later on. Their search eventually
Speaker 1: led them to a small cave near the campsite, only
Speaker 1: a few miles away, and it became clear that someone
Speaker 1: had been living there for an extended period of time.
Speaker 1: Inside the cave, they found crumpled newspaper that remarkably was
Speaker 1: a match to the same newspaper that had used to
Speaker 1: wrap the batteries inside the flashlight that was found at
Speaker 1: the crime scene. The evidence suggested that whoever had murdered
Speaker 1: all three girls had been hiding out in the cave,
Speaker 1: methodically planning this crime for some time. The scene inside
Speaker 1: the cave indicated that the killer also knew the police
Speaker 1: would eventually uncover the hideout, because scrawled across the cave
Speaker 1: wall was a chilling message that read quote, the killer
Speaker 1: was here. Bye bye fools.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this guy's a piece of work.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Below the taunting message were the numbers seventy seven
Speaker 1: dash six dash seventeen, written in a format commonly used
Speaker 1: by prisoners to indicate dates. So that would be nineteen
Speaker 1: nineth sorry, nineteen seventy seven, the sixth month, seventeenth day.
Speaker 2: Okay, so they were probably thinking that he was already
Speaker 2: a criminal.
Speaker 1: Potentially, yes, right, yeah, But I.
Speaker 2: Mean other people could be using that date without necessarily
Speaker 2: meaning they've been in prison exactly.
Speaker 1: It's just one of those things that's really commonly used
Speaker 1: by prison inmates. Okay, So they had some evidence, but
Speaker 1: no indication of who they were looking for specifically, since
Speaker 1: they were lacking eyewitnesses, they like someone who could actually
Speaker 1: identify a perpetrator. The police were left pouring over lists
Speaker 1: of local individuals with criminal records, specifically in men, because hey,
Speaker 1: you know, this is a little bit more like there's
Speaker 1: sexual assault going on. The men's size point nine, so
Speaker 1: it's easy to assume it was a male in this
Speaker 1: instant except for.
Speaker 2: Those were the female glasses.
Speaker 1: Except for the female glasses, you're correct, Yeah, But desperately
Speaker 1: searching for any possible connection for the murders, they were
Speaker 1: just doing what they can to find any sort of
Speaker 1: individual within these criminal records. Among the name that stood out,
Speaker 1: the investigators found a man by an individual named Jean
Speaker 1: Leroy Hart, a thirty three year old prisoner escapee with
Speaker 1: a violent criminal history. Now, Gene had previously been convicted
Speaker 1: of kidnapping and raping two pregnant women. Despite the verity
Speaker 1: of this offense, he was paroled early, only to be
Speaker 1: reincarcerated after being caught for burglary in nineteen thirty three,
Speaker 1: ge managed to escape from prison, and by nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: seven he had been on the run for four years.
Speaker 1: And now Gene became the prime suspect in this case.
Speaker 2: Okay, did you say sorry? He escaped nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 1: Yes, in nineteen seventy three, he was at first.
Speaker 2: That he said thirty three, And now I was just like,
Speaker 2: where are we here?
Speaker 1: Okay, if I said thirty three, my apologies.
Speaker 2: Could have been me miss hearing.
Speaker 1: Nineteen seventy three, he escaped, and it's now nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 1: so it's been four years and they still don't know
Speaker 1: where he is.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a long time to get away with it.
Speaker 1: Hey, it is now. It wasn't just assuming that he
Speaker 1: was the killer, though, just looking through a list and
Speaker 1: being like, this guy could be it. It wasn't that
Speaker 1: because there was a critical piece of evidence that was
Speaker 1: pointing towards Gene, because there was the discovery of two
Speaker 1: photographs in the cave where the killer had clearly been
Speaker 1: hiding out right. Initially, law enforcement mistakenly reported that the
Speaker 1: photos had been found near the victim of the bodies,
Speaker 1: but later Claire that it was actually in the cave
Speaker 1: where these photos were found, away from the crime scene.
Speaker 1: But forensic analysis revealed that these photographs had been developed
Speaker 1: at the Granite Reformatory Photo Lab, the same place where
Speaker 1: Jane had worked during his time in prison. Really, so
Speaker 1: Gene is directly linked not to these photos, but to
Speaker 1: the lab where they were developed.
Speaker 2: Huh that you think that would actually lower like the
Speaker 2: pool of potential suspects, say.
Speaker 1: It definitely could.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: Okay, So this is only circumstantial evidence, but it is
Speaker 1: some evidence. So with the announcement of Gene as their
Speaker 1: prime suspect, it it sparked significant controversy. Much of the
Speaker 1: evidence linking him to the murders, as I already mentioned,
Speaker 1: was circumstantial, which including the photos, and many within the
Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation, which Gene was a member, believe the investigation
Speaker 1: faced racial profiling. They felt that local law enforcement had
Speaker 1: unfairly focused on him because of his heritage rather solely
Speaker 1: on evidence. They're only chasing him right now because of
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence, and they're assuming him and it is racial profiling.
Speaker 1: That hey, that totally makes sense. You got some points there.
Speaker 1: But despite the public's backlash, though, authorities remained confident that
Speaker 1: their suspect was Gene and launched a massive manhunt to
Speaker 1: capture him. I mean, in all honesty, whether he's a
Speaker 1: suspect or not, he's still an escaped convict and kind
Speaker 1: of needs to return behind bars, just saying that.
Speaker 2: That's very true. I also think though sometimes in these
Speaker 2: cases they get like an idea in their their head, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, but with this kind of evidence that they're finding,
Speaker 2: like the photos and stuff, and then they just run
Speaker 2: with it and kind of have their blinders onto that,
Speaker 2: like you do hear that happening?
Speaker 1: Oh, one hundred percent. So it is definitely a possibility now.
Speaker 1: On June twenty fourth, nineteen seventy seven, hundreds of volunteers
Speaker 1: assisted in combing through a four mile area near the camp.
Speaker 1: The search, however, proved fruitless, and just two days after
Speaker 1: the search was called off for months, Gene was nowhere
Speaker 1: to be found, frustrating investigators and the community alike. On
Speaker 1: April sixth, nineteen seventy eight, almost a year after the murders,
Speaker 1: a promising tip came into the Oklahoma Oklahoma State Bureau
Speaker 1: of Investigation. The investigators had received numerous leads that led nowhere.
Speaker 1: They followed up on this one, which directed them to
Speaker 1: a remote location in Crookston Hills, over forty miles or
Speaker 1: sixty five kilometers from Camp Scott. At four fifteen pm,
Speaker 1: eight law enforcement agents stormed the property of this isolated area,
Speaker 1: inside the home of a local Cherokee medicine man, they
Speaker 1: finally found their elusive suspect, Jean Leroy Hart, and he
Speaker 1: was immediately taken into custody. The sheriff leading the investigation
Speaker 1: was unwavering in his belief, publicly declaring that he was
Speaker 1: quote one thousand percent certain that Jean le Roy Hart
Speaker 1: was the killer.
Speaker 2: Wo wow, very strongly, very strongly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One striking detail stood out to all eight of the
Speaker 1: officers who arrested Jeane that day. He was wearing a
Speaker 1: distinctive pair of women's glasses.
Speaker 2: Oh shit.
Speaker 1: This was significant because in his previous convictions for sexual assault,
Speaker 1: during which he had reported sorry, had been reported by
Speaker 1: both victims to have removed their eyeglasses and tried them on.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: Also accompanying the fact of abandoned pair of women's glasses
Speaker 1: near camps score right.
Speaker 2: What size or shoes? Nine and a half?
Speaker 1: We'll get to that, okay. As the trial approached, public
Speaker 1: interest in the case reignited across Oklahoma. Because it has
Speaker 1: been basically a year by now, the media, which had
Speaker 1: once quieted down after its initial frenzy, now swarmed back
Speaker 1: to cover the proceedings. The case drew sharp divisions among
Speaker 1: the public. Some convinced that Jane was guilty, and others
Speaker 1: believed that he was a victim of racial profiling, with
Speaker 1: police targeting him because he is a member of the
Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation. Both sides waited with baitless breath to see
Speaker 1: the outcome of the trial. In nineteen seventy nine, twenty
Speaker 1: months after the murders, the trial began. Jean Leroy Hart
Speaker 1: was represented by Garvin A. Isaacs, and Jean wasted no
Speaker 1: time in asserting his innocence. In fact, his first words
Speaker 1: to his lawyer were quote, I want you to know
Speaker 1: one thing. I didn't kill those girls, and his lawyer
Speaker 1: believed him. The prosecution's case against Jene hinged heavily on
Speaker 1: physical evidence, and they pointed to items found in the
Speaker 1: cave near the camp, including the photograph like Jean's previous
Speaker 1: work in the photo labs, the men's shoeprint which was
Speaker 1: discovered on the scene, and hair and semen samples from
Speaker 1: the crime scene. However, all of this evidence was in
Speaker 1: fact circumstantial. In nineteen seventy five, forensics DNA had not
Speaker 1: yet advanced to the point where analysis was available, so
Speaker 1: no conclusive evidence could definitively place him at the scene
Speaker 1: of the crime. May have had sein and hair and
Speaker 1: all this stuff, but they could not link.
Speaker 2: It to him, right, But you think at this point though,
Speaker 2: they could, you know, if they were to relook at everything.
Speaker 2: But I don't know.
Speaker 1: We'll get to that too. Okay, But with the hair samples,
Speaker 1: for example, I could only indicate at the time, but
Speaker 1: they were similar to genes. And the shoe print at
Speaker 1: the found at the tent was not an exact match
Speaker 1: for his shoe size.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's that's interesting. But they're also you know,
Speaker 2: it could be like two people, it's not necessarily just
Speaker 2: only one person.
Speaker 1: We'll get to that. So now, in modern time, DNA
Speaker 1: testing could likely approved the definitive answer, whether it was
Speaker 1: implicating or exonerating gene. But it could potentially do that.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately back then we are in the seventies, almost
Speaker 1: encroaching in the eighties at this point, but it's still
Speaker 1: DNA is in its infancy, if at all. So the
Speaker 1: prosecution was simply unable to present any eyewitnessing account, fingerprints,
Speaker 1: or anything that directly tied gene hard to the scene
Speaker 1: of the crime, which only weakened their case trying to
Speaker 1: convict him. Right, defense attorney Garvin Isaac skillfully dismantled the
Speaker 1: entire prosecution's argument. He pointed out the men's shoeprint found
Speaker 1: the scene was not the same size as jeans, and
Speaker 1: he also argued that the hair samples could not definitively
Speaker 1: link his client. As I mentioned, they could only say
Speaker 1: that he was It was a relative close match. That's
Speaker 1: all they could do. And as far as the photographs,
Speaker 1: though incriminating, they are not enough to convict someone for
Speaker 1: such a highness act because hey, there's other people who
Speaker 1: worked there too.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly like you would have to you know,
Speaker 2: without a doubt, know it was no one else that
Speaker 2: had ties to that as well.
Speaker 1: Right And even still, what if he developed photos for
Speaker 1: another person, what if someone paid for what if someone
Speaker 1: stole his photos? What if he threw him in the
Speaker 1: garbage and someone grabbed like who, there's an end list
Speaker 1: of possibilities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely doesn't make it just like you know,
Speaker 2: it's him.
Speaker 1: Does not. So without any more concrete evidence, such as
Speaker 1: an eyewitness test, a pony or a fingerprint. The prosecution
Speaker 1: struggled to convince the jury the reliant. They relied on
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence. Plainly, that's it, and it left room for
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. The defense sought to cast out in his
Speaker 1: involvement in the camp as best as they could, and
Speaker 1: what they did is they pointed to another possible suspect,
Speaker 1: a local convict rapist by the name of William Stevens
Speaker 1: who is a girl sorry, a girl scout who was
Speaker 1: actually seen wandering the camp on the night of the murders,
Speaker 1: testified that a man resembled William Stevens. She recounted when
Speaker 1: the girls heard noises from outside their tent, one of
Speaker 1: them lifted the tent flap and shone a flashlight outside,
Speaker 1: and in doing so, they shone a flashlight directly in
Speaker 1: a man's face. He briefly glanced at them before walking away.
Speaker 1: Though she admitted she hadn't seen the man's face clearly,
Speaker 1: the description suggested he might have been the mysterious figure spotted.
Speaker 1: Really so, she's not sure, but it could be Yea Now.
Speaker 1: Another crucial witness was Joyce Pain, a friend of William.
Speaker 1: She testified that he had borrowed her flashlight shortly before
Speaker 1: the murders for a fishing trip, but he never returned it.
Speaker 1: And when Joyce was shown the photo of the red
Speaker 1: flashlight discovered laying on one of the victim's bodies, she
Speaker 1: immediately recognized it and stating that flashlight is my flashlight.
Speaker 2: The one she worled.
Speaker 1: Yep, she said, it was given to me by my son.
Speaker 2: Huh, but I mean there could be other flashlights that
Speaker 2: look exactly the same.
Speaker 1: Exactly, so again circumstantial.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Now, her son, Larry Paine, corroborated her story, adding that
Speaker 1: he had actually even seen William shortly after the murders
Speaker 1: took place, and he was seen with clarmarks on his
Speaker 1: forearm and neck. He also reportedly had boots covered in
Speaker 1: what looked like could be blood, and he asked Larry
Speaker 1: to use his bathroom to clean up.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh.
Speaker 1: However, William's alibi seemed to hold up. His employer testified
Speaker 1: that he had been working in Florida at the time
Speaker 1: of the murders. He simply could not have been there.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: Eventually, it okay.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people give alibis, though, right because they're like afraid
Speaker 2: for their own life. For there's reasons that you can
Speaker 2: get alibi from other people.
Speaker 1: But this is this is also an employer, I know,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure there's actually records paced up right.
Speaker 2: You could prove it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But also in the seventies a lot of people
Speaker 1: work for cash too, so who knows.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Eventually, Larry Payne, the daughter of or sorry, the son
Speaker 1: of the woman who claimed that was a flashlight, he
Speaker 1: actually recanted his testimony and last law enforcement actually ultimately
Speaker 1: cleared Williams after questionings. Okay, but the defense, however, maintained
Speaker 1: that the police had rushed, rushed to find the man.
Speaker 1: They said, there's another possibility of an individual. They took
Speaker 1: his name off the list far too soon, and they
Speaker 1: were simply fixated on pinning the crime on gene instead,
Speaker 1: regardless of any other potential leads. As a result, on
Speaker 1: the trial, on March twentieth, nineteen seventy nine, Jean Leroy
Speaker 1: Hart was officially acquitted of the Camp Scott murders. The
Speaker 1: jury unanimously decided that the prosecution's case was too weak
Speaker 1: to prove Jane's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Geene Hart,
Speaker 1: despite being acquitted, would still return to prison as he
Speaker 1: had been convicted for multiple serious crimes before the murders
Speaker 1: even ever took place, which.
Speaker 2: Was not supposed to be out exactly.
Speaker 1: It included kidnapping, rape, and burglary and now also escaping
Speaker 1: from prison, and he still had three hundred and five
Speaker 1: years left on his sentence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you think too, I don't know someone that
Speaker 2: has that much time, Like, I don't know. I almost
Speaker 2: I almost feel like they would have. They at one
Speaker 2: point could admit to this, you know, because.
Speaker 1: Lose that's but what do you mean at one point?
Speaker 2: Well, even say they're in prison for like ten fifteen
Speaker 2: years or whatever, like they're on their deathbed or something like.
Speaker 2: I could see him admitting to it at some point.
Speaker 1: That could be a case, except after his return to prison.
Speaker 1: Not long after, Jeane was jogging in prison and he
Speaker 1: suddenly collapsed and died at just thirty five years old
Speaker 1: and suffered a heart attack.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well there you go.
Speaker 1: So he's probably not going to come forward and say
Speaker 1: anything else.
Speaker 2: Probably not.
Speaker 1: I would be really surprised.
Speaker 2: Holy that's karma right there in a way.
Speaker 1: Well, if it was him, do you believe it was him?
Speaker 2: Well, he was still a piece of shit though.
Speaker 1: Oh he was so well for exactly one thing alone. Women.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like that's karma.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't super believe in karma all the time, but
Speaker 2: that that's karma right there.
Speaker 1: That speaks volumes.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. I'm gonna I was.
Speaker 2: My gut is hard of leaning towards no, but it's not.
Speaker 2: I'm not certain. Okay, you don't think it is.
Speaker 1: Hey, we'll get to that.
Speaker 2: Holy shit, I'm going to just sit here and say
Speaker 2: fuck all for the rest of this podcast. We'll get
Speaker 2: to that. We'll get to that. I'm gonna slap you.
Speaker 1: I do believe it was him, do you.
Speaker 3: I do, really, I do.
Speaker 1: And we will talk about why shortly. We'll get to
Speaker 1: that because I do have it written here soon on
Speaker 1: on what that's all about. Like we're literally getting into it. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let me follow the script.
Speaker 2: If that's cool, that's very cool. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, to this day, the Camp Scott murders remained one
Speaker 1: of the most haunting and cold cases in Oklahoma's history.
Speaker 1: The mystery of who killed these three girl scouts during
Speaker 1: this camping trip, it's simply that a mystery. There's no
Speaker 1: conclusive answers that have ever been provided. However, a decade
Speaker 1: after the trial, the case received renewed attention with the
Speaker 1: introduction of new forensic technologies, particularly DNA testing. As I mentioned,
Speaker 1: we would get to that, and here we.
Speaker 2: Are because I'm like, gosh, they have to keep that
Speaker 2: and at some point look at it again. They just
Speaker 2: have to.
Speaker 1: Well. In nineteen eighty nine, forensic experts tested the DNA
Speaker 1: found in semen samples from the bodies of the three victims.
Speaker 1: Out of five samples tested, three matched gen leroy Hart's
Speaker 1: DNA profile three Three out of five two samples yielded
Speaker 1: inconclusive results. Now, holy shit, Now this comes with a caveat. Statistically,
Speaker 1: one in around seven seven hundred DNA samples from Indigenous
Speaker 1: Americans could produce a similar result, meaning that while Gene
Speaker 1: was a strong suspect, the DNA events was not technically
Speaker 1: conclusive enough to prove his guilt or innocence.
Speaker 2: Huh okay. But still still that is definitely something there.
Speaker 1: That is that is strong evidence.
Speaker 2: That's not conclusive, but it's still something. It's still strong.
Speaker 1: Now. In the late twenty tens, Mike Reid, the newly
Speaker 1: appointed sheriff of Mays County, took a personal interest in
Speaker 1: this cold case. See Sheriff Reids had grown up in
Speaker 1: the same area as the victims and was around the
Speaker 1: same age when the murders took place. Like many in
Speaker 1: the community, the case had haunted him throughout his life. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: Now he was in a position of authority that.
Speaker 2: He could do something about.
Speaker 1: Exactly, he felt compelled to take a fresh look at
Speaker 1: this case and try and do something about it.
Speaker 2: I kind of love him. I love this.
Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Sheriff Reid brought up the case to
Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, also known
Speaker 1: as the NCMEC, a leading nonprofit dedicated debt to protecting
Speaker 1: children and solving their cold cases. Right So, the NCMEC
Speaker 1: assembled a cold case board to assess the evidence. The
Speaker 1: board consisted of twenty three top professionals, including fb the eeprofilers,
Speaker 1: behavioral sorry analysts, and experienced homicide detectives. We're talking like
Speaker 1: the best of the best. They represented some of the
Speaker 1: most skilled in the whole criminal investigation world and were
Speaker 1: now tasked with reexamining every aspect of this case from
Speaker 1: top to bottom. The board meticulously reviewed all the available evidence,
Speaker 1: the physical clues, the autopsy reports, the DNA findings, the timeline,
Speaker 1: every detail uncovered about gene Le roy Hart, you name it. Everything.
Speaker 1: They weighed the circumstantial evidence, the crime scene forensics, and
Speaker 1: after their exhaustive review, the twenty three board members reached
Speaker 1: a unanimous conclusion. They were all convinced, beyond a doubt
Speaker 1: that Jean Lee roy Hart was the perpetrator of the crime.
Speaker 2: Holy shit. Okay, well, frick you set me up when
Speaker 2: you're like, do you think it was him? A like, no,
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Well, I didn't have all the
Speaker 2: freaking facts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. That's why I want what your thought
Speaker 1: was before we get into that, because you do have
Speaker 1: the facts. It's just them getting into the review of
Speaker 1: those facts. I have offered you nothing else as far
Speaker 1: as new evidence, only that the team reviewed it and
Speaker 1: their thoughts. Well, I think the DNA thing was new,
Speaker 1: but it's still not conclusive, right, Yes, So while this
Speaker 1: consensus offered a measure of closure to some, it wasn't
Speaker 1: the conclusive legal evidence thing. It was nothing that definitively,
Speaker 1: definitively closed the case.
Speaker 2: It's their opinion, But still that's a lot like that,
Speaker 2: says something when it's all of them, you know, unanimously
Speaker 2: think this.
Speaker 1: Yes. So, with this conclusion that he was the prime
Speaker 1: suspect in this murders, they recommended a further DNA analysis
Speaker 1: to solidify the case. However, the advanced testing came with
Speaker 1: a steep priced. Heag it was more than thirty thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: Neither the families of the victims nor this is a
Speaker 1: not for profit organizations.
Speaker 2: Well that's some bullshit. They should just like someone just
Speaker 2: do this.
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. No one has the money for it.
Speaker 1: The families don't have the money for it. The not
Speaker 1: for profit doesn't have the money for it. The Mays
Speaker 1: County Sheriff office didn't have the money for it.
Speaker 2: I know. I'm just saying, like the lab just like
Speaker 2: do it for free.
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. Later, a funding campaign began and
Speaker 1: successfully raised the necessary funds to move forward with this testing.
Speaker 1: So it did occur. Someone started a campaign and it
Speaker 1: was funded. So while the results of these tests have
Speaker 1: never fully been disclosed to public, in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: investigators confirmed that since twenty nineteen they had access to
Speaker 1: DNA evidence that quote strongly suggested Jean Leroy Heart's involvement
Speaker 1: in the murders.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: According to investigators, the DNA was so compelling that ruled
Speaker 1: out every other person of interest, leaving gene Hart as
Speaker 1: the sole individual who could have committed the crime upon
Speaker 1: their list.
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, I'm just letting this sink in. So it
Speaker 2: would have ruled out that other guy. I can't even
Speaker 2: remember the what the hell his name was, Williams. Williams.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So May's County Sheriff Mike Reid gave a statement quote,
Speaker 1: unless something new comes up, something brought to light that
Speaker 1: we are not aware of, I'm convinced where I'm sitting
Speaker 1: of Heart's guilt and involvement in this case. Despite his confidence.
Speaker 1: Though Jean Leroy Hart has never officially been named as
Speaker 1: the killer.
Speaker 2: Well, i mean like at this point too, he's deceased.
Speaker 2: Well he is, but I mean they can still put
Speaker 2: it against his name exactly.
Speaker 1: And they could have like an answer assolved, you know,
Speaker 1: like they could say that, but they can't. It's not
Speaker 1: strong enough to technically, but it's strong enough to say
Speaker 1: that they are fucking confident.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but confident. But then they can't really put it
Speaker 2: through the courts.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. It's like in many cases, it's
Speaker 1: like the investigators know who the fuck did it, they
Speaker 1: just need to prove it. And it's like, Okay, we
Speaker 1: need certain things to prove it, and those certain things
Speaker 1: are just unavailable.
Speaker 2: Man, this and that, you know, this is just like
Speaker 2: a piss off and a half because this motherfucker should
Speaker 2: have been in jail.
Speaker 1: Right, he should have been, but he escaped.
Speaker 2: I hate that. I hate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the reasons they cannot definitively point
Speaker 1: this murder whole thing it's Gene being I mean, of course,
Speaker 1: a side of the DNA evidence is because of a
Speaker 1: few other details I don't want to touch on. One
Speaker 1: of the most puzzling pieces of the evidence was the
Speaker 1: bloody shoeprint found of the scene. It was two sizes
Speaker 1: smaller than Jean's shoe, so it's not like he was
Speaker 1: wearing just a large shoe. It was smaller, suggesting that
Speaker 1: another individual might have been present. As you already mentioned, Hey,
Speaker 1: there could have been someone else. So there's also Additionally,
Speaker 1: at Gene's trial, a blood spatter expert testified that the
Speaker 1: pattern of injuries on the victim suggested two different weapons.
Speaker 1: Had been used, likely by someone who was right handed
Speaker 1: and someone who was left handed, which could be again
Speaker 1: two different people, someone who's left handed someone who's right
Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone heard that, but Nicole literally
Speaker 1: just scratched her head in confusion. Okay, so I'll say
Speaker 1: this again.
Speaker 2: No, no, I get it, I get it. I'm just like
Speaker 2: processing thinking and what the heck? Okay, because the fact
Speaker 2: the shoe thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So if they are very like solidly convinced
Speaker 3: that Jane was involved in this, then there most likely
Speaker 3: was a second person involved in me.
Speaker 2: I wonder if him and that will did you say
Speaker 2: Williams right? William Yeah, could have been like working together
Speaker 2: and like Gene could be the one that did like
Speaker 2: the assaulting, right or something.
Speaker 1: Is the potential of that, but investigators have ruled out William.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean, if there's two people doing this though,
Speaker 2: and he just William didn't do like, you know, the
Speaker 2: most terrible part of it. Well, the whole thing is terrible,
Speaker 2: but he could have just been there like helping, Like
Speaker 2: maybe they like found each other and they met up
Speaker 2: and kind of become friends and he stagged along.
Speaker 1: You're right, it's very possible, but I don't know what
Speaker 1: the authorities have, but they have ruled him out. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I'm not too certain it could be someone else entirely.
Speaker 1: But so another thing it is, it's certainly possible for
Speaker 1: one person to subdue three young girls without any of
Speaker 1: them escaping. But logically speaking, it would be much easy
Speaker 1: for two adult males to subj do three small girls,
Speaker 1: especially in the dark.
Speaker 2: Like that, because you think more noise would be made,
Speaker 2: you know, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the more you look at it, the more
Speaker 1: you think about it, the more you think two people
Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. The DNA may point toward
Speaker 1: Gene's involvement, but the case is technically unsolved and there
Speaker 1: is no name to a killer. But evidence I believe
Speaker 1: does tell us it was likely committed by two individuals
Speaker 1: on that fateful night.
Speaker 2: And maybe that's why they're not like totally pinpointing Gene.
Speaker 1: Well, what if three DNA samples were conclusive on Gene
Speaker 1: but two or not? What if those two are of
Speaker 1: the other killer?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, yep, But like was he from the area?
Speaker 2: How who elks would you have known there? And stuff?
Speaker 2: Because like this guy's like he's a runaway.
Speaker 1: He's from the area though, at least because I mean
Speaker 1: he's well, whether he's a runaway or not, he's part
Speaker 1: of the Cherokee Nation, and he's clearly being housed and
Speaker 1: taken in by by his people because when they found him,
Speaker 1: he was at a local medicine man's house being sheltered there.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Whether he is actually like a part of this, like
Speaker 1: he grew up or knows these people, or he's just
Speaker 1: being taken in because it's like, hey, you know what,
Speaker 1: we're alike, and you know what we were looking out
Speaker 1: for you. Whether either or is the case, he's still
Speaker 1: being accepted because they firmly believed it was not him,
Speaker 1: and they believed that it was racial profiling while they
Speaker 1: were after him. So I'm sure if he didn't know
Speaker 1: any of them, they would have treated him very well,
Speaker 1: because like, hey, you know what, we understand the racial profiling.
Speaker 1: They've been there, we want to help you. Why wouldn't
Speaker 1: they want to help them?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I would if I were them.
Speaker 2: This is one of those cases that it's just like
Speaker 2: complete bullshit. The fact that it isn't solved, I know,
Speaker 2: like I just this is just one of those cases
Speaker 2: that need needs to be solved, but.
Speaker 1: I don't think it ever will be. I think it's solved,
Speaker 1: but they just they just need something to prove it.
Speaker 1: All it is.
Speaker 2: They just need second or something, right, the second individual
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 1: All they need is a fingerprint. A fingerprint would definitively
Speaker 1: prove if they could pull Jean's fingerprint from the scene.
Speaker 1: That's all they need to say.
Speaker 2: At this point, they're not going to be able to
Speaker 2: do that. No, Like it's done, that's done. Yeah hmm, Okay, So.
Speaker 1: That's the case of the Oklahoma girl scope murders.
Speaker 2: I actually did think more girls die than just three,
Speaker 2: So in my head I had this. I mean, this
Speaker 2: is a terrible, terrible case. It's like one of the worst,
Speaker 2: but I for some reason thought that there was either
Speaker 2: there were more vis yeah huh, well they could.
Speaker 1: Have been a fourth victim.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, poor little Doris. It could have only just
Speaker 2: been two victims, right if she had stayed.
Speaker 1: Home, could have been none if this person was just
Speaker 1: behind bars.
Speaker 2: To sha touche.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So which kind of leads me to think, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: they searched for this guy and found him after a year,
Speaker 1: so how hard were they searching for him? When he
Speaker 1: was running for four years.
Speaker 2: You know, I had honestly thought about that too while
Speaker 2: you were presenting this case. I was like, now, it's
Speaker 2: like a big ass deal for them to find this guy, right,
Speaker 2: so that that's kind of motherfucker.
Speaker 1: That's kind of a piss off and all on its own.
Speaker 1: It's like if you just searched for him prior to
Speaker 1: because they probably weren't even searching for him, it's probably
Speaker 1: just like, ah, he'll turn up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like at that point, they probably you know, weren't
Speaker 2: putting a lot of effort into it. Yeah, huh, what
Speaker 2: a shitty case to research? Was. I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to be able to research this case.
Speaker 1: I finished researching it while on vacation here.
Speaker 2: I know, I was at Disney.
Speaker 1: Like yesterday and Universal the day before, and here I'm
Speaker 1: just like now murder. Although I will admit in our
Speaker 1: hotel here, in our little resort that we was staying at,
Speaker 1: we've just had Dateline on like the entire time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh sometimes I missed cable, but it's if they
Speaker 2: had HGTV, I would be watching that this whole entire course.
Speaker 2: Of course, it's one or the other, but hey, this
Speaker 2: watching dateline. I think I have at least like two
Speaker 2: or three cases now that I want to cover from
Speaker 2: from it being on. So there you go, it's like
Speaker 2: working doing my research.
Speaker 1: There you go. Can we write this trip off? Then? Maybe?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's not a bad idea.
Speaker 1: There we go.
Speaker 2: I was like, that just brought back memories of you
Speaker 2: asking our accountant if we can write off booze.
Speaker 1: Well, it's part of the show.
Speaker 2: I honestly can't even remember what her answer was, but
Speaker 2: I guess I'll have to ask it again.
Speaker 1: Anyways, thank you guys for being here. We're going to
Speaker 1: shut this down, upload this so you guys can listen
Speaker 1: to it and make our way over to Universal's Halloween
Speaker 1: Horror Nights or whatever it's called. So wish this luck.
Speaker 2: Wish us some big time luck, and send us.
Speaker 1: Some messages on your experience if if you've gone and
Speaker 1: checked it out in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm terrified.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll see some of you there. Who knows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you never know.
Speaker 1: You probably won't listen to this in time. You'll probably
Speaker 1: like see us there, not know it's us, and then
Speaker 1: come home listen to it and you'll be like shit,
Speaker 1: I was there too. Yeah, but anyways, thanks for being here.
Speaker 1: You guys are amazing. Of course, as always checked the description,
Speaker 1: dingly do thing down there where you can get in
Speaker 1: full on our podcast and socials and stuff. We've got Patreon, Instagram, website, youtub's,
Speaker 1: you name it. We are going to do a vlog
Speaker 1: of going to this Halloween horror night, which will be
Speaker 1: uploaded on one of our channels there, so feel free
Speaker 1: to check that out soon.
Speaker 2: I almost don't want to do that vlog. I'm going
Speaker 2: to have to like not look like I'm a scared
Speaker 2: little girl.
Speaker 1: Just put on your brave face.
Speaker 2: I'll try try my best
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, we'll talk to you guys later and
Speaker 1: until then, stay wicked.