Speaker 1: What is up, Fellasikos. I am Dampa Valley coming at
you with the one, the only, my certified fantabulous co host,
mister Grant Hughes. We are here with an unpoint. We've
been trying to get to Awards this week. We're here
with an unplanned episode to talk about, not even Giannis.
Even though that news came out. That's kind of just like,
all right, we knew that this was coming. We walked
about the NBA's biggest disappointment, the Los Angeles Clippers, because
what we do around here is just ask questions. We're
just gonna ask. We can't be hell responsible for where
it leads us. There's gonna be a lot of fake
trades thrown around this episode, but we want to know
is it just time for the Los Angeles Clippers to
blow it up? And we're gonna get into a lot
of elements that go into that, But first and foremost, Grant,
how the heck are you doing?
Speaker 2: I just kind of want to answer that question and
it would be like we're just under a minute, Uh,
yes it is time.
Speaker 1: Dan does that They beat the Hawks after they had
three home a.
Speaker 2: Bunch of teams that like the Bucks, when Giannis goes
down just beat the Pistons, Like, what's happened? What's going
on here? There's there's a few of these things going
around where it's like, well, this team is gonna be
dead in the water.
Speaker 1: So is there such a thing as like mid game
ewing theory to where these other teams spend so much
time planning around Gianni's being there and then he leaves
and it's oh, what do we do then?
Speaker 2: And the Bucks are like, oh, thank god, we got
this anchor out of the way. We can play now.
No I the Clippers like. So the news trigger here
obviously is Chris Paul. I don't know how much you
want to talk about that, Like maybe maybe this is
too quick of a dive in, but like what was
your reaction when you read the report of like sent home?
I mean, I guess he reported it kind of right,
interested about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, no one comes across looking good here. The
stuff that's being leaked about with CP three was is
they kept the fact that they were citing how disparaging
he was and that it was grading on you know,
Lawrence Frank and Tyron lou who wouldn't meet with him
and Kawhi and James Harden and all that. What was
he saying, like, you guys are all adults, What was
he doing that? And if he was really saying these
things that are outlandish, do you actually think, as someone
who wasn't really playing, even given your credentials, that you
were supposed to be doing that? But I ultimately came down,
not necessarily on the side of CP three, But this
is CP three. His leadership style is notoriously grating. And
you had him in your organization for so long to
begin with, did you not think that, like, what were
you expecting to do to barely play they and to
shut up the whole The Athletic had the report that
they tried to keep his expectations in check, and I
don't know if he was frustrated by the amount of
time that he was actually spending on the court. I
just from the Clippers end, and I did, to my credit,
I did say this when they signed him. Any did
they actually think it was okay just to reunite CP
three in James Harden? Because there's just some stuff floating
around the ether that hasn't been publicly report yet that
that stuff was really bad too, and so This is
completely to me at the best of the Clippers front
office just really fucked up here because now you look,
now you look, I don't know, I don't know what
the word is, but you've dismissed a franchise legend in
the middle of the night on a road trip. I
know that there were some travel issues with the way
that they did it, and you could say, well, you
would have been criticizing them had they not done it
in person. That's all true. You made it one quarter
of the way through the season and made the decision
before that, before like just deciding that this player you
signed to a minimum contract and is a franchise icon,
the best player in franchise history. Quite frankly, you're just
jettis in it and it was just a bad fit,
as if we don't have a track record of what
Chris Paul actually does behind the scenes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting, I think I do agree that there. If
we're gonna do the blame uh you know, slice up
the blame pie, everybody's got a pretty good share of
it here. But I was interesting your first reaction because
mine was kind of like, well, what we know about
Chris Paul at like is that he's he's sort of
like just known as a as a well intentioned asshole,
Like he just like guys that play with him. I
don't know that he's like disliked so much as like
it's just sort of roundly acknowledged that like his sort
of relentless edge seeking like for everything from like oh,
that guy's jersey's not touched in and like chirping at
the official to like knowing every nuanced rule to like
inventing the three for two at the end of a quarter.
Like all this stuff is like, you know, it's part
of a personality that you can imagine in a locker room,
is just like a lot all the time, right, But
he's also been historically great, so guys put up with it,
and it does come from a place of like he
just wants to win, you know. So I think like
in the language of competitive NBA players, like that's something
they speak like to vary degrees across the board, so
like they all get it. So but my thought was, like, yes, this,
I absolutely believe Chris Paul became like too much, especially
in a losing environment, especially when he's not playing, and
guys are like, you know, we weren't on the Lob
City Clippers. What gives you the right and you're not
playing like why and especially so that's part of it,
but it's also just like what was something different must
have happened, Like this cannot have been the same Chris
Paul that was in San Antonio and played every game
last year, right, Like you didn't hear anything about this
type of behavior there. And it's not like the Spurs
were a great team last year. They weren't this you know,
bad or this like sort of hopeless. But I wonder
what was different? And to me, it kind of comes
back to, like what I fixated on a lot was
the relationship with TYLERU and maybe maybe this was a
situation where like because like they're practically peers, you know,
Paul given his experience and Tyler like maybe it got
to a point where it was just like Chris Paul
sort of thought he was actually the coach here or
was like acting in a way that was like costing agency,
you know, from the people that needed it.
Speaker 1: But when Kyrie made that quip, when Steve Nash was
all the coach, we're a collective, We're.
Speaker 2: A collective, Yeah, it made me wonder like or just
sort of like I trained my my sort of like
curiosity more towards that aspect of it, like because this
is you can deal with Chris Paul being how Chris
Paul is, but maybe just the fact of him not
being on speaking terms with his head coach and him
someone I think one of the reports that he was
doing a lot of locker room lawyering, maybe there was
like it's not a power struggle per se, but it
was like our leadership dynamic is kind of wrecked because
of how things are going between him and the head coach.
Like maybe that's what triggered it, because you're you're a
hundred percent right, like to say, as the Clippers, you
didn't know what getting into the Chris Paul business entailed,
like this is he just has been this week's been.
Speaker 1: In the league for twenty years, right, A good chun
spent with you.
Speaker 2: Right, right, So yeah, I don't know. I I I
was unsurprised by a lot of it. But then just
it's intriguing that like what happened, what's different? What about
this situation is so different?
Speaker 1: And I don't think I don't want to spend too
much time on more Chris Paul, but I did find
it fascinating. Was there something too that there weren't enough
guys for him to mentor here? Because when you look
at the Spurs, they had young guys last year, and
it's on the Clippers, it's you know, knieder Hauser. What
is Chris Paul going to do for him? Is it?
You know, Kobe, Kobe Sanders, Kobe Brown, Like these are
the guys that they're going So I wonder how much
that had to do with it. Is there any teams
that would make sense for Chris Paul really quickly? It
almost has to happen via trade, unless there's some complicated
stuff where you wave him and then just convert Kobe.
Speaker 2: But I would say the teams because I think you're
very right about like the way that he is might
resonate with early twenties guys, but like if you're talking
to James Harden and Brook Lopez and a bunch of
guys that have been in the league for fifteen years,
they're like, yeah, man, we get it, Like we don't
need we don't need to be parented right now. I
would say that the types of teams that make sense
for him are ones with a bunch of young guys
that need mentoring. But then why would he have any
interest in playing for those types of teams.
Speaker 1: On because you get to play, maybe there's maybe.
Speaker 2: Actually yeah, playing is the key word. But like if
this is your farewell tour, like you really want to
go just lose. I guess that's what's happening with the Clippers,
But you know what I mean, Like the types of
teams that should want them are the types of teams
that like, if I'm him, I don't want to go
play for.
Speaker 1: To me, there's an obvious team. It should just be
New Orleans. Go back to New Orleans. Jeremiah fears getting
the mentor from Chris Paul. He'll probably I mean know
they have de Jontay Murray and other guard but they'll
probably play. But that would be just to salvage the
situation of the works because I don't Minnesota has been floated.
But is he doing even if he's doing more for
them than Mike Conley? Is he doing more? Is one?
Is he? And then he?
Speaker 2: Ye?
Speaker 1: Is he doing more than Rob? Like you don't want
to see Rob Dillingham's minutes get slashed even further or
Jayleen Clark, I was eating into that just to really
just a bummer of a situation because we didn't necessarily
know this was his farewell tour, and then we did
what for two weeks? And this is like within.
Speaker 2: Ten weeks, and then the Clippers said goodbye.
Speaker 1: So when we talk about the Clippers blowing it up,
what everyone's gonna say, what the comments will probably say,
is oh, they don't have their own picks moving forward,
And I think that's important. I would argue that if
you think this team is not good, you should just
racoup what ask that you can for them and move on. Anyway,
but we have to ask Grant, is there a chance
that they could get their own picks back from Oklahoma City? Specifically,
we actually have some other trades that might get the
other picks back. But okay, see we recorded a whole
podcast about this and it's impact on league parody. But
Okase owns the Clippers pick in twenty twenty six outright
and then can swap in twenty twenty seven. Is there
anything they could do to get one or both of
those picks back? And the framework that you and I
both have sort of kicked around is you trade a
Vita Zubats to Oklahoma City, and then you bring back
Usman Jang And what's the other mid end salary that
we would throw in there?
Speaker 2: Kenrich Williams is the one kenrich Williams suggested.
Speaker 1: So that puts Okase in attacks, which could be problematic.
They can figure out a way to get it if
they're willing to give up, maybe in Isaiah Joe or
Aaron Wiggins in a subsequent trade. But what you're doing
is the Clippers, now this would be the question. It's twofold,
So why do they want Zubots when they have jed
Holmgrin and Hartenstein. Zubots is going to be significantly cheaper.
He's under team control for more years than Hartenstein, who
has this expensive team option that most people for next year,
most people think Oklahoma City is going to decline because
they're going to be navigating Apron concerns after the season.
So the theory would be you get someone who's as good,
maybe better depending on how you feel, in Zubots on
a more reasonable salary, and it makes it easier to
kind of fill in the pieces around them. I think
what get and so what you're doing is planning for that.
I don't know what type of signal. This sends to
Hartenstein and if Zubots is all of a sudden just
on the roster, how do you feel about bringing him
off the bench for this season? Given chet Holmgren's injury history,
may maybe there's just something to that. The other element
of this, that's the obvious one for okay see, is
would it make sense to do that knowing that the
Clippers would? Then I would assume and you can this
is where maybe we might differentiate. Would also attach more
distant first round picks to Zubots because in my head,
it's what would it take to get the twenty twenty
six pick back and twenty twenty seven. If I'm the Clippers,
would I consider doing twenty thirty and then a twenty
thirty one swap attached to Zubots to get both of
those picks back. I'm going to go on the record
right now and say I am absolutely doing that. If
I'm the Clippers. You're kind of kicking the can down
on your commitments. But those two picks, and specifically this season,
because you're already pretty bad, are more valuable to the
Clippers than any other team in the NBA.
Speaker 2: It's very much like what was it Brooklyn in Houston,
like with the whole like the Phoenix Houston Brooklyn pick
interplay where essentially, yeah, Brooklyn did it right. They needed
they Brooklyn needed its picks back because boy, we're gonna
be bad. This needs to pay off somehow, And basically
what was the price was like not quite two for
one picks, but it was close to that, right, Like
so it was Hi, Yeah, yeah, So I don't think
you're off base in saying that if the Clippers are
gonna get back twenty six or twenty seven, let alone both,
they got to put real value on the table draft
asset wise to even start that conversation. And that's with
the Clippers also giving up probably their best like tradeable player,
you know, like just in terms of like like what
Zubots makes, it's like nineteen next year and twenty after that.
So like, as a I don't know where we rank
him in starting centers now, but it's it's it's probably
closer to top five than top ten. It's easily top
ten that kind of money for that player. So like
I'm just trying to draw the parallel between what Brooklyn
had to give up, Like is this enough? It is
Zubots and a twenty thirty and a twenty thirty one
swap right, or actually, do you want to talk specifically
about this package, this first one that you have there,
because you've got three first round which is what's going out.
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, because I think like that's how valuable getting
those picks back. No, I don't.
Speaker 2: Disagree, I just think we want we should lay it
out so it's clear what we're talking, like how costly
it is and probably should be, and how hard of
a bargain the Thunder should drive because they know how
desperate the Clippers are to get those those more immediate
picks back. Right, So what do you want to go
through the specifics of that deal?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the first one would be that the Clippers
are getting Kendrick Williams, Ushman Jang. They're getting out of
the tax by the way, I believe it's part of this,
or at least close to it, their own twenty twenty
six pick back, and then you're reversing those swap rights
on the twenty twenty seven first round pick, so they
get their next two picks back. They are giving Oklahoma
City a Vita Zubots. The Clippers is twenty thirty first
round pick a twenty thirty one first round swap, and
then I had put this in there as just a
I don't as this would okay, see like needs do
you also consider including the twenty thirty two first round pick.
You could protect it, you could do whatever you want
to it. And on the surface that seems insane. It's
zubots and control of three first round picks for your
next two first round picks back. But the ideas the
Clippers would be, we're still gonna be flexible moving into
twenty twenty seven and beyond, and we're gonna get these now.
We can rebuild or be bad for these two years,
get high draft picks in, and we will be better
suited to give away picks in twenty thirty, thirty one,
and thirty two than we would right now. Certainly into that,
I mean, grant, there's the teams that have started they
started five and fifteen or was it five and sixteen
they started? Yeah, there are of all the teams in
NBA history that have started five and sixteen or worse,
seven of them have gone on to make the playoffs.
And that's less than four percent. That's so it's just like.
Speaker 2: It's not happening. It's just I guarantee none of them
were none of them were this old either, right, and
it already broke breaking down.
Speaker 1: Right, And so that's why this is so fascinating to me.
So I'm curious when you saw that, what were kind
of your your thoughts on, Oh, is this too much?
Speaker 2: So if I'm the Clippers, I'm certainly not putting the
twenty thirty two on the table at the outset. But
if I'm the Thunder, I'm insisting on it because, as
I said, I know, look like this is the only
way out right for the Clippers, Like this is the
only way to make the next five years like bearable. Right,
is because you draft high in this one in twenty six,
and you draft high in twenty seven. Probably probably that's
the plan, because you're gonna, I assume, as part of
this whole deal, sell everything else you better you can.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: If you don't do that, there's no payoff for being
just miserable this year and next, and those twenty thirty
through thirty two assets, those are valuable, but that's a
long way off. Like you're you're so you're waiting to
start your rebuild in the twenty thirties, Like, that's that
can't be the plan. So ultimately, I don't think that
this is too much to give up for a shot
at a real rebuild that starts in a matter of
months as opposed to half a decade, right, Like, that's
what we're talking about here. This is the only way
the Clippers can achieve that. So this is giving up basically,
is it their fore most valuable trade assets? Like all
in one deal? I think that's probably. I would be
curious what the pushback is because my gut is like, yeah,
you kind of got to do that if you're the Clippers, Like,
what is the what is the argument against giving up
all this for your twenties for control of twenty six
and twenty seven back? Because I'd love to hear it.
Speaker 1: I'm also curious, is what do you think the Thunder
would they do this without the twenty thirty two pick involved?
And because you could say the Thunder you know right now,
Okase knows at least the two thousand than twenty six
picks should be great. But the thing about the Thunder
right now is they're already so good that the idea
of integrating, whether it's if I don't think. Maybe it's
not aj Dibnso or cam Boozer, but if it's a
top five, top seven guy, whatever, it's almost harder now
because of how deep you are and where everyone's at,
and you're you're not getting older, you haven't if you
this core has not priced itself out of OKAC just yet,
and so the idea of having those picks out in
the distance in years whereas of right now is going
to shock people. The Thunder do not have extra first
round picks in twenty thirty and beyond, aside from their own,
I feel like you could look at that as okay,
see and even with twenty thirty two gone, I probably
would like if I'm Sam Presty, yeah, I'm absolutely trying
to drive that bargain. But because if you look at
it this way, it would be from the Thunder's perspective
as to why you argue it's included there is you
would bait like the Clippers are giving you zubots on time,
like you're keeping the pick equity the same because you're
subbing out twenty six for twenty thirty and then twenty
seven for twenty three. Aready one of your getting zoobots,
and so the argument for OKAYC would be, well, we
know these picks are gonna be valuable right now, these
imminent ones. That's why you have to include twenty thirty two.
But I found it interesting from the Thunder's perspective to
where does it help them navigate, Like it really doesn't
change to me how they're navigating the next couple of years.
If anything, to me, I think that it would just
open up their ability to keep this thing going for longer.
Speaker 2: I think that's right. I guess like part of it too,
is is I don't know the last two higher end
first rounders the Thunder of Chosen haven't still haven't played.
So it's like, so we're gonna have Topitch and we're
gonna have Sober integrate into this thing eventually, plus guys
that we're gonna get in twenty six and twenty seven,
Like at some point there's just not room for those
players now, Like if you do believe that you're gonna
get that this pick is gonna, say, twenty six is
gonna turn into one of these like theoretically generational guys,
like you do give that some real thought. But but
there is isn't there some element of like, as the Thunder,
we can't even use these guys yet, like why and
we're gonna continue to be struggling with how do we
keep this core together and manage costs? And like, I
don't know there's some value then, isn't there in like
you said, kicking the can down the road to where
all right, we're not gonna onboard a rookie next to
start next season that's making like whatever the second or
third or fourth pick like fifteen million dollars and is
gonna be like making mid level plus money and maybe
not being able to play. And we're just waiting on
this guy, like maybe there's some sense and just like
we'll just worry about that in twenty thirty when theoretically
we've got other guys that are getting expensive, like the
flexibility pushing the flexibility out further I think makes a
little bit of sense right from the Thunders perspective, cause like, yeah,
how great does this incoming set of rookies in twenty
six and twenty seven need to be to matter like
at all for this team? Like you could, well they
almost can't. Could you usually make this team better?
Speaker 1: Could you have said the same thing though a couple
of years ago, last year about aj Mitchell, or even
this year about it.
Speaker 2: You're making them back that guy's available in the second
round apparently, so you don't need you don't need to
commit the resources to picking the guy in the lottery
if you can find AJ Mitchell's all over the place,
So you would.
Speaker 1: You have something in our notes that do you think
it would take less? Or is it just going after
the twenty twenties, Like, if you're just going after one
of those picks, is there even a right? I think
for the Clippers too, it's you know you're bad now.
So the twenty twenty six pick I would assume would
be the priority. But if you can get twenty twenty
seven back to where that is, there's this one year
reset basically before you owe the two picks to Philly.
You could consider something like that. But what were your
thoughts on just getting one of those picks?
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's less about getting just one, I know,
I know. My note basically the note is just is
there anything to Hartenstein in the twenty six first for
Zubots like or for Zubots in the twenty six first?
I guess that should say you know what I mean,
It's really more about Okay, So if you're bringing in
Zubots in this trade, like Hartenstein has a non guarantee
for twenty eight and a half million next year, you
need him and Chet, You need all three of these
guys for this season? Like is there something to just
building it around him? Who for the Clippers? He could
just come off the books. You could wave him, or
you could flip him, or you could just renegotiate, you know,
decline or don't pick the guarantee up, don't guarantee the salary, renegotiate.
It is that bigger salary and one that probably definitely
does save the thunder more money, right if we're concerned
about getting them under the tax or under not the
tax the second apron next year, does just building this
around Heart and Seign make more sense? What I just
was curious on like why aren't we starting there?
Speaker 1: The For me, it was just because why mess with
a good thing to that degree? And it's funny because
Kevin Pelton just wrote something at ESPN about how long
it can take new arrivals to be integrated even when
they have an off season, and he like went through
Desmond Bane and Cam Johnson were two of the primary examples.
So I just be nervous about why are we shaking?
They might just win seventy four plus games this year,
and so why are you shaking any part of the
actual core up And it seems like their locker room
would be built to traverse the dynamics of wh we
have Jay will Chet, Isaiah Hart and Steinman Zubo. They'll
just figure it out. They're like, Shay doesn't have to
play fourth quarters right now. They could throw out three
centers at some point if they want. They could do
whatever they want. So you could do something like that,
or you could look at it as why not just
get zubots and then trade him for more first round picks?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And you could then figure out the Hertenstein thing down
the road.
Speaker 2: Can we I really at the core of this whole discussion,
And this won't just be about the Thunder, but we
sort of had to start here because they have the
clippers picks.
Speaker 1: Oh fas just Glora Cumming folks, they're.
Speaker 2: On a flex. Where as the Thunder. You're like, you
could be offered this incredible, like this is a great deal, right,
you just to say it's zubots for like a couple
of rotation guys, and you're gonna get I don't know
more first than you're sending out. And you can say that,
you can look around and be like, we don't need
to do that, or really even more like firmly say
like why would we do that? It's almost impossible for
us to be better? Why would we make any trades?
Like anything we do almost by definition makes us worse,
because like you can't be better than we are if
you're if you want to judge it by like point differential,
historically it's impossible, like no one has ever been better,
like how ambitious are we? So it's just like what
it's just again, this should have been on the Thunder
podcast we did last week or whatever it was. But
it's just like they don't have to do this, and
that posture is why they They can just say give
us everything and we'll maybe think about it.
Speaker 1: Clippers, well, and so man, that leads us to that
we're just asking questions everybody who says no zubots, The
Clippers twenty thirty first round pick, twenty thirty one first
round swap, and twenty thirty two first round pick to
the thunder for Usman Jang Kendrick Williams and control of
the Clippers's next two picks back the team that I'm saying.
Speaker 2: No, if anyone's saying no, it's the thunder, because the
Clippers should do that in a heartbeat, right they should.
Speaker 1: They have to should.
Speaker 2: It's the only way. Like, like we said.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's a viable offer to get okay?
See thinking or no? They're not even having a discussion
about it.
Speaker 2: I think, oh no, I think you do think about that.
You're getting the best player in the deal by a ton,
and you're getting three picks for two, So why of
course you think about it.
Speaker 1: Do you know what ends up happening is that they
also end up getting the Clippers seconds in twenty thirty
one and twenty thirty That's what that's the end result
of all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, but the Clippers do that, should do that
ten times out of ten, just like why the only
thing you can do to salvage this is to get
control of your picks back.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you go in the chat. H then Kutamada
MAJORI seven six seven nine proposed Derek Jones Junior and
Chris Dunn and Kobe Brown for Kelly Olynok and maybe
Carter Bryant. As we get into we're going to be
getting into some bigger name trades here, I would imagine
Spurs shut that down pretty quickly, would be my guess.
Speaker 2: Maybe if if Derek Jones were healthy, because you could
make Yeah, I mean, Derek Jones is the healthy version
of him is just something the Spurs could really use,
just a nightmare wing defender who can make threes, like
they don't. They sort of don't have that guy, but
I mean they're another team.
Speaker 1: They're probably hoping Carter Bryant turns into that, but he doesn't.
Speaker 2: Shooting shooting speculative with him. But he might be a
better defender than Derek Jones R. Right now. That's that's
that's ridiculous, But you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: The other trade they propose is maybe John Collinson seconds
for ke On Ellis and Monk Uh. The Kings might
just be kingsy enough to do that. I don't know
the value of that for I think that helps the
Clippers now for sure. I just don't know, Like from
the Clippers perspective, that doesn't ke Allis is great, sure, right,
I just don't know what that does for there. So
now you have Monk and Harden and ke On Ellis.
It just seems a little I would you do that
as the Clipper? I guess I probably What would you
do as the King?
Speaker 2: I think I would just I think I would because
it seems like Collins is just turned back into a pumpkin.
And then I don't know, Ellis is someone you could
resign and I mean, yeah, I don't know, it's not
I don't know that that moves the needle much one
way or the other. The King, the King's going after
John Collins for it would be hilarious.
Speaker 1: So let's start. I think the two names that you
need to talk about is like, what would the markets
be like for James Harden and Kawhi. Let's begin with
which player do you want to begin with? And then
we could go through some of the trades that we
have for them.
Speaker 2: I think we may as well start with Harden. He's
been playing great and has been again just like I
just never saw this season coming after after last season
felt like an outlier. So I think, I mean, I
still do know we're going to get into it. I
don't know what his value is because he's see such
a singular guy that changes how you operate. That it's
you know, I don't know it. I'm glad you came
up with this one because I don't know what trade.
So what trade?
Speaker 1: Let's let's go back forward, which trade you want to
Which team do you want to start with?
Speaker 2: Uh, let's let's go with the Wolves one, just because
that's that's next. That's first in line here. So here
are the particulars. The Los Angeles Clippers receive Jalen Green
and Bones Island. The Minnesota Timberwolves get Harden and Haywood
high Smith. The Brooklyn Nets get Mike Conley Leonard Miller
a twenty six second that's like the second most favorable
of fifty different teams. Memphis is twenty six second that's
got protections from forty three to sixty so not a
bad one. And Cleveland's twenty seven second that is via Minnesota,
the Sons get Julius Randall. A lot of moving parts here,
but I guess the main things are the Clippers wind
up with Jalen Green as the headliner, Hardened to Minnesota
and Randall to Phoenix, with the Nets kind of playing
facilitator basically.
Speaker 1: I don't. So do you think the Nets are getting
enough to take on Mike Conley up three seconds to
do that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, I guess. If you're gonna nitpick,
that's the part where you might say, like, why why
are they jumping in to help out? If this is
all they're getting? You could find other seconds somewhere if
you needed to. But like Mike Conley's salary is not
just like this crippling thing. I don't I'm not. I
don't feel like that's a hang up.
Speaker 1: So this isn't.
Speaker 2: That's not gonna scuttle the deal, And just for transparency's sake,
you kind of just need another team involved here that
can help out a little bit. And the Nets are
the Nets are are the lucky one here.
Speaker 1: Oddly enough, I like this deal the most for Phoenix
because I feel like Julius Randall actually upgrades a position
of need. They're so reliant on Dylan Brooks shot creation
right now. For the For the Clippers, it's just you're
not getting any picks. You're just saying, hey, we're getting
younger with Jayalen Green and taking a flyer on that,
and we're pivoting away when Jalen Green is healthy. Minnesota
was the hang up for me because I think Julius
Randall has had by and large a really good offensive season,
and like this is just the ultimate Even Julius Randall's there,
so you could say the same thing. It's like the
ultimate form of trust and Rudy Gobert still being just
a defensive superhero, which apparently he still is when you
look at that has been, Yeah, he has been. And
then the Hayward Highsmith element of it, to me is
very interesting just because that's when he comes back, assuming
he comes back from his right knee surgery, that's a
really helpful player, just a three and D wing who
can guard across those two three four spots. I I
don't know who says no to this. It's like, if
you're the Clippers, do you look at this and say,
we're giving away the player who on paper is probably
having the best individual season. So getting Jayalen Green and
let's say getting out of the tax is the endgame.
That's not enough for us.
Speaker 2: I mean maybe especially because Harden what's I'd never forget.
So he's got the player option for next year, so
it's not like but that's a partial guarantee, right, so
thirteen million guaranteed. So the counter might be from the Clippers, like,
I don't know, we'd rather just pay him thirteen million
to not be here next year. They have Jalen Green,
But I think Jalen Green's worth more than just letting
Harden go paying Harden to go away. The thing, I
guess the what I focus on most is the Minnesota
side of this, because one, it's the best team we're
talking about in this in this exchange, and too it's
like Harden is such a he's been so good this
season and would seem to address the issue in Minnesota,
which is just can we get a guy to create
shots that aren't Anthony Edwards self created step back threes
and crunch time? You know, saying all that the Wolves
are fifth in offense, so like, but it is an.
Speaker 1: Over correction because it's James Harden rather than just like
someone who's more inclined to work off the ball.
Speaker 2: Maybe the threshold question is do you do personally? I
think the Wolves offense still kind of is the problem.
Like they've given away a bunch of games late with
just bad execution.
Speaker 1: You're not insane. You look at where they rank an offense,
and it's even just insane. You look at where they
rank in offense and defense and you just still don't
feel great about their season. That's not to me, it is,
but it's like if you, I do think having watched
them a fair amount and seen some of these given
maybe maybe if I'd watched every Wolves game and not
happen to have seen like all the late game catastrophes
in addition to a few like non catastrophes, I feel differently.
I still just think like the esthetics and just the
style of the offense I don't trust in a if
you're trying to get where they're trying to get, which
is like I don't know, they're trying to make the
conference finals at least, right that's the bar for them.
So do you think that's a big enough problem to
justify the risk of adding Harden? And like all of
the trickle down that would occur with like what's Edwards
do now? And like is it a good thing to
reduce his usage? And what is this?
Speaker 2: Like you can make the case that Harden would be
exactly what they need, but you could also just as
easily say, like this is way too disruptive to a
team that's fifth in offense.
Speaker 1: And so you trust the late game dynamic with Harden
more than you would with Randall. And it's also just
randal as we have nas as the Wolves, you have
nas Reads sitting there. You can move j Mack into
more four minutes without him on the roster. This is
just perpetually either undervaluing or not knowing how to value
Julius Randall makes this.
Speaker 2: Let's think too about the argument we're making here is
we're worried about the wolves playoff performance on offense, right,
and the solve is James Harden like the worst playoff
performer among superstars of all.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like the Tyler saying that they need
Bradley be able to return to all defense level, Like
we need James Harden to recapture his playoff, his playoff
for him, I don't we have. In the comments, someone's
saying like it'd probably be better for the Clippers if
they get Rob Dillingham, and I'd agree, but like I
can't if I'm Minnesota giving how good Julius Randall's been
unless you're really high on high Smith or they could
appreciate the flexibility of James Harden's contract being one year
shorter if you even stay like stays that one than
Julius Randalls. But I I don't know giving up Rob
Dillingham and Julius Randall to get James Harden. If I'm
the Wolves, I'm absolutely saying no to that. Maybe I'm
at this point, I'm still just holding out hope that
Rob Rob Dillingham pops at some point, But that one's tough.
I can't go even this one for me as the Wolves.
This is the team honestly that I struggled with it
the most.
Speaker 2: I think the I think that's fair because if you
step all the way back now, if you step all
the way back, you're you're saying, like I just said
a minute ago, we're worried about our playoff ceiling. Let's
turn to James Harden like that. That might be just
the end of the discussion, because it's like his track
record is such that like he's going to fail in
the playoffs, and you're you sort of can't he can't
sort of be an ancillary player just because of how
he plays, So you're really tying your fate to him.
Maybe being next to Edwards changes that.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: The case for it from Minnesota side is just Dillingham.
Just say Dillingham's and like he okay, I don't if
he ever is going to be any good, He's probably
not gonna do it on our timeline right now. By
the time dilling Ham's really good, go Bear will have
fallen off or or will be gone. Uh, Like, I
don't know, Randal Randall is at the apex of his value.
That's another reason to do this if you're Minnesota, like
or at least recently, like Randall's been so good that
like you just you can't bank on getting more for
him going forward. I don't think. But yeah, this is
it's a tough ask for Minnesota to to like upend
things to this degree.
Speaker 1: Let's go to another James Harden tree. We should probably
save the Bucks stuff for the n so we could
talk about Yannis a little bit more. I kind of
I'm gonna throw this one up on screen just to
cause some chaos. James Harden the Warriors grant. I don't
have this in our dock because the framework is basically
like it's kaminga and then it would have to be
basically four for one or three for one and Kaminga's
the salary anchor that goes out, are you willing as
the Warriors? Are you so confused about where they are?
Or is Dany Meltain coming back soon? And you're saying, no,
everything's gonna be. He's gonna be. But the idea of
having James Harden, Steph Curry, Jimmy Butler, and Draymond Green
on the same team, it's not a fever dream so
much as an acid trip.
Speaker 2: And I would kind of like to see it. I
would like to see it just for just just to
see it, just like, what does that even look like?
I think if I'm talking about how Harden would up
end things for the Wolves, isn't isn't it just it?
That's why it's so hard to imagine. He's like, he's
like the most antithetical player stylistically to the to how
Golden State has played offense forever that Like, I just
don't even know what what that looks like. Having said that,
I like it could work, like so now Curry's running
around off the ball and Harden's running pick and rolls,
like I don't know, stranger things have been successful.
Speaker 1: Let's say you don't give up a first round pick.
But you're like you're talking, you're probably giving up too
of Comingo's one, and then you're I think to make
the money work, you're gonna have to give up either
Pods or Moses Moody.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, first of all, Coming is gone anyway,
so so like he almost like yeah, he doesn't even
like rate to me as like giving him up, like
he's basically not there.
Speaker 1: So I thought the idea would be, maybe we get
someone who's not closer to forty than.
Speaker 2: Thirty, right, Well, you gotta you've come this far, like
let's actually let's just double let's double.
Speaker 1: Down on Yeah, so that may should trade DeRose for
DeRos and immediately for sure.
Speaker 2: No, it's not the outgoing package. It would take so
much because I I'm kind of lower on Pajemski at
this point than i've been really ever, are you.
Speaker 1: Okay twice if you're being hell captives everything right over there.
Speaker 2: I've always had questions about him, haven't I. I guess
I did pick him for All Rookie when he made it,
so I wasn't wrong. It's just the fit is just
so hard to imagine that I don't know what to
what to do with it, Like, I don't know. I
have no concept of how that team looks. So that's
my hang up, as opposed to like, oh, you can't
give up all these assets, like yeah, all right, give
him up. I guess, I don't know. It's a fair trade.
I just just don't know how to process it.
Speaker 1: Would you give up a first round pick to do it?
Speaker 2: M I don't know, Probably not, just because this we're
seeing that this team is pretty close to the end
of the run and you can't be in the business
of giving up the way.
Speaker 1: Honestly, if I'm getting Kaminga and then at least one
of Moody or Pods and I'm the Clippers, I probably
just do it, yeah, because like that's just okay. Those
are like some youngish guys. They look I tell you, like,
let's try and see where this leads us.
Speaker 2: Anyway, Yeah, and then you could give Kaminga the ball
all the high usage role that he wants and see
what happens. And Cole I's got to be gone too,
I guess, but that's sort of a given in any
hardened conversation.
Speaker 1: You want to take us through another James Harden trade.
Speaker 2: Let's see, so we're saving the bucks. Okay, here's one.
The Atlanta Hawks are on the line and they're offering
Trey Young to the Clippers, and in return, the Hawks
are getting James Harden Brook Lopez, a twenty thirty first
rounder and a twenty thirty one first round swap. The
question here, I think you're right to point it out,
So I'll ask you Atlanta does deserve to get picks
here because people are going to bump on that given
Harden's age relative to the key piece going the only
piece going back in Trey Young?
Speaker 1: Is that?
Speaker 2: Like, because I I did bump on the picks a
little bit, so explain it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess if you're so low on
Trey Young and you're saying we're not gonna re sign
him even if he picks up his player option, we're
just gonna either trade him or let him come off
the books and leave, you'll take it like because this
would be a weird challenge trade otherwise, Well, maybe it's
not because does it short it shortens your timeline? But
if you don't view Trey Young as a keeper, does
it actually shorten your timeline?
Speaker 2: Doesn't affect it at all like it. It's just kind
of a this year thing really from Atlanta's perspective. If
you think about it and.
Speaker 1: Look, James Harden is not easy to plan around defensively,
but he's just bigger, so he's going to be slightly
easier to hide in some defensive matchups, which might be
worth considering. Where do you land on? Then, I just
feel like Trey is so much younger and I he's
a transcendent pastor, and I just refuse to believe that,
even if you don't think he is an All NBA
caliber player, you're getting someone who's nearly a decade younger
than James Harden. I think you have to give up
a pick man at least a swap to make it happen.
Speaker 2: I think there's I think that's probably right. I guess
like there's we can't know this, but if I'm the Clippers,
I think you're getting one of these picks out of me.
But if it's going to be both, I kind of
want to know that I'm going to be able to
re sign Trey Young for significantly less than the MAX, because,
like I do, I do. This type of trade is
one that sees the Clippers saying we're not rebuilding or
bottoming out, like if you it's like Trey Young isn't
much younger than Harden, but he's not so young that
it's like, all right, seven year window, you know. It's
more just like we're going to try to stay pretty
good and build around a player that, in a lot
of respects, is kind of similar to Harden. I guess,
so the two picks is a lot unless I'm getting
an absolute heist of a deal on Young's extension, or.
Speaker 1: Let's say he's doing let's say he's signing the James
Harden deal basically, or like three for one hundred.
Speaker 2: I think I'm more And again I would have to,
as the Clippers be saying we are not tearing down
or rebuilding.
Speaker 1: That that's why is staying in this Loots is staying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think then it makes a little bit more sense.
I would. I could see myself justifying that as the Clippers.
But if you're you're four for two twenty nine or
whatever the max is that Young can sign for, and
I'm giving up two first, like, I just I don't
think that's a successful recipe.
Speaker 1: It does say a lot, though, because I've been in
the camp of I don't think the Hawks need to
trade Trey Young. But when I put this package together,
my first though was if on the Hawks, I might
just pounce. Yeah on this right, it's kind of just
yolo ing it for this season. Then you figured out
at the end of summer you have these distant Clipper
picks in the offing. I guess you could argue, could
the Clippers turn things around by them just because they
are in the LA market, but they're gonna be out
of picks for roughly forever. If they make this trade, of.
Speaker 2: Course, then you can. You can uh as Atlanta roll
James Harden and these picks. You just got into a
Yannis offer, and then then it's then it's not quite
a yolo for for this season. You can you can
get real.
Speaker 1: No, now here's the real question. Do you trust James
Harden playing for a team that is so local to
Magic City?
Speaker 2: Uh? No, But I want to see it. I'd like
to see what happens. That's that.
Speaker 1: Can I just as a curiosity, can I take us
through This is another unplanned one, But it's straight up
so you don't have to think about it, Jail. It's
again Jalen Green for James Harden, but James Harden is
winding up on the Phoenix Suns, so it's similar compensation
with the Clippers already. See, but is it for the
Suns worthwhile to try something because they could maybe use
the shock creation but you have Dylan Brooks and Grayson Allen,
Devin Booker. Of course, what do you say to this
as the Suns?
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing I want to look up is
I can't remember what Jalen Green's uh okay, So there's
no there's no out. So Jalen Green is gonna make
thirty six million next year and has done zero due
to injury for the Suns this season. I wonder if
if is it valuable to the Suns to just be
able to pay Harden thirteen million to not play next year,
and so they're effectively gonna save twenty three million dollars
over what they would have paid Jalen Green. Maybe there's that.
There's that plus thirty another thirty six in a player
option the following year. There is.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's the best fit for the
way that they're playing right now, but there is.
Speaker 2: My exact question to you is how do how do
you feel about James Harden joining a team that has
defined itself by like maximum defensive effort, full court.
Speaker 1: Pressure, offensive rebounding, ball movement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all this stuff.
Speaker 1: Here's my thing is just the way that Devin Booker
has struggled to score this year. I think he's been
fantastic as a passer for the most part. I don't
hate it because you're getting zero from Jalen Green right now,
and even if you think he comes back, James Harden
is a certainly a more credible playmaker and obviously a
more credible score. It's just the timeline is shrinking. But
as you said, you save money quicker they would even
they would probably end up having to make another trade
after this because they'd be deeper into the tax and
I'm assuming they want to duck it. But if I'm Phoenix,
I might I think I'm thinking about it. How's that
for you?
Speaker 2: No, I think on some level, you don't get to
complain speaking about me and I guess us collectively. You
don't get a complain about Phoenix's total failure to get
a point guard and then turn down like a James
Harden acquisition.
Speaker 1: Right, But then It's like, what does this do to
cong Gillespie and Jordan Goodwin or have it like you
just have to I'm being semi serious though, you just
continue playing ultras Mallvin. I think he was at the
four in that lineup. That's fine.
Speaker 2: Harden would address what we thought was a huge need
that was gonna sink the team, except the Sons have
found a lot of workarounds, and it feels like he doesn't.
He absolutely does not fit with the way that they've
been playing this season, and the way they've been playing
this season is the reason they're like one of the
most positive surprises in the league.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. We have, Oh, we have two
more hardened suitors that are right, this is non your
honest related. So which one you want to go to?
Speaker 2: Uh, let's do the what do we got here? Let's
do the Pistons one. I can read that off here.
So the Clippers would get Tobias Harris Jay and Ivy
Marcus Sasser, a twenty six first rounder with top ten
protections becomes a two seconds if it's not conveyed. The
Pistons get James Harden and Brook Lopez Worth, noting that
in this hypothetical the Clippers do get out of the tax,
and then you might bump on, well, let's get what
do you think about the Ivy piece of it, because
I think that might that might really entice the Clippers.
But you could imagine Detroit not being so keen on that, right.
Speaker 1: And it's so it seems like a lot, but it's
also this for year's first round pick isn't going to
be good, and I don't know if you could do it,
So I guess this would be considered bold. I'm jumping
on this as the Pistons. If that first round pick
is not included, Jade and Ivy still has the mystique
enough for the Clippers to say, hey, yeah, we'll give
up James Harden for this. But he's the centerpieer here,
he's this centerpiece and he's going into restricted free agency.
I guess you don't OURFA is just inherently repressive for
players to begin with, and Jade and Ivy hasn't done
anything that would make you suggest he's gonna get this
mega salary anyway. So if you're the Clippers and you've
viewed as a potential long term piece, I guess the
issue would be it's not paying him, but if you decide, hey,
he's not worth it. We've now traded James Harden for
Marcus Sasser essentially, And so that's where I struggled with
the because I know we haven't been floating a ton
of first round picks here, but I think the Clippers won.
Some of these teams we proposed don't have first round
picks available, and the Pistons are just so good that
giving up a protected twenty twenty six first round pick
like that thing is gonna be especially if you have
James Harden. My guests would be in the bottom ten.
How did you feel about did you expect the Pistons
to be on this list?
Speaker 2: I did not, But again, this is a little bit
like the Suns, where it's like, I don't know if
you're diagnosing the Pistons problems. Certainly before the season you
would have said secondary creation. Seems like they've been again
figuring out figured out enough workarounds with their defense and
their paint protection and Jalen Duran leaps and all this
other stuff to where that doesn't feel like as huge
a deal, but it still is like they still need
somebody better than Jade and ivy or more reliable or
something to be the secondary creator next to Caid. So
Harden addresses that. Maybe the core question then is like,
I mean, shouldn't Kid still be the primary initiator here?
And what does James Harden look like as your second?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Is that is that something he's willing to do? Is
that something he's actually valuable? As you know, like how
much he Again, he's just such a If you have
James Harden, you play a certain way, and like he's
been successful to some extent next to Kawhi, But like
even that's different than playing with Kid because Caid is
just a point guard, right.
Speaker 1: Like that that's it would be what he what he
is because you could look at it and say, well,
the way that Caid was able to thrive when Dennis
Schreuder came in the fold last year, it's just different
with Harden because you're probably asking Kid to adjust even
like even more notches to his game. And why would
you want to do that when he might be first
team while NBA at the moment. So I don't There's
also just the cost is long enough to where I
could put hit the yolo button and I know I
said I'd probably do it if the first round pick
is involved, isn't involved, and I probably still would, but
this is also the type of trade that theoretically could
submarine your season a little bit, regardless of what the
cost is. And then also you're giving up Tobias Harris,
and so what is this doing to your your forward depth?
You still we want them to address that as it
is an upgrade. And so it's a lot of Okay,
you trust in Asar Thompson Ron Holland, but you're not
you know that might be you play dual bigs during
in Stewart, but you're not doing that spot in the
rotation any any favors.
Speaker 2: No, that that's a great point, Like Harris is like
we should make a list sometime of like the worst
player that is most critical on like a good team
because like other than Harris, the Pistons like don't have
a decently sized forward that can shoot, you know, like
they just don't have a guy that does what he does,
which is a problem like you, but you know, he's
he's valuable to that locker room. Everybody likes him. He
does make shots. Like it still is like you trade
to Bias Harris, Like what I guess you're just all
in on the Stewart Dura shared minutes cause you can't
like Duncan Robinson is to me pretty is a weak
spot as it is, like if he's going to be
a four, if you play more Holland and Thompson, you're
you're spacing Hurt. Like it's hard to lose Harris in
a deal, even if Harden does address another pretty big need.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Next up, we have the Memphis Grizzlies,
and so the trade here would be James Harden to
James Harden to Memphis along with the Brook Lopez, the
Clippers twenty thirty first round pick, twenty thirty run first
round swap, and the twenty thirty two first round pick,
and then the Clippers get Jamran. So they ducked attacks
here and they have traded like these three of their
foremost valuable assets because Zubos is on the team and
they've decided we think John Morant is going to be
healthy and is still the type of player that can
spearhead an entire organization on the basketball court. I don't
know why the Grizzlies are getting more for John Morant
and uh Atlanta gets for Trey Young is the one
thing that I can't figure like is is? And again
I was the one who came up with this trade.
Doesn't when you say John Morant's name or the theory
of John Morant, like, doesn't it for some reason entice
you more than Trey Young?
Speaker 2: I mean younger under contract for longer, right, Like that
that's a factor. Uh, it's easier in a weird way,
like the because he's played so little, it's almost easier
to talk yourself into the idea that, like, well, change
the scenery, he'll be fine. That it is for Trey
who's just like we we understand what Trey Young is
at this point. So there's that like sort of unknown
aspect and upside aspect. Having said that, the the Grizzlies
are just they're doing the thing that Atlanta had to
do where they were calling New Orleans like for for
real though, like are you sure this pick is unprotected?
For you just want number thirteen? That bad? Like the
Grizzlies are the ones that are having to verify this
is actually the real offer because so you're bouncing on it.
If you're the Grizzlies, why would you hesitate? You're moving
off Morant. You're getting financial flexibility, You're getting a player
that today, right now is better than Jahn Morant and
might be next year if you want to keep Hardened around.
You're getting three first round assets, and you're shorting the
Clippers future where you're sending Jahn Morant, who might just
be as big a problem there as anywhere else like that.
There's a lot of angles where you win this big
time as the Grizzlies right.
Speaker 1: There is and so always it the Clippers are probably
because what's tough about the Trey Young and John Morant
scenarios is that the Clippers are saying, we're not going
to This is not part of any sort of tear down.
They're not making the trade to get their picks back
from okay see to be outlined at the top of
the podcast. And it's inherently shaky to believe that Trey
Young or John Morant could spearhead your entire future. I
think if I'm the Clippers, I probably like, is there
a level of pick equity that, as the Clippers, you
would feel, Okay, this might be if you take out
the twenty thirty two pick, so it's a pick and
a swap and James Harden and your ducking attacks is
that you know, getting you to think about it or no,
you're just you'd be out on that direction. I don't
know that I'd be.
Speaker 2: Out on it all together. I would try to peel
off one or two of those picks. But just looking
at the offers we've discussed so far, I mean, Trey
Young we've talked about. But like if you squint as
the Clippers, like Moran might be the guy that gives
you the highest upside, right, He's like more more so
than Jalen Green, more so than I don't know what
else did we do more so than that.
Speaker 1: That's I mean, yeah, No, Moran is like Julius Randall
Ran Oh Phoenix, that's morin Is. I don't know that I.
Speaker 2: Believe that there's like a bunch of upside there. But
it's a plausible argument, right that, like you get him
in a new city on a new team, maybe he's
back to all NBA.
Speaker 1: Mike, you get him live. We did the mute thing
there you go. Thank you for letting me know that
so quickly. You also, I don't know how much would
be a consideration. I think it would be more so
for job and Trey. You're in LA you're definitely putting
butts in seats if John Morant is the tempole of
your organization, assuming he's playing, right, So the idea of
John Moran, think about how massive of a figure he
became in Memphis and then now translate that to Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, No, I mean that's not nothing because like
right now, I would say, like the Clippers sort of
public perception is not so hot. There's like not a
lot of likable guys on the roster. I mean they
sent one home, alright, They're alienating franchise legends. They've got
the aspiration stuff like I mean, maybe Morant just as
a discription would be welcome.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about the Clippers' treatment of their stars,
what they did to Blake Griffin dirty when they made
the lifelong Clipper pitch and then traded him. They basically
held DeAndre Jordan captive that one year free agency. And
now they're telling Chris Paul to go home? What's going?
What's that Lob City error? Man? Different?
Speaker 2: And yet they've really set things up nicely for Kawhi,
which again gets you and Uncle Dennis, because that's the
only guy that can make sure the Clippers treat you right.
Speaker 1: We do so. Now I think is a good time
to talk about Yanna specifically, because it's gonna bleed into
some of the Kauhi trades and Grant and I are
gonna have something else that drops that is gonna dig
more into this. But I wanted the two things I
wanted to get into with you is so Giannis. Meanwhile,
I was dealing with a calf stream throughout all. This
is gonna be out for another two to four weeks,
and we get the report from Chams that he and
his agent are once again talking with the Bucks and
trying to figure out a future. That is just sort
of we heard about this over the offseason. Now we're
hearing it again one quarter of the way through the season.
What is going on here, Grant? Because in Shams's one
of the things it mentioned is I had thought Yannis
believed in the Bucks as if I'm healthy, we can
be competitive and we'll be able to recalibrate in the
summer of twenty twenty six. But it says that he
bought into the ideas the Bucks's contenders this season, which
I just never saw. And my whole thing, you know,
the cashtrain is gonna be another thing. Go my question
about this? Why now? Well, if you if this is
how it was gonna because doesn't it seem at this
point we know how this is gonna end. Is he
wants out and it feels like he doesn't want to
flat out say it. This This feels very what the
Blazers were doing to Damian Lillard where they wanted him
to ask out rather than just trading him and did
everything in their power to force him to ask out.
Or maybe it's the same as Damian Lillard in Portland
where he kind of wanted out but refused to flat
out ask for it. Just make the damn trade request
already him put us all out of I don't want
to say misery because people love trades, but I just don't.
I don't understand. I get wanting to finish your career
in Milwaukee, but I don't under stand only giving it.
What was the agreement where we're gonna give it like
twenty games or so this season? See where we're at
and then I'll decide.
Speaker 2: I mean, how much do you want to talk about
this now? Because like we could go I have thoughts
like we can really dive deep into the arm.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too much. I just I
want to dive deep into the honest thing. We're gonna
do that. I'm just like the whole time, like, don't
you find this whole like this season specifically, And now,
how does the calf injury then impact? Do you think
it makes it more likely? Because if the Bucks start losing, now,
are they gonna be more open to moving him? And
I guess this is the framing for actually what we're
talking about here. If you're the Bucks and they're still
Giannis is still conveying like, I'm not totally opposed to staying.
We're just trying. I need to see some evidence. Are
you now working the phones and trying to see like
or does this? Does this make it less likely? If
you thought they weren't gonna move a future first round
pick before, and they can move a pick and a
swap right now, it's even less likely that they do
so after this latest wrinkle coming out.
Speaker 2: I think let's im for purposes of discussion, let's embrace
the fiction that the calf injury means that, well, it's
even harder than it was already gonna be to trade
honest for acceptable value in season. So our move now
is let's wait the two to four weeks it's gonna
take him to recover. God knows if that's anywhere remotely
close to what the recovery timeline will actually be, and
let's try to win this season. And because like we
can go to the Honest and say, again, I'm just
trying to lay out here.
Speaker 1: You're just asking questions.
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to I guess this is like Devil's advocacy.
I don't know what I would call what I'm doing
right now. But the Bucks go to the Honest and say, like,
here's the landscape. Nicks, aren't it. Nix can't make us
an offer we're willing to accept. Sorry, I know you
want to go there. It just doesn't make sense right now.
Nobody else is coming forward with an offer for a
guy that like might tear his achilles when he comes
back like or just like it can't happen, is what
the Bucks are saying to you, Honest, So what would
you like us to do? And he says, okay, well
maybe I'm going to be back after the All Star
break and let's get somebody that can help us. So
what does that look like right's that's the world we're
living in right now, which gets us to a possible
because I want to talk all about the other Yanna stuff,
and we will. There's just too much subscribed.
Speaker 1: I would come back, subscribe, you come back for the
episode that's dropped.
Speaker 2: We have to discuss that at some level of depth.
So the Bucks are we're living in this world I've
just created where Giannis is staying. The Bucks can't make
a trade to move him, so they're going to do
what they've always done, which is go try to find
somebody risky as he needs to be to make this
year's Bucks as close to a contender as possible. James
hart entered James Harden. The Clippers receive Kyle Kuzma, Gary Harris,
Kevin Porter Junior, a twenty thirty first round swap, which
is the less favorable of Milwaukee and Portland. Any twenty
thirty one first round pick. You can make that twenty
thirty two if you want. The Bucks can only trade
one of those two Milwaukee gets James Harden. I mean
Hardin would address a few things, uh, namely someone to
create other than Yiannis. That's less of a concern now
that Ryan Rollins is really good. He would stilt their
point of attack defense. But he is, like he was
probably the best gettable big name that could make an
impact and just inject a certain level of like wild
cardiness into the Bucks makeup. So that's why Milwaukee would
consider this. Is he the guy you fire at if
if you're in this this hypothetical of we got to
get somebody else in here to help you, honest, when
he's healthy, what if it's?
Speaker 1: What if it? Janna says, yeah, I'm staying if that's honestly.
Speaker 2: Until he wants to explore his future, whether that's with
the bus from somewhere else in like two more months, yeah, right,
or no, We're gonna say you have to have that
assurance that, like I'm hey, I'm gonna stop having my
agent leak to Sham's the same report that was leaked
over the summer. Well, we'll knock all that off if
you go trade for James Harden.
Speaker 1: It's maybe that's what when I watched the Bucks, I
feel like I'm more concerned about the defense, which is
funny because I think I said in preseason that they're
gonna be a better defensive team than offensive team. I
didn't see Ryan Rollins coming, to be fair, did anybody
and you did. But they're in the tenth percentile of
offensive efficiency when Giannis doesn't play, and that's with the
Pistons game the other end there, so they certainly need
what James Harden brings. Let's venture back to what we
said when we were talking about the Timberwolves, though we
know what might happen in the playoffs with Harden, so
I don't think this is the guy that you fire
all what's left of your assets at. I think it's
somewhat intriguing because sub forty million dollars does make the
money easy to match. You don't have to give up
Bobby Portis to make this deal work, like you can
game it around what was the would the end the
package final final packaged up being was Kuzma, Kuzma, Harris
and Porter so you were able to keep like, Okay,
we still have Portis and Turner and Giannis. Our front
court is set. I'd be intrigued. But if the Clippers
gonna accept less pick equity for that, because as the Bucks,
you could just say any first round pick we give you,
whether it's a swap or not, is gold and so
if it's something like that and I'm the Bucks and
you're honest saying yeah, I'm gonna stay through the rest
of the season, they know he doesn't have a torn achilles,
of course I might consider it, but it's just what
does this do for you? This is just about this
season then, and so what does it do for you
be like maybe next season as well, if James Harden
picks up his player option and wants to stay there.
But it also does give you flexibility. Let's say you
have James Harden, this season plays out, you do whatever
honesty ask for out, you move him anyway. Now you
can save still a bunch of money because James Harden's
guaranteed what was it ten or thirteen million dollars, So
there is you're kind of playing both sides of the fence.
I'm probably not doing this if I'm Milwaukee, in part
because we have another trade that we're about to talk
about it in a second where that might make a
little bit more sense. But it's riskier in its own right.
Where are you at with it?
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that's jumping out to me is
I can't decide if it's stupider or like more justifiable
to target Harden when clearly you targeted Damian Lillard, And
how different are those two really in terms of what
your vision for a Yannis counterpart are, or.
Speaker 1: If anything, you're saying you want Gianni's off the ball
even more.
Speaker 2: If you're saying, hey, we think Damian Lillard was the
is the right guy for us, and I don't know,
maybe it looked okay. I guess it wasn't perfect certainly,
But if that's still your theory, then Harden. The way
Harden is playing right now, is he is is better
probably than the version of Damian Lillard you traded for,
or at least close enough to it, and it's costing
you less, I guess now. Like so therefore it's like,
well that was our plan before. We think it's a
good plan, it's justifiable or is it stupid or because
of how the Damian Lillard thing were doubt the injury
complicates that. But it's just kind of like it is
very much like the definition of insanity thing where it's
like let's do it, toga, Yeah, let's let's see, you know,
maybe maybe it'll work for us. It's all the all
the memes. Uh, I think I don't know. If I'm
the Bucks, I think I'm trying to expand this to
be like, if I'm calling the Clippers, I just go
for Kawhi instead. Maybe well, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let's say, Okay, what a segue to that. We have
a Kauhi to the Clippers trade and Kawhi. You thought
James Harden's trade value was difficult, I find Kuha's incredi
qui is incredibly difficult because not only do you have
the specter of his injuries, there's also the possibility that
he just simply retires if he's traded out of California. Right,
we have to cake that into anything, But I mean, yeah,
the trade would basically be closer to the same. It's
the Bucks receive Kawhi Leonard, they trade the Clippers Kyle Kuzma,
Bobby Portis, Kevin Porter and the twenty thirty two first
round pick. Now, you could argue there needs to be
more pick equity in there. If you're getting a twenty
thirty two pick at this point and Kawhi and Giannis
is the team like is their team. You're feeling pretty
good as the Clippers, and so if you're doing you're
doing you're training Kawhi is part of a s or
maybe they view this as opportunistic. No, we just want
to get this Bucks pick and we're gonna move. Maybe
maybe they're trading that Bucks pick to the Thunder to
get their own pick back this year and one of
those trades. Who knows what are you? Are you who
says no to this one?
Speaker 2: Uh? Who says no to this? I'm having a hard time.
Does that mean this is the best trade we've discussed?
So here's the thing I think you're I think Kawhi
is harder to trade just because they're than hardened, because
there's that fifty million dollars sitting there next year that
you're gonna have to pay him unless the league negates
his contract, I guess, which is like not totally imbosish.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's weird that Terry Rozier can't be
traded while he's being investigated, but Kawhi seems like he
can be We've hed, I mean, he's still playing, So
is it is it? Just? Is it too different?
Speaker 2: I think, well, clearly it's different that the league is
treating it differently. Uh, I don't know that that's fair.
I will see that's so this the offer here does imply, though,
at least in your opinion, that Kawhi is a less
valuable trade asset than James Harden.
Speaker 1: He's to me, he's less valuable from an availability perspective,
and the Bucks need availability because it's not like they
like they have a bunch of guys on the roster.
But the whole point is we can't figure out how
to exist without Yannis and Kawhi. Leonard is someone who
you acquire knowing you need to figure out how to
exist without him because he's going to miss time.
Speaker 2: Well but sure, but I think if I'm the Clippers,
I'm more The reason I said I'm more interested in
Kauhi is just like as the as the as the Bucks,
You're already sort of like if this is gonna work,
it's gonna be a lightning in a bottle scenario where
we're the seventh seed and we just go on a
run and both our best guys are healthy, and like
healthy Kawhi healthy the Yannest I get it, Like saying
healthy Kauhi is just like what are you talking about?
But those two guys on the same team in a
playoff series, like that's if you're looking for the lightning
in a bottle route to like a conference finals, that's
it is having those two guys much more so than Harden,
just because we know what will happen with Harden, what
has happened every time. So I just I'm more interested
in Kawhi as the Bucks. Even pricing in the major
financial commitment of next season, whereas Harden thirteen million guaranteed, Kawhi,
you're paying them fifty, like that's it, and you might
get half a season, you might get less, you might
get nothing. I think from the perspective of we've decided
we're gonna do the same thing and appeasy, honist and
try to build the most the build the team that
has the best shot at like just I'm not getting lucky,
but like peaking at the right time for a couple
months and who knows what happens, it's Kawhi and so
I I do this as the Bucks. I think, however,
that only is true in the world we've created here.
That is a fiction where where it's like Giannice is staying,
we're not gonna trade, because you trade honest if you're
acting rationally.
Speaker 1: Right, And it's difficult because the theory of Kawhi Leonard
is so much better and makes so much more sense
for the Bucks than the theory of James Harden. But
I would probably lean towards the reality of James Harden
would do more for the Bucks than the reality of
what you're gonna get from.
Speaker 2: Do you think if you go to Giannis and say
you can have one or the other, you tell you
tell us you honest because you're in charge. Do you
think he says James Harden. No, I don't either.
Speaker 1: I think it was James Harden had that quote remember
way back when, of if I wish I was seven
feet and could just run around like didn't he demigrated he.
Speaker 2: Has no bag, you're digging it up. Wow, I forgot
about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: They they're Bordal enemies. They can never play together.
Speaker 1: We do need to come up with some other Kawhi
Leonard trades, though he I found his more difficult than others.
There's nuclear one that I really want to talk about.
But let's go back. Let's revisit the Minnesota Timberwolves grant.
So the deal kind of similar to what they'd be
giving up for James Harden. But the Minnesota Timberwolves receive
Kawhi Leonard. The Los Angeles Clippers get Julius Randall, Mike Conley,
Rob Dillingham. The Brooklyn Nets received Leonard Miller. I'm assuming
they would just take a flyer on Leonard Miller because
he's he's young, and he might be a three, he
might be a five. Who knows. I used to be
Leonard Miller pilled. But is this if you're the you know,
we talked about this with the Bucks. If you're the Timberwolves,
do you prefer Kawhi or James Harden if you're going
after a trade asset or I'm sorry, going after a player.
Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna be a broken record and say
I'm always gonna prefer Kawhi.
Speaker 1: Now, but even given the cost. So when it was
James Harden, you were giving up Julius Randall and stuff.
Now you're giving up Julius Randall and Rob Dilly. I
called Mike Conley and stuff. I apologize, No, it is
and stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, like, I don't know, I don't
know that Dillingham is going to be a factor at
all this year. Conley, I think you can't. There's no
upward trajectory there so I again, like if you're the Timberwolves,
I do think it's defensible to say we just got
to get better this year because we're at the stage
of our evolution where it's like we're trying to win
right now because next year who knows, right, So you
are really taking on risk where you might just be
paying Kawhi fifty million dollars to do nothing next year.
But like Edward's Kawhi go bat like, I think just
having Kawhi makes Minnesota more dangerous as a playoff team
than having the three guys they're losing here, don't don't do?
Do you disagree with it?
Speaker 1: I don't disagree, And I honestly think the Equippers probably
want more, whether it's a swap or tern Shannon Junior
in there. And that's where I think if I'm Minnesota,
I have to think longer about it because you're going
to lightning in a bottle route. But I think that's
okay when it's just Rob Dillingham because you've kind of decided,
like you said before, he's probably if he actualizes into
what they thought he was going to be, it's not
going to be on the timeline they're currently operating within.
It's where it would get iffy for me is if
the Clippers said, well, we you know, because the Timberls
can trade swaps or if you want to give up
Arren Shannon Junr, which sounds kind of stupid, but it's
also you have to cake in Kawhi Leonard missing games,
and so that's the perspective I'm coming at it from.
Speaker 2: You do and you don't though, because like, if he's
missing games in the playoffs, then okay, this was a mistake,
but we just we were playing the upside and who
you know, do you.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's anything that I mentioned to This
was hard and so Kawhi has this year and then
next year left on his deal, right and then he's done.
Do you think that the there might be something to
the Timberwolves also saying okay, he's basically the same cost
as Julius Randall over this time in total, but Julius
Rendad has that player option on the third year, so
we're kind of shortening. If this doesn't really work out, Okay,
it's over sooner, because if it doesn't work out by
next season and Julius Randall's still there, it's you have
less control over what you're gonna do at that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's some element there. I guess looking
at it too from the Clippers side, Like think you said,
like the dealing, you have to be pretty pro dilling
him from the Clippers perspective to to go for this,
because like Randall, this flip, it's the reverse argument is
like Randall roughly the same money as Kawhi, but you
it's extended over a third year?
Speaker 1: Is he? Like?
Speaker 2: Is he a center? Like? What what are you doing
as the Clippers?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: This isn't a rebuild move. This is kind of a
try to have it both ways where you get like
a borderline All star guy in him. I don't know
what Commly, what purpose Commlely really serves there, And.
Speaker 1: That's why they make room the only only like the
only point guard that like uh is close in age
to him and then Dylan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. The Clippers side is tough here.
Maybe I'm over this might be just what you can get.
Speaker 1: Well that's what's tough. I mean, if this is probably
what you could get as the Clippers, I might unless
you have another destination lined up for Julius Randall in
which you're getting stuff but I mean, like the thing
that Minnesota could do that's not gonna help that well,
I guess no, because they're is gone in twenty twenty eight.
So I mean Minnesota can offer swaps into like a
twenty thirty two swap, doesn't do anything more of the
Clippers haven't pick then.
Speaker 2: Not a lot, I'll be honest. Uh, let's let's see.
Let's let's do another. Do you have anything else on
the Minnesota trade? No?
Speaker 1: What other Quhi trade? Okay, By the way, I love
I like the idea of Kawhi Minnesota. I like the
idea of Kui a lot of plays. But Minnesota, if
you if I had to put every pick, if I
had to put dilling Ham and any picks walk on
the table that I need to and Julius Randall to
go get Kawhi Leonard, I'm doing it. I think.
Speaker 2: I mean, like if Edwards, Kawhi, McDaniels go beart like.
Speaker 1: That Nasrid insane, Dona DiVincenzo is still there.
Speaker 2: And if you can't hold on to Shannon, I mean
there's that that's not a fun team to deal with.
If if you get playoff Edwards defense. All right, let's
talk about the Kings.
Speaker 1: Uh, this would be such a king's move to do
would be, Hey, he's gonna report we're in California, this
will this will work out.
Speaker 2: They would just okay. So the deal is the Kings
get Kawhi, the Clippers get Demarta Rozen Malik monk first
round pick or zach Lavine in a first round pick,
you choose, you choose Clippers, which would you prefer?
Speaker 1: So I think the first Zack Lavine in a first
round pick, by the way, is what would you Yeah, what.
Speaker 2: DeRozan's got like a partial guarantee next year though, right.
Speaker 1: Just that's a he's guaranteed I think ten or twelve
million whatever it ends up being.
Speaker 2: Uh, he's on the books for twenty five point seven.
The arrow hovering over his salary is not telling I
think you're right. It's like ten all right. So in
that first scenario with the DeRozan monk in first rounder,
the Kings would be in the tax. So they'll definitely
do that one. After the first scenario, in scenario two,
the question is would Kean Ellis need to be attached
in a Levine deal? So it's sort of like, is
is Levine a negative enough asset? We're in addition to
a first round or you have to throw in well
dirt cheap like starting caliber win.
Speaker 1: I think if if the compensation for Kuhi is a
King's pick, you have my attention regardless of what else
is in the package. At this point, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think that's right. Uh, Well, I guess
what's what's the core question here is? I guess as
the Clippers, would you rather have, You'd rather have Levine
and the pick?
Speaker 1: Then I still run on Levine pilled, But I still
think especially I think Levine is and he could replace
kind of a lot of what Norman Powell was doing
for them last year. But to your point, But so
the other thing is, though you mentioned Jamaar Rosan has
that partial guarantee with Zach Levine, there has been some
speculation that he'd be willing to opt out and then
sign a deal that's worth less over a longer term,
and he if he's making thirty three million a year,
he might all of a sudden become an asset. Again, Yeah,
that's true.
Speaker 2: A lot changes if he's if he's not making close
to fifty and.
Speaker 1: If you're gonna throw keon Ellis in there for sure
that I'm absolutely doing it. The other thing, I just
don't because this And if you're Sacramento, you're justifying this
by saying, we all right, if the bonus gets healthy,
we'll have enough guard somewhere like to do something. Russell
Westbrook is here and with Kawhi Keikan Murray, if you're
able to keep Ellis, imagine what we could do this season.
Let's get it like the beam straight up into the
eyeballs of our fans. I mean, is it is it?
Speaker 2: Is it wrong to say I'll do whichever of these
deals includes Keon Ellish? But I think I think either one.
I just as I'm gonna be the Kings for a second. Guys,
Kawhi Leonard, if we get him, that's a huge name,
so we should do it. And then I'm if I
if the King's had good advisors or people making decisions,
someone would pipe up and say, like, he's never gonna
play for us, Like he's just he might be, he
might stay on the roster, He's just never gonna play, right, Like,
isn't that the outcome here? If the Kings go get Kawhi,
he's like he's just not gonna if he does play,
it'll be even more sporadic than it's been. Like he
what possible interest would he have? It is in California.
You're right, the Kings would probably make that argument to
themselves and justify doing this. He's totally the best player
in the deal, right, but he's not what why would
Kawai want to be here?
Speaker 1: Well, okay, hold on, he's not getting those seven million
dollar payouts anymore from Aspiration, So you're gonna want to
collect your full salary. So if you want to get
paid your fifty million dollar salary, you subject yourself to
whatever's going on in Sacramentary. This is just you know what,
this go ahead.
Speaker 2: Sacramento is the city of trees, and Kawhi has vast
experience with with tree planting. He's an arborist. I hear.
And also I don't know, maybe there's a car. It's
just it fits right, like he Kawi knows, he knows
his trees, he knows how to whatever. What did Aspiration
do supposedly something with trees? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were gonna plant to treat as a carbon offset.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, Sacramento loves trees.
Speaker 1: Honestly, this would wouldn't this be something that the Kings
would just do? This is right up their alley. I'my tilling.
Speaker 2: You asked that question. The answers, yes, yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1: So we have a final one and it's kind of nuclear.
This is our last one, right very I want to
know what people. I want to know what you think
about this, and I hope Brian Taporik is listening to
because I'd love to know what he thinks about this.
Are you ready? Grant Kawhi Leonard of Philadelphia seventy six
Ers reunites with Paul George. The Clippers receive Joel Embiid
and their own twenty twenty eight first round pick back.
The Sixers receive Kawhi, Kobe Sanders, Chris Dunn, and two
second round picks in twenty thirty one and twenty thirty two. Now,
the core question is are the Clippers willing to eat
what's left on Joell Ebid's deal, which is a very
long time. There's a case to be made that Joel
Embiid is on the worst contract in the NBA. Oh
is it worth it just to get control over a pickback?
I think the Sixers also have swap rights on the
Clippers in twenty twenty nine. So is this a situation
where you need to get both of those back? And
so who is who is saying no? With all of
those moving parts, I thought this was interesting. It's not
being thrown out there, I think because from the Clippers' perspective,
it's that's two drafts away, as as soonest we were getting.
But I also found it somewhat interesting because what if
John Beid is just lightning in him and Zoo playing together,
or you're getting Look, here's the thing is you could
make this trade after making the trade with OKC that
we outlined in pool. Yes, all of a sudden, you've
got all your picks back in twenty six, twenty seven,
twenty eight, and maybe twenty nine.
Speaker 2: I love this as a hypothetical. Would you take on
the worst contract in the NBA. Let's just assume it's
that's what this is for three years of draft control back. Like,
is that a better situation than the Clippers are about
to be in?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: In reality I think it is too. I think you
might do this, like you just look just even if
you just said and beat his dead money, Let's just
say you know this is this is a sixty million
dollar plus cap hit. It's like we amnesteed somebody or
something like this. Just it's just on our books, right,
worst case scenario that let's view it that way. I
think you you pay sixty million dollars, You fire sixty
million dollars a year into the sun for three more
years to get control of your draft back. I think
you do that as the Clippers, and I don't think
it's that hard of a decision, as crazy as that sounds.
Speaker 1: No, you do it. I think it's do you do
it if you don't? If the okay trade is not happening.
Speaker 2: Right, if we just say it's just this, so you're
getting one year of your draft.
Speaker 1: Let's say, do you think it's both? Is this doesn't
need well, let's let's game it out as the from
the Sixers perspective, Are you considering this at all? One
pick pick whatever? Yeah you are?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. Don't you just to get off the
their side of it's a little different, like just to
get this cap char this dead cap money, this cap
charge off the books? Right, what's it worth? What are
you willing to pay? I mean, it's definitely one first rounder.
I think, look, I'm not gonna lie. If I'm the Clippers,
I might do it. If it's just the twenty twenty,
just for the one, well, so let's game that out.
Because you, as the Clippers, you're then you're taking on
the Embid experience, which like maybe he this I don't
believe this, but maybe as the Clippers, you can say,
he might give us a season in there where he's
an All NBA player. I don't know that's marketable, and
we're just we're just running the clock out here. We
did this for the pick, and the the byproduct is
maybe we're relevant for one of these years because embiid
finally holds together. You could you could talk a room
of decision makers into that possibility, right, like, maybe if
just for the one, you get this one pick that's
a couple of years out.
Speaker 1: That's so so it has to be both you're getting
your your two then and because you are also giving
up Kobe Sanders in two second round picks, So the
thought process there would be you're regaining control of those
two first, I'm doing that deal if I'm if you've
made the if you've made the ok Se deal, Let's
say you make the okayc deal already, Philly could probably
ransom the hell out of you for just the one. Yeah,
let's say the okay see deals not let's just say
that NBA executives they all don't listen to this podcast,
which would be weird. And we know that's not true.
The thunder deal isn't happening. If I'm the Clippers for
both of the picks back, I'm still doing this. I
know it's kind of that weird intervening timeline then, but
what you just laid out would be a reason to
not have Joel Embiid on the roster if you get
your own picks back in twenty six and twenty seven,
because what if he is good, then you're not maximizing
the value of those selections.
Speaker 2: Have the Clippers traded Harden in this hypothetical, because now
we're reuniting Harden and Embiid and that's fine.
Speaker 1: Well hardened emb Beid weren't the problem.
Speaker 2: More Yan, I know we're sending Kawhi back to Paul George,
we're sending Harden and to get it's like we're just
shuffling deck chairs here. Which that's not to say that
this isn't interesting. It's just kind of wild that that's
how that's where we are as both of these teams.
Is you're willing to just kind of swap problems on.
Speaker 1: Mass I honestly think so what you're effectively doing so
Joelle Beads extension hasn't started yet. Looking at after this season,
Qui has one year and fifty million dollars left, Jowelbean
has three years and one hundred and eighty eight plus.
I actually think, though, knowing all that the Sixers would
be the team that is more likely to say no
to this, especially if the twenty nine swap is But
I keep talking. I pretend like I know all these picks,
like right off Coff, like who owes what? I'm assuming
that they don't have. Yes, Philly, the Clippers have the
right to swap with Philly. So you're only getting the
Philly has the right to swap. It's two thousand and
oh no Philly could swap with Excuse me?
Speaker 2: Can I think you had to raise?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I apologize. I apologize for being right.
Speaker 2: So if we just break this down to a who
says no, you're saying it's the Sixers that say no
here that should be.
Speaker 1: If Aside says no and it's the Clippers, I have
some questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And I guess it's it's harder to take
Philly's perspective and say, like, what's Kawhi Leonard getting us
this year and next year that that gives us a
higher ceiling than the possibility.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, you have vj Edgecombe and
Tyrese Maxie having another bigger wing in there when you
have so many guards that need Jared McKay needing minutes.
I think the.
Speaker 2: Easier, the cleanest piece of this analysis is just that
the Clippers should probably be willing to take Conjoel Embiid's
contract to get control of their draft back, which is
the thing we've just circled back to a million times,
whether it's talking about OKAC or any other team, it's
like that has to be priority one. I think is
maybe the way to kind of start wrapping.
Speaker 1: This up right. And that's I think that comes back
to just the core, the core question of all of
this is do you actually think that the Clippers should
blow it up? Knowing all the movie because the stuff
we outline, yes, in a perfect world, what you could
say is yeah, the Clipper they do the zoobots thing,
and then they do the embiid thing. You're not gonna
do all those things. You're not gonna basically, you're probably
not even gonna do any of these things, even if
you're moving harder a kuhi. These are all just different permutations.
Are the Clippers at a point, and you just operate
under the assumption they're not getting this year's pickback, they're
not getting twenty twenty seven back. As the as our
core just baseline is, do you blow it up anyway
just to kind of deviate from whatever the heck is
going on right now, or because of the way your
draft obligations are set up. Are you just saying we're
just gonna see this through and reevaluate year over year,
maybe we'll get lucky in free agency in twenty twenty
six or twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 2: I think if if we stipulate that they're not getting
twenty six and twenty seven back, I think it makes
it justifiable to not blow it up up. If you
can get those back, then like ten times out of ten,
you're you're eleven times out of ten. Just it's every
single time out of every single time you're blowing it
up if you can't get those back from the thunder.
I think the reason you still might consider it is
like doesn't have so much to do with our draft
assets and our flexibility and our timeline. It's more just
like this is an untenable situation, like from a personality standpoint,
and we don't think we can go forward with tylu
as the coach, or we don't think, you know, it
would have to be more like stuff that we're not
really talking about when we're talking about these trades. It's
more just like this situation is bad, and like we
won't get anything good out of it because there's off
court stuff where there's there's just the vibes are too
too far gone right, like that you could justify it
on those grounds where you're starting to look at hardener
Kawhi trades that aren't gonna just like give you this
hard reset with with your with your picks coming back.
Speaker 1: I think what I struggle with the most is that
I'm with you where it's if you're not getting your
own picks back, it's absolutely justifiable to do absolutely nothing
and hope this thing turns around. What is the evidence
that it's going to turn around, because I look at
it and they've been outscored by five and a half
points per one hundred possessions with James Harden and Kawhi
on the floor, and their offense has been barely above average. Like,
what are you banking on getting better? It's not like
Kawhi has been terrible. It's not like James Harden has
been terrible. Chris Paul was terrible and not really playing.
What is just the what is the harbinger? What is
the signal that you actually can the fact that you
know you're not going to try to integrate Bradley Beal
because I just a lot of it, and you know,
I love boiling stuff down to vibes, but so much
with the Clippers continues to come back to like the
vibes are off, the personnel has changed too much, it's
getting too old. What is the what is the evidence
that this is just going into I haven't seen anything
this season, like, yeah, there's been some plucky lineups, especially
with Harden and Zoo A lot of times Kawhi might
not be on the floor for it where it's all right,
like you might say, but they seem like they've kind
of turned over so much of the identity of last
year's team to where it's just they were out and
transition more. Even though we saw that to decline year year,
the defensive identity was there. And that's just okay, I
guess if Derek Jones Junior gets healthy or are you
planning on bringing I like, I don't, I don't know
what the and maybe that's the problem is I can't
boil it down to a singular problem and that's what
makes this team so confusing. And so I mean towards
just rip the band aid off. This is just like,
because what are you fighting for that if you can
get even first round picks from other teams and protected
or prospect flyers from other teams for no, don't trade
Zoo Like. He's someone who's he's young, he's in his prime,
so he's not hardener KWHI but entering the you know,
the exiting his heyday. Excuse me, don't trade him just
for anything, but get what you can for these guys
who are basically placeholders. Anyway, when you're looking at your
cap space plans for maybe this summer, but certainly in
twenty twenty seven, I.
Speaker 2: Think if you're looking for this for a signal or
for evidence, like there's not any that there's nothing that's
readily apparent. I do think from the Clippers side of it,
the justification for not blowing it up is just that,
like we're sticking to our priors. We put this team
together and like we bought it for by the way,
like we thought that ye fair, this fair, this, this
outcome is what we or at least I I can't
remember what you thought. I think we were pretty close
in this thought was gonna happen last year to the Clippers. Yep,
they're too old. They can't rely on their two core guys.
This is a mess. They're gonna win thirty two games
or whatever something like that. Thirty two feels high at
the moment, but the team they put together this year
now beals out. I didn't really factor Beal in all
that much to begin with, Like when thinking the Clippers
would win mid to high.
Speaker 1: Forties, and neither of us were completely sold on the
Beal and John Collins from Warm and Powell swap.
Speaker 2: No, but I definitely made the case that like, well,
Powell can't possibly play this well again, And I was
right because he's playing better.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, just but just to make sure I'm not
trying to deflect blame, I predicted that the Clippers would
finish in top seven of offensive defense this season. So no,
I did. We were both.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I think maybe partly as a reaction
to how badly we missed the on the twenty year
we overre twenty five Clippers. We over corrected. But the
theory of the team was sound like, yeah, they're old,
that's true. But we thought the bench would be good.
We thought Collins would be better than this. We thought
Bogdanovitch would help. We thought Lopez wouldn't be totally washed,
thought Chris Paul would be on the team, like some
of that, like the Beal and Paul stuff. All right,
well that's definitely not going to play out how we thought.
Is there something to be said for just saying this
is the first quarter of the season. It went as
badly as you could have possibly imagine, short of just
like Leonard and Leonard and Harden not playing at all.
We still think the theory we put this team together
under has something to it, right, like and and and
maybe that paired with as we just illustrated the difficulty
of getting good stuff for your tradable assets not named
zubots is pretty high. I don't know, Like maybe maybe
you trust that this this can't get worse and some
of what we thought in the off season putting this
team together was right now, I still think you should
they should blow it up. I think that's the right move.
I could just see them if they don't do it.
That's probably the argument, right, is that just like I
don't know, we.
Speaker 1: Still to some extent in this vision, right, it'd be that,
and what are we getting by blowing yeah, because that's
what's none of the deals? But was there any of
the deals we laid out, whether it was for Kawhi
or Harden that as the because we even got them
John Moran and Trey Young and one of them and
that was, well, what is that? Does that really make
sense for mortgage more of your future? Were there any
deals or like that you have just absolutely pounced on
as the Clippers And the answer to me was the
anything Bucks related. I'm you know, if I can get
some of those Bucks picks right, pieces of those absolutely
beyond that though, if that's what you're going to get,
then you could just say, well then why won't we
just will see this through. We're not getting any of
these real high end fly Like is Jalen Green a
high end flyer? Is Rob Dillingham a high end flyer?
I don't I don't know, probably not.
Speaker 2: I think every piece of the analysis changes. If you
can get the Thunder to trade you back your picks.
But why like why would the Thunder like why would
they want to do that?
Speaker 1: Sorry, if I'm the Thunder, I'm doing the offer we
laid out I think was a real one, the three Oh.
Speaker 2: No, right, But I can but like just zooming out,
like I can't think of a team well one because
there have almost never been any teams like this that
were as good as the Thunder, that were like, yeah,
let's let's swing a trade like this in the middle
of the seat, Like don't you want to just like
take your hands off the controls as the Thunder little bit?
Speaker 1: Well, could the you know we mentioned this or I
mentioned this at the end of the actual discussion with that,
what if the Thunder was We're not bringing in zubots
like this ends up being just kind of a picks trade.
I mean, Kenrick Williams is in icon in Oklahoma City,
so I get that's a but Usman Jang's not gonna
be around much longer, so you're moving those two guys.
Maybe Zubots goes to Boston is a team that is
he's been floated for that. You can probably get what
two first round picks if you're taking some money from Boston.
And so what you're basically doing is you're not really
messing with your locker room dynamics at all, because you're
not bringing in someone who, oh there's this weird minutes
pushing pull Home, Grin Hartenstein, Zubots, and you're gonna end
up with Okay, you lose the next two Clippers picks,
you gain control out years over there, three picks in
twenty thirty, twenty thirty one, twenty thirty two, and then
you're getting another control over another two first round picks,
a pick and a swap. It's not I mean, I
mean it would be.
Speaker 2: That would be the most exciting outcome is if the
thunder really did engage. I hope it happens. And but
for both sides, because this is this saves the Clippers
and it makes the thunder even more interesting. It's kind
of a win win.
Speaker 1: Uh, do you have anything else Are you ready to
take us out of here?
Speaker 2: No great talk. Thanks everybody for listening, for watching. Remember
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