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No, we're just necessary daoidhever Everyboy Loss, 23 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:01.079 your Rectation of Eating Clubs. 24 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.680 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 25 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:14.799 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:22.159 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 27 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.879 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:30.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:34.079 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:49.640 Good Evening. What do Wyatt earp Bill Gunnis, Bigfoot, the Renegade, Billy, 31 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.159 the Kid and Doctor H. H. Holmes and the Black 32 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.200 Hand have in common? They were all subjects of true 33 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.799 crime newspaper reporting in the eighteen hundreds, and now these 34 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:03.680 stories and that of many others, are brought together in 35 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:08.599 their original form in a two volume set True Crime Chronicles, 36 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:13.960 Serial Killers, Outlaws and Justice, Real crime stories from the 37 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:18.199 eighteen hundreds, compiled and commented on by New York Times 38 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.879 best selling author Mike Rothmiller. These classic works of journalism 39 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:27.159 resurrect astonishing stories that will take the reader back to 40 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:31.840 when these horrific tales mesmerized the nation. Some may find 41 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:35.120 these articles and their descriptions of people in crimes shocking 42 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:39.280 by today's standards, but they are representative of the most 43 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:44.719 colorful true crime stories of the day. True Crime Chronicles 44 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:48.680 Volume one includes stories about Bell Gunnis, who had a 45 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:51.960 pensiont for killing men and feeding them to her hogs, 46 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:57.199 Doctor Holmes and his Murder Castle, the Bloody Benders, and 47 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:01.919 Amelia Dyer, the Baby Farmer, the Darker Side of Wyatt Earp, 48 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.000 and the forerunners of the American mafia, the Black Hand. 49 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:12.199 Imagine yourself accompanying these reporters, visiting the crime scenes, interviewing witnesses, 50 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:17.199 and penning the stories of murder, lynchings, evil and swift 51 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:22.039 frontier justice True Crime Chronicles. The book that we're featuring 52 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:26.159 this evening is True Crime Chronicles Volume one, Serial Killers, 53 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:30.800 Outlaws and Justice, Real crime stories from the eighteen hundreds, 54 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:35.039 with my special guest journalist and author and historian Mike Rothmiller. 55 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:37.479 Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for 56 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:39.479 this interview. Mike Rothmiller. 57 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:41.919 Oh, it's pleasure to be here. You're quite welcome. 58 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.560 Thank you so much. Just give us a little bit 59 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:51.680 of your background as a detective and tell us what 60 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:56.639 was the impetus and for this True Crime Chronicles, and 61 00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:58.800 maybe tell us a little bit about your background as 62 00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.639 an author as well. 63 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:05.639 Okay, I was a police officer in Los Angeles for 64 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:10.639 ten years. I worked patrol as a training officer, I 65 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:15.319 was a field supervisor, watch commander, and I worked undercover 66 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.639 vice in Hollywood for eighteen months, which was very real 67 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:23.839 eye opener. And then I worked undercover excuse me, on 68 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:28.600 organized crime and intelligence for five years, and that was 69 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:33.639 working on the traditional old Italian mafia, the Russian mafia, 70 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:37.839 Israeli Mafia, and any other organized crime group that came along. 71 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:42.680 I left the PD, it became a TV reporter, ended 72 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:45.759 up being exec producer and hosting my own show on ESPN, 73 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.959 and then along the line, I wrote. It's over twenty 74 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:54.079 five books now and almost all of them, except for 75 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:58.879 just a handful, are all true. And that's been my background. 76 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:04.879 It's just fascinating looking into true crime and other issues 77 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:07.199 that the government doesn't want you to know about secrets. 78 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:13.079 So this particular book, these two volumes, I came across 79 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:17.079 that I was researching an incident for another book, and 80 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:22.000 I got into the archives across the country and into 81 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:27.040 the national archives and the archives in Britain and so forth, 82 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.120 and I start coming across stories that were written about 83 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:37.360 serial killers, murderers, and bizarre crimes that occurred in some 84 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:40.240 to the seventeen hundreds and then into the eighteen hundreds. 85 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.279 And I was fascinated by the stories because they were 86 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:47.519 written by journalists. They appeared in newspapers, but the way 87 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:52.040 they wrote the stories, they got into great detail. They 88 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:55.480 were without question, the most knowledgeable people at the time 89 00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:00.639 investigating these let's say murders, because they would go out 90 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.279 a lot of times with the detectives and they would 91 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:05.600 find evidence a lot of times, and so they wrote 92 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.480 very graphically about it, very well detailed, and so it 93 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:12.360 is without question they were the best accounts of those 94 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:16.480 crimes from the time, because court records are non existent 95 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.680 anymore from the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds in most cases. 96 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.040 So these were the best sources of evidence and stories 97 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.360 of those crimes at the time. So anyway, I went 98 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:30.560 through it, and I kept finding more and more interesting stories. 99 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:35.639 Then I contacted the publisher Wildly Press and said, hey, 100 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:39.399 I've got these wonderful stories. What do you think And 101 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.399 they said, immediately, let's do it. These things are just 102 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:47.079 too interesting not to put out in print. So that 103 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:51.279 was the genesis of the books and they're doing extremely well. 104 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:56.240 Oh absolutely, so deservedly. So let's talk about the summary 105 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:58.079 that you have right at the beginning of what is 106 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:02.839 in these true crime chronicles and this came out in 107 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:07.639 October twenty twenty, this book. Can you just go through 108 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:10.360 what's containing as you do with the serial killers and 109 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.839 who's mentioned and the baby Farmers? Can you go through 110 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:13.639 that for us? 111 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.879 Oh? Sure, yeah. The serial killers that starts the book. 112 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:22.480 There are three true serial killers, Bell Guinness, Doctor Holmes 113 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.360 and the Bender family. Then I get into what was 114 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:29.360 called the baby farmers, which are primarily in England. But 115 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.639 people just didn't understand what they worry Even people in 116 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:34.680 England didn't realize they had a history of this and 117 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:38.279 they were for better term. Women would advertise in the 118 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.519 seventeen eighteen ten to say, if you can't take care 119 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:42.480 of your child or you want to give it up secretly, 120 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:46.319 you give me at the time, like say equivalent to 121 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:49.600 twenty dollars which would be several hundred several thousand, and 122 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:51.759 I'll take care of your child, I'll raise it, or 123 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:55.319 I will put it out for adoption and don't worry 124 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:57.839 about it. So these women would do it as soon 125 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:00.600 as these people were paid. The woman left left a 126 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:02.720 child there, they would kill the baby and throw the 127 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:07.079 baby in the Thames River. And I've got stories of 128 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:10.279 three women who were doing it and at best guests, 129 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:13.680 they probably killed close to a thousand babies in that fashion. 130 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:18.240 So that's one there were. I also have a chapter 131 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:24.279 about lynchings that went on in the US, and that 132 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.480 really struck me interesting because most people believe, and rightfully so, 133 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.480 that the vast majority of lynchings were conducted by white 134 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.200 mobs on African Americans. They'd break them out of jail, 135 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.960 they would capture them, they would hang him so forth. 136 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:43.240 Well that was true. But also I have in their 137 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:48.759 articles regarding African American groups who got together and went 138 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:53.000 out and lynched African Americans for the same crimes, and 139 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:55.840 so that's something that has really been forgotten in history 140 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.639 that this occurred. So I have the stories about that. 141 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:04.480 I have stories about some women and a man who 142 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:09.360 were basically accused of being a witch, which is in England, 143 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:12.799 and how they were killed. Then I get into the 144 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:20.720 Old West regarding the Irp family, Doc Holliday other ones 145 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:25.519 like that, and primarily talking about the dark side of 146 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:29.320 the York family the Dalton Gang. And then what I 147 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:34.480 found was really intriguing was Bigfoot. The Renegade was a 148 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:38.159 guy that led some piutes on raiding parties and he 149 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.960 was just he was amazing. He was a giant for 150 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:46.000 the time. Physically they said he weighed over three hundred 151 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:49.600 pounds solid muscle, was like six foot they guessed like 152 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:53.120 six ft eight maybe a little bit larger, but just 153 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:58.519 phenomenal story about him. And then the Black Hand, they 154 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.320 were the forerunners of, if you want to say, the 155 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:04.639 mafia when they really kind of changed names, that got 156 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:09.360 into other crimes in America. Soorry have that. I have 157 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:15.120 the assassination of President Garfield in there, from what happened, 158 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:17.720 how it went down, and the person who was caught 159 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:21.799 and eventually executed. Then I have a good number of 160 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:26.120 short stories that I found were truly fascinating. They're probably 161 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:30.320 about twenty of them in there, of just various bizarre 162 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.919 crimes and the way people were treated back then. There's 163 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:38.480 a dentist refused to be horsewhipped because he wrote a 164 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:41.519 letter to a girl in another town that she thought 165 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:46.000 was kind of embarrassing off color. So that was a crime, 166 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:50.279 and so they decided to horsewhip this dentist and he 167 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.679 wouldn't go. Ford says no, and he barricaded himself in 168 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:58.039 his office, and then they finally parlayed and the girl said, Okay, 169 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:00.919 if he comes down and apologizes me public, we won't 170 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:03.360 horsewhip him, but he's got to leave town. And so 171 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:05.879 that was the deal that was cut. He came out 172 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:08.759 and I'm sorry for the letter, and he left town. 173 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.879 The very strange things and then some very strange murders 174 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:19.919 that occurred back during the eighteen hundreds. There's one in 175 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.919 particular that sticks out my mind is that a girl 176 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:28.440 caused the boy to be murdered. She was walking by 177 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:32.639 a small encampment of basically Mexican woodcutters. She got home 178 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.840 tells her dad that one of the is some boy 179 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.720 there made some comment to her that was unseemly. They 180 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.639 go back there and they forced the people there to 181 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:44.360 whip this boy, and they whip him to death. And 182 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.799 then the girl says, well, you know, he really didn't 183 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:49.679 say that to me. I lied about it and just 184 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:55.720 went on. Nothing happened. There was a wholesale slaughter of 185 00:11:55.879 --> 00:12:01.600 thirty four Chinese miners along the river that have their 186 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.240 story in there and the people who were caught and 187 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:09.559 why they did it. Interesting one about two teenage female 188 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:14.159 outlaws that were very young and they take off and 189 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:19.120 they were selling alcohol to the Indians, which was illegal, 190 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:22.120 and when the posse started going after them, they had 191 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:24.919 to shootout with the posse and the only reason they 192 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.840 surrendered because they ran out of AMMO And it was 193 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:32.039 kind of looked at as a crime shooting out with 194 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.720 the deputies, but it really wasn't handled that way. They 195 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:37.360 just basically took him in sent him to a reform school, 196 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:43.039 you know something. Yeah, they're just very very strange stories 197 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:51.000 in there, and one's about other people. There's a lot 198 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:54.159 of axing going on, people being axed to death, and 199 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.759 so there's stories about that. And then an interesting editorial 200 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:04.159 I closed book with where the newspaper said, don't make 201 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:10.080 heroes out of criminals, and that was based on a 202 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.200 fellow that shot his girlfriend through the head and left 203 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.840 her out next to a road. And they were kind 204 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:19.960 of planed it up like they do today in some respects. 205 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.080 You know, they get a lot of coverage and they're 206 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.480 kind of turning them into a hero and so forth. 207 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:27.360 So there's just a lot a lot of stories like. 208 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:34.080 That what I would you mentioned too as well, But 209 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:38.440 lots of these stories with the media, there wasn't a 210 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:43.720 legal barrier at that time, so it did allow them 211 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:46.279 to have access to detectives. And like you say, they 212 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.960 often went along with detectives in some of these stories 213 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:55.279 and were instrumental and discovering evidence as well. So this 214 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:02.120 is unique aspect of these stories. Tell us some of 215 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.720 the other things that were evident when you went through 216 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.919 this information that really bring these stories to life like 217 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:11.919 no other way. 218 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:16.919 Well, one is that they are very detailed. When I'm 219 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.240 talking about that, they'll say that the person took an 220 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.039 axe and split their skull open and the brains were 221 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:26.080 scattered throughout the room. And so for the very graphic 222 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:31.200 and very detailed where today, well, when I was a 223 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:34.320 cop investigating things like that, you would never release those 224 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:36.919 details of one. You'd never let a reporter into a 225 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:41.960 crime scene to look around. And there's certain things that 226 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:45.399 you would always keep confidential because only the killer would know, 227 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:48.720 so then you can eliminate people who are giving false confessions. 228 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:53.039 But in these cases, in these stories, the reporters in 229 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:57.720 most cases were there. They accompanied the detectives or the 230 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.600 shriff or whoever was to the scene. They many cases, 231 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.240 they found the evidence, some of the evidence, and they 232 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.720 examined it, and then they went to a lot of 233 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:10.879 the people who were arrested and they would get an 234 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:15.120 interview from them fairly. Fascina, why did you kill so 235 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:19.240 and so? Well, you know, he healed me five dollars 236 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:21.080 and he went pay it back, So I took an 237 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.080 axe and cut his head off, and they would just 238 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.240 lay it out where today, well, for the last forty 239 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.840 to fifty years, it said you got to mirandize people. 240 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:32.120 You can't do this, you can't do that. If they 241 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:35.480 say they want an attorney, that ends everything, even if 242 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:37.840 they say they want their mother. A lot of times 243 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:43.919 the investigation, with the interrogation and so it brings back 244 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:47.720 what an investigation was conduct how it was conducted in 245 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:53.679 the eighteen hundreds, what went on before mirandizing, before you know, 246 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:58.279 attorney's really got involved, how the cops would operate, and 247 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:04.320 in many cases, the suspects of the arrest, thee they 248 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:08.720 would just absolutely come out and just confess proudly. And 249 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.399 then when they were being taken to the gallows to 250 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.360 be executed. You know, a lot of them just walked 251 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:16.960 up there said hey, this is part of the game. 252 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:19.399 Now I'm going to be hung. And they were very 253 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:25.000 cool and collected, and they confessed once more before they 254 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.120 were hung. So it's just it brings that history to 255 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:33.080 life by reading this, the words and the quotes that 256 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.720 are in there, and the interrogations and so forth, it's 257 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:41.159 just it's just a fascinating look at crime from over 258 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.440 a century ago, how they were investigated, how people were 259 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:50.440 treated as far as criminals. In most cases, there was 260 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.759 very few appeals. If they were convicted in the say 261 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.759 a county court and they were sends to death in 262 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:02.120 most cases there was no peel. That was it. 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We're prohibited by lock eight team plus 281 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:55.440 terms and conditions applag see website for details. 282 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.880 Let's talk about the serial killers that you do do 283 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.279 cover here, because of course they're some of the most 284 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:10.680 famous and the coverage of it is absolutely fascinating as 285 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.559 well that you include in this book. Let's start with 286 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:17.640 a little bit of what you did learn about probably 287 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:22.359 a killer that you knew someone about, Bell Dunnis, through 288 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.960 these articles that you present in this book. 289 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:31.000 Yeah. Bell was a very interesting woman, needless to say, 290 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:36.880 very cold, very deliberate in the way she murdered people. 291 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.680 She was for a better term. She had like a 292 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:43.839 B and B and she would invite men over and 293 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:48.440 sometimes she would marry them, sometimes she wouldn't, And when 294 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.240 they would go to bed, she would chloroform them and 295 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.559 if that didn't kill them outright, she would just sometimes 296 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:59.079 use an eye for using axe and behead them, and 297 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:01.480 then she would take them out to her garden and 298 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.680 bury them. In many cases, from all the stories I 299 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:08.400 read about it is that she would generally plant something 300 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.359 over where she buried the person, a small tree, some 301 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.640 other plant, and that way she would know not to 302 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:16.759 bury the next one there, because she would dig up 303 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.319 the one that she buried the day before or the 304 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:25.880 month before. So she was interesting. And then it appears 305 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.440 once some people got on to her what she was doing, 306 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:33.839 she had for a better term, a helper that would 307 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:38.920 help her now. And then Ray Lampierre and her house 308 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:43.359 was burned down, and in the basement, once you know, 309 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:46.200 everything was settled, they found three children, and she had 310 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.759 three children. They found the body's three children. They found 311 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.680 the body of a woman that was beheaded, and they 312 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.480 didn't find the head, and so they were guessing, said, well, 313 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:01.400 this might be Belle because the body size is about 314 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:04.839 the same, but it may not because she was so ruthless. 315 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.559 She would have killed her three kids and also found 316 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:13.640 somebody else killed that woman, took her head so she 317 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.920 couldn't be identified, and it just took off. And so 318 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.920 the mystery remains is that Bell was that her body 319 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.039 or not in the basement of that burned out house. 320 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:28.599 And so when you get into the details how she 321 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:35.440 operated and how she was discovered, it's truly fascinating. The 322 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:39.319 detailed work that some other people did back then looking 323 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:43.599 for relatives that they knew went past her house and 324 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.240 then they started coming back to wait a minute, we 325 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:50.880 think she may be the person involved. And when it 326 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:54.559 started closing in on her, that's when the house went down, 327 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.480 and some believed at the time that it was her 328 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:02.799 farm hand who held bury the bodies, basically killed her 329 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:05.799 and burned the house down with the kids because there 330 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:08.000 was a deal that went down and he didn't believe 331 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:11.400 he was paid enough for it from this one killing. 332 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.559 So it's just a fascinating look at a female serial 333 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:21.200 killer from that timeframe. And frankly, there aren't that many 334 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.519 serial killers, as you know, most of them are males. 335 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:27.799 So it takes you into the psychic of this woman 336 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:33.160 and the way she brutally murdered people and just went 337 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.599 about her business like she's slaughtering a hog. You know. 338 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:39.680 Sometimes she would go out and feed them to her 339 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:44.920 hogs in the Little Wallow area. And when the police 340 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.279 finally were there looking around one of the hogs came 341 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.119 up and had a human bone in its mouth it 342 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.559 was gnawing on. So yeah, she was pretty cruel. 343 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:01.839 Yes, you talk about next Bender family, which you call 344 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:06.640 the most intriguing serial killer family during the late eighteen hundreds. 345 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:11.440 Oh well, most intriguing serial killer family period, but operating 346 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:16.400 during the late eighteen hundreds, family of four and again 347 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:19.880 sort of not a bed and breakfast, but inviting travelers 348 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.160 to have a meal and spend the night, very similar 349 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.240 to I guess a bed and breakfast. Tell us what 350 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.200 this ends up being, the legend of where these people went. 351 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:34.359 Tell us a little bit about what these articles inform 352 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:37.039 people about the Bender family. 353 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:42.880 To these articles, well, the articles talked about the beginning, 354 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.960 how they were, what they were doing, and how they 355 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:50.559 were killing people, and how was discovered, and then how 356 00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:56.279 the Benders vanished and basically what they would do. They had, 357 00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:59.160 like you said, they had a small for a better term, 358 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.440 a small room that was a store in their house. 359 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:03.759 And they had a house out in the middle of 360 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.839 nowhere along this traveled dirt road, and when people are 361 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:12.200 going by, primarily they'd invite men in to spend the night, 362 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:15.160 single men if they thought they had any money with them, 363 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:22.200 many valuables, and the daughter she would engage the person 364 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:24.599 in the conversation. They had a table where they sat 365 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.599 down deep. They'd always put the person's back to the 366 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.640 window that was opened directly behind them. And as the daughter, 367 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:37.480 who was like early twenties, would engage the person in conversation, 368 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:40.079 either the father or husband would come up behind them 369 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.319 hit him in the back of the head with a 370 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:46.480 hammer or an axe. There was a trap door just 371 00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:49.519 below them. They'd pull the trap door, the person would 372 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.640 fall into the basement, and if they were still alive, 373 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:58.079 the mother was down there with a large knife for 374 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:02.400 an axe, and she would behead the person, and then 375 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:04.880 they would go ahead and take the valuables and so forth. 376 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.000 And once again they would take the body out and 377 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:11.480 bury them at night somewhere on their property, generally in 378 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:16.079 there near the gardens and so forth. And this went 379 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:18.480 on for some time, and it was like an early 380 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:21.920 version B and B. So it was very bloody. And 381 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:28.400 when they were basically being detected what they were doing, 382 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:33.119 they took off one night, all of them. And over 383 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.680 the next few years there would be a story about 384 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:40.000 a bender or somebody they thought was a bender. One 385 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:44.440 of the men or one of the women were apprehended 386 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.400 in North Carolina, and then they'd find out, no, that 387 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.400 wasn't one of the Benders, and then there'd be another 388 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.680 one apprehended someplace else. No, that wasn't them. So the 389 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:58.599 whole family just vanished, and to this day, nobody knows 390 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:01.720 where they went. They split up or they stayed together, 391 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.160 but they were never caught. And so it was again 392 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:12.839 a very interesting story that you would see on forty 393 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:17.960 eight Hours or something like that, but they escaped, and 394 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.400 it's one of the great mysteries what happened to the Benders. 395 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:29.240 So it's a very detailed story, and it goes through 396 00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:31.720 a number of the people they killed, and how the 397 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:34.319 bodies were found, in the condition of the bodies when 398 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:39.200 they were discovered on the property, and a good number 399 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:41.759 of bodies, and they probably did not find all the 400 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:46.480 bodies if they buried them away from the house, because 401 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.160