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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday,

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June first, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host of

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the show, Doctor Kara Santa Maria, And as always, before

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we dive into this week's episode, I want to thank

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those of you who make Talk Nerdy possible. Remember for

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the last six hundred four episodes, Yes, that is the

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number we are on. So that is what eleven no,

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twelve years coming on twelve years. This show is and

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will always be one hundred percent free to download. I'm

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also not in a podcast network. This is an independently

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produced show, so we rely we When I say we,

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it's me, but I really do rely on the incredible

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support from my podcast coordinator and long term executive assistant,

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Noah Dilworth, along with all of the fine folks at

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warp Zone Post to do my post production, my editing

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And yeah, we're a small outfit and we rely on

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If you are in a position where you can give

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dot com. That's p A t R e O N

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dot com, slash talk Nerdy to learn more. This week's

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top patrons include Chuck Blell, David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang,

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Mary Neiva Will Defrain, David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabo, jay

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Ulrica Hagmann, Pasqually, Jelati, Rica Maharaj and Joe Wilkinson. Thank

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you all so much. So today I had the opportunity

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to chat with doctor Jenny Durant. She is a freelance

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writer and affiliate researcher at UC Davis, and she focuses

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on bees, agriculture, and the environment. And she has a

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new book out it's called Bitter Honey, Big Ags, Threat

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to Bees and the Fight to save Them. So, without

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any further ado, here she is doctor Jenny Durant. Well, Jenny,

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thank you so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Carl, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited to talk about your new book, Bitter Honey,

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Big Aggs, Threat to Bees and the Fight to save them.

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I'm also I'm just excited to be talking to somebody

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who does a lot of you know, freelance writing journalism,

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but has the qualifications. I mean, you have a PhD

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in Environmental science, policy and management. You are able to

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read the literature when you write at these topics. And

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one thing that I've found as a you know, scientist

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clinician in a completely different field, when I'm tasked with

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talking about news stories around the impact of you know,

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whether we're talking about bees. I think a lot of

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people do tend to be like particularly interested in bees

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because of their role in agriculture, but insects in general,

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and the relationship between monocropping or the relationship between pesticides

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or different herbicides. It is so hard for me sometimes

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to know what is rhetoric and what the science actually shows.

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And so I'm excited to be to be talking to

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you about this big and somewhat complex topic today.

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Speaker 2: Me too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So tell me a little bit about yourself before

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we dig into into all things bees. I mentioned that

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you're a writer and a freelance writer and and science communicator,

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but you also do maintain some university affiliations as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. I'm a currently research affiliate at UC

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Davis and I am also working on a collaborative research

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project with researcher at the University of Illinois and one

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at USTA on looking at pesticides. And so I'm still

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got my you know, feet in that world, but I

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am kind of branching out and doing more writing and

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sort of journalism and science communication.

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Speaker 1: M when you were still in school, like when you

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were finishing your PhD, and then when you went on

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to your post doc, and I guess even beyond with

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some of these current research affiliations, what were you studying

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at the time, kind of what has been the trajectory

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of your research questions.

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Speaker 2: It's a great question. Yeah. So I I actually really

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came into my PhD program with an interest in two things.

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One of them was I had this background in studying

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rice cultures. So I did a Fulbright scholarship in the

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Philippines in the rice terraces in a town called Banawe,

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and I was studying how introduced genetically modified rice had

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really upended the traditional cultures in the region. And while

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I was there, I actually got interested in bees. I

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was homesick and there were some other things going on,

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and I read The Secret Life of Bees by Sumunk Kid,

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and so then I got I went and did this

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like mini internship on kind of like a little resort

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on a different island in the Philippines, and I really

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just fell in love with bees. And so I did

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start off my PhD thinking I was going to kind

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of study Rice, and then I was like, I'm just

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really into bees. And so this was twenty twelve, and

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my poor advisor has this like incredible is she's just

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so well known for her work in Indonesia and was

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like so excited for me to work in Southeast Asia,

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and I was like, I want to study these in California.

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She's Fancy Paluso and she she's a real sort of

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titan in that field and in a social science field

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called political cology, and so I think she was intrigued.

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And I was looking at my social scientists, and so

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I was looking at, you know, the sort of social, political,

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economic drivers of be losses because there was this big

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question to back up a little back in two thousand

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and seven with colony collapse disorder, which is when I

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got into bees. Was in two thousand and seven, that's

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when my Fulbright scholarship was and so anyway, I was

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like kind of intrigued by this mystery that was really

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mystifying scientists, like why are all these bees dying? It

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was this kind of phenomenon where bees big beekeepers would

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open their hives and bees had just disappeared from the

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colonies and we didn't know why. And so that was

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kind of where I was on that farm and colony

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collapse disorder was happening at the same time, and I

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was just like, what is going on? What's happening? And

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so I kept kind of trying to do different things

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and move on from the topic, but it kept coming

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back to me. And so that was when I applied

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to the PhD program. And so really after my first year,

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to get back to your question, I was, I kind

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of switched my first semester and was like, I'm gonna

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do this be thing. I started going to conferences, bekeeping conferences,

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meeting beekeepers, attending meetings like with the EPA, because I'm

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in California and you know, this huge portion of be

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heaper of like almost you know, almost all commercial beekeepers

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come to California in that so it was this really

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great opportunity. I was really positioned well geographically to study

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the end and it was in my backyard and so

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I just kind of jumped on that wagon and kept going.

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And I've honestly it's been my main focus since twenty twelve,

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so over fourteen years now.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So what was it do you think, like really

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that made you so interested in that? Was it really

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just because it was kind of an unsolved mystery at

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the time. Do you have any personal I don't know,

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like deeper personal connection to big egg or to like

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bees from childhood or something.

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Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and it's kind of an

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existential one when you've been like fourteen years, I'm like,

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why am I so into these bees? And I've been

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interested since you know, two thousand and seven, so almost

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almost twenty years now. And I I mean sometimes I'm like,

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I have no idea, but I I do think they

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are this this kind OF's going to sound corny as

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a scientist, but kind of magical creature. They are. Just

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there's so many interesting ways that bees operate as a colony,

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the sort of feet, the way that they work together.

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Like for example, you know, there's a statistic that a

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single honey bee only produces one twelfth of a teaspoon

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of honey, and that a hive can fly. There's another

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one that I was reading the other day, like a

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hive can fly two times around the earth, like something

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like fifty thousand miles to produce a pound of honey.

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And when you just think about the immense work and

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when you understand bees more and the immense work that's required,

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they're pretty inspiring. But I will also say I really

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love beekeepers. I think that's probably what has kept me

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studying this is they are quirky and funny and kind

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of they just they have great stories. They're for independent,

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They kind of some of them describe themselves as like

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the cow you know cowboys, like ranching their bees, you know,

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driving their their bees and trucks cross country, and I

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kind of think of them in that way, and they're

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they're just so and I really wanted a place to

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highlight those stories. So I just had such a great

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and interesting time and was so compelled by their stories

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while I was in the field that I really wanted

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to write the book as an opportunity to highlight their

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voices and their stories and and really you know, shine

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a light on this broader context of our farms, our

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food system, and our our agricultural system that they're operating in.

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So I think, really, when I when I really think

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about it, it's it's the bee hebirds that have kept

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me invested for for so long. Oh, I love that.

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Speaker 1: And so let's let's get into that then, because you know,

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I guess when we talk about this threat maybe, yeah,

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I mean, you use it in the in the subhead

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of your book, A big eggs threat to bees and

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the fight to save them, this sort of threat, maybe

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you can help us understand a little bit about what

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is going on with regards to colony collapse and you know,

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some of the more complex variables at play.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I was first kind of finding out

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about it, so back in two thousand and seven, again

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with Colonie Clock's disorder to return there, we you know,

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researchers really didn't understand what was going on, What was

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causing this very specific phenomenon of a colony kind of

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disappearing from the hive is typically just so people understand,

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typically what would happen is, you know, maybe the forager

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bees that go out and gather nectar and honey, they

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might leave for the day and maybe they get hit

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by pesticides and so a more typical loss would be

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you'd have those bees, some of them flying back, dying

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out side the hive, or dying in the hive and

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being pushed out of the hive, and so there would

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be some kind of marker or obvious loss that a

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beekeeper could see, or the bees are dying slowly of

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some disease or some virus and you track it over time.

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So it's really unusual. Because bees are so protective of

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their queen and of the bee larva and of honey,

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it's really unusual to open a coliy and have nothing

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inside or very little inside except typically what you'd find

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is maybe a queen and some bee larva and some

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nurse bees, which are kind of the young bees that

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are feeding the bee larva. So that phenomenon I mentioned

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that because that phenomenon has been much less prevalent and

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we still kind of haven't really figured out what was

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causing that, but some and beekeepers are kind of like, oh,

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I think it's this or that. So some might say

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it's pesticides, and some might say it's verroa mites, which

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are this like kind of like a crab like looking

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tick that feasts on bees. What do you call it?

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Fat bodies that so it's kind of like if you

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had a giant crab on the side of your body

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feeding on your liver, and so just wherever you're walking,

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you've got that crab. They're kind of feeding on you

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and transmitting diseases, and so it's pretty nasty. And this

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is the number one killer of managed colony managed colonies.

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But it's this every time we kind of talk about

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bee losses in terms of one thing that's killing them,

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like pesticides or mites, it's problematic because they really the

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issues really feed into each other, and so for example,

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pesticides can make bees more prone make and make them

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kind of weaker and less able to fight off the

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viruses that the mites are passing to them. And mites

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are becoming more virulent in part because of the pesticides

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that beekeepers are using to try to kill them off

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and to control them, and they're becoming resistant to those

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over time. And beekeepers are so intensely managing their bees

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because they need to have as many colonies as possible

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for mostly the almond industry each February, and so as

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I sort of was talking to beekeepers, my initial research

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question was how have beekeepers changed their management practices over

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the last twenty years to pollinate for the almond industry,

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and how maybe is that contributing to honeybe vulnerability and beekeepers,

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you know, would be the first to tell me that

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they know that their management practices for almonds are making

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their bees more vulnerable. But they're in this really tough

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bind because they're having such a hard time getting by

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as an industry because of cheap honey prices, because forage

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is disappearing. And so the more I just dove into

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these questions, I started seeing how interlinked the problems were.

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You know that that you know, pesticides being applied, this

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is part of industrial agriculture. Beekeepers intensively managing their bees,

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this is to help pollinate for industrial agriculture. Foraged being lost,

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and so bees aren't able to feed on natural nectar

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and pollen in the ways that they have in the past.

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And a lot of this is because of agricultural monoculture agriculture,

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and because of the use of herbicides, you know, to

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help promote monoculture agriculture. And so I just started seeing

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like this is all industrial agriculture. It's partly the way

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bees keepers are managing their bees. And it's also the

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way we manage our farms and the land that you know,

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we're growing crops on. So that was where that that

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threat is. It's sort of a combined series of pressures,

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all squeezing beekeepers and bees, you know, kind of to

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their breaking point.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because I can't help but see

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a parallel and you, because you're so steeped in this,

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you might be able to help me find where my

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analogy works and where it breaks down. And actually it

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may be a little bit personal for you, So you

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just tell me if you want to continue down this

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thread or you don't. But one of the things that

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I think about when I think about the description that

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you just gave is antibiotic resistant bacteria, antibiotic resistant infections,

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and sort of the arms race that we have to

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try to fight them back, developing new and different antibiotics,

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and then the bacteria learn a way to you know,

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outsmart it, and then it just keeps on going. And

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another example I often use in my practice, because I'm

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a psychologist in a cancer center here in LA is

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describing why cancer treatments often will work for a while

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and then they fail is that overtime, the cancer learn

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how to evade the chemotherapy or you know, these different

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chemical approaches to treatment. And so I can't help but

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feel like there is an arms race going on as

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well between these farmers trying to maintain a healthy crop

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and ensure that pests aren't decimating their crops, and at

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the same time realizing that there's healthy tissue being killed

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by these different approaches, and that there's a it's a

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large kind of system, and you have to find that

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balance between protecting you know, the healthy tissue, the non

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cancer as cells, beating back the cancer as cells. In

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this case, the healthy tissue is the bees, you know,

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and and continuing to be able to ensure that all

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of the interested parties or all of the outcomes that

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you're hoping for exist in a balance.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's it's a great analogy. And yes,

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I mean full disclosure. I a breast cancer survivor, and

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I do write about breast cancer. I caught it very early,

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but I do, you know, track that world, and so

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I appreciate the metaphor, and I do talk about to

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kind of touch on both your metaphors. I do talk

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talk about the antibiotic resistance and how that how the

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parallel there because it is very similar, and so what

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will happen sometimes is be heapers might use this and

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they've been using the same heavy duty pesticide which is

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commonly known as tactic. It's a chemical called amatrask, and

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most recently they had these huge sixty percent losses last winter,

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which is just astound. I mean, it's a statistic, so

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it's easy to kind of tune it out, but sixty

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percent of the entire nation's colonies. It was around one

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point seven million colonies that were lost last winter, and

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what they found was that they primarily died from diseases

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spread by verroamites. But what was interesting was that most

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of the varroamites were resistant to tactic, to this chemical

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that heepers are using. And so even if beekeepers were

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doing all the right things, they were treating their bees,

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you know, they were managing the way they should, these

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mites are becoming resistant and they hadn't for decades. And

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that's why this chemical was used, because this resistance would

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happen with other chemicals and they weren't seeing it there,

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and so it's been a source of enormous stress and

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fear because it's really hard to get new pesticides for

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the beekeeping industry approved because it's such a small industry

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and the R and D is so expensive for new

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agrichemicals that be heepers, that there just hasn't been a

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lot of like financial incentive for chemical companies to invest

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in good varroamticides, and so they've really struggled. They've really

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had very few options to manage their mights. And the

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other piece, you know, to the cancer piece, and you know,

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I'm thinking of like how immunotherapy is becoming of interest,

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this idea that we look at how we can boost

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our immune system's ability to fight off cancer rather than

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just trying to kill all the cancer cells. And I

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think that that is something that and that's like, you know,

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my very rough summary of immuno therapy, but I think

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that that's kind of what we're seeing a bit in

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in farming, especially with like regenerative farming and you know,

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diversified farming, small scale agriculture where farmers are growing a

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variety of crops instead of one crop. Is that we're

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seeing that the more diversity we have on farm, we're

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attracting beneficial pests, and so you don't need to use

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as many pesticides, if any, because you've got these i'm sorry,

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beneficial predators of our pests. You know, you attract beneficial

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insects that can attack the pests instead of you having

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to spray chemicals and you the farmer, and so it's

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I think that what we're seeing is that, you know,

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promoting sort of this broader health of our ecosystems. And

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a farm is an ecosystem, right that that is an

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important strategy we need to be embracing to help address

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the all these issues that are coming up with monoculture farming.

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Speaker 1: You know, I can't help but flag and you know

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this is.

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Speaker 2: This.

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Speaker 1: I'm a science communicator, you're a science communicator. I've this

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is not an area that I've like been kind of

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communicating about or writing about frequently or with with any

346
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specific depth over other areas, but it's definitely an area

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that has been part of the conversation for quite some time.

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And one thing that I noticed living out here in

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Los Angeles is that I have friends and and loved

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ones who will sometimes take the what I would view

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as a very simplistic tack of this is all because

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of big ag This is all because of GMOs. And

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I'll hear this all the time. And obviously there's a

354
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lot of breakdown that we can do here.

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Speaker 2: We don't have to spend.

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Speaker 1: The whole hour on it. But I worry sometimes that

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when individuals start to argue against the use, for example,

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of glyfhassa, which has been linked, you know, to colony

359
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collapse disorder, but just linked, that they start to argue,

360
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you know, why, why are you against genetic modification? Why

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are you against the use of round up ready crops?

362
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Why are you against? And it always kind of ends

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up being monocropping is bad, and I'm like, wait, but

364
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that's not what you started out arguing against. And so

365
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I'm really curious what your experience has been digging into

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the sort of very passionate rhetoric and I guess advocacy

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within farming communities, within big or even small agriculture, and

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sort of the difference I think between the regular everyday

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person on the street who actually doesn't work in a

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farming capacity at all their views of genetically modified crops

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and the types of especially specifically like round up ready crops.

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So the types of pesticides that are used on them,

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and then what's actually happening in practice with different farmers.

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Speaker 2: It's a great point, and I want to start by

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just responding by saying how much I mean. I've been

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working in farming, you know, in agriculture for you know,

377
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since twenty twelve and was interested in it far but

378
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before that, and a lot of my research has also

379
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involved interviewing almond growers. And I also when I was

380
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at Davis, did an interview with small sorry, a survey,

381
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a large scale survey with small diversified farmers on how

382
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they were affected during the COVID pandemic. And so I

383
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have so much empathy for any farmer, monoculture, any kind

384
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of farmer, because I think that this system that they're

385
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in is incredibly hard to compete in and to it's

386
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just really hard to make food for profit, and just

387
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a profit off of the earth, you know, like that

388
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is a hard thing because it's a finite resource, and

389
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because there are ecological limitations to that kind of a

390
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profit model with anything that's ecological. And so I have

391
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a lot of empathy they are on most farmers are

392
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on some kind of treadmill and I have a friend

393
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who I profile in the book, Jonathan Lundgrend, and he

394
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has done a lot of research with regenerative farmers and

395
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sort of conventional farmers, and he just talks about how

396
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exhaustive farmers are and how stressed out they are, and

397
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how worried they are about losing their land, and how

398
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many of them don't want to be farming that way.

399
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And so I'm not actually anti monoculture in general, but

400
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,119
I do think that I mean, there are some crops

401
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,599
like it makes sense when you are growing almonds to

402
00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:31,079
just grow almonds, you know, on a plot of land,

403
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because of if you're trying to grow for scale in

404
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,480
any way, you know, the way is the harvesting is

405
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:40,480
just so much easier when you have machinery to do it,

406
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and you can get that machinery into the orchard if

407
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you have sort of standard orchard rows. But what I

408
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,960
do think is that we can be constantly thinking about

409
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how to add diversity back in even to monoculture farms,

410
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and we may need to really rethink the scale on

411
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which we're growing monoculture egg If we have these huge,

412
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giant farms, there is inevitably going to be an ecological

413
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disconnect and they inevitably be kind of demand, you know,

414
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,920
pesticide use or GMO use. I'm not against any of

415
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,839
those things, but I'm not really here even to be

416
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,440
prescriptive as a scientist. But what I can highlight is that,

417
00:26:24,759 --> 00:26:28,480
you know, in my conversations with farmers, our current system

418
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:34,559
is really challenging. It's very difficult to promote life on

419
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,400
a lot of our monoculture farms, and that includes bees,

420
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but also you know, all the other insects and birds

421
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that used to interact with our diverse farms when they

422
00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:48,759
were smaller and kind of had many more crops on them.

423
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We used to have a more integrated farming system before

424
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we converted to monoculture. But the benefit of it is

425
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that it's been able to feed you know, so many

426
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people too. So I think that in general, I do

427
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,559
think we need to be rethinking on culture farming and

428
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,200
the benefits of it and how ways that we can

429
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,480
add diversity back in. But I'm definitely not here to

430
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,200
demonize farming, and I think that those solutions that are

431
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,720
going to work best are going to come within partnership

432
00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:22,160
with farmers, because they need to be the ones that

433
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,279
are helping us understand their limitations, their struggles, what's challenging

434
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:31,319
about farming, the resources that they need, and what tools

435
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,119
they need to help do these environmentally, you know, and

436
00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:40,039
more environmentally sort of regenerative or supportive practices like helping pollinators.

437
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,440
They need support. They can't do it in the structure

438
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,160
that they have currently. They can't afford it, and so

439
00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:47,240
we really need to be thinking about how to work

440
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,400
in partnership with them to support them because a lot

441
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,400
of them want to be better stewards of the land.

442
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,119
They just don't have the ability, resources, time, you know,

443
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,200
knowledge to do so.

444
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Speaker 1: And we can't stay sort of as we can't remain

445
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I think the uninformed citizens that we often do. I

446
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,839
feel like this is one of those areas where there's

447
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,960
such a massive disconnect between the downstream user, right the

448
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,160
person who ends up with the food on their plate,

449
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and where it came from and what's involved in producing it.

450
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I was just working with PBS on a series recently

451
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,920
on Earth Focus and coming across the statistic that like,

452
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,480
some of the most food insecure people in the state

453
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,960
of California are the very farm hands that are working

454
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the fields.

455
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Speaker 2: I mean, it shouldn't be.

456
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,559
Speaker 1: That way right, Like, we know that's a perfect sort

457
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:44,839
of meta example of these failures. But I'm curious if

458
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,960
part of the I guess, part of my frustration. And

459
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,200
I'm wondering if you've seen this in your own research

460
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,240
when you are talking to these farmers and you're talking

461
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,240
to people whose boots are on the ground, and you know,

462
00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:02,759
researchers in agriculture and university settings as well, and then

463
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:06,480
you talk to everyday people at you know, whole foods

464
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,319
are air one, and do you find that they often

465
00:29:09,519 --> 00:29:17,599
conflate monocropping or patenting you know, food or seeds for example,

466
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,559
they conflate that with the process that is genetic modification,

467
00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:26,680
and they sort of paint everything with a broad brush.

468
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't understand gene modification,

469
00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:35,640
and I think that they're I mean, farmers, farming is

470
00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:39,240
a kind of genetic modification we have been. I mean,

471
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,599
if you look at sort of the original apple you

472
00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:44,720
know apples like say back from where they were first

473
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:45,960
came in the Middle East or.

474
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Speaker 1: Or yeah, you know you don't want to eat any

475
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:48,799
of that stuff.

476
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: And they don't taste great. I mean they related them

477
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,720
over hundreds and hundreds of years, right to get to

478
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:01,079
get these like delicious juicy apples and then but that's

479
00:30:01,119 --> 00:30:02,359
not the narrative though, Right.

480
00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: The narrative is, here's an heirloom tomato. Heirloom means it's ancient.

481
00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:10,880
Heirloom means we didn't do all that dirty science to it,

482
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:12,759
and this tastes better. And it's like, no, that airlom

483
00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:15,200
tomato is also from the seventies, like, you know, like

484
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,440
we're not you're not talking about a strawberry that existed

485
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,079
on a different continent and wasn't crossed yet and didn't

486
00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:24,440
get like juicy and sweet and delicious, like most things

487
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,799
were pretty before we figured out how to make them better.

488
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:31,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, although you know, I want to put uh, you know,

489
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,759
there's two points, a couple points there, so one of them.

490
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:36,440
As far as like the heirloom point, I mean, I

491
00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:40,920
do think that the value of promoting heirloom species is

492
00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:46,839
maintaining genetic diversity. Yeah, definitely. We have you know, potato varieties.

493
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,960
You know that we you know that our heirloom potatoes.

494
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,759
And it sounds corny, it's maybe it sounds like a

495
00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:57,039
marketing strategy, but it can also mean this is a

496
00:30:57,079 --> 00:30:59,759
potato that's been around for so long, and we want

497
00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:03,920
to meet the diversity of our potato species because simplification

498
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:08,079
in any ecological system is dangerous and just relying on

499
00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,200
as we saw with Irish potato famine one type of

500
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,039
potato is very dangerous. So it is important to maintain uh,

501
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,359
you know, heirloom varieties and I have, you know, I

502
00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:22,079
think I think there's a lot of value in that

503
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,960
because not just for general diversity, but also because there

504
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,759
are you know, communities that have long time relationships with

505
00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:34,279
these crops too, and there's cultural value to some of

506
00:31:34,319 --> 00:31:37,200
these you know, kind of older airlom varieties too, So

507
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,119
I do see the benefit.

508
00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's an important point to make too,

509
00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:45,880
because I also see the benefit to having you know,

510
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,640
a lot of genetic diversity. I think my concern is

511
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,759
that people don't know what heirloom means. They think it

512
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,279
means that it's like ancient and that it's untouched, but

513
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,079
really what it means is that it's an open pollinated

514
00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:02,920
plant and that it has been around for a specific

515
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,160
amount of time, so it's it's very genetically diverse, and

516
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,599
it's at least older than fifty years.

517
00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:11,119
Speaker 2: That is old, right.

518
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that it's you know, a Babylonian tomato.

519
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,599
And I think people literally think there's the before times

520
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,720
and there's the now times, and they commit a naturalistic fallacy.

521
00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:25,200
Now that we have science, everything is bad. Everything before

522
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,880
science was quote natural and good.

523
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,279
Speaker 2: Totally agree the other thing. I think we're totally in

524
00:32:32,319 --> 00:32:34,359
agreement here, and I think but I would add one

525
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,960
other piece, which is I think where genetic modification concerns

526
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,400
me is situations like what I saw in the Philippines,

527
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,039
which is where you introduce a new species thinking hey,

528
00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:50,680
this is going to help you, you know, your problems

529
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,920
with growing grace. Now you can grow rice twice a year,

530
00:32:54,519 --> 00:32:58,680
and there can be these unintended consequences if local communities

531
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,880
were not involved in that process. And so like what

532
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,960
I saw in the Philippines was that this rice culture

533
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:10,160
that had gone from kind of like planting rice once

534
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,240
a year, and there were just like rituals built into

535
00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:16,400
you know, for the harvest, for the planting, there were

536
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,799
you know, like it was thousands of years that they

537
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,440
had been developing these these cultures, this culture, and then

538
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,920
this new rice was introduced and it was it could

539
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,599
be harvested twice a year, and so it really began

540
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,400
eroding some not only some of these traditions, but also

541
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,599
it had unintended ecological consequences as well. It really disrupted

542
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,839
the kind of biome or microbiome of the of the

543
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,000
rice terraces as well. And so I think my big

544
00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:53,680
sort of red flag around or I have no fear

545
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,920
of that science, it's more how it's implemented. And we

546
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,680
need to be doing gyg modific case in partnership with

547
00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:06,880
the communities who were getting these DNA these biological resources

548
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,239
from and doing it in partnership and implementing in partnership

549
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,119
so that it's not this yet another kind of you know,

550
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:16,760
green revolution that's sort of pushed on you know, communities.

551
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,280
It's it's done in partnership. And I think that changing

552
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,480
that approach, and that is happening you know, around the world,

553
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,039
but coming from that approach, I think will will kind

554
00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:30,119
of take the best of both worlds this, you know,

555
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:36,039
these indigenous knowledges and local community knowledge and these scientific tools,

556
00:34:36,079 --> 00:34:38,559
and I think together that we can like you know,

557
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:41,400
really accomplish some incredible things with our food.

558
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:46,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'd be curious if you agree or disagree

559
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:48,320
with this, But I would even argue that that actually

560
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,280
has nothing to do with the fact that something is

561
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,760
genetically modified. It's one hundred percent of social justice issue.

562
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,280
And I am like one hundred percent on your side

563
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,280
when when you say that we cannot say, here a

564
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,559
thing that some scientists in a lab developed and we

565
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:06,440
think it's better for your culture. Right It's that's an

566
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,199
etic emic problem that we have seen throughout sociology, throughout

567
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,039
you know, Western science, and medicine across the board. But

568
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,639
there's nothing about the fact that that was a GM

569
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,039
crop that had that effect. It could have been produced

570
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,400
through conventional breeding as well that introduced crop and had

571
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,840
the same downstream effect. So the issue is not that

572
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,400
it was GM. The issue is that it was scientifically

573
00:35:33,599 --> 00:35:36,519
I shouldn't even say the issue was scientifically manipulated. It's

574
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:42,840
that it was a new and basically foreign crop introduced

575
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:48,079
in a not good way to a culture that already

576
00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:49,719
had a specific practice, right.

577
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,519
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think I think one of the you know,

578
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,679
I think we also contend to be kind of black

579
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,119
or white, like definitely some of the farmers in that area,

580
00:35:59,559 --> 00:36:02,480
you know, we're really happy about being able to have

581
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,960
a rice that they could harvest twice a year and

582
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,559
the financial benefits that can come from that, and some

583
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:11,039
of them didn't care that they were losing their kind

584
00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:14,719
of indigenous practices that you know, maybe I valued or

585
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,960
the outside world values, but maybe didn't wasn't as important,

586
00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:22,719
you know, to a particular farmer. And so I think

587
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,559
it's important just for me to state that, you know,

588
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,079
I definitely can't say whether that all these technologies have

589
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,679
their good sides and their dark sides, but I do

590
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,440
think in general, you know, when we are introducing a

591
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,320
new crop in a way that's not working collaboratively with

592
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,760
a local community, there are often problems that ensue.

593
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, I would agree with that completely,

594
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,360
I guess, just to put the final point on it,

595
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,159
because this is not even what your book is about.

596
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,400
One of the things that, yeah, one of the things

597
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:58,079
I get frustrated by is the fear, Like really it's

598
00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:03,679
kind of the unh uninitiated, un lack of depth that

599
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,159
comes from a fear of a specific technology, and when

600
00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:11,480
that technology becomes either banned or boycotted, very often the

601
00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:15,840
industry will just spend more money and more time working

602
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,599
to get the same outcome using other methods. They're like, Okay,

603
00:37:19,639 --> 00:37:21,360
so I can't make this a GM crop because you're

604
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,639
not going to buy it in the EU. Fine, I'll

605
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:26,039
spend three times as long to try and produce it

606
00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:28,679
through conventional breeding, and then I'll still sell you the

607
00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:31,920
same freaking crop, but I'll have shuffled around thirty thousand

608
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,519
genes instead of one gene, and it will have taken

609
00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,599
way longer, and there might be actually more unintended consequences

610
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:39,239
at the end of all of it. And I think

611
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,440
that's where I get frustrated and I'm curious about its effects.

612
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:45,639
Back to bees and honey, because I wonder if that

613
00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:49,880
goes back to that black and white thinking of industrial bad,

614
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,320
monocrop bad, or you know, GM bad. But these are good,

615
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,679
healthy things we can be doing for the bees. Let's

616
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:05,000
use non chemical let's use organic pesticides or herbicides like copper. Well,

617
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,440
that's not good either, And so it's like, I think

618
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,840
people think that they have an idea of what's best

619
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,159
for the planet based on the naturalistic or the appeal

620
00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:20,239
to nature fallacy, and then they don't even like, no,

621
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,800
they don't even read about this stuff like That's why

622
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,119
it's so important that you do the work you do,

623
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,239
because you're not just saying the bees are dying. Let's

624
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,719
talk about what farmers should do and then not talk

625
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,760
to farmers. They know what they need to.

626
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:41,519
Speaker 2: Do, yeah, and it's I mean they do, and also

627
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,519
they don't I mean right in the sense that I

628
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:48,760
mean any farmer is going to know more about how

629
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,159
to manage their orchard than an outsider will one hundred percent.

630
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:57,960
But a lot of farmers are being advised by crop advisors,

631
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:00,679
and some of them have I think I can't remember

632
00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:04,199
the exact percentage, but have you know, strong ties to

633
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,119
chemical industries. So what I mean is you know you'll

634
00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:11,800
have uh, a representative from a chemical industry and they

635
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,800
are advising the farmer on which pesticide to spray, and

636
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,760
so you have then a vested interest in higher chemical

637
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,559
use when that happens. And so the farmer doesn't particularly

638
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:28,360
know exactly what crops, you know, what what chemicals you

639
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,719
know are going to fix what issue, and they rely

640
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,480
on this outside advisor. But when that person is coming

641
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,760
from the chemical industry, you know that that can make

642
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,760
it make us more prone to having more ager chemicals

643
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,079
on our farms. But I want to get to your

644
00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:46,920
point about unintended consequences on that on that kind of

645
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,480
pesticide note, because one issue that's been a bit concerning

646
00:39:50,519 --> 00:39:55,920
for me is the pushback against neo nicketdenoids, not because

647
00:39:56,119 --> 00:40:00,639
I new nicodge nooids are documented as being problematic for bees,

648
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,119
particularly at the sublethal level, but meaning they can have

649
00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:08,880
sub lethal consequences for bees, like affecting their navigational abilities,

650
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:14,119
affecting health in the hive, affecting honey bee reproductivity. But

651
00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:17,920
they and they can also have lethal effects too, especially

652
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,440
with when a lot of corn and soy seeds are

653
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,400
coated in Unich to nooid dust, and then that when

654
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,000
it's planted, can spread and that dust can be acutely

655
00:40:29,039 --> 00:40:33,039
toxic to bees. And so when there was a lot

656
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,159
during calling the conningclapse disorder kind of when it was

657
00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:40,280
in the news, ne nix became a prime suspect for

658
00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:43,280
you know, what was killing the bees. And there's been

659
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,880
a lot of sort of you know, public outcry about

660
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,000
the use of neuniketenoids. And I would talk to bee

661
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,159
hebers and there were kind of two factions and a

662
00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:56,400
smaller faction was very anti neonis and supported these this

663
00:40:56,559 --> 00:40:59,320
these kind of protests, but a lot of them, I'd

664
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,239
say maybe it these two thirds were actually very afraid

665
00:41:02,519 --> 00:41:06,400
of the public's pushback against neonis. And the reason was

666
00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:10,519
because they were systemic pesticides. They were not acutely toxic,

667
00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:14,280
meaning they don't kill on contact, and beekeepers felt like

668
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,480
they could kind of help their bees survive, you know,

669
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,000
as some kind of exposure from neonix. But if neo

670
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:26,880
nis were banned, then as you were kind of talking about, farmers,

671
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,280
will you know, then use their older pesticides that they

672
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,239
know work, that are more acutely toxic. And so what

673
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,960
worries me is when we do these like let's just

674
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:42,000
ban neonis, if you're not talking to farmers about what

675
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:44,920
tools they're going to use next and helping them use

676
00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:49,199
non toxic or less toxic tools than neonis, then they're

677
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,719
just going to go back to the agrochemicals that they know,

678
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,599
which are more often more toxic, and then we're going

679
00:41:56,679 --> 00:41:59,639
to have, you know, kind of more toxic exposures in

680
00:41:59,679 --> 00:42:03,920
the felt. And so when we are thinking about technologies

681
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,519
again and just coming back to how much we have

682
00:42:06,599 --> 00:42:10,599
to implement tools in partnership with farmers and with beekeepers,

683
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,760
because you know, we can have these unintended consequences of

684
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,280
you remove one tool and you're going to go back

685
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,719
to an actually more dangerous tool instead. And so when

686
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,559
we remove a pesticide, and we have to really understand

687
00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:27,880
what is gonna what the next steps those farmers are

688
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,719
going to take and make sure that they have tools

689
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,119
that are ecologically beneficial, if you know, if that's the

690
00:42:33,199 --> 00:42:35,880
direction we're trying to head in, rather than just taking

691
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,400
a tool away because you know it's politically kind of useful,

692
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:43,320
or it's the sort of you know, common enemy right

693
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,760
now that you know that we're facing. So and I'm

694
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,039
not here to say, I mean, theodics are problematic, but

695
00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:50,639
if we're going to ban them, we really have to

696
00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:53,480
have other tools for farmers to use because they are

697
00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:55,800
managing food and they're trying to save their crops and

698
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,599
they are struggling and they need tools to be able

699
00:42:58,639 --> 00:42:59,639
to keep their crops alive.

700
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: How much do you think that the sort of citizenry

701
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,920
right because we're the ones voting on these things. We're

702
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,920
the ones often who are are voting with our dollars too,

703
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,239
purchasing things because of the way that they are labeled

704
00:43:16,559 --> 00:43:20,719
or you know, downstream, we have a lot of power

705
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:25,239
to affect policy that ultimately blows back on areas that

706
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,480
we may be not as well informed about. And so

707
00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:31,800
how much do you think that sort of the even

708
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,800
the conversation about bees comes down to a pull at

709
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,559
your heart strings? You know. I've talked to other kind

710
00:43:39,559 --> 00:43:44,360
of environmentalists and activists and ecologists about the fact that, like,

711
00:43:44,519 --> 00:43:46,280
you know, there's a lot of money out there for elephants,

712
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,039
but there's not so much money for I don't know,

713
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,559
fill in the blank with like a scaly creature or

714
00:43:51,559 --> 00:43:54,119
something without a you know, forur and acute face. And

715
00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:56,239
I think one of the things that I often we

716
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,199
didn't even say it at the beginning here, but I

717
00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:01,000
think that often people forget is that the bees that

718
00:44:01,079 --> 00:44:06,800
were often talking about are domestic bees, right, Like, these

719
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,679
are bees that are raised by keepers that are not

720
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,599
just like native bees that are flying around. Yes, like

721
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,119
we should make that distinction, right, because there are a

722
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:18,400
lot of native bees as well.

723
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we have in the US about I

724
00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:25,239
think it's about four thousand native bee species, and honey

725
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,639
bees were imported. They were brought over here by the

726
00:44:28,679 --> 00:44:32,320
colonists in think of sixteen twenty two to Virginia as

727
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,159
the first recorded shipment, and then as colonists spread across

728
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:39,079
the United States, we took bees with us and we

729
00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:41,840
brought we brought them here for honey and wax, and

730
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,679
also to pollinate crops like apples and alfalfa, which we

731
00:44:47,599 --> 00:44:52,159
grew for and grow for cattle. And bees love pollinating alfalfa.

732
00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:58,480
But they are absolutely an imported, you know, non native species.

733
00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:02,719
And and the truth is the vast majority of our

734
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:08,199
honeybees are managed livestock. I mean, they're relegated as livestock.

735
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:11,400
Now you talk to a beekeeper, you go get in

736
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,360
a colony with them, and a lot of them just

737
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:16,559
love their bees and they talk to them and they're

738
00:45:16,639 --> 00:45:18,800
very sweet with them. And now when they're in a colony,

739
00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:21,159
some of them are just like in and out, you know,

740
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,480
gotta check really quick, Okay, close the hive, next five,

741
00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:29,239
you know. And the management practices differ, but they are,

742
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,320
you know, they are not a native species. And a

743
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,639
lot of our attension has gone to honeybees, and there

744
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,159
has been more funding and research done on honeybees, and

745
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,440
native bees have suffered because it's harder to track their populations.

746
00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:49,480
It's also harder to track their economic benefit, which isn't

747
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:52,760
because there isn't one. They are amazing pollinators and it's

748
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,199
often they are better pollinators than honeybees with certain crops,

749
00:45:56,519 --> 00:45:58,599
but it's just harder to track it, and so we

750
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:01,159
don't have as much of a sense their monetary value,

751
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,000
and so it's harder to kind of get grants and

752
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:08,599
to you know, put sort of government agency support behind

753
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,000
native bees. It's all there, it's just not quite as

754
00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:15,400
robust as for honeybees. And I do think it's important

755
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:18,840
to really focus on how we need to support all bees,

756
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,159
not just managed bees, and that we need to understand

757
00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:25,199
that they are industrial industrially managed and that is causing

758
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,519
vulnerability for honeybees and other bees as well.

759
00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:33,119
Speaker 1: When we think about these industrially managed bees, these honey

760
00:46:33,159 --> 00:46:37,079
bees that we're discussing, and we you know, you mentioned

761
00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:40,239
that it's much harder to kind of track and to

762
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,960
really be able to look at the numbers with regards

763
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,239
to native bees. Are we mostly looking at managed bees

764
00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:52,320
as a source of the downstream product like wax or

765
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:58,480
honey or are we also usually calculating in their benefit

766
00:46:58,639 --> 00:47:02,920
as pollinators sort of what is their job from a

767
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:06,400
I guess accounting, I hate putting it that way, but

768
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,239
an accounting perspective, sure.

769
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: I think what's been interesting is how that's changed. And

770
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,639
so in my first chapter I talked about this transition.

771
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,199
My first and second chapter about this transition from beekeepers

772
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,920
as honey producers, which was their primary role honey and

773
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:26,920
also wax through the two World Wars. A lot of

774
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,360
people don't know that beekeepers played a massive role in

775
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,679
the World Wars because sugar routes were cut off by

776
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,320
German U boat attacks and so there was this scarcity

777
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,239
of sugar available in the US, but especially in Europe,

778
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,360
and so honey beekeepers. There was this like national call

779
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,119
to the beekeeping community and that like veterans were trying

780
00:47:48,159 --> 00:47:52,119
to be beekeepers. Like the honey industry really expanded during

781
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:57,119
the Wars, and beekeepers were like honey producers. But after

782
00:47:57,159 --> 00:48:01,719
the war ended, we had cheap sugars back on the market,

783
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,239
including you know, just straight sugar, but then also some

784
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,719
of our artificial sweeteners became popular, like in the fifties,

785
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,280
and so with that competition, demand for honey went down.

786
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,320
And be Heavers had to start looking for alternative income sources.

787
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,920
And around that same time, you know, industrial agriculture, this

788
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,360
this model was spreading throughout the United States because we

789
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,880
were repurposing agrochemicals from the war, like nitrogen into fertilizer

790
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,760
and sorry, ammonia into fertilizer nitrogen. You know, we were

791
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,360
we were using these chemicals for pesticides and fertilizer basically.

792
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,960
And so what happened then was we had, you know,

793
00:48:43,199 --> 00:48:47,519
vast farm operations started to develop, and there weren't native

794
00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:53,079
bees around to pollinate, and so what over time especially

795
00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:55,760
and then and then I guess i'd say with the

796
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,400
almond industry, which really started expanding in the nineties in

797
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,159
a massive and started drawing beekeepers from all over the country.

798
00:49:03,199 --> 00:49:08,000
In the nineties and two thousands, beekeepers really started to

799
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,480
shift how they managed their bees, and they transitioned from

800
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:16,119
being primarily honey producers to now most of them have

801
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,159
like a fifty to fifty or forty sixty model, where

802
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:22,639
they're pollinating is like fifty percent of their income or

803
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,280
sixty percent of their income, and honey is like fifty

804
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,280
to forty percent of their income, and they manage bees

805
00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:32,039
differently for pollination, and that is kind of the primary

806
00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:35,159
way they're managing them is for pollination, and then honey

807
00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:39,000
is this kind of secondary income source. And so that

808
00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:44,079
shift in how at least I argue that that shift

809
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,000
is primarily is a big reason why bees are more

810
00:49:48,079 --> 00:49:52,440
vulnerable because they're being exposed to agricultural landscapes more than

811
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,360
they were before. They're being more intensively managed because when

812
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,199
you're pollinating almonds, the more robust, the more colonies you have,

813
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,400
the more money you make. And so you want to

814
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,880
have as many bees as possible, and so you push

815
00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:07,400
your colonies hard so that they are ready to go

816
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,280
in February, and they're not typically ready to go in February.

817
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,800
They're typically ready to pollinate in mass in April. So

818
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,039
you have to feed them supplements and you have to

819
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,440
you know, really boost their numbers. And this this shift

820
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:25,480
really has transformed the beekeeping industry and the honey bee

821
00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:28,760
and we also are breeding bees that are more productive,

822
00:50:29,079 --> 00:50:32,360
but they are also more susceptible to Varroa mites as well,

823
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,559
and so that's that's kind of the trade off that

824
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,440
we're getting. And so this real, this real push and

825
00:50:39,519 --> 00:50:44,800
shift towards a pollination model over a honey model. You know,

826
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,400
it's it's it's definitely transformed are bees. And the last

827
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,760
thing I would add too, is when you're making honey,

828
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,639
you're trying to find pasture that has very little agrichemicals.

829
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,760
So if your whole operation is mostly around honey production

830
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,119
and maybe you pollinate one crop, then your bees are

831
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:04,800
mostly being exposed to pest aside free forage. But when

832
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,440
you're having more of a pollinator, then you get more

833
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,440
of that agrochemical exposure and your truck getting trucked around

834
00:51:10,519 --> 00:51:13,960
a lot more. And so those all these little shifts,

835
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,599
you know, have have transformed our bees and the bekeeping

836
00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:19,920
industry as well. You know.

837
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: So you mentioned kind of in passing at one point

838
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:27,079
that obviously your role or your intentionality in writing this

839
00:51:27,119 --> 00:51:30,159
book and doing your research is not to be prescriptive.

840
00:51:30,559 --> 00:51:31,599
Speaker 2: I'm curious how do.

841
00:51:31,559 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: You manage that as somebody who is talking to so

842
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,840
many different people, reading so many different sources of information,

843
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,440
helping we the reader of the book sort of understand

844
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,280
the landscape of the problem. Who all of the different

845
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,960
you know, interested parties are. How how do you kind

846
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,079
of square that circle? And have that balance of not

847
00:51:55,119 --> 00:51:57,079
saying and then here's what we should be doing.

848
00:51:58,159 --> 00:52:05,679
Speaker 2: I mean it's uh, especially uh when you're in science

849
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:10,159
communication and you know, you're writing op eds and it's like,

850
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,360
what should we do? How do we save the bees? Like,

851
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,639
you know, have your last paragraph focus on that, you know?

852
00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: Uh?

853
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,679
Speaker 2: And I think that what I try and do and

854
00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:20,840
what I what I how I kind of resolve that

855
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,840
tension for myself was my last three chapters. I they're

856
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,880
my last three chapters focus on solutions to help bees.

857
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,960
And there were like a million solutions. I wanted to

858
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,679
focus on a lot of them coming from within the industry,

859
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,000
but I was worried they wouldn't be super interesting to

860
00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:40,920
people or be too technical, like new ways to grow

861
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,800
bee queens, you know, or to breed bee queens, I

862
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,239
should say, And so I really wanted to make the

863
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,679
last few chapters kind of like what are some things

864
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,400
you could do and and what And to me, one

865
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,559
of the most important things the average reader can do

866
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,800
is to plant forage. And so I I think that's

867
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,920
one thing I am kind of like, yeah, like if

868
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,719
we want to say bees we need more forage, I

869
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:06,719
mean that is just a scientific fact, we do not

870
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,199
have enough forage bees are dying, because that is one

871
00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:11,280
of the biggest stressers is that we don't have enough

872
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:14,639
friendly flowers. That's what forage is. When I'm saying that

873
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,960
foods that produce you know, nectar and honey for bees,

874
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,480
and we just don't have enough of it. And so

875
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,320
and I also think the science indicates that pesticides are

876
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:30,000
problematic for bees, and so limiting pesticides is good for bees.

877
00:53:30,199 --> 00:53:33,039
So I really try and lean on the science, so

878
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:36,440
I'm not necessarily prescribing what we should do. And it's

879
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,000
also kind of like, if we want to protect bees,

880
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:42,239
you know, here are the here are the solutions that

881
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,800
seem to be working or have you know, are really helping.

882
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,320
So my main goal in the book was to really

883
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,199
highlight stories and to you know, shine a light on

884
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,519
just really interesting solutions. And so I think the way

885
00:53:56,559 --> 00:54:00,360
I avoided being prescriptive was really telling people's stories, letting

886
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,599
or letting other people kind of tell their stories, quoting

887
00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:04,880
them a lot, telling them, telling what was their their

888
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,639
process of trying to you know, get on this path

889
00:54:07,679 --> 00:54:11,079
of helping bees. And but I do kind of have

890
00:54:11,119 --> 00:54:13,559
a prescriptiveness at the end I mean, I do say,

891
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:19,280
like I draw on Michael Pollen's eat food and not

892
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,760
too much mostly plants, which I think is from indefensive food.

893
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,760
And I was like, you know, okay, if I came

894
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,840
up with something similar, what would it be. And and

895
00:54:29,159 --> 00:54:32,800
it was, you know, a plant flowers, limit pesticides, and

896
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,400
share the land. Have more of a of a sharing

897
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,679
the land ethic than owning the land and doing whatever

898
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:42,320
we want with it ethic. But at the end of

899
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,840
the day, you know, my job here is to report

900
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,440
on science. It's to elevate the voices you know that

901
00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:50,840
came up in my research and and then let people

902
00:54:51,199 --> 00:54:54,519
you know, follow how they are moved, you know, by

903
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,079
by the information, by the stories, you know, try to

904
00:54:57,119 --> 00:55:00,599
find a path to solution that makes sense for them,

905
00:55:00,639 --> 00:55:04,280
that inspires them. And at the end of the day,

906
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,000
I sort of feel like my role is just to

907
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,760
share what I've learned and you know, and then the

908
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,199
reader can take do with that what they will. That's

909
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:13,480
that's their responsibility.

910
00:55:14,199 --> 00:55:17,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you do you plan to continue down

911
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,840
that path? Especially regarding this topic, have you found that

912
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:26,119
your interest has been shifting or branching out or widening

913
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:29,679
or narrowing over time as you continue to dig deep

914
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:31,119
and write about these issues.

915
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:36,199
Speaker 2: It's a great Yeah. It's funny because after at some

916
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,719
point while writing this book, I was like, I am done.

917
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,880
I'm so tired of getting BE paraphernalia, you know, like

918
00:55:43,039 --> 00:55:47,679
I was getting so sick abees. But it kind of

919
00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:52,280
comes back to those beekeepers and I, like I said,

920
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,119
I'm friends with many of them now, I mean I've

921
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:56,480
been in touch with many of them for you know,

922
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:02,039
twelve thirteen years, and and so I am still working

923
00:56:02,079 --> 00:56:04,960
on BE stuff. I don't want to get into too

924
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,239
much detail, but my next project, we'll look at honey.

925
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,840
Honey is their most adulterated or considered the third most

926
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,039
adulterated food in the world. And a lot of what

927
00:56:15,159 --> 00:56:18,800
happens is honey is coming from outside the United States

928
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:23,320
and it is adulterated. I've had conversations in India with

929
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,440
Indian bee heapers, and there's just kind of common knowledge

930
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,320
that a lot of the honey coming from abroad is

931
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,199
like maybe one part honey, four parts something else, some

932
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,719
other kind of syrup. And so yeah, so my hope

933
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,599
is too and then that is just really cheapening the

934
00:56:41,639 --> 00:56:45,360
honey market and making it so difficult for bee heapers

935
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,519
to maintain their operations because honey is just so cheap

936
00:56:48,679 --> 00:56:52,239
and they can't compete with I think the honey is

937
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,760
sometimes twice as much or sorry, twice is cheap as

938
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,760
what it costs to produce, right, and so they are

939
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:02,400
really struggling. And I didn't get as much into the

940
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,800
honey market when I was writing this book because I

941
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,400
kind of was seeing I'm like, oh, this needs to

942
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,199
be its own whole thing, and so I do talk

943
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,360
about it a bit in the first couple of chapters,

944
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,840
but but I'm hoping to dive into it more deeply,

945
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,159
and they're kind of clamoring, like, come on, let's talk

946
00:57:16,199 --> 00:57:20,119
about this. Yeah, yeah, So that's that's probably gonna be.

947
00:57:20,159 --> 00:57:23,320
The next project is something about the honey market and

948
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,119
how how this global honey market really affects beekeepers and

949
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:30,280
effects all of us because we don't really know what

950
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:31,360
we're getting in that jar.

951
00:57:32,239 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: That is fascinating, and I am a honey fanatic. I

952
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:42,000
would say that it is my most commonly purchased I say,

953
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,519
honey and bar soap. Those are the two things I

954
00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:47,519
always buy when I travel if no matter where I

955
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:50,559
am on the globe. If I can buy local honey

956
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:53,559
and local like a local bar of soap, I always.

957
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:54,199
Speaker 2: Bring them home with me.

958
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 1: And then whenever I finally get to crack open that

959
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:01,519
jar or you know, replace the bars open my in

960
00:58:01,599 --> 00:58:04,079
my shower, I get to kind of be transported back

961
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to where I was and remember my trip. And I

962
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,119
like to buy consumables, but I definitely I put honey

963
00:58:09,159 --> 00:58:11,280
in my tea. I eat honey with everything I love.

964
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,559
Speaker 2: I love it. I have to tell you I had

965
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the coolest experience on that note when I was in India.

966
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:21,239
My husband's Indian, and so we go. We've been going, like,

967
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,880
you know, the past couple of Christmases, and so this

968
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,840
last winter we were there and I learned about this

969
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:33,199
amazing organization that works with small beekeepers and I'm talking

970
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,159
like farmers that make under two dollars a day, and

971
00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:43,800
they train this nonprofit trains farmers how to grow how

972
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,320
to farm bees basically, and so how to keep bees.

973
00:58:47,159 --> 00:58:51,239
But what's cool is that they are keeping native bees,

974
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:54,639
which is appis. So we have Appis Malivera bees, which

975
00:58:54,679 --> 00:58:57,880
is the European honey bee commonly known or called that

976
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,000
and they have Appis serana, which is commonly called the

977
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,079
Asian honey bee because it's primarily in Asia and it

978
00:59:04,079 --> 00:59:07,159
can handle a different climate than the European bees can.

979
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:12,239
And so anyway, I got to try honey from Appiserana

980
00:59:12,239 --> 00:59:16,559
bees and Stingless bees, another native bee in India, and

981
00:59:16,639 --> 00:59:20,159
it was just phenomenal, Like it was so cool because

982
00:59:20,159 --> 00:59:22,239
you cannot get that honey here in the US or

983
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:26,360
Europe because for reasons I'll go into in the next book.

984
00:59:27,639 --> 00:59:30,199
But it was just so incredible to taste honey from

985
00:59:30,199 --> 00:59:34,599
a different honey producing bee species that was really special.

986
00:59:34,599 --> 00:59:36,400
And I'm like you, I often get honey when I

987
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,199
travel and bring it back with me, and it really

988
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,760
is incredible to just when you can get especially like

989
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,199
as close to a single variety as possible, varietal as possible,

990
00:59:46,239 --> 00:59:50,920
like meade from cherries or sunflower, you can really get

991
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,719
to know the taste of a certain of the nectar,

992
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:55,960
you know, and the honey produce from that crop, and

993
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,719
it really connects you to the landscape in a way

994
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,360
that is really so I love trying honey. I always

995
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,480
encourage people to like buy from local beekeepers and you know,

996
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:10,880
try to try different varietals of honey because it's it

997
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,559
really tastes different depending on which plant it's coming from,

998
01:00:13,559 --> 01:00:17,000
and it's cool to get to know that I love it.

999
01:00:17,039 --> 01:00:19,159
Speaker 1: I feel like I've learned so much, and there's obviously

1000
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,599
so so, so much more in the book to learn everybody.

1001
01:00:22,639 --> 01:00:25,639
The book is Bitter Honey, Big Eggs, Threat to Bees

1002
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,159
and the Fight to Save Them by doctor Jenny Durant. Jenny,

1003
01:00:29,199 --> 01:00:31,000
thank you so much for being here with us today.

1004
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 2: It's such a pleasure, such a fun conversation.

1005
01:00:33,559 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me absolutely and everybody listening. Thank you

1006
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,719
for coming back week after week. I'm really looking forward

1007
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,159
to the next time we all get together to talk.

1008
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:43,719
Nerdy