Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w b Z
Speaker 1: Constance video.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Kyle was we move into the
Speaker 2: nine o'clock hour. I'm delighted to well a guess that
Speaker 2: I had kind of lost touch with. He was a
Speaker 2: former is a former state representative at the State House.
Speaker 2: I knew him in that capacity. He now works as
Speaker 2: a professor of a practice in the area of healthcare
Speaker 2: at the chan Harvard School of Public Health, Professor John McDonough.
Speaker 2: I don't want to say what I want to say
Speaker 2: representative of professor. We'll keep it at professor fan now,
Speaker 2: But John, how are you welcome back?
Speaker 3: Welcome back. It's great to renew an old acquaintances.
Speaker 4: Great to be with you, Dan, and please just call
Speaker 4: me John.
Speaker 2: Okay, we can leave it at that. We want to
Speaker 2: talk about the Stewart health crisis here in Massachusetts, and
Speaker 2: as I mentioned last night, we're going to stay with
Speaker 2: this story because I think it's an incredibly important story.
Speaker 2: Let me start off with the general question and then
Speaker 2: we'll get to a more specific question. Is this a
Speaker 2: crisis that is unprecedented or is this happening with other
Speaker 2: health groups in other parts of the country.
Speaker 4: Well, so, there have been closings of hospitals and hospital
Speaker 4: chains all over the country for profit a nonprofit, and
Speaker 4: some of them have involved so called private equity financing,
Speaker 4: and some of them just run out of gas and
Speaker 4: don't have the support and the resources to survive. So
Speaker 4: we've been seeing a shrinkage of hospitals going back at
Speaker 4: least fifty years or even more, as as medicine gets
Speaker 4: more complicated and specialized, and as as smaller and smaller
Speaker 4: facilities find it harder to keep up to and to
Speaker 4: maintain themselves financially and sufficient workers and otherwise.
Speaker 5: This is special because of the uniqueness of the story.
Speaker 4: A former Calcolic hospital chain that was highly respected and
Speaker 4: loved by its patient population and its workers sold in
Speaker 4: twenty ten to a private equity chain out of Wall
Speaker 4: Street in New York. The private equity.
Speaker 5: Firm is known as Cerberus cer b E r U s.
Speaker 4: Cerberus is actually a Greek myth that is a three
Speaker 4: headed dog that is supposed to be guarding the gates
Speaker 4: of hell.
Speaker 2: Well, there's we could carry that metaphor a little bit.
Speaker 2: By the way. The former chain carriedis Christie was the
Speaker 2: Catholic hospital chain and this This was caused, probably ironically
Speaker 2: in some part, maybe a big part, maybe a small part,
Speaker 2: but at least in some part by the the priest
Speaker 2: pedophile priest crisis that broke around the turn of the
Speaker 2: twenty first century here, you know, and that sort of
Speaker 2: created a need for the Catholic Church to find uh finances,
Speaker 2: money to to pay victims. Am I misreading that?
Speaker 4: I'd say that was that was a substantial part of it.
Speaker 4: That we we had the new archbishop and then Cardinals
Speaker 4: Sean O'Malley come in really wanting to turn things around
Speaker 4: and find in the archdiocese, in the Catholic Church infrastructure,
Speaker 4: and finding that the decisions that were forced on him
Speaker 4: in terms of being the owner of sophisticated chain of
Speaker 4: acute care hospitals and other facilities was.
Speaker 5: Quite a distraction.
Speaker 4: Also, in addition to the scandal which had done real
Speaker 4: damage to the reputation of the archdiocese, there was also
Speaker 4: an underfunding of pensions in the archdiocese, both in the
Speaker 4: carry tasks Christie system itself and beyond, and so the
Speaker 4: archdiocese had a big problem financially in terms of needing
Speaker 4: to invest and find the money to make up for
Speaker 4: the short payments to its pension front. Over a good
Speaker 4: number of years, there were some major issues both in
Speaker 4: terms of the reputational scandal and the payments to victims,
Speaker 4: but also the underfunding of the pension system and other
Speaker 4: related issues that really came together by two thousand and five, six,
Speaker 4: seven and eight for the archdiocese and Cardinal O'Malley to say, listen,
Speaker 4: we've got to extricate ourselves from this. This is a
Speaker 4: big distraction and we're really not confident to be able
Speaker 4: to address all the pieces, and so looking for a solution.
Speaker 4: And so one of their first challenges in two thousand
Speaker 4: and eight was looking for a new president of the
Speaker 4: system and there was a rising star surgeon at the
Speaker 4: Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center by the name of doctor
Speaker 4: Ralph Delatori, who had created a super practice of cardiac
Speaker 4: surgery at Beth Israel Deaconess, was a star started his
Speaker 4: own center at Beth Israel, and he was interested in
Speaker 4: looking for leadership opportunities in the health sector and applied
Speaker 4: for and got the job in two thousand and eight
Speaker 4: as the CEO and President of the Carrie cass Christie
Speaker 4: Hospital System and took on that and a lot of
Speaker 4: people were excited and said, this is a real burst
Speaker 4: of electricity and energy in terms of reviving the system.
Speaker 4: And then things started to turn.
Speaker 3: Well they were.
Speaker 2: We're going to start to talk about that turn, and
Speaker 2: when we get back, we can focus on a now
Speaker 2: very controversial ralph.
Speaker 3: Is it pronounced dilatory? Is that the correct tranciation?
Speaker 4: Ralph delatory deleatory?
Speaker 2: Okay, who I guess spent part of the Olympics on
Speaker 2: his yacht and part of his Olympics at Versailles, watching
Speaker 2: some of the drissage equine equestrian competition, which we'll talk about,
Speaker 2: And I also just want to talk about invite folks
Speaker 2: if they'd like to join the conversation.
Speaker 3: I think John.
Speaker 2: I don't want to say that he knows this better
Speaker 2: than anyone, but I think there are a few people
Speaker 2: who would know it better than John McDonough, and I'm
Speaker 2: delighted that he's been able to join us tonight. So
Speaker 2: I will give the number just quickly six one seven, two, five,
Speaker 2: four ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one
Speaker 2: ten thirty. John has been kind of indicate they'll be
Speaker 2: happy to take phone calls and try to answer questions.
Speaker 2: I know a lot of you have questions. That's why
Speaker 2: I'm doing this. I feel it's important for our audience.
Speaker 2: We talked about it for an hour and a half
Speaker 2: last night, but John is so much better versed in
Speaker 2: this than I am. I am indubted to him for
Speaker 2: being available tonight to answer some of my questions in
Speaker 2: your questions.
Speaker 3: My name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside. We will
Speaker 3: be right back after these messages.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: Joining us is Professor John McDonald, former state representative from
Speaker 2: the Boston area. He has been with the chan Harvard
Speaker 2: School of Public Health since twenty eleven, so he has
Speaker 2: been observing this process before we go to phone calls.
Speaker 2: Just a couple of things. We talked today a little
Speaker 2: bit about what has been going on. And you basically
Speaker 2: feel that the doctor Delatory is a villain in this story.
Speaker 2: Not trying to put words in your mouth, but I
Speaker 2: think you made a comparison today. If you want to
Speaker 2: share that with the audience or tell me, tell me
Speaker 2: how how you feel about his role as honestly as
Speaker 2: you cannot appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Well, So, doctor Delatory is the person who made the
Speaker 4: relationship to take the Carrycoss Christie chain in twenty ten
Speaker 4: and turn it into Steward Health owned by the Serberus
Speaker 4: private equity firm, and turning it into a for profit
Speaker 4: hospital system, which really was a financial toy for the
Speaker 4: serverist folks from New York.
Speaker 5: Private equity is a.
Speaker 4: Controversial financing vehicle in the United States and around the world,
Speaker 4: especially in the United States, and it's especially dangerous when
Speaker 4: it gets involved in healthcare and medical care because the
Speaker 4: heart and soul of medicine is that the patient comes first,
Speaker 4: that it's about the patient relationship and their needs. And
Speaker 4: the heart and soul of private equity is that profits
Speaker 4: are first for the central shareholders, and everything else comes second, third, fourth,
Speaker 4: or doesn't even make the list. And so there is
Speaker 4: a fundamental contradiction here in terms of the values of
Speaker 4: what private equity is and what most of us see
Speaker 4: as essential about our health and medical care system. And
Speaker 4: so Ralph by putting it in the hands of a
Speaker 4: private equity firm, and then after the Attorney General stopped
Speaker 4: watching in twenty fifteen, basically took all of the real
Speaker 4: estate in that the former car Carrie Tusk Christie Chain
Speaker 4: held the buildings the land for all of the eight
Speaker 4: hospitals and basically sold all of the real estate to
Speaker 4: another financial firm, kind of firm called a retri t
Speaker 4: of state investment trust. And they basically pay the Cerberus
Speaker 4: folks a large amount of money in exchange for getting
Speaker 4: all their property. And now they're the landlord. And so
Speaker 4: the folks at Saint Elizabeth's, the folks at Good Samaritan
Speaker 4: and Brockton no longer own the building and land on
Speaker 4: which their facility resides and have to actually pay exorbitant
Speaker 4: rental payments way way way into the future that take
Speaker 4: away from the money. And meanwhile, most of the proceeds
Speaker 4: from the sale of the land and property go to
Speaker 4: the reach the real estate investment trust. And this is
Speaker 4: a formula, This is a process which basically kind of
Speaker 4: bled this system dry and precipitated what is now the
Speaker 4: bankruptcy and as we speak the dissolution of this shame.
Speaker 4: We hope it may lead to a better place, but
Speaker 4: we have no guarantee of that at all, because we
Speaker 4: still have these Wall Street firms that are calling all
Speaker 4: the shots.
Speaker 2: Well, we have two hospitals which we know are going
Speaker 2: to close, including Corning Hospital, which is a bedrock of
Speaker 2: the Dorchester community.
Speaker 3: And there's another hospital in Heir which.
Speaker 5: Is about Nashoba Valley, closed.
Speaker 3: By the end of the month.
Speaker 2: And then there's another five or six hospitals which are
Speaker 2: in jeopardy of closing. I know that there was a
Speaker 2: deal today of a sale of there I guess the doctors.
Speaker 2: What's called stewardship five thousand employed and affiliated physicians in
Speaker 2: Massachusetts and nine other states.
Speaker 3: This is a huge deal. That deal was.
Speaker 2: Two hundred and forty five million dollars. I don't know
Speaker 2: how they sell doctors, but that's apparently we're with the
Speaker 2: regulators here in Massachusetts. When all of this hijinks was
Speaker 2: going on, I mean, someone should have at some point
Speaker 2: been saying, slow this process down.
Speaker 3: What are we getting into? Who's involved here? Where were there?
Speaker 6: So the.
Speaker 4: Carrie TuS Christy chain was sold to Cerberus to become
Speaker 4: steward in twenty ten, and it had to be approved
Speaker 4: by the Attorney General. Then Martha Cokeley was the Attorney
Speaker 4: General at the time, and when she approved it, because
Speaker 4: the archdiocese was bleeding and needed the revenue.
Speaker 5: To come from the sale and they wanted out of it.
Speaker 5: And there were.
Speaker 4: Literally no other institutions in Greater Boston or Massachusetts that
Speaker 4: came forward and said, yeah, we would like to take
Speaker 4: over ownership and responsibility of this. So Cerberus was kind
Speaker 4: of the only player in town that was willing to
Speaker 4: come forward, and so we have a lot of public process,
Speaker 4: a lot of public hearings. Martha Cokeley allowed the sale
Speaker 4: to go forward and it became Steward under Cerberus. That
Speaker 4: and that arrangement then had five years of close financial
Speaker 4: monitoring by the Attorney General's office. One of my former
Speaker 4: colleagues at the Harvard School of Public Health, Professor Nancy Kane,
Speaker 4: was the actual financial monitor and she paid very close
Speaker 4: attention and gave a lot of oversight and informed the
Speaker 4: Attorney General of everything going on for five years. But
Speaker 4: the deal was only oversight for five years, and then
Speaker 4: once the oversight ended in twenty fifteen, then Stewart and
Speaker 4: Cerberus were free to go their own way, and that's
Speaker 4: when they sold the real estate out from under the
Speaker 4: institutions and started the process of just Senator Elizabeth Warrenkat
Speaker 4: and Senator Marky call it the looting of this This
Speaker 4: former hospital chain and so so, so that's that's one
Speaker 4: piece and you can look at it stage by stage
Speaker 4: and see the process.
Speaker 5: But it was after the five.
Speaker 4: Years of oversight things really started to go south in
Speaker 4: terms of what was going on in that system.
Speaker 2: So once the five years of oversight ended, at that
Speaker 2: point some of us was able to do whatever they want.
Speaker 2: There was there was no regulation and whatsoever, no oversight.
Speaker 4: There actually was. We do have we do have a
Speaker 4: healthcare financial Oversight group called it's called CHIA CHIA, which
Speaker 4: is a Center for Health Information and as it's a
Speaker 4: wonderful agency and every acute care hospital and like Stewart,
Speaker 4: has to provide extensive financial information every single year. And
Speaker 4: for the first five years they provided that information and
Speaker 4: once they were out from under the thumb of the
Speaker 4: Attorney General and were free, they stopped providing any information.
Speaker 4: And SIA actually took Stewart to court and has been
Speaker 4: unable to get resolution in terms of that action. So
Speaker 4: it's been about eight to nine years now where they
Speaker 4: have done no financial reporting to the state as they
Speaker 4: are legally required to do, and so there are definitely
Speaker 4: issues the are in terms of what went wrong that
Speaker 4: they could get away with this, and the legislature right
Speaker 4: now is trying to toughen that loss so that we'll
Speaker 4: never see a situation like that again.
Speaker 2: That should have been a huge red flag. I guess
Speaker 2: they refused to file financial reports with Massachusetts regulators for
Speaker 2: years before moving the headquarters from Boston to Dallas in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. Try not thriling your tax returns with the
Speaker 2: irs and see how long you can get away with that,
Speaker 2: real quick, if I could, how much did seahbus pay
Speaker 2: for this whole shooting match back in twenty ten?
Speaker 3: Approximately?
Speaker 4: If you know, I'm forgetting the number I can that
Speaker 4: I can find out and get it back to you
Speaker 4: who have no.
Speaker 5: Problem, no public I don't remember. So then after.
Speaker 2: Five years twenty fifteen, at that point, that from twenty
Speaker 2: ten to twenty fifteen covers the governorships of Governor Deval
Speaker 2: Patrick into the first term of.
Speaker 3: The Baker administration.
Speaker 2: And did the Baker administration drop the ball in not
Speaker 2: providing whatever oversight was necessary after this five year period expired.
Speaker 2: It just seems to me that this company, all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, it was the inmates running the asylum. After
Speaker 2: the five years were up, they behaved themselves for five years,
Speaker 2: and after five years they thumb their those that the
Speaker 2: State of Massachusetts regulators.
Speaker 4: I mean, just I'll tell you so. In in twenty ten,
Speaker 4: a Cerberus paid eight hundred and ninety five million dollars
Speaker 4: to buy the carry Task System.
Speaker 2: Okay, what is its value today? If any I know
Speaker 2: it's invasorancy proceeedings, but.
Speaker 5: It has its value today.
Speaker 4: I haven't seen any really good. So nobody's looking at
Speaker 4: the value of the whole chain right now because it's
Speaker 4: being broken up piece by piece. And some places like
Speaker 4: you have Norton Hospital that had Norwood Hospital that has
Speaker 4: been closed.
Speaker 3: For that was hit that was hit with a flood.
Speaker 2: Okay, so so so I'll give them a break on
Speaker 2: that right that was hit by a flood. But you
Speaker 2: have these other hospitals. I don't understand how hospitals go
Speaker 2: out of business, to be really honest with you, it
Speaker 2: seems to me whenever I've known anyone going to a hospital,
Speaker 2: you get you get charged for everything down to an aspirin,
Speaker 2: and you know, which is understandable, but.
Speaker 3: Boy, what a what a mess. John.
Speaker 2: Let's take a break. I want to open up the
Speaker 2: phone lines. Give folks there's a couple of folks waiting.
Speaker 2: If not, we'll open up phone calls. You've explained this
Speaker 2: extraordinarily well. Obviously, this is a lack of oversight and nobody,
Speaker 2: nobody identified this problem. It's like I just came back
Speaker 2: from Pompeii in Italy. It's it's almost as if you're
Speaker 2: next to Mount Vesuvius and you say, you know, I
Speaker 2: got a bad feeling here that this thing might erupt.
Speaker 2: This is our own little monk Vesuvius without the lava
Speaker 2: here in Massachusetts, because it's going to affect a lot
Speaker 2: of people adversely. Six one seven two thirty six one
Speaker 2: seven nine thirty. My guest is Professor John McDonough. He
Speaker 2: is a professor of the Practice of healthcare at the
Speaker 2: Harvard chan School of Public Health. He knows this situation
Speaker 2: very well. He's explained it extraordinarily well. Uh, and we'll
Speaker 2: take some more questions. I have plenty of questions, but
Speaker 2: I want to open it up for you to get
Speaker 2: an opportunity to spark to speak with Professor McDonough. Not
Speaker 2: only where we go from here, how did we get here?
Speaker 2: And is there any resolution that might that just might
Speaker 2: provide a good solution or a livable solution here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: It looks to me like this is a train work,
Speaker 2: a train wreck in slow motion. Hopefully John McDonough will
Speaker 2: be able to convince me that that characterization is incorrect
Speaker 2: once we get back right after the news at the
Speaker 2: bottom of the hour.
Speaker 3: My name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside.
Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: My guest is doctor John McDonough was with the Cham
Speaker 2: School of Public Health at Harvard University. Doctor McDonough, I
Speaker 2: want to go to phone calls. We've had people holding
Speaker 2: on here, so I've got a whole bunch of questions.
Speaker 2: But you have explained this so well. My last question
Speaker 2: before we go to break, so if all of this
Speaker 2: happened in twenty and fifteen and the oversight was withdrawn
Speaker 2: by the regulators. Governor Baker was in charge of the
Speaker 2: state at the time, he was running for well, he
Speaker 2: was still really in his first He started in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 5: He started twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3: This was twenty fifteen, I know that, but start he.
Speaker 5: Got elected in fourteen until so he.
Speaker 2: Was he came on board as this thing was starting
Speaker 2: to become what was lacking regulation oversight.
Speaker 3: Was he where what was going on?
Speaker 4: I have not heard him explicitly say what he knew
Speaker 4: and what he didn't know. We know that he was
Speaker 4: paying attention, particularly his Health and Human Service Secretary Mary
Speaker 4: lou Sutter's was paying attention to it. There is a
Speaker 4: desire on the part of the administration and the state
Speaker 4: to not want to intervene in the affairs of a
Speaker 4: for profits system that has lots of sources of financing
Speaker 4: on its own, and so there's an interest in making
Speaker 4: sure that patient care is appropriate and up the snuff.
Speaker 4: And uh and Ralph was a good salesman. Ralph DELLATORI
Speaker 4: the the CEO of the system, and did a lot
Speaker 4: of a lot of letting, you know, put putting forward
Speaker 4: a good story about what was happening.
Speaker 5: And uh and uh.
Speaker 4: There there were so many challenges, you know, just talk
Speaker 4: about you know, Governor Baker and the m bt A
Speaker 4: and all of those are just just for starters. So
Speaker 4: so and and I'd say this is true of Governor
Speaker 4: Heally today.
Speaker 5: There's not there's not.
Speaker 4: A desire to have to take taxpayer money in Massachusetts
Speaker 4: and use it to prop up or rescue a for
Speaker 4: profit system like this and so, and so you can
Speaker 4: look back and hindsight is just a wonderful gift to have.
Speaker 4: But you know, there was this expectation that they had
Speaker 4: enough resource verses that they would be able to work
Speaker 4: it out and sustain themselves. And that turned out to
Speaker 4: be tragically incorrect, because I think there was a misjudgment
Speaker 4: about doctor delator and what his game was and what
Speaker 4: he was really about.
Speaker 2: Did did Governor Baker have a relationship with doctor Delatora?
Speaker 2: I mean, governors tend to know the moves and shakers
Speaker 2: in our society. Was there any interaction between the two
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, from the best of my knowledge, there there was
Speaker 4: an interaction and and uh uh uh and doctor Delatoria
Speaker 4: would talk directly to the governor, and so yeah, I
Speaker 4: think I think there was there was a relationship. And uh,
Speaker 4: you know, I don't know. I don't have precise information
Speaker 4: on how deeply the state leadership engaged because they had
Speaker 4: many other challenges and and didn't see that it was
Speaker 4: their job to come in and uh, the heavy handed
Speaker 4: monitor of a for profit system.
Speaker 3: All right, let's get the phone calls. Six.
Speaker 2: Let me go start it off with Robert Is in Quincy, Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: Let him get to Robert. First off, Robert, you were
Speaker 2: first up with Professor John McDonald.
Speaker 3: What's your comment of question?
Speaker 7: This is a loaded one. My first comment is, having
Speaker 7: worked in the healthcare field, we all know about Stewart.
Speaker 7: We know about the chairman. He has a nice, big boat.
Speaker 7: He has profit. It's all about profit and it's too
Speaker 7: good to be true. Charlie Baker worked as an executive
Speaker 7: for haved Kilgrim. He knew all about health care. He did.
Speaker 8: And we want to go back one more. We have
Speaker 8: comforts health care Potter Stewart, and they shut it down.
Speaker 8: Seventy thousand people, patients like myself. We're out and about
Speaker 8: without doctors. Now let's go over to Nowen Hospital. The
Speaker 8: hospital has a flood. They stop building the hospitals. Then
Speaker 8: all of a sudden they stop in their tracks because
Speaker 8: it's going to cost them money. And the Connie's one.
Speaker 8: I live in North Quincy. There are people in dorchesterday
Speaker 8: desperately need that hospital.
Speaker 2: We know that, Robert. But what I'm trying to do is, well, Robert,
Speaker 2: stop yelling at.
Speaker 7: Us, Okay, sleep for me.
Speaker 3: I favor take his audio down. Robert, if you want
Speaker 3: to ask a question.
Speaker 2: If you want to have a conversation with Professor McDonough,
Speaker 2: that would be great. But I didn't bring him on
Speaker 2: here as a guest to listen to people yell at him.
Speaker 2: So do you have a question for Professor McDonough, Go ahead.
Speaker 7: Robert, Professor McDonough and also a state rep. I listened
Speaker 7: to you and Dan Wright. I have a lot of
Speaker 7: respect for both of you. Well, what I don't have
Speaker 7: a respect for somebody's sleeping at the wheel and what
Speaker 7: do I mean? And this is the question. You stated
Speaker 7: that when they came off this uh receivership or whatever
Speaker 7: you want to call it, nobody did nothing. Now, shlie Baker.
Speaker 2: It wasn't receive It wasn't a receiver, David. Let's you've
Speaker 2: already made that point. Let's if there's a question, great,
Speaker 2: If not, I'm going to go to some callers.
Speaker 3: We have a question. Go ahead, Robert, if there's.
Speaker 8: John, tell me why nobody took the time and effort
Speaker 8: to hold a finger in the damn It's all about profit?
Speaker 3: Okay, do you want to make your speech? Thanks very
Speaker 3: much for you call. Robert.
Speaker 2: I didn't perceive a question there. You want to comment
Speaker 2: on his his screed John, I.
Speaker 4: Would just say that I totally resonate and respect and
Speaker 4: feel his anger.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 4: And he mentioned Norwood, he mentioned Compass, he mentioned Carnie.
Speaker 4: He also could have mentioned Quincy Hospital, which which Ralph
Speaker 4: Delatori took under Stewart's wing and then ended up closing it.
Speaker 4: The speaker of the House, Ron Mariano, will never forgive
Speaker 4: that because he feels like he was personally misled about
Speaker 4: the situation and about what would be done, and thought
Speaker 4: he had promises that Quincy would stay open and it
Speaker 4: wasn't true. So I think Robert's anger, I resonate with it,
Speaker 4: I feel it, and I feel like there are people
Speaker 4: all over Greater Boston who have a similar feelings.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of betrayal that kind of doesn't come
Speaker 5: out in the.
Speaker 4: Discussion about chapter eleven and bankruptcy. But I just I
Speaker 4: want Robert to know I think his anger and his
Speaker 4: frustration are totally justified.
Speaker 3: Yep, okay.
Speaker 2: As I said, I was doing my best to get
Speaker 2: a question, but we didn't. We got we did get
Speaker 2: his anger and frustration very clearly. We'll take a break.
Speaker 2: We have a couple of lines at six, one, seven, nine, thirty,
Speaker 2: going to go to Joe and Lynn Joe in Plymouth,
Speaker 2: Mark and North End Over Ladies feel free to jump
Speaker 2: on board as well. Coming back on Night's Side with
Speaker 2: Professor John McDonald of the Harvard Chant School of Public Health.
Speaker 1: Right after this, Now back to Dan Ray live from
Speaker 1: the Window World Night Side Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to look folks because of my tough
Speaker 2: time with Robert there questions. You got a question you've
Speaker 2: been waiting, I'll give you an opportunity.
Speaker 3: Let's have at it. Let me go to Joe. Joe,
Speaker 3: you're on with professor.
Speaker 9: Hey, Dan, thank you very much, and this is an
Speaker 9: excellent subject, Robert. I hope that when we're off the
Speaker 9: air we give a number to get in contact with you.
Speaker 9: Have a few things I'm want to say.
Speaker 2: You know what we don't We don't We're not doing
Speaker 2: connections here. Joe, I have a guest. If you want
Speaker 2: to ask a question. Have I move on to someone's
Speaker 2: going to ask my guest a question?
Speaker 9: Go ahead, Joe, Yes, I did. My question is can
Speaker 9: we put the hospitals back the way they used to be?
Speaker 9: Because Saint Elizabeth used to be a good hospital now
Speaker 9: I know someone that went there is having a lot
Speaker 9: of problems with it, and other hospitals they've gone down
Speaker 9: the tubes, and I'm disappointed in Stewart and Lynn hospitals
Speaker 9: closed like your comments on that.
Speaker 2: Okay, John, is there any hope here or is hope
Speaker 2: you know slim and none and Slim is just left town.
Speaker 4: I think it is possible, It is possible that we
Speaker 4: can come out of this, and not for every institution,
Speaker 4: but for most of them in a better situation than
Speaker 4: we were in under Stuart. There are, in fact, and
Speaker 4: it's not it's not public, and so I can't I
Speaker 4: can't say who's gonna do it, but there are for
Speaker 4: at least about five or six of the institutions, there
Speaker 4: are Massachusetts based nonprofit and community based hospitals that are
Speaker 4: looking to acquire one or the other of the Stuart hospitals.
Speaker 5: And so that is a that if.
Speaker 4: That plays out the way that people are saying beneath
Speaker 4: the surface, that could be a real positive, and we could.
Speaker 5: We wouldn't.
Speaker 4: We won't go back to a carry toss Christy chain.
Speaker 4: That's just not going to happen. There's no one in
Speaker 4: a position to do that, but some of our our
Speaker 4: real solid community based institutions are we understand stepping forward
Speaker 4: and have made bids and we think that that's the
Speaker 4: direction that a lot of this is going to go,
Speaker 4: So we could end up in a better place.
Speaker 2: So potentially without telling us who might be involved, are
Speaker 2: we talking about something that might resolve itself within a
Speaker 2: month or within a year?
Speaker 4: This is short term? Yeah, no, this this this would
Speaker 4: be this would be settled relatively quickly, and the state
Speaker 4: will be playing an important supportive role in providing some
Speaker 4: advanced financing to help make these deals and arrangements move forward.
Speaker 4: So yeah, and regarding Lynn Hospital, I still believe it
Speaker 4: was a real.
Speaker 5: Tragedy that Lynn lost.
Speaker 4: It's only the hut Care Hospital and yeah, that's but
Speaker 4: understand what's been going on since the early.
Speaker 5: Nineteen nineties Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: And this is back when I was in the legislature
Speaker 4: and I opposed it, but Massachusetts made a decision to
Speaker 4: say we are done with state regulation in terms of
Speaker 4: trying to determine the fate of the hospital system in Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: We think that the market is a better way to
Speaker 4: do it. And so we've really had about thirty years
Speaker 4: of having the market much more involved in the fate
Speaker 4: of our hospitals rather than community planning and really trying
Speaker 4: to understand the need and have government play a proactive role.
Speaker 4: In the nineties, we sort of had this idea, Oh,
Speaker 4: government always messes it up. We can't rely on government,
Speaker 4: and I think we're paying the price for that politics
Speaker 4: policy decision more than thirty years ago.
Speaker 2: Now, all right, Joe, good question, Joe. I got others
Speaker 2: that want to get to Okay, appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Question. Good night, market, north end of the market. You
Speaker 3: got to be quick for me. Go right ahead.
Speaker 6: You're all with Dan doctor. Thank you, Dan doctor, thank
Speaker 6: you for the time. Uh, the long story short. I
Speaker 6: know servers well, I know truere quite well. They're a client.
Speaker 6: I ran the technology for them. The question is where
Speaker 6: does the tough love come from here? Everybody expects that
Speaker 6: when they call nine one one, they're going to the
Speaker 6: best in care. That's not that's no longer possible. Where
Speaker 6: does the tough love come from here?
Speaker 4: The immediate tough love is that is that every acute
Speaker 4: care hospital operates under a license issued by the Massachusetts
Speaker 4: Department of Public Health, and so when something goes awry,
Speaker 4: when something goes wrong.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: The first place is what is the Department of Public
Speaker 4: Health understand and what are they doing? They are kind
Speaker 4: of the boots on the ground, the first people in there,
Speaker 4: and in fact, throughout this whole crisis, since it emerged
Speaker 4: about six months ago at the start of the year
Speaker 4: of the Department of Public Health has in fact had
Speaker 4: monitors and observers in every one of these steward facilities
Speaker 4: just to make sure that the quality of care is
Speaker 4: at the level that people have a right to expect
Speaker 4: it to be so.
Speaker 5: But there are higher levels as well.
Speaker 4: There's something called the Massachusetts Policy Commission, which has some
Speaker 4: really terrific people that do financial analysis and understanding. So yeah,
Speaker 4: there are a lot of different players involved in this,
Speaker 4: but Department of Public Health is the go to entity
Speaker 4: in terms of immediate reaction and oversight.
Speaker 2: Mark, great question. I appreciate it very much. Thank you,
Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. Let me go next to Uh. I'm
Speaker 2: going to go to John in debthim. John, you got
Speaker 2: to be quick, but getting tight on time with Professor
Speaker 2: John McDonald.
Speaker 10: Go ahead, John, Okay, I'll be very quick. I'm a
Speaker 10: little biased. I was born I said, Elizabeth. My mother
Speaker 10: worked there for twenty five years. But my question is
Speaker 10: you mentioned that they the Stewart sold the real estate
Speaker 10: after they purchased the hospital chain. Is that accurate?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 10: And then when they did that, who profited from that individually?
Speaker 10: And can anybody be held criminally responsible for this whole thing?
Speaker 10: And I'll listen to you, gentlemen, thank you.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, good question, go ahead.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great it's a great question. I'll just
Speaker 4: tell you that what they did. So in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 4: Cerberus and Steward sold all the real estate to this
Speaker 4: reach real estate investment trust called Medical Properties Trust down
Speaker 4: in Atlanta, and they took the money. A lot of
Speaker 4: it went straight into Cerberus's pocket, about five hundred million
Speaker 4: uh and some of it Ralph Tellatory, the president of
Speaker 4: the CEO of Stewart, used it to go on a
Speaker 4: buying spree of other hospitals around the country with the
Speaker 4: money from the real estate, so that by the year
Speaker 4: twenty twenty before everything crashed, Steward was the largest for
Speaker 4: profit hospital chain in the entire country. Out of nothing
Speaker 4: very quickly. So basically they took the money and they
Speaker 4: went on a buying spree. And now it's all crashing
Speaker 4: all around them.
Speaker 2: Now in twenty twenty, it seems to me that there
Speaker 2: would have been a lot of people going to hospitals
Speaker 2: for COVID related problems, and that that would have made
Speaker 2: hospitals more valuable. And how hospitals run out of money
Speaker 2: or put themselves out of business is beyond me. I
Speaker 2: have never gone to a hospital, looked at a bill
Speaker 2: and said, Wow, they only charged me so much.
Speaker 3: What's going on?
Speaker 2: John?
Speaker 4: So the big money for her hospital for acute care
Speaker 4: hospitals and surgeries, and in the COVID crisis, they had
Speaker 4: to suspend a lot of their surgeries. So the only
Speaker 4: reason most of them didn't go bankrupt during COVID was
Speaker 4: because the federal government came in and just smothered them
Speaker 4: in federal cash to tie them over during this period
Speaker 4: where they couldn't do it. And then they came out
Speaker 4: of that and they came back into relatively healthy shape
Speaker 4: where they are for the most part now.
Speaker 5: But COVID was not a.
Speaker 4: Financial boon for the institutions at all.
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to steal one more minute. Rob
Speaker 2: and Dan and I want to become in a Bob
Speaker 2: in Brockton. Bob you late. I got only a minute
Speaker 2: for you. What can you do.
Speaker 11: I'll make it quick. I'll make you quick. The question
Speaker 11: to John is it looks like this is a profit
Speaker 11: type thing. Where is it leave the County Hospital? The
Speaker 11: County Hospital really serves in between bars. It's been in
Speaker 11: social hospital. We really can't afford to close its matter
Speaker 11: of fact, my doctor is a specialist in gastrology. Because
Speaker 11: the hospital is closing. Yep, he's retiring.
Speaker 2: Okay, we got it, Bob, Bob, we got the question.
Speaker 2: I think you're not going to be happy with the answer.
Speaker 2: The Connie Hospital is due to close the end of
Speaker 2: this month. Am I correct on that?
Speaker 3: John?
Speaker 4: That is correct, And I think there's a lot of
Speaker 4: people who are very angry and upset about that. It's
Speaker 4: a tough judgment called by the Heally administration. I think
Speaker 4: they need to do a better job coming out and
Speaker 4: explaining everything that went into that decision.
Speaker 2: Bob, not the answer you wanted, but it's a straight answer.
Speaker 2: Thank you, my friend, Thank you, John McDonough, Thank you
Speaker 2: for your time tonight. A great explanation. Whether people like
Speaker 2: the answers or not, that's the reality.
Speaker 3: John. Love to have you back. Let's keep in touch.
Speaker 4: Okay, great to be with you, Dan, thanks for keeping
Speaker 4: me on. It's great to connect with you.
Speaker 3: My pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: When we get back, if you want to keep talking
Speaker 2: about this light, the lines up. If not, we're going
Speaker 2: to talk about bike lanes in Boston. Coming back on
Speaker 2: Night Side right after the ten