WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:04.240 It's Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w b Z 2 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:06.000 Constance video. 3 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:09.480 Thank you very much, Kyle was we move into the 4 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:13.119 nine o'clock hour. I'm delighted to well a guess that 5 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:16.039 I had kind of lost touch with. He was a 6 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:19.600 former is a former state representative at the State House. 7 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:24.760 I knew him in that capacity. He now works as 8 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.920 a professor of a practice in the area of healthcare 9 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:34.399 at the chan Harvard School of Public Health, Professor John McDonough. 10 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:36.960 I don't want to say what I want to say 11 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.600 representative of professor. We'll keep it at professor fan now, 12 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:41.479 But John, how are you welcome back? 13 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.399 Welcome back. It's great to renew an old acquaintances. 14 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:48.159 Great to be with you, Dan, and please just call 15 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:48.679 me John. 16 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.520 Okay, we can leave it at that. We want to 17 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:59.119 talk about the Stewart health crisis here in Massachusetts, and 18 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:02.439 as I mentioned last night, we're going to stay with 19 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.640 this story because I think it's an incredibly important story. 20 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:10.879 Let me start off with the general question and then 21 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:17.799 we'll get to a more specific question. Is this a 22 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:23.439 crisis that is unprecedented or is this happening with other 23 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:27.760 health groups in other parts of the country. 24 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:33.840 Well, so, there have been closings of hospitals and hospital 25 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:41.599 chains all over the country for profit a nonprofit, and 26 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:46.760 some of them have involved so called private equity financing, 27 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.599 and some of them just run out of gas and 28 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:52.879 don't have the support and the resources to survive. So 29 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:56.840 we've been seeing a shrinkage of hospitals going back at 30 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:02.439 least fifty years or even more, as as medicine gets 31 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:07.680 more complicated and specialized, and as as smaller and smaller 32 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:12.599 facilities find it harder to keep up to and to 33 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:16.879 maintain themselves financially and sufficient workers and otherwise. 34 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:23.039 This is special because of the uniqueness of the story. 35 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:29.039 A former Calcolic hospital chain that was highly respected and 36 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:36.039 loved by its patient population and its workers sold in 37 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:41.960 twenty ten to a private equity chain out of Wall 38 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.439 Street in New York. The private equity. 39 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:50.919 Firm is known as Cerberus cer b E r U s. 40 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:56.639 Cerberus is actually a Greek myth that is a three 41 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:59.960 headed dog that is supposed to be guarding the gates 42 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:01.639 of hell. 43 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.479 Well, there's we could carry that metaphor a little bit. 44 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:12.280 By the way. The former chain carriedis Christie was the 45 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:19.280 Catholic hospital chain and this This was caused, probably ironically 46 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.759 in some part, maybe a big part, maybe a small part, 47 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:26.520 but at least in some part by the the priest 48 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:32.080 pedophile priest crisis that broke around the turn of the 49 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.280 twenty first century here, you know, and that sort of 50 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:42.599 created a need for the Catholic Church to find uh finances, 51 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:47.520 money to to pay victims. Am I misreading that? 52 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:52.719 I'd say that was that was a substantial part of it. 53 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:56.960 That we we had the new archbishop and then Cardinals 54 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:00.840 Sean O'Malley come in really wanting to turn things around 55 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:07.400 and find in the archdiocese, in the Catholic Church infrastructure, 56 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:12.520 and finding that the decisions that were forced on him 57 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:18.040 in terms of being the owner of sophisticated chain of 58 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:21.160 acute care hospitals and other facilities was. 59 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:22.120 Quite a distraction. 60 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.600 Also, in addition to the scandal which had done real 61 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:32.680 damage to the reputation of the archdiocese, there was also 62 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:39.040 an underfunding of pensions in the archdiocese, both in the 63 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:44.759 carry tasks Christie system itself and beyond, and so the 64 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:49.839 archdiocese had a big problem financially in terms of needing 65 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:53.519 to invest and find the money to make up for 66 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:58.240 the short payments to its pension front. Over a good 67 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:03.120 number of years, there were some major issues both in 68 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:07.399 terms of the reputational scandal and the payments to victims, 69 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:11.279 but also the underfunding of the pension system and other 70 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:16.439 related issues that really came together by two thousand and five, six, 71 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:22.199 seven and eight for the archdiocese and Cardinal O'Malley to say, listen, 72 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:25.879 we've got to extricate ourselves from this. This is a 73 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:29.759 big distraction and we're really not confident to be able 74 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:33.480 to address all the pieces, and so looking for a solution. 75 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:37.519 And so one of their first challenges in two thousand 76 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:41.000 and eight was looking for a new president of the 77 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:46.680 system and there was a rising star surgeon at the 78 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:50.160 Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center by the name of doctor 79 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:56.720 Ralph Delatori, who had created a super practice of cardiac 80 00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:02.040 surgery at Beth Israel Deaconess, was a star started his 81 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:08.079 own center at Beth Israel, and he was interested in 82 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:13.040 looking for leadership opportunities in the health sector and applied 83 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.600 for and got the job in two thousand and eight 84 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:20.639 as the CEO and President of the Carrie cass Christie 85 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:26.480 Hospital System and took on that and a lot of 86 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:30.439 people were excited and said, this is a real burst 87 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:35.160 of electricity and energy in terms of reviving the system. 88 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:38.639 And then things started to turn. 89 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:40.720 Well they were. 90 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:43.639 We're going to start to talk about that turn, and 91 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.360 when we get back, we can focus on a now 92 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:49.360 very controversial ralph. 93 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.720 Is it pronounced dilatory? Is that the correct tranciation? 94 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:54.360 Ralph delatory deleatory? 95 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:59.360 Okay, who I guess spent part of the Olympics on 96 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:03.079 his yacht and part of his Olympics at Versailles, watching 97 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:10.199 some of the drissage equine equestrian competition, which we'll talk about, 98 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:13.560 And I also just want to talk about invite folks 99 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.160 if they'd like to join the conversation. 100 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:16.519 I think John. 101 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:19.360 I don't want to say that he knows this better 102 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:20.959 than anyone, but I think there are a few people 103 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:23.480 who would know it better than John McDonough, and I'm 104 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:25.480 delighted that he's been able to join us tonight. So 105 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.519 I will give the number just quickly six one seven, two, five, 106 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.240 four ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one 107 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.199 ten thirty. John has been kind of indicate they'll be 108 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:37.399 happy to take phone calls and try to answer questions. 109 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:39.839 I know a lot of you have questions. That's why 110 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.800 I'm doing this. I feel it's important for our audience. 111 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:44.240 We talked about it for an hour and a half 112 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.800 last night, but John is so much better versed in 113 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:50.279 this than I am. I am indubted to him for 114 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.079 being available tonight to answer some of my questions in 115 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:53.839 your questions. 116 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:56.000 My name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside. We will 117 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.160 be right back after these messages. 118 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.279 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 119 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:05.519 night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. 120 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:12.800 Joining us is Professor John McDonald, former state representative from 121 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:18.279 the Boston area. He has been with the chan Harvard 122 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:22.079 School of Public Health since twenty eleven, so he has 123 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:24.959 been observing this process before we go to phone calls. 124 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:27.439 Just a couple of things. We talked today a little 125 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:33.320 bit about what has been going on. And you basically 126 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:42.480 feel that the doctor Delatory is a villain in this story. 127 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:45.759 Not trying to put words in your mouth, but I 128 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.399 think you made a comparison today. If you want to 129 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:51.759 share that with the audience or tell me, tell me 130 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:55.120 how how you feel about his role as honestly as 131 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:56.159 you cannot appreciate it. 132 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:03.840 Well, So, doctor Delatory is the person who made the 133 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:09.679 relationship to take the Carrycoss Christie chain in twenty ten 134 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:15.519 and turn it into Steward Health owned by the Serberus 135 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:20.960 private equity firm, and turning it into a for profit 136 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:29.840 hospital system, which really was a financial toy for the 137 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:31.559 serverist folks from New York. 138 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:34.639 Private equity is a. 139 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:40.080 Controversial financing vehicle in the United States and around the world, 140 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.960 especially in the United States, and it's especially dangerous when 141 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:48.080 it gets involved in healthcare and medical care because the 142 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:51.639 heart and soul of medicine is that the patient comes first, 143 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:56.320 that it's about the patient relationship and their needs. And 144 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:01.039 the heart and soul of private equity is that profits 145 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:07.279 are first for the central shareholders, and everything else comes second, third, fourth, 146 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.240 or doesn't even make the list. And so there is 147 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:14.399 a fundamental contradiction here in terms of the values of 148 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:18.480 what private equity is and what most of us see 149 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:22.000 as essential about our health and medical care system. And 150 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:25.759 so Ralph by putting it in the hands of a 151 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:31.159 private equity firm, and then after the Attorney General stopped 152 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.919 watching in twenty fifteen, basically took all of the real 153 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:41.120 estate in that the former car Carrie Tusk Christie Chain 154 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:46.159 held the buildings the land for all of the eight 155 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:51.960 hospitals and basically sold all of the real estate to 156 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:59.039 another financial firm, kind of firm called a retri t 157 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:07.240 of state investment trust. And they basically pay the Cerberus 158 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.840 folks a large amount of money in exchange for getting 159 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:14.320 all their property. And now they're the landlord. And so 160 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:18.120 the folks at Saint Elizabeth's, the folks at Good Samaritan 161 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:22.799 and Brockton no longer own the building and land on 162 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:27.960 which their facility resides and have to actually pay exorbitant 163 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:32.399 rental payments way way way into the future that take 164 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:35.879 away from the money. And meanwhile, most of the proceeds 165 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:39.799 from the sale of the land and property go to 166 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:46.039 the reach the real estate investment trust. And this is 167 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:49.600 a formula, This is a process which basically kind of 168 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:54.840 bled this system dry and precipitated what is now the 169 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:59.960 bankruptcy and as we speak the dissolution of this shame. 170 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.039 We hope it may lead to a better place, but 171 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.399 we have no guarantee of that at all, because we 172 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:10.200 still have these Wall Street firms that are calling all 173 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:10.600 the shots. 174 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:12.639 Well, we have two hospitals which we know are going 175 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:17.120 to close, including Corning Hospital, which is a bedrock of 176 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:18.600 the Dorchester community. 177 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:22.960 And there's another hospital in Heir which. 178 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.360 Is about Nashoba Valley, closed. 179 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:25.840 By the end of the month. 180 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:30.120 And then there's another five or six hospitals which are 181 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:33.480 in jeopardy of closing. I know that there was a 182 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:40.240 deal today of a sale of there I guess the doctors. 183 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.840 What's called stewardship five thousand employed and affiliated physicians in 184 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:49.240 Massachusetts and nine other states. 185 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.279 This is a huge deal. That deal was. 186 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.960 Two hundred and forty five million dollars. I don't know 187 00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:02.759 how they sell doctors, but that's apparently we're with the 188 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:07.320 regulators here in Massachusetts. When all of this hijinks was 189 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:09.600 going on, I mean, someone should have at some point 190 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:11.840 been saying, slow this process down. 191 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.519 What are we getting into? Who's involved here? Where were there? 192 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:17.320 So the. 193 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:23.200 Carrie TuS Christy chain was sold to Cerberus to become 194 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:28.159 steward in twenty ten, and it had to be approved 195 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:33.679 by the Attorney General. Then Martha Cokeley was the Attorney 196 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:37.399 General at the time, and when she approved it, because 197 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:43.279 the archdiocese was bleeding and needed the revenue. 198 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.279 To come from the sale and they wanted out of it. 199 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:46.519 And there were. 200 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:51.759 Literally no other institutions in Greater Boston or Massachusetts that 201 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.080 came forward and said, yeah, we would like to take 202 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:59.679 over ownership and responsibility of this. So Cerberus was kind 203 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:03.759 of the only player in town that was willing to 204 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:09.000 come forward, and so we have a lot of public process, 205 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:14.440 a lot of public hearings. Martha Cokeley allowed the sale 206 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:21.080 to go forward and it became Steward under Cerberus. That 207 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:27.679 and that arrangement then had five years of close financial 208 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.759 monitoring by the Attorney General's office. One of my former 209 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.759 colleagues at the Harvard School of Public Health, Professor Nancy Kane, 210 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.879 was the actual financial monitor and she paid very close 211 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.360 attention and gave a lot of oversight and informed the 212 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:49.679 Attorney General of everything going on for five years. But 213 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.919 the deal was only oversight for five years, and then 214 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:57.639 once the oversight ended in twenty fifteen, then Stewart and 215 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:00.799 Cerberus were free to go their own way, and that's 216 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.840 when they sold the real estate out from under the 217 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:12.799 institutions and started the process of just Senator Elizabeth Warrenkat 218 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:17.279 and Senator Marky call it the looting of this This 219 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:23.000 former hospital chain and so so, so that's that's one 220 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:26.840 piece and you can look at it stage by stage 221 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:29.159 and see the process. 222 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.000 But it was after the five. 223 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.320 Years of oversight things really started to go south in 224 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.279 terms of what was going on in that system. 225 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:39.360 So once the five years of oversight ended, at that 226 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.559 point some of us was able to do whatever they want. 227 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.360 There was there was no regulation and whatsoever, no oversight. 228 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:50.440 There actually was. We do have we do have a 229 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:57.840 healthcare financial Oversight group called it's called CHIA CHIA, which 230 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:01.039 is a Center for Health Information and as it's a 231 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:06.879 wonderful agency and every acute care hospital and like Stewart, 232 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:13.320 has to provide extensive financial information every single year. And 233 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:18.279 for the first five years they provided that information and 234 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.480 once they were out from under the thumb of the 235 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:24.879 Attorney General and were free, they stopped providing any information. 236 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:31.919 And SIA actually took Stewart to court and has been 237 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.919 unable to get resolution in terms of that action. So 238 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:41.039 it's been about eight to nine years now where they 239 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:45.360 have done no financial reporting to the state as they 240 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:50.240 are legally required to do, and so there are definitely 241 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.320 issues the are in terms of what went wrong that 242 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.679 they could get away with this, and the legislature right 243 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.200 now is trying to toughen that loss so that we'll 244 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.320 never see a situation like that again. 245 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.079 That should have been a huge red flag. I guess 246 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:08.160 they refused to file financial reports with Massachusetts regulators for 247 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:13.440 years before moving the headquarters from Boston to Dallas in 248 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:17.359 twenty eighteen. Try not thriling your tax returns with the 249 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.559 irs and see how long you can get away with that, 250 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:26.640 real quick, if I could, how much did seahbus pay 251 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.440 for this whole shooting match back in twenty ten? 252 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:31.559 Approximately? 253 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:36.200 If you know, I'm forgetting the number I can that 254 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:37.960 I can find out and get it back to you 255 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:38.680 who have no. 256 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.640 Problem, no public I don't remember. So then after. 257 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:46.839 Five years twenty fifteen, at that point, that from twenty 258 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.160 ten to twenty fifteen covers the governorships of Governor Deval 259 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.200 Patrick into the first term of. 260 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:54.400 The Baker administration. 261 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:00.400 And did the Baker administration drop the ball in not 262 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:07.599 providing whatever oversight was necessary after this five year period expired. 263 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:13.359 It just seems to me that this company, all of 264 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:15.880 a sudden, it was the inmates running the asylum. After 265 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:18.720 the five years were up, they behaved themselves for five years, 266 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:20.720 and after five years they thumb their those that the 267 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:22.640 State of Massachusetts regulators. 268 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.880 I mean, just I'll tell you so. In in twenty ten, 269 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:32.400 a Cerberus paid eight hundred and ninety five million dollars 270 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:35.559 to buy the carry Task System. 271 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:39.920 Okay, what is its value today? If any I know 272 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:41.720 it's invasorancy proceeedings, but. 273 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:43.680 It has its value today. 274 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:47.920 I haven't seen any really good. So nobody's looking at 275 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:50.000 the value of the whole chain right now because it's 276 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:54.200 being broken up piece by piece. And some places like 277 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:58.839 you have Norton Hospital that had Norwood Hospital that has 278 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:00.079 been closed. 279 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.519 For that was hit that was hit with a flood. 280 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:05.160 Okay, so so so I'll give them a break on 281 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.960 that right that was hit by a flood. But you 282 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:13.400 have these other hospitals. I don't understand how hospitals go 283 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.720 out of business, to be really honest with you, it 284 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.720 seems to me whenever I've known anyone going to a hospital, 285 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.799 you get you get charged for everything down to an aspirin, 286 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.440 and you know, which is understandable, but. 287 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:31.880 Boy, what a what a mess. John. 288 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.720 Let's take a break. I want to open up the 289 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.200 phone lines. Give folks there's a couple of folks waiting. 290 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.880 If not, we'll open up phone calls. You've explained this 291 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:46.519 extraordinarily well. Obviously, this is a lack of oversight and nobody, 292 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:51.839 nobody identified this problem. It's like I just came back 293 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:56.519 from Pompeii in Italy. It's it's almost as if you're 294 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:01.160 next to Mount Vesuvius and you say, you know, I 295 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:05.160 got a bad feeling here that this thing might erupt. 296 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.000 This is our own little monk Vesuvius without the lava 297 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.759 here in Massachusetts, because it's going to affect a lot 298 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.640 of people adversely. Six one seven two thirty six one 299 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:20.359 seven nine thirty. My guest is Professor John McDonough. He 300 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:23.759 is a professor of the Practice of healthcare at the 301 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.759 Harvard chan School of Public Health. He knows this situation 302 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.559 very well. He's explained it extraordinarily well. Uh, and we'll 303 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.440 take some more questions. I have plenty of questions, but 304 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:37.319 I want to open it up for you to get 305 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.039 an opportunity to spark to speak with Professor McDonough. Not 306 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.960 only where we go from here, how did we get here? 307 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.480 And is there any resolution that might that just might 308 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:54.319 provide a good solution or a livable solution here in Massachusetts. 309 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.279 It looks to me like this is a train work, 310 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:02.119 a train wreck in slow motion. Hopefully John McDonough will 311 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:05.240 be able to convince me that that characterization is incorrect 312 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:08.720 once we get back right after the news at the 313 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:09.359 bottom of the hour. 314 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:11.240 My name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside. 315 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:17.680 Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio. 316 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:22.880 My guest is doctor John McDonough was with the Cham 317 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:29.160 School of Public Health at Harvard University. Doctor McDonough, I 318 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:31.319 want to go to phone calls. We've had people holding 319 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.240 on here, so I've got a whole bunch of questions. 320 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.440 But you have explained this so well. My last question 321 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.279 before we go to break, so if all of this 322 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:47.880 happened in twenty and fifteen and the oversight was withdrawn 323 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:53.119 by the regulators. Governor Baker was in charge of the 324 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:58.400 state at the time, he was running for well, he 325 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.920 was still really in his first He started in twenty fourteen. 326 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:03.759 He started twenty fifteen. 327 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:06.519 This was twenty fifteen, I know that, but start he. 328 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.200 Got elected in fourteen until so he. 329 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:13.599 Was he came on board as this thing was starting 330 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:18.079 to become what was lacking regulation oversight. 331 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:20.000 Was he where what was going on? 332 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.759 I have not heard him explicitly say what he knew 333 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.319 and what he didn't know. We know that he was 334 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.880 paying attention, particularly his Health and Human Service Secretary Mary 335 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:40.119 lou Sutter's was paying attention to it. There is a 336 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:44.160 desire on the part of the administration and the state 337 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:49.799 to not want to intervene in the affairs of a 338 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:54.039 for profits system that has lots of sources of financing 339 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:58.519 on its own, and so there's an interest in making 340 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:03.160 sure that patient care is appropriate and up the snuff. 341 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:08.400 And uh and Ralph was a good salesman. Ralph DELLATORI 342 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:13.200 the the CEO of the system, and did a lot 343 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:18.799 of a lot of letting, you know, put putting forward 344 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:20.559 a good story about what was happening. 345 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.000 And uh and uh. 346 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.559 There there were so many challenges, you know, just talk 347 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:28.119 about you know, Governor Baker and the m bt A 348 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:32.599 and all of those are just just for starters. So 349 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.079 so and and I'd say this is true of Governor 350 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:35.759 Heally today. 351 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:36.839 There's not there's not. 352 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:42.880 A desire to have to take taxpayer money in Massachusetts 353 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.400 and use it to prop up or rescue a for 354 00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:51.359 profit system like this and so, and so you can 355 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:54.559 look back and hindsight is just a wonderful gift to have. 356 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.319 But you know, there was this expectation that they had 357 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:01.640 enough resource verses that they would be able to work 358 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.279 it out and sustain themselves. And that turned out to 359 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.000 be tragically incorrect, because I think there was a misjudgment 360 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:11.240 about doctor delator and what his game was and what 361 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:12.119 he was really about. 362 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:16.319 Did did Governor Baker have a relationship with doctor Delatora? 363 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:20.240 I mean, governors tend to know the moves and shakers 364 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.839 in our society. Was there any interaction between the two 365 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:23.119 of them. 366 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.920 Yeah, from the best of my knowledge, there there was 367 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.440 an interaction and and uh uh uh and doctor Delatoria 368 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:35.599 would talk directly to the governor, and so yeah, I 369 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:38.359 think I think there was there was a relationship. And uh, 370 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:42.359 you know, I don't know. I don't have precise information 371 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:47.279 on how deeply the state leadership engaged because they had 372 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.640 many other challenges and and didn't see that it was 373 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:56.240 their job to come in and uh, the heavy handed 374 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:59.079 monitor of a for profit system. 375 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:00.759 All right, let's get the phone calls. Six. 376 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:08.319 Let me go start it off with Robert Is in Quincy, Massachusetts. 377 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:10.839 Let him get to Robert. First off, Robert, you were 378 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.000 first up with Professor John McDonald. 379 00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:14.000 What's your comment of question? 380 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:20.720 This is a loaded one. My first comment is, having 381 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:24.720 worked in the healthcare field, we all know about Stewart. 382 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:28.039 We know about the chairman. He has a nice, big boat. 383 00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:32.799 He has profit. It's all about profit and it's too 384 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:37.000 good to be true. Charlie Baker worked as an executive 385 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:43.799 for haved Kilgrim. He knew all about health care. He did. 386 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.400 And we want to go back one more. We have 387 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:51.519 comforts health care Potter Stewart, and they shut it down. 388 00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.960 Seventy thousand people, patients like myself. We're out and about 389 00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:00.519 without doctors. Now let's go over to Nowen Hospital. The 390 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:04.279 hospital has a flood. They stop building the hospitals. Then 391 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.200 all of a sudden they stop in their tracks because 392 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:10.519 it's going to cost them money. And the Connie's one. 393 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.559 I live in North Quincy. There are people in dorchesterday 394 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:16.279 desperately need that hospital. 395 00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:21.920 We know that, Robert. But what I'm trying to do is, well, Robert, 396 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:23.079 stop yelling at. 397 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:24.480 Us, Okay, sleep for me. 398 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.799 I favor take his audio down. Robert, if you want 399 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:27.720 to ask a question. 400 00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.920 If you want to have a conversation with Professor McDonough, 401 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:34.079