WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:05.040 You see, something's going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 What What's going to happen? 3 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:22.719 What? Help? 4 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:30.480 Welcome to the Occult Rejects. Very very exciting episode today. 5 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:34.240 We couldn't be happier enough to have Doctor Gregory show. 6 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:35.840 Oh actually, I'm not even sure if I'm gonna say 7 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:38.280 this correctly. I meant to ask you, is that correct? 8 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:39.280 All right? 9 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:41.039 Close enough? I meant to ask you probly. I always 10 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:42.439 want to make sure I get you guys names right, 11 00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:48.159 you know, uh on today for near death experiences. I'm 12 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:51.079 sure for regular listeners of the show you have heard 13 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:54.280 me bring this up plenty of times. I think most 14 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:56.799 of the Occult Rejects are actually very intrigued by this 15 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.719 whole situation. And I have mentioned before it's my opinion. 16 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:03.399 I do think and I do wonder for other people's 17 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:08.280 experiences if an NDE may doesn't necessarily have to be, 18 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:10.680 But maybe it is a part of magic for some people, 19 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:13.359 you know, maybe that is just a part of the 20 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:17.000 journey in the whole cycle of having a magical experience. 21 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.239 So we got Lisa, we got Ethan Indigo, and we 22 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:23.920 got Jin the Ninja with us as well. Their links 23 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:26.319 will be in the bottom and we got doctor Gregory again, 24 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:29.319 thank you so much for coming on for the people 25 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:31.200 who don't know who you are, and they should find 26 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:34.359 out who you are. Please let everybody know what your 27 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:35.920 deal is and everything. 28 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:39.200 Okay, Yeah, thanks for having me on, Nick, of course. Yeah. 29 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:42.439 So my name's Gregory Shoujan. I'm a historian of religions. 30 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.319 So a lot of people, most of the people who 31 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:49.159 are near death studies, researchers, professionals, come from, you know, 32 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:53.040 the medical sciences. People like Bruce Grayson, Kennethry and Jen 33 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:58.280 Holden know either psychiatrists or cardiologists. Sam Parnia van Lomo 34 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:01.840 I came from the humanities. Where I come from the humanities. 35 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:04.120 I'm kind of still situated. 36 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:04.040 In that world. 37 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:07.680 I actually started out in Egyptian archaeology and Eastern Mediterranean 38 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.919 archaeology and then kind of defected to the study of religions, 39 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:16.159 historical study of religions across culturally and kind of carved 40 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:20.439 out a niche that didn't really exist basically within the humanities. 41 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:21.439 Combining all these. 42 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:25.120 These different various sorts of interests, so I'm practically a 43 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:29.159 field unto myself, with a few other a few exceptions. 44 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:32.879 That's great, though, yeah, you know what he did, totally 45 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:35.639 forget to mention, but just real quick, yeah, I was 46 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:37.280 going to read off some of the stuff about you. 47 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:41.560 You are an award winning author affiliated with Birmingham Newman University, 48 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:46.000 University of Winchester and Marian University and the Paris Psychology Foundation, 49 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:50.680 and you are on the show to promote your book 50 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.319 The Near Death Experience in Ancient Civilizations, The Origins of 51 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:57.159 the world's after life beliefs. Did forget to mention that 52 00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:58.560 was the whole reason you were coming on too. You 53 00:02:58.599 --> 00:02:59.919 have read a book on that and that's been some 54 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:03.479 even studying for a while. Like you said, so I 55 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:05.919 guess to get into it. What was it that you 56 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:08.560 were what got you into looking into NDEs? 57 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:09.960 Uh? 58 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.879 Yeah, I was actually, strangely enough, came from my Egyptian 59 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.639 archaeology studies as an undergraduate. You know, you're learning about 60 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.240 higher glyphs and reading things like the Books of the 61 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:22.199 Dead and the predecessors to the Books of the with 62 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.319 the pyramid texts and the Coffin texts. These are the 63 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.199 kind of the some of the world's earliest expressions of 64 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:31.719 you know, religious beliefs, and they included guide books about 65 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.960 you know, telling the soul how to negotiate the different 66 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:38.599 obstacles in the other world, and you know, kind of 67 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.360 union with the different deities and the kinds of experiences 68 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:45.599 that you should expect when you get there. And as 69 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:48.319 I was reading these texts, I started thinking, like, if 70 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:53.759 you strip back some of the Egyptian cultural obvious layers, 71 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:56.360 you're kind of left with something that looks a lot 72 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.360 like in your death experience. So the soul leaves the body. 73 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.400 In this case it's the mummy, It travels through darkness. 74 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.080 In the Egyptian case, it's like different caves and caverns 75 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.400 and gates, emerges into a realm of light, which is, 76 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:13.159 you know, this heavenly cosmic sort of realm meets a 77 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:16.160 being of light who in Egypt is the sun god Ray, 78 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:20.439 you know, emanating light. There is a evaluation of your 79 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.839 earthly life. You meet your deceased relatives, you have a 80 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:31.439 kind of transformative unification experience with the divine, and you 81 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.560 also encounter your own corpse in a sense, because you're 82 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:37.600 associated with all of these deities and at one point 83 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.399 you're associated with Osiris very very clearly, like this real 84 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.279 emphasis that the soul of the dead is Osiris. Osiris 85 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:46.959 is the god of the dead and also the judge 86 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:49.759 of the dead. And there's a point in this text 87 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:53.480 where the soul the dead encounters the corpse of Osiris 88 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:55.639 in the other world and it basically says, you are 89 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:59.160 this god, you are this corpse. So it's this realization, 90 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.319 just like near to experiencers have that when you see 91 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:04.959 your body from a vantage point outside of it, your 92 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.920 mind is like, wait, hang on a second, I've survived 93 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:09.000 the death of my body. 94 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:11.279 There's my corpse, and yet I'm still alive. 95 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:14.000 So it's that realization that kind of leads to the 96 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:18.319 transformation experience in the afterlife that allows you to kind 97 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:22.600 of keep going essentially. So yeah, I started thinking, you know, 98 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.920 if there's all these this kind of set of like 99 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:27.800 nine elements that are so similar to near death experiences, 100 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:32.199 maybe these afterlife beliefs and this idea of the afterlife 101 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:35.639 journey was actually you know, grounded in some ancient near 102 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:36.399 death experience. 103 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:40.800 Nice and in your new book, I do know you 104 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:44.199 also do focus on like five major places Egypt, Sumor Mesopotamia, 105 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.600 India and India, China, and may An Aztec right. 106 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:50.560 Right, yes, Yeah, So to test that idea. 107 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:52.920 I basically thought, I'm going to do a cross cultural 108 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:56.240 comparison of the afterlife journey beliefs in all of these 109 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:01.480 ancient civilizations, and I found like, essentially those same nine elements, 110 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:05.639 almost as if they're like superimposed onto these different societies. 111 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.040 But what I didn't expect to find at first was, 112 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:09.279 you know, I thought I was just going to look 113 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.000 at their beliefs, their religious texts, And as I was 114 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:15.519 doing the research, I realized that there were actual accounts 115 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.120 of near death experiences in all of these ancient civilizations 116 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.639 except for Egypt. Egypt didn't have like a context for 117 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:26.920 reporting about these kinds of things, like writing was limited 118 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:32.800 to either bureaucracy or accounting or you know, decrees by 119 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.000 the pharaoh look at how great I am, like how 120 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:37.360 I'm the son of the Sun God and worship me 121 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.519 and all this kind of stuff, so ritual priestly text. 122 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.800 They didn't have like personal narratives of like or reporting, 123 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.920 you know, like this person died in this province and 124 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:49.240 this is what happened to them. But in all of 125 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.240 the other societies, we have actual accounts of you know, 126 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:56.560 historical near death experiences. From India, there's like medical magical 127 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.600 texts that describe how to go save the soul of 128 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:02.759 somebody who is in danger of dying and basically bring 129 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:05.040 their soul back to their body. So again, you know, 130 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:09.399 that shows medical medical magical kind of awareness of near 131 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.639 death experience. A medical magical border is kind of, you know, 132 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:15.199 something to parse. 133 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:17.959 We would see it as magical, they'd see it as medical. 134 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:23.399 I think that is interesting. I don't think you mentioned 135 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:26.720 it before since since we've been recording. What are like 136 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:28.360 the nine things that you're that you look for? 137 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:32.560 Yeah, so well, actually I should say, first of off, 138 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.199 First of all, the way I approached it was not 139 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.360 like I'm going to determine if this is a near 140 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.079 death experience if it has these elements. So I decided 141 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:46.000 I'm going to look at whatever that society thinks of 142 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.759 as as an example of somebody who died and came 143 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:50.639 back to life and talked about the experience. So if 144 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:52.199 they if they came back and said, you know, I 145 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.480 went to Mars and I saw three headed beings, I'd say, okay, that's. 146 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:58.879 A near death experience. It's just an unusual one. 147 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.199 So it was the context that I let kind of 148 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.439 steer my whole approach to the subject. But having said that, 149 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:08.959 you know, these nine elements emerged out of all of 150 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:13.839 these different societies, and that's leaving the body entering darkness, 151 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.720 coming out into some kind of other realm, which is 152 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:21.000 a realm of light, meeting a being of light, having 153 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:25.560 some kind of transformative experience that's related to that being, 154 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:29.079 or some kind of union with a divine or divinization 155 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:32.120 of the soul. Decease relatives. I don't know if I 156 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:39.480 said that yet, some kind of moral evaluation of the 157 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:41.519 life that you just left on earth, some kind of 158 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:44.559 not necessarily like a big panoramic life review as we 159 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:49.759 associate with ndase, but some kind of evaluation of your life. 160 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:53.840 And then, because I wasn't dealing with near death experiences 161 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:56.519 in those religious texts, there's not a return to the body, 162 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.919 because it wasn't an nd whose texts were basically, you know, 163 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:05.879 instructing the soul how to negotiate the other world. But 164 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.480 you know, the kind of implication is that somebody had 165 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.759 been there and came back, and that's how they know 166 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:15.799 how to describe this process of you know, dying and 167 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:17.080 proceeding in the next world. 168 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:19.960 This is very interesting. That's just what I was going 169 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:23.080 to ask, And I think maybe what you just said 170 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.240 pretty much answers the question I was assuming. Maybe the 171 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:27.600 way you're looking at it now, as you're saying that 172 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:30.720 you found non commonalities between in all these different places, 173 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:32.639 is it like something that you've noticed that, like, all 174 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:34.919 of them all have this, regardless how their story is 175 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:35.559 a little different. 176 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:40.279 Yeah, exactly, pretty much, And it's almost like they're embedded 177 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:45.000 within the wider afterlife beliefs, but they're definitely identifiably there. 178 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:47.279 But what I also tried to do with the book is, 179 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:49.200 you know, I don't want to just cherry pick the 180 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:55.039 evidence because that's not a scientific approach. So I also 181 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:58.600 described all of the differences cross culturally and then showed 182 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.200 like how some of those differences match up to the 183 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.759 near death experience, and then how some of them seem 184 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.159 to just be like completely cultural things. For example, like 185 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.240 in China, there's descriptions of people leaving the body and 186 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:14.639 ascending to heaven on the back of a dragon. So 187 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:18.240 the idea of leaving the body and ascending is obviously 188 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:19.519 a cross cultural. 189 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:20.279 Thing with new death experience. 190 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.120 But you know, people in Egypt aren't writing dragons to 191 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:26.039 the other world, and people in contemporary America or Europe 192 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:27.399 aren't writing dragons. 193 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:27.679 To the other world. 194 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:32.000 So there's these you know, cultural expressions of these experiences. 195 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:35.120 Basically, that is interesting. 196 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:40.279 Did anybody have any questions before. 197 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:44.960 I actually have one, Doctor Shoshan, I'm a little I 198 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.240 guess that I'm a little ignorant of the Egyptian cosmology 199 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:49.200 and theology. 200 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:49.840 More broadly. 201 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:52.200 I just was wondering some of the things that you 202 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.799 mentioned a few minutes ago sounded very much like they 203 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:59.679 were experimenting with ideas of like duality non duality, and 204 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.039 I would wondering if you could sort of like locate 205 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:05.600 that for me in a kind of I guess modern 206 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:11.360 epistem or whatever. And then also, is reincarnation or rebirth 207 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:15.480 a factor in some of these like andes, especially for 208 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:18.200 Egyptian cosmology, simply because I'm so ignorant of it? 209 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:18.799 Thank you? 210 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:21.840 Okay, Yeah, the first question is easy, and that's that's 211 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:24.320 a no. There's there's not really any evidence for reincarnation 212 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:30.080 beliefs in Egypt as far as their cosmology goes, especially 213 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.679 in relation to the afterlife. It's both complex and also 214 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:38.840 not entirely properly understood by Egyptologists even after like two 215 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:42.159 hundred years of research, and just to give one example 216 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:45.080 of that, the soul of the dead goes to the 217 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:48.360 other world and as I mentioned, joins the Sun god 218 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.039 the being of light Osyrus, and it's portrayed is like 219 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:56.480 a kind of infinite universal cosmic circuit. 220 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:57.320 So they go. 221 00:11:57.720 --> 00:11:59.720 He joins the Sun god on the on the celestial 222 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.919 which sails into the cosmos and then sails down into 223 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.639 the underworld. And during this process, the soul of the 224 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.440 dead is not just with the god Ray. He becomes 225 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:15.200 the god Ray and then traveling in the underworld, becomes 226 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.600 the god Osiris and travels with Osiris. And there's even 227 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.240 a deity called Osiris Ray, which is this kind of 228 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:24.759 as you said, it's like a reconciliation of the duality. 229 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:27.679 So it's almost like this omnipresence. The soul of the 230 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.440 dead becomes one with both of these gods. Both of 231 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.200 these gods are also one with each other. And then 232 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:38.399 there are descriptions of they call it in the archaeological 233 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:42.480 literature member of patheosis, and it's basically each part of 234 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:44.919 the soul of the dead's body, you know, their subtle 235 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.600 body or whatever is associated with a particular deity. So 236 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.440 you know, this arm is atom, and this part of 237 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:56.320 the arm is raw, and this part is isis, and 238 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:59.360 this part is Osiris and whatever. So it's this you know, 239 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:05.279 symbolic expression of how you are basically transcendental everything. You 240 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.879 are all of these these deities, and it's in all 241 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:12.759 of the properties of these cities, so knowledge, fertility, creation, wisdom, 242 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:17.120 and so on. So as if that's not complicated enough, 243 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:21.080 there's also descriptions in these texts of the soul of 244 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:24.200 the dead dwelling forever in the field of offerings, which 245 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.039 are the offerings that people on earth, you know, burn 246 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.679 and send to the souls of the dead, so they 247 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:34.519 would be living off and benefiting from from the offerings 248 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.320 that the people on earth are making to them, or 249 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:39.480 the soul of or the field of marshes. You know, 250 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:41.759 it's this kind of like happy hunting grounds kind of place. 251 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:43.879 So it's portrayed as if, like, you know, you're going 252 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.240 to have this wonderful, heavenly eternity, but at the same 253 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:51.039 time it's portrayed as this eternal cosmic circuit. So and 254 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:53.440 that's the kind of thing that has puzzled Egyptologists for 255 00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:55.960 a long time, and I wonder if it's just another 256 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:01.360 expression of that transcendent kind of space that you enter 257 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:04.360 into that you're actually you are everything at once, you're 258 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:08.600 doing everything at once, and it's really impossible for us 259 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:12.480 in our earthly forms to even comprehend what's going on. 260 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.600 I kind of wonder if that's the message. But other 261 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.440 Egyptologists have said things like, you know, it was the 262 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.600 South they believed in this particular form of afterlife. The 263 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:26.360 North they believe this, and when the scribes put it together, 264 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:29.200 they didn't try to reconcile it, so they just kind 265 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:31.919 of threw everything together. They didn't really understand what they 266 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:34.720 were portraying. I don't agree with that. I kind of 267 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:36.840 think like we have to trust the sources and trust 268 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:40.120 that the ancient Egyptian people and scribes really did know 269 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.039 what they were talking about, and it's up to us 270 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:43.840 to find a way to understand it rather than to 271 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:48.720 you know, accuse them of ignorance essentially. So I hope 272 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:52.600 that answers the question. I mean, it's pretty as I said, 273 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.799 even after all these this time of formal egyptological studies, 274 00:14:56.919 --> 00:14:59.480 there's still stuff that's not quite fully understood about their 275 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:00.279 religious leaves. 276 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.600 I wanted to add on that, or ask for you 277 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:09.919 to add on that. I understand, I believe, I gather 278 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:15.639 that you're finding these nine elements were not necessarily sought 279 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:18.759 after at first, but you kind of found them being 280 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.440 intricate in each one of these systems. I wonder as 281 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.679 you described the elements too, it made me even want 282 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.120 to ask more about this because they some of them 283 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:36.879 had a correspondence to the eight slash nine parts of 284 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:43.559 the Egyptian Soul and Body, and Lisa was had a 285 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:48.240 corresponding idea with the nine elements that she was thinking 286 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:53.000 of too that were I don't I don't know as well, 287 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:54.919 but Lisa, maybe you want to mention those. 288 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:02.200 Yeah, when you mentioned how the soul was going through 289 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.480 these levels, these journeys, and then the nine, it reminded 290 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:08.360 me of the Aztec Mayan belief system where they journey 291 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:13.159 through nine different levels for the purpose of purification and 292 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.080 like washing away or like you said, like there's a 293 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.399 whole event like you're you're being processed. If it's not 294 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.559 hr the DMV, but you're being processed through these nine 295 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:27.360 levels that the going through and it's and it's not 296 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.399 only just you know, weighing out everything. It's the trials 297 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.320 and tribulations, at least that's what I've read. And and 298 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.919 then the end result is eternal rest or you know, 299 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:40.240 returning back to source or or something like. 300 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.879 That, right, Yeah, And that's symbolized in some of the 301 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.080 like the ancient maintext, the Popolo, it's about these set 302 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.879 of twins who descend to the other world and they're 303 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:54.919 first is their fathers who go and they they're outwitted 304 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:56.960 by all these gods of the dead in the other 305 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.000 world and they fail all these tests and they get 306 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.759 beheaded and annihilated essentially. And then their their children, who 307 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.160 are also twins, also go to the other world, but 308 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:10.240 now they have the knowledge of their fathers and so 309 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.720 they're able to kind of overcome all of these different trials. 310 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:14.319 Uh. 311 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:15.759 And at the end of the text it says and 312 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:17.880 they ascend it into the light. So it's it's a 313 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.599 very similar kind of thematic thing, and that happens. There's 314 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.000 text like that all around the world. There's in ancient Mesopotamia, 315 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.839 there's the descent of Inana to the underworld. 316 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:29.920 She's a goddess. 317 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:35.440 Associated with love and the planet Venus, and she she 318 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.440 goes to the underworld in order to like overthrow the 319 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:42.160 reigning queen of the dead there. But what's interesting about 320 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.519 it is as she she goes there, she she has 321 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.440 to shed seven garments at seven different stages, and each 322 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.559 of those garments are like symbolic of some earthly sort 323 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.480 of attribute, so it's almost like she's she's shedding these 324 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:01.400 you know, this this accretions of that her had on Earth. 325 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:03.079 And then as she when she gets there, she's in 326 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.400 a more kind of purified state. So you know, whether 327 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:08.599 that's happening in Egypt, it's really hard to say because 328 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.160 again this you know, different things are portrayed as as 329 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.480 the ultimate state. And then when you get to somewhere 330 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:19.000 like India where they have reincarnation beliefs, are some of 331 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.680 the Native American accounts as well, you know, trying to 332 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.759 reconcile what this this afterlife state is in relation to reincarnation, 333 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.400 it usually seems like it's it's a you know, intermediate 334 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:36.000 state before rebirth. And in India there's an interesting correspondence 335 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:40.039 because we have quite a few texts describing a journey 336 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.920 of a young boy to the afterlife and then a return, 337 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:45.559 and it's very much it's basically a near death experienced 338 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:48.640 myth that's repeated over the centuries. But then once since 339 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.200 reincarnation is introduced as a as a new doctrine, those 340 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.160 kind of myths kind of fall away and there's more 341 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:58.119 focus on the kind of cosmic elements of the afterlife 342 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:02.000 realm and how to negotiate them, and in the Indian case, 343 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:07.240 basically recognizing that the self, like the inner unchanging self, 344 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.799 which they call the Atman, is one and the same 345 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:15.359 as Brahman, which is the cosmic universality of everything, which 346 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:17.799 you know, is paralleled in the in some of the 347 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.759 Egyptian cases. So so yeah, a lot of these themes, 348 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:24.839 even that aren't necessarily like identifiable near death experience themes, 349 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.799 are still kind of thematically found in a lot of 350 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.960 these different cultures around the world, these ideas of transcendence 351 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:32.160 and things like that. 352 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.440 One thing I did want to also ask. I'm trying 353 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:38.680 to ask this in the best way possible too, because 354 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.119 there's different ways I guess it could be done when 355 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.000 it comes to art, and I guess that would even 356 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:45.799 be like physical like something drawn on a wall or 357 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.359 on a canvas or in written text. Did you notice 358 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:53.319 like ways of symbolism being done in like an art 359 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.680 that was common amongst all these different areas that you 360 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.359 looked at when they talked about NDEs, No. 361 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.000 That was that's a bit more difficult. 362 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.759 Actually, there's the first thing that comes to mind is 363 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:11.759 there's a hand period Chinese like funerary banner they call it, 364 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:13.599 and it's a kind of T shaped thing, and it 365 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.839 shows the different stages of death and the afterlife, and 366 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.920 it's like dragons and different people in different positions. And 367 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.960 the only way to really understand that is if you 368 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.559 have a description of it by you know, a Chinese 369 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.640 scholar somebody's who's who knows how to read that particular banner. 370 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:35.160 Once you know that, there are a lot of things 371 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.960 about it that correspond to your death experience because it's 372 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.200 the sole traveling to the other world and meeting the 373 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.799 deceased relatives and meeting the emperor of Heaven and all 374 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.359 this stuff. But as far as like the iconography itself, 375 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:49.119 it's it's not really evident what it all means. And 376 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.240 it's definitely the same with some of the Aztec stuff. 377 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.920 There's the Codex Borgia, which is, you know, super esoteric 378 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:00.680 kind of stuff, and there's no there's no text accompanying 379 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:04.200 it that describes what these images are, so some of 380 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:08.839 it is pretty speculative, but still it's it's clear that 381 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.480 it's still representing like a journey to the other world. 382 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:15.319 Yeah, the reason why I was asking is because I 383 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:17.039 do wonder about like I guess what I was trying 384 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.240 to get at, like symbology, Like just my opinion. I 385 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.759 do think sometimes the eclipse, which is why I use 386 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:24.480 it in a lot of my artwork or even behind 387 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:26.680 this now, I do think sometimes that might be a 388 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.400 symbolism that's used. I think that's more of a newer thing. 389 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.519 Maybe that's used a lot for maybe showing an NDE. 390 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.079 So that's why I was like wondering if maybe there's 391 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:38.480 like something common that you've seen that might show up 392 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.000 that you've noticed like, oh, that's weird. I saw something 393 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.480 like that in art that was depicting an NDE before. 394 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:48.799 Yeah, there's not well in art actually, in the Mayan 395 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:51.680 case there, the soul of the dead is also associated 396 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:55.599 with the phases of Venus and in the sense of 397 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:58.079 like it's dying and being reborn, and then also with 398 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:01.000 a jaguar which is like starts out as a baby 399 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.960 and then grows, and the jaguar is also associated with venus, 400 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.319 and so yeah, as far as like there's a lot 401 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:09.720