WEBVTT 1 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:20.280 Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trib Cast for 2 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:24.920 March twenty fourth. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff, just back from a 3 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.839 week long vacation, thrilled to be here, starting back with 4 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:33.280 a tribe cast, as I always dreamed would be the case. 5 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:36.479 I am not joined by Matthew Watkins this week. He 6 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:41.520 is at a board meeting, or like a board meeting, probably, 7 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:44.439 which is a joke that's better in writing, I'm realizing 8 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:46.119 as I say it out loud. But that's all right. 9 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:50.280 We're trying our best here. I am joined in studio 10 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:53.840 by my colleague on the politics team, Alejandro Serrano. 11 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:55.439 Howdy, what did I miss. 12 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:55.840 While I was gone? 13 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:56.520 Nothing? 14 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:02.320 Absolutely nothing, quiet week in Texas News, and joined on 15 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:07.120 zoom by the Tribune Star Investigative reporter Lomi Kreole. 16 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:08.319 Thanks for being here. 17 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:11.040 Star Wow. Eleanor. 18 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:11.400 Thanks. 19 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:12.640 I'll try to live up to it. 20 00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:18.079 Yes, I'm promoting you up to Star investigative reporter. Today 21 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:19.920 we are going to be talking about an issue that 22 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.400 has really dominated the headlines in recent weeks here in Texas, 23 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:27.000 I mean nationally, but especially in Texas, which is the 24 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.879 state and status of ice detentions as of last month, 25 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.760 almost twenty thousand people were detained in ICE facilities here 26 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:37.920 in Texas, more than in any other state. We have 27 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.040 the largest ice detention center, Camp East Montana, a sprawling 28 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.000 tent city on the edge of Fort Bliss in El Paso, 29 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:46.799 which is being seen as a model for the Trump 30 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:52.280 administration's broader immigration detention plans. We've also seen a really 31 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.480 staggering number of deaths in ice custody here in Texas 32 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:00.560 and nationally. Last year, in twenty twenty five, there were 33 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:03.879 thirty two people who died in ice custody, surpassing the 34 00:02:03.959 --> 00:02:07.879 previous high from two thousand and five of twenty According 35 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:11.080 to federal data, nearly a quarter of last year's deaths 36 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:15.080 occurred in Texas, and federal data shows that most current 37 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:19.280 ICE attainees are not accused of crimes beyond civil immigration offenses. 38 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:23.680 This is something let me, you have been reporting on extensively, 39 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:27.080 certainly not a new area of reporting for you. You 40 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:32.120 were deeply involved in reporting on immigration enforcement during the 41 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.120 first Trump administration as well as during the Biden administration 42 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:39.039 and allhandro you as well have been covering this lo 43 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:40.360 I mean, maybe you can just sort of start and 44 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:42.639 give us sort of the lay of the land in 45 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.879 terms of you know, why we're seeing this huge surge 46 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:51.000 in you know, this push to detain so many undocumented immigrants. 47 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:57.000 Yeah, So, I mean it's not as surprise, right, Like, 48 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:02.800 this is what President Trump and pained on. That was 49 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:07.879 one of his main platforms, and his administration sees it 50 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:08.680 as a mandate. 51 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:09.280 Right. 52 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:16.280 His top advisor, Stephen Miller, has pushed to arrest three. 53 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:19.159 Thousand undocumented immigrants a day. 54 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.520 And I think it's important to understand that this is 55 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:27.080 actually much harder than it sounds. You know, typically in 56 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:32.599 the past administrations which sort of arrest immigrants when they 57 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.639 cross pass with the criminal justice system. But in order 58 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:38.039 to reach that three thousand number, you really have to 59 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:42.360 go much broader than that, which is why we're seeing 60 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:48.120 some of these efforts like sharing text information from immigrants 61 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.319 with ICE, right. And so, I mean that's what the 62 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:53.560 administration has. 63 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:54.560 Seen as its mandate. 64 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:58.879 And I think now after some of these actions, particularly 65 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:04.000 in Minneapolis, it seems like there might be some doubt 66 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:05.680 about are they going too far? 67 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:09.840 And I mean you mentioned sort of sharing tax information. 68 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:11.919 We're also seeing I mean we're recording this on Monday, 69 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:14.719 so this news was breaking this morning. By the time 70 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:17.600 this air is on Tuesday, it may have evolved beyond this. 71 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.480 But you know, we're seeing ICE agents at airports. We're 72 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.120 seeing ICE agents showing up at places where previously maybe 73 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:27.920 they were not. I mean I started this by saying that, 74 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.600 you know, most current detainees are not accused of crimes 75 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.759 beyond civil immigration offenses. Can you sort of explain how 76 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:36.680 much of a departure that is from before when it 77 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:40.639 was maybe more like if you're facing additional criminal charges, 78 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:42.879 will make efforts to detain and deport you. 79 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.759 Yeah, I mean that Bomber administration actually deported more people 80 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.600 than the first ROUNP administration. 81 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:54.920 I mean, you know, I think in general. 82 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:59.920 What previously happened is that when there was any interaction 83 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:04.160 with the criminal justice system, you would you know, be 84 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:09.879 targeted for deportation or if you had already a removal order. 85 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:11.879 But what we're seeing. 86 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.160 Right now is the Trump administration is, for example, reevaluating 87 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:20.199 whether refugees who are legally vetted and have a status 88 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:24.160 in the United States whether they should be deported. So 89 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:30.120 it is very much a departure from both Republican and 90 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:31.800 democratic administrations. 91 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:33.560 What the expanse of it. 92 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.959 In order to reach that number that Stephen Miller has 93 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:40.399 been pushing, you cannot just do sort of the typical 94 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:45.319 going after criminal immigrants. 95 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:46.360 You know, you know way in here, I think when 96 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:48.920 one thing that kind of I guess Didlumi's point. It's 97 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.120 like it just seems like now more than certainly pass administrations, 98 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:56.279 like immigration enforcement has gotten really random, and there's like 99 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:59.480 this certain element to it that, like any cop can really. 100 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:01.560 Just help bikes, like shoes to help them. 101 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.680 And obviously there's some departments in Texas that are more 102 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:06.160 eager to do that. And I think that's kind of 103 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:08.560 like the outsized role of Texas has played for years 104 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:12.240 now because our leader state leaders are politically marching in 105 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:15.560 lockstep with Trump, so we end up helping the administration 106 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:16.279 a lot more. 107 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:19.439 And I mean a big reason I think, in at 108 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.120 least in our sort of collective imaginations, that Texas plays 109 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:24.680 such a huge role in all of this is that 110 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.519 we have the longest stretch of border in the country. 111 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:29.720 But all hundred things have really changed at the border 112 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:31.079 right in recent Yeah. 113 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.160 No, it's totally quiet. I mean, I think perhaps changed 114 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:35.879 too much. I was just working on a story a 115 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.720 couple of weeks ago and interviewing people down in the valley, 116 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:44.079 the Rio Grande Valley and congressional candidate by Pulito and Dejano. 117 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.160 Star's telling me that, you know, he keeps hearing from 118 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:49.959 people that like bridge traffic is down because Mexican tourists 119 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:52.079 don't want to come. That's like really common in border communities, 120 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:53.879 you know, the cross traffic like I'm going to go 121 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:54.759 to Walmart and like. 122 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:56.480 Americans go have lunch or whatever. 123 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.079 He said, people are not crossing as much in that 124 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:03.240 effects city budgets because they collect tolls from that also retail, 125 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:06.720 he said, it's down, And I think that is also 126 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:09.000 like it's almost like goding, like too quiet, because when 127 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:11.040 in legal immigration has tanked, but now it's also like 128 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:12.839 everything else is tanking. 129 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:14.160 And I think that's what we're hearing. 130 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:18.639 And also obviously like the enforcement element effects communities right, 131 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:23.480 like we're hearing from you know, business owners who are 132 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:25.680 not seeing their employee show up because they're scared, or 133 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:27.839 projects are not getting done. 134 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:28.199 What have you. 135 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:32.519 Yeah, let's talk more about the let me do something dad. 136 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:35.800 Yeah, I just want to say, you know, Jacob Monty 137 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:39.399 is actually a huge immigration lawyer in Houston. He was 138 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:45.000 on the Trump administration's first like border security Council. 139 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:46.879 He posted something. 140 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:48.480 The other day that you know, they do kind of 141 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:54.319 these free legal clinics, and people were not showing up 142 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:58.720 to these free it's like free legal advice from this 143 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.959 guy who was, you know, on Trump's. 144 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:03.439 Advisory council in the first administration. 145 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:08.600 And people are not coming because they are so fearful 146 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:13.639 that any interaction that aligns them with like possibly being 147 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:17.720 undocumented will result in enforcement. So, just to Alejandra's point, 148 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:24.279 this is having sort of really dramatic consequences beyond what 149 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:25.240 we've seen before. 150 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.639 I think it's also interesting in Texas because it hasn't 151 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.039 happened with a lot of the backlash and fanfare is 152 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:35.320 a poor word for that, but kind of like Chicago, 153 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:39.840 like Los Angeles, like Minnesota. But it's like ice is 154 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:41.720 really active here all the same. 155 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.960 Yeah, absolutely, I think that it's we have not seen 156 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.360 that same backlash in Texas. But at the same time, 157 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:51.000 as you both have reported on, I mean, this really 158 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:53.960 is the epicenter and sort of the blueprint in a 159 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:55.320 lot of ways for a lot of what's going to 160 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:59.919 happen in the rest of the country and as love 161 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:01.559 one of your sources hed in one of your stories. 162 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:04.159 Like in many for many people, it's like the beginning, middle, 163 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:06.600 and end of their immigration journeys. You know, maybe they 164 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:11.080 originally crossed in Texas, went on somewhere else, started a life, 165 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.519 lived maybe here for a long time, and now we're 166 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:18.399 ending up back in the detention center in Texas. Let me, 167 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.480 let's talk about these detention camps or you know, these 168 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:24.960 sort of detention facilities. I mean, we can start by 169 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.000 talking about the ElGamal family, which is a mother and 170 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:30.639 five children who have been stuck at the Dilly detention 171 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:35.639 facility outside San Antonio for about nine months, which advocates 172 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:38.360 and lawyers believe is longer than any other family. 173 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:40.799 Tell us a little bit about who. 174 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:42.360 They are, how they ended up there, and what their 175 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:43.279 experience has been. 176 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.720 Yeah, so, I guess I first just quickly wanted to 177 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:53.240 step back. Like so, family detention is long controversial, right, 178 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:56.759 and it actually started just north of Austin in Hodow, 179 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.399 which was the first family detentions are in. 180 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:02.519 The country, and it was shut down in two. 181 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:05.960 Thousand and nine after multiple problems, and then the Obama 182 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:11.519 administration opened Dilly in twenty fourteen with the intention that 183 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:15.360 it would be more humane, but it's also been plagued 184 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:19.240 with legal problems, and the Biden administration shut it and 185 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:22.639 then the Trump administration opened it again. So this is 186 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:29.000 you know, the concept of family detention is really controversial, 187 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.360 and medical experts say. 188 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:33.960 That this is not good for kids. 189 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:38.960 Right, So the Algamol family has been detained there for 190 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.200 nine months. There the father was accused of an anti 191 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:50.000 Semitic attack in Colorado, but the family has maintained that 192 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.480 they had no knowledge of that. They have not importantly 193 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:58.600 been charged with any crimes, but they've been detained at 194 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:03.080 Dilly ever since. And that includes the youngest kids, who 195 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.720 are five year old twins. So what they have described 196 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:13.159 in kind of pretty heartbreaking letters and drawings is just 197 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:18.279 I mean, there are you know, essentially in a prison. 198 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:25.080 The lights are on at all hours, the food is 199 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:29.080 you know, lacking. One of the kids described losing about 200 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:35.200 twenty pounds. There's almost no schooling. And this is a 201 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.279 little bit of a departure because the eldest girl in 202 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.279 this family actually was recognized as one of the best 203 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:45.519 and brightest students in the state of Colorado. She wanted 204 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:50.399 to go to Harvard Medical School, and you know, the 205 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.960 medical care is lacking. The mom has a history of cancer, 206 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:58.000 she's not been able to see a doctor. One of 207 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:01.399 the kids has these has not been able. 208 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:02.000 To see a dentist. 209 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:10.000 But overwhelmingly, what they just describe is being detained with 210 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:11.360 no end. 211 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.159 And I think what stood out. 212 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:18.240 Me from the conversation with the lawyer and from seeing 213 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:23.600 kind of their their notes and their their pictures is 214 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:27.000 the lawyer said, every day I worry that I'm going 215 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:28.879 to get a call that one of these kids has 216 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:32.919 has self harmed, because in fact, that did happen to 217 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:37.679 one of their friends who tried to you know, tried 218 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:41.159 to kill herself, but then she was deported. So I think, 219 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:45.960 you know, this is these are diary straits here for 220 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:47.360 for these kids. 221 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.639 And what is sort of like the end game for 222 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:53.480 I'm saying, like the Trump administration's goal in many cases 223 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.399 is to get people to deport, like self deport or 224 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.240 agree to leave the country. You know, why aren't they 225 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:03.559 doing that? And what sort of is what is what 226 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:05.679 does an alternative resolution look like? 227 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:11.120 Yeah, I mean it's not actually despite what we all 228 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.279 I think maybe want to think, it's not that easy 229 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:19.679 to just support people right there, there's you have to coordinate. 230 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:22.240 With countries that have to accept people back. 231 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.440 People also have legal rights to seek asylum to undergo 232 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:31.639 their deportation proceedings. So in this case, you know, the 233 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:37.519 families from Egypt, they have an active asylum claim. The 234 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:43.759 Trump administration cannot simply deport them while they're undergoing those proceedings, 235 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:47.799 and so what they're doing is detaining them. They could 236 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.799 release them on a bond. In this case, the family 237 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:56.120 has a very strong support system in Colorado Springs that 238 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.840 has raised money for them, that have argued that they 239 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:03.320 would vouch for them. So you know that is the alternative, 240 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.559 but the Trump administration is choosing not. 241 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:08.600 To do that, right. I mean, I think this is 242 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:10.399 I mean the photos. 243 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:13.600 I really recommend people checking out Lem's story online because 244 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:16.279 you obtained these like drawings that the children and letters 245 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.240 that the children are writing, and I think it's very 246 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:22.720 like you said, family detention is not sort of our 247 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.519 like typical protocol necessarily across the board. 248 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:28.080 And seeing this. 249 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:31.399 The family, these children who are sort of just stuck 250 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:35.000 there waiting for this to resolve itself, or waiting for 251 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.799 their legal process to resolve. 252 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:37.879 Is pretty shocking. 253 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:41.879 Like, these are sort of the cases I think that 254 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:45.440 have stood out of you know, these high profile moments, 255 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:50.480 particularly involving children, where sort of national attention centers on them. 256 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.639 So Dilly sort of came into the national consciousness, I 257 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.320 think most recently after photographs of five year old Liam 258 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.000 Conheo Ramos. 259 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:02.759 Sort of went viral. This like little five. 260 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:05.240 Year old kid who was detained in Minneapolis and sent 261 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.399 to Dilly. There was like a lot of public outcry 262 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:11.480 around that, a lot of attention. But there's a lot 263 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:13.919 of cases that never get that attention, right, they're just 264 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.919 families in Dilly that don't you know, sort of capture 265 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.279 our national imagination. Can you tell us a little bit 266 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:21.679 more about like what are some of the cases you've 267 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:25.960 heard about, both like I think the concerning medical concerns 268 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:27.799 things like that, but also just sort of the standard 269 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:30.000 like what life is like in Dillian. 270 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:30.559 Who's there? 271 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.480 Yeah, well, you know, I think what's really different this 272 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:42.039 time around is that because they're all of no people 273 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:43.480 can cross the border. 274 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:43.759 Now. 275 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.960 These are generally families that have been detained from the 276 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.279 interior of the country, and many of them have lived here. 277 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:53.480 For a long time. 278 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.440 So that is in and of itself a significant difference 279 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:02.399 from any previous administration because because typically Dailly was used 280 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.919 to how you know, people who were recent border crossers, 281 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.639 So that is a huge change. 282 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.360 And then what we're also seeing is just this ramping. 283 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:20.720 Up of detention that is overwhelming capacity. In the case 284 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.919 of Dalli, that has meant, you know, there was a 285 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:28.559 child with leukemia, for example, who was only released after 286 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:32.519 help from Columbia Law School and multiple habeas petitions, So 287 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.879 you know, there are people and children there with severe 288 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:41.559 medical conditions that are not they say, getting the care 289 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.480 that they need. The Courcivic, which is a private prison company, 290 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:50.399 maintains that they're doing, you know, everything possible and giving 291 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.879 the best healthcare, but that is not what we're here 292 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:55.720 from the families there. 293 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:01.240 Yeah, I would mention another case been reported on publicly 294 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.400 where a two month old boy was detained for three weeks. 295 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.640 He had bronchitis, he was unresponsive, he'd been hospitalized in 296 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.359 the past couple of days. And then you know, even 297 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:16.160 as Congressman Joaquin Castro from San Antonio was sort of 298 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.440 took up his case and was pushing it, raised a 299 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.240 lot of awareness about it. The young boy and his 300 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.279 family were suddenly deported. I mean, these cases are resolving 301 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.119 or sometimes are like moving faster even than the public 302 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.400 attention can grab them. 303 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.759 It seems like, Yeah, I mean I. 304 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.440 Think and I think that you're going to go to 305 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:36.480 al Hondro to speak about another. 306 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:37.200 Case here shortly. 307 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.119 But I mean I think that the cases that are 308 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.960 getting publicity are so few and far between, right like 309 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.519 the majority. For example, this Colombian thirteen year old girl 310 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:53.680 who try to harm herself at daily was deported back 311 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.920 to Colombia. She had grown up here her entire life. 312 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.319 So yeah, I mean a lot most of these cases 313 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:02.720 are not getting public attention. 314 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:04.400 Yeah. 315 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:08.359 One other thing that has sort of been reported on 316 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.000 is like the challenges that detainees are facing and just 317 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.519 getting their basic medical care. Especially many are now dealing 318 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.119 with new medical issues sort of stemming from their detention. 319 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:19.519 Can you just talk a little bit lower me about 320 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:21.960 what that, what those challenges are and some of these 321 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.880 issues around like are we paying government, are we paying 322 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:26.640 our medical providers? 323 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:27.400 What's going on there? 324 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.720 Yeah? So, I mean, look, I don't think he is 325 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:32.200 a secret. 326 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:35.319 Medical care and ice, just like medical care and jails 327 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:39.359 and prisons, has never been great. The difference now is 328 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.400 both like the number of people that are being detained, 329 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:48.319 which is overwhelming capacity. In addition, there is a bureaucratic 330 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:53.119 change that the Trump administration made in terms of how 331 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:58.720 they pay specialty medical providers that is taking some time 332 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:03.480 to institute and means that basically since October, a lot 333 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:08.640 of the specialty medical providers have not been paid. In addition, 334 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.640 we have seen reports of a lot of ICE healthcore 335 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:19.480 or medical providers who work with ICE are really concerned 336 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:24.559 reportedly that they may be violating their hypocritic oath and 337 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.160 are actually leaving the agency intros and because they feel 338 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:32.839 that maybe they can't give the best medical care under 339 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:34.119 these circumstances. 340 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.279 And then, I mean sort of it sounds like through 341 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.440 a combination of factors, some of which is sort of 342 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:43.400 the mental health issues you talked about, others sort of 343 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:49.200 the inadequate training of ICE officials inside these facilities, and 344 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:52.880 then also the inadequate medical care, we have seen this 345 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:58.200 unprecedented surge in deaths within these ICE attention facilities all hundred. 346 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:02.319 Maybe you can talk about the of Mohammad Nazir Paktiawal 347 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.640 who died in ICE custody here in Texas. 348 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:10.599 Yeah, he was an Afghan man, forty one year old 349 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:15.759 man who had helped the American military in Afghanistan starting 350 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.759 two thousand and five, and then when the US withdrew 351 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:24.799 in twenty twenty one, he came with like a special 352 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:27.079 program that the Biden administration had started. So he comes 353 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.279 to Texas, relocates, and a couple of weeks ago, he 354 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.039 was taking his kids to school and got pulled over 355 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.880 by unmarked agents and they detayed him and told him 356 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.559 he was in the country illegally, presumably, and within a 357 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.039 day he died. And it's not clear what happened. He 358 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.119 called his brother late at night and said he wasn't 359 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:50.839 feeling well, and then ICE called the family and said 360 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:52.920 that they were taking him to a hospital, and then 361 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:55.960 within hours he was dead. His family is obviously pretty 362 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.880 pretty devastated, but also confused, and a group that helps 363 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.720 a lot of these veterans called AFGHANIVAC, it's really trying 364 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:06.880 to raise awareness to get answers, but so far there 365 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:11.000 have been very little information from DHS or ICE. They 366 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:16.559 accused him of not having any provided his military background. 367 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.000 Afghanivak hause his certificate. 368 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.279 And the medical examiner has not yet ruled on his 369 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:26.119 matter of death, so it's not clear yet, but that 370 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:28.960 is going to be an important I guess the termination 371 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:30.279 once it's done. 372 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.200 And we've seen this on a couple of other cases 373 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.640 right where there's sort of this disagreement maybe between the 374 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:41.960 initial reports and then what the medical examiner ultimately concludes. 375 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:43.440 I know, let me. 376 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:47.759 You wrote about the case of Haraldo Luna's compos who 377 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:51.880 died at Camp East, Montana. He was originally his death 378 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.799 was originally attributed to medical distress, but the medical examiner 379 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.240 ruled it a homicide, saying he was suffocated and became 380 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:01.279 unresponsive while being physically restricted by law enforcement. 381 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:03.160 I mean, what is sort. 382 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:08.480 Of the I mean, the the system in under which 383 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.920 these deaths are being scrutinized are are being looked at. 384 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.240 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know there's some oversight, 385 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.720 but I think it kind of seems like medical examiners 386 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.559 are playing an increasingly more important role when there is 387 00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:27.160 a suspicious death. I think the case you just highlighted 388 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:31.279 that Lowemi wrote about is like just like underscorees to 389 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:33.880 the point of why forensic pathology is important. Like across 390 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:36.079 the board, right, Like, it's just it's kind of like 391 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.680 a factual establishment of facts, right, you look at a body, 392 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:44.119 you determine what happened. As far as like internal investigations, 393 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.160 I don't think we've seen any internal repercussions in DHS 394 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.559 or ICE for any of the uses of force. We 395 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.680 haven't even talked about the Americans who have been killed 396 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:52.839 as part of this crackdown. 397 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:56.160 Yeah, well, I mean, what's your sense of sort of 398 00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:00.359 how these deaths are being scrutinized and being you know, 399 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:05.480 looked at as a sign of whether anything needs to change. 400 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.400 Yeah, I mean, I think what Alejandro said is right 401 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:12.279