1 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trib Cast for 2 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,920 March twenty fourth. I'm Eleanor Klibanoff, just back from a 3 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,839 week long vacation, thrilled to be here, starting back with 4 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,280 a tribe cast, as I always dreamed would be the case. 5 00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:36,479 I am not joined by Matthew Watkins this week. He 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,520 is at a board meeting, or like a board meeting, probably, 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,439 which is a joke that's better in writing, I'm realizing 8 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,119 as I say it out loud. But that's all right. 9 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,280 We're trying our best here. I am joined in studio 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,840 by my colleague on the politics team, Alejandro Serrano. 11 00:00:54,119 --> 00:00:55,439 Speaker 2: Howdy, what did I miss. 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 3: While I was gone? 13 00:00:56,159 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: Nothing? 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Absolutely nothing, quiet week in Texas News, and joined on 15 00:01:02,479 --> 00:01:07,120 zoom by the Tribune Star Investigative reporter Lomi Kreole. 16 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 3: Thanks for being here. 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 4: Star Wow. Eleanor. 18 00:01:11,159 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 2: Thanks. 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 4: I'll try to live up to it. 20 00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:18,079 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm promoting you up to Star investigative reporter. Today 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:19,920 we are going to be talking about an issue that 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,400 has really dominated the headlines in recent weeks here in Texas, 23 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:27,000 I mean nationally, but especially in Texas, which is the 24 00:01:27,079 --> 00:01:30,879 state and status of ice detentions as of last month, 25 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,760 almost twenty thousand people were detained in ICE facilities here 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,920 in Texas, more than in any other state. We have 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,040 the largest ice detention center, Camp East Montana, a sprawling 28 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,000 tent city on the edge of Fort Bliss in El Paso, 29 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:46,799 which is being seen as a model for the Trump 30 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:52,280 administration's broader immigration detention plans. We've also seen a really 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,480 staggering number of deaths in ice custody here in Texas 32 00:01:56,519 --> 00:02:00,560 and nationally. Last year, in twenty twenty five, there were 33 00:02:00,599 --> 00:02:03,879 thirty two people who died in ice custody, surpassing the 34 00:02:03,959 --> 00:02:07,879 previous high from two thousand and five of twenty According 35 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:11,080 to federal data, nearly a quarter of last year's deaths 36 00:02:11,159 --> 00:02:15,080 occurred in Texas, and federal data shows that most current 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,280 ICE attainees are not accused of crimes beyond civil immigration offenses. 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,680 This is something let me, you have been reporting on extensively, 39 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:27,080 certainly not a new area of reporting for you. You 40 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:32,120 were deeply involved in reporting on immigration enforcement during the 41 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,120 first Trump administration as well as during the Biden administration 42 00:02:35,439 --> 00:02:39,039 and allhandro you as well have been covering this lo 43 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:40,360 I mean, maybe you can just sort of start and 44 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,639 give us sort of the lay of the land in 45 00:02:42,719 --> 00:02:45,879 terms of you know, why we're seeing this huge surge 46 00:02:46,039 --> 00:02:51,000 in you know, this push to detain so many undocumented immigrants. 47 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, So, I mean it's not as surprise, right, Like, 48 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:02,800 this is what President Trump and pained on. That was 49 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,879 one of his main platforms, and his administration sees it 50 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:08,680 as a mandate. 51 00:03:09,039 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 4: Right. 52 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 5: His top advisor, Stephen Miller, has pushed to arrest three. 53 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:19,159 Speaker 4: Thousand undocumented immigrants a day. 54 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 5: And I think it's important to understand that this is 55 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,080 actually much harder than it sounds. You know, typically in 56 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,599 the past administrations which sort of arrest immigrants when they 57 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,639 cross pass with the criminal justice system. But in order 58 00:03:35,719 --> 00:03:38,039 to reach that three thousand number, you really have to 59 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,360 go much broader than that, which is why we're seeing 60 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:48,120 some of these efforts like sharing text information from immigrants 61 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,319 with ICE, right. And so, I mean that's what the 62 00:03:52,319 --> 00:03:53,560 administration has. 63 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 4: Seen as its mandate. 64 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,879 Speaker 5: And I think now after some of these actions, particularly 65 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:04,000 in Minneapolis, it seems like there might be some doubt 66 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,680 about are they going too far? 67 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: And I mean you mentioned sort of sharing tax information. 68 00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:11,919 We're also seeing I mean we're recording this on Monday, 69 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,719 so this news was breaking this morning. By the time 70 00:04:14,719 --> 00:04:17,600 this air is on Tuesday, it may have evolved beyond this. 71 00:04:17,759 --> 00:04:20,480 But you know, we're seeing ICE agents at airports. We're 72 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,120 seeing ICE agents showing up at places where previously maybe 73 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,920 they were not. I mean I started this by saying that, 74 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:30,600 you know, most current detainees are not accused of crimes 75 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,759 beyond civil immigration offenses. Can you sort of explain how 76 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,680 much of a departure that is from before when it 77 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,639 was maybe more like if you're facing additional criminal charges, 78 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,879 will make efforts to detain and deport you. 79 00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:48,759 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that Bomber administration actually deported more people 80 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,600 than the first ROUNP administration. 81 00:04:51,639 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I think in general. 82 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 5: What previously happened is that when there was any interaction 83 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,160 with the criminal justice system, you would you know, be 84 00:05:05,319 --> 00:05:09,879 targeted for deportation or if you had already a removal order. 85 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:11,879 Speaker 4: But what we're seeing. 86 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 5: Right now is the Trump administration is, for example, reevaluating 87 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:20,199 whether refugees who are legally vetted and have a status 88 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,160 in the United States whether they should be deported. So 89 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:30,120 it is very much a departure from both Republican and 90 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:31,800 democratic administrations. 91 00:05:31,879 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 4: What the expanse of it. 92 00:05:33,639 --> 00:05:36,959 Speaker 5: In order to reach that number that Stephen Miller has 93 00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:40,399 been pushing, you cannot just do sort of the typical 94 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,319 going after criminal immigrants. 95 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 6: You know, you know way in here, I think when 96 00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:48,920 one thing that kind of I guess Didlumi's point. It's 97 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,120 like it just seems like now more than certainly pass administrations, 98 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,279 like immigration enforcement has gotten really random, and there's like 99 00:05:56,319 --> 00:05:59,480 this certain element to it that, like any cop can really. 100 00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: Just help bikes, like shoes to help them. 101 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 6: And obviously there's some departments in Texas that are more 102 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,160 eager to do that. And I think that's kind of 103 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:08,560 like the outsized role of Texas has played for years 104 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,240 now because our leader state leaders are politically marching in 105 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,560 lockstep with Trump, so we end up helping the administration 106 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:16,279 a lot more. 107 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,439 Speaker 1: And I mean a big reason I think, in at 108 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:23,120 least in our sort of collective imaginations, that Texas plays 109 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:24,680 such a huge role in all of this is that 110 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,519 we have the longest stretch of border in the country. 111 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,720 But all hundred things have really changed at the border 112 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,079 right in recent Yeah. 113 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 6: No, it's totally quiet. I mean, I think perhaps changed 114 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:35,879 too much. I was just working on a story a 115 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,720 couple of weeks ago and interviewing people down in the valley, 116 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:44,079 the Rio Grande Valley and congressional candidate by Pulito and Dejano. 117 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:47,160 Star's telling me that, you know, he keeps hearing from 118 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:49,959 people that like bridge traffic is down because Mexican tourists 119 00:06:49,959 --> 00:06:52,079 don't want to come. That's like really common in border communities, 120 00:06:52,079 --> 00:06:53,879 you know, the cross traffic like I'm going to go 121 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:54,759 to Walmart and like. 122 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: Americans go have lunch or whatever. 123 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,079 Speaker 6: He said, people are not crossing as much in that 124 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,240 effects city budgets because they collect tolls from that also retail, 125 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,720 he said, it's down, And I think that is also 126 00:07:06,759 --> 00:07:09,000 like it's almost like goding, like too quiet, because when 127 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,040 in legal immigration has tanked, but now it's also like 128 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:12,839 everything else is tanking. 129 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: And I think that's what we're hearing. 130 00:07:14,639 --> 00:07:18,639 Speaker 6: And also obviously like the enforcement element effects communities right, 131 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,480 like we're hearing from you know, business owners who are 132 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,680 not seeing their employee show up because they're scared, or 133 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:27,839 projects are not getting done. 134 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:28,199 Speaker 2: What have you. 135 00:07:28,959 --> 00:07:32,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk more about the let me do something dad. 136 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, I just want to say, you know, Jacob Monty 137 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,399 is actually a huge immigration lawyer in Houston. He was 138 00:07:39,519 --> 00:07:45,000 on the Trump administration's first like border security Council. 139 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:46,879 Speaker 4: He posted something. 140 00:07:46,639 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 5: The other day that you know, they do kind of 141 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:54,319 these free legal clinics, and people were not showing up 142 00:07:54,879 --> 00:07:58,720 to these free it's like free legal advice from this 143 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,959 guy who was, you know, on Trump's. 144 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:03,439 Speaker 4: Advisory council in the first administration. 145 00:08:04,439 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 5: And people are not coming because they are so fearful 146 00:08:08,879 --> 00:08:13,639 that any interaction that aligns them with like possibly being 147 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,720 undocumented will result in enforcement. So, just to Alejandra's point, 148 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:24,279 this is having sort of really dramatic consequences beyond what 149 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:25,240 we've seen before. 150 00:08:25,279 --> 00:08:28,639 Speaker 6: I think it's also interesting in Texas because it hasn't 151 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,039 happened with a lot of the backlash and fanfare is 152 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,320 a poor word for that, but kind of like Chicago, 153 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,840 like Los Angeles, like Minnesota. But it's like ice is 154 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:41,720 really active here all the same. 155 00:08:42,279 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think that it's we have not seen 156 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,360 that same backlash in Texas. But at the same time, 157 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:51,000 as you both have reported on, I mean, this really 158 00:08:51,039 --> 00:08:53,960 is the epicenter and sort of the blueprint in a 159 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,320 lot of ways for a lot of what's going to 160 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,919 happen in the rest of the country and as love 161 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,559 one of your sources hed in one of your stories. 162 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,159 Like in many for many people, it's like the beginning, middle, 163 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,600 and end of their immigration journeys. You know, maybe they 164 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,080 originally crossed in Texas, went on somewhere else, started a life, 165 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,519 lived maybe here for a long time, and now we're 166 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,399 ending up back in the detention center in Texas. Let me, 167 00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:21,480 let's talk about these detention camps or you know, these 168 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,960 sort of detention facilities. I mean, we can start by 169 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,000 talking about the ElGamal family, which is a mother and 170 00:09:28,039 --> 00:09:30,639 five children who have been stuck at the Dilly detention 171 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,639 facility outside San Antonio for about nine months, which advocates 172 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:38,360 and lawyers believe is longer than any other family. 173 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,799 Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about who. 174 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: They are, how they ended up there, and what their 175 00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:43,279 experience has been. 176 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I guess I first just quickly wanted to 177 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:53,240 step back. Like so, family detention is long controversial, right, 178 00:09:53,279 --> 00:09:56,759 and it actually started just north of Austin in Hodow, 179 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,399 which was the first family detentions are in. 180 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,519 Speaker 4: The country, and it was shut down in two. 181 00:10:02,399 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 5: Thousand and nine after multiple problems, and then the Obama 182 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:11,519 administration opened Dilly in twenty fourteen with the intention that 183 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:15,360 it would be more humane, but it's also been plagued 184 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,240 with legal problems, and the Biden administration shut it and 185 00:10:19,279 --> 00:10:22,639 then the Trump administration opened it again. So this is 186 00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:29,000 you know, the concept of family detention is really controversial, 187 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,360 and medical experts say. 188 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 4: That this is not good for kids. 189 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 5: Right, So the Algamol family has been detained there for 190 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,200 nine months. There the father was accused of an anti 191 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:50,000 Semitic attack in Colorado, but the family has maintained that 192 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,480 they had no knowledge of that. They have not importantly 193 00:10:53,519 --> 00:10:58,600 been charged with any crimes, but they've been detained at 194 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:03,080 Dilly ever since. And that includes the youngest kids, who 195 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,720 are five year old twins. So what they have described 196 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,159 in kind of pretty heartbreaking letters and drawings is just 197 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,279 I mean, there are you know, essentially in a prison. 198 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:25,080 The lights are on at all hours, the food is 199 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,080 you know, lacking. One of the kids described losing about 200 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:35,200 twenty pounds. There's almost no schooling. And this is a 201 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,279 little bit of a departure because the eldest girl in 202 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,279 this family actually was recognized as one of the best 203 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,519 and brightest students in the state of Colorado. She wanted 204 00:11:45,519 --> 00:11:50,399 to go to Harvard Medical School, and you know, the 205 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,960 medical care is lacking. The mom has a history of cancer, 206 00:11:55,159 --> 00:11:58,000 she's not been able to see a doctor. One of 207 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:01,399 the kids has these has not been able. 208 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 4: To see a dentist. 209 00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 5: But overwhelmingly, what they just describe is being detained with 210 00:12:10,279 --> 00:12:11,360 no end. 211 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,159 Speaker 4: And I think what stood out. 212 00:12:14,159 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 5: Me from the conversation with the lawyer and from seeing 213 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,600 kind of their their notes and their their pictures is 214 00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:27,000 the lawyer said, every day I worry that I'm going 215 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,879 to get a call that one of these kids has 216 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,919 has self harmed, because in fact, that did happen to 217 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:37,679 one of their friends who tried to you know, tried 218 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,159 to kill herself, but then she was deported. So I think, 219 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,960 you know, this is these are diary straits here for 220 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:47,360 for these kids. 221 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,639 Speaker 1: And what is sort of like the end game for 222 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:53,480 I'm saying, like the Trump administration's goal in many cases 223 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,399 is to get people to deport, like self deport or 224 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,240 agree to leave the country. You know, why aren't they 225 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:03,559 doing that? And what sort of is what is what 226 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,679 does an alternative resolution look like? 227 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's not actually despite what we all 228 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,279 I think maybe want to think, it's not that easy 229 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,679 to just support people right there, there's you have to coordinate. 230 00:13:19,159 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 4: With countries that have to accept people back. 231 00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 5: People also have legal rights to seek asylum to undergo 232 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:31,639 their deportation proceedings. So in this case, you know, the 233 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:37,519 families from Egypt, they have an active asylum claim. The 234 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:43,759 Trump administration cannot simply deport them while they're undergoing those proceedings, 235 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:47,799 and so what they're doing is detaining them. They could 236 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,799 release them on a bond. In this case, the family 237 00:13:51,879 --> 00:13:56,120 has a very strong support system in Colorado Springs that 238 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:58,840 has raised money for them, that have argued that they 239 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,320 would vouch for them. So you know that is the alternative, 240 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:05,559 but the Trump administration is choosing not. 241 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 3: To do that, right. I mean, I think this is 242 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,399 I mean the photos. 243 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: I really recommend people checking out Lem's story online because 244 00:14:13,879 --> 00:14:16,279 you obtained these like drawings that the children and letters 245 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:18,240 that the children are writing, and I think it's very 246 00:14:20,679 --> 00:14:22,720 like you said, family detention is not sort of our 247 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,519 like typical protocol necessarily across the board. 248 00:14:27,159 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: And seeing this. 249 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,399 Speaker 1: The family, these children who are sort of just stuck 250 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:35,000 there waiting for this to resolve itself, or waiting for 251 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,799 their legal process to resolve. 252 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:37,879 Speaker 3: Is pretty shocking. 253 00:14:40,039 --> 00:14:41,879 Speaker 1: Like, these are sort of the cases I think that 254 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:45,440 have stood out of you know, these high profile moments, 255 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,480 particularly involving children, where sort of national attention centers on them. 256 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:54,639 So Dilly sort of came into the national consciousness, I 257 00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:58,320 think most recently after photographs of five year old Liam 258 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,000 Conheo Ramos. 259 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:02,759 Speaker 3: Sort of went viral. This like little five. 260 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: Year old kid who was detained in Minneapolis and sent 261 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:09,399 to Dilly. There was like a lot of public outcry 262 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:11,480 around that, a lot of attention. But there's a lot 263 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:13,919 of cases that never get that attention, right, they're just 264 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:16,919 families in Dilly that don't you know, sort of capture 265 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:19,279 our national imagination. Can you tell us a little bit 266 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,679 more about like what are some of the cases you've 267 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,960 heard about, both like I think the concerning medical concerns 268 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:27,799 things like that, but also just sort of the standard 269 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,000 like what life is like in Dillian. 270 00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:30,559 Speaker 3: Who's there? 271 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know, I think what's really different this 272 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:42,039 time around is that because they're all of no people 273 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:43,480 can cross the border. 274 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:43,759 Speaker 4: Now. 275 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 5: These are generally families that have been detained from the 276 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,279 interior of the country, and many of them have lived here. 277 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 4: For a long time. 278 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 5: So that is in and of itself a significant difference 279 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:02,399 from any previous administration because because typically Dailly was used 280 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,919 to how you know, people who were recent border crossers, 281 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,639 So that is a huge change. 282 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 4: And then what we're also seeing is just this ramping. 283 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 5: Up of detention that is overwhelming capacity. In the case 284 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,919 of Dalli, that has meant, you know, there was a 285 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:28,559 child with leukemia, for example, who was only released after 286 00:16:28,799 --> 00:16:32,519 help from Columbia Law School and multiple habeas petitions, So 287 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,879 you know, there are people and children there with severe 288 00:16:36,919 --> 00:16:41,559 medical conditions that are not they say, getting the care 289 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:45,480 that they need. The Courcivic, which is a private prison company, 290 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:50,399 maintains that they're doing, you know, everything possible and giving 291 00:16:50,559 --> 00:16:53,879 the best healthcare, but that is not what we're here 292 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:55,720 from the families there. 293 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would mention another case been reported on publicly 294 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,400 where a two month old boy was detained for three weeks. 295 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,640 He had bronchitis, he was unresponsive, he'd been hospitalized in 296 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,359 the past couple of days. And then you know, even 297 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:16,160 as Congressman Joaquin Castro from San Antonio was sort of 298 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,440 took up his case and was pushing it, raised a 299 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,240 lot of awareness about it. The young boy and his 300 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,279 family were suddenly deported. I mean, these cases are resolving 301 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,119 or sometimes are like moving faster even than the public 302 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,400 attention can grab them. 303 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,759 Speaker 3: It seems like, Yeah, I mean I. 304 00:17:31,799 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 5: Think and I think that you're going to go to 305 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,480 al Hondro to speak about another. 306 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 4: Case here shortly. 307 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 5: But I mean I think that the cases that are 308 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,960 getting publicity are so few and far between, right like 309 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:47,519 the majority. For example, this Colombian thirteen year old girl 310 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:53,680 who try to harm herself at daily was deported back 311 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,920 to Colombia. She had grown up here her entire life. 312 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,319 So yeah, I mean a lot most of these cases 313 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,720 are not getting public attention. 314 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 315 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: One other thing that has sort of been reported on 316 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:11,000 is like the challenges that detainees are facing and just 317 00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:14,519 getting their basic medical care. Especially many are now dealing 318 00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:17,119 with new medical issues sort of stemming from their detention. 319 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:19,519 Can you just talk a little bit lower me about 320 00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:21,960 what that, what those challenges are and some of these 321 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,880 issues around like are we paying government, are we paying 322 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:26,640 our medical providers? 323 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 3: What's going on there? 324 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 4: Yeah? So, I mean, look, I don't think he is 325 00:18:31,759 --> 00:18:32,200 a secret. 326 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,319 Speaker 5: Medical care and ice, just like medical care and jails 327 00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:39,359 and prisons, has never been great. The difference now is 328 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,400 both like the number of people that are being detained, 329 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:48,319 which is overwhelming capacity. In addition, there is a bureaucratic 330 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,119 change that the Trump administration made in terms of how 331 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:58,720 they pay specialty medical providers that is taking some time 332 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,480 to institute and means that basically since October, a lot 333 00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:08,640 of the specialty medical providers have not been paid. In addition, 334 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,640 we have seen reports of a lot of ICE healthcore 335 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,480 or medical providers who work with ICE are really concerned 336 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,559 reportedly that they may be violating their hypocritic oath and 337 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,160 are actually leaving the agency intros and because they feel 338 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,839 that maybe they can't give the best medical care under 339 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,119 these circumstances. 340 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,279 Speaker 1: And then, I mean sort of it sounds like through 341 00:19:38,279 --> 00:19:40,440 a combination of factors, some of which is sort of 342 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,400 the mental health issues you talked about, others sort of 343 00:19:44,519 --> 00:19:49,200 the inadequate training of ICE officials inside these facilities, and 344 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,880 then also the inadequate medical care, we have seen this 345 00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:58,200 unprecedented surge in deaths within these ICE attention facilities all hundred. 346 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,319 Maybe you can talk about the of Mohammad Nazir Paktiawal 347 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,640 who died in ICE custody here in Texas. 348 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,599 Speaker 6: Yeah, he was an Afghan man, forty one year old 349 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:15,759 man who had helped the American military in Afghanistan starting 350 00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:18,759 two thousand and five, and then when the US withdrew 351 00:20:18,759 --> 00:20:24,799 in twenty twenty one, he came with like a special 352 00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:27,079 program that the Biden administration had started. So he comes 353 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,279 to Texas, relocates, and a couple of weeks ago, he 354 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,039 was taking his kids to school and got pulled over 355 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:37,880 by unmarked agents and they detayed him and told him 356 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,559 he was in the country illegally, presumably, and within a 357 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,039 day he died. And it's not clear what happened. He 358 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,119 called his brother late at night and said he wasn't 359 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,839 feeling well, and then ICE called the family and said 360 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,920 that they were taking him to a hospital, and then 361 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,960 within hours he was dead. His family is obviously pretty 362 00:20:56,279 --> 00:20:59,880 pretty devastated, but also confused, and a group that helps 363 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:03,720 a lot of these veterans called AFGHANIVAC, it's really trying 364 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:06,880 to raise awareness to get answers, but so far there 365 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,000 have been very little information from DHS or ICE. They 366 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,559 accused him of not having any provided his military background. 367 00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: Afghanivak hause his certificate. 368 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:23,279 Speaker 6: And the medical examiner has not yet ruled on his 369 00:21:23,839 --> 00:21:26,119 matter of death, so it's not clear yet, but that 370 00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:28,960 is going to be an important I guess the termination 371 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,279 once it's done. 372 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: And we've seen this on a couple of other cases 373 00:21:34,279 --> 00:21:36,640 right where there's sort of this disagreement maybe between the 374 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,960 initial reports and then what the medical examiner ultimately concludes. 375 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 3: I know, let me. 376 00:21:43,519 --> 00:21:47,759 Speaker 1: You wrote about the case of Haraldo Luna's compos who 377 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,880 died at Camp East, Montana. He was originally his death 378 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,799 was originally attributed to medical distress, but the medical examiner 379 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,240 ruled it a homicide, saying he was suffocated and became 380 00:21:58,319 --> 00:22:01,279 unresponsive while being physically restricted by law enforcement. 381 00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 3: I mean, what is sort. 382 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: Of the I mean, the the system in under which 383 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,920 these deaths are being scrutinized are are being looked at. 384 00:22:13,319 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know there's some oversight, 385 00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:20,720 but I think it kind of seems like medical examiners 386 00:22:20,759 --> 00:22:23,559 are playing an increasingly more important role when there is 387 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,160 a suspicious death. I think the case you just highlighted 388 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,279 that Lowemi wrote about is like just like underscorees to 389 00:22:31,319 --> 00:22:33,880 the point of why forensic pathology is important. Like across 390 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,079 the board, right, Like, it's just it's kind of like 391 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,680 a factual establishment of facts, right, you look at a body, 392 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,119 you determine what happened. As far as like internal investigations, 393 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,160 I don't think we've seen any internal repercussions in DHS 394 00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,559 or ICE for any of the uses of force. We 395 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:51,680 haven't even talked about the Americans who have been killed 396 00:22:51,759 --> 00:22:52,839 as part of this crackdown. 397 00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, what's your sense of sort of 398 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,359 how these deaths are being scrutinized and being you know, 399 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,480 looked at as a sign of whether anything needs to change. 400 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think what Alejandro said is right 401 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:12,279 that you know, there's doesn't seem to me a lot 402 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:18,279 of at least publicly, right, we don't know what is 403 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:23,880 going on here, and DHS has really not been very transparent. 404 00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:28,759 Speaker 4: So in that case of Compass, as you mentioned, I 405 00:23:28,839 --> 00:23:29,200 just want to. 406 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 5: Underscore that it is pretty shocking and experts said that 407 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:39,440 to us repeatedly. To have staff accused of a homicide 408 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,880 in the case of a detainee, that is I don't 409 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:49,000 want to say unprecedented, but you know, maybe so what 410 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,519 happened in that case is we didn't learn the truth 411 00:23:51,759 --> 00:23:55,920 until days or weeks later, and there's another case at 412 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,720 that same facility in Camp East Montana and Alpaso, where 413 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,200 we have not been able to get the autopsy because 414 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,599 they're sending it to the they're deferring to the military 415 00:24:05,599 --> 00:24:09,559 since it's occurring on Fort Bliss. So you know, I 416 00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:13,839 think that there are many questions around the circumstances of 417 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,720 these deaths and what if anything DHS and ICE is 418 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:21,640 doing to hold people accountable. 419 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 6: And also aggressive pushback to accountability, right, like we see 420 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,559 this with the masking, like officers don't want their identities revealed. 421 00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:30,759 And then another I guess element of oversight is Congress, 422 00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:33,480 and we've seen members of Congress turned away from detention 423 00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:38,400 facilities not really get answers when they have simple lines 424 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,359 of inquiry into these major like I don't know if 425 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,279 we call them catastrophic events, but obviously there's been a 426 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:48,200 bunch of these like one off incidents that really capture 427 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,519 the national tension, and even then it's hard to get information. 428 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that's like, I mean, just as journalists, 429 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,279 I think our personal like bone to pick right is 430 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,640 like what is available to the public and when and 431 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,279 sort of how accessible is that? 432 00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:07,319 Speaker 3: Let me. 433 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:08,799 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more about Camp 434 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:11,680 East Montana, which is where three of these deaths were 435 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,720 recorded in a very short period of time. The camp 436 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:18,039 has it's sort of, as I said at the beginning, 437 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,319 this model in some ways of what the Trump administration 438 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,079 wants to do. Build these like huge deportation or these 439 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,799 huge detention facilities. This one is on the edge of 440 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:29,559 Fort Bliss, was built in two months with a one 441 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:33,000 point two billion dollar contract and just has faced so 442 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:37,920 many issues since it started, medical neglect, spoiled insufficient food, 443 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,759 unsanitary conditions, and advocacy groups on a letter from more 444 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:46,519 than forty five people detaining alleged abuse and serious injuries, 445 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,519 and ICE's own inspectors found at least sixty violations at 446 00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:55,559 the facility shortly after it opened. We should say that 447 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,119 DHS has said the Tribune that any claimed that there 448 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,680 are inhumane conditions at ICED attention centers. 449 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 3: Are categorically false. 450 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: But it does seem like, you know, you talked to 451 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,079 some experts who said, like, we were struggling with far 452 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,799 fewer detainees to provide adequate care, adequate medical Like what 453 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,200 are we seeing in terms of the feasibility of building 454 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,079 and maintaining these sort of mass detention facilities. 455 00:26:21,519 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 456 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 5: I think that's exactly the problem and encapsulated by Camp 457 00:26:24,759 --> 00:26:28,799 East Montana, And in fact, the Trump administration just recently 458 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:35,680 ended that contract with the previous contractor and is giving 459 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,079 it to someone else that Camp Beat Montana because of 460 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:43,359 all of the problems. I mean, the issue at Camp 461 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,839 East Montana was that there were you know, these were 462 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,799 like sixty seventy people held in sort of a ton 463 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,000 camp in a pod. It seemed that the people that 464 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:57,759 were working there had very according to Representative of Roan Kascobar, 465 00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:03,200 who's the congressional resentative from Alpasa, you know, these are 466 00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:07,279 people working there who had very little training. There's been 467 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:14,079 multiple measles and tuberculosis outbreaks there, and people have not 468 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,799 been able to get not only basic medical care, but 469 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,279 even basic access to their attorneys. And part of the 470 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:25,200 problem is, as you say that, this is just this 471 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,039 like ramping up when you have so many people, and 472 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,640 when you perhaps have contractors who, in this case Acquisition Logistics, 473 00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:40,400 had no record of detention capacity of business, so you 474 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,240 know you are going to run into problems. 475 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is just I mean, this is like a 476 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,759 sort of an aside. Like I remember this when during COVID, 477 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,079 when like we were looking at I was not here 478 00:27:53,079 --> 00:27:55,079 in Texas yet, but looking at like, oh, we're going. 479 00:27:55,079 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 3: To build these sort of field hospitals. 480 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: We're going to staff up, but it's hugely logistically complicated. 481 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,599 Like it's out great to be like we're turning the 482 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,839 fairgrounds into a hospital, and then it's like, oh, this 483 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,759 is hard to do. And that's for a really limited 484 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,680 set of like responsibilities versus like maintaining people's you know, 485 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:15,039 like keeping people alive for indeterminate amounts of time. 486 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 487 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,599 Speaker 6: Also, like when you think of these like highly contagious 488 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:20,000 disease like measles, like what like two people get it 489 00:28:20,039 --> 00:28:22,559 and you're all confined in this tent, you know it 490 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,799 secluded from it's a community like it. 491 00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is high risk for we're all involved. 492 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and like that does not stay necessarily limited to 493 00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:33,039 the migrants who are in the camp. I mean we're 494 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:36,559 starting to see this spread to the communities around that inevitably. Right, 495 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,200 people go to work and come home and bring and 496 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,319 bring things like measles or other diseases. So yeah, really 497 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,119 sort of the ripple effects. I think we're starting to see. 498 00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:48,680 We talked a little bit about sort of the way 499 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,000 that these cases get national attention, and we can see 500 00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:54,200 sort of some individual case reversals. 501 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 3: I want to talk about the games Quaar family. 502 00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:01,319 Speaker 1: They were you know, this sort of got It was 503 00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:05,079 such an interesting story because they are award the children 504 00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:08,440 were award winning high school Mariachi students. They were invited 505 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,920 to the White House, they were really lauded by Congresswoman 506 00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:17,319 Monica de la Cruz, a Republican from Edinburgh, and then 507 00:29:17,359 --> 00:29:20,079 they ended up in one of these detention facilities because 508 00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:23,640 they were you know, going They were detained as part 509 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,960 of a routine check in with immigration officials. 510 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:27,559 Speaker 3: Got huge national attention. 511 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,079 Speaker 1: We should say that Representive de la Cruz is in 512 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:33,519 the middle of a very contentious re election campaign and 513 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:39,559 she ended up intervening. Antonio Gamez Quaar was detained at 514 00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:43,839 the elval Y, a detention center in Raymondville, and then 515 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,160 the rest of the family were detained at Dilly, including 516 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,039 a fourteen year old and a. 517 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 3: Twelve year old son. 518 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,559 Speaker 1: You know, Representive de la Cruz took steps to secure his, 519 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,519 you know, the whole family's release. Lem Me, what do 520 00:29:56,559 --> 00:30:00,359 you make of these sort of one off interventions from lawmakers, 521 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,839 particularly Republicans who are maybe you know, sort of part 522 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,079 of the party that is supporting this crackdown generally, but 523 00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:09,000 then intervening on these individual cases. 524 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:11,519 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this. 525 00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 5: Case was really interesting because we actually haven't seen Republicans 526 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:21,000 generally get that involved, right, And as you mentioned, the 527 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,279 congresswoman is in a in a contested. 528 00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 4: Re election campaign. Uh. 529 00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 5: I think, you know, it's unfortunate because there are, like 530 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880 we said, just like some like this family was was 531 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,599 a very compelling family. I mean, in part of the 532 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:45,200 fact that the congresswoman sort of highlighted them was because 533 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,759 she had invited them to the White House to play 534 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,480 Mariacci and like they had gone security clearance, right, and 535 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,960 and then they were being placed in deportation proceedings. So 536 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,319 so I mean, I guess in some ways it would 537 00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:00,480 have been difficult for her. 538 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:07,119 Speaker 4: Not to intervene there. But you know, they are the minority. 539 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,039 Speaker 5: The vast majority of people are not getting this attention. 540 00:31:13,319 --> 00:31:17,759 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, our colleague Baronice was like outside the 541 00:31:17,759 --> 00:31:19,559 facility when they were being released and talking to other 542 00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:22,440 people who were like, you know, well, like my loved 543 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,440 one is inside my fiancees inside my you know, family 544 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,480 members inside, and they're not getting sort of the same attention. 545 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,240 So I do think those one off cases are really 546 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,240 really interesting. 547 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:34,839 Speaker 3: Do you have anything to add to that? 548 00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:36,559 Speaker 2: No, it just sent me as an observer. 549 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,599 Speaker 6: It just seems like like the golden ticket to the 550 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,240 Willy Wonka factory, like to make a I guess silly reference, 551 00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:47,880 but yeah, it's just and it's also interesting the case 552 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,480 is that get attention, but nothing happens right, Like there 553 00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:57,319 have been numerous like just chroniclings of going on around 554 00:31:57,319 --> 00:32:01,960 the country that captivate people's ten and then like still 555 00:32:02,319 --> 00:32:04,799 nothing happens, right, And if I. 556 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 5: Can jump in, like for example, like you know, Liam, 557 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,680 the little five year old from in Yeapolis, his family, 558 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,759 he and his father were just ordered support it. So 559 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,839 despite that national attention, that still happened. And then you know, 560 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,440 in the case of the Alcamal family that you know 561 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,319 we wrote about, it's been really interesting in it and 562 00:32:27,359 --> 00:32:31,079 I think there's multiple dynamics going on here. But it 563 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,480 seems that Congress is hustan to get involved because the 564 00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:38,279 father is accused of these anti Semitic crimes, even though 565 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:43,640 the family isn't explicitly not so, you know, I think 566 00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:47,279 it starts to become a little bit of like, you know, 567 00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:50,880 a favoritism system, which. 568 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 4: Is really sad. 569 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's always kind of been like that. 570 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,480 Now it's just what we see seeing witnessing is how 571 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:01,680 much the politics have changed. Like well, I mean I 572 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,079 have a shared friend who used to cover immigration for many, 573 00:33:04,119 --> 00:33:06,119 many years, and then she left because she just couldn't 574 00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:08,720 take anywhere. She was like you'd literally right about the 575 00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:13,400 most devastating things and often nothing changes. But now I 576 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,559 think it's interesting to see how Democrats are changing there. 577 00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:20,599 They're tune and talking about like you know, securing the border, 578 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,799 look enforcing the law humanly because of how much overwhelming 579 00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:28,319 support Trump court it that it just feels like the 580 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:30,640 needle has moved so much that they're not letting up 581 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,720 the throttle at all. Like I mean, like Liam's Family 582 00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:35,519 or Killer Market, We're going to see one of the 583 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:38,440 first big prominent cases, like they're still trying to deport 584 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,680 him now. It's like it's becoming an ears long effort, expensive, 585 00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:43,960 arduous process to remove this one man. 586 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: And it's just yeah, it just seems like a lot 587 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,519 has changed in recent years. 588 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of the Overton window shifted pretty sharply. I mean, 589 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,519 do you want to talk about story of the political response, Alejandro. 590 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,519 You have written about sort of we saw in twenty 591 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:04,759 twenty four Republicans swing very sharply, especially in border communities 592 00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:08,079 for Republicans. And now we've just had a recent election. 593 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,840 You know, what are the tea leaves saying about what 594 00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:16,000 Latino voters are are going to do this election? And 595 00:34:16,039 --> 00:34:17,840 then we can talk about what that says about all 596 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:18,039 of this. 597 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,519 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's hard to make swooping statements, right Like, 598 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,320 I think we have a bunch of individual data points 599 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:27,840 that Democrats are finding hope in and the midterms is 600 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,400 another example of that. In the Valley in particular, the 601 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,599 four counties that make up the Valley, they saw turnout 602 00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:37,320 surge massively. Yeah, Democratic Party did, but so the Republicans 603 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,400 and Republicans have been making gains there for years and 604 00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:42,199 part of that is an investment that they have treated 605 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,920 Latinos like swing voters they think, longer than Democrats have. 606 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,039 But what it means, I don't know. It means to 607 00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:49,519 be seen. I think it also depends who's at the 608 00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:52,800 top of the ticket. I think the hope for Democrats 609 00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:56,440 is that they could win back Latino support and even 610 00:34:56,559 --> 00:34:59,000 just a little bit like ten fifteen percent in some 611 00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:01,800 of these counties could flip seats like and that's kind 612 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,280 of what they're banking on here. And other data points 613 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,840 include like the like the Senate District Texas Senate District 614 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,199 nine special election we had, which was like, I know, 615 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,719 one off the end of January on a Saturday, after 616 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,199 a freeze. But again they saw like Democrat, the Democrat 617 00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:20,119 Center Taylor Remont who won, saw a lot of turnout 618 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:26,440 in the Hispanic precincts and felt that that helped propel 619 00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:29,639 him to victory, paired with his message of you know, 620 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:30,800 kitchen table issues. 621 00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 3: Do we have any sense. 622 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,199 Speaker 1: Of how these you know, immigration enforcement actions are playing 623 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,760 with Latino voters and whether that's going to influence. 624 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, polling is mixed. 625 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,039 Speaker 6: I mean, I think there's like there's disapproval among Latinos 626 00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:50,559 written large, but I think Latino Republicans are it's like 627 00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:56,000 a little murkier And I don't know. I subscribe to 628 00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:58,400 the school of anyone who says they know exactly what's 629 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,320 gonna happen, is it? 630 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it'll be interesting to see again, like 631 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,400 you're never gonna be able to like parse out exactly 632 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,519 what led to what. But I do think certainly, if 633 00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:12,840 you know, Democrats managed to hold some of those seats 634 00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:16,719 or regain some of that lost ground with Latinos, particularly 635 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,760 in the Valley, I think they at least will be 636 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,639 reading the tea leaves to say like this is an 637 00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:23,840 indictment of President Trump's immigration. 638 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:24,559 Speaker 2: Totally, totally. 639 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 6: But I think it's also it's going to be interesting 640 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,639 to see how that affects us at the in Texas 641 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,360 and at the state House as we had into twenty 642 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,679 twenty seven, because Republicans here are not letting any pressure 643 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,239 off the throttle either. I mean, just let me brought 644 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,320 up Stephen Miller at the beginning of the conversation. He 645 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:44,239 talked to a cohort of state lawmakers Friday AND's grilling 646 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,239 them about what we haven't done. 647 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 2: And this is the state that has done the most. 648 00:36:48,079 --> 00:36:50,639 Speaker 6: We had our own immigration crackdown for years that people 649 00:36:50,679 --> 00:36:53,400 don't even like talk about now. And you know, they're 650 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,480 talking about like overturning like legal precedent that grants undocumented 651 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:00,840 kids access to school, like talking about like ways to 652 00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:04,880 ensure that people who crue, medical debt, or cost the state. 653 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,000 Anything can get deported, and just like really doubling down 654 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,199 on immigration crackdown. 655 00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, let me. 656 00:37:12,559 --> 00:37:14,199 Speaker 1: I guess that's sort of my final question to you, 657 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,360 which is in terms of we are certainly we hear 658 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,920 backlash to this really you know, increased ramp up of 659 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,119 immigration enforcement. We hear a lot of backlash to the 660 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,800 reports of these poor conditions of detainees and the deaths 661 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,360 and some of these families that are being sort of 662 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:40,119 separated or families that are being detained. What is your 663 00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:43,960 sense of how much that affects the policy of the 664 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,440 federal government going forward, whether there is there sort of 665 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,440 a tipping point in which they say, like there's too 666 00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:52,039 much backlash, we have to back off from this, or 667 00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:54,519 do you think this is kind of what we're going 668 00:37:54,599 --> 00:37:55,840 to be looking at for the next couple of years 669 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,760 the Trump administration. 670 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 5: I think it's fluid, right, And what we've seen is, 671 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,760 you know, the Department of Homeland Security Secretary Christinome was 672 00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:13,480 fired or left, depending on your perspective. So that was 673 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,159 seen in any case as some sort of indictment of 674 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:24,360 the very extreme tactics that was used in Minneapolis in particular, 675 00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:29,440 but you know, followed Chicago and Los Angeles and the 676 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,559 kind of border of twelve person in charge of some 677 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,960 of this is also was sort of moved and is 678 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,719 also leaving. And then there have been reports that Republicans 679 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,239 are sort of internally saying, like, look, this isn't polling well, 680 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,599 we need to like dial down the rhetoric a little bit. 681 00:38:51,159 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 2: You know. 682 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 4: I don't know. 683 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 5: It's a bit of an internal battle, I think because 684 00:38:55,039 --> 00:38:57,039 on the one hand, you have Stephen Miller, who is 685 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,920 very influential in pushing this, and then you have kind of, 686 00:39:02,119 --> 00:39:06,000 you know, maybe some more moderate Republicans who are saying, 687 00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:11,559 look like for example, Congressmen Dela Cruz like perhaps saying 688 00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:13,800 like this is not working. 689 00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 4: For me in my district or reelection. 690 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,679 Speaker 5: So I don't know exactly right, Like, I don't I 691 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,760 think we've seen it kind of dial down a little 692 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,280 bit because we've not seen another Minneapolis, right and there's 693 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,400 been there's high level departures. 694 00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 4: There's also been they've been. 695 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:37,559 Speaker 5: Releasing more families from Dilley, for example, on Pond. But 696 00:39:38,159 --> 00:39:40,519 I don't think that they're backing down entirely because this 697 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,679 is partly their mandate, So I think it remains to be. 698 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:50,199 Speaker 4: Seen exactly how they straddle what is a difficult line. 699 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 6: Now we also only talk about like the most I 700 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,480 guess we often focus on unenforcemently, you know, like the 701 00:39:56,599 --> 00:39:58,360 resting someone, putting them in a car and taking them 702 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,039 away to deport them. But they'll changing, like so many 703 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,079 like the administration is changing so many aspects of migrating 704 00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:06,679 to America, and like even coming here legally has gotten 705 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,559 more difficult, and also like most of the staff has 706 00:40:11,639 --> 00:40:14,800 been directed to the deportation efforts. 707 00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean we're hearing political candidates in Texas 708 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,320 saying like we should be looking at legal immigrants too, 709 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,320 we should be looking at legal immigration, and like do 710 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,480 we need all of these citizenship and excistionenship I mean, 711 00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:30,400 like basically blocking the H one B visa program. I mean, 712 00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:32,400 all sorts of things are changing, like you said, but 713 00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:37,119 certainly sort of. I think the the human conditions in 714 00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:41,159 these detention facilities getting a lot of that attention. Well, 715 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,960 as let me said, it's a very fluid situation, and 716 00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:46,440 as Alejandro said, anyone who says they know where this 717 00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:48,920 is going is deeply untrustworthy. 718 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 3: So we will continue to cover this. 719 00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 1: You know at the Texas Tribune, monitor the situation, monitoring 720 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,719 the situation. We've got a lot of great reporters on this, 721 00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:00,280 obviously Low I mean Alejandro, also Colleen de Goes Mon 722 00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:05,719 and Bernice Garcia in the Valley and many others putting 723 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,639 their heads on this, so stay tuned to that coverage. 724 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,320 Are That is it for the Trip cast this week. 725 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,719 Our producers are Rob and Chris. You can get us 726 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,840 anywhere you get your podcasts, and we will see you 727 00:41:19,159 --> 00:41:19,639 next week.