WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:06.280 Meaning a man like this man letting butterfly flapping his wing. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:07.440 Dig down in the forest. 3 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:10.240 Man, it gonna cause a tree fall, letting five thousand 4 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:12.880 miles away. Man, nobody seen, nobody. 5 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:18.600 See. You don't need to know. 6 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.160 Man. He like you followed a little story and he 7 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:23.640 got directed like that. 8 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:24.600 That's the way man. 9 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:28.039 Lactly dang on the panel, Man, Man, Man. 10 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.119 All right, Alex Petkis, welcome back to the Jay Burton Show. 11 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:39.880 How you doing Man, Great to be here, Jay. It's 12 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:40.920 it's always a pleasure. 13 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:44.119 Yeah, yeah, I was. 14 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:47.359 I was speaking, uh to a sort of online friend 15 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:50.359 of mine, and he just sent me a message and said, hey, 16 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.679 you know, what are you ever considering, you know, talking 17 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:55.399 to this cost of Glory guy. 18 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:57.119 It's like, yeah, I have. 19 00:00:57.320 --> 00:00:59.399 I just talked to him, and then when I scrolled 20 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:01.320 back through, I really it's been almost two years since 21 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:04.040 you and I have spoken, and so I'm really glad 22 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:07.439 to have you back on particularly you have been doing 23 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:12.400 a really masterful series on the life of Caesar. I 24 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.640 cannot recommend it enough. Obviously, we're going to cover some 25 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.760 of the same material, but look, man, Part one is 26 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:24.079 almost two hours long, very very entertaining, very well produced, 27 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:28.079 So I highly recommend that, and obviously I assume at 28 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:31.560 least most people are vaguely familiar. But let's just jump 29 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:35.920 into it, right, let's jump into the life of Caesar. So, 30 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.840 just to sort of frame this discussion, most of what 31 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:45.719 you hear about Caesar is from the conquest of gaul On, right, 32 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:50.239 that this great military victory, returning to Rome, the birth 33 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:53.719 of the empire, right, his dramatic assassination. The stuff that 34 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:58.040 you know, obviously is sort of the crescendo of his life. 35 00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:03.879 But his early life before that is in my mind 36 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:09.479 equally fascinating and under discussed. So I guess as a 37 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.800 way to begin this conversation, Alex, there's a lot of 38 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:20.159 Roman politics in the generation immediately before Caesar, including you know, 39 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:24.400 his own family that's relevant to this discussion, that is 40 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:29.319 relevant to the end of the republic. And I realized, 41 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:31.639 asking where do we need to just to start in 42 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:34.240 a conversation about history. It's like you can keep pulling 43 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:35.000 the thread forever. 44 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:38.319 Yes, well, you know a Nias was a famous mythic 45 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:42.400 Trojan hero. Now anyway, you always. 46 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:47.960 But when we're discussing Caesar, like, where do we have 47 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:49.759 to start at least in approximate sense. 48 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:54.599 Yeah, no, And I definitely relate about the the opaqueness 49 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.000 of Caesar's early days. You know, when I was a 50 00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:01.840 kid in high school ed Caesar's Gollic War commentaries and 51 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.599 it was cool and you know, action and slashing, and 52 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:09.439 you don't realize how he was not at all Julius 53 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:12.919 Caesar as we know when he began that campaign. And 54 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:18.800 I think it's not even studied that intensely in classics departments. 55 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:22.240 You know, from my experience being an academic, it wasn't 56 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:25.560 really on my radar. And doing the biographies of the 57 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.639 men before him was really helpful for me. Marius and Salah, 58 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:33.280 notorious and pompy. But so I think that the best 59 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:36.360 way to frame it is probably like looking at Caesar's 60 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:41.240 immediate childhood and the environment he grows up in. So 61 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:46.520 he's born in one hundred BC, and that year there 62 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.360 was some tumults in Rome in the forum. There were 63 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:56.560 some populists who tried to push through some controversial laws 64 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:01.719 and they got lynched basically by the optimates, by the 65 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:08.360 conservative or the oligarchy. Let's say Saturn Ninus was one 66 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:11.360 of the ringleaders. He was I believe he was a 67 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:13.080 tribune at the time, but he was like a kind 68 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:18.079 of protege or or at least associate, not a protege 69 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:23.959 an associate of this this famous populist general Gaius Marius, 70 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:28.160 who was holding his sixth consulship at the time, and 71 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:31.720 they arrested him and they locked him in the Senate 72 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:35.399 house overnight, and some people snuck in, ripped off the 73 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:39.480 roof and threw tiles down, you know, these terra cotta tiles, 74 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.720 and basically murdered him from above in that year. So 75 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:48.680 Rome has been going through civic violence since the days 76 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:51.519 of the Grachy, which was about thirty years earlier. Really 77 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:55.519 shocked people when the Grachy were both in sequence between, 78 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.839 you know, separated by eight or so years, murdered in 79 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.800 in the effectively in the city with limits of Rome. 80 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:09.600 And you know, there are lots of reasons why the 81 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:15.240 populace and the optimates quarreled. But in Caesar's day, like 82 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.240 when he's growing up, he grows up in a sort 83 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:24.399 of populist family. He is from a very noble line 84 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:29.079 that does actually trace its lineage back to Aeneas, the 85 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:33.040 mythic founder of Troy, which becomes important. On his father's side, 86 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:37.839 the Julians are descendant of the son of Aeneas Eulus, 87 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.639 and his mom's side is the Marquius Rex family, and 88 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.319 they're descendant from one of the ancient kings of Rome, 89 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:49.319 Ancus Marqius, very blue blood. However, you know he's not 90 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.079 from his family, isn't like in the power elite. The 91 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:55.920 power elite would consist of people like the Cornelius clan, 92 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:01.360 the Mettelli, the Scipio's or branch of the Cornelius klan, 93 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.319 and you know, you could keep naming names, but the 94 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:07.279 Caesars are not or the Julius Caesars are not really 95 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:12.360 in that. But his father does seem to be a 96 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:18.000 promising politician, dies when Caesar was a teenager. But before that, 97 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:24.680 Caesar's aunt Mary's the guy just mentioned Gaius Marius, who 98 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:29.319 is this outsider from our penum, which is, you know, 99 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:33.839 a city that enjoys Roman citizenship, but it's like halfway 100 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:37.120 to Naples, and Cicero's actually from there, and he was 101 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:41.600 the first new man in the Senate, or yeah, like 102 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:44.560 the first at least the first person become a consul 103 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.279 who wasn't from a consular family. Who didn't have console 104 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:52.079 descendants in I think decades. I mean, it's very rare 105 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:53.959 by this time for newman. 106 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:55.040 To come about. 107 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.839 And he built his reputation by challenging the establishment, but 108 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.519 kind of became part of it as a populist. And 109 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:10.560 you know he was he got rich sort of late 110 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:14.079 in life from his provincial governorships. He got famous from 111 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.920 just you know, conquering you Girtha and the Kimbrian the 112 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:23.800 Gauls up on the northern border. But he got respectable 113 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:29.879 by marrying into Caesar's family, poor but great name. And 114 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.439 so Caesar grows up with Guius Marius as his uncle 115 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:38.040 and as a further testament to his populist credentials. When 116 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.800 he's a teenager, he this is very young for Romany. 117 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:47.399 He's married like at age sixteen, very precocious, and he 118 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:52.000 gets married to the daughter of Guius Marius is like 119 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:55.199 right hand man or his closest associate in politics, Sinna, 120 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:57.879 who is a consul at the time. And this is 121 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:03.920 in the period of where well probably need to back 122 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.240 up a little bit to explain who Senna is. But 123 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:11.560 so Caesar grows up in this sort of rundown neighborhood 124 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.839 the Suburah, and there's brothels and kind of c D 125 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:19.240 nightlife in the Suburah. It's not a nice place to be. 126 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:22.680 It's an old neighborhood. And so he kind of grows 127 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:27.040 up with this deeper familiarity with the fringes and the 128 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:30.240 underbelly of Roman society than you normally would get in 129 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.200 a noble household. And I think that probably goes into 130 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:41.600 his consciousness some degree. But you know, when the populists 131 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:46.600 and the optimates first clashed, we could just keep going 132 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.799 back and back and back, but it was around eighty 133 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:50.559 eight BC. 134 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:54.039 Caesar's Twelve Guias. 135 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:59.919 Marius provokes Solah, the Optimate leader, who is about to 136 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:04.080 lead an army off to the east and against Mithridates 137 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:10.639 and Marius finnagels, you know, bi legal chick caanery, to 138 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:14.320 have the command transferred to himself rather than Slah, who 139 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:18.399 is the consul at the time. And you know, long story, 140 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:23.240 short war breaks out. Solah marches on Rome and expels 141 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.440 Marius as an enemy of the state, has a dozen 142 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:31.519 or so of his associates executed, and kind of patches 143 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.559 things up and then goes off east to fight Mithridates, 144 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:38.600 and you know thinks that it's the situation settled, but 145 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:44.320 it's only just begin begun and and and it's it's 146 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:48.799 when Marius gets exiled or in eighty eight that Senna 147 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:50.080 takes over as consul. 148 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:51.159 Marius has gone. 149 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:55.559 Senna is consul for three years in Rome and basically 150 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:59.399 running a populist regime in Saula's absence. And that's when 151 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:04.039 Caesar gets me to send his daughter. So Slah comes 152 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:08.559 back in in eighty four, I believe he lands in Italy. 153 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.960 Incredibly bloody civil war breaks out, I mean one hundred 154 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:20.559 thousand Romans dead, and eventually he wins, and Senna gets 155 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:25.840 assassinated sometime and you know, right before Sola arrives in Italy. 156 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:30.000 And then Slah comes and marches into Rome after his victory, 157 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:36.240 and he starts the proscriptions, you know, the famous campaign 158 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.120 of listing your enemies on a placard in the forum 159 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:42.559 and you know, putting a bounty on their heads and 160 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:45.519 having their properties confiscated, and he's also calling other shots. 161 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:49.240 He gets elected dictator, revives this old office very importantly 162 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.639 that was defunct since the Punic Wars about one hundred 163 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:57.679 and twenty years earlier to legal Roman office, but he 164 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:03.120 also starts ordering people to do other stuff. Like Pompey, 165 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:06.759 for example, is five years or so older than Caesar 166 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:14.080 seven years and Pompy is a young, precocious son of 167 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:18.120 a consul who brought Salah about a legion's worth of 168 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:21.120 soldiers during the Civil War. Early on it was like 169 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.320 kind of important to Sulla's victory, five thousand men or so. 170 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:29.720 And after the victory, Salah says, Pompey, you need to 171 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:31.720 change wives. I've got a better woman for you. You're 172 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:34.200 married to the wrong woman. And Pompey says, yes, sir, 173 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:38.039 And then he does this with a couple of other 174 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:42.000 promising young men. Caesar, lucky for him, was too young 175 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:43.720 to have fought on the side that he would have 176 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.320 chosen in the Civil War, which you know, if you 177 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.240 were like five years older, he probably would have been 178 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:55.440 either killed or exiled or proscribed. And he Slah goes 179 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.960 to Caesar and says, Caesar, you're married to the wrong woman. 180 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:01.639 You're married to the daughter of my greatest enemy, the 181 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:06.519 man that I blame for the whole civil war breaking out. Sinna, 182 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:13.399 you know, in conjunction with Marius, was responsible. And Caesar 183 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:19.759 says basically, screw you, and he quits town, goes into 184 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:25.559 that the mountains. He's running away from Salah's henchman. Eventually 185 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:30.919 gets dysentery, caught, bribes the guard who who caught him. 186 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.679 They bring him back to his family, and his family 187 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:38.000 tries to intercede for Caesar. Salah, you know, I know 188 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:41.559 that you ordered Julius Caesar to divorce his wife and 189 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:42.440 marry another woman. 190 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:45.919 But he's just a kid. He didn't know what he 191 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:46.320 was doing. 192 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.240 We promise he's not going to cause you any trouble. 193 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.440 Can you please just not execute this young man? And 194 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:57.440 Sullah says, very well, famously, very well, but your fools 195 00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:59.679 if you do not see many of Marius in this boy. 196 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:04.120 And I think that that incident shows a lot about 197 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:08.960 Caesar's character, that he is, he knows kind of where 198 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.519 he stands in politics, like his family has great populist credentials. 199 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:17.159 His dad got to the praadership, probably would have been 200 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.120 if he had been still alive during the war. Died 201 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:24.200 kind of tragically. I think he was tying his shoe 202 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:29.600 and so he dies before this all breaks out. If 203 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:32.440 he had been alive, he would have been either killed 204 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:35.840 or proscribed by Sulah, and the sons of proscribed men 205 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:38.559 were barred from politics for the rest of their lives 206 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:42.200 under Sullah's new regime. So Caesar would have been basically 207 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:44.159 that would have been the end of his story if 208 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:47.480 his father had actually been alive. Kind of like cruel 209 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:51.159 but benevolent twist of fortune maybe in his favor. And 210 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.759 so he knows if he stands up to Sullah, he's 211 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:02.919 going to if he survives, which is very much not guaranteed, 212 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:05.879 he's going to be the talk of the town. This 213 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:08.840 is the kid that stood up to Salah. This is 214 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:10.960 They're going to be talking about this for the rest 215 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:12.919 of his life. And sure enough, you know, we know 216 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:17.039 the story. Still it worked. But and so I think 217 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:18.799 he already kind of has that taste for how to 218 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.559 get people talking about him. But I think he also 219 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.960 probably just liked the girl, and he was faithful to 220 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.399 that wife, I mean, didn't divorce her, at least until 221 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.240 she died many years later. He has his first and 222 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:41.279 only daughter with her, Cornelia, And I think he just 223 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:47.600 didn't like taking orders from people, you know, But he's 224 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:50.200 kind of already picked his side very importantly in that 225 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:55.559 in that story, and and sla ends up essentially rewriting 226 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.200 the Constitution to resemble something like what he thought it 227 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.679 had been, or what he he believed it should have 228 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:06.159 been in the generations before. He takes the powers away 229 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:08.759 from the Tribune of the Plubs, which was an important 230 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:10.960 instrument in the hands of a populist that he kind 231 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.159 of blamed for sparking off the war. And most importantly, 232 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:19.799 you know, he's either murdered or made permanently or exiled 233 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:23.039 or made permanently irrelevant in politics. All of his enemies 234 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:28.080 and everybody kind of left in place are his loyalists. 235 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:33.320 They're the kind of posts sola oligarchy, mostly old families 236 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:35.679 who sided with him, the conservatives, some new people that 237 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:40.240 kind of you know, become pillars of the establishments. And 238 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:43.639 so that's kind of the regime that Caesar grows up under, 239 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:51.080 this like cracked down a reactionary optimate oligarchy, and it's 240 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:55.840 also the regime that he dedicates the rest of his 241 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:58.440 life to overturning, and he eventually does. 242 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.200 So there are several things there that I want to 243 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:08.960 talk about, particularly with the prescriptions, which is one obviously 244 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:13.000 you've just kind of cataloged the political consequences, you know, 245 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.159 the degree to which Sela was able to remake sort 246 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:20.039 of the apparatus of power in his own image. But 247 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:24.440 one of the I guess we could say kind of 248 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:29.480 recurring traits of Caesar is obviously his clemency, but also 249 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:38.639 his willingness to sacrifice immediate gain for political alliances, for friendships. 250 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.960 So one of the things that I'm interested in, and 251 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.519 I realized this is speculative. But to what degree do 252 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.080 you think that that attitude was a reaction to the 253 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.919 character of Celah And also to what degree did the 254 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:59.519 prescriptions are seizing property sort of reinforce the pre existing 255 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.639 oligarch right if you have gotten rich by taking other 256 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.759 people's stuff, that creates a vested interest at least I 257 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.480 would imagine in keeping that system around. 258 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:12.519 Yeah, one hundred percent. 259 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:19.400 And well, to take the last part first, Socrates, when 260 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:27.240 the thirty tyrants of Athens were doing something similar, executing 261 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:32.880 and confiscating properties. The thirty, as he says in Plato's Apology, 262 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:38.279 they were trying to get respectable men to share. 263 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:38.720 In the crimes. 264 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:40.599 They're trying to implicate them, you know, they try to 265 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:46.599 get Socrates to go and summon some prominent citizen, you know, 266 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:49.240 so that he would effectively have blood on his hands. 267 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.079 And Salah knew this principle. Caesar later cited this very 268 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:59.039 principle in his speech in the Calinarian Orations, like this 269 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.160 is kind of what you do if you're establishing a 270 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:08.000 regime on you know, blood and what people would normally 271 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:12.839 call injustice. And uh, you know Crassus, the richest man 272 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:16.240 in Rome in Caesar's youth, that's how he made a 273 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.079 lot of his fortune. He's buying up these estates of 274 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:24.880 proscribed men pennies on the dollar or asses on the 275 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:29.559 talent maybe in Roman terms, and then reselling them at 276 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:33.920 a huge profit. And he just he's flipping houses. Basically, 277 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.640 he's a house flipper, and he makes it, makes a 278 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:43.319 big nest egg that way. Catiline was also implicated crass 279 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.000 has got the worst of it reputation wise, but you 280 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:49.559 know it did, it did definitely, Like there were lots 281 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.119 of people who who had profited from the system. And 282 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.160 actually Caesar later is in is I think this is 283 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:01.279 in the early sixties, he collaborated with Cato funny Enough, 284 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:06.680 his Future and Nemesis on digging up crimes from the 285 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:13.000 times of the proscriptions and prosecuting men for say, informing 286 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:15.599 against an innocent man who had then got executed, and 287 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.519 then they profited from their estate, and there was a 288 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:23.440 lot of band aid ripping off, and you know, injustice 289 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:29.039 to hunt out two decades later. But it worked for 290 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:33.920 a while at least. And I think that Caesar's incredible daring, 291 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:37.079 which you see again and again from his youth up 292 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:39.799 to his well, his very last day on earth, I 293 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:42.279 think has a lot to do with that sense of 294 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:45.799 he was spared by fortune, you know, like he had 295 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:51.680 already tested himself young, he had taken like the ultimate risk, 296 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.279 like he was very close to being executed, and so 297 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.480 everything else was just like he had destiny on side, 298 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:07.519 like he had already kind of put the ultimate short 299 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:13.240 term gain up for sacrifice to get the long term gain. 300 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:15.799 And it's you know, it's a pattern that started very 301 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:16.359 young for him. 302 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:17.680 And you know, he goes on to. 303 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.119 Win the Roman equivalent of the Medal of Honor as 304 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.839 a young soldier in his early twenties, saving a citizen 305 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.880 I think, in the Siege of Middelini. And but he 306 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:36.319 does importantly, as I think you allude to, he I 307 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.960 think that that is a big part of his clemency, 308 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:43.880 about his mercy towards his enemies. He's everybody remembers Sulah. 309 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:46.440 If they don't personally, if they weren't personally there, their 310 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:50.240 dads told him about him. And so he's trying to 311 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.440 make himself the Unsola for the rest of his life. 312 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.480 He's he's going against the sla establishment in his political 313 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:00.559 career and in his actions in the Civil War. He 314 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.599 is very ostentatiously sparing people, you know, every now and 315 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:08.799 then to his to his great detriments in the in 316 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.039 the very end, but I think that's what he felt 317 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.359 like he had to do, and for the most part, 318 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.559 it set him apart. And it was definitely not what 319 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:17.559 his enemies were doing in the Civil War either. You know, 320 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.400 Pompey and his friends are talking about Saula did it, 321 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:24.839 why can't we? And they're talking about, you know, rounding 322 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:28.160 up the not even just their enemies, but even the 323 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:32.319 lukewarm and the Civil War cause. And this this actually 324 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.000 works very strongly against them. Like lots of people go 325 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:40.200 over to Caesar because they know that he's gonna he's 326 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.440 going to be easy on people who change sides. And 327 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.640 it allows him to have enough credibility to like refound 328 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:50.880 the state or put some stable things in place before 329 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:51.680 he's assassinated. 330 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:58.480 So one of the things that I I learned from 331 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.759 your video I thought was particularly interesting is, and this 332 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.240 is kind of a stupid way to say it, but 333 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.160 it's like Caesar's first job, right, his first position of note. 334 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:14.960 And so I'm curious, could you explain that first role 335 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.119 and then the sort of bizarre situation that allows him 336 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:22.519 to enter politics after initially being barred from it. 337 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:27.920 Yeah, you mean like his first military duties or. 338 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:30.440 No, no, no, as a as a priest. 339 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:36.279 Yeah, yeah, this is hilarious. So he gets. 340 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.480 I think this is probably I'm not sure when this 341 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:41.720 relates to his marriage, but. 342 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:42.440 Yeah, he gets. 343 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:50.200 He gets picked for a priesthood, and and it's a 344 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:51.559 special kind of priesthood. 345 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:54.880 He's d what's the name of it. 346 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:59.799 It's escaping me for some reason, but essentially as as 347 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.720 a priest of this class. I'll look it up just 348 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:08.480 so remind myself. You are entrusted with a variety of 349 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.480 sacred rights. But what you can't do is, I mean 350 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:15.160 you have to, like if you clip your fingernails, you 351 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:17.440 have to collect your fingernails and bury them. If you 352 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.880 get your hair cut, you have to put the hair 353 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.240 in a special spot and you know, consecrate it, and 354 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:31.119 essentially gets this job that is like a kind of 355 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:34.880 golden cage. It's the flomendialis is what it's called. So 356 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.640 he's like a prelative Jupiter, and. 357 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:39.799 You had to live. 358 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:44.720 You couldn't leave the city under any circumstances. You couldn't 359 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:48.079 even for two nights, I think. You can't spend time 360 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.359 outside the city. You can't even see men under arms, 361 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.839 and you have to wear a funny hat. So it's 362 00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.559 kind of like the people that gave him this priesthood, 363 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:02.799 we're either trying to keep him out of politics or 364 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.920 they're underestimating his ability. He's basically going to be, you know, 365 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.519 a priestly type, and Rome is not the kind of 366 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.200 place where every priesthood is like this, Right, he ends 367 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:17.759 up being the pontiffects Maximus and Pompy's an augur CISOs 368 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:21.200 and augur. So this is a very special, restrictive priesthood, 369 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:25.359 the flammin dalis. It's very prestigious, but completely politically powerless 370 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:26.039 and irrelevant. 371 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:27.200 And so. 372 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.960 Somehow I think it's it has to do with the 373 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:41.319 the laws of Senna being abolished under Sulah. I can't 374 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.400 remember how he gets out of it, but essentially he 375 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:49.359 sees an opportunity and some laws are overturned and he 376 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:53.039 gets out of the flammin dialis priesthood early on. But 377 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:56.920 it kind of sets him apart, and it I think 378 00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.799 it kind of gives him this sense like that's how 379 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.799 it's kind of psychologizing, but that he's like different from 380 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:04.759 other people somehow. 381 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:13.200 So perhaps the most we could say sort of famous 382 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:20.599 episode in Caesar's early life is where he is captured 383 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:24.640 by pirates. Where does that occur sort of in his 384 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:29.119 rise to power? And obviously what can we learn from 385 00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:32.359 him from that? I guess from that episode? 386 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:39.720 Right, Yeah, Well, in a Roman's twenties, you're kind of 387 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:42.559 in and out of military service. There's ten years from 388 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.960 age eighteen to twenty eight of Tirocinium. You're a tyro, 389 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.599 a junior officer, you're often in the tent of a 390 00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:55.599 distinguished commander. And so there's various minor campaigns going on 391 00:25:55.960 --> 00:26:01.799 in the Gan like cities that have sided with mithridates 392 00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:04.759 and revolting, or there's a lot of pirates in the 393 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:09.400 Eastern Mediterranean. So this is before Pompey clears the seas 394 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:16.559 of pirates in sixty seven. That Caesar is out in 395 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:22.359 in this kind of wilder circumstance in the Eastern Mediterranean. 396 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:25.240 He's he's kind of in and out of He goes 397 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:29.400 to study at Rhodes with the famous rhetorician who Apollonius Molon, 398 00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:32.799 who's also this guy that Caesar that Cicero studied with, 399 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.880 and so he's kind of a student student. 400 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:40.279 Soldier, doing a little of this, doing a little of that. 401 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.799