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Speaker 1: Meaning a man like this man letting butterfly flapping his wing.

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Dig down in the forest.

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Speaker 2: Man, it gonna cause a tree fall, letting five thousand

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miles away. Man, nobody seen, nobody.

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Speaker 1: See. You don't need to know.

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Speaker 3: Man. He like you followed a little story and he

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got directed like that.

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Speaker 1: That's the way man.

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Speaker 2: Lactly dang on the panel, Man, Man, Man.

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Speaker 1: All right, Alex Petkis, welcome back to the Jay Burton Show.

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How you doing Man, Great to be here, Jay. It's

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it's always a pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was.

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Speaker 1: I was speaking, uh to a sort of online friend

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of mine, and he just sent me a message and said, hey,

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you know, what are you ever considering, you know, talking

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to this cost of Glory guy.

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Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I have.

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Speaker 1: I just talked to him, and then when I scrolled

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back through, I really it's been almost two years since

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you and I have spoken, and so I'm really glad

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to have you back on particularly you have been doing

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a really masterful series on the life of Caesar. I

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cannot recommend it enough. Obviously, we're going to cover some

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of the same material, but look, man, Part one is

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almost two hours long, very very entertaining, very well produced,

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So I highly recommend that, and obviously I assume at

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least most people are vaguely familiar. But let's just jump

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into it, right, let's jump into the life of Caesar. So,

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just to sort of frame this discussion, most of what

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you hear about Caesar is from the conquest of gaul On, right,

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that this great military victory, returning to Rome, the birth

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of the empire, right, his dramatic assassination. The stuff that

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you know, obviously is sort of the crescendo of his life.

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But his early life before that is in my mind

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equally fascinating and under discussed. So I guess as a

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way to begin this conversation, Alex, there's a lot of

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Roman politics in the generation immediately before Caesar, including you know,

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his own family that's relevant to this discussion, that is

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relevant to the end of the republic. And I realized,

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asking where do we need to just to start in

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a conversation about history. It's like you can keep pulling

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the thread forever.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, you know a Nias was a famous mythic

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Trojan hero. Now anyway, you always.

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Speaker 1: But when we're discussing Caesar, like, where do we have

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to start at least in approximate sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, And I definitely relate about the the opaqueness

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of Caesar's early days. You know, when I was a

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kid in high school ed Caesar's Gollic War commentaries and

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it was cool and you know, action and slashing, and

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you don't realize how he was not at all Julius

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Caesar as we know when he began that campaign. And

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I think it's not even studied that intensely in classics departments.

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You know, from my experience being an academic, it wasn't

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really on my radar. And doing the biographies of the

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men before him was really helpful for me. Marius and Salah,

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notorious and pompy. But so I think that the best

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way to frame it is probably like looking at Caesar's

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immediate childhood and the environment he grows up in. So

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he's born in one hundred BC, and that year there

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was some tumults in Rome in the forum. There were

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some populists who tried to push through some controversial laws

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and they got lynched basically by the optimates, by the

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conservative or the oligarchy. Let's say Saturn Ninus was one

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of the ringleaders. He was I believe he was a

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tribune at the time, but he was like a kind

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of protege or or at least associate, not a protege

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an associate of this this famous populist general Gaius Marius,

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who was holding his sixth consulship at the time, and

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they arrested him and they locked him in the Senate

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house overnight, and some people snuck in, ripped off the

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roof and threw tiles down, you know, these terra cotta tiles,

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and basically murdered him from above in that year. So

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Rome has been going through civic violence since the days

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of the Grachy, which was about thirty years earlier. Really

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shocked people when the Grachy were both in sequence between,

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you know, separated by eight or so years, murdered in

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in the effectively in the city with limits of Rome.

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And you know, there are lots of reasons why the

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populace and the optimates quarreled. But in Caesar's day, like

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when he's growing up, he grows up in a sort

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of populist family. He is from a very noble line

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that does actually trace its lineage back to Aeneas, the

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mythic founder of Troy, which becomes important. On his father's side,

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the Julians are descendant of the son of Aeneas Eulus,

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and his mom's side is the Marquius Rex family, and

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they're descendant from one of the ancient kings of Rome,

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Ancus Marqius, very blue blood. However, you know he's not

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from his family, isn't like in the power elite. The

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power elite would consist of people like the Cornelius clan,

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the Mettelli, the Scipio's or branch of the Cornelius klan,

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and you know, you could keep naming names, but the

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Caesars are not or the Julius Caesars are not really

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in that. But his father does seem to be a

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promising politician, dies when Caesar was a teenager. But before that,

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Caesar's aunt Mary's the guy just mentioned Gaius Marius, who

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is this outsider from our penum, which is, you know,

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a city that enjoys Roman citizenship, but it's like halfway

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to Naples, and Cicero's actually from there, and he was

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the first new man in the Senate, or yeah, like

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the first at least the first person become a consul

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who wasn't from a consular family. Who didn't have console

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descendants in I think decades. I mean, it's very rare

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by this time for newman.

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Speaker 2: To come about.

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Speaker 3: And he built his reputation by challenging the establishment, but

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kind of became part of it as a populist. And

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you know he was he got rich sort of late

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in life from his provincial governorships. He got famous from

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just you know, conquering you Girtha and the Kimbrian the

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Gauls up on the northern border. But he got respectable

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by marrying into Caesar's family, poor but great name. And

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so Caesar grows up with Guius Marius as his uncle

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and as a further testament to his populist credentials. When

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he's a teenager, he this is very young for Romany.

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He's married like at age sixteen, very precocious, and he

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gets married to the daughter of Guius Marius is like

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right hand man or his closest associate in politics, Sinna,

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who is a consul at the time. And this is

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in the period of where well probably need to back

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up a little bit to explain who Senna is. But

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so Caesar grows up in this sort of rundown neighborhood

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the Suburah, and there's brothels and kind of c D

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nightlife in the Suburah. It's not a nice place to be.

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It's an old neighborhood. And so he kind of grows

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up with this deeper familiarity with the fringes and the

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underbelly of Roman society than you normally would get in

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a noble household. And I think that probably goes into

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his consciousness some degree. But you know, when the populists

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and the optimates first clashed, we could just keep going

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back and back and back, but it was around eighty

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eight BC.

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Speaker 2: Caesar's Twelve Guias.

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Speaker 3: Marius provokes Solah, the Optimate leader, who is about to

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lead an army off to the east and against Mithridates

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and Marius finnagels, you know, bi legal chick caanery, to

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have the command transferred to himself rather than Slah, who

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is the consul at the time. And you know, long story,

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short war breaks out. Solah marches on Rome and expels

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Marius as an enemy of the state, has a dozen

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or so of his associates executed, and kind of patches

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things up and then goes off east to fight Mithridates,

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and you know thinks that it's the situation settled, but

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it's only just begin begun and and and it's it's

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when Marius gets exiled or in eighty eight that Senna

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takes over as consul.

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Speaker 2: Marius has gone.

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Speaker 3: Senna is consul for three years in Rome and basically

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running a populist regime in Saula's absence. And that's when

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Caesar gets me to send his daughter. So Slah comes

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back in in eighty four, I believe he lands in Italy.

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Incredibly bloody civil war breaks out, I mean one hundred

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thousand Romans dead, and eventually he wins, and Senna gets

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assassinated sometime and you know, right before Sola arrives in Italy.

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And then Slah comes and marches into Rome after his victory,

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and he starts the proscriptions, you know, the famous campaign

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of listing your enemies on a placard in the forum

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and you know, putting a bounty on their heads and

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having their properties confiscated, and he's also calling other shots.

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He gets elected dictator, revives this old office very importantly

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that was defunct since the Punic Wars about one hundred

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and twenty years earlier to legal Roman office, but he

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also starts ordering people to do other stuff. Like Pompey,

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for example, is five years or so older than Caesar

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seven years and Pompy is a young, precocious son of

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a consul who brought Salah about a legion's worth of

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soldiers during the Civil War. Early on it was like

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kind of important to Sulla's victory, five thousand men or so.

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And after the victory, Salah says, Pompey, you need to

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change wives. I've got a better woman for you. You're

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married to the wrong woman. And Pompey says, yes, sir,

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And then he does this with a couple of other

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promising young men. Caesar, lucky for him, was too young

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to have fought on the side that he would have

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chosen in the Civil War, which you know, if you

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were like five years older, he probably would have been

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either killed or exiled or proscribed. And he Slah goes

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to Caesar and says, Caesar, you're married to the wrong woman.

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You're married to the daughter of my greatest enemy, the

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man that I blame for the whole civil war breaking out. Sinna,

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you know, in conjunction with Marius, was responsible. And Caesar

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says basically, screw you, and he quits town, goes into

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that the mountains. He's running away from Salah's henchman. Eventually

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gets dysentery, caught, bribes the guard who who caught him.

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They bring him back to his family, and his family

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tries to intercede for Caesar. Salah, you know, I know

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that you ordered Julius Caesar to divorce his wife and

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marry another woman.

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Speaker 2: But he's just a kid. He didn't know what he

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was doing.

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Speaker 3: We promise he's not going to cause you any trouble.

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Can you please just not execute this young man? And

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Sullah says, very well, famously, very well, but your fools

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if you do not see many of Marius in this boy.

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And I think that that incident shows a lot about

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Caesar's character, that he is, he knows kind of where

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he stands in politics, like his family has great populist credentials.

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His dad got to the praadership, probably would have been

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if he had been still alive during the war. Died

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kind of tragically. I think he was tying his shoe

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and so he dies before this all breaks out. If

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he had been alive, he would have been either killed

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or proscribed by Sulah, and the sons of proscribed men

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were barred from politics for the rest of their lives

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under Sullah's new regime. So Caesar would have been basically

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that would have been the end of his story if

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his father had actually been alive. Kind of like cruel

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but benevolent twist of fortune maybe in his favor. And

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so he knows if he stands up to Sullah, he's

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going to if he survives, which is very much not guaranteed,

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he's going to be the talk of the town. This

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is the kid that stood up to Salah. This is

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They're going to be talking about this for the rest

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of his life. And sure enough, you know, we know

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the story. Still it worked. But and so I think

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he already kind of has that taste for how to

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get people talking about him. But I think he also

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probably just liked the girl, and he was faithful to

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that wife, I mean, didn't divorce her, at least until

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she died many years later. He has his first and

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only daughter with her, Cornelia, And I think he just

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didn't like taking orders from people, you know, But he's

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kind of already picked his side very importantly in that

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in that story, and and sla ends up essentially rewriting

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the Constitution to resemble something like what he thought it

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had been, or what he he believed it should have

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been in the generations before. He takes the powers away

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from the Tribune of the Plubs, which was an important

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instrument in the hands of a populist that he kind

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of blamed for sparking off the war. And most importantly,

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you know, he's either murdered or made permanently or exiled

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or made permanently irrelevant in politics. All of his enemies

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and everybody kind of left in place are his loyalists.

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They're the kind of posts sola oligarchy, mostly old families

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who sided with him, the conservatives, some new people that

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kind of you know, become pillars of the establishments. And

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so that's kind of the regime that Caesar grows up under,

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this like cracked down a reactionary optimate oligarchy, and it's

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also the regime that he dedicates the rest of his

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life to overturning, and he eventually does.

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Speaker 1: So there are several things there that I want to

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talk about, particularly with the prescriptions, which is one obviously

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you've just kind of cataloged the political consequences, you know,

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the degree to which Sela was able to remake sort

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of the apparatus of power in his own image. But

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one of the I guess we could say kind of

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recurring traits of Caesar is obviously his clemency, but also

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his willingness to sacrifice immediate gain for political alliances, for friendships.

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So one of the things that I'm interested in, and

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I realized this is speculative. But to what degree do

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you think that that attitude was a reaction to the

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character of Celah And also to what degree did the

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prescriptions are seizing property sort of reinforce the pre existing

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oligarch right if you have gotten rich by taking other

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people's stuff, that creates a vested interest at least I

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would imagine in keeping that system around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: And well, to take the last part first, Socrates, when

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the thirty tyrants of Athens were doing something similar, executing

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and confiscating properties. The thirty, as he says in Plato's Apology,

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they were trying to get respectable men to share.

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Speaker 2: In the crimes.

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Speaker 3: They're trying to implicate them, you know, they try to

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get Socrates to go and summon some prominent citizen, you know,

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so that he would effectively have blood on his hands.

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And Salah knew this principle. Caesar later cited this very

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principle in his speech in the Calinarian Orations, like this

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is kind of what you do if you're establishing a

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regime on you know, blood and what people would normally

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call injustice. And uh, you know Crassus, the richest man

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in Rome in Caesar's youth, that's how he made a

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lot of his fortune. He's buying up these estates of

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proscribed men pennies on the dollar or asses on the

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talent maybe in Roman terms, and then reselling them at

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a huge profit. And he just he's flipping houses. Basically,

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he's a house flipper, and he makes it, makes a

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big nest egg that way. Catiline was also implicated crass

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has got the worst of it reputation wise, but you

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know it did, it did definitely, Like there were lots

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of people who who had profited from the system. And

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actually Caesar later is in is I think this is

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in the early sixties, he collaborated with Cato funny Enough,

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his Future and Nemesis on digging up crimes from the

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times of the proscriptions and prosecuting men for say, informing

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against an innocent man who had then got executed, and

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then they profited from their estate, and there was a

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lot of band aid ripping off, and you know, injustice

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to hunt out two decades later. But it worked for

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a while at least. And I think that Caesar's incredible daring,

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which you see again and again from his youth up

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to his well, his very last day on earth, I

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think has a lot to do with that sense of

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he was spared by fortune, you know, like he had

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already tested himself young, he had taken like the ultimate risk,

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like he was very close to being executed, and so

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everything else was just like he had destiny on side,

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like he had already kind of put the ultimate short

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term gain up for sacrifice to get the long term gain.

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And it's you know, it's a pattern that started very

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young for him.

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Speaker 2: And you know, he goes on to.

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Speaker 3: Win the Roman equivalent of the Medal of Honor as

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a young soldier in his early twenties, saving a citizen

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I think, in the Siege of Middelini. And but he

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does importantly, as I think you allude to, he I

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think that that is a big part of his clemency,

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about his mercy towards his enemies. He's everybody remembers Sulah.

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If they don't personally, if they weren't personally there, their

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dads told him about him. And so he's trying to

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make himself the Unsola for the rest of his life.

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He's he's going against the sla establishment in his political

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career and in his actions in the Civil War. He

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is very ostentatiously sparing people, you know, every now and

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then to his to his great detriments in the in

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the very end, but I think that's what he felt

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like he had to do, and for the most part,

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it set him apart. And it was definitely not what

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his enemies were doing in the Civil War either. You know,

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Pompey and his friends are talking about Saula did it,

321
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why can't we? And they're talking about, you know, rounding

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up the not even just their enemies, but even the

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lukewarm and the Civil War cause. And this this actually

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works very strongly against them. Like lots of people go

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over to Caesar because they know that he's gonna he's

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going to be easy on people who change sides. And

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it allows him to have enough credibility to like refound

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the state or put some stable things in place before

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he's assassinated.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that I I learned from

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your video I thought was particularly interesting is, and this

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is kind of a stupid way to say it, but

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it's like Caesar's first job, right, his first position of note.

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And so I'm curious, could you explain that first role

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and then the sort of bizarre situation that allows him

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to enter politics after initially being barred from it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you mean like his first military duties or.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, as a as a priest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is hilarious. So he gets.

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Speaker 3: I think this is probably I'm not sure when this

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relates to his marriage, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he gets.

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Speaker 3: He gets picked for a priesthood, and and it's a

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special kind of priesthood.

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Speaker 2: He's d what's the name of it.

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Speaker 3: It's escaping me for some reason, but essentially as as

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a priest of this class. I'll look it up just

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so remind myself. You are entrusted with a variety of

349
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sacred rights. But what you can't do is, I mean

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you have to, like if you clip your fingernails, you

351
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have to collect your fingernails and bury them. If you

352
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get your hair cut, you have to put the hair

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in a special spot and you know, consecrate it, and

354
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essentially gets this job that is like a kind of

355
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golden cage. It's the flomendialis is what it's called. So

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he's like a prelative Jupiter, and.

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Speaker 2: You had to live.

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Speaker 3: You couldn't leave the city under any circumstances. You couldn't

359
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even for two nights, I think. You can't spend time

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outside the city. You can't even see men under arms,

361
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and you have to wear a funny hat. So it's

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kind of like the people that gave him this priesthood,

363
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we're either trying to keep him out of politics or

364
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they're underestimating his ability. He's basically going to be, you know,

365
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a priestly type, and Rome is not the kind of

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place where every priesthood is like this, Right, he ends

367
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up being the pontiffects Maximus and Pompy's an augur CISOs

368
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and augur. So this is a very special, restrictive priesthood,

369
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the flammin dalis. It's very prestigious, but completely politically powerless

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and irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: And so.

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Speaker 3: Somehow I think it's it has to do with the

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the laws of Senna being abolished under Sulah. I can't

374
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remember how he gets out of it, but essentially he

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sees an opportunity and some laws are overturned and he

376
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gets out of the flammin dialis priesthood early on. But

377
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it kind of sets him apart, and it I think

378
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it kind of gives him this sense like that's how

379
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,799
it's kind of psychologizing, but that he's like different from

380
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other people somehow.

381
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Speaker 1: So perhaps the most we could say sort of famous

382
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episode in Caesar's early life is where he is captured

383
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by pirates. Where does that occur sort of in his

384
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,119
rise to power? And obviously what can we learn from

385
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,359
him from that? I guess from that episode?

386
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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Well, in a Roman's twenties, you're kind of

387
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in and out of military service. There's ten years from

388
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age eighteen to twenty eight of Tirocinium. You're a tyro,

389
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:49,599
a junior officer, you're often in the tent of a

390
00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:55,599
distinguished commander. And so there's various minor campaigns going on

391
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:01,799
in the Gan like cities that have sided with mithridates

392
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and revolting, or there's a lot of pirates in the

393
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Eastern Mediterranean. So this is before Pompey clears the seas

394
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:16,559
of pirates in sixty seven. That Caesar is out in

395
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in this kind of wilder circumstance in the Eastern Mediterranean.

396
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He's he's kind of in and out of He goes

397
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to study at Rhodes with the famous rhetorician who Apollonius Molon,

398
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who's also this guy that Caesar that Cicero studied with,

399
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and so he's kind of a student student.

400
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Speaker 2: Soldier, doing a little of this, doing a little of that.

401
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,799
Speaker 3: The pirates themselves are an interesting phenomenon because they are

402
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very much a product of the chaos of the civil

403
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:55,160
wars and the Mithridateic wars that were started under Sullah.

404
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,440
You know, Roman tax collectors and Roman businessmen and Roman

405
00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:06,039
governors are fanning out to the provinces exploiting the provincials.

406
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Towns that side with Mithridates in the war get extreme punishment,

407
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you know, they get colonized by the Romans. They and

408
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,480
there's all this like disorder and upheaval, and so a

409
00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:26,920
lot of normal respectable people are turning to piracy. It's

410
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,440
a rampant problem and plenty of not so respectable people too.

411
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So that's kind of the time that Caesar is is

412
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about in the eastern Mediterranean, and he at one point

413
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gets captured by these pirates. He's probably twenty three twenty five.

414
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And the famous story goes that Plutarch tells the pirates

415
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:59,759
were looking for just easy ransoms and they they had

416
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,559
I forget, I forget. If it's like ten talents that

417
00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:04,839
they were going to charge was a huge sum of

418
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,200
money to ransom Julius Caesar, and Caesars says that's too low.

419
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You should double it, and so he kind of taunts

420
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:20,319
the pirates and raises his price, which is kind of funny,

421
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,079
but it's also like it's it's real, and that the

422
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,359
more you get ransomed for, the more you're valuable, the

423
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,640
more valuable you are. This is how the ancient Greeks

424
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,920
defined honor, like in the Homeric period, in the poems

425
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,000
of Homer, your team a your honor is literally it

426
00:28:38,079 --> 00:28:41,200
literally means price in Greek, and it's it's a metaphor

427
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,640
drawn from drawn from commerce. And if like you can

428
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,519
actually quantify how much honor you have, it's literally how

429
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:51,079
much you get ransom for so Caesar knows this, you know,

430
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,759
and and he uses it and and the pirates up

431
00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:59,079
their price. Caesar eventually gets ransom, but before that he

432
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,799
is kind of chumming up with them sort of. He

433
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,480
writes these compositions while he's you know, under the deck

434
00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:11,000
in his quarters, and he comes up and he recites

435
00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:14,680
his poems and his speeches to the pirates, and you know,

436
00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:17,200
they laugh and he says, you all have terrible taste.

437
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,759
Someday I'm going to execute every single one of you.

438
00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:23,160
And they say, ah, Caesar, we love this kid. So

439
00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:25,839
he kind of has this rapport with him, and of

440
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,440
course he you know, when Caesar makes a promise, he

441
00:29:28,519 --> 00:29:32,400
intends to actually make good on it. And when he

442
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:38,680
got ransomed, he hired a boat, got some guys together,

443
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:41,119
found the pirates where he knew they would be in

444
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,599
their little cove, arrests them, and he takes them back

445
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:50,079
to the governor of Bethynia, who kind of drags his feet,

446
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and Caesar just kind of unilaterally takes them out of

447
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:55,200
prison and has them all crucified.

448
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Speaker 2: So, you know, he has to keep good on his word.

449
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Speaker 3: And I think you see this often and great men

450
00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:06,480
of history and especially the Romans and Greeks. They're often

451
00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:10,160
like they do some savage act of cruelty in their youth,

452
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:16,920
and they have that reputation of being extremely terrifying that

453
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:18,880
they can kind of be nice for the rest of

454
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,279
their career. And Caesar wasn't always nice, but he tried

455
00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:24,559
to be. But that was one instance where he proved

456
00:30:24,599 --> 00:30:27,759
that he was He was youth to be feared. And

457
00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:32,079
of course he mercifully slit their throats before he actually

458
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:34,240
crucified them, so they actually got a quick death, but

459
00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:39,200
the symbolic crucifixion was was gruesome and reserved for slaves

460
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,160
in the Roman period. So I think it gives you

461
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,000
a little flash of a lot of aspects of Julius Caesar.

462
00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great it's a great story. I mean,

463
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,839
there are several things to it. Which is one, there's

464
00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:56,599
sort of always an open discussion, right, how how alien

465
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,759
are the Romans, right when we peer back two thousand years,

466
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,559
how similar or different? And obviously, you know, human nature

467
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:07,200
being what it is, there are certain constants. But you know,

468
00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:10,799
it is sort of interesting right that from our perspective,

469
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,640
is moderns crucifying a corpse is sort of like well,

470
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,920
what's the point, right, Okay, I guess it's sort of disrespectful,

471
00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:22,319
but we don't have the same kind of emotional attachment

472
00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:26,440
in that way, right, it doesn't. Obviously it's it's grizzly,

473
00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:31,480
but it's nowhere near as significant. And also sidebar, I

474
00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:34,359
do think it is kind of funny that Caesar's great

475
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,680
Mercy is like, oh, well, I am still going to

476
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:39,480
kill you, but you know, at least I'll slit your throat.

477
00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:41,640
You know I'm no monster, right, I will still be

478
00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:44,599
crucifying your corpse, but you know, I'm a magnetimous man.

479
00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: And one of the.

480
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,839
Speaker 1: Themes throughout this part of the story, it is the

481
00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:58,480
sort of ineffectual and corrupt nature of the oligarchy. Right

482
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:01,559
in this specific instance, you see both the fact that

483
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,440
the local governor is way more worried about these prisoners' money,

484
00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:09,119
right what he can get out of it than actually

485
00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:13,599
ending the problem and the problem of piracy how that

486
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,480
will be solved is something else we see this oligarchy

487
00:32:18,079 --> 00:32:22,039
sort of wrestle with. So if you could, could you

488
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,359
speak about, you know, as you mentioned earlier, how the

489
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,960
seas are made safe and how the oligarchy sort of

490
00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:31,720
sought to keep that from happening.

491
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's really interesting, and it does bring at

492
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:40,640
that point because well, the guy who does it, as

493
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,359
I mentioned earlier, is Pompy, who's already Pompy the Great

494
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,640
by that point. I think it's an epithet Salah gave him,

495
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:56,799
and it's basically pirates are raving, raging, ranging all over

496
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,839
the eastern Mediterranean and all over the Western Mediterranean too.

497
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,599
Speaker 2: They at some point.

498
00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:07,599
Speaker 3: Capture the Consoles children from I think maybe they like

499
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,880
a consul like I, actually capture Roman magistrates in ransom

500
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,880
them from Italy. They burn the harbor at Ostia. I mean,

501
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,359
these guys are really out of control. And Pompy is

502
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:20,839
you know, you think of him in the later story

503
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,920
of Caesar as as his enemy and as the kind

504
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,119
of bastion of the oligarchy of the optimist, but at

505
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,599
that point in his career he's more of a populist.

506
00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:32,839
He's like a moderate populist and kind of an opportunists.

507
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,279
He's always trying to get himself these great, glorious commands.

508
00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:41,200
And so in sixty seven they're friends, Caesar and Pompey,

509
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,240
or at least on the same side against the establishment.

510
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:51,200
And the way that Pompey does the Pirate war is

511
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:55,799
he has to get himself voted this extraordinary bundle of

512
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,720
powers by a tribunary vote. And actually Pompey and Crassus

513
00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:02,799
and the consulship of seventy renewed the office and the

514
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,000
powers of the tribunet which had been you know, hamstrung

515
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:11,599
by Sola, and exactly to open up the opportunity for

516
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,039
this kind of thing to happen again. And it was,

517
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,440
you could say, it was that they wanted some tool

518
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,679
by which they could aggrandize themselves. But clearly the republican

519
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,519
system was not working because essentially the pirates are all

520
00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:30,559
over the Mediterranean, and any given Roman magistrate has only

521
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:35,480
a province, a provincia, like a sphere of duty that

522
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,960
is defined by a geographical unit, like you know, Italy

523
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,400
or Northern Italyst. Cisalpine, Gaul or Greece or Tunisia. And

524
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:48,239
they could the pirates who just like go to a

525
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,079
different place if a consul is sailing ships around the coastline,

526
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:56,159
and and so what Pompey has to do, or his

527
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,679
his plan at least was to get himself voted first

528
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:06,320
of all, massive financial powers. You know, he just has

529
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:10,079
like unlimited money to do whatever he needs. And he

530
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,800
has a remit of the entire sea and the coastline

531
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,840
up to I think fifty miles inland, which is you know,

532
00:35:21,039 --> 00:35:24,880
most of the Roman Empire, most of the territory, because

533
00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:27,960
all the interesting cities and all the wealthy places and

534
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,360
the civilized places are close enough to the coast. And

535
00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:34,280
so nobody had ever had that much power in the

536
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,320
Republic before, even though it was there was a term

537
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:39,239
limit on it.

538
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 2: I think he had three years.

539
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 3: But with that power, he's able to clean up the

540
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,079
problem in three months, like it wasn't actually that crazy

541
00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:50,719
heart of a problem. To solve you had to lock

542
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,679
down a number of bases and have both had this

543
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,719
kind of like amphibious capability where you have a huge fleet,

544
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,960
but you can also stay in armies to capture their

545
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,000
strongholds and smoke them out. And he also is very

546
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:08,199
merciful to a lot of the pirates. He resettles them

547
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,559
because he realized a lot of these people are sort

548
00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:13,519
of respectable people who had nothing better, no better option.

549
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,280
But it goes to show that, I mean, the level

550
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,400
of intransigence from the optimim establishment resisting this kind of thing,

551
00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:25,199
which was kind of kind of obviously what needed to

552
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,840
be done, I think was staggering. And there was a

553
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:32,079
like a riot breaks out in the Senate House when

554
00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:36,880
they're proposing this policy, and somebody almost gets killed in

555
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,119
the Senate House because everybody's like, oh, this is going

556
00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:42,519
to make Pompy a monarch, this is too much power. No,

557
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,159
this is against tradition, and you know, they're jealous among

558
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,840
other things. Maybe there's some legitimate concerns, but there's also

559
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,800
this powerful force of envy.

560
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:53,079
Speaker 1: You know.

561
00:36:53,159 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 3: The oligarchy, like any oligarchy, they are elitist in one

562
00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:03,079
sense that they're you know, better than the common rabble,

563
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,519
but in another sense they're highly egalitarian and that they

564
00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:09,920
they they there's a kind of tall poppy syndrome within

565
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:13,400
any oligarchy that they don't want anybody rising to too

566
00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:15,920
high to kind of rule over them. And so that

567
00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:20,280
spirit is definitely at play, you know, throughout the period

568
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,760
of Caesar's life, and especially like in this particular incident,

569
00:37:23,039 --> 00:37:26,280
and Caesar is one of the few voices that speaks

570
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,320
up in favor in the Senate of Pompey's policy. It's

571
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,440
it's actually quite unpopular and they have to ram it

572
00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:35,719
through the Popular Assembly and basically ignore the Senate, which

573
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,599
is legal, but you know, politically dangerous. The Senate can't

574
00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:45,360
actually it's limited in its ability to actually veto policies.

575
00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:49,239
But but Caesar is like one of the Loan supporters,

576
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,840
you know, early on allying with Pompey in a very

577
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,880
strong way because he wants he wants to kind of

578
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,880
break up this this stranglehold on politics that the that

579
00:37:58,960 --> 00:37:59,679
the oligarchs have.

580
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,519
Speaker 1: So this will be a slightly cercuitous question, but I

581
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:10,880
probably I promise it actually ties in. So last week

582
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:15,360
I got stuck in an absolutely horrible airline situation. My

583
00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:18,079
viewers have heard me complain about it a number of times.

584
00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:20,440
I won't go into it. The point is I was

585
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,639
in desperate straits and so stuck on an airplane. What

586
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:24,039
do you do?

587
00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 2: Well?

588
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: You watch the second Gladiator film, which is not very good,

589
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:32,920
although it is actually kind of an interesting film, not

590
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,400
at all for the reasons it's intended to be. But

591
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,440
one of the the interesting features of it is it's

592
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:46,639
sort of shot through with shoddy sort of a historical

593
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,920
republican propaganda. Yeah, and of course I don't mean like

594
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,039
Mitch McConnell. But the whole thing you know that this,

595
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,159
you know, this this character is is fighting for is

596
00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:01,599
the dream of Rome, right, and the dream of Rome

597
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,559
is basically kind of like the European Union, you know,

598
00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:12,960
this sort of like vaguely defined supernatural super national excuse me,

599
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,679
although that's probably a better term for it. Democracy. And

600
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:22,760
so I'm curious, right, to what degree do the sort

601
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:28,119
of closing years of the republic, to what degree is

602
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:32,760
it recognizable to us as a republic as some form

603
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:38,599
of representative democracy quote unquote, because you know, maybe in

604
00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:42,800
a slightly more academic than you you will oftentimes see

605
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,440
sort of attacks on Caesar from sort of like the

606
00:39:46,519 --> 00:39:50,159
Catonian perspective, right, the idea that you know, this, this

607
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,199
brute came in and and you know, blew up our

608
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,599
perfect democracy, blew up this system that was you know,

609
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,280
full of unique civic virtues. And in my mind, whatever

610
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,079
virtues that the Republic may have had at a previous

611
00:40:05,159 --> 00:40:09,559
era were largely absent by this time. It had become,

612
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:14,360
as you know, most systems tend to effectively an out

613
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,320
and out oligarchy. So not to poison the well, Alex,

614
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:18,639
but I'm curious to get your thoughts.

615
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's see.

616
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 3: One of the ways that the oligarchy that the republic

617
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,119
functioned was there are magistracies that are elected for a

618
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:42,599
year long term, right Consul Preet Quester, Eedel and by

619
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:49,320
Caesar's day, they are extremely difficult, I mean really impossible

620
00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:53,039
for outsiders to cash in on, especially Preet and Consul.

621
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,199
You can't really get elected unless you're from one of

622
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,840
the great families. Cicero was a rare exception, a new man.

623
00:41:02,519 --> 00:41:05,000
I don't know if there's any new men between Marius

624
00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:12,000
and Cicero. Cicero was Consulate sixty three and he only

625
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:16,199
got it because there was a kind of crisis of

626
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,000
the state and the Optimists saw him as the better

627
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:20,679
candidate than than Catalan.

628
00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: And so.

629
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,639
Speaker 3: The reason is so hard is because it's incredibly expensive.

630
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 2: There are.

631
00:41:30,199 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 3: Bribes to pay to voters, their bribes to pay to

632
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:35,920
political fixers.

633
00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 2: There are.

634
00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 3: You know, the oligarchs, these great families in the power

635
00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:46,239
lead control huge swaths of voters as their clients, and

636
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,800
you know they they'll have their pound of flesh to extract,

637
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:56,199
and so it's it's it's corrupt in that sense though

638
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:01,039
there's a kind of there's a kind of like symbiotic

639
00:42:01,159 --> 00:42:07,039
relationship between the rich, the bribing class, and the poor

640
00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:09,760
bribed class because they actually like to get bribes. This

641
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,280
is like when they get to feel relevant to the

642
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,199
political system by you know, selling their votes essentially. And

643
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,039
so a guy like Cato, who is a Republican stalwart,

644
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,480
and it's kind of a rare case of the moral

645
00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:30,000
compass figure among the oligarchy at that time, he's always

646
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:33,440
railing against some of these problems, you know, bribery and

647
00:42:33,639 --> 00:42:36,199
in elections, he's always trying to go on anti bribery

648
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,800
crusades with limited success, and eventually he caves, which we

649
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,519
can talk about in a moment for on behalf of

650
00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:48,920
somebody else. But like the reason that what makes the

651
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,639
bribery system work, Like why are they paying so much

652
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:55,519
for these offices? What's the ROI? Is it just prestige?

653
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,079
Sadly no, you are, especially as praetor and consul the

654
00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:07,840
higher office holders. After your term as a city magistrate,

655
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,920
you were sent out to the provinces to be a

656
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,840
governor and a pro consul or appropriator and those are

657
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,639
where those opportunities one, two, three years is where you're

658
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:23,000
supposed to make all of your money back, and then

659
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:30,400
some by you know milking, bilking. You know, the provincials

660
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,360
take bribes to rule on cases in a certain direction.

661
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:41,079
Maybe there are some local discontents that you can you know,

662
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,880
smash and plunder or claim that there are local discontents

663
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,440
so you can just march your troops in and take

664
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,280
all their stuff, and these all kinds of ways that

665
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,440
you can make money. There's a few legal ways, but

666
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,920
it's mostly just you know, exploitation, and this is how

667
00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:59,000
so much of the wealth of Empire comes into Rome

668
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:03,679
itself from these provincial governors making back their money, often

669
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,079
taking out gigantic loans from the money lenders that they

670
00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:14,159
need to pay back. So, you know, that's great for

671
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:16,639
the city of Rome and its inhabitants, but they've got

672
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,239
tens of millions of people that are their subjects that

673
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:25,559
they've claimed that they're going to be benevolent justice, bringing rulers,

674
00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:28,960
they are going to bring security and Roman law and stuff.

675
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,280
But it's a thin fig lea for what's really going

676
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,760
on in the eyes of many provincials, and certainly many

677
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,880
Romans themselves, and certainly it's not for the most part

678
00:44:43,079 --> 00:44:47,440
the populace, the poor or they're middle class benefiting from

679
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:50,639
these provincial exploitations. It's just rich guys getting richer and

680
00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:54,320
building bigger villas and having fish ponds and moving mountains

681
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,840
so they can have a little waterfall and their property

682
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:04,440
in Naples. And so these are, you know, the Republican system.

683
00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:09,280
There's not even the pretense that it represents the provincials.

684
00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:12,920
There is the pretense that it represents the Roman citizens,

685
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:14,880
you know, and that these people have voted for these

686
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:19,559
these figures. But it's mainly, you know, they're going to

687
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:22,400
do what they want to do, and they'll they'll serve

688
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,000
your interest in so far as they need to lock

689
00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:28,079
you in for a vote, but Briber usually handles that,

690
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:34,880
and so it's it's not a very meritorious place. That's

691
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:38,719
one of the things that Caesar eventually becomes very recognized

692
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:44,280
for promoting talented outsiders. Look at his officer corps and gaul.

693
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,599
Look at the men that were his right hand people

694
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:50,000
when he returned from the Civil War. A lot of

695
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:53,679
them are not from great families. Maybe they're damaged goods.

696
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,079
There was some scandal in their youth, and they fell

697
00:45:56,159 --> 00:46:00,800
from grace from the aristocracy. But for the most part,

698
00:46:01,159 --> 00:46:06,039
Caesar was indifferent to your family name and your background

699
00:46:06,119 --> 00:46:08,679
and how many consuls and praetors you have in your ancestry.

700
00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:13,079
And this speaks really powerfully to a lot of people

701
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,199
that feel like a republican system should be one in

702
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,880
which the best men rise to the top and rule

703
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,039
of state, the most patriotic and so forth, rather than

704
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:27,480
just the richest and most opportunistic. And because of the

705
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,320
I think it's also a feature that we can relate

706
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,760
to today. Because so much of the attention of the

707
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,599
oligarchs is based on this year long cycle of elections,

708
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,639
it's not really easy to have long term vision in

709
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:49,480
solving these difficult problems like provincial exploitation or you know,

710
00:46:50,159 --> 00:46:56,039
electoral reform. I mean, there's not really a stable class.

711
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:59,480
The Senate is supposed to be the balance against that

712
00:47:00,679 --> 00:47:03,199
that that the Senate has some kind of like permanence.

713
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,360
If you if you could become a quester in Rome,

714
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,159
you you enter the Senate for the rest of your life.

715
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,719
But they don't have They have a lot of influence,

716
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,800
like soft influence, but not a lot of like real

717
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,159
constitutional power. And anyway, if you if you get into

718
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:19,400
the Senate, I mean, it's just like our Senate today,

719
00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:22,039
Like there are senators and then there are senators, Like

720
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,679
some senators are more equal than others, and the power

721
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,440
brokers are going to make sure that the system stays

722
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:27,840
in place.

723
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 2: They don't want their client networks disrupted.

724
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 3: They don't want you know, the money lenders getting losing

725
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:34,679
out on.

726
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 2: Their their their their bribe payouts.

727
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 3: There's just so much inertia in the system, and there's

728
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:45,360
so many ways that the Senate that people, individuals in

729
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,400
the Senate can kind of fill a buster and gridlock

730
00:47:49,559 --> 00:47:53,800
politics to make sure that nothing ever changes. And sometimes

731
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,039
it requires a man of cunning and force like Julius

732
00:47:58,079 --> 00:47:59,760
Caesar to overturn that system.

733
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,559
Speaker 1: So I realized this is a very it's a big question.

734
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:11,440
So if it's overly vague, forgive me, But how do

735
00:48:11,559 --> 00:48:15,519
we go from Caesar as sort of this you know,

736
00:48:16,199 --> 00:48:20,480
up and comer in politics. Right obviously, you know he

737
00:48:20,599 --> 00:48:23,000
has this sort of famous oration given at the death

738
00:48:23,159 --> 00:48:25,800
of his is it his mother or his aunt?

739
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 2: I think he did he did one for his mom too,

740
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,440
But we know more about the one about his aunt.

741
00:48:31,679 --> 00:48:37,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, where he's sort of rehabilitating his his own family, right,

742
00:48:37,639 --> 00:48:41,760
figures that were sort of controversial being brought back into

743
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,119
the light. And well, how do we go from there?

744
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,760
Where he's sort of up and comer obviously, you know

745
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,000
he's collaborating with with Cato. You know, he's both making

746
00:48:52,079 --> 00:48:58,280
friends and enemies with his his prosecutions too, you know, uh,

747
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,280
conquering all of France, right, that's a big jump. So

748
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:03,079
how do we get there?

749
00:49:04,559 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 3: Well, I think it I trace it back to this

750
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:12,800
moment that people might have heard of, probably have that.

751
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,320
I think I take it in a different way. So

752
00:49:16,599 --> 00:49:20,639
this famous incident, he's a questered when he's thirty two

753
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:26,519
thirty three in Spain. So he's a chief of staff

754
00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:31,079
or something for a provincial governor, papers guy, and he's

755
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:36,159
off duty touring around an ancient temple of Hercules at

756
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,599
Kadi's and ancient temples were kind of like museums. There's

757
00:49:40,599 --> 00:49:43,320
a lot of artwork there. They're kind of enjoying the sites.

758
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,400
Maybe they burn a little incense to Hercules. But then

759
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:49,960
he's with his buddies and they move on and Caesar

760
00:49:50,079 --> 00:49:52,239
kind of gets stuck in front of the statue of

761
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,920
Alexander the Great, which is, there's a statue of Alexander

762
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,920
the Great in there, who knows and his friends look

763
00:50:00,039 --> 00:50:02,440
back and they say, Caesar, what are you crying? And

764
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:05,639
he says, do you think it's not a matter for

765
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,880
crying that? When Alexander was the king of so many

766
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,639
people's at my age, I yet have done no brilliant deed.

767
00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:17,000
And Caesar, this is only one of two instances we

768
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:19,880
know that he cried. The other was when he was

769
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,679
presented with the head of Pompey after the Battle of

770
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,519
Farcelus in Egypt. But you know, a god, I don't

771
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:33,239
think that he's crying there because he's like jealous or something.

772
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,239
It's often taken in that direction, like it's a revelation

773
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:42,599
of his towering ambition. Maybe, But I think actually he's

774
00:50:42,639 --> 00:50:45,159
probably having a moment where he realizes what he has

775
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,840
to do, like what he's supposed to do that even

776
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,639
though all of his career up to that point has

777
00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:56,440
been very promising, Metal of honor, the Pirate incident, He's

778
00:50:56,519 --> 00:51:01,000
prosecuted a lot of corrupt people in Rome. Already in

779
00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:05,039
his twenties, he's made a name for himself. He has

780
00:51:05,199 --> 00:51:08,559
just been screwing around his whole life. You know, it's like,

781
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:13,880
what have I even done? I gotta get serious, And

782
00:51:14,199 --> 00:51:17,800
so I see that as a kind of realization. He

783
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:24,639
comes back early from from his tour of duty as

784
00:51:24,639 --> 00:51:32,199
a quester to run for another office, and basically to

785
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:37,119
kind of fast forward how he really gets in a

786
00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:41,119
position where it starts to work for him is he

787
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,079
gets elected to the preadership as early as he can,

788
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:52,960
which is thirty six, thirty eight, it's sixty three, and

789
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,400
he's kind of coming out into politics in a really

790
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,719
really public way, kind of putting his flag in the dirt.

791
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,559
Is in the Catalinarian conspiracy, this is you know, I

792
00:52:07,639 --> 00:52:09,519
did a whole series on this, but you know.

793
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:11,039
Speaker 2: There was essentially a.

794
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 3: Coup plan underway by this disgraced senator Cataline, the conspirators.

795
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,360
Cataline flees the city after Cicero presents him with damning

796
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,880
evidence in the Senate, and he goes and joins an

797
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,719
army that they're planning to march on Rome with. And

798
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,960
they have guys in the city that are going to

799
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,519
throw up in the gates and set fire to a

800
00:52:33,559 --> 00:52:36,519
bunch of buildings and murder a bunch of senators, and

801
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:42,119
Cicero again he's console. He manages to round up the conspirators,

802
00:52:42,159 --> 00:52:44,920
present them too with damning evidence, and they confess to

803
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:50,119
their crimes in the Senate, and the decision is now

804
00:52:50,199 --> 00:52:54,320
put before the Senate should the consul execute these men

805
00:52:54,400 --> 00:53:02,079
without trial? The case that Cato makes is who who's quester?

806
00:53:02,159 --> 00:53:02,639
Speaker 2: At that point?

807
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,039
Speaker 3: The case of Cato makes he's a tribune anyway, is

808
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:10,440
that he is that the state is a great risk.

809
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,280
We don't know how many other conspirators there are. There's

810
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,960
an army, we've we've just been told a day's journey away.

811
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,000
This is no time to dottle and be soft. Let's

812
00:53:22,039 --> 00:53:27,079
execute these guys. And Caesar argues against execution. He says,

813
00:53:27,119 --> 00:53:30,239
it's uh, you know, it's unprecedented to execute a Roman

814
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,159
citizen without trial. There's a due process for these things.

815
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:37,280
Granted they could confessed, but the better thing to do,

816
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,079
and maybe even the worst punishment, would be to imprison

817
00:53:40,159 --> 00:53:44,320
them in because Romes don't do like long lifetime incarceration,

818
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,679
and you know, send them off to various cities around Italy.

819
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:53,800
And and Cato eventually wins that argument and they execute

820
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:59,159
the conspirators are executed. But Caesar has sort of taken

821
00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:04,119
a stand because a lot of the people that a

822
00:54:04,159 --> 00:54:07,719
lot of the Roman people sympathized with the conspirators. Basically,

823
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,400
they were populists who wanted to cancel debts, who wanted

824
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,119
to break up the oligarchy. But Cataline was not a visionary.

825
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:23,679
He was an opportunist, and he he didn't really have

826
00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:26,960
what it took to make this a good thing instead

827
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,599
of a violent, opportunistic bad thing.

828
00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 2: But he stood for things that people really cared about.

829
00:54:34,119 --> 00:54:39,199
Speaker 3: And so Caesar knows this, and basically from Catiline a

830
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,519
few months later being killed in battle and these conspirators

831
00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:46,840
being executed later that night, he takes on the mantle

832
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,079
of the champion of the people. I think it's a

833
00:54:49,119 --> 00:54:50,239
really important moment for him.

834
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:52,159
Speaker 2: People thought.

835
00:54:53,159 --> 00:54:58,760
Speaker 3: Cicero said he had evidence that both Caesar and Crassis

836
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,280
were actually in on the plot, but managed to keep

837
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:07,599
their hands clean. Crosses is Caesar's political patron at this stage,

838
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:14,639
and Cato made various insinuations in his speech against Caesar.

839
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,920
Caesar is he's working with them. You know, He's not

840
00:55:18,159 --> 00:55:20,559
able to really come out and say it because the

841
00:55:20,639 --> 00:55:23,440
evidence isn't quite there, and he doesn't want to expose himself,

842
00:55:24,119 --> 00:55:26,920
but everybody kind of thinks that Caesar's got something to

843
00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:30,800
do with this whole revolutionary thing, but he always has deniability.

844
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:37,000
But then on Cato kind of marks Caesar as a

845
00:55:37,119 --> 00:55:40,199
tyrant on the make, as somebody who wants to destroy

846
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:45,000
the republic, and Caesar just starts pushing harder, and he

847
00:55:45,079 --> 00:55:48,760
goes off to his pleadership in Spain. And we could

848
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,280
get to the triumvir in the SEC. But I think

849
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,000
it's worth contemplating that example. I think it's not a

850
00:55:55,119 --> 00:55:58,599
very well appreciated moment in Caesar's career that he really

851
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,199
was friendly with some some dangerous men already.

852
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 2: So here's my thought, Alex.

853
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: I normally try to keep these to an hour, and

854
00:56:10,559 --> 00:56:13,280
my general rule of thumb is I'd always rather do

855
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,199
two episodes where we have enough time, then one long

856
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,239
one where we rush at the end. So I'll have

857
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,440
to have you back soon, because I really do want

858
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,519
to discuss the tram for it, right, That's where things

859
00:56:24,559 --> 00:56:29,800
get really fun. If I can offer perhaps a brief suggestion.

860
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,880
I don't know if you have merch, but have you

861
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,519
seen those those yard signs that say, like in this house,

862
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:39,840
we believe. You know, if you could just you know,

863
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,039
remake one of those and sell it, it just says

864
00:56:42,119 --> 00:56:44,760
like Kato is a nerd. You know, you can kind

865
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,440
of go from there. I would buy it.

866
00:56:48,199 --> 00:56:51,679
Speaker 2: Cato was a cuck, Tompy was a week Wing.

867
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:55,519
Speaker 1: Just like throw some of the originals on there, like

868
00:56:55,639 --> 00:57:00,480
love is Love, just to keep people get Yeah, this

869
00:57:00,599 --> 00:57:02,599
has been fascinating and like I said, I'll have to

870
00:57:02,639 --> 00:57:05,480
have you on again soon because I have done what

871
00:57:05,559 --> 00:57:08,960
I tend to do, which is bring someone on to

872
00:57:09,039 --> 00:57:11,599
discuss something and then spend so much time talking about

873
00:57:11,679 --> 00:57:15,119
other interesting things we never actually get to it. So man,

874
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:16,800
where could people find you?

875
00:57:17,679 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love to come back, and you know, just

876
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,039
wind me up like a doll and I'll just keep

877
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:26,119
talking about Caesar for you know, so the end of

878
00:57:26,199 --> 00:57:30,280
my days. Cost of Glory is available wherever you get

879
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:35,800
your podcasts, Spotify, I've published a lot of the full

880
00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:40,239
audio set of the Caesar series is finally done. I've

881
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:44,840
got one more episode, a kind of reflection episode what

882
00:57:45,199 --> 00:57:47,719
does it mean? That should should be launching soon. But

883
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,960
that's all on like Spotify or Apple podcasts. But I

884
00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:54,400
have started doing videos and kind of getting through the

885
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,519
backlog of the recent episodes so you can find up

886
00:57:57,559 --> 00:57:59,159
to this time of recording.

887
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 2: Just did.

888
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,519
Speaker 3: Civil War Part two, so I did two biography. I

889
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:11,719
usually do three biography episodes per figure, and you know

890
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,000
part one, two, three. I did part one and two

891
00:58:14,039 --> 00:58:17,559
of Caesar, and then I did an interlude, a three

892
00:58:17,599 --> 00:58:21,039
part special series on the Civil Wars because he wrote

893
00:58:21,719 --> 00:58:24,039
the most important source on the Civil Wars, his Civil

894
00:58:24,079 --> 00:58:27,079
War commentaries. And then I just returned to part three

895
00:58:27,679 --> 00:58:31,079
of his biography where you know, the IDEs of March happened.

896
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:34,199
That's all available on Spotify, but it goes up to

897
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,440
part two of the Civil War right now on YouTube

898
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,800
with some maps and some you know, famous paintings and

899
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,360
statues and some some b roll. But yeah, you can

900
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:46,480
also find me at Cost.

901
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:52,639
Speaker 2: Of Glory on Twitter x wherever you get your Twitter well.

902
00:58:52,679 --> 00:58:55,679
Speaker 1: And like I said, I cannot recommend that series enough

903
00:58:56,159 --> 00:58:59,079
as someone who knows just a little bit about the classics,

904
00:58:59,159 --> 00:59:04,719
it's always great again have three hours at minimum right

905
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:09,360
of additional context because again right, like I can read

906
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,679
the primary sources, and in some cases I have, but

907
00:59:12,119 --> 00:59:14,119
you know, the advantage of having someone who knows this

908
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,000
back to front it can't be overstated, so I highly

909
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:19,280
recommend that you should check it out. As far as

910
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,679
my stuff, The Jay Burton Show available on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

911
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,480
anywhere you listen to podcasts. This is what I do now,

912
00:59:27,119 --> 00:59:28,760
and if you want to support me, you can throw

913
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,039
me a few bucks a month on Patreon, Substack or

914
00:59:31,079 --> 00:59:33,920
gum road. The advantage there is no ads, right, you

915
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,960
get the episodes early and ad free. The most consistent

916
00:59:38,039 --> 00:59:40,920
feedback I get on this show is wow, those ads

917
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,760
are annoying. Yeah, I know, I get it fair enough,

918
00:59:45,159 --> 00:59:48,159
but I got to pay my mortgage somehow. Alternately, you

919
00:59:48,239 --> 00:59:52,639
can check out our sponsor, Foxinton's Coffee, who makes very

920
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:55,320
good coffee. I had it this morning and if you

921
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,559
use code Jay Burden, I think it's fifty or no burden.

922
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,119
No Jay on that it is fifteen percent off, so

923
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,400
not a bad deal. You drink coffee anyway, Alex, Again,

924
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:07,280
this was a ton of fun, man. I'm looking forward

925
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:08,159
to that next conversation.

926
01:00:08,679 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Jay talk soon.

927
01:00:11,079 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: Everyonet home, keep your head up, good night. What