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Speaker 1: This is Jonathan Pegel. Welcome to the Symbolic World.

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Speaker 2: I recently recorded my interpretation of k P Hop Demon

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Hunters and watching that movie and thinking about what was

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going on in it and what it meant, and you

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know what, with the strengths and the weaknesses of it,

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it really made me reflect on the question of self esteem,

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self esteem culture and how it you know, the problem

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that it that that are in that vision, and how

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it is the same and how it is different from

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what I believe is kind of the true Christian ontology,

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the true Christian way of being. So I thought we

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could explore it for this month's patron video. And so

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before we start, thank you for supporting what I'm doing.

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And it is really through your support that I'm able

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to be able to do this. And it's given me

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a lot of latitude to start the press to do

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all the things that I'm doing. So I truly appreciate it,

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and so hopefully these extra videos are worth it and

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are fun for you. So, you know, since the nineteen sixties,

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there's a really wonderful documentary call The Century of the Self.

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It is definitely worth looking into. And that documentary what it.

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Speaker 1: Does is it.

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Speaker 2: It talks about a shift that happened in the nineteen

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sixties that was started a little bit before, where in

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some ways Freud's vision was inverted and this idea in

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some ways of the repressed person the idea because when

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Freud talked about repression, you talk about all these desires

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that we had, that we had, he was suggesting that

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we had to repress it. He could see that our

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desires were being repressed by the by the ego, you know,

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and the super ego. But he he said that this

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was absolutely necessary in order for society to function. What

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happened in the nineteen fifties and sixties that in some

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ways this vision got reversed and we started to develop

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the idea that you know, you should express those inner things.

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You should you should not repress your desires, you should

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not repress your your inner identities and your urges and

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all these things, but that you should, in fact, you know,

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embrace them, express them.

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Speaker 1: And so it shifted, it kind of switched.

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Speaker 2: It used a very similar structure as the one you

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could say Freud was using, but it flipped it upside

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down and it turned the idea of you could say,

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your desires, your idiosyncresies your differences into something that should

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not be hidden, you should not be ashamed of, but

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rather that you should put out there and express. And

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this transformation is a massive transformation, and it infects Christian thinking,

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and it leads us to you know, how can I

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say this? Like, it leads us into very strange directions

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where Christians don't realize what it is they're embracing, yet

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they embrace it nonetheless. Hopefully at the end, I'll try

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to explain what I believe is the true Christian understanding

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of this. It is in some way a fusion of

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the two, or you know, a mix of the two,

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of the two understandings, but one of the shift that

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happened where all of a sudden, you know, we are

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meant to embrace our difference. We're made to embrace our desires,

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were made to embrace youto syncrasy and not just embrace

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it but express it. Led to all kinds of phenomena

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which at first might seem disconnected, but that are all

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kind of connected together. Of course, at the outset is

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the spirit of rebellion, right, the spirit of rebellion, which

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informs things like rock and roll, which informs the hippie culture,

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because you kind of understand this vision of rebellion as

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a way in which you know, my secret desire, my direction,

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the thing that motivates me is being stifled right by society,

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is being stifled by the system, being stifled by social norms,

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and therefore I have to break free. I have to

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free myself from that system, and I have to be

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authentic and express myself. But what we mean by authenticity

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and expressing ourselves it would be different than what ancient

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people would have thought as authenticity. It is rather an authenticity.

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Christians believe in authenticity in the sense that you have

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to become your true self. But your true self is

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not identified with your thoughts, with your desires, with your passions,

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with all of that, but is identified with Christ in you.

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That is your That is your authentic self, right it

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is It is the goodness that you can move towards.

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Speaker 1: That's what makes you truly yourself.

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Speaker 2: But now we have this change, which is really this

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kind of embracing of all your little quirks, your your

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your your differences and all of that. So that so

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there's that first thing. If you think about the hippie

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rebellion and all of that is part of it. But

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the other part, which looks like it's contradictory but is

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actually the same, is mass consumer culture. So mass consumer

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culture is the same because mass consumer culture says, your

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desire is.

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Speaker 1: You, right, the thing that you want is what makes you,

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what makes you you.

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Speaker 2: In the old, in the ancient times, you would have

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thought that like your identity, in the sense that your

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participation in society. You're a man, You're I'm a Canadian,

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I'm a you know, I'm an Orthodox, I am you know.

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I have these roles, and those roles are the ones

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that would confer an identity on me. But when we

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move to this weird kind of self expressive self identification,

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one of the things that happens is that you have

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to embrace your desires, and the embracing of those desires

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turns into consumerism. And consumerism this idea that your desires

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are who you are is of course related also to

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sexual emancipation. These two things are very much in the

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same vision of this inversion of Freud's basic idea of repression,

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because in some ways the idea, the ancient idea of sexuality,

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is that in someone you have to restrain your desire.

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Speaker 1: You have to kind of constrain it.

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Speaker 2: You have to to bring it together and focus it

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so that it serves society in a marriage and having

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children in all of that, and that the other aspects,

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the other thoughts, the other desires that.

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Speaker 1: You might have.

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Speaker 2: And then we know that everybody has, you know, the

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desire that you could have for someone else's wife or

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for for someone of the same sex. So for whatever

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other weird uh thing that you could you could, uh

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could have thoughts over that flighting desires could come into

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your mind about. Then those have to be They have

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to be dealt with. They cannot be can I say this,

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They cannot be engaged in because they lead to dangerous things.

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This is will already help you start to see the

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difference between the Freudian vision and the Christian vision, because

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the Freudian vision is that you have to repress those

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You have to basically push them out. You have to

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in some ways almost pretend that they're not there. You know,

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you have to act as if they're not there and

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and kind of put them in the you know, push

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them into the unconscious or let them exist in a

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semi conscious realm where in the Christian vision.

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Speaker 1: That's what it is, the Christian vision.

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Speaker 2: You kind of see both in some in some ways,

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you have to be able to see them. You have

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to be able to identify these thoughts and see them

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coming at you, and then you have to let them go.

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Then you have to confess them. Then you have to

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kind of, uh, you know, consciously move away from them.

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And that is very different from repression. Repression is the

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semi conscious behavior of like no, no, no, not that, and

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then you just try to hold things away from you

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and pretend like that's not you and get offended and

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react and say, you know, and say, oh, I'm not

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you know, I'm not gay, or I'm not this, or

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I'm not I'm you know. And then you you have

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these thoughts that exist in the piffery that are pressing

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on you and you just try to push them away.

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Speaker 1: And you can see this if you watch American movies.

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Speaker 2: They love to represent the repressed person, especially as we

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began to embrace the expressing and the and the embracing

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of all these desires. They love to represent the repressed

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person as someone who's not realized, and a fully realized

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person is someone who embraces all of that and is

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willing to kind of integrate it into themselves. This can

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be of course formulated in a union sense of integrating

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the shadow, of course, which is also not a Christian vision.

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Speaker 1: Of how to do this.

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Speaker 2: But you can see how all of these things are

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kind of playing together, and it leads to a social narrative,

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a social narrative that will, like I said, lead on

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the one hand, to this worship of originality, you know,

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the worship of rebellion, this idea of the consumer, the

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consumer human, and then also the liberated sexual person, and

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all of these will go in directions that sometimes looks

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like they're fighting with each other, but they ultimately are

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actually they're actually based in the same vision. Part of

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that whole kind of reversal and that whole transformation is

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of course the idea of be yourself right and self esteem,

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and you have to find your true self and you

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have to be able to express your authentic self. This

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is something that happens in all the every single movie.

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And then the idea that in some ways this true

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self or this real self is in opposition to your

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family structure. Therefore, the exacerbation of teenage rebellion in society

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where we think that teenage rebellion is a is a

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normal thing that happens in every in every society all

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around the world, the way it happens here, it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: That is not actually true.

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Speaker 2: There are tendencies, of course, in in in the teenagers,

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which is that they in fact do want to become something,

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They want to transition into a role. But in many

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societies that would be managed through initiations and through incorporation

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into society, to giving responsponsibility, uh, to kind of stop it,

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not no longer treating the child like a child, but

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rather start to treat them like an adult, and therefore

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they create that transition and then they become their authentic

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and result self. But in a world where we have

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this weird inversion of desire and of authenticity that leads

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to the pattern of teenage rebellion, which is the teenager

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wants to be their authentic self, but their authentic self

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is is represented in people like what is it that

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you want? And what it is it that you feel?

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Speaker 1: And all of these things.

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Speaker 2: And of course as a teenager, that is an absolute chaos, right,

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it's in a kind of chaos, uh. And so we

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represent the family, the social norms, the school, all of

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these things as trying to repress.

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Speaker 1: The this authentic self.

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Speaker 2: Right, the greatest image of this, and it's horrible because

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it's a great movie, but the greatest image of this

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is the Breakfast Club, where you really get that idea.

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You know, you kind of have these broken teenagers that

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are all being in weird ways, oppressed by their parents,

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oppressed by the school, and now they have to be

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willing to express and discover their true self, you know,

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and to be free from the constraint of society, free

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of the constraints of their family.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: You can add to that, of course, free of the

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constraints of religion, et cetera, et cetera. Now, the thing

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is that human desires and human thoughts are indefinite. The

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things that can go through your mind, and the desires

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that you can have, the desires that can capture you,

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they are in fact indefinite.

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Speaker 1: And once you start to embrace the.

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Speaker 2: Idea that all your thoughts, that all your desires, that

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all the things that are that are capturing you in

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going through you, that those are you, and that are

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there are something, there are things that are part of

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your authentic self. Then if you follow down that road,

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it leads to all kinds of insanity, it leads to

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all kinds of problems, It leads to addiction obviously the

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first step. It leads to uh sexual degeneracy in the

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sense that you know, fetishization becomes part of your vision

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and the idea that you have these fetishized desires that

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express themselves in all kinds of weird ways, whether it's

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the hyper specialization of porn, whether it is you know, kind.

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Speaker 1: Of s and m and all of these these these.

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Speaker 2: Types of practices that are you know, the the result

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of embracing more and more extreme desires for either power

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or being acted upon all of these things. And you know,

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you can see all of the weirdness. And then also

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the consumerism and so obesity is downstream from the same problem. Right,

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this idea of consuming as being real, the idea of

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what your desires are, that is who you are. And

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therefore to deny your desires and to deny.

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Speaker 1: Yourself is.

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Speaker 2: To die, right, it is in some ways to die,

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to deny yourself. And it's weird because those the people,

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you know, it's like the let's say, the kind of

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really capitalistic fast food culture person is not necessarily it's

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maybe hated by the highly fetishized, you know, sexual deviant,

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but they have They are representation of the same basic issue,

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which is this weird reversal that happened after World War

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Two in the nineteen sixties of what it is that

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makes you you you know and what it is that

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makes you authentic. This of course the hardest one to

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talk about, but it's important that we talk about it

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is the mental health issue. The mental health issue is

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also downstream from this problem, which is the idea that

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you identify with your let's say mental illness. This is

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the extreme version of it, and so the idea that

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you need a diagnostic, right, and people, these young people,

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so many of them are like that. They're looking for

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a diagnostic. They want something to name the mental illness.

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And then our mental propensities, whether it is to be distracted,

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whether it is to be hyper obsessed on certain details,

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et cetera, et cetera, and all these panoply of possible

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let's say idiosyncrasies. People dive in and then identify with

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their diagnostic and then you hear people times like i'm adhd,

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i'm ocd, I'm autistic.

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Speaker 1: You know, all of these things.

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Speaker 2: Now, it doesn't mean that there aren't extremes of mental practices,

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and we all have our idiosyncratic mental habits. But the

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idea of all of these things now becoming your identity,

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what it does is it exacerbates it for sure, just

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like it exacerbates sexual desire, just like it exacerbates consumerism,

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just like it exacerbates all these other phenomena.

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Speaker 1: And it leads to this weird kind of obsession.

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Speaker 2: People have with their bugs, with their idiosyncrasy, and in

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some ways their desire to you know, identify with embrace

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you know, put that forward. You know people who who

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put forward there, especially young girls. I've noticed they all

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are trying to that. They put forth their diagnostic and

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so society and of course the you know, the final

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one is of course the LGBT stuff. The LGBT stuff

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is in some ways because it's so symbolized, because it's

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the rainbow, because it it is a kind of movement,

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It in some ways is the culmination of this entire

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way of thinking. The entire way of thinking that started

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in the nineteen sixties culminates in pride, right, this idea

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of being proud of your idiosyncrasy, of being proud of

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your idiosyncratic desire, being proud of the way you're different,

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the way you're fluid, the way you're not fixed, the

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way you're free from any type of gender conformity, free

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from conformity. And so the end all of that kind

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of rock and roll punk aesthetic ultimately culminates in this,

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in this final vision, the solution, you could say, people

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see the problems of some of these, right, so in

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some ways pride is a solution to the problem. So

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people see the issues of you know, identifying with your

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mental illness, although they do it identifying with their desires.

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Get trapped by your desires, get trapped by your anxieties,

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people identify with their anxieties, and just let that, you know,

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let that fosters hyper focus on their anxieties, and that increases,

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of course, the anxiety when you hyper focus on it.

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The solution is something like the image of you know,

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taking care of yourself, the image of self self care, right,

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this whole obsession with self care, and then ultimately the

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idea of self esteem, you know, and the idea of

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constantly affirming others in their identity. But their identity is

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this like idiosyncratic expression. So it's like, well, I have

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to I will affirm you in your thing in order

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to help you not be swallowed by by by this,

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but not be swallowed by the mental health crisile will

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affirm you in it. But all of this is like

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a feedback loop, and it all feeds back into each

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other and creates, of course, the problems.

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Speaker 1: That we're in now.

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Speaker 2: It's very difficult to break out of it because even

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Christians are taken up by this way of thinking. Even

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Christians will talk about and you see that Christians no,

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not so much talking about sin anymore, but talking about.

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Speaker 1: The fall as.

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Speaker 2: Almost like as if we're victims of the fall, as

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if we are. You know, we're broken, and we're all

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we all have our mental health problems, and we all

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have our relationship problems and all of this. In some

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ways we are victims and we have to free ourselves,

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like Christ says, you know, the truth will set you free.

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And therefore, you know, the coming out as becoming almost

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a parody of Christian thinking. But the coming out, you know,

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this kind of like I'm going to express my true self,

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which is actually this weird thing that's different from everybody

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else that I'm that I've been hiding until now, that

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I've been repressing.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to express it.

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Speaker 2: This has totally that's filtered in and it's filtered into

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Christian culture. And even people that don't fully embrace the

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full pride version of it, they tend to think that way.

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I tend to think that way. It's like, it's very

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difficult because this is the way. This is the world

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we live in, this is the world we've been raised in.

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You know, we want our children not to be ashamed

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of their idiosyncrasies. We want our children to be to

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be to have self confidence and to have self esteem. Right,

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you know, you think of that word self esteem, it's

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really interesting. It is really is not a Christian word.

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And so what is the solution? What is the Christian solution?

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And so the Christian solution is interesting because it's humility,

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and humility isn't the same as you could say anxiety,

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and humility is also not the same as self the

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kind of self deprecation that leads someone to suicide, for example,

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Humility is not the same. Humility can never lead you

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to suicide.

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Speaker 1: Why is that?

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Speaker 2: Because the problem with a lot of the self abasement,

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the or the kind of feeling of that people have

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of having a bad self esteem is because they think

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they actually are great.

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Speaker 1: That is, they or they think that they should be.

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They're disappointed in their faults, like they're disappointed in the

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way that they're broken, and they can't stand it, Like

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people can't stand to realize that they're not what they

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think they are.

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Speaker 2: Right, They're not the hero, they're not the super person.

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They're not and therefore that leads to a disconnect between

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what they think they should be and what they truly are.

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And that is the self esteem problem, right, That is

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the that is the problem that can lead someone not

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one of that the only problem. It's one of the

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problems that can lead someone through self deprecation to a

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kind of mental illness or a type of suicidality that

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is very different from the type of humility that the

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Fathers teach, that Christ teaches, that the Bible teaches that

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type of humility is rather not owning anything, right, you

364
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don't have self esteem. You try to focus your attention

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on that which is above you. You try to focus

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your attention on the play from which you've received, the

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gifts that you have, and you are honoring of that right,

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the idea that you abase yourself and say this doesn't

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come from me. Whatever I have is given to me

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from heaven. Whatever quality I have, whatever uh you know,

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ability I have is given to is given to me

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from heaven. And hopefully, by God's grace, I can submit

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that to a higher good. And if you take up

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that position, your vision of yourself and your humility will

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be very different from the kind of self hating teenager,

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because this form of self hate, or this form of

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not wanting to attribute, not being proud of my thing,

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it orders everything properly. And therefore you can see when

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you do that, what qualities you have that are in

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service of something higher and can be in service to

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something higher. And you also see in that stance, you

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could say, humble stance, what qualities are, what characteristics you

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have which are leading you astray, which are leading you

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towards misery and leading others towards misery as well. And

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therefore humility is Christian. Humility is a right position. It's

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a right positioning, and you have you actually have to

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stop thinking about yourself.

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Speaker 1: If you really didn't care about yourself.

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Speaker 2: In in the real way that that humility teaches you

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to do.

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Speaker 1: Why would you kill yourself?

392
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Speaker 2: But because if you do care about yourself or do

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you not care about yourself?

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Speaker 1: Because if you care about yourself.

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Speaker 2: But you're not what you think you should be, that's

396
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,720
when you really want to commit suicide. But if you

397
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if you don't really care about yourself and your eyes

398
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are focused on God, then what happens usually is that

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00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,759
you know you find your right place.

400
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: And you you you.

401
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Speaker 2: Know, you are thankful for the opportunities you have, for

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00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,200
the skills you have, and you you try to do

403
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,960
the best you can with that which you have. You know,

404
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,359
knowing that you can't do it on your own, knowing

405
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,640
that you don't own anything, knowing that you will fail,

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that you will make mistakes. Uh, and you you're not

407
00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:02,799
proud of your mistakes. You're not proud of the things

408
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,880
of the things that you mess up, but you know

409
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it's going to happen, and every time it does, then

410
00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:10,640
you become humble again and you ask for forgiveness and

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you continue on. And that creates a completely different mindset, right,

412
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a completely different mindset from the self esteem mindset. You

413
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could say, but it is difficult to embrace that. It's

414
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,200
difficult to engage in that way of thinking. You know,

415
00:25:27,319 --> 00:25:30,240
I like Breakfast Club, right, I grew up on it.

416
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I have, of course the natural tendency to do that,

417
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and I have to constantly remind myself what is the

418
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:44,799
true position and how our humility should be a joyful

419
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,640
gratitude for the gifts we have and a desire to

420
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put those in services of others and in the service

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of God. So hopeusiness was a good exercise to help

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you disambiguate our world. And you know, as the Kpop

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Demon Hunters video is going to come out, you'll see

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treat that and how in fact in that video, in

425
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,799
that movie, this is where the mistake is, right. The

426
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mistake is that they understand that these ideas of demons

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00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:13,920
and possession and soul taking is related to attention. It's

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related to singing in the sense of pattern making and participation.

429
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In pattern participation, bodies towards towards, you know, towards single

430
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,079
points that bring us together. But they reduce that to

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00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,799
self esteem and to celebrity and to the celebrity culture.

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Speaker 1: And so because of that it.

433
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Speaker 2: Comes to the door, and then it doesn't it doesn't

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actually deliver on what it could be. So so thanks

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00:26:41,799 --> 00:26:45,279
everybody for attention, and again thanks for your support and

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00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,279
I'll talk to you very soon.

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Speaker 1: How Hi.

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Speaker 2: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

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00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:52,759
the symbolic world dot com website and see how you

440
00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:55,920
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

441
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,880
with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, So

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00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,119
go to the Symbolic World and thank you for your support.