WEBVTT 1 00:00:17.480 --> 00:00:21.559 Hello, and welcome to Western CIV. In today's Bonus author interview, 2 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:24.879 I sit down with historian James McDougall, and we're talking 3 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:29.399 about his most recent book, Worlds of Islam, A Global History. 4 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:32.719 What I love about this book and what you're going 5 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:34.920 to experience a little bit in the interview, is that 6 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:39.200 it tries to put the rise and growth of Islam 7 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:44.600 into a overall world context. So often when we're talking 8 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:48.320 about history, we're trying to bracket it. You know, we're 9 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:50.759 going to talk about the history of India or Japan 10 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:54.679 or the Southern United States in a given period. That's 11 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:58.079 actually impossible, to be honest with you, That's like looking 12 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:01.159 at only a small section of a painting. At the 13 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:04.159 moment that you back up, you realize the scope of 14 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:06.439 what it is that you're supposed to actually be looking at. 15 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:10.760 And that's what this book does. I highly recommend picking 16 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.680 it up. It's available today if you're listening to this, 17 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:16.719 and the link is in the show notes. And I 18 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:20.000 hope you enjoyed the interview. And so after these brief messages, 19 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:24.040 my interview with James McDougall talking about Worlds of Islam 20 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:32.000 A Global History. All right, and welcome back. As I 21 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:36.079 mentioned before, I'm sitting down today with historian James McDougall, 22 00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:40.680 and we're talking about his most recent book, Worlds of Islam, 23 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:44.480 a Global History. Now there's a lot that we could 24 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:47.439 discuss with this book. It's several hundreds of pages, it's 25 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:51.159 very detailed. Anybody who's interested in learning more about this 26 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.000 subject or history in general, is going to love it. 27 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.359 As I mentioned before, but you know, we'll confine ourselves 28 00:01:57.359 --> 00:01:59.599 to a couple sections of the book today in order 29 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:02.920 to give a more coherent narrative so you can understand 30 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:05.920 what you might expect when you pick it up. But 31 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.840 I want to start with, I guess a pretty general question, 32 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:11.680 which is, you know, I think a lot of people 33 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:14.759 in the West have a lot of misconceptions about the 34 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.960 history and the spread of Islam, And I'm going to 35 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:19.680 ask you. I know it's a big question, I understand, 36 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:22.520 but if you could give, like what you think is 37 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:26.439 the number one misconception or something that you're constantly correcting, 38 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:29.560 I think that would be helpful for the audience for sure. 39 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:32.080 Thanks Adam. And yeah, I mean there are only big 40 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:34.159 questions right when you come to this topic, which which 41 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:36.199 is a good thing and also like a challenge, right, 42 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:39.919 And as you say, yeah, the book is just over 43 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:42.159 five hundred pages long, six in the pages or something, 44 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:45.240 so it's fairly chunky, and I cover fourteen hundred years 45 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:49.800 of history. So I think the main misconception that I 46 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:54.199 guess the book is trying to address, and then I 47 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:57.280 find myself often, you know, in teaching over the past 48 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:02.840 twenty five years addressing as well, is the assumption really, 49 00:03:03.639 --> 00:03:05.520 and it's not a prejudice or anything, right, It's just 50 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.039 an assumption that people just just come to this question 51 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:12.400 without even thinking about really or really noticing that they 52 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.240 hold this assumption that there is a thing called Islam 53 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:20.080 which has a completely separate history to a thing called 54 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:25.280 the West, right, and that it's an entirely self contained, 55 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:33.159 civilizationally defined kind of monolith, this history of Islam. And 56 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:37.599 I think one of the ways that you know, the 57 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.479 book is trying to change the narrative on that is 58 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:45.319 by pointing out that what Islam means and what it 59 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.479 means to be Muslim has in fact changed radically and 60 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.759 has always been enormously diverse over the whole of Islam's history, 61 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:53.719 and you can't understand the history of what is meant 62 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:56.159 to be Muslim in the world, or what being Muslim 63 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:00.199 has meant to people in the world, without understanding the 64 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:02.759 multiplicity of different worlds in which they've lived, which of 65 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:11.159 course includes things other than Islam. It includes you know, politics, ecology, trade, migration, languages, cultures, food, 66 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:14.199 and of course other people who are not Muslims with 67 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.519 whom Muslims have always been in relation. So that's the 68 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:20.160 number one misconception, that there's a thing called Islam that 69 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:22.879 just moves the history, that's kind of fully defined as 70 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:26.120 a religious system that has its own separate civilizational history, 71 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.879 and that can so be understood separately from another world 72 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:33.279 of the West. I want to say that Muslim history 73 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:35.560 has always been intertwined with other worlds. 74 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:42.079 I think that's probably a misconception no matter what we're 75 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:47.240 talking about, Honestly, whatever period, you know, we teach courses 76 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:51.439 like the United States history from xperiod to experiod or 77 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:54.279 European history as though you can kind of separate those 78 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.879 things and put those things into these nice boxes. But 79 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.560 reality is is that's never men are realistic for anyone 80 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:05.279 of course, one of the things, yeah, go ahead, no, no, 81 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:05.680 that's right. 82 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:07.480 I mean and of course, you know, to a certain extent, 83 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:10.199 those things, as you say, are inevitable, right, So partly 84 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:12.399 it's a it's a convenience of the way we think 85 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:14.199 about and teach the subjects. And because you know, no 86 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:18.240 one can be an expert and everything, we tend to compartmentalize, right. 87 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.319 And also because people need usable histories, people and just 88 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:25.879 just kind of to be a regular kind of informed citizen, 89 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:27.959 but especially for interested in history, you need a kind 90 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:30.959 of usable narrative, and usually that narrative takes a particular 91 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.560 and chronological form and takes a particular geographical or cultural center. 92 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:37.319 One of the things that global historians have been doing 93 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.199 in the last twenty five years is to problematize that 94 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.240 a bit and to look at what happens when you 95 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:44.120 start looking at things that move rather than things that 96 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.519 are centered. So, I mean, yeah, it's absolutely right that 97 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:50.560 it's completely inevitable that we have those kind of centered, 98 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.600 compartmentalized histories, and they're very they're perfectly legitimate, right, I'm 99 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:55.839 not saying that that's not a legitimate way to do history. 100 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:58.959 And of course for learning history, it's a it's a 101 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:04.000 kind of essential first step, but it does mislead us 102 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:06.560 when we start thinking, especially in terms of the significance 103 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:10.879 of history for contemporary issues about the world is separated 104 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.680 into these different civilizational compartments. And of course, in the 105 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:15.759 you know, since the nineteen nineties, we have this kind 106 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.720 of narrative of the world going through a clash of civilizations, 107 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.759 which has been politically enormously problematic and I would say, 108 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:28.600 you know, dangerous and actually quite pernicious. And so again 109 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:30.240 one of the things that again the type of the subtitle, 110 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:31.600 because of global history, and one of the things the 111 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:33.720 Global Historian has been trying to do is to rewrite 112 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:37.319 some of those histories to look at connections rather than compartments. 113 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:40.959 And I hope that listeners understand it does say it's 114 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.720 a global history, and that's you know, the subtitle of 115 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.160 the book, and I think that's really important for people 116 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.399 to understand because that's very much the focus. Well, let's 117 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:52.800 kind of go back to the early chapters here. I 118 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:55.720 want to start to talk about the unbelievable expansion of 119 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.879 the First Caliphate, because you know, listeners of the show 120 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.959 will know, you know, how I have an affinity for 121 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.800 the Roman Empire. I talked about that a lot but 122 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:08.439 you know, this caliphate expands over much of the known 123 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.959 world faster than it takes the Romans just to defeat 124 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:14.199 the Carthaginians, you know, just just simply across the pond. 125 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:16.399 And I want to read a quotation here from the 126 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:19.839 very beginning of the introduction of your book says, quote, 127 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:23.240 when ubig in Nafi, not sure about that pronunciation, reached 128 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:25.519 the Atlantic Ocean, it said that he galloped straight into 129 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.319 the sea. Big had been or born only a few 130 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:31.879 years before the death of Prophet Mohammad fifty years earlier now, 131 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.120 in six point eighty one CE, he led an Arab 132 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.879 Muslim army that set out from southern Tunisia and skirmished 133 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:43.279 with Byzantine forces as far as Tangier. We're talking about huge, huge, 134 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.839 rapid expansion here, really that only the Mongols are going 135 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:48.959 to sort of come close to, Like, how do we 136 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:50.120 put that into context? 137 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:52.959 That's a that's an excellent question. And at the same time, 138 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.759 of course, as Ukber, this guy you're talking about, which 139 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:58.079 is the Atlantic, he's the first Muslim conquer worth you like, 140 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:02.839 to reach the far west of Morocco. At the same time, 141 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.160 other Muslims are reaching just as far further east right 142 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.560 from Mecca and Medina, and the kind of original point 143 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:11.000 of where Islam came from at you know, as far 144 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:14.120 as the borders of India. So that is an extraordinary 145 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.079 expansion only in the first sort of fifty fifty two 146 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.920 hundred years right of the Caliphate, And indeed the most 147 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.560 significant expansion really is much much quicker than that. Even 148 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:28.519 the prophet Mohammad dies in six thirty two of the 149 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:31.519 Common era, right only ten years after the New era, 150 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.679 the Islamic calendar that he's created is inaugurated and the 151 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:40.960 first community is founded. And by the six forties only, 152 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:42.759 you know, ten to fifteen years after the death of 153 00:08:42.759 --> 00:08:49.080 the prophet, the Muslim Arabs have collapsed the Persian Empire 154 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:53.759 and driven the Roman or Byzantine Empire out of Egypt, 155 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:56.440 Palestine and Syria right up to the borders of what's 156 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.159 now modern Turkey, where the border between the Caliphate and 157 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:02.399 the Roman Empire, the Basant and Empire will remain for 158 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:06.960 the next three centuries. And I guess there were three 159 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.799 things before we need to take into account. And before 160 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:11.440 we take our three things into account, we also need 161 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:14.720 to remember that for the Muslims themselves, the early expansion 162 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:16.720 of the Caliphate or the establishment of the Calivate and 163 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.120 then it's territorial expansion out of the Arabian Peninsula and 164 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:23.360 into what we now know is the Middle East could 165 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:27.159 only be understood by, you know, by reference to it 166 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:29.240 as being the work of God. Right, they see it 167 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.639 as only understandable as a work of divine providence, you know. 168 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:35.720 And the same way as the Pilgrim Fathers think of 169 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:37.840 you know, that the way that they come to establish 170 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:40.600 themselves in America as only understandable as a work of 171 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.559 divine providence. These are things that are astonishing on a 172 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:48.720 world historical scale, and often human consciousness itself has been 173 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:55.720 inadequate to understanding them. And that sense of, you know, 174 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.279 the early expansion of the faith as being literally the 175 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.960 work of God is really important to understand in the 176 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.279 ideological self perception that those early Muslims have of themselves. 177 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.240 I think that's the first thing to say. Obviously, that's 178 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:10.200 not a historical explanation. That's the kind of the way 179 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.440 that they saw themselves. If we think about it historically, 180 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.120 there were three things that are important. One, I think 181 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:19.320 is the community of Muslims themselves, and that the significance 182 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.600 of that ideological self understanding that I just referred to 183 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:27.039 in motivating the community in its early expansion. This is 184 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:29.320 a community which is found as a kind of persecuted 185 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.559 group of exiles by the proper Muhammad in the city 186 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.440 of Medina in western Arabia, and which within only two 187 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.919 within a generation, really becomes this kind of mobilized, highly mobilized, 188 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:46.200 highly ideologically cohesive, conquering force. The leading historian of the 189 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:50.600 early Conquests, Fred Donner, wrote that the early conquest, so 190 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:51.919 I'm going to quote from him. He says they were 191 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:56.879 a remarkable testament to the power of human action mobilized 192 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:00.080 by ideological commitment, in other words, what people can do 193 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:02.120 when they put their minds to it. Right. So that's 194 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.679 one explanation that there's this extraordinary ideological cohesive force of 195 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:07.639 what it means to be Muslim in this early period 196 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:12.919 that gives people this extraordinarily kind of mobilizing energy. The 197 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.080 second thing is again to to go back to what 198 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:18.279 you said earlier about context. There has been a major 199 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:22.720 superpower war between the Romans and the Persians which lasts 200 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:24.480 for twenty five years, right a quarter of a century 201 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:26.600 between six o three and sixty two eight of the 202 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:29.320 Common Era, which really which is a crisis. In six 203 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.840 twenty six, when the Persians are besiege in Constantinople, it 204 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.120 looks like the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, which 205 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:38.480 still thinks of itself as continuous with the classical Roman Empire. 206 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:40.120 You know, these will call themselves what a mayoi, This 207 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:45.080 be Greek, but they call themselves Romans. That they're almost 208 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.919 at the point of collapse. That's then averted when the 209 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:51.679 famous Roman emperor Heraclius, whom I'm sure you and your 210 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:55.320 listener so familiar with counter attack spectacularly gets to the 211 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.320 gates of testifon the Persian capital and almost takes the 212 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:01.159 capital itself. The Persians have to suit. They're exhausted. The 213 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:05.879 Byzantines have exhausted crucially within within the Persian or Sicanian 214 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:09.159 Empire that the end of the war in the six 215 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:14.360 twenties leads to a collapse of the empire. Effectively, there's 216 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.559 the collapse that internally fragmented, there's a coup in the capital, 217 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:22.960 that their territory has been occupied by Roman forces. The 218 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:24.799 empire is kind of on the verge of collapse. The 219 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:27.919 Banzaron Tines have just won the war, but they're also exhausted. Right, 220 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:29.720 They've been paying very large amounts of money to keep 221 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:31.759 armies in the field for a very long time. They've 222 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.559 had their richest provinces in Egypt and Syria taken away 223 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.120 from them for a long time. They've been under Persian occupation, 224 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:41.440 and so when the Arab suddenly appear in the six twenties, 225 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:47.399 six thirties, early six forties, they're facing a much weakened 226 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.000 Persian Empire and also a Byzantine Empire that can no 227 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.440 longer afford to keep large armies in the field. They 228 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.960 do field a couple of quite significant armies, especially in Syria, 229 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.879 but those armies don't stand up to the Arab attacks, 230 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:02.679 and then and then they basically get withdrawn because they 231 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:04.679 can't afford to keep them in the field anymore. And 232 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.000 that the third final thing is what is it like 233 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:08.879 to be conquered? So one of the things that we 234 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.279 know about the early conquest is they're very rapid, especially 235 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:16.720 in Syria and Palestine, and with relatively little bloodshed. Right, Certainly, 236 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.120 there's there's there's pillaging, there are people who are masacred 237 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:22.200 in the countrysides, but most of the major cities of 238 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:26.679 Rome and Syria and Palestine. So Jerusalem Damascus negotiate with 239 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:28.720 the our bamis to the gates and let them in. 240 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:33.120 They've just gone through this war, been occupied by the Persians. 241 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.200 They don't want to see this it is destroyed by 242 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:38.799 another conquering army. So they basically cut a deal, and 243 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:44.360 of course, the Caliph Omar enters the city of Jerusalem guarded, 244 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.080 has it guarded tour of the Temple Mount at the 245 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.159 hands of the patriarch of the Christian Church, Sophronius, who 246 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:53.279 takes them up and shows them the sites. And that's 247 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.600 another explanation, right that the world into which the Muslim 248 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.759 other conquerors come is one which is already undergoing something 249 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:01.960 of a er geopolitical crisis. And it's also one in 250 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:06.360 which people are, you know, not necessarily predetermined in their 251 00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:09.399 actions by any sense of kind of religious antagonism. Right, 252 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:11.440 They're perfect. You've partegy deals with each other, and that's 253 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:11.960 what happens. 254 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:17.240 Yeah. I always find this period in history so fascinating because, 255 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:21.080 you know, as the Arab armies explode onto the scene, 256 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.519 I always kind of make this analogy. It's almost as though, 257 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.159 you've got two heavyweight boxers who have been slugging it 258 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:30.200 out back and forth, round after round, and they've both 259 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.360 landed significant blows and they're both exhausted. And then suddenly 260 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.679 a third boxer walks out onto the ring and he 261 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:40.440 totally rested, totally ready to go, you know. And so 262 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.759 you've got these two champions, but they're tired, you know, 263 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.440 and they've fought a lot. And I think you get 264 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:48.799 at something really important here, which is, you know, we 265 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.840 tend to look at the map of the Roman Empire, 266 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:53.919 the map of any empire at n see it's well, okay, 267 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:55.919 well it's read from here to here, so that means 268 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:59.120 there's total control. But actually within all of these cities 269 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:03.080 and communities, there's local elites and factions, and you know, 270 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:06.120 they're looking out for themselves at the end of the day, 271 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:08.080 you know, and if somebody else shows up with a 272 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:11.720 strong army and they don't have protection from whoever whoever's 273 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.399 color is over that section of the map right now, 274 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.799 you know, it's much more likely that a cut of deal, 275 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:18.159 you know. 276 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:21.639 Then Yeah, so that's right, And so one of the 277 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:24.440 things is that your third boxer is also incredibly nimble 278 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.759 and agile and very and very motivated. Right, So he's 279 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.519 much smaller than the other guys. That's very significant. We 280 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:32.679 think the Alabamas are pretty small, not more than about 281 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.639 ten thousand men probably. They're very mobile, they're very they're 282 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.039 very disciplined, certainly, and that you know they've been in training. 283 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.159 So that your your your third boxer is nimble, he's agile. 284 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:45.679 He's a lot smaller, but he's more like can he 285 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.200 can he can land some pretty rapid kind of stingy blows, right, 286 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:52.000 And that's right. The other thing is, and also in 287 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:55.480 particular this is relevant to the Eastern Roman Empire, the 288 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:58.960 Byzantine Empire. One of the things that's been happening religiously 289 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:01.399 for the last couple of times in those territories is 290 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.679 there's enormous split within the Christian Church. Right. There have 291 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:09.080 been a not very you know, sometimes quite violent doctrinal 292 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.120 disputes over the nature of the nature of the person 293 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.080 of Christ, the relationship between Christ, between the Father and 294 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.519 the Son, what it means to be you know, a Christian. 295 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:23.200 And many people who are what historian Princeton Jacksnese called 296 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.600 simple believers or no people are in the countryside, who 297 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.039 are not literate, who do not you know, who have 298 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:32.039 a sense of themselves belonging to a particular Christian community, 299 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.120 but do not have a strong, you know, ideological understanding 300 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:40.480 of doctrine or of the issues that are being fought 301 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:43.960 fought out in these church councils over heresy and orthodoxy. 302 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:51.480 They're actually surprisingly receptive to an incoming religious system that 303 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.879 is not going to persecute them anymore, because frequently they 304 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:56.919 have been persecuted. One of the things that the byzant 305 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.799 And Empire has been doing is declaring that certain beliefs 306 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.320 are Orthodox and others are heretic, and they've been persecuted 307 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.240 in the heretics. And interestingly, when the Muslims turn up, 308 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.599 they're perfectly've pared to tolerate everybody's religious opinions as long as 309 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.400 they stay in their place, pay their taxes, you know, acnology, 310 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.920 Muslim supremacy, and don't cause trouble. 311 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.240 Yeah, it's very interesting, you know, because the Byzantines, as 312 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:26.920 listeners of the show, no, we'll go through the iconoclasm 313 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:30.599 period and we didn't even mention this, but of course 314 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.359 in the sixth century, you know, the Byzantines and assassinates 315 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:37.359 have also been racked by the plague, you know, and 316 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.000 that's you know, sort of sapped their strength in addition 317 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.920 to several abortive efforts by just Anian to retake the West, 318 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.160 all of which costs money, all of which cost soldiers, 319 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.119 you know, So it's not you know, we have again. 320 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.799 This is so important because we're going about the global context, 321 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:56.519 right and put and putting this these these sorts of 322 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:58.759 things into images where if you take a snapshot, you 323 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.759 probably come out with one image of what happened in 324 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:03.759 a period. But if you back the lens out even 325 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:06.240 a little bit, you start to realize that there's actually 326 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.240 a lot more people in the picture than I thought 327 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.759 that there were. Yeah, exactly, it's really important. 328 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.839 I think that is important. The plague, yeah, has been 329 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.559 significant part. And it doesn't it probably doesn't help the 330 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:17.279 Albs that much because the Arabs suffer from it as 331 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.279 well when they when they arrived in Syrian past time. 332 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:21.839 But but it certainly has weakened the Byzantines. One of 333 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.640 the things that you need if you're a late ancient 334 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.960 empire is a large prosperous agrarian you know, population to 335 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:29.559 provide you with the tax base that keeps your empire 336 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:31.880 afloat and keeps your armies in the field. And you 337 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.039 know the effects of the plague is certainly to depopulate 338 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:38.200 some of those provinces that have been paying the taxes 339 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.039 that keeps the Byzantine armies in the field. So although 340 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.440 they are able to put troops in the field, you 341 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.720 know in Syrian pasta, indeed, Heraclius is there for a 342 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:51.200 while commanding those armies himself, they their taxpace is definitely 343 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.519 shrunk a lot, and they and they don't have the 344 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:55.759 resources that they need to fight yet another war having 345 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:56.400 just won one. 346 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.160 Yeah, so important. Now, in in the book, you write 347 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.920 about how in the years after it emerged from the 348 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.240 Arabian Peninsula, Islam had become a global force in two ways. 349 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.319 Could you explain for the listeners what were those two 350 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:13.400 ways and why were they important? 351 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:16.160 Yeah? So, what I mean by that is, and I'm 352 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.480 using this word global you know a lot. So let's 353 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:20.319 be a little more specifical what I mean by it 354 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.279 in that sense. What I'm what I'm saying is that 355 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:28.559 global is cultural and it's geographical. So there's a there's 356 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:33.720 a kind of cultural culturally globalizing impetus to Islam if 357 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.880 you like, which is that Islam is a universalizing religion. 358 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:39.119 It's a missionary religion, if you like, in the same 359 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.039 way that Christianity is for Muslims. The vocation of the 360 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:43.920 believers to bring the word of God to the whole 361 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:47.440 of humanity. And when Nephew, the little bit that you quoted, 362 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.680 you know, from the beginning of the book, rides you know, 363 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:51.720 into the Atlantics because he kind of sees himself as 364 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.599 carrying that message. If the Atlantic Ocean had not prevented him, 365 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:56.720 he would have written on to the ends of the Earth, continuing, 366 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.559 you know, to bring God's message to human to humanity. 367 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:02.680 So there's a kind of there's a there's a universalism 368 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:07.039 implicit in Islam, which makes it potentially global or globalizing force. 369 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:12.119 It has a reach unto the ends of the earth, 370 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:18.160 right kind of universalizing religious message, and more basically more 371 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.960 materially geographically, Islam also becomes a global force in that 372 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:28.359 it does reach out. All these Muslims move out globally 373 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:33.640 from the birthplace of the faith and the Western Arabian 374 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.079 Peninsula into what we now call the Middle East, across 375 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.799 North Africa, across Central Asia and into South Asia, and 376 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:43.039 then ultimately across across to Mariatim, Southeast Asia, to the Philippines, 377 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:46.799 to China, to Western East Africa, and then to you know, 378 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:49.680 to Europe and to the Americas and to Australasia and 379 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:52.640 Japan and to basically, if we're looking at you know, 380 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:57.319 the expansion of Islam globally today into basically every country 381 00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:59.720 in the world. So there's a there are two ways 382 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.759 in which which Islam is a global force or has 383 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.799 a global history in that sense. Part of course we've 384 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:08.640 just been talking about the way in which we need 385 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.000 to understand Islam contextually is part of global history, of 386 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.759 the history of the world's into which it comes. And also, 387 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.480 you know, the vision of Islam for the world is 388 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:20.359 one that kind of comes into the whole of the world, 389 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.000 both culturally and geographically. 390 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:25.559 One of the things I'm always interested about, and I 391 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:27.799 know there's these are these are tough questions because we 392 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.880 don't necessarily have a lot of historical sources for I'll 393 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:33.960 put in an air quotes common people or you know, 394 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.559 Anon elites. But I'm always interested as to whether or 395 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:40.319 not we know, you know, what was the rapidity with 396 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.720 which people were willing to adopt a new faith. You know, 397 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:48.039 this is an ideologically driven religion. How long you know, 398 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.079 did let's say Christians in Egypt or anywhere like, like, 399 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.920 how long were they willing to hold on to and 400 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:57.359 I know obviously some do forever, but you know, at 401 00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.680