Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're.
Speaker 5: Coming to you live from the Montclair Library, Prince William County,
beautiful Commonwealth of Virginia. Everybody, thank you so much for
joining us today for this live podcast.
Speaker 3: Everybody give us a round of applause. Please.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it's deafening, all right. It's also freezing here,
but not in this room.
Speaker 3: Our hearts are warm. We Hope.
Speaker 5: Thank y'all so much for joining us today. We really
appreciate you coming out. I got on a very cold day.
Not as cold as where he lives, but.
Speaker 3: Still it's pretty cold.
Speaker 5: But thank you for joining us here at the True
Crime Mini con. And thank you very much to the
Prince William County Library System for generously allowing us to
participate in this event. We really appreciate it. For those
of you who are not familiar with us, I think
most of you are familiar with us. How many Mind
of a Murder fans up in this room?
Speaker 3: Yay?
Speaker 2: Wait, let me ask you another question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2: Who's here from law enforcement? Oh? Nobody? All right, we
can speak frankly.
Speaker 3: Where we hope in the FBI is going to roll
in on us.
Speaker 2: We know they listened to the podcast. I know this
for a fact because they've objected to things we've said
on Mind over Murder.
Speaker 5: And we'll object to more probably probably, Yeah, we'll shoot
for that.
Speaker 3: For those of you who are not familiar, I'm Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 5: I'm a podcaster, I'm an advocate, I'm a writer, I'm
a teacher, and somehow or another, six years ago I
started doing this with him, but I've had a lovely
time ever since.
Speaker 2: That's referred to as a lapse in judgment.
Speaker 3: Yes it was.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. I'm the brother of Kathy Thomas, who,
together with their girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, are the first two
victims in the so called Colonial Parkway murders down Williamsburg Way.
I'm trying to make it sound like I'm from Virginia.
Speaker 3: We don't say anything like that.
Speaker 2: No, you don't. Okay, Hell, we were it up in
New England. You'd say down Williamsburg Way.
Speaker 3: We say over yonder.
Speaker 2: Oh. I got to work on that, all right. You
can help me with your colloquial expressions.
Speaker 3: Look at you.
Speaker 5: In case you were not familiar with our podcast, we
launched in January twenty twenty. We were a pre pandemic podcast.
We did not start because of the pandemic. We started
for it. Please note we are in our what did
we decide?
Speaker 3: Six season?
Speaker 2: Yes, six season just started.
Speaker 5: And we are Bill didn't pick a little bit.
Speaker 3: We do not technically have.
Speaker 5: Two million downloads yet, but we're almost there, so close
to two million downloads to date, and we are dedicated
to exploring and discussing all aspects of the criminal justice system, forensics, investigations,
specific cases, his sister's case in particular. And we are
your number one source for information on the investigation into
the Colonial Parkway murders case. Others may say they're number one,
but they're lying.
Speaker 2: We are the best correct true, that's true.
Speaker 5: And our goal also is to be advocates for victims
and families who are seeking answers and justice.
Speaker 2: I like it so far. What else have you got
to say?
Speaker 5: I do want to make sure that we thank all
of our supporters who are here today for this live event.
You did not have to come listen to us on
a Saturday. I'm sure you have many better things to do,
but you did come, so thank you very much, especially
to everybody who came from Williamsburg Way.
Speaker 2: Well, what do you say, over over yonder, over yonder?
You'll lay some of this other stuff on us as
we unfold here.
Speaker 3: How to talk?
Speaker 2: Okay, the way you're supposed to do, the way you're
supposed to do.
Speaker 3: Thanks, I'm an English teacher, man, What do you expect?
Speaker 2: Okay? Is yonder in the English dictionary? It probably is?
Actually it is.
Speaker 5: It is what we wanted to talk about today is
we wanted to talk about what it means to be
an advocate, because we do consider ourselves to be advocates.
We also wanted to make sure that we acknowledge the
fact that even if you are not a legal, licensed
victim's advocate, you can still be an advocate. You do
not have to be holding a license in order to
make your voice heard about anything that you are particularly
passionate about. What we wanted to do today with this
presentation is discuss us the various ways that you can
be an advocate for the cases and causes that you
care about. But we are going to frame it around
the work that Bill and the other families in the
Colonial Parkway murders case have done to advocate, or the
thirty eight year run of this case.
Speaker 3: So far, fair enough, all right, let's go to it. Then.
Speaker 5: One of the things that I think is really important
when we talk about advocacy is that neither of us
believe in gatekeeping, because there are many different approaches to
advocacy and they are all valid. We don't believe that
advocacy is limited to those who are licensed victims' advocates,
and we do not believe that you need to be
personally touched by violent crime to be an advocate. Both
of us have been, obviously Bill's story, I have been
touched by violent crime, But that does not mean that
somebody who hasn't been cannot be an advocate.
Speaker 3: You can be an advocate.
Speaker 5: Because you're a concerned member of the community. So, given
that statement, how many of you would consider yourselves to
be advocates for a case that you care about?
Speaker 2: There we go, that's probably half the room.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. There is no gatekeeping involved with advocacy.
Speaker 2: How many of the people that raise their hands have
been touched directly by violent crime? A similar number, maybe
not fully half the room, but forty percent. Maybe we
know that.
Speaker 5: It is tough when you have been touched by violent
crime in any way, whether you were a victim or
you knew someone who was victimized, and so advocacy is
very important for a number of different reasons. So we
wanted to talk today about what does it mean to
be an advocate and how can you make yourself useful
in various ways as you move forward through your advocacy journey.
Speaker 2: Something that's worth mentioning too, is that there are currently
three hundred thousand cold case murders here in the United States.
That number comes from the Murder Accountability Project, and this
is something that people like the United States Department of Justice.
Not only are they not talking about it, they don't
want to talk about the fact that there are three
hundred thousand unsolved cold case homicides. Beyond that number are
additional tens of thousands of sexual assaults. This is where
we've heard about rape kits going untested. The United States
quite frankly, has done a terrible job of investigating cold
case homicides and sexual assaults. I'd like to see that change.
We have a long way to go as a country
to move forward investigations into cases like ours.
Speaker 5: And one of the things that you can do to
make sure that happens is use your voice. Everyone here
in this room has a voice that they can use
for good, especially considering that we can harness the power
of social media. So we encourage you if there is
something that you're passionate about, whether it is a case
that personally affects you or just something that has occurred
in your community, use your voice because otherwise we are
not holding law enforcement accountable for the job that they
need to do, and the best way that you can
be an advocate is just speak out and speak up.
So we want to talk about advocacy tools, and then
we want to frame this in terms of the tools
to the Colonial Parkway murders families, particularly Bill, who has
spearheaded a lot of this, are advocating for their case,
both from the cases very beginning all the way up
to now thirty eight years later. There are a number
of different paths to advocacy. Victims or survivors of violent
crime and then secondary victims, which are the family members
and the friends affected by the crime, have different approaches
to advocating for their case, and that is perfectly okay.
Those approaches are going to differ from those of concerned community,
members of the media and podcast community, and members of
law enforcement.
Speaker 3: Again, no gate keeping.
Speaker 5: There are any number of different ways to be an advocate,
and all of them are valid and all of them
are effective. So we want to take a little bit
of time and look at the ways the Colonial Parkway
murders families.
Speaker 3: Have approached advocacy.
Speaker 5: These tools might work for you as an advocate, and
if they don't, that's okay. There are a lot of
other approaches that may work, and that's something that you
have to figure out for yourself. When we're talking about
the Colonial Parkway murders. The families in this case have
advocated for their case in six different ways. They use
social media to their best advantage, and we can talk
about forming the social media for this case. They work
with the media reporters both like broadcast to media and
print media. They have formed their own advocacy foundation. I
don't know if we've spent a lot of time talking
about f fact, but I do want to get into
that they've encouraged investment and involvement from the wider community.
They've encouraged investment and involvement from the true crime community,
which now of course includes us, and we use our
voice through podcasting. It was a little bit of a
fear for us when we first got started, or at
least it was a fear for me. I don't know
about you, but I was terrified at the idea of
doing this when we first started in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: Was this something that freaked you out or were you
just gung ho for it?
Speaker 2: I was excited about it, although those first couple of
episodes I think we sounded a little shaky, but I
think we got better at it. It's just like anything else.
It's not rocket science, and you can figure it out.
I think I was gung home, but I was also
a bit nervous in the beginning. But here we are
sitting at your kitchen table.
Speaker 3: Yes, we did not start at a studio or anything
like that. We started at my kitchen table.
Speaker 5: We did the first six episodes from my humble kitchen
in Williamsburg, and now we podcast separately for anybody who
doesn't know our setup too. Bill is in Connecticut, I
am in Williamsburg, and so we podcast through the roadcast.
Speaker 3: Are you going to take them in and explain what
this dim actually is?
Speaker 2: So we actually do the podcast remotely, and so it's
Kristin and Bill and then we off and they have guests.
Bruce Goldfarber has been a guest on our podcast. As
a matter of fact, we saw great presentation earlier from
the ATF and the US Marshalls Service about the trained
dogs that they use. Now, I don't think we're going
to get much out of Poppy, the dog in question,
who was here today. They were so fascinating. I asked
them if they'd be willing to do the podcast, and
they said, Kristen already asked us because one of the
things we've tried to do with Mind over Murder is
I don't want to just talk about the Colonial Parkway
murders every week. And we've met these amazing people, investigators,
forensics experts, so many different people who've educated us about
what's going on in the Colonial Parkway murders, but also
in the true crime space altogether. So if there's an
opportunity to talk to an author who's written a book
about a fascinating aspect of crime, there's another opportunity. So
what we've tried to do is take advantage of these
fascinating people that we've met along this journey and talk
to them and listen and learn, because I think one
of the best things for us to do is find
really smart people that are doing interesting things and that
can explain them to us. So Kristin and Bill are
learning something, and hopefully people that are listening to Mind
over Murder are doing the same thing. We're typically on
the Zoom platform. Kristen's and Williamsburg. I'm in Norfolk, Connecticut,
which is a little tiny town in the northwest corner
of Connecticut. For two, it is the ice box of Connecticut,
and it's right about that right now with minus two.
The other night. If we have a guest, that person
is also typically participating in the zoom call. The technology
has improved tremendously, and I think it was at the
beginning of COVID. I don't think I'd ever even been
on a zoom call. Maybe once or twice. Now it
seems like just part of everyday life for people in
professions across the country. Works really well for us, so
we'll try to have an interesting, thoughtful typically a three
way conversation. Sometimes we'll have two guests. After that it
starts to get a little ungainly a few too many
voices going on. It served us well. So I've got
this roadcaster made in Australia which is designed for podcasting,
and it allows us to record and then edit the
podcast before.
Speaker 5: You hear it, and it allows us to be mobile
so that we can do these wonderful live events. Yeah,
all we have to do is pack up the board
and the mics and he sets it up and we go.
So yeah, I think advocacy through podcasting has become our medium.
It's become our niche for sure, but there are many
other ways, and I.
Speaker 2: Should remember to thank the FBI and Virginia State Police
analysts who we know listen every week the mind of
a murder, just waiting for us to say something interesting.
We're inappropriate or outrageous, but we'll get to that.
Speaker 5: One of the best ways that you can advocate, as
we all know, is how important it is to harness
the power of social media, and you can do it
through any platform. Some platform obviously are more popular than others.
Some have seen a decided downturn in the last couple
of We won't be naming any of those, by the way,
But any way that you can harness a social media
platform to get information about your case out there is
a really solid way to start advocating.
Speaker 3: The Colonial Parkway.
Speaker 5: Murders families run essentially four different social media pages. We
run the Colonial Parkway Murders Page, which is where we
do all things Colonial Parkway Murders. The Call family more
than the Haley family, but I know the Haley family's
in on it too. They run Whatever Happened to Richard
Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. They run the it's largely
defunct now but still out there. Colonial Parkway victims gone
but not forgotten. And then of course we run mind
over murder.
Speaker 2: But one thing I want to do is I want
to give props to the Call and Haley families. This
is Keith Call and Cassandra Haley, or two of the
victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. Note the long, kind
of slightly ungainly whatever happened to Richard Keith Call and
Cassandra Haley. It's a mouthful. They launched this on Facebook
at a time when Facebook wouldn't let you use the
word murder on Facebook, which is why the title is
long and doesn't mention murders. As far as I can tell,
and we've done a fair amount of research on this,
I believe that the Call and Haley families are the
first family to use social media in an unsolved murder
anywhere in the United States. So they started because they,
as our friend Joyce Call, Canada, Keith's sister says, we
didn't know what to do. We wanted to keep the
conversation going and Facebook was a new thing back then.
They started by putting up articles that what was happening
with the case, and they would encourage people to ask
and answer questions on social media, and no one had
ever done this before as far as I can tell now.
Of course, their true crime is everywhere. At the risk
of making it sound like our case is a thousand
years old, it's thirty eight years old. This is a
case that predates It predates DNA being used in forensic applications,
this predates social media. All of these things have come
along later, and a lot of things that we all
accept as important but tools that we use every single day,
these things literally didn't even exist at that point.
Speaker 5: If you're looking to advocate for a case that is
close to your heart, we encourage you check out social media.
My students always say that only the old people hang
out on Facebook, and.
Speaker 3: She's probably not wrong.
Speaker 5: But you always check on Facebook and see is there
a site dedicated to this case already? And if there isn't,
you can be the person to start it. There are
plenty of families out there, like the Calls and the Hallies,
who do not know where to start when it comes
to getting their case out there. So if you are
someone who can offer that of expertise, even if it's
just I know how to set up a Facebook page
or an Instagram page.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that is a great place to start.
Speaker 5: And we would encourage you to reach out to families
if you don't see their case being well represented and
say I am very concerned, how can I help you.
I think most families would be open to that, wouldn't
you say?
Speaker 2: I think it's very important that people get involved in
their local communities and follow what's going along. I do
grown to Kristin from time to time about this blankety
blank multi platform world. Usually when I'm trying to find
a message from someone that sent to us on one
of ten different platforms, and I'm like, was this on
x or what was it on threads or blue Sky?
It just goes on and on, and it's usually when
I'm trying to backtrack and find out how did that
person message us and how do I find what it
is they said. We actually had a discussion last night.
We had a quick dinner and Kristen researched a guy
that had reached out to me and said, you don't
want anything to do with this guy.
Speaker 5: No, no, And we're always grateful when people reach out,
although sometimes I'm doing a little bit of research may
indicate to us that maybe someone is not the best
person to represent our interests.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 5: Turned out to be the case with this person we
researched last night. But that's another story for another time.
Another way that we have I think very successfully, And
I'm going to put all of this down to my partner.
Speaker 2: Oh is this blame now? Are we blame casting?
Speaker 6: Now?
Speaker 3: This is me giving you a lot of kudos.
Speaker 5: The amount of media attention that our case has gotten
is down to you and your perseverance and your ability
to build networks and connections with people. We have local
media partners WTKR, WABY, and so many others, and those
partnerships are things that you have made an effort to
reach out and maintain every time something big happens in
the case builds.
Speaker 3: Who do we call? Do we call Andy Fox? Who
do we call?
Speaker 5: Let's find so building partnerships with reporters who covered the
case start to finish. There's no finish yet. Andy Fox,
for example, is one of our biggest allies when it
comes to media reporting. We have partnerships with local print media,
We have relationships with a ton of different podcasters, and
that really is like that's down to you.
Speaker 3: I'm an introvert.
Speaker 5: You, however, are like the consummate extrovert, and you do
an amazing job with all of this networking.
Speaker 2: Thanks. We were on El Jazeera, the English language feed
for El Jazeera the other day, and we'll send out
links as soon as they're available. But it was fascinating
was myself and three other people from the true crime space.
Two of them are also podcasters, and they reached out
to us because they believe it or not, are following
the Colonial Parkway murders and they wanted to know if
I would participate in a conversation about ethics and true crime.
Here I am talking to a control room in Qatar,
if I'm saying that, And they were unbelievably professional, and
I was blown away by the fact that they would
reach out from literally halfway around the world to ask
for our observations about what we think is going on
in the true crime space. Is very interesting conversation something
that I'm happy to do because we only have a
limited number of ways we can keep pushing on the
Colonial Parkway murders, and the media is one of our
strongest allies.
Speaker 5: The one thing that we have learned that the FBI
does not like very much is media attention on the
things that have not gone well. So anytime that we
can call attention to, hey, here's this thing that has happened.
Here is a lead, for example, a connection to the
Colin Cassandra Haley case that was not mentioned in the
initial press briefing last year, we are quick to call
them out on it. And the one thing the FBI
hates more than anything else is having it pointed out.
Speaker 3: They mess this up.
Speaker 2: For the benefit of the FBI analysts who are listening today,
We're not going to list all the problems in this
one podcast, but I promise we'll get to them.
Speaker 3: We're going to be in so much trouble.
Speaker 5: I the next slide is actually you're gonna have to
spend a little bit of time on this next one.
Speaker 3: Here about f.
Speaker 5: FACT, because this is well before.
Speaker 3: I got into this.
Speaker 5: Another thing that I think is very unique about the
Call and the Haley families, because again they were really
at the core of this, is they formed their own
advocacy foundation. They started an organization called f FACT, which
is Families and Friends Against Crime Today, and they started
this in nineteen eighty nine. After the final incident in
the Colonial Parkway murders, the Phelpslower murders in New Kent County.
They started it out my understandings, they started it as
a support group. They said they wanted to bring about
more in depth investigation of unsolved murder cases or missing
pursing cases.
Speaker 3: They worked together with.
Speaker 5: Local congressmen and delegates to help create a permanent task
force to investigate. It wasn't just the Colonial Parkway murders.
It was twelve different murders and missing persons cases in Tidewater,
some of which are still unsolved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually the majority of them are still unsolved,
which is a real shame. Calls in the Haleys, and
we're very close to those families. These are just average people.
They lost loved ones. But they began to realize that
this was happening to a number of different families in
the so called Peninsula area, the Williamsburg area, and they
just didn't feel like they were getting any traction with
law enforcement. But they found by joining forces with other
families who had also suffered similar losses, they were able
to begin to create alliances and they worked with members
of Congress and they worked with members of the House
of Delegates to introduce legislation at the state level and
to really pressure Virginia State Police and the FBI to
put more resources into those cases. Now, ultimately all those
cases are not solved, but we have had some significant strides.
These are grassroots organizations started in the Call's living room
where they got together with other families, shared stories and frustrations.
It started out as a support group, but ultimately it's
actually proven to be a very effective tool.
Speaker 5: I love that you emphasize that term grassroots because advocacy,
as we said at the top of the pod, it
does not have to be a big, official, licensed thing
with a huge group of people behind it. Advocacy can
be you starting a social media page, you starting your
own advocacy organization.
Speaker 3: There are ways to do this.
Speaker 5: That allow you to take ownership and feel a sense
of purpose and a sense of power when it comes
to making sure that your voice is heard. It can
start very small. Like you said, it started in the
calls living room.
Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over Murder. Will be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
mindover Murder.
Speaker 5: One of the other things that is very important in
any case is the investment and involvement of the community,
and that very much is something that is still on
the minds of people in Tidewater, Virginia.
Speaker 3: Wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2: I would say so. My biggest concern is that we
meet hundreds and hundreds of people. We're always trying to
push back against a notion, meaning I think where people
will say I thought they solved those cases, or they'll
even mention a suspect and they'll say, oh, I thought
that was Fred Atwell or whomever. We need to constantly
be beating this drum that these cases are not solved
or they're not completely solved. So you see the electronic
billboards there of the reproductions of those gigantic electronic billboards
along the highway. Not my favorite in terms of a
visual but these generated a ton of tips. And this
was a family initiative. This wasn't paid for by the
FBI or the Virginia State Police, and quite frankly, I
don't think they liked it, and I don't care. We
raised the money. We talked to the local billboard company
and said could you drop these ads in and they
rotate through. This generated a ton of additional phone calls
and emails with tips to law enforcement. We're not going
to wait for law enforcement. We've been waiting for thirty
eight years. We're just going to keep pushing whether they
like it or not.
Speaker 3: The other two items that are right up here on
the screen.
Speaker 5: One is a missing poster for Cassandra and Keith, and
these were papered all around the area right.
Speaker 3: After their disappearance.
Speaker 5: And then the framed one right up there, if I'm
not mistaken, that is still up in the Glocester Courthouse
post office. It is this community, the Tadwater community, is
very invested in these cases. The only way that has
happened after thirty eight years is this concerted effort that
is being made to keep this case in the public eye,
whether it's through the electronic billboards or now our way
through the podcast.
Speaker 2: Being frank as always, law enforcement doesn't always like this.
They have strenuously criticized us behind closed doors. I've had
it thrown back in my face. You have a book
that you're working on, you've done television series, you've got
a podcast. You think you're going to solve the Colonial
Parkway murders, And of course I stopped them. We don't
usually swear on the podcast, so I won't either, but
you'll get the gist. And I said, we're not here
to solve the Colonial Parkway murders. That's your job. So
don't think that we think we're going to solve the
Colonial Parkway murders. No, we think we're going to keep
talking about the Colonial Parkway murders until you solve the
Colonial Parkway murders. I can't clap handcuffs on some suspects somewhere.
We're just civilians. But we're going to keep talking about
this until law enforcement steps up, and you know something,
the pressure works. I know they don't like it because
they've said so. At the same time, after waiting for
answers for thirty eight years, I think we have every
right to say whatever needs to be said to keep
this case moving forward, whether law enforcement likes it or not.
Speaker 3: Amen, good job.
Speaker 5: I do want to just take a moment and digress here.
Bill had mentioned that he's working on a book. He is,
but I did not know until a couple of minutes
ago when we were talking off their How long this
book is, Bill?
Speaker 3: How long is your book?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's just a manuscript and it's only nine hundred
pages right now. Obviously I'm going to need an editor
before we publish, but I'm actually hoping that we're going
to have more happy endings. Maybe that's a positive outcomes
before we actually publish a book.
Speaker 3: I had no idea this man had written nine hundred pages.
I had no idea.
Speaker 2: Good things you learn about your podcast partner?
Speaker 3: Goodness?
Speaker 5: Nine hundred pages and I don't that's an exaggeration.
Speaker 2: No it's not. But there's new chapters to be written,
so obviously the whole thing's going to need to be
squeezed down a little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, to say the least, I thought.
Speaker 2: I might try to compete with the Magna Karta for length.
Speaker 5: We also want to make sure that we acknowledge the
really wonderful work of our colleagues in the true crime community.
If you can get someone in the true crime community
on your side and interested in your case, it will
do no end of good. You can ride a whole
entire wave just by getting the right people involved. Unfortunately
for us, we have had amazing partnerships from day one.
Speaker 3: Up there.
Speaker 5: We have This is Bill and the Record Studio in
Los Angeles with the folks from Real Crime Profile, Jim Clemente,
Laura Richards and Lisa's em Betty that is Oh, I'm
losing his name.
Speaker 3: Help Steve Spola, Peece Bengola.
Speaker 5: Thank you from Cold Justice. These are just a tiny
fraction of the number of podcasts that Bill has been
on to talk about the case. Anytime that you can
get someone from the community involved in your case, you.
Speaker 3: Can carry it.
Speaker 5: No, there is no end to how far you can
carry it.
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why we founded Mind Over
Murder was I was doing a lot of other true
crime podcasts discussing the case as a guest, and a
number of people said to me, you're really good at this, Bill,
you should do your own podcast. And I thought, the
last thing in the world needs is another white guy
of a certain age That would be me pontificating about
sports or politics or cooking or whatever as a podcast.
So I thought, how could we balance that out? And
I thought, I know, if I got Kristin Dilly to
sign on as a podcast partner, I would have a
woman's perspective. She grew up in Virginia. Remember I've never
even lived in Virginia, and the Colonial Parkway murders are
of Virginia case. Her perspective is different. She is significantly
younger than I am. We have an interesting intersection of
two people who come from different backgrounds and come from
different parts of the country. Interestingly, although we'd sometimes duke
it out behind closed doors or closed microphones, we'd actually
end up agreeing, I would say ninety five ninety eight
percent of the time, even though we're coming at this
experience from two completely different places. And I like the
give and take of having a podcast partner. So thank
you for that.
Speaker 3: Thank you for asking me.
Speaker 5: Like I said, when we started this out, I was
atly terrified by the prospect. But now this is amazing,
and this is not at all what I thought my
I didn't think this is what my midlife crisis was
going to look like.
Speaker 2: Will you tell me about what that's like to have
a midlife crisis? I look forward to that.
Speaker 5: Let's take a couple of minutes and ask for questions
that you all have for us. It can be about advocacy,
it can be about podcasting, it can be about each
other's dirty little secrets or anything. Before we close us out,
what kind of questions do you guys have for us?
Speaker 2: One quick thing. Remember I have to wear my engineer hat.
If you want your voice to be heard on the podcast,
you need to step up and ask it on that microphone.
If you don't, and you might be a bit more faint.
Kristen is also happy to repeat your question if you
have no desire to have your voice appear on the podcast.
So we welcome questions of any sort whatsoever. Bruce, You're
really good at this stuff. Bruce has been a guest
on our podcast.
Speaker 7: I just wanted to ask how you approach a law
enforcement agency. Do you just call through the switchboard or
do you get the detective who is in charge of
the case, or how do you break the ice with
a with an agency.
Speaker 2: Well, we're finding ourselves at are real interesting crossroads here
with all of the changes at the FBI. I was
telling Kristin this just earlier today. We think we're going
to be dealing with it with all new people. And
when I first heard this about two weeks ago, I
was very frustrated, But in talking to Kristin, who helps
balance me out, I realized it's probably a good thing because,
as she put it, fresh eyes and a new perspective
and know not being locked into previous case theories and
that sort of thing. Typically, what we'll do is we'll
reach out. Usually what I'm looking to do is get
past the switchboard thing, and what I'm really looking for
is email and cell phone contact details for those individuals,
because usually I want to talked to the case agents directly,
if at all possible. I think with all the changes
at the FBI, I actually think the top two people
at the FBI, Chris Ray and Paula Bate, have both
resigned on the day before the inauguration. I'm not implying
their hands on with the Colonial Parkway murders, but it's
an interesting phenomenon. And then our longtime case agent just
retired a couple of days before the new administration was
sworn in. And this is a federal agency. I just
got a phone call back from guy who's in charge
of the Newport News office, which is the responsible office.
He's gone too, He's moved on to a new role
at the FBI. And now I just heard rumors that
the top guy at Norfolk is also going to be
moving on to a new role at the FBI. So
that's five people who are familiar with the Colonial Parkway murders,
all of whom are going to be either completely gone
from the FBI or moved on to a new role,
So we find ourselves at an interesting crossroads. What I'll
be seeking, though, is the same kind of working relationship
where I can reach them quickly, seven days a week,
because stuff happens. We'll see if the new team is
as open to direct communication with the families and with
me in particular. I'm hoping so, and actually.
Speaker 5: Bruce also to your point, one of the fun things
about knowing so many different true crime writers is a
lot of them have contacts with other law enforcement agents,
some of whom are working on cases that were interested in.
When I went to our friend Ron Peterson's book signing
back in July, I think it was he put me
in contact with three different gentlemen who worked out of
the Chesapeake office that I was interested in getting in
contact with because there was a whole series of cold
cases out of Chesapeake, all these homicides of different women
that haven't been solved yet. And as soon as I said,
do you know anybody, who was like, there's three people
over there, come on over, guys.
Speaker 3: So sometimes it really is just knowing the.
Speaker 5: Right people looking forward to being able to follow up
on that. But I think knowing people who know people
is also a good way to get your foot in
the door. That's excellent question. Anyone else have questions for us? Yeah,
come on up, Okay, all right, sure, that's.
Speaker 3: Such a great question.
Speaker 5: So the question is what can people whose ordinary concerned
Virginians do to encourage the FBI to test the evidence
in the Colonial Parkway murders case, particularly Alan Weid Wilmer
Seniors and put it in codis Bill.
Speaker 3: You want to take that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this one's a little bit of a tough one
because we seem to be encountering some resistance from law enforcement.
Let me back up for a seconds so people understand
the context of your question. A year ago, January eighth,
twenty twenty four, FBI and Virginia State Police announced that
they had connected a deceased suspect named Alan Wade Wilmer Senior,
who's from Lancaster County, Virginia. He was a waterman and
had often worked out of the Hampton area. He had
been linked via DNA to one of the Colonial Parkway murders,
the murder of Robin Edwards and David Nobling. Of course,
we'd literally been begging Virginia State Police and FBI to
use advanced forensics and test the evidence. There was a
fair amount of evidence in the Colonial Parkway murders, but
there seems to be this very odd foot dragging phenomenon
with both the Virginia State Police and the FBI. We're
happy to report that there seems to be some forward
movement here. So they identified Wilmer as a suspect, and
they said that he was responsible for the murder of
Robin Edwards and David Nobbling. Further, they also identified him
as the rapist and mur or of a case that
we were not familiar with, Teresa Howell, who was murdered
in nineteen eighty nine. That links another murder into, at
least from our perspective, into the Colonial Parkway murders. What
we were very unhappy about was the Virginia State Police
and the FBI went way out of their way on
that press conference a year ago now. They never identified
the case as the Colonial Parkway murders, and they refused
to answer our question, which was asked twice at the
press conference by media people, including reporters. We know they
were asked twice, can you say when Alan Wade Wilmer
Senior first moved on to your radar? They said no, twice,
that was the answer. No, we knew who Alan Wade
Wilmer was. First of all, we have sources inside the investigation,
so we had several months noticed that Wilmer had been
identified as a suspect. What was very frustrating is they
wouldn't admit publicly that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was also
the lead suspect in the disappearance of Keith Colin. Cassandra
Haley and I think from a transparency perspective, this is appalling.
Why didn't they want to admit that because the FBI
had questioned Alan Wade Wilmer, had given him two polygraph exams,
one of which he passed, one of which was inconclusive.
In other words, they can't tell whether the person is
telling the truth or lying. I've spoken to the man
that gave them the polygraph exam thirty six years ago.
Even he says he wouldn't have let Wilmer go even
after searching his home, searching his boat, testing evidence to
the limits of the nineteen eighties technology. I'm not trying
to be unfair to anybody and giving him two polygraph examinations,
they let him go, and they don't seem to have
ever revisited the fact that Wilmer was suspect number one
in the Carl Hayley disappearance. We still feel like we're
encountering resistance from the FBI and the Virginia State Police
to putting Wilmer's DNA into the so called CODIS system,
which allows you to test DNA. Their claim is because
Wilmer was never convicted of a crime, that he can't
be put into COTIS. I think this is a ridiculous loophole,
and I don't know whose civil rights were protecting. Wilmer's
been dead since twenty seventeen, so why are we concerned
about a dead man's civil rights and not the rights
of the victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. We're not
happy with the foot dragging that we're encountering here. I
don't have a great answer for you yet on how
average citizens can get involved. We are going to pursue this.
We're not going to let this go. I believe in
civil rights, and I believe that there are rights of privacy,
but Wilmer's been dead since twenty seventeen. Whose rights are
we protecting? This one's an open issue from our perspective,
and obviously you can tell something I feel strongly about.
Speaker 5: But I will say that when we have a more
concrete idea of whether this takes a good old fashioned
letter writing campaign or something like that, we will let
you know because we want to put pressure on the
FBI and let them know. You have the evidence, it's
time to test it, and it's time to put him
in Codis where he belongs.
Speaker 3: Robert, you got questions? Came on up?
Speaker 2: Oh, he's got questions on his iPhone. He's ready to go.
Speaker 6: I'll always forget unless I write it down.
Speaker 3: Awesome.
Speaker 6: So with the Teresa Howell case, we know that Alan
Wade Wilmer Senior assaulted and murdered her on the weekend
before fourth of July, right. I know in the other
unsolved cases there's usually a lay or close proximity to
a holiday weekend. Do you see that as a significant
detail that would advance that theory he was involved in
all of the unsolved cases left in the Colonial Parkway murders.
Speaker 2: I think it's a very strong possibility and hopefully. We've
been told that they're going to be doing advanced forensic
testing on new round of testing, which is good news.
In the Carl Haley disappearance and in the Thomasdowski murder,
once again we seem to be hitting. I don't know
if they put their foot firmly on the break, but
it just we were told we were going to have
results in October and November, and here it is January
and we still don't have results. I think there's a
very strong possibility that Wilmer is involved, and we've talked
about the three day weekend possibility as well. It doesn't
strike us as a coincidence that a number of these
murders seem seem to happen on three day weekends. That
pattern held, by the way, even in the recent solve
in the Shenandoah murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Wyan,
that was also over a three day weekend. Although they've
identified a different suspect, and assuming they're right, and I
think they are, that seems to be but different offender altogether.
Speaker 5: I think your question also speaks to the need to
reprofile this case. I would love to see the current
BAU really take everything that they know, take everything they're
aware of about Wilmer, and do a complete reprofile.
Speaker 3: Is that going to happen? Are we going to know
about it if it happens.
Speaker 5: Probably not, But I think that's something that would be
really helpful considering that as a factor in three of
those cases.
Speaker 2: Acronym alert tell people what the BAU stands for.
Speaker 5: Behavioral analysis unit, the thing that I wish I could
have joined at some point or another, but I unfortunately
do not have the credentials or.
Speaker 3: The jobs for it.
Speaker 2: More questions go right ahead.
Speaker 6: I got one follow up point. I know there's lot
of questions around how Keith's car ended up on the
Colonial Parkway, given that it was so out of the
way of where they were going that night or where
people thought they were going. Has there ever been any
documentation of what his gas tank was at when they
found the car.
Speaker 2: I don't know that I've ever heard that. That's an
interesting question. Good there's let me elaborate. For people that
are less familiar Keith calling Cassandra Haley, who technically are
missing persons, their bodies have still never been found. I
think it's a fairly safe assumption after thirty six years,
They're not walking through the door anytime soon. They were
last seen together at a party at what is now
called Christopher Newport University in Newport News, at an apartment
complex which is no longer there. They were due home
and this sort of makes me smile when I think
about myself as a much younger man. They were due
home for a two am curfew. Her parents life lived
in the Grafting section of at Newport News, Yorktown. Thank you.
What's odd about where the car was found, which is
on the Colonial Parkway, it's two point four miles away
from where my sister's car was found also on the
Colonial Parkway, is that it's fifteen to twenty minutes out
of the way. That kind of doesn't make sense. And
the cal and Haley families feel very strongly that Keith
and Sandy would not have gone to the parkway. Remember
a year and a half prior, my sister Kathy Thomas
and her girlfriend of Beckadowski were brutally murdered on the
Colonial Parkway. It might not have been a top choice.
And it's fifteen to twenty minutes out of the way,
and they have a two am curfew it feels to
our current team of investigators as if disappearance but likely
homicide of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley may have happened elsewhere.
And then there's the placement of the Toyota Celica Keith's
car on the parkway. I've never had anybody mention the
amount of gas in the car.
Speaker 6: It's something I was thinking when I was re listening
to one of the episodes. You know, there's a question.
Speaker 5: About yeah, no follow up with us before you leave,
so I can write that down. I think that's a
great question.
Speaker 2: Much of the evidence that's being retested and we hear
there may be some results pending, is evidence of items
that were in Keith's car the next day when they
found the Toyota Celica on the Colonial Parkway makes sense.
Speaker 7: Thank you, guys, Thank you.
Speaker 3: I think we need to wrap it up here, mister.
Speaker 2: Thomas, unless people have more questions.
Speaker 5: There are plenty ways that you can help us with
our advocacy, and if there's any way that we can
help you with yours, please reach out. We are more
than happy to help you, whether it is building websites,
helping you start your own podcast, or anything else. The
ways that you can help us, or to follow us
on social media if you're not doing it already, share
our content, subscribe to the pod like us US, review US,
share us. We do have merch from tea Public and
it is fully customizable, so all you have to do
is go to teapublic dot com, type in Mind over
Murder and you can get our logo on everything pretty much.
Speaker 3: You've got a sweatshirt. I got a bunch of shirts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I put my Mind of a Murder t shirts
away until it's warmed up again. There's mug sweatshirts.
Speaker 5: Now, yeah, there's mugs. There's wall hangings, there's all sorts
of stuff.
Speaker 3: There's a laptop case.
Speaker 5: We do have a go fundme going not right at
the moment, but I think we'll go ahead and open
it back up so that we can continue to hold
live events and speak at Crime Con, which is going
to be in Denver in September, and various other places.
We want to thank you guys very much for being
here today, for listening to us talk about our case
and about our advocacy. Please make sure that you do
pick up some informational postcards at our table outside and
keep sharing liking, rating, reviewing, and asking us the hard
questions because that's what we're here for.
Speaker 2: And finally, we want to thank the Montclair Library for
hosting us today. We really appreciate it. They reached out
to us and said would we do this thing, and
we said sure, why not? And so thank you to
Michelle and her team here. They've done a fantastic job
and it made us feel very welcome. Davey gave us pizza.
Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of
mind Over Murder live from the Montclair Public Library.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.