1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:43,719 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're. 16 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:48,759 Speaker 5: Coming to you live from the Montclair Library, Prince William County, 17 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,119 beautiful Commonwealth of Virginia. Everybody, thank you so much for 18 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,240 joining us today for this live podcast. 19 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:56,399 Speaker 3: Everybody give us a round of applause. Please. 20 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it's deafening, all right. It's also freezing here, 21 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:03,880 but not in this room. 22 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 3: Our hearts are warm. We Hope. 23 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 5: Thank y'all so much for joining us today. We really 24 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,959 appreciate you coming out. I got on a very cold day. 25 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:14,719 Not as cold as where he lives, but. 26 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:15,799 Speaker 3: Still it's pretty cold. 27 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 5: But thank you for joining us here at the True 28 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,359 Crime Mini con. And thank you very much to the 29 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:24,040 Prince William County Library System for generously allowing us to 30 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,319 participate in this event. We really appreciate it. For those 31 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,239 of you who are not familiar with us, I think 32 00:01:30,239 --> 00:01:32,120 most of you are familiar with us. How many Mind 33 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:33,519 of a Murder fans up in this room? 34 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: Yay? 35 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 2: Wait, let me ask you another question. 36 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:39,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead. 37 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 2: Who's here from law enforcement? Oh? Nobody? All right, we 38 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:45,439 can speak frankly. 39 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,079 Speaker 3: Where we hope in the FBI is going to roll 40 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:49,640 in on us. 41 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: We know they listened to the podcast. I know this 42 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,599 for a fact because they've objected to things we've said 43 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:55,959 on Mind over Murder. 44 00:01:55,879 --> 00:01:59,879 Speaker 5: And we'll object to more probably probably, Yeah, we'll shoot 45 00:01:59,879 --> 00:02:00,239 for that. 46 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,079 Speaker 3: For those of you who are not familiar, I'm Kristin Dilley. 47 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 5: I'm a podcaster, I'm an advocate, I'm a writer, I'm 48 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,639 a teacher, and somehow or another, six years ago I 49 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,719 started doing this with him, but I've had a lovely 50 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:14,639 time ever since. 51 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:16,879 Speaker 2: That's referred to as a lapse in judgment. 52 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:17,879 Speaker 3: Yes it was. 53 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. I'm the brother of Kathy Thomas, who, 54 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,800 together with their girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, are the first two 55 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:29,680 victims in the so called Colonial Parkway murders down Williamsburg Way. 56 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,400 I'm trying to make it sound like I'm from Virginia. 57 00:02:32,479 --> 00:02:33,879 Speaker 3: We don't say anything like that. 58 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,759 Speaker 2: No, you don't. Okay, Hell, we were it up in 59 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,319 New England. You'd say down Williamsburg Way. 60 00:02:39,719 --> 00:02:40,879 Speaker 3: We say over yonder. 61 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,479 Speaker 2: Oh. I got to work on that, all right. You 62 00:02:44,479 --> 00:02:46,960 can help me with your colloquial expressions. 63 00:02:47,599 --> 00:02:48,039 Speaker 3: Look at you. 64 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 5: In case you were not familiar with our podcast, we 65 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,719 launched in January twenty twenty. We were a pre pandemic podcast. 66 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,800 We did not start because of the pandemic. We started 67 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,080 for it. Please note we are in our what did 68 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:03,520 we decide? 69 00:03:03,599 --> 00:03:04,159 Speaker 3: Six season? 70 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: Yes, six season just started. 71 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 5: And we are Bill didn't pick a little bit. 72 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 3: We do not technically have. 73 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 5: Two million downloads yet, but we're almost there, so close 74 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:20,800 to two million downloads to date, and we are dedicated 75 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,520 to exploring and discussing all aspects of the criminal justice system, forensics, investigations, 76 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,960 specific cases, his sister's case in particular. And we are 77 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:33,759 your number one source for information on the investigation into 78 00:03:33,759 --> 00:03:37,039 the Colonial Parkway murders case. Others may say they're number one, 79 00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:37,639 but they're lying. 80 00:03:37,719 --> 00:03:40,759 Speaker 2: We are the best correct true, that's true. 81 00:03:41,599 --> 00:03:44,199 Speaker 5: And our goal also is to be advocates for victims 82 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,719 and families who are seeking answers and justice. 83 00:03:48,879 --> 00:03:50,759 Speaker 2: I like it so far. What else have you got 84 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:51,159 to say? 85 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,639 Speaker 5: I do want to make sure that we thank all 86 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,120 of our supporters who are here today for this live event. 87 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,680 You did not have to come listen to us on 88 00:03:58,719 --> 00:04:00,719 a Saturday. I'm sure you have many better things to do, 89 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:02,919 but you did come, so thank you very much, especially 90 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,879 to everybody who came from Williamsburg Way. 91 00:04:07,919 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: Well, what do you say, over over yonder, over yonder? 92 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:14,039 You'll lay some of this other stuff on us as 93 00:04:14,039 --> 00:04:14,840 we unfold here. 94 00:04:15,439 --> 00:04:15,919 Speaker 3: How to talk? 95 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: Okay, the way you're supposed to do, the way you're 96 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:18,920 supposed to do. 97 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,879 Speaker 3: Thanks, I'm an English teacher, man, What do you expect? 98 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,519 Speaker 2: Okay? Is yonder in the English dictionary? It probably is? 99 00:04:26,639 --> 00:04:27,560 Actually it is. 100 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 5: It is what we wanted to talk about today is 101 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,120 we wanted to talk about what it means to be 102 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,759 an advocate, because we do consider ourselves to be advocates. 103 00:04:36,199 --> 00:04:40,480 We also wanted to make sure that we acknowledge the 104 00:04:40,519 --> 00:04:43,759 fact that even if you are not a legal, licensed 105 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,959 victim's advocate, you can still be an advocate. You do 106 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:51,360 not have to be holding a license in order to 107 00:04:51,439 --> 00:04:55,120 make your voice heard about anything that you are particularly 108 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,360 passionate about. What we wanted to do today with this 109 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,839 presentation is discuss us the various ways that you can 110 00:05:01,879 --> 00:05:04,600 be an advocate for the cases and causes that you 111 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,480 care about. But we are going to frame it around 112 00:05:06,519 --> 00:05:08,600 the work that Bill and the other families in the 113 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,079 Colonial Parkway murders case have done to advocate, or the 114 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:14,519 thirty eight year run of this case. 115 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 3: So far, fair enough, all right, let's go to it. Then. 116 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,439 Speaker 5: One of the things that I think is really important 117 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,839 when we talk about advocacy is that neither of us 118 00:05:25,879 --> 00:05:29,600 believe in gatekeeping, because there are many different approaches to 119 00:05:29,639 --> 00:05:32,920 advocacy and they are all valid. We don't believe that 120 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,399 advocacy is limited to those who are licensed victims' advocates, 121 00:05:37,439 --> 00:05:39,639 and we do not believe that you need to be 122 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,000 personally touched by violent crime to be an advocate. Both 123 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,079 of us have been, obviously Bill's story, I have been 124 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:51,120 touched by violent crime, But that does not mean that 125 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,480 somebody who hasn't been cannot be an advocate. 126 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,639 Speaker 3: You can be an advocate. 127 00:05:55,319 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 5: Because you're a concerned member of the community. So, given 128 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,879 that statement, how many of you would consider yourselves to 129 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,319 be advocates for a case that you care about? 130 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: There we go, that's probably half the room. 131 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. There is no gatekeeping involved with advocacy. 132 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 2: How many of the people that raise their hands have 133 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:22,000 been touched directly by violent crime? A similar number, maybe 134 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,839 not fully half the room, but forty percent. Maybe we 135 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:26,240 know that. 136 00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:29,759 Speaker 5: It is tough when you have been touched by violent 137 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,000 crime in any way, whether you were a victim or 138 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,519 you knew someone who was victimized, and so advocacy is 139 00:06:35,639 --> 00:06:37,839 very important for a number of different reasons. So we 140 00:06:37,879 --> 00:06:40,000 wanted to talk today about what does it mean to 141 00:06:40,079 --> 00:06:43,800 be an advocate and how can you make yourself useful 142 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,920 in various ways as you move forward through your advocacy journey. 143 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 2: Something that's worth mentioning too, is that there are currently 144 00:06:52,079 --> 00:06:56,639 three hundred thousand cold case murders here in the United States. 145 00:06:57,439 --> 00:07:00,680 That number comes from the Murder Accountability Project, and this 146 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,879 is something that people like the United States Department of Justice. 147 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,600 Not only are they not talking about it, they don't 148 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,920 want to talk about the fact that there are three 149 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,079 hundred thousand unsolved cold case homicides. Beyond that number are 150 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:20,079 additional tens of thousands of sexual assaults. This is where 151 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,759 we've heard about rape kits going untested. The United States 152 00:07:24,079 --> 00:07:28,040 quite frankly, has done a terrible job of investigating cold 153 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,279 case homicides and sexual assaults. I'd like to see that change. 154 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,879 We have a long way to go as a country 155 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,279 to move forward investigations into cases like ours. 156 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 5: And one of the things that you can do to 157 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,519 make sure that happens is use your voice. Everyone here 158 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,680 in this room has a voice that they can use 159 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,600 for good, especially considering that we can harness the power 160 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:54,079 of social media. So we encourage you if there is 161 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,920 something that you're passionate about, whether it is a case 162 00:07:56,959 --> 00:08:00,439 that personally affects you or just something that has occurred 163 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,240 in your community, use your voice because otherwise we are 164 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,639 not holding law enforcement accountable for the job that they 165 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,959 need to do, and the best way that you can 166 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,639 be an advocate is just speak out and speak up. 167 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,480 So we want to talk about advocacy tools, and then 168 00:08:16,519 --> 00:08:19,600 we want to frame this in terms of the tools 169 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,040 to the Colonial Parkway murders families, particularly Bill, who has 170 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,279 spearheaded a lot of this, are advocating for their case, 171 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,040 both from the cases very beginning all the way up 172 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,720 to now thirty eight years later. There are a number 173 00:08:32,759 --> 00:08:37,399 of different paths to advocacy. Victims or survivors of violent 174 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,879 crime and then secondary victims, which are the family members 175 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:43,440 and the friends affected by the crime, have different approaches 176 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,440 to advocating for their case, and that is perfectly okay. 177 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,080 Those approaches are going to differ from those of concerned community, 178 00:08:51,159 --> 00:08:53,480 members of the media and podcast community, and members of 179 00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:54,320 law enforcement. 180 00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: Again, no gate keeping. 181 00:08:56,279 --> 00:08:58,919 Speaker 5: There are any number of different ways to be an advocate, 182 00:08:59,039 --> 00:09:01,360 and all of them are valid and all of them 183 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,919 are effective. So we want to take a little bit 184 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,960 of time and look at the ways the Colonial Parkway 185 00:09:06,039 --> 00:09:07,279 murders families. 186 00:09:06,879 --> 00:09:08,159 Speaker 3: Have approached advocacy. 187 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,639 Speaker 5: These tools might work for you as an advocate, and 188 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,039 if they don't, that's okay. There are a lot of 189 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,639 other approaches that may work, and that's something that you 190 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:19,799 have to figure out for yourself. When we're talking about 191 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,759 the Colonial Parkway murders. The families in this case have 192 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:29,480 advocated for their case in six different ways. They use 193 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,759 social media to their best advantage, and we can talk 194 00:09:32,799 --> 00:09:36,639 about forming the social media for this case. They work 195 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,879 with the media reporters both like broadcast to media and 196 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,639 print media. They have formed their own advocacy foundation. I 197 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,559 don't know if we've spent a lot of time talking 198 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,720 about f fact, but I do want to get into 199 00:09:48,759 --> 00:09:53,279 that they've encouraged investment and involvement from the wider community. 200 00:09:53,879 --> 00:09:57,080 They've encouraged investment and involvement from the true crime community, 201 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,159 which now of course includes us, and we use our 202 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,600 voice through podcasting. It was a little bit of a 203 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:05,799 fear for us when we first got started, or at 204 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,080 least it was a fear for me. I don't know 205 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,639 about you, but I was terrified at the idea of 206 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:12,159 doing this when we first started in twenty twenty. 207 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: Was this something that freaked you out or were you 208 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,159 just gung ho for it? 209 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,159 Speaker 2: I was excited about it, although those first couple of 210 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,720 episodes I think we sounded a little shaky, but I 211 00:10:20,759 --> 00:10:23,960 think we got better at it. It's just like anything else. 212 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,399 It's not rocket science, and you can figure it out. 213 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:28,320 I think I was gung home, but I was also 214 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,919 a bit nervous in the beginning. But here we are 215 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,360 sitting at your kitchen table. 216 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,519 Speaker 3: Yes, we did not start at a studio or anything 217 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,120 like that. We started at my kitchen table. 218 00:10:38,159 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 5: We did the first six episodes from my humble kitchen 219 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,399 in Williamsburg, and now we podcast separately for anybody who 220 00:10:45,399 --> 00:10:48,279 doesn't know our setup too. Bill is in Connecticut, I 221 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,600 am in Williamsburg, and so we podcast through the roadcast. 222 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:52,879 Speaker 3: Are you going to take them in and explain what 223 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:54,159 this dim actually is? 224 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,759 Speaker 2: So we actually do the podcast remotely, and so it's 225 00:10:57,879 --> 00:11:01,039 Kristin and Bill and then we off and they have guests. 226 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,080 Bruce Goldfarber has been a guest on our podcast. As 227 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,519 a matter of fact, we saw great presentation earlier from 228 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:11,519 the ATF and the US Marshalls Service about the trained 229 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:13,519 dogs that they use. Now, I don't think we're going 230 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,159 to get much out of Poppy, the dog in question, 231 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:20,039 who was here today. They were so fascinating. I asked 232 00:11:20,039 --> 00:11:21,759 them if they'd be willing to do the podcast, and 233 00:11:21,799 --> 00:11:25,000 they said, Kristen already asked us because one of the 234 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,360 things we've tried to do with Mind over Murder is 235 00:11:27,879 --> 00:11:29,919 I don't want to just talk about the Colonial Parkway 236 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,759 murders every week. And we've met these amazing people, investigators, 237 00:11:34,799 --> 00:11:40,159 forensics experts, so many different people who've educated us about 238 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,000 what's going on in the Colonial Parkway murders, but also 239 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:45,320 in the true crime space altogether. So if there's an 240 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,360 opportunity to talk to an author who's written a book 241 00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:53,240 about a fascinating aspect of crime, there's another opportunity. So 242 00:11:53,279 --> 00:11:56,000 what we've tried to do is take advantage of these 243 00:11:56,039 --> 00:11:59,600 fascinating people that we've met along this journey and talk 244 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,919 to them and listen and learn, because I think one 245 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:04,960 of the best things for us to do is find 246 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,399 really smart people that are doing interesting things and that 247 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,720 can explain them to us. So Kristin and Bill are 248 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:14,879 learning something, and hopefully people that are listening to Mind 249 00:12:14,919 --> 00:12:18,120 over Murder are doing the same thing. We're typically on 250 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:23,240 the Zoom platform. Kristen's and Williamsburg. I'm in Norfolk, Connecticut, 251 00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:26,360 which is a little tiny town in the northwest corner 252 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:29,320 of Connecticut. For two, it is the ice box of Connecticut, 253 00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:32,519 and it's right about that right now with minus two. 254 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,799 The other night. If we have a guest, that person 255 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:40,080 is also typically participating in the zoom call. The technology 256 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,279 has improved tremendously, and I think it was at the 257 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,559 beginning of COVID. I don't think I'd ever even been 258 00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:48,159 on a zoom call. Maybe once or twice. Now it 259 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,000 seems like just part of everyday life for people in 260 00:12:51,039 --> 00:12:55,440 professions across the country. Works really well for us, so 261 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,679 we'll try to have an interesting, thoughtful typically a three 262 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,039 way conversation. Sometimes we'll have two guests. After that it 263 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,759 starts to get a little ungainly a few too many 264 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,399 voices going on. It served us well. So I've got 265 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:14,679 this roadcaster made in Australia which is designed for podcasting, 266 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,039 and it allows us to record and then edit the 267 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:19,240 podcast before. 268 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,039 Speaker 5: You hear it, and it allows us to be mobile 269 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,480 so that we can do these wonderful live events. Yeah, 270 00:13:23,519 --> 00:13:25,000 all we have to do is pack up the board 271 00:13:25,159 --> 00:13:27,480 and the mics and he sets it up and we go. 272 00:13:28,159 --> 00:13:32,120 So yeah, I think advocacy through podcasting has become our medium. 273 00:13:32,519 --> 00:13:34,840 It's become our niche for sure, but there are many 274 00:13:34,879 --> 00:13:36,000 other ways, and I. 275 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: Should remember to thank the FBI and Virginia State Police 276 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,679 analysts who we know listen every week the mind of 277 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,879 a murder, just waiting for us to say something interesting. 278 00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:49,519 We're inappropriate or outrageous, but we'll get to that. 279 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 5: One of the best ways that you can advocate, as 280 00:13:53,399 --> 00:13:56,200 we all know, is how important it is to harness 281 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,039 the power of social media, and you can do it 282 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:03,000 through any platform. Some platform obviously are more popular than others. 283 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,000 Some have seen a decided downturn in the last couple 284 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,840 of We won't be naming any of those, by the way, 285 00:14:11,399 --> 00:14:14,320 But any way that you can harness a social media 286 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,799 platform to get information about your case out there is 287 00:14:17,919 --> 00:14:20,519 a really solid way to start advocating. 288 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:22,039 Speaker 3: The Colonial Parkway. 289 00:14:21,759 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 5: Murders families run essentially four different social media pages. We 290 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,519 run the Colonial Parkway Murders Page, which is where we 291 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:33,799 do all things Colonial Parkway Murders. The Call family more 292 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:35,799 than the Haley family, but I know the Haley family's 293 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,000 in on it too. They run Whatever Happened to Richard 294 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,679 Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. They run the it's largely 295 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,879 defunct now but still out there. Colonial Parkway victims gone 296 00:14:45,879 --> 00:14:48,360 but not forgotten. And then of course we run mind 297 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:49,080 over murder. 298 00:14:49,919 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: But one thing I want to do is I want 299 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:55,639 to give props to the Call and Haley families. This 300 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,879 is Keith Call and Cassandra Haley, or two of the 301 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,120 victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. Note the long, kind 302 00:15:02,159 --> 00:15:05,519 of slightly ungainly whatever happened to Richard Keith Call and 303 00:15:05,559 --> 00:15:10,919 Cassandra Haley. It's a mouthful. They launched this on Facebook 304 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,360 at a time when Facebook wouldn't let you use the 305 00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:18,600 word murder on Facebook, which is why the title is 306 00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,240 long and doesn't mention murders. As far as I can tell, 307 00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:24,039 and we've done a fair amount of research on this, 308 00:15:24,279 --> 00:15:27,279 I believe that the Call and Haley families are the 309 00:15:27,399 --> 00:15:32,919 first family to use social media in an unsolved murder 310 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,639 anywhere in the United States. So they started because they, 311 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,519 as our friend Joyce Call, Canada, Keith's sister says, we 312 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:44,000 didn't know what to do. We wanted to keep the 313 00:15:44,039 --> 00:15:47,919 conversation going and Facebook was a new thing back then. 314 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,879 They started by putting up articles that what was happening 315 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,240 with the case, and they would encourage people to ask 316 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,799 and answer questions on social media, and no one had 317 00:15:59,799 --> 00:16:02,480 ever done this before as far as I can tell now. 318 00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:05,840 Of course, their true crime is everywhere. At the risk 319 00:16:05,879 --> 00:16:07,840 of making it sound like our case is a thousand 320 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,759 years old, it's thirty eight years old. This is a 321 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:17,120 case that predates It predates DNA being used in forensic applications, 322 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,039 this predates social media. All of these things have come 323 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,159 along later, and a lot of things that we all 324 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,360 accept as important but tools that we use every single day, 325 00:16:27,639 --> 00:16:30,320 these things literally didn't even exist at that point. 326 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:32,799 Speaker 5: If you're looking to advocate for a case that is 327 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:36,159 close to your heart, we encourage you check out social media. 328 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:38,600 My students always say that only the old people hang 329 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:40,120 out on Facebook, and. 330 00:16:39,879 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 3: She's probably not wrong. 331 00:16:41,919 --> 00:16:44,399 Speaker 5: But you always check on Facebook and see is there 332 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,879 a site dedicated to this case already? And if there isn't, 333 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:50,399 you can be the person to start it. There are 334 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,919 plenty of families out there, like the Calls and the Hallies, 335 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,600 who do not know where to start when it comes 336 00:16:55,639 --> 00:16:58,600 to getting their case out there. So if you are 337 00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:01,919 someone who can offer that of expertise, even if it's 338 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,720 just I know how to set up a Facebook page 339 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:05,240 or an Instagram page. 340 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,599 Speaker 3: Absolutely, that is a great place to start. 341 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 5: And we would encourage you to reach out to families 342 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,119 if you don't see their case being well represented and 343 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,480 say I am very concerned, how can I help you. 344 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,279 I think most families would be open to that, wouldn't 345 00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:19,559 you say? 346 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 2: I think it's very important that people get involved in 347 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:27,000 their local communities and follow what's going along. I do 348 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,000 grown to Kristin from time to time about this blankety 349 00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:34,000 blank multi platform world. Usually when I'm trying to find 350 00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:37,079 a message from someone that sent to us on one 351 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,640 of ten different platforms, and I'm like, was this on 352 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:43,799 x or what was it on threads or blue Sky? 353 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,440 It just goes on and on, and it's usually when 354 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,839 I'm trying to backtrack and find out how did that 355 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,920 person message us and how do I find what it 356 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,880 is they said. We actually had a discussion last night. 357 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,599 We had a quick dinner and Kristen researched a guy 358 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,640 that had reached out to me and said, you don't 359 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,920 want anything to do with this guy. 360 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,839 Speaker 5: No, no, And we're always grateful when people reach out, 361 00:18:05,839 --> 00:18:09,000 although sometimes I'm doing a little bit of research may 362 00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:12,319 indicate to us that maybe someone is not the best 363 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,119 person to represent our interests. 364 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's. 365 00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 5: Turned out to be the case with this person we 366 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:20,240 researched last night. But that's another story for another time. 367 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,200 Another way that we have I think very successfully, And 368 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,480 I'm going to put all of this down to my partner. 369 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,079 Speaker 2: Oh is this blame now? Are we blame casting? 370 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:30,279 Speaker 6: Now? 371 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 3: This is me giving you a lot of kudos. 372 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 5: The amount of media attention that our case has gotten 373 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,519 is down to you and your perseverance and your ability 374 00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:44,160 to build networks and connections with people. We have local 375 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,160 media partners WTKR, WABY, and so many others, and those 376 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,839 partnerships are things that you have made an effort to 377 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,039 reach out and maintain every time something big happens in 378 00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:56,200 the case builds. 379 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,799 Speaker 3: Who do we call? Do we call Andy Fox? Who 380 00:18:58,799 --> 00:18:59,279 do we call? 381 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,319 Speaker 5: Let's find so building partnerships with reporters who covered the 382 00:19:03,319 --> 00:19:06,519 case start to finish. There's no finish yet. Andy Fox, 383 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:08,599 for example, is one of our biggest allies when it 384 00:19:08,599 --> 00:19:12,279 comes to media reporting. We have partnerships with local print media, 385 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,640 We have relationships with a ton of different podcasters, and 386 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,759 that really is like that's down to you. 387 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:18,839 Speaker 3: I'm an introvert. 388 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 5: You, however, are like the consummate extrovert, and you do 389 00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:25,160 an amazing job with all of this networking. 390 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: Thanks. We were on El Jazeera, the English language feed 391 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,480 for El Jazeera the other day, and we'll send out 392 00:19:31,519 --> 00:19:34,200 links as soon as they're available. But it was fascinating 393 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,000 was myself and three other people from the true crime space. 394 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,079 Two of them are also podcasters, and they reached out 395 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,920 to us because they believe it or not, are following 396 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,079 the Colonial Parkway murders and they wanted to know if 397 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,440 I would participate in a conversation about ethics and true crime. 398 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:54,279 Here I am talking to a control room in Qatar, 399 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,799 if I'm saying that, And they were unbelievably professional, and 400 00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:02,480 I was blown away by the fact that they would 401 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:05,200 reach out from literally halfway around the world to ask 402 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,799 for our observations about what we think is going on 403 00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:10,880 in the true crime space. Is very interesting conversation something 404 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,759 that I'm happy to do because we only have a 405 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,079 limited number of ways we can keep pushing on the 406 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:20,920 Colonial Parkway murders, and the media is one of our 407 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:22,240 strongest allies. 408 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 5: The one thing that we have learned that the FBI 409 00:20:24,839 --> 00:20:27,480 does not like very much is media attention on the 410 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:30,480 things that have not gone well. So anytime that we 411 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:33,640 can call attention to, hey, here's this thing that has happened. 412 00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:38,319 Here is a lead, for example, a connection to the 413 00:20:38,599 --> 00:20:42,000 Colin Cassandra Haley case that was not mentioned in the 414 00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:45,119 initial press briefing last year, we are quick to call 415 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,680 them out on it. And the one thing the FBI 416 00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:49,200 hates more than anything else is having it pointed out. 417 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: They mess this up. 418 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,279 Speaker 2: For the benefit of the FBI analysts who are listening today, 419 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:55,519 We're not going to list all the problems in this 420 00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:57,759 one podcast, but I promise we'll get to them. 421 00:20:58,079 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 3: We're going to be in so much trouble. 422 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 5: I the next slide is actually you're gonna have to 423 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,240 spend a little bit of time on this next one. 424 00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:05,519 Speaker 3: Here about f. 425 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,279 Speaker 5: FACT, because this is well before. 426 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:08,839 Speaker 3: I got into this. 427 00:21:09,319 --> 00:21:11,599 Speaker 5: Another thing that I think is very unique about the 428 00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:13,880 Call and the Haley families, because again they were really 429 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,119 at the core of this, is they formed their own 430 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:22,640 advocacy foundation. They started an organization called f FACT, which 431 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,759 is Families and Friends Against Crime Today, and they started 432 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:31,640 this in nineteen eighty nine. After the final incident in 433 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,640 the Colonial Parkway murders, the Phelpslower murders in New Kent County. 434 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,839 They started it out my understandings, they started it as 435 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,960 a support group. They said they wanted to bring about 436 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,359 more in depth investigation of unsolved murder cases or missing 437 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,400 pursing cases. 438 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,599 Speaker 3: They worked together with. 439 00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 5: Local congressmen and delegates to help create a permanent task 440 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,400 force to investigate. It wasn't just the Colonial Parkway murders. 441 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,559 It was twelve different murders and missing persons cases in Tidewater, 442 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,920 some of which are still unsolved. 443 00:22:05,079 --> 00:22:07,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually the majority of them are still unsolved, 444 00:22:07,839 --> 00:22:10,440 which is a real shame. Calls in the Haleys, and 445 00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:14,359 we're very close to those families. These are just average people. 446 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,240 They lost loved ones. But they began to realize that 447 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,920 this was happening to a number of different families in 448 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,599 the so called Peninsula area, the Williamsburg area, and they 449 00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:29,039 just didn't feel like they were getting any traction with 450 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,480 law enforcement. But they found by joining forces with other 451 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:36,640 families who had also suffered similar losses, they were able 452 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,599 to begin to create alliances and they worked with members 453 00:22:41,599 --> 00:22:44,200 of Congress and they worked with members of the House 454 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,279 of Delegates to introduce legislation at the state level and 455 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,480 to really pressure Virginia State Police and the FBI to 456 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:57,839 put more resources into those cases. Now, ultimately all those 457 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,480 cases are not solved, but we have had some significant strides. 458 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,920 These are grassroots organizations started in the Call's living room 459 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:11,680 where they got together with other families, shared stories and frustrations. 460 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,880 It started out as a support group, but ultimately it's 461 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,279 actually proven to be a very effective tool. 462 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 5: I love that you emphasize that term grassroots because advocacy, 463 00:23:21,759 --> 00:23:23,839 as we said at the top of the pod, it 464 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,640 does not have to be a big, official, licensed thing 465 00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:31,119 with a huge group of people behind it. Advocacy can 466 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,480 be you starting a social media page, you starting your 467 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,880 own advocacy organization. 468 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 3: There are ways to do this. 469 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,799 Speaker 5: That allow you to take ownership and feel a sense 470 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:45,039 of purpose and a sense of power when it comes 471 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:48,000 to making sure that your voice is heard. It can 472 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,079 start very small. Like you said, it started in the 473 00:23:50,079 --> 00:23:52,759 calls living room. 474 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over Murder. Will be right back 475 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:13,799 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 476 00:24:13,839 --> 00:24:14,759 mindover Murder. 477 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 5: One of the other things that is very important in 478 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,640 any case is the investment and involvement of the community, 479 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,680 and that very much is something that is still on 480 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,160 the minds of people in Tidewater, Virginia. 481 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 3: Wouldn't you agree? 482 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: I would say so. My biggest concern is that we 483 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:36,880 meet hundreds and hundreds of people. We're always trying to 484 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,160 push back against a notion, meaning I think where people 485 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,400 will say I thought they solved those cases, or they'll 486 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,000 even mention a suspect and they'll say, oh, I thought 487 00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:51,920 that was Fred Atwell or whomever. We need to constantly 488 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,759 be beating this drum that these cases are not solved 489 00:24:55,839 --> 00:24:58,799 or they're not completely solved. So you see the electronic 490 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,880 billboards there of the reproductions of those gigantic electronic billboards 491 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,920 along the highway. Not my favorite in terms of a 492 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,240 visual but these generated a ton of tips. And this 493 00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:15,000 was a family initiative. This wasn't paid for by the 494 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:17,680 FBI or the Virginia State Police, and quite frankly, I 495 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,880 don't think they liked it, and I don't care. We 496 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:25,119 raised the money. We talked to the local billboard company 497 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,000 and said could you drop these ads in and they 498 00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:33,480 rotate through. This generated a ton of additional phone calls 499 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:37,359 and emails with tips to law enforcement. We're not going 500 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,359 to wait for law enforcement. We've been waiting for thirty 501 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,440 eight years. We're just going to keep pushing whether they 502 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:45,119 like it or not. 503 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 3: The other two items that are right up here on 504 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:48,119 the screen. 505 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 5: One is a missing poster for Cassandra and Keith, and 506 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,279 these were papered all around the area right. 507 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 3: After their disappearance. 508 00:25:56,839 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 5: And then the framed one right up there, if I'm 509 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,920 not mistaken, that is still up in the Glocester Courthouse 510 00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:06,680 post office. It is this community, the Tadwater community, is 511 00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:10,559 very invested in these cases. The only way that has 512 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,279 happened after thirty eight years is this concerted effort that 513 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,640 is being made to keep this case in the public eye, 514 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,359 whether it's through the electronic billboards or now our way 515 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,680 through the podcast. 516 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,279 Speaker 2: Being frank as always, law enforcement doesn't always like this. 517 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,519 They have strenuously criticized us behind closed doors. I've had 518 00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:34,880 it thrown back in my face. You have a book 519 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,359 that you're working on, you've done television series, you've got 520 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,880 a podcast. You think you're going to solve the Colonial 521 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,960 Parkway murders, And of course I stopped them. We don't 522 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:47,880 usually swear on the podcast, so I won't either, but 523 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,680 you'll get the gist. And I said, we're not here 524 00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:55,759 to solve the Colonial Parkway murders. That's your job. So 525 00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:58,200 don't think that we think we're going to solve the 526 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,559 Colonial Parkway murders. No, we think we're going to keep 527 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:03,880 talking about the Colonial Parkway murders until you solve the 528 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,359 Colonial Parkway murders. I can't clap handcuffs on some suspects somewhere. 529 00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:11,960 We're just civilians. But we're going to keep talking about 530 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,240 this until law enforcement steps up, and you know something, 531 00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:19,599 the pressure works. I know they don't like it because 532 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:23,000 they've said so. At the same time, after waiting for 533 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,680 answers for thirty eight years, I think we have every 534 00:27:25,799 --> 00:27:28,839 right to say whatever needs to be said to keep 535 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,759 this case moving forward, whether law enforcement likes it or not. 536 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:33,839 Speaker 3: Amen, good job. 537 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,079 Speaker 5: I do want to just take a moment and digress here. 538 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,319 Bill had mentioned that he's working on a book. He is, 539 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,519 but I did not know until a couple of minutes 540 00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:45,680 ago when we were talking off their How long this 541 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:46,559 book is, Bill? 542 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 3: How long is your book? 543 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: Oh, it's just a manuscript and it's only nine hundred 544 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,559 pages right now. Obviously I'm going to need an editor 545 00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:56,079 before we publish, but I'm actually hoping that we're going 546 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:01,279 to have more happy endings. Maybe that's a positive outcomes 547 00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:03,839 before we actually publish a book. 548 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 3: I had no idea this man had written nine hundred pages. 549 00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:08,519 I had no idea. 550 00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:11,279 Speaker 2: Good things you learn about your podcast partner? 551 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 3: Goodness? 552 00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 5: Nine hundred pages and I don't that's an exaggeration. 553 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: No it's not. But there's new chapters to be written, 554 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,200 so obviously the whole thing's going to need to be 555 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:23,960 squeezed down a little bit. 556 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, to say the least, I thought. 557 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 2: I might try to compete with the Magna Karta for length. 558 00:28:31,799 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 5: We also want to make sure that we acknowledge the 559 00:28:34,519 --> 00:28:38,440 really wonderful work of our colleagues in the true crime community. 560 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:41,480 If you can get someone in the true crime community 561 00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,039 on your side and interested in your case, it will 562 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:48,519 do no end of good. You can ride a whole 563 00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,880 entire wave just by getting the right people involved. Unfortunately 564 00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:57,079 for us, we have had amazing partnerships from day one. 565 00:28:57,599 --> 00:28:58,039 Speaker 3: Up there. 566 00:28:58,119 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 5: We have This is Bill and the Record Studio in 567 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,680 Los Angeles with the folks from Real Crime Profile, Jim Clemente, 568 00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:08,559 Laura Richards and Lisa's em Betty that is Oh, I'm 569 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:09,279 losing his name. 570 00:29:09,319 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 3: Help Steve Spola, Peece Bengola. 571 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,319 Speaker 5: Thank you from Cold Justice. These are just a tiny 572 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,200 fraction of the number of podcasts that Bill has been 573 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,160 on to talk about the case. Anytime that you can 574 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,720 get someone from the community involved in your case, you. 575 00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:25,519 Speaker 3: Can carry it. 576 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:28,119 Speaker 5: No, there is no end to how far you can 577 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:28,559 carry it. 578 00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:33,559 Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why we founded Mind Over 579 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,240 Murder was I was doing a lot of other true 580 00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:41,559 crime podcasts discussing the case as a guest, and a 581 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,759 number of people said to me, you're really good at this, Bill, 582 00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:47,640 you should do your own podcast. And I thought, the 583 00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:50,319 last thing in the world needs is another white guy 584 00:29:50,319 --> 00:29:54,000 of a certain age That would be me pontificating about 585 00:29:54,319 --> 00:29:57,920 sports or politics or cooking or whatever as a podcast. 586 00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:01,680 So I thought, how could we balance that out? And 587 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,359 I thought, I know, if I got Kristin Dilly to 588 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,720 sign on as a podcast partner, I would have a 589 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:12,359 woman's perspective. She grew up in Virginia. Remember I've never 590 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,200 even lived in Virginia, and the Colonial Parkway murders are 591 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:20,519 of Virginia case. Her perspective is different. She is significantly 592 00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:25,880 younger than I am. We have an interesting intersection of 593 00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:29,640 two people who come from different backgrounds and come from 594 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,440 different parts of the country. Interestingly, although we'd sometimes duke 595 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,680 it out behind closed doors or closed microphones, we'd actually 596 00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:43,000 end up agreeing, I would say ninety five ninety eight 597 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,240 percent of the time, even though we're coming at this 598 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,000 experience from two completely different places. And I like the 599 00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:55,200 give and take of having a podcast partner. So thank 600 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:55,559 you for that. 601 00:30:56,599 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 3: Thank you for asking me. 602 00:30:57,839 --> 00:30:59,759 Speaker 5: Like I said, when we started this out, I was 603 00:30:59,799 --> 00:31:03,039 atly terrified by the prospect. But now this is amazing, 604 00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:04,960 and this is not at all what I thought my 605 00:31:05,839 --> 00:31:08,039 I didn't think this is what my midlife crisis was 606 00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:08,759 going to look like. 607 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,119 Speaker 2: Will you tell me about what that's like to have 608 00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:14,400 a midlife crisis? I look forward to that. 609 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 5: Let's take a couple of minutes and ask for questions 610 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,039 that you all have for us. It can be about advocacy, 611 00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:23,279 it can be about podcasting, it can be about each 612 00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:27,160 other's dirty little secrets or anything. Before we close us out, 613 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,160 what kind of questions do you guys have for us? 614 00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: One quick thing. Remember I have to wear my engineer hat. 615 00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:34,880 If you want your voice to be heard on the podcast, 616 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,480 you need to step up and ask it on that microphone. 617 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:40,480 If you don't, and you might be a bit more faint. 618 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:43,559 Kristen is also happy to repeat your question if you 619 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,160 have no desire to have your voice appear on the podcast. 620 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:53,039 So we welcome questions of any sort whatsoever. Bruce, You're 621 00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:55,720 really good at this stuff. Bruce has been a guest 622 00:31:55,759 --> 00:31:56,599 on our podcast. 623 00:31:56,799 --> 00:31:59,519 Speaker 7: I just wanted to ask how you approach a law 624 00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:02,839 enforcement agency. Do you just call through the switchboard or 625 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,960 do you get the detective who is in charge of 626 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,680 the case, or how do you break the ice with 627 00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:09,839 a with an agency. 628 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 2: Well, we're finding ourselves at are real interesting crossroads here 629 00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:17,799 with all of the changes at the FBI. I was 630 00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:21,119 telling Kristin this just earlier today. We think we're going 631 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,200 to be dealing with it with all new people. And 632 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,599 when I first heard this about two weeks ago, I 633 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,279 was very frustrated, But in talking to Kristin, who helps 634 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:34,359 balance me out, I realized it's probably a good thing because, 635 00:32:34,359 --> 00:32:37,680 as she put it, fresh eyes and a new perspective 636 00:32:37,759 --> 00:32:42,240 and know not being locked into previous case theories and 637 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,519 that sort of thing. Typically, what we'll do is we'll 638 00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:49,640 reach out. Usually what I'm looking to do is get 639 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,720 past the switchboard thing, and what I'm really looking for 640 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:57,839 is email and cell phone contact details for those individuals, 641 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,240 because usually I want to talked to the case agents directly, 642 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,119 if at all possible. I think with all the changes 643 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,519 at the FBI, I actually think the top two people 644 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,039 at the FBI, Chris Ray and Paula Bate, have both 645 00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:19,079 resigned on the day before the inauguration. I'm not implying 646 00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:21,559 their hands on with the Colonial Parkway murders, but it's 647 00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:25,720 an interesting phenomenon. And then our longtime case agent just 648 00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:29,640 retired a couple of days before the new administration was 649 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,240 sworn in. And this is a federal agency. I just 650 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,599 got a phone call back from guy who's in charge 651 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,160 of the Newport News office, which is the responsible office. 652 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,240 He's gone too, He's moved on to a new role 653 00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:45,599 at the FBI. And now I just heard rumors that 654 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,160 the top guy at Norfolk is also going to be 655 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,079 moving on to a new role at the FBI. So 656 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,079 that's five people who are familiar with the Colonial Parkway murders, 657 00:33:56,119 --> 00:33:59,160 all of whom are going to be either completely gone 658 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,160 from the FBI or moved on to a new role, 659 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,880 So we find ourselves at an interesting crossroads. What I'll 660 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,559 be seeking, though, is the same kind of working relationship 661 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:14,400 where I can reach them quickly, seven days a week, 662 00:34:14,519 --> 00:34:19,280 because stuff happens. We'll see if the new team is 663 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,880 as open to direct communication with the families and with 664 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,000 me in particular. I'm hoping so, and actually. 665 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,679 Speaker 5: Bruce also to your point, one of the fun things 666 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,360 about knowing so many different true crime writers is a 667 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,880 lot of them have contacts with other law enforcement agents, 668 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,320 some of whom are working on cases that were interested in. 669 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,880 When I went to our friend Ron Peterson's book signing 670 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:48,519 back in July, I think it was he put me 671 00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:51,800 in contact with three different gentlemen who worked out of 672 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,119 the Chesapeake office that I was interested in getting in 673 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,960 contact with because there was a whole series of cold 674 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,320 cases out of Chesapeake, all these homicides of different women 675 00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:03,800 that haven't been solved yet. And as soon as I said, 676 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,760 do you know anybody, who was like, there's three people 677 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,119 over there, come on over, guys. 678 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,079 Speaker 3: So sometimes it really is just knowing the. 679 00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:12,199 Speaker 5: Right people looking forward to being able to follow up 680 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,199 on that. But I think knowing people who know people 681 00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:17,400 is also a good way to get your foot in 682 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,920 the door. That's excellent question. Anyone else have questions for us? Yeah, 683 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,719 come on up, Okay, all right, sure, that's. 684 00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 3: Such a great question. 685 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,039 Speaker 5: So the question is what can people whose ordinary concerned 686 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:33,960 Virginians do to encourage the FBI to test the evidence 687 00:35:34,159 --> 00:35:37,599 in the Colonial Parkway murders case, particularly Alan Weid Wilmer 688 00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:39,760 Seniors and put it in codis Bill. 689 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 3: You want to take that one. 690 00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one's a little bit of a tough one 691 00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:48,079 because we seem to be encountering some resistance from law enforcement. 692 00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:50,320 Let me back up for a seconds so people understand 693 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,559 the context of your question. A year ago, January eighth, 694 00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:59,239 twenty twenty four, FBI and Virginia State Police announced that 695 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:05,360 they had connected a deceased suspect named Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, 696 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,199 who's from Lancaster County, Virginia. He was a waterman and 697 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:17,199 had often worked out of the Hampton area. He had 698 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,199 been linked via DNA to one of the Colonial Parkway murders, 699 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,400 the murder of Robin Edwards and David Nobling. Of course, 700 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,119 we'd literally been begging Virginia State Police and FBI to 701 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,320 use advanced forensics and test the evidence. There was a 702 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,159 fair amount of evidence in the Colonial Parkway murders, but 703 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,480 there seems to be this very odd foot dragging phenomenon 704 00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:43,000 with both the Virginia State Police and the FBI. We're 705 00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:45,599 happy to report that there seems to be some forward 706 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,800 movement here. So they identified Wilmer as a suspect, and 707 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,719 they said that he was responsible for the murder of 708 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:58,639 Robin Edwards and David Nobbling. Further, they also identified him 709 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,440 as the rapist and mur or of a case that 710 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,960 we were not familiar with, Teresa Howell, who was murdered 711 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:10,039 in nineteen eighty nine. That links another murder into, at 712 00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:13,360 least from our perspective, into the Colonial Parkway murders. What 713 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,280 we were very unhappy about was the Virginia State Police 714 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,960 and the FBI went way out of their way on 715 00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:25,039 that press conference a year ago now. They never identified 716 00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:29,800 the case as the Colonial Parkway murders, and they refused 717 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,079 to answer our question, which was asked twice at the 718 00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:37,159 press conference by media people, including reporters. We know they 719 00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:41,679 were asked twice, can you say when Alan Wade Wilmer 720 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:47,199 Senior first moved on to your radar? They said no, twice, 721 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,960 that was the answer. No, we knew who Alan Wade 722 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,519 Wilmer was. First of all, we have sources inside the investigation, 723 00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:57,079 so we had several months noticed that Wilmer had been 724 00:37:57,119 --> 00:38:01,800 identified as a suspect. What was very frustrating is they 725 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:08,199 wouldn't admit publicly that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was also 726 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,360 the lead suspect in the disappearance of Keith Colin. Cassandra 727 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,320 Haley and I think from a transparency perspective, this is appalling. 728 00:38:18,199 --> 00:38:21,639 Why didn't they want to admit that because the FBI 729 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:27,239 had questioned Alan Wade Wilmer, had given him two polygraph exams, 730 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,199 one of which he passed, one of which was inconclusive. 731 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,719 In other words, they can't tell whether the person is 732 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,119 telling the truth or lying. I've spoken to the man 733 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:41,199 that gave them the polygraph exam thirty six years ago. 734 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,480 Even he says he wouldn't have let Wilmer go even 735 00:38:45,679 --> 00:38:51,199 after searching his home, searching his boat, testing evidence to 736 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,000 the limits of the nineteen eighties technology. I'm not trying 737 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:58,599 to be unfair to anybody and giving him two polygraph examinations, 738 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,800 they let him go, and they don't seem to have 739 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,360 ever revisited the fact that Wilmer was suspect number one 740 00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:09,760 in the Carl Hayley disappearance. We still feel like we're 741 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,760 encountering resistance from the FBI and the Virginia State Police 742 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,280 to putting Wilmer's DNA into the so called CODIS system, 743 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,039 which allows you to test DNA. Their claim is because 744 00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:26,719 Wilmer was never convicted of a crime, that he can't 745 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,519 be put into COTIS. I think this is a ridiculous loophole, 746 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,519 and I don't know whose civil rights were protecting. Wilmer's 747 00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:39,000 been dead since twenty seventeen, so why are we concerned 748 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:42,360 about a dead man's civil rights and not the rights 749 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,719 of the victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. We're not 750 00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:51,639 happy with the foot dragging that we're encountering here. I 751 00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:55,559 don't have a great answer for you yet on how 752 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,320 average citizens can get involved. We are going to pursue this. 753 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,320 We're not going to let this go. I believe in 754 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,679 civil rights, and I believe that there are rights of privacy, 755 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,320 but Wilmer's been dead since twenty seventeen. Whose rights are 756 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,760 we protecting? This one's an open issue from our perspective, 757 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,840 and obviously you can tell something I feel strongly about. 758 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 5: But I will say that when we have a more 759 00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:24,360 concrete idea of whether this takes a good old fashioned 760 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,800 letter writing campaign or something like that, we will let 761 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,559 you know because we want to put pressure on the 762 00:40:30,639 --> 00:40:34,239 FBI and let them know. You have the evidence, it's 763 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,199 time to test it, and it's time to put him 764 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:37,760 in Codis where he belongs. 765 00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 3: Robert, you got questions? Came on up? 766 00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 2: Oh, he's got questions on his iPhone. He's ready to go. 767 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,039 Speaker 6: I'll always forget unless I write it down. 768 00:40:46,199 --> 00:40:46,599 Speaker 3: Awesome. 769 00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:50,199 Speaker 6: So with the Teresa Howell case, we know that Alan 770 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,920 Wade Wilmer Senior assaulted and murdered her on the weekend 771 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,840 before fourth of July, right. I know in the other 772 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,679 unsolved cases there's usually a lay or close proximity to 773 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,000 a holiday weekend. Do you see that as a significant 774 00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:09,400 detail that would advance that theory he was involved in 775 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,440 all of the unsolved cases left in the Colonial Parkway murders. 776 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 2: I think it's a very strong possibility and hopefully. We've 777 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,880 been told that they're going to be doing advanced forensic 778 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,840 testing on new round of testing, which is good news. 779 00:41:26,519 --> 00:41:30,639 In the Carl Haley disappearance and in the Thomasdowski murder, 780 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,119 once again we seem to be hitting. I don't know 781 00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:37,800 if they put their foot firmly on the break, but 782 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,519 it just we were told we were going to have 783 00:41:39,559 --> 00:41:44,039 results in October and November, and here it is January 784 00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:47,159 and we still don't have results. I think there's a 785 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,679 very strong possibility that Wilmer is involved, and we've talked 786 00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:56,760 about the three day weekend possibility as well. It doesn't 787 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,159 strike us as a coincidence that a number of these 788 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,000 murders seem seem to happen on three day weekends. That 789 00:42:04,119 --> 00:42:07,559 pattern held, by the way, even in the recent solve 790 00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:11,280 in the Shenandoah murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Wyan, 791 00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:14,400 that was also over a three day weekend. Although they've 792 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,440 identified a different suspect, and assuming they're right, and I 793 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,000 think they are, that seems to be but different offender altogether. 794 00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:24,119 Speaker 5: I think your question also speaks to the need to 795 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,360 reprofile this case. I would love to see the current 796 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,480 BAU really take everything that they know, take everything they're 797 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,199 aware of about Wilmer, and do a complete reprofile. 798 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 3: Is that going to happen? Are we going to know 799 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,199 about it if it happens. 800 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:40,039 Speaker 5: Probably not, But I think that's something that would be 801 00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:42,840 really helpful considering that as a factor in three of 802 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:43,480 those cases. 803 00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 2: Acronym alert tell people what the BAU stands for. 804 00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 5: Behavioral analysis unit, the thing that I wish I could 805 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,559 have joined at some point or another, but I unfortunately 806 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:53,920 do not have the credentials or. 807 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:54,519 Speaker 3: The jobs for it. 808 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:57,760 Speaker 2: More questions go right ahead. 809 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 6: I got one follow up point. I know there's lot 810 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,679 of questions around how Keith's car ended up on the 811 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,119 Colonial Parkway, given that it was so out of the 812 00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:08,320 way of where they were going that night or where 813 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,079 people thought they were going. Has there ever been any 814 00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:15,039 documentation of what his gas tank was at when they 815 00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:16,000 found the car. 816 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,360 Speaker 2: I don't know that I've ever heard that. That's an 817 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,840 interesting question. Good there's let me elaborate. For people that 818 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,320 are less familiar Keith calling Cassandra Haley, who technically are 819 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,360 missing persons, their bodies have still never been found. I 820 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,880 think it's a fairly safe assumption after thirty six years, 821 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,000 They're not walking through the door anytime soon. They were 822 00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:42,239 last seen together at a party at what is now 823 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,760 called Christopher Newport University in Newport News, at an apartment 824 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,320 complex which is no longer there. They were due home 825 00:43:50,679 --> 00:43:52,559 and this sort of makes me smile when I think 826 00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:55,559 about myself as a much younger man. They were due 827 00:43:55,599 --> 00:44:00,280 home for a two am curfew. Her parents life lived 828 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:06,119 in the Grafting section of at Newport News, Yorktown. Thank you. 829 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,199 What's odd about where the car was found, which is 830 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,000 on the Colonial Parkway, it's two point four miles away 831 00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:15,519 from where my sister's car was found also on the 832 00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:19,199 Colonial Parkway, is that it's fifteen to twenty minutes out 833 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,920 of the way. That kind of doesn't make sense. And 834 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,719 the cal and Haley families feel very strongly that Keith 835 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,039 and Sandy would not have gone to the parkway. Remember 836 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,760 a year and a half prior, my sister Kathy Thomas 837 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,039 and her girlfriend of Beckadowski were brutally murdered on the 838 00:44:38,079 --> 00:44:42,599 Colonial Parkway. It might not have been a top choice. 839 00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:45,840 And it's fifteen to twenty minutes out of the way, 840 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,639 and they have a two am curfew it feels to 841 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,800 our current team of investigators as if disappearance but likely 842 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,639 homicide of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley may have happened elsewhere. 843 00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:01,760 And then there's the placement of the Toyota Celica Keith's 844 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,599 car on the parkway. I've never had anybody mention the 845 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,400 amount of gas in the car. 846 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 6: It's something I was thinking when I was re listening 847 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,239 to one of the episodes. You know, there's a question. 848 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 5: About yeah, no follow up with us before you leave, 849 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,199 so I can write that down. I think that's a 850 00:45:17,199 --> 00:45:17,800 great question. 851 00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 2: Much of the evidence that's being retested and we hear 852 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,519 there may be some results pending, is evidence of items 853 00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:28,679 that were in Keith's car the next day when they 854 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,960 found the Toyota Celica on the Colonial Parkway makes sense. 855 00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 7: Thank you, guys, Thank you. 856 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,519 Speaker 3: I think we need to wrap it up here, mister. 857 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 2: Thomas, unless people have more questions. 858 00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 5: There are plenty ways that you can help us with 859 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,599 our advocacy, and if there's any way that we can 860 00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:46,400 help you with yours, please reach out. We are more 861 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,000 than happy to help you, whether it is building websites, 862 00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:53,480 helping you start your own podcast, or anything else. The 863 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,239 ways that you can help us, or to follow us 864 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,480 on social media if you're not doing it already, share 865 00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:00,679 our content, subscribe to the pod like us US, review US, 866 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,039 share us. We do have merch from tea Public and 867 00:46:03,079 --> 00:46:05,400 it is fully customizable, so all you have to do 868 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,559 is go to teapublic dot com, type in Mind over 869 00:46:07,639 --> 00:46:11,320 Murder and you can get our logo on everything pretty much. 870 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 3: You've got a sweatshirt. I got a bunch of shirts. 871 00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I put my Mind of a Murder t shirts 872 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,239 away until it's warmed up again. There's mug sweatshirts. 873 00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 5: Now, yeah, there's mugs. There's wall hangings, there's all sorts 874 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:23,039 of stuff. 875 00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:24,159 Speaker 3: There's a laptop case. 876 00:46:24,599 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 5: We do have a go fundme going not right at 877 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:27,800 the moment, but I think we'll go ahead and open 878 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,719 it back up so that we can continue to hold 879 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,039 live events and speak at Crime Con, which is going 880 00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:35,000 to be in Denver in September, and various other places. 881 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,639 We want to thank you guys very much for being 882 00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:39,960 here today, for listening to us talk about our case 883 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,280 and about our advocacy. Please make sure that you do 884 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,280 pick up some informational postcards at our table outside and 885 00:46:47,679 --> 00:46:50,960 keep sharing liking, rating, reviewing, and asking us the hard 886 00:46:51,039 --> 00:46:53,159 questions because that's what we're here for. 887 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 2: And finally, we want to thank the Montclair Library for 888 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,599 hosting us today. We really appreciate it. They reached out 889 00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:00,559 to us and said would we do this thing, and 890 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:04,159 we said sure, why not? And so thank you to 891 00:47:04,199 --> 00:47:06,679 Michelle and her team here. They've done a fantastic job 892 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,519 and it made us feel very welcome. Davey gave us pizza. 893 00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:13,639 Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of 894 00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:16,400 mind Over Murder live from the Montclair Public Library. 895 00:47:17,079 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 896 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 897 00:47:33,559 --> 00:47:35,000 Another Dog Productions. 898 00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 899 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,639 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 900 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 901 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 902 00:47:49,559 --> 00:47:52,760 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 903 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,519 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 904 00:47:55,599 --> 00:47:57,480 Murders on Facebook. 905 00:47:57,199 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 906 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:01,880 Bill Thomas five six. 907 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,280 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.