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Every 24 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.319 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.959 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 26 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:48.680 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Hello, this is your host 27 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.040 Danzepaski for the program True Murder, the most shocking killers 28 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.680 in true crime history and the authors that have written 29 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:59.079 about them. My special guest today is Mara Martin Gale. 30 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:04.359 She has written a book called Cannibal Killers. These are 31 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.280 no ordinary killers. They are monsters who murder, mutilate, and 32 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:12.240 carry out the most gruesome, unimaginable act of all, eating 33 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:17.240 the flesh of their victims. Cannibal Killers includes the world's 34 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:22.800 most evil psychopaths, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gain and Andre Chicatillo, 35 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:28.680 with eight pages of harrowing photographs Morea Martingale. I'm not 36 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.240 sure if we have a connection with Morea Martingale as 37 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:33.759 of yet. I think we may have a problem. But 38 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.240 let's see if we have more of Martingale. 39 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:48.400 Hello, Mora. Anyway, we may have a problem miscommunication. Mora 40 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:53.560 is in Great Britain and I've changed the time of 41 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:57.000 my program from eight am eight pm in the evening 42 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.280 to nine am to accommodate this interview. 43 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:00.840 There may have been some. 44 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:06.439 Miscommunication exactly what who she was supposed to call at 45 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:10.800 that time. So until she does get my email and 46 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:15.039 the number, I will go through her book for her 47 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:19.759 until we get her on the line. Anyway, the book 48 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:24.560 is called Cannibal Killers and More. Martingale is the author 49 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:27.960 and this book came out in nineteen ninety three, first 50 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:31.159 in Great Britain, and then I was going to ask 51 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:34.960 her the question about further publishing. But the book copy 52 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:39.840 I have is Saint Martin's Press, so that's its distributor 53 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:45.039 in America. Anyway, this book has been a bestseller for years. 54 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:48.080 I've seen it on the shelves for many years. I 55 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:50.560 wouldn't say I saw in the nineties, but I've seen 56 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:56.360 it for many years, and it's an incredible book. It does. 57 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.439 The publisher is trying to get people in trust in 58 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:04.199 the book by discussing the world's most evil psychopast Jeffrey 59 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:09.800 Dahmer at Gaine and Andre Chickatillo. But she also discusses 60 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:16.199 other cases and with her background in clinical psychology, let 61 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:27.319 me actually get her background for you here. She is 62 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:31.519 particularly interested in a normal and clinical psychology and when 63 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:38.360 she did her psychology when she actually did her psychology degree, 64 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:42.040 and she also had an interest in Gothic literature and 65 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:44.439 did a fair amount of research, and an interest in 66 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.600 evolutionary psychology and anthropology, and a lot of these things 67 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:54.279 came together to be able to have her put assemble 68 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:57.399 this incredible book called Cannibal Killers. Let's see if we 69 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.240 have her on the air right now. Hello, Mora, Hi, 70 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:06.240 how are you fine? Thank you well, thank you, thank 71 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:09.439 you very much, Thank you very much for agreeing to 72 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:12.199 our interview today. What I did in the interim while 73 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:15.319 we got you connected was to have me introduce the 74 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:18.959 book a little bit. Uh So, I will thank you 75 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:21.600 very much for green in this interview, and welcome to 76 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:25.319 the program, and we're going to be talking about Cannibal Killers, 77 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.079 your incredible book. Now, what I was just going through 78 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.480 just a little bit for our audience was your background 79 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:35.040 that enabled you to be able to write this incredible book. 80 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:38.000 The perspective that you chose was quite different from many, 81 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:40.680 well almost all of the true crime books that I 82 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.399 have read of that genre. Let me ask you, what 83 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:47.800 is your educational background that enabled you to write this 84 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.399 book and why were you interested in writing this book, 85 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:52.600 what issues did you want to explore? 86 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.319 Well? Educational background, I did a degree in psychology and 87 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:01.199 a degree in psychology and English, actually my first degree, 88 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.639 and I did an awful lot in the psychology part 89 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:09.759 with abnormal and clinical psychology. Then I went on to 90 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:12.959 do a master's degree in English, and I did it 91 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:18.680 awful lot on gossip literature, circular and nineteenth century Gothic literature, 92 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:21.480 and then I went on to do a pH d 93 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:26.120 in Gothic literature. So I suppose the literature aspects which 94 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:34.480 also overlaps on evolutionary psychology and anthropological interests, I suppose 95 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.839 I would call it because I wouldn't say an expert 96 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.199 of anthropology, But I suppose it was all those things 97 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:43.959 that came together. Because the literary parts of writing about 98 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:46.720 Gracula are various of vampire novels. You have an awful 99 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.360 lot of the blood lust aspects of sexual aspects of 100 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:53.399 books like Dracula and if Anyone's Ever Revenue and Rice, 101 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:59.839 those sort of the sexuality that's attached to blood drinking, 102 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.680 which has its roots in lots of other things like 103 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:06.319 religion and so on, and our own primitive past. So 104 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:09.439 I suppose all those are the things that drove me. 105 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.160 And I suppose the first question is that when they 106 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:17.759 had the issue of Jeffrey Darmer and are Tiptilo in Russia, 107 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:20.439 they were all out. This all happened about the same 108 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:24.040 time the Silence of the Lambs came out, And because 109 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:26.879 I had a lot of research, and because the Silence 110 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.959 of the Lambs seemed to be creating such a lot 111 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:33.759 of shock, I well, people, What people were saying is 112 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:37.600 what earth possesses anyone to do something like this, to 113 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:42.120 kinnibalize somebody else's body? And I suppose I set out 114 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:46.319 to answer that question in more of a research way 115 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:50.360 than just writing a sort of verbal litery version of 116 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:52.240 a slasher movie. I didn't really want it just to 117 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:54.480 be like that. I wanted it to actually have some 118 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.800 sensible research behind it, so that I tried to do. 119 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:00.480 Whether it was successful or not is the base of 120 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:01.079 all of course. 121 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:05.800 Right now, for the specific research done for the board, 122 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:08.680 how long did it take? And maybe you can tell 123 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:11.680 our audience three research you found out some of the 124 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:14.120 history of cannibalism. Can you give us a little bit 125 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:14.360 of that. 126 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:18.360 Well, the problem is that you when you talk about 127 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:21.600 cannibalism you have different aspects of it. You have the 128 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:25.079 aspects of people who used to we looked at our ancestors. 129 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:27.720 The cannibalism was very much and that is in our 130 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:31.800 own history. And you do get instances like the saorny 131 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:35.480 Bean case in Scotland back in now when was it 132 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:40.120 fifteth century and he and his whole family lived out 133 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:45.039 in a cave and apparently just ex people. It capture 134 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:47.120 people who were on the road and adept them. I 135 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:49.360 don't think there was any sexual aspect of that at 136 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:53.360 that time. I think it was purely expedients, if you like, 137 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:56.679 because they were hungry, and well they're not all they 138 00:08:56.679 --> 00:08:58.480 were hungry, but that was what they did. 139 00:08:58.480 --> 00:08:59.279 They didn't do it. 140 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:02.799 The whole family didn't eat other people for the sort 141 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:06.360 of reasons why we're seeing ar sadistic killers these days 142 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:10.559 doing it. They were just predators and they just regarded 143 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:13.240 any prey, whether they had four legs of two as 144 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:17.000 being fair game. And they killed I think it was 145 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:23.440 something like forty fifty people that they actually consumed. And 146 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.720 I think there's also cases like the internesces in the 147 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.639 Andes were people's plane crashed and that was in the 148 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.879 nineteen seventies, I think, and they had nothing else to eat, 149 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.879 and they sent to cannibis into stair lives. And I mean, 150 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:39.360 I think we see this sort of great fear, the 151 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.720 terrible fear that everybody has beaken their psychees of being eaten. 152 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:47.600 You see that in films like The Road and books 153 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:49.440 like The Roads. And I say, which I don't know 154 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:54.320 whether any of your listeners have seen, but life breaks down, 155 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.759 society breaks down, and there are then crowds of cannibals 156 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:02.759 that have to be avoided. And it's the full horror 157 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.200 of that. So that there's that aspect of cannibalism mixed 158 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:11.360 in with all the mythical tribal belief systems which are 159 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:17.360 generally had two religion and religious directives either imagine well 160 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.360 all imagine that religion. If you take if you take 161 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:25.000 religion as meaning anything from tribal belief systems to modern 162 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:30.480 religions which have lasted for centuries, you have a lot 163 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:34.559 of blood beliefs attached to all those as well. Yes, 164 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:35.960 did you question or not? 165 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:38.919 Yes? Yes, yes, you've covered quite a bit of it. 166 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.360 I was surprised though, to read like you do make 167 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.720 the point there that it regardless of whether it's a 168 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:50.080 primitive primal pardon me, a primitive society will say, or 169 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.480 whether it's a modern society that's that has to developed religion, 170 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.200 there still has been these aspects of blood letting and 171 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:00.480 cannibalism and some of these things that are all in twined, 172 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.120 as you say, But I was surprised to read about 173 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.279 each in China's history regarding canonalism. Maybe could tell us 174 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:09.519 a little bit about that. I thought that was very surprising. 175 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.840 That is really quite shocking, isn't it that I opened 176 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:16.240 the book with that, But actually it wasn't that many 177 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:20.080 centuries ago. But yes, they used us slave girls. I 178 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.519 spect it was basically canibalism. All these other sadistic murders, 179 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:27.240 it's basically using people as objects, and it's the people 180 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:29.759 who have power use the people who are powerless. And 181 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:36.200 with slavery and our whole history, in that particular case, 182 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.559 they would they were actually slave girls who were very beautiful, 183 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.120 and they would bring them in and people who were 184 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.480 the banquets, the wealthy, the wealthy people who are the 185 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.159 king's guests would sort of see these these beautiful young 186 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.440 girls and their mouths of water. The thought that they 187 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:55.440 were going to be eating them soon, because then they 188 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.120 would take the girls away and they would they would 189 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.320 kill them and eat them, just like you know, you're 190 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:04.399 going to a restaurant and see certain salmon in a 191 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:06.720 in a tank and say, well, actually, I'd like to 192 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:09.799 have that one, or a mobster or a crab. It 193 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:13.559 was the same principle at work. It's just like an 194 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:19.679 effort of incredible demonstration of power that studies were just 195 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.639 objects powerful families. 196 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.279 And this carried on for about three hundred years according 197 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:26.759 to your book. 198 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.759 If it did, I'm trying to think of the most 199 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:36.360 recent date when it was actually still in force. I 200 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:40.679 think it was probably probably about sixteen hundred and seventeen 201 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:44.000 hundreds when this is still going on in certain places 202 00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:46.720 in the world. Maybe not necessarily ancient China, but but 203 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.279 there was still Actually I don't think it might have 204 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:53.360 been it was still ancient China when it was going on. 205 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:55.720 I'm sorry, I haven't got dates to in my mind, 206 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.759 but I know it was comparatively recently, quite shockingly recently. Really, 207 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:02.480 we look back to our history. We're not just talking 208 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:05.000 mean before here, No. 209 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.759 No, it's interesting and incredible. Now we need to before 210 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:11.200 we go into an exploration of some of these worst 211 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:15.440 the evil psychopaths, as your book reports to have included 212 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.960 in the book. We need to discuss just a few things. Well, 213 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.000 I think we need to discuss why this seemingly alien behavior, 214 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.399 this derange act of eating another human, it's not classified 215 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:30.879 as insanity, And maybe then we can maybe we can 216 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:34.159 just start with that. We will talk about the psychopathology, 217 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:37.799 about the psychopathic killer as well, just to prepare people 218 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.759 so that we have a basis to understand what we're 219 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:41.519 talking about here. 220 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:47.639 Right, Well, they arguing about sanity is very interesting because 221 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:49.639 of course we would all say, as somebody who does 222 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:53.320 something like this especially insane, that Mayoboda's saying human could 223 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:57.000 do the sort of things that we witness these people doing. Right, 224 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.519 But I suppose in a legal sense, what they're looking 225 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:04.720 for people who actually are able to plan. They say, 226 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:07.000 those sort of two sorts of killers. There's a sort 227 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:11.879 of organized and sort of non social killer. They plan, 228 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:15.399 they behave in a normal way. They plan the crimes 229 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:18.720 in a very detailed way. They don't actually kill anybody 230 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.559 when they think they might get caught, so they go 231 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.279 equipped and they make detail plans such as, for instance, 232 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.559 Jeffrey Darmer when he was going out to gay clubs 233 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:31.120 to try and pick up young men to bring home 234 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:35.080 to s wanted to drive and kill and eat and 235 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.440 have sex with. He would prepare his room in advance, 236 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:42.559 so he'd move all the furnitures, there's plenty of room, 237 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:45.039 and he would set the videos so that he had 238 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:47.200 a film to show them while he gave them a 239 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.600 drink with drugs in. So it was all extremely organized. 240 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:55.279 Quite often these sort of criminals might, even when they 241 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:58.039 killed somebody, take the body away and hide it, or 242 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:00.799 they might even put it somewhere later on so that 243 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.519 someone will be found. Someone will find it, and then 244 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:08.279 they'll follow the case with great excitement because they get 245 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.039 off on the fact that the police don't know who 246 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.159 it is and that they do. And then you have 247 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:18.039 the disorganized, a social killer who they are more to 248 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:21.480 be seen as sort of sendless outsider characters who are 249 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:23.440 loan as many most of them, a lot of people 250 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:27.159 are loaners who are still organized. It doesn't exactly fall 251 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:31.240 into completely black and white counts here, but they murder 252 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:34.159 in a more uncontrolled way. They don't have the same method, 253 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:38.120 they don't take as much care, they usually get found 254 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:42.440 more quickly because they aren't as careful. They're more likely 255 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.360 to kill somebody and then abandon the body and just 256 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:49.919 escape because they haven't actually thought it through, so they 257 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:56.200 are considered to be disorganized asocial. I guess that those 258 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:59.320 sorts of killers who do act in a framezy without 259 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:04.120 preparation are considered an insanity verdict is more like is 260 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:04.879 be considered for that. 261 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.279 It is Ryan here and I have a question for you. 262 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:09.440 What do you do when you win? 263 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:09.919 Like? 264 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:13.000 Are you a fist pumper, a woo or a handclapp 265 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.919 or a high fiver? 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There are new game releases weekly, 270 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.519 plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait start having the 271 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:32.279 most fun ever at chumba Casino dot com. 272 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.240 Were necessary void if I lost? 273 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:35.480 In terms of conditions eighteen plus. 274 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:39.879 Perhaps than the organized killer, because what they're looking at 275 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.960 is what legal legally they're looking at, is the crime 276 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:45.799 whether the person without of his mind when he committed 277 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.879 the crime, not really what they did afterwards with the body, 278 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.759 but basically whether they were insane and in the grip 279 00:16:52.840 --> 00:17:00.919 of some sort of craized disorganized when when they did it. 280 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.079 And most of the killers that that we've looked at, 281 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:06.759 as I looked at in the book, were not. They 282 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.559 were very methodical, but that's why they managed to escape 283 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:10.079 for so long. 284 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:12.559 I suppose the least methodical of all of them. 285 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:17.880 Was Richard Chase from Sacramento, who he was known as 286 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:21.960 a vampire killer. He bought a gun and he practiced 287 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.920 and very rarely do sadistic killers use guns, but that 288 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:28.920 he wanted blood and he did not take the source 289 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:34.079 of care. I suppose that some of the others it 290 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:35.839 makes it down and playing taking care it makes it 291 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:40.440 something like the positive attributes. Obviously it's not, but that 292 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:45.880 he did act in a more praised way. But the 293 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.039 sanity argument, it does go back to the history where 294 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.759 where they that is essentially that is essentially did they 295 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:54.400 know what they were doing? Did they know the difference 296 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:58.480 between right and wrong when they actually committed the crime? 297 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.480 Right now, you were talking about Jeffrey Dahmer, and he's 298 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:05.440 a great case and that's why you likely included it 299 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:07.960 in your book, because there is quite a bit to 300 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:12.720 discuss and quite a bit to see with his particular case. Now, 301 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.160 Jeffrey Dahmer is fairly well known, and I remember seeing 302 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.079 the movie Silence of the Lambs and finding an the 303 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.160 credible and then a few months later in Milwaukee, Jeffrey Dahmer, 304 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.359 real life cannibal killer, was arrested, and his crimes were, 305 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.920 obviously people know, more horrifying than any fictional book or 306 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.240 movie could ever be. Now, there seems to be a 307 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:34.759 fair amount of psychiatric study of Dahmer. Having the cooperation 308 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:39.279 from his family and even Dahmer himself helped authorities collect 309 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:43.240 valuable information about him, especially in regards to his upbringing 310 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.200 and its effect on him and as eventual progression to 311 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:51.839 serial killer later and he was when we talked about 312 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.599 organized and disorganized, They do classify him as being mixed, 313 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.839 and a trial there really was an issue of whether 314 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.119 he was an insane were at least insane at some point. 315 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.920 Can you talk a little bit about Dahmer and what 316 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.680 you found interesting about some of the study that was 317 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.480 done after the fact, Given that Dahmer was willing to 318 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:16.759 talk and not attribute some of his behavior. Well, maybe 319 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.000 you can tell us a little bit about that. 320 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:23.400 I think you have to explain that further. 321 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.480 Well, the thing is, the thing is with Jeffrey Dahmer 322 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:30.400 that his father was interviewed and Jeffrey Dahmer was interviewed, 323 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:33.920 and Dahmer was very adamant to say that, and there 324 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:36.799 was evidence as well that there was not much of 325 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:45.880 the typical attributation, you know, attributation in terms of his background, 326 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.039 in terms of his eventual progression to serial killer. He 327 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:50.799 wouldn't fit a profile. 328 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.319 Yeah, because of course, the usual thing is to look 329 00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:00.119 at the background of these statistic killers and you can 330 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:07.319 usually find a very troubled childhood and difficulties with parental arguments, 331 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.400 rouse violence, neglects, And there wasn't really any of that 332 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:16.240 really with Darma. He had a very happy childhood really 333 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:20.319 in terms of what his family offered us. The family 334 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:27.240 were not neglectful family or violent, and he when they 335 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.200 were searching for possible reasons as to why he turned 336 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.920 out that he had the sort of reasons that almost 337 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.839 heavy feeble ones like, oh, well, he was very jealous 338 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.279 when his younger brother was born when he was six 339 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.480 perhaps all over the place, and they don't all turning 340 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:49.200 to kill us. He was doing things like finding road 341 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.119 killed victims animals on the road and putting them up 342 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:55.759 when he was a very small boy, and one of 343 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:00.279 the and he was omitting to being sexually stimulated when 344 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.880 they were cutting up animals in biology, which again is 345 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.920 so extreme that nobody would really think that they could 346 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.480 identify with that and one of the other the other 347 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.720 psychological requirements. I suppose that people would find to say, 348 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.799 this will deflect someone from their possible their possible path 349 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:26.799 of the murder is that not necessarily a close and 350 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.759 internal relationship, but a relationship with somebody, the person who 351 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:34.200 makes a difference, who could actually save them if you like, 352 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.720 by having a close relationship. Well, I think Jeffrey Darmer 353 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.839 was pretty well adored by his grandmother, and his parents 354 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.839 were not too bad parents, and his brother, of course 355 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:50.880 was fine. So there were no there were no real 356 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.519 there were no real reasons that you could actually put 357 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.200 your single on other than something in the genetic makeup 358 00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:02.160 somewhere that some wires the go across somewhere in this child. 359 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:08.279 Because there were so many there were so many possible thoughts, 360 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.599 someone said it was because he was gay, but not 361 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.920 someone said, one of the psychological reports is he was gay, 362 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.240 but he really hated his own homosexuality, and so therefore 363 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:22.240 he would project that onto his victims, and that's why 364 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:26.880 that's why he did this. But I mean, that's also 365 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:30.839 wasn't really a case for cannibalism. That might have been 366 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.000 a reason why he hated his interprets wanted to kill 367 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.680 other gay people. But when you say full stops, really 368 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.559 the rest of it. They trying to drill holes in 369 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.079 their heads from fermamento zombies, you know, removing the flesh 370 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.960 and saving the skeletons and hanging the skeletons in the 371 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:51.720 shower to take photographs of them, and keeping heads and 372 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:55.160 fridges and performing sex acts on them. And this was 373 00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:00.240 also the absolute far reaches of extreme behavior of it 374 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:05.200 that nothing could be an exploration. That don't seem to 375 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:08.440 be any real explorations as to why he became like 376 00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:13.519 he was that you could find in other murderers that 377 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:16.720 I looked at, at least, what. 378 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.200 Is surprising to the when you first read about the 379 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.480 motivation for some of these serial killers and some of 380 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:27.759 the outrageous acts that they do the obvious overkill, the mutilation, 381 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.839 posing of victims, all sorts of characteristics and signature of 382 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.599 some of these serial killers. Did you find in your 383 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:42.079 research that the actual added horror of cannibalism as a 384 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:45.279 feature of some of these serial killers, was that also 385 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.799 involved with the sex act as well? Is it sexual 386 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:50.359 to these people? 387 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:53.920 Yes, it's the ultimate act of power. Isn't it the 388 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:58.480 absorption of that person and continue destruction of that person 389 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:04.799 and wanting to make them of themselves and be powerful. That, Uh, 390 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:12.319 the statistic stabbing and mutilation and so on, there isn't 391 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:16.279 necessarily a sex fact as we would interpret sex acts. 392 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:17.599 Attached to that. 393 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:22.000 I'm probably repeating things that you already know here, But 394 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:28.799 the actual frenzy of stabbing and mutilating is the sort 395 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:32.720 of is the sexual gratification, and a killer may have 396 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:35.559 an all gather in doing that without actually having what 397 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:39.200 we would consider the normal sects. So if you if 398 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:43.839 you're looking at at this sort of behavior biting and 399 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.440 that the biting acts, which of course is very much 400 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:51.440 tied up with sexuality in our primitive backgrounds and in 401 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:57.400