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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Hello, this is your host
Speaker 6: Danzepaski for the program True Murder, the most shocking killers
Speaker 6: in true crime history and the authors that have written
Speaker 6: about them. My special guest today is Mara Martin Gale.
Speaker 6: She has written a book called Cannibal Killers. These are
Speaker 6: no ordinary killers. They are monsters who murder, mutilate, and
Speaker 6: carry out the most gruesome, unimaginable act of all, eating
Speaker 6: the flesh of their victims. Cannibal Killers includes the world's
Speaker 6: most evil psychopaths, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gain and Andre Chicatillo,
Speaker 6: with eight pages of harrowing photographs Morea Martingale. I'm not
Speaker 6: sure if we have a connection with Morea Martingale as
Speaker 6: of yet. I think we may have a problem. But
Speaker 6: let's see if we have more of Martingale.
Speaker 7: Hello, Mora. Anyway, we may have a problem miscommunication. Mora
Speaker 7: is in Great Britain and I've changed the time of
Speaker 7: my program from eight am eight pm in the evening
Speaker 7: to nine am to accommodate this interview.
Speaker 6: There may have been some.
Speaker 7: Miscommunication exactly what who she was supposed to call at
Speaker 7: that time. So until she does get my email and
Speaker 7: the number, I will go through her book for her
Speaker 7: until we get her on the line. Anyway, the book
Speaker 7: is called Cannibal Killers and More. Martingale is the author
Speaker 7: and this book came out in nineteen ninety three, first
Speaker 7: in Great Britain, and then I was going to ask
Speaker 7: her the question about further publishing. But the book copy
Speaker 7: I have is Saint Martin's Press, so that's its distributor
Speaker 7: in America. Anyway, this book has been a bestseller for years.
Speaker 7: I've seen it on the shelves for many years. I
Speaker 7: wouldn't say I saw in the nineties, but I've seen
Speaker 7: it for many years, and it's an incredible book. It does.
Speaker 7: The publisher is trying to get people in trust in
Speaker 7: the book by discussing the world's most evil psychopast Jeffrey
Speaker 7: Dahmer at Gaine and Andre Chickatillo. But she also discusses
Speaker 7: other cases and with her background in clinical psychology, let
Speaker 7: me actually get her background for you here. She is
Speaker 7: particularly interested in a normal and clinical psychology and when
Speaker 7: she did her psychology when she actually did her psychology degree,
Speaker 7: and she also had an interest in Gothic literature and
Speaker 7: did a fair amount of research, and an interest in
Speaker 7: evolutionary psychology and anthropology, and a lot of these things
Speaker 7: came together to be able to have her put assemble
Speaker 7: this incredible book called Cannibal Killers. Let's see if we
Speaker 7: have her on the air right now. Hello, Mora, Hi,
Speaker 7: how are you fine? Thank you well, thank you, thank
Speaker 7: you very much, Thank you very much for agreeing to
Speaker 7: our interview today. What I did in the interim while
Speaker 7: we got you connected was to have me introduce the
Speaker 7: book a little bit. Uh So, I will thank you
Speaker 7: very much for green in this interview, and welcome to
Speaker 7: the program, and we're going to be talking about Cannibal Killers,
Speaker 7: your incredible book. Now, what I was just going through
Speaker 7: just a little bit for our audience was your background
Speaker 7: that enabled you to be able to write this incredible book.
Speaker 7: The perspective that you chose was quite different from many,
Speaker 7: well almost all of the true crime books that I
Speaker 7: have read of that genre. Let me ask you, what
Speaker 7: is your educational background that enabled you to write this
Speaker 7: book and why were you interested in writing this book,
Speaker 7: what issues did you want to explore?
Speaker 2: Well? Educational background, I did a degree in psychology and
Speaker 2: a degree in psychology and English, actually my first degree,
Speaker 2: and I did an awful lot in the psychology part
Speaker 2: with abnormal and clinical psychology. Then I went on to
Speaker 2: do a master's degree in English, and I did it
Speaker 2: awful lot on gossip literature, circular and nineteenth century Gothic literature,
Speaker 2: and then I went on to do a pH d
Speaker 2: in Gothic literature. So I suppose the literature aspects which
Speaker 2: also overlaps on evolutionary psychology and anthropological interests, I suppose
Speaker 2: I would call it because I wouldn't say an expert
Speaker 2: of anthropology, But I suppose it was all those things
Speaker 2: that came together. Because the literary parts of writing about
Speaker 2: Gracula are various of vampire novels. You have an awful
Speaker 2: lot of the blood lust aspects of sexual aspects of
Speaker 2: books like Dracula and if Anyone's Ever Revenue and Rice,
Speaker 2: those sort of the sexuality that's attached to blood drinking,
Speaker 2: which has its roots in lots of other things like
Speaker 2: religion and so on, and our own primitive past. So
Speaker 2: I suppose all those are the things that drove me.
Speaker 2: And I suppose the first question is that when they
Speaker 2: had the issue of Jeffrey Darmer and are Tiptilo in Russia,
Speaker 2: they were all out. This all happened about the same
Speaker 2: time the Silence of the Lambs came out, And because
Speaker 2: I had a lot of research, and because the Silence
Speaker 2: of the Lambs seemed to be creating such a lot
Speaker 2: of shock, I well, people, What people were saying is
Speaker 2: what earth possesses anyone to do something like this, to
Speaker 2: kinnibalize somebody else's body? And I suppose I set out
Speaker 2: to answer that question in more of a research way
Speaker 2: than just writing a sort of verbal litery version of
Speaker 2: a slasher movie. I didn't really want it just to
Speaker 2: be like that. I wanted it to actually have some
Speaker 2: sensible research behind it, so that I tried to do.
Speaker 2: Whether it was successful or not is the base of
Speaker 2: all of course.
Speaker 7: Right now, for the specific research done for the board,
Speaker 7: how long did it take? And maybe you can tell
Speaker 7: our audience three research you found out some of the
Speaker 7: history of cannibalism. Can you give us a little bit
Speaker 7: of that.
Speaker 2: Well, the problem is that you when you talk about
Speaker 2: cannibalism you have different aspects of it. You have the
Speaker 2: aspects of people who used to we looked at our ancestors.
Speaker 2: The cannibalism was very much and that is in our
Speaker 2: own history. And you do get instances like the saorny
Speaker 2: Bean case in Scotland back in now when was it
Speaker 2: fifteth century and he and his whole family lived out
Speaker 2: in a cave and apparently just ex people. It capture
Speaker 2: people who were on the road and adept them. I
Speaker 2: don't think there was any sexual aspect of that at
Speaker 2: that time. I think it was purely expedients, if you like,
Speaker 2: because they were hungry, and well they're not all they
Speaker 2: were hungry, but that was what they did.
Speaker 5: They didn't do it.
Speaker 2: The whole family didn't eat other people for the sort
Speaker 2: of reasons why we're seeing ar sadistic killers these days
Speaker 2: doing it. They were just predators and they just regarded
Speaker 2: any prey, whether they had four legs of two as
Speaker 2: being fair game. And they killed I think it was
Speaker 2: something like forty fifty people that they actually consumed. And
Speaker 2: I think there's also cases like the internesces in the
Speaker 2: Andes were people's plane crashed and that was in the
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, I think, and they had nothing else to eat,
Speaker 2: and they sent to cannibis into stair lives. And I mean,
Speaker 2: I think we see this sort of great fear, the
Speaker 2: terrible fear that everybody has beaken their psychees of being eaten.
Speaker 2: You see that in films like The Road and books
Speaker 2: like The Roads. And I say, which I don't know
Speaker 2: whether any of your listeners have seen, but life breaks down,
Speaker 2: society breaks down, and there are then crowds of cannibals
Speaker 2: that have to be avoided. And it's the full horror
Speaker 2: of that. So that there's that aspect of cannibalism mixed
Speaker 2: in with all the mythical tribal belief systems which are
Speaker 2: generally had two religion and religious directives either imagine well
Speaker 2: all imagine that religion. If you take if you take
Speaker 2: religion as meaning anything from tribal belief systems to modern
Speaker 2: religions which have lasted for centuries, you have a lot
Speaker 2: of blood beliefs attached to all those as well. Yes,
Speaker 2: did you question or not?
Speaker 7: Yes? Yes, yes, you've covered quite a bit of it.
Speaker 7: I was surprised though, to read like you do make
Speaker 7: the point there that it regardless of whether it's a
Speaker 7: primitive primal pardon me, a primitive society will say, or
Speaker 7: whether it's a modern society that's that has to developed religion,
Speaker 7: there still has been these aspects of blood letting and
Speaker 7: cannibalism and some of these things that are all in twined,
Speaker 7: as you say, But I was surprised to read about
Speaker 7: each in China's history regarding canonalism. Maybe could tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about that. I thought that was very surprising.
Speaker 2: That is really quite shocking, isn't it that I opened
Speaker 2: the book with that, But actually it wasn't that many
Speaker 2: centuries ago. But yes, they used us slave girls. I
Speaker 2: spect it was basically canibalism. All these other sadistic murders,
Speaker 2: it's basically using people as objects, and it's the people
Speaker 2: who have power use the people who are powerless. And
Speaker 2: with slavery and our whole history, in that particular case,
Speaker 2: they would they were actually slave girls who were very beautiful,
Speaker 2: and they would bring them in and people who were
Speaker 2: the banquets, the wealthy, the wealthy people who are the
Speaker 2: king's guests would sort of see these these beautiful young
Speaker 2: girls and their mouths of water. The thought that they
Speaker 2: were going to be eating them soon, because then they
Speaker 2: would take the girls away and they would they would
Speaker 2: kill them and eat them, just like you know, you're
Speaker 2: going to a restaurant and see certain salmon in a
Speaker 2: in a tank and say, well, actually, I'd like to
Speaker 2: have that one, or a mobster or a crab. It
Speaker 2: was the same principle at work. It's just like an
Speaker 2: effort of incredible demonstration of power that studies were just
Speaker 2: objects powerful families.
Speaker 7: And this carried on for about three hundred years according
Speaker 7: to your book.
Speaker 2: If it did, I'm trying to think of the most
Speaker 2: recent date when it was actually still in force. I
Speaker 2: think it was probably probably about sixteen hundred and seventeen
Speaker 2: hundreds when this is still going on in certain places
Speaker 2: in the world. Maybe not necessarily ancient China, but but
Speaker 2: there was still Actually I don't think it might have
Speaker 2: been it was still ancient China when it was going on.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I haven't got dates to in my mind,
Speaker 2: but I know it was comparatively recently, quite shockingly recently. Really,
Speaker 2: we look back to our history. We're not just talking
Speaker 2: mean before here, No.
Speaker 7: No, it's interesting and incredible. Now we need to before
Speaker 7: we go into an exploration of some of these worst
Speaker 7: the evil psychopaths, as your book reports to have included
Speaker 7: in the book. We need to discuss just a few things. Well,
Speaker 7: I think we need to discuss why this seemingly alien behavior,
Speaker 7: this derange act of eating another human, it's not classified
Speaker 7: as insanity, And maybe then we can maybe we can
Speaker 7: just start with that. We will talk about the psychopathology,
Speaker 7: about the psychopathic killer as well, just to prepare people
Speaker 7: so that we have a basis to understand what we're
Speaker 7: talking about here.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, they arguing about sanity is very interesting because
Speaker 2: of course we would all say, as somebody who does
Speaker 2: something like this especially insane, that Mayoboda's saying human could
Speaker 2: do the sort of things that we witness these people doing. Right,
Speaker 2: But I suppose in a legal sense, what they're looking
Speaker 2: for people who actually are able to plan. They say,
Speaker 2: those sort of two sorts of killers. There's a sort
Speaker 2: of organized and sort of non social killer. They plan,
Speaker 2: they behave in a normal way. They plan the crimes
Speaker 2: in a very detailed way. They don't actually kill anybody
Speaker 2: when they think they might get caught, so they go
Speaker 2: equipped and they make detail plans such as, for instance,
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Darmer when he was going out to gay clubs
Speaker 2: to try and pick up young men to bring home
Speaker 2: to s wanted to drive and kill and eat and
Speaker 2: have sex with. He would prepare his room in advance,
Speaker 2: so he'd move all the furnitures, there's plenty of room,
Speaker 2: and he would set the videos so that he had
Speaker 2: a film to show them while he gave them a
Speaker 2: drink with drugs in. So it was all extremely organized.
Speaker 2: Quite often these sort of criminals might, even when they
Speaker 2: killed somebody, take the body away and hide it, or
Speaker 2: they might even put it somewhere later on so that
Speaker 2: someone will be found. Someone will find it, and then
Speaker 2: they'll follow the case with great excitement because they get
Speaker 2: off on the fact that the police don't know who
Speaker 2: it is and that they do. And then you have
Speaker 2: the disorganized, a social killer who they are more to
Speaker 2: be seen as sort of sendless outsider characters who are
Speaker 2: loan as many most of them, a lot of people
Speaker 2: are loaners who are still organized. It doesn't exactly fall
Speaker 2: into completely black and white counts here, but they murder
Speaker 2: in a more uncontrolled way. They don't have the same method,
Speaker 2: they don't take as much care, they usually get found
Speaker 2: more quickly because they aren't as careful. They're more likely
Speaker 2: to kill somebody and then abandon the body and just
Speaker 2: escape because they haven't actually thought it through, so they
Speaker 2: are considered to be disorganized asocial. I guess that those
Speaker 2: sorts of killers who do act in a framezy without
Speaker 2: preparation are considered an insanity verdict is more like is
Speaker 2: be considered for that.
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Speaker 5: In terms of conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 2: Perhaps than the organized killer, because what they're looking at
Speaker 2: is what legal legally they're looking at, is the crime
Speaker 2: whether the person without of his mind when he committed
Speaker 2: the crime, not really what they did afterwards with the body,
Speaker 2: but basically whether they were insane and in the grip
Speaker 2: of some sort of craized disorganized when when they did it.
Speaker 2: And most of the killers that that we've looked at,
Speaker 2: as I looked at in the book, were not. They
Speaker 2: were very methodical, but that's why they managed to escape
Speaker 2: for so long.
Speaker 5: I suppose the least methodical of all of them.
Speaker 2: Was Richard Chase from Sacramento, who he was known as
Speaker 2: a vampire killer. He bought a gun and he practiced
Speaker 2: and very rarely do sadistic killers use guns, but that
Speaker 2: he wanted blood and he did not take the source
Speaker 2: of care. I suppose that some of the others it
Speaker 2: makes it down and playing taking care it makes it
Speaker 2: something like the positive attributes. Obviously it's not, but that
Speaker 2: he did act in a more praised way. But the
Speaker 2: sanity argument, it does go back to the history where
Speaker 2: where they that is essentially that is essentially did they
Speaker 2: know what they were doing? Did they know the difference
Speaker 2: between right and wrong when they actually committed the crime?
Speaker 7: Right now, you were talking about Jeffrey Dahmer, and he's
Speaker 7: a great case and that's why you likely included it
Speaker 7: in your book, because there is quite a bit to
Speaker 7: discuss and quite a bit to see with his particular case. Now,
Speaker 7: Jeffrey Dahmer is fairly well known, and I remember seeing
Speaker 7: the movie Silence of the Lambs and finding an the
Speaker 7: credible and then a few months later in Milwaukee, Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 7: real life cannibal killer, was arrested, and his crimes were,
Speaker 7: obviously people know, more horrifying than any fictional book or
Speaker 7: movie could ever be. Now, there seems to be a
Speaker 7: fair amount of psychiatric study of Dahmer. Having the cooperation
Speaker 7: from his family and even Dahmer himself helped authorities collect
Speaker 7: valuable information about him, especially in regards to his upbringing
Speaker 7: and its effect on him and as eventual progression to
Speaker 7: serial killer later and he was when we talked about
Speaker 7: organized and disorganized, They do classify him as being mixed,
Speaker 7: and a trial there really was an issue of whether
Speaker 7: he was an insane were at least insane at some point.
Speaker 7: Can you talk a little bit about Dahmer and what
Speaker 7: you found interesting about some of the study that was
Speaker 7: done after the fact, Given that Dahmer was willing to
Speaker 7: talk and not attribute some of his behavior. Well, maybe
Speaker 7: you can tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: I think you have to explain that further.
Speaker 7: Well, the thing is, the thing is with Jeffrey Dahmer
Speaker 7: that his father was interviewed and Jeffrey Dahmer was interviewed,
Speaker 7: and Dahmer was very adamant to say that, and there
Speaker 7: was evidence as well that there was not much of
Speaker 7: the typical attributation, you know, attributation in terms of his background,
Speaker 7: in terms of his eventual progression to serial killer. He
Speaker 7: wouldn't fit a profile.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because of course, the usual thing is to look
Speaker 2: at the background of these statistic killers and you can
Speaker 2: usually find a very troubled childhood and difficulties with parental arguments,
Speaker 2: rouse violence, neglects, And there wasn't really any of that
Speaker 2: really with Darma. He had a very happy childhood really
Speaker 2: in terms of what his family offered us. The family
Speaker 2: were not neglectful family or violent, and he when they
Speaker 2: were searching for possible reasons as to why he turned
Speaker 2: out that he had the sort of reasons that almost
Speaker 2: heavy feeble ones like, oh, well, he was very jealous
Speaker 2: when his younger brother was born when he was six
Speaker 2: perhaps all over the place, and they don't all turning
Speaker 2: to kill us. He was doing things like finding road
Speaker 2: killed victims animals on the road and putting them up
Speaker 2: when he was a very small boy, and one of
Speaker 2: the and he was omitting to being sexually stimulated when
Speaker 2: they were cutting up animals in biology, which again is
Speaker 2: so extreme that nobody would really think that they could
Speaker 2: identify with that and one of the other the other
Speaker 2: psychological requirements. I suppose that people would find to say,
Speaker 2: this will deflect someone from their possible their possible path
Speaker 2: of the murder is that not necessarily a close and
Speaker 2: internal relationship, but a relationship with somebody, the person who
Speaker 2: makes a difference, who could actually save them if you like,
Speaker 2: by having a close relationship. Well, I think Jeffrey Darmer
Speaker 2: was pretty well adored by his grandmother, and his parents
Speaker 2: were not too bad parents, and his brother, of course
Speaker 2: was fine. So there were no there were no real
Speaker 2: there were no real reasons that you could actually put
Speaker 2: your single on other than something in the genetic makeup
Speaker 2: somewhere that some wires the go across somewhere in this child.
Speaker 2: Because there were so many there were so many possible thoughts,
Speaker 2: someone said it was because he was gay, but not
Speaker 2: someone said, one of the psychological reports is he was gay,
Speaker 2: but he really hated his own homosexuality, and so therefore
Speaker 2: he would project that onto his victims, and that's why
Speaker 2: that's why he did this. But I mean, that's also
Speaker 2: wasn't really a case for cannibalism. That might have been
Speaker 2: a reason why he hated his interprets wanted to kill
Speaker 2: other gay people. But when you say full stops, really
Speaker 2: the rest of it. They trying to drill holes in
Speaker 2: their heads from fermamento zombies, you know, removing the flesh
Speaker 2: and saving the skeletons and hanging the skeletons in the
Speaker 2: shower to take photographs of them, and keeping heads and
Speaker 2: fridges and performing sex acts on them. And this was
Speaker 2: also the absolute far reaches of extreme behavior of it
Speaker 2: that nothing could be an exploration. That don't seem to
Speaker 2: be any real explorations as to why he became like
Speaker 2: he was that you could find in other murderers that
Speaker 2: I looked at, at least, what.
Speaker 7: Is surprising to the when you first read about the
Speaker 7: motivation for some of these serial killers and some of
Speaker 7: the outrageous acts that they do the obvious overkill, the mutilation,
Speaker 7: posing of victims, all sorts of characteristics and signature of
Speaker 7: some of these serial killers. Did you find in your
Speaker 7: research that the actual added horror of cannibalism as a
Speaker 7: feature of some of these serial killers, was that also
Speaker 7: involved with the sex act as well? Is it sexual
Speaker 7: to these people?
Speaker 2: Yes, it's the ultimate act of power. Isn't it the
Speaker 2: absorption of that person and continue destruction of that person
Speaker 2: and wanting to make them of themselves and be powerful. That, Uh,
Speaker 2: the statistic stabbing and mutilation and so on, there isn't
Speaker 2: necessarily a sex fact as we would interpret sex acts.
Speaker 5: Attached to that.
Speaker 2: I'm probably repeating things that you already know here, But
Speaker 2: the actual frenzy of stabbing and mutilating is the sort
Speaker 2: of is the sexual gratification, and a killer may have
Speaker 2: an all gather in doing that without actually having what
Speaker 2: we would consider the normal sects. So if you if
Speaker 2: you're looking at at this sort of behavior biting and
Speaker 2: that the biting acts, which of course is very much
Speaker 2: tied up with sexuality in our primitive backgrounds and in
Speaker 2: the psychological literature to do with vampires and vampiristic behavior,
Speaker 2: which you often find in in psych sadistic mental patients,
Speaker 2: you would find that quite commonly. I think they all
Speaker 2: just tied up together. So yes, it would be sexually
Speaker 2: the answer, right, So I rumbled on a bit that
Speaker 2: I didn't no.
Speaker 6: No, you did, no, no no.
Speaker 7: It's now we've talked about Jeffrey Dahmer and you have
Speaker 7: included just we're going to talk about some of the
Speaker 7: main people that you have featured in your book, and
Speaker 7: you can tell us why that you felt it necessary
Speaker 7: to include them and what you learned from their particular
Speaker 7: cases when you drew it back to giving you any insight. Obviously,
Speaker 7: some of these killers Ed Gain as one of the
Speaker 7: killers we're going to be talking about, and Edmund Kemper,
Speaker 7: and they couldn't be coming from completely different backgrounds. More so, so,
Speaker 7: maybe we could start off with ed Gain and briefly
Speaker 7: tell us who Ed Gain is, what he was accused of.
Speaker 7: I think some people do know him, but a lot
Speaker 7: of people don't know that he engaged in cannibalism. They
Speaker 7: know him from other reports that they have some information
Speaker 7: that they've gathered. Tell us about Ed Gain well.
Speaker 2: He is probably most famous because he was the inspiration
Speaker 2: for several films like Psycho and the and in Silence
Speaker 2: of the Lambs. I think the character of Buffalo Bill
Speaker 2: was based on again.
Speaker 5: Because what he well, what he ultimately did, he would
Speaker 5: he would.
Speaker 2: He started off a necrophiliac and would go to graves
Speaker 2: and get their bodies to do what he wanted to do,
Speaker 2: but ultimately ended up in killing women to do it.
Speaker 2: He lived out in the wild in plainfield is Content
Speaker 2: with his mother, who was a very dominating woman.
Speaker 7: And.
Speaker 2: His brother and his mother than his mother both died
Speaker 2: and he was left on his own, very lonely, strange, weird,
Speaker 2: weird looking little man with pale, icy eyes. But he
Speaker 2: was very keen on huntings. But he had this drive,
Speaker 2: but he ultimately ended up digging up bodies and grays,
Speaker 2: and then he would take their skins and their genitals
Speaker 2: and he would fashion them into suits to wear, and
Speaker 2: he would dress as a woman, and he would he
Speaker 2: would hang the bodies up and as if they were
Speaker 2: deer and dismember them, and he would use the skin
Speaker 2: to make chairs and footstools, and also a suit of
Speaker 2: clothes for himself. So the theory was one of the
Speaker 2: theories that he was so totally dominated by his mother,
Speaker 2: but that he was he felt he was like her
Speaker 2: when he when he just like that, because.
Speaker 5: I mean in normal.
Speaker 2: Transvestitism normal actually we're normal on that people would would
Speaker 2: would do it and not really they do it because
Speaker 2: they like to look like a woman and they want
Speaker 2: to be taken with a woman that he had put
Speaker 2: did all this in supercit because he used he used
Speaker 2: parts of bodies, so so there you can't actually say, oh,
Speaker 2: he was a transvestortite. He just wanted to be a woman.
Speaker 2: That there was obviously the greatest sickness there. And he
Speaker 2: was caught when he It was a day out day
Speaker 2: when everybody went out hunting in the town and he
Speaker 2: went to the local village store and and he just
Speaker 2: killed the woman who was there, who was a middle
Speaker 2: aged woman, and took her back home and did all
Speaker 2: the things that he did to all his victims and cannibalized.
Speaker 2: And yes, they found, they found, they found parts of
Speaker 2: the flesh in the house. He'd dissect the bodies and
Speaker 2: he eat the hearts. He keeps the heads and the
Speaker 2: sect organs. But he would also eat the flesh and
Speaker 2: deliver and parts, and then he'd make decorations through bodies
Speaker 2: for his house from all the other body parts. Apparently
Speaker 2: he may have belt out of skin and cut off
Speaker 2: nipples and use the bones to make a table, and
Speaker 2: so yes he did. He is what non psychologist was
Speaker 2: called total. I mean, it's it's sort of it's too
Speaker 2: extreme to even imagine that. You can see why somebody
Speaker 2: liked normal dates in Psycho was based on Dine with
Speaker 2: the obsession with the mother. I don't know whether there
Speaker 2: was any there's any suggestion that I could call him
Speaker 2: Dine and you call him Geen. I'm sorry, I look
Speaker 2: at it as a German name. Well I thought I
Speaker 2: thought you'd synstic dome. But uh, yeah, I don't think
Speaker 2: there's any evidence that he felt he's being given messages
Speaker 2: by his mother to do this right. But that's obviously
Speaker 2: was what Hitchcock took when he made the film of Psycho.
Speaker 2: But that mother bates have been directed by his mother
Speaker 2: and controlled by his mother.
Speaker 7: Now we have just a couple more cases briefly to
Speaker 7: talk about, and then we want to talk about you know,
Speaker 7: one of the most bizarre cases, uh is obviously this
Speaker 7: I see a saga from Japan. Okay, you see a Cigawa. Okay,
Speaker 7: got it, thank you. But let's talk about just briefly
Speaker 7: this and this is one of the most horrible cases,
Speaker 7: is this, Andrea Chickatillo, just briefly tell us about I
Speaker 7: didn't know about this killer at all. And what's interesting
Speaker 7: is that it's just a few months after the world
Speaker 7: here is about Jeffrey Dahmer his Chamber of Horrors. Another
Speaker 7: even more, if there can be someone that ups the
Speaker 7: level of evil, it's this guy. So please tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about this guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, he's Russia's worst serial killer and he's right
Speaker 2: up there in the in the whole world was he?
Speaker 2: I think he claimed to have killed about sixty people,
Speaker 2: but actually the only charge with fifty three murders. He
Speaker 2: was born in a period in Russian history when there
Speaker 2: was great poverty and famine, and he told a story.
Speaker 2: He claimed that he was driven to this.
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Speaker 2: Were necessarily where I lost the terms and conditions eating
Speaker 2: less or. He became like this because when he was
Speaker 2: a child, his mother had told him that he'd had
Speaker 2: an older brother who had one day gone vanished. He
Speaker 2: has gone walking in the forest and they'd vanished because
Speaker 2: he'd been taken away and he'd been eaten. Liking a
Speaker 2: fairy story. So it's like all parents tell their children
Speaker 2: don't go off with strange men because these terrible things
Speaker 2: had happen, and they tell them stories of Hansel and Gretel.
Speaker 2: But in Ticktia's case, he claimed that this is the
Speaker 2: thing that actually started him off because he couldn't stop
Speaker 2: thinking about his little brother who was taken away and eaten.
Speaker 2: There's no evidence. I don't think that this story did
Speaker 2: actually happen. It's just that Chipotila claimed that's what he'd
Speaker 2: been told. And I suppose you could think mother might
Speaker 2: tell some story about what would happen to little boys
Speaker 2: off in the forest. But he was obviously a disturbed child.
Speaker 2: He had He was a very sort of tall and
Speaker 2: gainly sort of boy, and he he had a problem
Speaker 2: with bedwetting to quite an old age, and of course
Speaker 2: he was ridiculed at school because of this, and he
Speaker 2: grew up with intelligence. He was an intelligent person. He
Speaker 2: went to do a degree and became an English teacher,
Speaker 2: and he got married and his wife found that he
Speaker 2: was a very doting husband, except they did have a
Speaker 2: lot of sexual problems because he was impotent. He had
Speaker 2: a problem with impotence, which he'd always had through his
Speaker 2: teenage years, which again helped to make him feel like
Speaker 2: an outsider. But to all intents and purposes, he's married
Speaker 2: with the two children, was happy. But he then at
Speaker 2: one point he started abducting children, and then he abducted
Speaker 2: a little girl and in a friendy he killed her
Speaker 2: and with a knife and richer apart, and enjoyed the
Speaker 2: blood and ets and drank and discovered that this was
Speaker 2: a thing that made him sexually satisfied. So he hadn't
Speaker 2: been sexually satisfied in any other area. So having found that,
Speaker 2: he then went on to kill more and more people
Speaker 2: as a great and grave level, killed more and more
Speaker 2: atrocities on their bodies. When he killed them, he wasn't
Speaker 2: really particularly fussed whether they were a male female adult.
Speaker 2: I suppose the only people he avoided were adult males
Speaker 2: because I suppose they would be able to fight that
Speaker 2: more more readily. But he just escalated his desires because
Speaker 2: of it, all these fantasies that these sort of men have,
Speaker 2: The reality is never as good as the fantasis, so
Speaker 2: they have to keep upping the extremes they go to
Speaker 2: in order to try and achieve the same level of satisfaction,
Speaker 2: which is why the crimes of one person get more
Speaker 2: and more brutal and sodistic, because they.
Speaker 1: Don't.
Speaker 2: They find it not enough to do what they did
Speaker 2: the last time, so they have to make it more extreme.
Speaker 2: And so he committed all these crimes over a long
Speaker 2: long period, and the police had The police were totally
Speaker 2: useless because they they were confused for a start, because
Speaker 2: the victims were dissimilar, and normally if you were looking
Speaker 2: for a serial killer, you would they would normally kill
Speaker 2: within their own sexual preference, and as with Jeffrey Darmer,
Speaker 2: he was gay. He killed with the gay men. In fact,
Speaker 2: with Jeffrey Armor as I can just give at for
Speaker 2: a moment. I think there were another five murders while
Speaker 2: he was in Germany while he was there the army
Speaker 2: that were sadistic and mutilating murders that they thought they
Speaker 2: might have actually been attributable to him, But the fact
Speaker 2: that there were women amongst this, they actually dismissed that
Speaker 2: and said, well no, because he didn't actually kill. But
Speaker 2: people tend to kill within their own sexual area of preference.
Speaker 2: Jeffie didn't do that. He sort of killed everybody like
Speaker 2: pan sexual and he was. He was sexualistimates by all.
Speaker 2: He would even known as the railway a railway kill
Speaker 2: everybody used to ride the railway trains and select victims.
Speaker 2: And he was an extremely personable and agreeable and talkative chap.
Speaker 2: He would go on chap to a woman quite often
Speaker 2: they would be existers or prostitutes, homeless people, but he
Speaker 2: would go on chat to them and he talk to
Speaker 2: them about the weather and about you know, whether they've
Speaker 2: putted any mushrooms in the forest. And people liked him,
Speaker 2: and he would convince him to go with him and
Speaker 2: then he would just sort of leap on and tear
Speaker 2: them apart. But the police eventually, they actually arrested various
Speaker 2: people there for the of the crimes, and but they
Speaker 2: refused to let the press know. They refused to publicize this,
Speaker 2: which would have been their best weapons really. So even
Speaker 2: though in this place called Rostov, they've got sort of
Speaker 2: at the time that thirty people who died, that they
Speaker 2: had no idea, I mean, no nearer detaching the person
Speaker 2: who had done it. They didn't want to release it
Speaker 2: to the press because I suppose partly the Russian fear of,
Speaker 2: you know, fear of things not being secret, and also
Speaker 2: the fear of causing panic. So nobody really knew that
Speaker 2: this is happening. And then eventually they did actually oh oh,
Speaker 2: and then they did actually apprehended at one point and
Speaker 2: they they've got a victim, and they did they've got
Speaker 2: a semen sample from the victim, but they got chicks either,
Speaker 2: and they did a blood test on him and the
Speaker 2: blood type of semen type were different, so they didn't
Speaker 2: pursue that anymore because it was assumed at that time
Speaker 2: in the ninety eighties, but they were always the same.
Speaker 2: But it was completely you know, there wasn't any possibility
Speaker 2: that people could have different blood and Seman types. So
Speaker 2: they left him free and it was only later that
Speaker 2: they act to discovered this can happen. And Chichila himself
Speaker 2: believed that made him unique and different and very special.
Speaker 2: With that that his Wooden Seman type didn't match. Shall
Speaker 2: I say, were you're going to ask me a question? No?
Speaker 7: Sorry? The Chickatillo though. One of the features you were
Speaker 7: talking about, some of the serial killer profile features, and
Speaker 7: one of those is many of these many of these
Speaker 7: serial killers contact authorities or the media, or when they
Speaker 7: are finally caught, they relish the idea of giving all
Speaker 7: the details of their murders. What was it about Chickatillo
Speaker 7: that was unusual compared to some of these other people?
Speaker 7: He was particularly it you would be if if it
Speaker 7: was fust the trial.
Speaker 2: Yes, do you mean when he was actually caught and
Speaker 2: tried well, when he was caught, he denied it at first,
Speaker 2: He denied anything at first, and they but but then
Speaker 2: the psychologist who was talking to him convinced him that
Speaker 2: only somebody who is totally insane, could have done the
Speaker 2: sort of crimes that he refused of, and so sort
Speaker 2: of dangled the possibility that he might actually not be
Speaker 2: executed but might be put in a psychiatric hospital, at
Speaker 2: which point jupt Low admitted everything. He admitted to the
Speaker 2: murders that the police had got details of an evidence of,
Speaker 2: and gave them, you know, facts that nobody else could know.
Speaker 2: He then admitted to another twenty murders and then took
Speaker 2: the police to places where bodies were buried. And then
Speaker 2: when he was in court, he then decided to pretend well,
Speaker 2: pretend to be insane. So he started behaving like a
Speaker 2: complete madman, rattling the bars because he was put in
Speaker 2: a cage not so much to protect him and protect
Speaker 2: everybody else, but to protect him from the crowd, because
Speaker 2: the scenes at the court were just full of Vixim's
Speaker 2: relatives who were screaming for his blood and demanding that
Speaker 2: he should be given to them. And so he would
Speaker 2: take his trousers off and display himself to everybody who'd
Speaker 2: say that he had breasts, and he was going to
Speaker 2: give milk to people. But it is going to set
Speaker 2: up that it's been a communist plot, and he just
Speaker 2: played mad because I think he realized at that point
Speaker 2: that he might not actually escape being executed after all.
Speaker 2: And you do get But of course when he went
Speaker 2: back to his sally, he was perfectly normal and fine.
Speaker 2: They had to protect him in prison, by the way,
Speaker 2: because the relative, a relative of one of the victims,
Speaker 2: was a warder, a warden at at the prison, so
Speaker 2: he had to be under special protection there as well,
Speaker 2: because people were so anxious to kill him.
Speaker 7: Is he still alive today, No, he was.
Speaker 2: He was executed in nineteen ninety four, nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 2: But there's sort of things he said, you know, when
Speaker 2: he admitted it, he then started claiming that he was
Speaker 2: a special person, that he was a special on this
Speaker 2: blood and human think. He claimed he was special. He
Speaker 2: claimed that the people he was killing that he was
Speaker 2: doing the public service because they were just ruthless elements.
Speaker 2: He called them drifters who he was cleaning up the streets,
Speaker 2: which actually, coincidentally is what a British killer, the Yorkshire
Speaker 2: Ripper claimed when he in the nineteen seventies, that would
Speaker 2: be the late seventies, when he was killing winning in Leeds, Yorkshire,
Speaker 2: and they were all prostitutes, and so he was saying
Speaker 2: that he'd been told to do this by God, to
Speaker 2: clean up the streets. Well, Chickstilo said the same sort
Speaker 2: of thing. Really, he was. The thing that's so amazing
Speaker 2: about Chikatilo is with his wife. Actually, this is very
Speaker 2: similar to the Ortu Ripper case as well. His wife
Speaker 2: was amazed because she thought that he couldn't even kill
Speaker 2: one person, never mind fifty odd, because he was such
Speaker 2: a kind and caring, loving husband and father. And that's
Speaker 2: even more conciderna that these people can lead a normal life.
Speaker 2: And then it is very much a gentle and hide situation.
Speaker 2: And if as if they have got something inside them,
Speaker 2: but it's just released and they turned into a monster.
Speaker 7: Well to explain that, certainly, that's what we talk about
Speaker 7: antisocial behavior, which was formally referred to as psychopathic behavior,
Speaker 7: the psychopathic killer. And when people say, well they're not insane,
Speaker 7: well then there has to be some categorization. And I
Speaker 7: think antisocial behavior sounds a little nicer or a little
Speaker 7: more normal.
Speaker 2: Then well they stop calling people psychopaths, didn't they It's
Speaker 2: acually calling them sociopaths, as if that sort of makes
Speaker 2: it better.
Speaker 7: I don't know whether it is a what sounds more harmless.
Speaker 2: I suppose what it is is that that originally people
Speaker 2: would be declared psychopathic, and it would be usually people
Speaker 2: who'd committed crimes. But I think what's been discovered in
Speaker 2: the last twenty or thirty years or though, is that
Speaker 2: we could all appear on a psychopathic scale. If you
Speaker 2: imagine a continuum, then we could put all of us
Speaker 2: on there somewhere being psychopathic to some degree or another,
Speaker 2: or sociopathic to some degree or another. And not all
Speaker 2: people who are psychopaths are or sociopaths are killers. They
Speaker 2: just and a lot of people who the psychopaths or
Speaker 2: sociopaths are very very successful at what they do and
Speaker 2: are big business, and the sort of qualities that the
Speaker 2: psychopaths would have, they would be extremely charming, very very good.
Speaker 2: People wipe them. They're totally ruthless, and they regard everybody
Speaker 2: else as being there to serve their own purpose because
Speaker 2: they're so whomely either century there's no sense of feels
Speaker 2: or shame or no conscience. So those sort of skills,
Speaker 2: particularly if they are able to charm people when people
Speaker 2: wipe them, are very useful in business, and so you
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have to kill people to do this. And
Speaker 2: presumably the aspects of desiring.
Speaker 5: To slaughter is in conjunction with being a psychopath rather
Speaker 5: than just being a psychopaths on its.
Speaker 2: Own, so you have another element working there. But I
Speaker 2: think probably psychopathy is very much at the heart of
Speaker 2: all the killers that we're talking about, because one couldn't
Speaker 2: do these sorts of things without feeling or remose.
Speaker 7: The only thing is yes, sorry. What I thought though,
Speaker 7: was that, And you know, I understand exactly what you're saying,
Speaker 7: and I've read all the stuff from Robert Hare and
Speaker 7: the check Lee psychopath checklist. The thing is, though, is
Speaker 7: that shouldn't there be some distinction between a psychopathic killer
Speaker 7: and a psychopath? Otherwise some of the characteristics of the
Speaker 7: psychopath are more inclusive. A lot of people are self centered,
Speaker 7: a lot of people exhibit no conscience. If you're asking
Speaker 7: me if they exhibit no conscience, but obviously they justify.
Speaker 7: There's a lot of business practices that could be termed psychopathic.
Speaker 7: So shouldn't there be a real distinction and not such
Speaker 7: a nice and fuzzy word like social path to distinguish these,
Speaker 7: you know, these people.
Speaker 2: Well, I suppose that's what I meant about the continue
Speaker 2: I have a seventeen year old son, and I think
Speaker 2: seventeen year old probably also is psychopathic in the endocentric
Speaker 2: that's right, But he doesn't speak kill animals or anything
Speaker 2: like that. But I think it's to say that boys
Speaker 2: of our sage goes through where everybody's nearly there to
Speaker 2: serve their needs. So, yes, that's true. What you're saying
Speaker 2: is quite true. And like, and I think they have
Speaker 2: actually identified areas of the brain metal where they can
Speaker 2: judge people to have these strong psychopathic elements with the
Speaker 2: what's it called when they do that imaging where they
Speaker 2: can actually show various areas in the brain that that
Speaker 2: they can say this person's to a greater degree psychopathic.
Speaker 2: But but yeah, I suppose what I'm trying to say
Speaker 2: is that if you have somebody who is psychopathic but
Speaker 2: has no other sexual drive two to torture or kill
Speaker 2: or or even dominate another another person sexually, well that's
Speaker 2: another element that has to be added into into this.
Speaker 2: I don't think you can just say, oh, well that's
Speaker 2: because he did this because he's a psychopath. I think
Speaker 2: you could say, well, he is a psychopath, but that's
Speaker 2: not the reason who did it, because they are.
Speaker 5: Of a psychopaths who don't do that.
Speaker 2: That's sorry, am I'm making myself. I'm really just sort
Speaker 2: of saying what I what I believe. I'm sure there
Speaker 2: will be far more qualified psychiatrists out there who would
Speaker 2: be able to correct in areas where I'm not correct.
Speaker 5: But I think I think psychopathy is I think.
Speaker 2: You would have to be. Well, it's rather like the
Speaker 2: studies of statistic killers who are in prison. They can say,
Speaker 2: you can say that all the stadistic killers are in
Speaker 2: prisoned as a figure like sixty percent of them have
Speaker 2: been abused in childhood, so therefore that but that actually
Speaker 2: means that another forty percent of them haven't. That's right,
Speaker 2: So you can't you know, there are all these correlations
Speaker 2: that you can make, but they're not necessarily causes because
Speaker 2: you can find substantial exceptions. And in a way, that's
Speaker 2: rather like, you know, yes, all these these killers will
Speaker 2: be psychopaths, undoubtedly, but that doesn't mean that everyone's a
Speaker 2: psychopath is going to be a killer.
Speaker 7: Yes, let's we don't have that much time, so let's
Speaker 7: I want to include this in because this is one
Speaker 7: of the most fascinating portions of your book and a
Speaker 7: story that I had never heard of at all before
Speaker 7: war anywhere. So in the book you discussed the cases
Speaker 7: truly the most bizarre for the reaction of the country
Speaker 7: in which this cannibal killer lived and killed. You state
Speaker 7: that the Japanese, more than most nationalities, have always shown
Speaker 7: an appetite for the bizarre, especially if there's a macabre
Speaker 7: element of suffering or pain that spiced up the entertainment value.
Speaker 7: And you also say that Yu Kuyo Mishima Mishima, a
Speaker 7: homosexual homosexual status who was stimulated by the side of blood,
Speaker 7: became the most successful Japanese writer of all time, and
Speaker 7: what he wrote about Japanese society seemingly embraced and also
Speaker 7: greatly influenced a Japanese man, which is featured in your book.
Speaker 7: Name Again, you can correct me on the pronunciation. I
Speaker 7: see Awa, I wouldn't, I wouldn't slatt.
Speaker 2: I've always I always.
Speaker 7: Okay, there we go, We've got that right. That's probably right. Okay,
Speaker 7: Now what did write about and and how did it
Speaker 7: influence Sagawa? And and what did Sagawa go on to do?
Speaker 2: Well? I can't really say.
Speaker 5: You all.
Speaker 2: Mischiva wrote about that he was he was quite a
Speaker 2: famous Japanese writer and he and he did right, hm, Well,
Speaker 2: I think he was very interesting in the whole Harry
Speaker 2: Kerry aspect of Japanese literature that there's a lot of
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'll go say violence, that's unfair, but
Speaker 2: but I don't know whether you get some of the
Speaker 2: Japanese programs in America which I've I've mentioned I be
Speaker 2: in the in my book. There was a series now
Speaker 2: I can't even remember what it was called Nowhere where
Speaker 2: people would a bit like the I'm a celebrity, get
Speaker 2: me out of here that we have in England now
Speaker 2: where people go to the jungle and are made to
Speaker 2: eat horrid things like that. Okay, it was it was
Speaker 2: very long a game show where people would go and
Speaker 2: be humiliated and have to do things that were really painful.
Speaker 3: And terrible, and everybody in Japan TOOTLEGI one and there's
Speaker 3: quite a lot of I think, I don't know, I
Speaker 3: thought about the whole Japanese people, but I think the
Speaker 3: reaction to Cigar was murder and the way that TV
Speaker 3: and media have.
Speaker 2: Reacted to it. I think there's a a sort of
Speaker 2: a flattening maybe of response to these things, and maybe
Speaker 2: appears because of the Japanese traditions of nobility and bravery
Speaker 2: that were attached to the forgot in the world that
Speaker 2: they you know, the swords then what the swords number
Speaker 2: of the film of the same name with Tom cruising
Speaker 2: it Samurai? Thank you, sorry Samurai and all the traditions
Speaker 2: that are associated and mission met was he killed himself
Speaker 2: by ripping out his own stomach, and he's fantasized about
Speaker 2: that and written about with in his literature. But I
Speaker 2: haven't read any of the literature. I have to say.
Speaker 2: I just know that because I read it myself. So
Speaker 2: whether that was an influence of I don't know. But
Speaker 2: was obviously here a strange little individual.
Speaker 7: Now he now what he did was was accepted. Why
Speaker 7: I mentioned the poet because it seems odd that you
Speaker 7: do talk about the Japanese being this nationality unlike others
Speaker 7: that has this pensiont penticcts for for the bizarre. Now,
Speaker 7: the thing is is that this poet is a celebrated
Speaker 7: poet despite the nature of his poetry and the subject matter.
Speaker 7: And and then this Sagawa becomes despite his crime of
Speaker 7: murder and cannibalism becomes Also there was also an aspect
Speaker 7: of his father being rich, and you say that's part
Speaker 7: of the outrage of this as well, that he had
Speaker 7: preferential treatment. But still, bottom line, the society accepted him
Speaker 7: and his murder and cannibalism and elevated it to a
Speaker 7: point that did he was entitled to do this because
Speaker 7: he was an artist and he was entitled to this
Speaker 7: special experience.
Speaker 2: It was an autistic cat. Yes, yes, he has shown
Speaker 2: he was a very small man. He's shown me an
Speaker 2: inclination to attacking. He was kind of a thing about
Speaker 2: large Western women. And he had done an attack on
Speaker 2: a nade attack on a woman when he was younger,
Speaker 2: in his twenties, and she had fought him off, but
Speaker 2: he'd been prosecuted and his father had of aged. I
Speaker 2: hadn't sent to Paris to try and gusue out of
Speaker 2: this phase. And when he was at Paris, he met
Speaker 2: a Dutch woman who was also studying studying at the university.
Speaker 2: He's a very cover a man and he'd befriended and
Speaker 2: then he proposed that he should just sleep with her
Speaker 2: one night, which came out to his house and she
Speaker 2: said no, and so he killed her. He shot her
Speaker 2: in the head and then dismembered her and kept the
Speaker 2: parts of the body. But it was all. It was
Speaker 2: very He was apprehended very quickly because he had no
Speaker 2: way of disposing of her body as where he put
Speaker 2: it up and tried to dump it, put in a
Speaker 2: suitcase and tried to dump it in the Bois de
Speaker 2: Boulogne in the lake, but he was seen, so he
Speaker 2: ran away and he was caught very very quickly. But
Speaker 2: what happened was that he was actually declared to be
Speaker 2: insane and he was sent to a psychiatric hospital in Paris.
Speaker 2: But his father intervened, and his father was a very
Speaker 2: powerful businessman, and he intervened and arranged to have him
Speaker 2: transferred to a psychiatric hospital in Tokyo. In Tokyo, and
Speaker 2: so he was transferred and he was only in there
Speaker 2: a few months before they again, I suppose with the
Speaker 2: father's intervention, he was released from there. So I think
Speaker 2: he was only actually incarcerated for two years after this
Speaker 2: this horrific, tremendous murder. So yeah, and then when he
Speaker 2: was set three, he then became joining the time in
Speaker 2: the hospital, he wrote about his experience, and this went
Speaker 2: back to Japan and people started declaring that he was
Speaker 2: he was a very rare artist, that he actually lived
Speaker 2: with a celebrity. And once he came out, he went
Speaker 2: on television and he was presented as being something extremely unusual,
Speaker 2: who'd done something astonishing. He'd actually on his artistic impulses
Speaker 2: because he said he wanted to absorb this woman and
Speaker 2: it was the purest form of love and that and
Speaker 2: that he would. He would. Even though he now says
Speaker 2: he's cured and he's not accountable anymore, he still says
Speaker 2: that he would. He would still like to actually eat
Speaker 2: somebody else who agreed to it, or beaten himself by
Speaker 2: some beautiful Western woman.
Speaker 5: And the thing that's so disturbing is.
Speaker 2: That we look at this, we're growing horror and with
Speaker 2: our mouths dropping over in amazement. And yet, of course,
Speaker 2: only a couple of years ago, and in Germany we
Speaker 2: had the case of the German, the German chap who
Speaker 2: wanted to calibalize somebody and advertised on the internet. Do
Speaker 2: you remember that case?
Speaker 7: Yes, And he found someone, and he found someone and
Speaker 7: they mutually agreed because besides.
Speaker 2: His body and they they agreed to be killed. He
Speaker 2: even wrote an a piece of paper absolving in from
Speaker 2: any any guilt, and so you do think, well, the
Speaker 2: Internet is obviously opened near doors the people of the
Speaker 2: most extreme decavity. And and he gave a problem to
Speaker 2: Germany to try this. This guy he was called I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know to pronounced my way, I'm
Speaker 2: in my ways. And they didn't really because they could
Speaker 2: be charged with murder when actually personally agreed to be murdered. Yes,
Speaker 2: it was an extraordinary case. And so when you when
Speaker 2: gals might have a dream to be eaten myself, you think, well, actually,
Speaker 2: presumably some people who do, because this is the case.
Speaker 2: But yes, it's extraordinary because he's still a celebrities, is
Speaker 2: what he writes about it. He even did an eating
Speaker 2: out column for a magazine, one to burn my page
Speaker 2: in a magazine.
Speaker 7: And barbecue recipes.
Speaker 6: Unbelievable, that's right, barbecue recipes.
Speaker 2: It's just I just find it so mutable that this
Speaker 2: would happen. But I suppose also the other thing is
Speaker 2: that I also thought it's very concerning that the advent
Speaker 2: of the Internet has meant that the sort of people
Speaker 2: who would once have helped them else to be outsiders
Speaker 2: and they would mirse their interests guiltfully to themselves. They
Speaker 2: now sign out there other people like that out there
Speaker 2: and in a way that makes them feel normal. That's
Speaker 2: my biggest concern about the Internet.
Speaker 7: Well, the thing is too before the advent of the Internet,
Speaker 7: of the popular of the Internet, there was serial killers
Speaker 7: that met up with other serial killers of the same mindset,
Speaker 7: and then United Forces. So I hate to see the
Speaker 7: new development given another twenty years. But we only have
Speaker 7: a few minutes left more, and I would like to
Speaker 7: talk about a completely opposite thing, a completely different subject
Speaker 7: that you've been involved with for quite a while. You
Speaker 7: can tell us a little bit more about this French
Speaker 7: party house experience sounds very interesting, yes, and you also yes,
Speaker 7: and also your company has been the services that you
Speaker 7: provide have been included in the top one hundred, one
Speaker 7: hundred vacations to Enrich your Life, and so tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about French house party please, oh.
Speaker 2: Right, thank you. Yes, the one hundred best worldwide vacations
Speaker 2: to enrich your life. We're in by cam Graud. It's
Speaker 2: a book that's connected with the National Group of Geographic Yes,
Speaker 2: we do short break holidays in a house, beautiful house
Speaker 2: in France. It's got eight bedrooms and swimming pool and
Speaker 2: tennis court. We do all inclusive holidays. We do creative writing.
Speaker 2: We have been Freedom and Coming to do a songwriting
Speaker 2: seminar forwards in the summer. And we do books and
Speaker 2: art and digital movie making. And we've also launched our
Speaker 2: Gastro Acabiny this year for various options for food and
Speaker 2: wine with some top chefs from the area who run
Speaker 2: very top restaurants in Carcasson. It's neck Carcasson in the
Speaker 2: south of France. So yes, it's rather different. It's a
Speaker 2: lot lighter than what we've been talking.
Speaker 7: About, certainly, certainly. Now, this book, Cannibal Killers came out
Speaker 7: in ninety three, really it was I correct with that.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's great edition. It has been published in lots
Speaker 2: of different countries including Japan and my dad and I
Speaker 2: think it's fourth forth edition in America. We're just just
Speaker 2: a new new versions in publishing England in paperback with
Speaker 2: my original publishers, and then I think it's reasually available
Speaker 2: in the States. It's yes, it's it's continued successfully. Yes,
Speaker 2: and I do have been I've also been told that
Speaker 2: it does appear on a lot of criminology degree lists,
Speaker 2: so that's quite a debus honor.
Speaker 7: Yes, well, it's definitely, it's definitely would be used as
Speaker 7: a resource because I know that it's it's written from
Speaker 7: a perspective that you don't see, and it's laid out
Speaker 7: very very carefully, yet very very ny. It's a compelling book. Now, now,
Speaker 7: for those that are interested in your French house party experience,
Speaker 7: maybe you can give us the website for your company.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Yes, it would be www dot French
Speaker 2: house Party dot co dot UK. Sounds great, a French
Speaker 2: house party. The way it's written with means two h's
Speaker 2: right in the middle. You should come out.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it sounds good, it sounds great. I get away
Speaker 7: from all this. I've been involved in some stuff myself
Speaker 7: in the last little while. And yeah, you need something too,
Speaker 7: you need something as a break. Definitely from that. I
Speaker 7: want to thank you. I want to thank you very
Speaker 7: much Mora for a very very entertaining and informative program
Speaker 7: for our audience. You've been listening to Maura Martin Gale.
Speaker 7: Her book is called Cannibal Killers. It's an incredible book.
Speaker 7: You can find it everywhere Saint Art's Press. I want
Speaker 7: to thank you Mara, and have yourself a very good
Speaker 7: evening and thank you very much once again.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 7: Thank you, thank you. Have a good day.
Speaker 2: Bye bye, thank you bye.
Speaker 7: Even listening to a program True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Good day. H