WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680 Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gamiferson. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.000 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.439 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. 5 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.480 Five name two All rif folks, Welcome back to the podcast. 6 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:23.640 Very excited to have us. My guest today, Doctor Eric Walterstorff, Eric, welcome, 7 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:26.559 Thank you very much, good to be here. Guy all right. 8 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.679 Doctor Walterstorff is a psychotherapist and developer of the Trauma 9 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:35.679 Integration Protocol, with more than three decades of experience studying trauma, recovery, 10 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.560 memory systems, and group responsor threat He began training with 11 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:42.240 Peter Levine in nineteen ninety three and it's also studied 12 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:46.560 with Pat Ogden, Max Schupack, and Arnold Mindell. Later earning 13 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:51.280 a doctorate focused on group traumatology. Eric created the Foundations 14 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:55.880 and Transference Tip trainings and specializes in cultural psychosocial development, 15 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:59.880 group trauma, and the collaborative capacity of societies responding to 16 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.359 long term threats. He's a founder and leader of seventeen 17 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.400 first working internationally across Europe, Asia, in the Middle East 18 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:11.239 and Africa. Eric, welcome, before we get going show with 19 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:15.680 the listeners, where you're from originally and where you are currently? Oh? 20 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:20.319 Well, I grew up in El Paso, Texas. Yeah, and 21 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:22.599 I'm and now I'm living in Boulder, Colorado. 22 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:29.079 All right, all right, so let's start. How does all 23 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.280 this start for you? Take us back? 24 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:36.840 Okay, Well, I was at a midlife crisis or early 25 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:39.439 or whatever. I had one of those crises. 26 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:41.040 In my thirties crisis, that's right. 27 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:44.200 And I'm doing a lot of personal growth. I'm studying 28 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:48.760 ralfing and my my rolfing teacher for that particular training 29 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:54.000 was Peter Melchior the Guild for Structural Integration. And Peter says, 30 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:58.120 I think that you should meet with Peter Levine, And 31 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:02.280 I was like, yes, sir, so I went off. I 32 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:05.920 had I knew nothing, no background in psychology, no background 33 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:09.919 in psychotherapy, no thought of it, no ambition for it. 34 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:11.599 What were you doing for work at this time? 35 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:16.759 I had been I had a liberal arts degree and 36 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.840 I was teaching music, composing music, writing music. And then 37 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:24.479 I said I need a change in my life. And 38 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:29.639 I was getting rolfed at the time, and Wayne, my 39 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:32.039 rolfer at the time, said and I said, what should 40 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.520 I do? I said, in my ralfer lying on the table, 41 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:36.400 and he said, let me see your hand, and he 42 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:38.240 picks up my hand and he said, I think you'd 43 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:41.039 be a good ralfer. And I was just so lost 44 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:43.360 at this turning point in my life, I said, well, 45 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.759 that sounds good. So then I started to train to 46 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:50.960 be accepted into the ralfing school. And so I'm living 47 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.919 on savings at this point, and so I'm training as 48 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.599 a rolfer. And that's when my teacher, Peter Melechure suggests 49 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:58.840 that I see Peter Leving. 50 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.439 Wow, so you go see Peter Levine. What happens? 51 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:07.840 Oh, it's so much fun. So I my first session. 52 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:11.159 I love telling the story. My first session with Peter's 53 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.000 I just get access to things that I wasn't aware 54 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:19.680 of in my psyche and it's amazing to me. And 55 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:22.560 I'm like, wow, our doors opened into a new world. 56 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:25.599 And so at the end of the session, I say, wait. 57 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:27.560 Wait, ever, you're going to do this detail? I need 58 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.680 decent what what happens? What is what is he doing? 59 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.400 Well, I mean it was very you know Peter's you 60 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:39.120 know specialty. He works with many more things. But his 61 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:44.080 specialty is, you know, single event shock traumas and and 62 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:51.560 and specifically how to access uh dissociative traumatic states that 63 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.199 tend not to present, right, So his his beauty's and 64 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.400 finding what's not there and then creating the conditions so 65 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.919 these little tiny nibbles grow up into and kind of 66 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:06.800 emerge from the psyche. So he was doing that with me, 67 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:08.599 and I ended up having so many sessions with him, 68 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:11.000 I can't pull it apart. In this session, but he 69 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.039 had me do something as simple as, ah, do you 70 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:17.079 feel that movement in your neck? Yes, well, before it happens, 71 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.680 why don't you just sort of pay attention to what 72 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.720 happens before it moves and see if you could just 73 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:29.800 not move it? And then I and then who And 74 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:38.120 then I've flooded with anxiety. A branch cracked outside and 75 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.279 I thought it was a gunshot. It was in such 76 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:46.480 an altered state, and so anyways, it was it was 77 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:48.360 you know, it was. It was a It was a nice, 78 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:54.160 juicy somatic experiencing session from the master of the masters 79 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:54.399 of that. 80 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:56.879 Right, So you worked for him. 81 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:02.279 For well, you're right, I was hooked. So so he became 82 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.519 my therapist and my teacher and my supervisor for the 83 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:06.639 next three years. 84 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:07.360 Wow. 85 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.000 And that sort of led me also into the studying 86 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.759 Hakomi body work with Pat Ogden Wright me, which is 87 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:20.199 sensorimotor psychotherapy now. And then I got more interested in 88 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:25.240 group dynamics and transference and that took me to Arnie 89 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:28.639 Mendeleen mock Schutbox World Work. Arnie was the developer of 90 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:33.480 process Work. We lost Arnie last year and then that 91 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.439 I got more and more excited about these group dynamics 92 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:41.079 but in cultures, and that led me to going to 93 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.360 my getting my PhD. And one of the people I 94 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.720 committee was Jim Griggsby at Works of Memory Systems and 95 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.680 I'm working with group transference and how things are transferred 96 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:54.839 across generations mass traumas. But the key with that that 97 00:05:54.920 --> 00:06:01.160 affected psychotherapy was just transference, transference, transference and how when 98 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.839 we're we can be triggered in fifty different ways and 99 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:07.000 according to the trigger, our mind just pulls up a 100 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.680 set of screens from the past and that's how we 101 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:11.000 began to interpret the present. 102 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:17.199 Okay, I want to get there, but just taking a 103 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:21.800 step back when when you were working with uh Peter 104 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:26.000 in those different kind of capacities. At what point did 105 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:29.839 you say and how did this come about that you said, 106 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.519 this is what I want to do, this is what 107 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:34.839 I want to study. 108 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:40.000 Well, to go back to my little little story there 109 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:41.839 the first time, at the end of the session, I'm 110 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:43.639 sitting there with Peter. He offers me a glass of 111 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.959 water and he says, do you have any questions? And 112 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:51.399 I said, this is this is this is amazing. How 113 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.600 does this work? And he opens his mouth to answer, 114 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:59.079 and I said, don't stop. I'm afraid it's magic. And 115 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:02.680 if you tell me, it won't happened again. And he 116 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:07.040 laughed and he said it's repeatable, it's not a problem. 117 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:10.120 And so I just wanted to learn more. And so 118 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:14.439 then I became one of sixteen people in the last 119 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.720 thirty years to read his dissertation. And I guess the 120 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.639 last fifty years now it's a bit of a slog 121 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.839 And yeah, I went to classes with him, did trade 122 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.800 scot sessions from him from people he had trained, became 123 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:30.439 you know, a real protege. 124 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:37.480 What talk to us a little about I mean, I'm 125 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:42.720 assuming there was some rough patches with your personal exploration. 126 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:44.800 It's things unfolded for. 127 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:53.120 You yeah, I mean I came in with h with it. 128 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:56.639 I came into the field with a lot of interest 129 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:06.120 and excitement, and yeah, sure when I when I, when 130 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.759 I impact my history more and more, I had it's 131 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:12.439 kind of boring, but I a lot of high speed accidents, 132 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.079 had a tonsilectomy when I was early when I when 133 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:21.560 I was six, and my mind had kind of created 134 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:24.160 a trauma structure around that. I was a bit in 135 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:26.759 the oldest child, a bit in the caretaker role, so 136 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:30.759 I would take that anxiety plus kind of compulsions to help, 137 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:33.320 and that created kind of a particular mix for me. 138 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:38.200 And when I began to realize it's it's funny because 139 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:43.080 this is this is the main kind of theme of 140 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:47.080 this UH transference counterference counter transference training, that this this 141 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:51.639 our next one starts in October. My daughter was just 142 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.200 a year old at the time, and I'm beginning to 143 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:59.639 realize all of these kind of compulsions inside myself and 144 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:01.960 then and what I thought was, I want to see 145 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.919 if I can open faster than I shut my daughter down. 146 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:10.399 And I was such a caretaker that I couldn't say, oh, 147 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:13.600 I need this right. I was like, m but I'll 148 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.360 do this work for my daughter, and I was two 149 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.720 or three years into the work before enough of those 150 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:24.360 compensations kind of opened up and I was like, wow, 151 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.200 I can really use some help for me. But the 152 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:31.440 whole time, I knew that my compulsions were affecting all 153 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:36.720 of my relationships and that really troubled me. So that's 154 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:42.399 probably my entrance into the idea of countertransference, that yes, 155 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.720 my clients are going to come in with their transferences, 156 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:49.720 but whatever I bring, I'm affecting every single session with 157 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:53.559 with every client, and I have more power in the relationship. 158 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.360 So arguably the best way I could help my clients 159 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:00.320 is by working on what drives my countertrends diference. 160 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:04.879 Okay, so I was going to ask what was the 161 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:11.240 impetus for this interest in transference and remind our audience 162 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:14.399 what transference is, what is counter transference? 163 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:22.080 So so transference, projection, projective identification, there's a whole class 164 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:26.519 of terms that are that are related to this single phenomenon, 165 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:30.399 which is that you know, we we don't actually see 166 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:32.440 the person in front of us, we don't see the 167 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:35.679 situation in front of us. There's there's too much data 168 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.639 our brain couldn't process it. What we do is we 169 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:41.360 take some cues and we bring up an approximation from 170 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.480 our past, and then we say, this is my best guess, 171 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:49.279 and so we take a guess. I say something, or 172 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.600 I stand in a way, or I do something based 173 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:55.279 on my best guess, and then I see how you 174 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:59.120 or the environment responds, and then I adjust my thinking 175 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:03.159 and adjusting just and gradually we move toward rapport and we 176 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:09.200 get to know each other as individuals over time. But 177 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:12.279 it begins with with you know, I see you initially, 178 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:14.639 and I see your glasses, and I think, oh, who 179 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:17.440 are the people in my life? And then and then 180 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:22.159 I guess kind of at their personality, at their at 181 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:25.200 their vibe, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to interact 182 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.960 with guys if he has that personality and vibe. 183 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:28.600 I don't. 184 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:31.080 I don't know enough about you to know that, but 185 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.320 I run with that as a first guess. So that's 186 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:37.000 my projection. And we're doing it in little ways like 187 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.320 this all the time, and it's just how we That's 188 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.480 how we first meet people as we get to know them, 189 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:45.679 it's it's normal. But when we've had a lot of 190 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:50.000 trauma or we've had sort of a mismatched childhood that 191 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.240 doesn't match where we are. Maybe we're from a different culture, 192 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:56.799 maybe we've had a lot of trauma, or maybe the 193 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:59.919 life circumstances have changed and we've moved from one place 194 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.559 to another. There could be any number of reasons, but 195 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:07.159 our projections don't match. And of course in the case 196 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.960 of long term relational traumas where we get the greatest 197 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.799 distortions around that. And then I start to look at 198 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:15.840 you and then are you a person who's safe or 199 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.639 a person who's dangerous? Or can I even tell the difference? 200 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:25.000 And then relating becomes very complicated. Trust becomes complicated, boundaries 201 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:29.720 become difficult, and relationship becomes much more of a struggle 202 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.639 rather than something that we can relax into and take 203 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:36.679 pleasure into and explore the world. 204 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:42.519 So your interest, is it fair to say, is the 205 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:48.240 interaction between the transference and counter transference and what happens 206 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:53.559 because of that? Now, what you described is a what 207 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:57.559 a template paradigm? Is it safe to say that different 208 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:06.399 people from different experiences, maybe with uh different levels of 209 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:14.039 vulnerability and authenticity, experiences differently or operate differently. Oh? In 210 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:18.320 other words, yeah. 211 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:21.879 Oh yes, oh yes, very much. Very much. So I'm 212 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.600 thinking of your in your introduction when you say who 213 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:29.080 we are is more important than what we know? Well, 214 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:31.320 I think we need both. I think we need good 215 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.879 tools in the field is growing and we're gaining tools. 216 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:37.360 But I couldn't agree more that it's a prime importance 217 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:43.320 when working with relationship and transference and counter transference. Who 218 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:45.360 we are. And that's kind of what I mean by 219 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.679 the term permission space. What what do we allow in 220 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:53.440 an interaction? What subjects are off limits? Which ones will 221 00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:56.039 I just kind of ignore, steer you away from? Which 222 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:59.039 ones do I want to draw you into? Which ones 223 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.799 do I add in intensity or some emotional tone too? 224 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:06.639 So I'm completely shaping you all the time, and you're 225 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:10.440 shaping me the whole time. And to go back to 226 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:12.879 your thing. When the client doesn't we call it transference 227 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.080 from the therapist, doesn't, we call it counter transference. 228 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:15.600 That's it. 229 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:16.240 It's the same thing. 230 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:20.679 So you were talk to us about this. This What 231 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:23.279 is the course of training. What's it called? 232 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:27.440 Yeah, Yeah, it's called tip transference training. We start with 233 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:31.799 five days in person and then there's five months where 234 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.679 we have two hour meetings every couple of weeks. By 235 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:39.759 zoom to support people and doing trades and getting you know, 236 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:45.080 case menality, consultation and practice with each other over the 237 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:49.120 next half year. And really in the training, there's three 238 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:52.320 things we do in the training. We've got some really 239 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.080 I think they're really fun exercises that can reveal to 240 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:59.720 us our counter transference. And so we do these exercises 241 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:03.080 where we're working with somebody, But then we say, what 242 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.519 if this thing comes up, and then we notice how 243 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:09.240 the therapist is triggered and we could be they could 244 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.519 be triggered by relational dynamics, by a particular theme or subject, 245 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.559 by a person's kind of attachment style, whatever it is, 246 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.039 and we notice, how do we react to that. Do 247 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:24.600 we have space where we're calm and we can flow 248 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:27.519 with that, Or if you start acting one way, do 249 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.879 I automatically start acting another way? That's coming from my 250 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.639 unconscious and I don't even know it, and we're always 251 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:36.360 doing that. It's not like we're going to get rid 252 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:39.320 of it. But if we learn the boundaries of our 253 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:44.120 permission space, then we sort of know what the what 254 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:46.799 the boundaries of competence are for our unconscious. 255 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:54.960 We yeah, say say that again, yeah soon space again okay. 256 00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:01.799 So permission space is when we're interacting what subjects, what 257 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:06.559 things can be explored, What emotions, what movements, what what 258 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:09.600 can happen in our relationship as we're working together. 259 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:13.720 So talking from the therapist's perspective. 260 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:18.600 Yes, okay, So so okay, let's let's let's pretend I'm 261 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:20.720 the therapist and you're the client, and you've got six 262 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:22.720 things you would like to kind of work on, and 263 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:25.600 they're connected to other things. You've got senses of other things, 264 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.000 and you start to bring those subjects up, and you'll 265 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.399 name five or ten things when we're sort of doing 266 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:35.720 an exploratory kind of first conversations, and I'll respond to 267 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:37.600 some of those, and I just kind of won't respond 268 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.720 to other ones, and I'll be drawn to other ones. 269 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:43.360 And that is kind of uh and to the extent 270 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:48.120 that I have unconscious preferences around that, it is just 271 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:50.559 setting the bounds of what we can do. May I 272 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.480 give you a very dramatic example of this. 273 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.600 Yeah, please love it? Yeah, love it. 274 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:02.600 A wonderful thing happened started to happen in the nineteen 275 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.680 eighties in the United States. We had this explosion of 276 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.839 people talking about domestic violence and child abuse, right, It 277 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.279 wasn't we don't talk about that, which is kind of 278 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.480 what it was up until the seventies, or we're going 279 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.720 to work with it is you know, metaphor or dreams 280 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.799 or you know, it's like no, no, we've got this problem. 281 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:29.240 And so there was an embrace of look at all 282 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.160 of these victims who haven't been seen. It's great, look 283 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.920 at all these survivors who haven't been seen, and how 284 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.079 do we empower those people and how can we help 285 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.240 them as therapists? And so there we which is great, 286 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.400 and it was a it's been a wonderful thing for 287 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.880 the last thirty forty years where we've i would say, 288 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.240 sort of increased the permission space right as a as 289 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:55.519 a field where all of a sudden, actual domestic violence, 290 00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:02.119 actual child abuse is write more broadly in the society 291 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:07.200 that things like this are yes, we can we there 292 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.039 is space for us to work with us now in 293 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:09.480 the field. 294 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:10.079 Right. 295 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.640 But in doing that, we threw away the lessons that 296 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.799 we had learned in forty years of family therapy, which 297 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:26.000 is that in systems you've got bystanders and perpetrators as 298 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:30.400 well as victims and saviors. And so we're saying, we're 299 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.720 going to work with two of the four and we're 300 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.400 going to lock those other two roles out of the door. 301 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:38.079 We're going to make this a safe space. This is 302 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:42.559 my therapy space. Is for it to help for caretakers 303 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:44.599 and to help you to be strong and for victims, 304 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:49.079 to help the victims to heal and become strong and fluid. 305 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:53.759 But but we're going to block out the bad. But 306 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:59.480 of course when we have traumatic memories, we don't simply 307 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:03.720 remember or the victim or the victim and the perpetrator, 308 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.039 I mean the victim of the savior role. We're using 309 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:10.680 empathy at the time of the trauma to try to 310 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.880 imagine what is the perpetrator thinking or feeling right now, 311 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:16.319 Because if I knew that I could predict their behavior, 312 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:18.960 I could figure out maybe what to do. Why are 313 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:23.000 these other people or this other person not helping, So 314 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:28.920 what's happening? So we've got we've got you know, Johnny 315 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:31.079 who's ten years old and he's in the kitchen. It's 316 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.519 a repeated scene, and his father's drunk and his father's 317 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.160 beating him. So what is he doing? It's not just 318 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.119 that he's being a victim, and that's the memory. He 319 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.680 is trying to imagine what his father is thinking. Is 320 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.480 what is his father thinking? Why is his father doing this? 321 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:48.640 Because if he knew this, maybe he could interrupt his 322 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.000 father's behavior. He could just say or do the right thing. 323 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.960 He knows mom is in the house. Why isn't mom 324 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.519 coming in the room and stopping this? And he's trying 325 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.240 to imagine. So he's using this theory of mind, this 326 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:06.119 empathetic capacity, and it can be completely wrong. It could 327 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:09.480 be that, you know, his mom has her headphones in, 328 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:13.119 which she always does, and she doesn't hear, or it 329 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.200 could be her mom's His mama is standing outside the door, 330 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.440 just gnashing her teeth and wanting to go in, but 331 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:22.079 doesn't dare because she's afraid. Who knows what it is. 332 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:26.079 He's going to imagine something. He's going to imagine something, 333 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:33.960 So his imagined inner states of the perpetrator and of 334 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:38.279 the bystander exists as part of his memory. So we 335 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.720 remember the scene of the crime. We don't remember our role. 336 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:47.920 We remember the scene. So if we're doing therapy and 337 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.799 the savior is allowed and the victims allowed, and we're 338 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:53.920 going to work with that all the time, we've opened 339 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.680 up this place in the psyche. We're doing all this healing, 340 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.759 but we've got two roles of the bystander perpetrator, and 341 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:05.400 they're not allowed in therapy. How and so our unconscious 342 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.720 goes out and looks for it. Now, So think about 343 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.799 how many, how many times in our life it's it's 344 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:16.119 it's it's all through our field. Somebody has a better 345 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.640 and better relationship with their therapist and they become ever 346 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:25.839 more dissatisfied with their spouse. Well, it's because because in 347 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.680 the permission space of therapy, there's no room for the bystander. 348 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.720 There's no the person who does nothing. There's no room 349 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.920 for the perpetrator, the person who's who's making the assault. 350 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.720 And so the person's unconscious goes out and they try 351 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.359 to recruit people like they've got people on a play. 352 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.640 Who I need, somebody to play this I need, and 353 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.720 who's number one on the list. Your spouse could be 354 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:49.720 your kids, your parents, could be a sibling, and could 355 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:52.000 be a frank, could be somebody at work. You know, 356 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:54.839 spouse or romantic partner usually usually gets the gets the 357 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.680 role though, and now this person's having a split experience. 358 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.759 Therapy comes better and better, and their whole life gets 359 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:10.480 worse and worse. Yeah, this should be horrifying. 360 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:13.759 Yeah it's. 361 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:17.039 Pat Ogden said a wonderful thing to me when I 362 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:21.680 was training with her, and she said, you don't judge 363 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.759 the effectiveness of therapy by what happens in the session. 364 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:28.920 You judge it by how the person's life changes outside 365 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:36.160 of the session. Yeah, that's right. So and if we're so, 366 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:38.440 what does that mean for our permission space? If our 367 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:44.240 permission space means I'm good with saviors and victims, but 368 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:48.559 not but but but not the bad stuff, that's that's 369 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.799 that's not necessarily bad unless we pretend it's a full 370 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:54.440 permission space. If we just say, you know, in my therapy, 371 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.319 I work with victims. I help them get strong so 372 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.799 they can become caretakers themselves and send them out into 373 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.480 the world. It's really important to work with the bystanders 374 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:05.960 and the perpetrators. But I don't do that. Well, that's great, 375 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:09.920 nothing the matter with that. But to pretend that the 376 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.759 permission space is full includes the whole event when it 377 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:20.519 doesn't is really putting the unconscious of the client. There's 378 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.039 ever more and more pressure on them to heal the 379 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.720 whole piece. But they've got to find the bystanders and 380 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:31.799 perpetrators outside. The other thing to do, of course, is 381 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:35.599 to get comfortable holding the bystander role in the perpetrator 382 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:38.559 role as a therapist, and to learn how to work 383 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:42.039 with negative transference. Can we hold a container that is 384 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:47.359 connected and coregulating and safe, in which the eye as 385 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.440 the therapist can be the perpetrator. I can be the bystander, 386 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.960 and I can accept those projections on me while staying 387 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.480 in relationship and giving them a space for the client 388 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.640 to begin to integrate those parts of their own psyche, 389 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.640 which if they don't have a lot of support and 390 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:09.799 a lot of permission, is they're not going to want 391 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.640 to do it. I mean, like, why it's bad enough 392 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:15.720 this happened to me, and now I have to integrate 393 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:18.200 this role, to perpetrate it. The stuck inside my psyche, 394 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:22.440 I feel like I'm being violated again. Well, but it's there, 395 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.759 so to actually be free of it is to integrate it. 396 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:33.079 So we've got this permission space, and isn't it Is 397 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:41.960 it fair to say that the capacity, the fluidity, the 398 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:47.559 strength of the permission space is determined by the therapists 399 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:53.079 level of awareness, development, authenticity, vulnerability, willingness to the degree 400 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:58.640 to which they've done the inner work. Yes, so how 401 00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:02.119