WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.600 Hello everybody, and welcome to a brand new episode of 2 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.320 Second Take Cinema, coming at you from the Glorious Imparlor 3 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.000 Film's headquarters in sunny South End on Sea. I'm your host, 4 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:11.560 Jamie Evans, joined as always by mister Rory Joscelyn. 5 00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:15.800 The notes cool cool. 6 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:20.879 That's not, No, it's not And this is Listener Request 7 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.760 Month on Second Take Cinema. To be honest, I've not 8 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:25.760 actually worked out yet either. It will actually last within 9 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:29.039 one month, so basically doing five weeks, okay, five weeks 10 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.439 of listener requests, that's right. We went on our Discord 11 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:37.560 and our Patreon and we asked people to submit requests 12 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.520 of films they wanted us to cover here on Second 13 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:44.439 Take Cinema, and we picked the five best one. So 14 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:48.560 today's request is the two thousand and five superhero movie 15 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:53.640 Batman Begins. And that request came to us from Craig 16 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:59.520 from Leicester, from Leicestershire, and he wrote into us to say, Hi, guys, 17 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.560 I'd like to request Batman Begins for Listener Request Month. 18 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:04.400 I know you already covered. 19 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:07.560 The Dark Knight see previous episode, and I liked that episode, 20 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.159 but I've always thought Batman Begins is the best film 21 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.480 in Nolan's trilogy. I think it feels more accurate to 22 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:16.560 Batman the comic book character, and is a more solid story. 23 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.920 The Dark Knight feels unfocused with the whole two faced 24 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:23.680 thing at the end. Also, this batsuit is better, right. 25 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:28.079 We'd love to hear you guys discuss it. Cheers Craig. Well, Craig, 26 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:30.079 We're happy to grant your wish. We're gonna do a 27 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.719 whole episode talking about Batman Begins. So, just to sum up, 28 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:36.879 Batman Begins is a two thousand and five superhero movie. 29 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:40.280 Is directed by Christopher Nolan, who co wrote the screenplay 30 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:41.239 with David S. 31 00:01:41.319 --> 00:01:41.599 Goyer. 32 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.920 The film stars Christian Bale, Michael kainleam Nie and Katie Holmes, 33 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:50.799 Gary Oldman, Killian Murphy, Tom Wilkinson, Rutger Hower, Ken Waternobby, 34 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:53.879 and Morgan Freeman. It was made for a budget of 35 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.680 one hundred and fifty million dollars and it grossed three 36 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:01.000 hundred and seventy five point four million dollar at the 37 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:04.560 box office. On Rotten, Tomatow's Batman Begins has an eighty 38 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:08.240 five percent approval rating, with the site's critical consensus reading 39 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:12.199 brooding and dark, but also exciting and smart. Batman Begins 40 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.919 is a film that understands the essence of one of 41 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.479 the definitive superheroes. James barrard and Elli applauded Nolan and 42 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.560 Goya's work in creating more understanding into who Batman is 43 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.479 and what motivates him, something Barrardinelli felt Tim Burton's film 44 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:29.439 had lacked. At the same time, Barardinelli felt the romantic 45 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:32.240 aspect between Bail and Holmes did not work because the 46 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:36.560 actors lacked chemistry Christopher Reeve and Margo Kidder in Superman, 47 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.599 or Toby Maguire and kirst And Dunced in Spider Man 48 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.000 shared in their respective roles oh Get dunked on. According 49 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:47.240 to Total Film, Nolan manages to create such strong characters 50 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:50.080 and story that the third act action sequence cannot compare 51 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:54.039 to the frisson of two people talking and Katie Holmes 52 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:57.520 and Christian Bale's romantic subplot as a spark refreshingly free 53 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.479 of Peter Parker Mary Jane's style. Why so two completely 54 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:03.000 opposing opinions. 55 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.080 Refreshingly free of any chemistry as well. 56 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.360 The Los Angeles Times as Kenneth Turan, who felt the 57 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:13.080 film began slowly stated that the story, psychology, and reality, 58 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:17.120 not special effects, assisted the darkness behind Batman's arsenal. He 59 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:20.199 noted that Nissan and Holmes, unlike Bale's ability to feel 60 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:22.919 his role in his Bones, do not appear to fit 61 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:26.439 their respective characters in being both comic book archetypes and 62 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.199 real people. You mean to tell me Liam Neeson doesn't 63 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.560 fit a character called ras Al Gore. Yeah, I'd never 64 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:33.360 have imagined that. 65 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:36.800 Ever. Well, it's in his nature, you know, he sees 66 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.000 something he likes and it's taken. Yeah. 67 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:44.120 The New Yorkers David Denby did not share Barardinellie in 68 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.599 Turan's opinion. He was unimpressed with the film when comparing 69 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:50.159 it to the two Tim Burton films, and that Christian 70 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.080 Bale's presence was hindered by the dull, earnestness of the screenplay, 71 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.759 the final climax was cheesy and unexciting, and that Nolan 72 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:01.800 had resorted to imitating the fakery by other filmmakers when 73 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:06.840 filming action sequencers and I think like the quick cutting 74 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.840 and stuff like that to hide the stunts. Michael Wilmington 75 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.360 of the Chicago Tribune believe Nolan and Goya managed to 76 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:17.600 comfortably mix the tormented drama and revenge motifs with lighthearted 77 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.560 gags and comic book illusions, and that Nolan takes the 78 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:23.759 series out of the slam bang Hollywood joke fests the 79 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:27.639 franchise had drifted into. Comic book scribe and editor Dennis 80 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.319 O'Neil stated that he thought the filmmakers really understood the 81 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:33.519 character they were translating, citing this film as the best 82 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:36.759 of the live action Batman films. In contrast, J R. 83 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:40.279 Jones from The Chicago Reader criticized the script and Nolan 84 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:42.720 and David Goyer for not living up to the hype 85 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:45.360 about exploring Batman's damaged psyche. 86 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:50.399 To be fair like that sounds a little bit overblown, 87 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.160 like not living up to the hype maybe that some 88 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:56.879 fans had. But after Batman and Robin, there really wasn't 89 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:57.839 that much hype. 90 00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:59.920 No, I remember Batman Beginnings kind of coming and go. 91 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.319 I don't remember there being any hype until Dark Knight. 92 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.000 Yeah, because Batman Begins did really well. But on the 93 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:07.399 lead up to Batman Begins, I don't I was an 94 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:09.959 adult already by that point, and I do not recall 95 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:14.800 people clamoring for it it's always been shit because Batman 96 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:17.000 and Robin had damaged its reputation so much. 97 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:20.079 Yeah, Roger Ebert, we'd love to quote rogerie but on 98 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.720 the show. Roger Ebert, who gave mixed reviews to the 99 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:25.399 previous films and claimed in his review for Batman Returns 100 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.920 that he did not believe Noir worked in superhero films, wrote, 101 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:32.560 this was the Batman movie I've been waiting for. More correctly, 102 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.000 this is the movie I did not realize I was 103 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.519 waiting for. Giving it four out of four stars. He 104 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:42.319 commended the realistic portrayals of the Batman arsenal, the batsuit, 105 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.040 bat Cave, tombla, and the bat signal, as well as 106 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:47.959 the focus on the story and the character with less 107 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.199 stress on high tech action. 108 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.279 Yeah. So, I think a lot of people had the 109 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:57.240 same reaction, whether this was like the great Batman film 110 00:05:57.439 --> 00:05:59.959 or the great Batman reboot that nobody knew they wanted, 111 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:03.199 and which is why. Then the Dark Knight also did 112 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:04.959 a lot better, because a you're bringing back the Joker, 113 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:08.399 which is going to make a Batman sell more, and 114 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:11.240 also you had the Heath Ledger interpretation of it, which 115 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:12.759 then was huge as well. 116 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.600 And Lastly, director Tim Burton, who had directed the nineteen 117 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.920 eighty nine Batman film and Batman Returns, felt Nolan captured 118 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.600 the real spirit that these kind of movies are supposed 119 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.959 to have nowadays. When I did Batman twenty years ago, 120 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:29.000 in nineteen eighty eight or something, it was a different 121 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:31.959 time in comic book movies. You couldn't go into that 122 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:35.079 dark side of comics. Yet the last couple of years 123 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:38.360 that has become acceptable, and Nolan certainly got more to 124 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:39.959 the root of what the Batman. 125 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:40.959 Comics are about. 126 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:45.319 There were going a nice, nice bit of praise from 127 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:49.720 the original Batman director. So, Rory, do you recall the 128 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:51.480 first time you saw Batman begins? 129 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:54.120 I don't think I saw this one at the cinema. 130 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:57.199 I did The Dark Knight following it. I remember that 131 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:00.399 one very vividly. I don't know if if I watched 132 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.399 this one at the cinema, if I watched it when 133 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:06.279 it first got home to DVD, but I recall watching 134 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.279 it with my family and enjoying it. It was a very 135 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:13.519 good film. I certainly for its time. There's certain things 136 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.639 that have aged slightly badly, but for the most part, 137 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.360 it still holds up and I remember enjoying it at 138 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:23.040 the time and still enjoyed it when we watched it 139 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:26.759 this time. So yeah, there's not a huge amount to say. 140 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:29.199 My dad has told me that he thinks this is 141 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:32.560 the best of Nolan's trilogy. Oh fantastic. Yeah, so there's 142 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.839 but I don't agree. I'm firmly in the pocket of 143 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.839 the Dung as the best one, and that's not been 144 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.920 changed by this viewing. What I would say is, I 145 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.160 think I know why my dad would prefer this one 146 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:46.920 over The Dark Night. I think the reason my dad 147 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:49.199 prefers this one, he says, it's because it feels more 148 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:52.279 like a comic book than the sequels do, which I 149 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:54.600 would agree with him on. And the other thing is 150 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.560 my dad loves medieval movies, and specifically, and I trained 151 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.959 in this as well, with sword fight and stuff like that. 152 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:03.319 This has a lot of that, certainly at the beginning 153 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:06.680 where he's training with raj al Ghoul, whereas the sequels 154 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:10.360 don't really have much sword play. I think those two 155 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.079 things combined are the reason my dad prefers this one, 156 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:16.120 whereas I like the second one because it subverts the 157 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.800 genre and that's gonna be something that's gonna be Essentially, 158 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.839 that's gonna be if you like this film or over 159 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.160 the second one, that's gonna be what you'll choose it on. Yeah. 160 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.920 Do you want something that's very close, much more closer 161 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:32.360 to the comics, you'll prefer this. Do you prefer something 162 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:35.120 that subverts the genre, is a really fucking amazing crime 163 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.840 story with Batman on top, then you'll prefer the second one. Right, 164 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:41.960 But that that seemed to be the difference, at least 165 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.039 between me and my dad. So, yeah, what about yourself? 166 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:47.399 So I did see this trilogy in the wrong order. 167 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:49.759 This was actually the last one in the trilogy I saw. 168 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:52.559 Begins. 169 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:56.120 Yeah, so I had no interest in seeing Batman Begins. 170 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:56.559 Yeah. 171 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:00.840 I had been burned by Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, 172 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.080 which I both hate, I think terrible. I am in 173 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.679 the very weird camp where I enjoy Batman and Robin 174 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:08.799 more than Batman Forever. 175 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:10.480 Yes, they are both. 176 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:14.080 They're both terrible, but Batman and Robin I at least 177 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.159 find laughably terrible. 178 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.159 I think that there's Jim Carrey in Batman Forever being 179 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.600 full Jim Carrey. If you don't like Jim Carrey, you're 180 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:29.600 basically you're with Tommy Tommy Lee Jones. Yeah, to sanction 181 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:32.960 a buffoonery. Yeah. I can imagine if you ever got 182 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:34.960 if you were there at the time and had a 183 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.440 job with Jim Carrey, you would have been that guy. Yeah. 184 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:40.519 Absolutely, So I actually ended up seeing Dark Knight by 185 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:42.799 kind of accident. I had no interest in seeing. 186 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:46.799 Dark Knight either. I was I was literally done with Batman. 187 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:48.720 I'd like lost all interest in it. 188 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:51.600 And then there was all the hype for the Dark 189 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.159 Knight and I was like, oh, I'm sure it won't 190 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.039 be that good, and literally it was one boring summer's day. 191 00:09:57.080 --> 00:09:58.519 My friends like to want to come to the cinema. 192 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.159 What we're watching Dark Knight better than staying at home 193 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.240 all day in it. So when saw The Dark Knight, 194 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.480 loved it, went to the cinema to watch Dark Knight 195 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:07.720 rises as well when it came out in twenty twelve, 196 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.679 and then people yeah. And then it was in my 197 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:14.600 last year at UNI, which was the following year twenty thirteen, 198 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:21.480 I was making a superhero parody film and figured, hey, 199 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.600 I should probably see more superhero films because I actually 200 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:27.000 hadn't seen many up to that point. Is that the 201 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:30.559 Crimson Avenger yeah, and I hadn't seen many up to 202 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:35.360 that point. I had only seen Raymie spider Man trilogy, 203 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:41.159 the Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher Batman's and the first 204 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:42.480 the Richard Donner. 205 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:44.559 Superman with Christopher Eve in it. 206 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:49.440 Other than that, I don't think I had seen any 207 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:53.960 superhero films. I hadn't seen any of the Avengers or anything. 208 00:10:55.080 --> 00:11:00.879 So I went on a binge watch of every superhero 209 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:03.879 film I could lay my hands on, and let me 210 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:06.039 tell you, that was a ranging quality. 211 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.320 Yeah, you've got Electra on one end. 212 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.080 Yes, I didn't watch Electra, but I think the worst 213 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:13.720 one I ended up watching, well, I know, I know 214 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:15.679 the worst one I ended up watching, which was Ryan 215 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:20.840 Reynolds's Green Lantern, which is fucking dog shit. I also 216 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.960 ended up watching the old Fantastic Four film with Jessic 217 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:29.559 Crowber and Owen Grufford in it. Okay, and those films 218 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:32.919 are terrible, But I weirdly. 219 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:34.600 Have a bit of a soft spot for the first one. 220 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:36.360 And it might be. 221 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.639 It might be because somehow, at least until the end 222 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:44.279 of this year, when this might change, it's somehow, however unlikely, 223 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.639 This sounds is the best Dr Doom they've ever done, 224 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.840 which is not saying it's good because it's not. But 225 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.080 the Dodor Doom they did in fant four Stick was 226 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.440 so bad right that the one from the Chris evans 227 00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:59.320 Owen Grufford Fantastic. 228 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:04.799 Four looks better. Anyway, Batman mcginns was one of the 229 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:08.440 ones I ended up watching. I have to say I 230 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.200 was disappointed. 231 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:11.919 And that's probably because I saw Dark Knight and dar 232 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:14.600 Nut rise as first ye seeing. 233 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:16.159 It start from this point and build. 234 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.919 Yeah, they're both bigger in scope, and as I think 235 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:24.039 we talked about before we started recording, Nolan hasn't quite 236 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.360 found the style he wants the trilogy to be in 237 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:29.720 this one. This one does feel different from the other two. 238 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:32.840 The other two feel like they go together. This one 239 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.080 feels like it's a step removed. Yeah, the cinematography is 240 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:36.840 a good cue for that. 241 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:39.480 It still looks good. I'm not going to slag this 242 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:41.600 film off for a cinemata. He actually looks very good. 243 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:46.799 But the nighttime scenes aren't quite as contrasty. They're not 244 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.159 quite as dark. They there's a whole bit where at 245 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.759 night Batman stood on a wooden beam, looking down and 246 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.320 chatting to Gordon and he's literally like lit up as 247 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:01.960 if it was bright daylight, and it's meant to be 248 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:03.639 the middle of the night and he's meant to be Batman, 249 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.840 and Batman's costume in the bright daytime doesn't look great. 250 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.320 So and it's not that it's a bad costume, it's 251 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.600 just it's not that sort of a design, you know, 252 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:16.519 it's something that works in the nighttime, And so there's 253 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:20.440 that issue. Also, Gotham looks very different in this film. 254 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.360 The second two films something else that I like about them, 255 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.519 but other people might dislike about them. They look like 256 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:31.919 ordinary cities, whereas in this one it's not quite the 257 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:36.720 cheese and camp of the original Batman film, certainly not 258 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:42.480 the Batman and Robin version, which has massive pseudo naked men, 259 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:46.279 ripped at Las style dudes, is as statues and shit 260 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.440 all around the place. But it's got a style to 261 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.480 it that's slightly out of reality, including the big monoail, 262 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.399 which becomes a big part of the story. Yes, now, 263 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.120 a lot that's all cgi and that's a different thing. 264 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:04.480 We'll discuss the cegy later. But the yeah that there 265 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.559 is this This Gotham doesn't look like the other Gothams 266 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:12.559 from the next two films. So is it's kind of 267 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:17.159 like that jump you got between Batman for Batman Returns 268 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.440 Batman Forever, or certainly if you were to jump from 269 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:25.080 Batman Returns to Batman and Robin, Yeah, the style and 270 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:30.159 tonal difference would be quite jarring. I now, it's funny. 271 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.720 Craig mentioned in his letter that he found Dark Knight 272 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:34.879 to be unfocused. 273 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:40.519 I find this to be really unfocused. Right. Why is 274 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:44.039 Scarecrow even in this film he's kind of a middleman 275 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:46.960 for raj al Ghoulis. Yeah, and I know this, this 276 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.840 is just disappeared off at one point and never comes. 277 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:51.679 And this is purely my opinion. 278 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:53.600 And I know a lot of comic book fans will 279 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:56.559 disagree because ras Algall is actually a huge villain in 280 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.080 the comics who's like really important and stuff. I'd work 281 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.440 way way rather watch Scarecrow, and not just because is 282 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.480 Killian Murphy. I know he's flavor of the month at 283 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:12.679 the minute. I just think it's so much, so much 284 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:16.080 versus scare Please please, you know, sue me. I want 285 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.039 a little bit of super in my superhero film. I'm 286 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:21.639 more interested in a guy who's got a toxin that 287 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.639 can cause hallucinations and fear and shit than I am 288 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:27.360 in Liam Neeson with a badly stuck on go tea, 289 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:34.720 Oh the food Manchu doing martial arts. It's more interesting 290 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:36.480 to me. And like I said, that's a personal taste thing. 291 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.039 I know a lot of people would disagree. I wouldn't 292 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:42.879 say that that makes it unfocused. I think the benefit 293 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:44.960 that that ended up having, though it doesn't if you 294 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.799 take this film in isolation it doesn't really work, is 295 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.759 that it brought allowed for Killian Murphy to be kind 296 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.720 of the recurring villain throughout the trilogy. He's the only 297 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.679 villain who recurs throughout all three. But that being said, 298 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.639 that's something that they can built into it later. It 299 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:03.639 wasn't a planned thing, I don't think. 300 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.360 And the way he goes he just gets sort of 301 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.279 tasered once well for some reason riding a horse. Yeah, 302 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.559 that's never explained because he's never shown riding horses at 303 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.759 any other point now. And also the reason he's riding 304 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:17.840 the horses because everyone else is going mad because they've 305 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.879 sprayed the toxins in the air, but some reason it 306 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:23.360 doesn't affect the horse. They never explain that, So it's 307 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:25.519 not that it's unfocused. It just feels like there's bits 308 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:26.600 of information missing. 309 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.279 Well, it's just because I feel like there's like four 310 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.679 villains in this movie, not all at the same level. 311 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.919 So you've got the head of the mafia, which is 312 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:37.440 Tom Wilkinson. 313 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.080 Yes, Falcony he gets to. 314 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:43.399 Basically there's a villain per act because you've got Tom 315 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:46.960 Wilkinson's the villain in the first act. Then Scarecrows the 316 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:49.879 main villain of the second act, and then ras Algall's 317 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:51.759 there for the third act, and then you kind of 318 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.799 just have because they I guess they decided, well, you know, 319 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.919 not just batman, Bruce Wayne needs a villain as well. 320 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.080 You've kind of got Roger Howard just pottering around and 321 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:01.759 being like, hey, I'm a bad business man. 322 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:04.640 Five thing, because you've also got the guy who was 323 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.160 in Sons of Anarky who plays the cop opposite the cop. Yeah, 324 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:10.799 so yeah, you've kind of got five villains. Though I 325 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.839 don't think the corrupt cop or is it Earl the 326 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.400 Rocker House characters. I don't know what the character's name 327 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:21.759 wasn't I just see great hobo with a shotgun. Here 328 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.079 he is. This is how he felt because he loses 329 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:25.319 his job at the end of the film, and so 330 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.240 that's how he becomes the hobo with a shotgun. But basically, 331 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.039 I'm not sure if you would classify the the bent 332 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:39.000 Cop and the Rotgahwer characters as villains quote unquote before Batman, 333 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.279 because they're not super villains in the way that Batman 334 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.200 would normally fight where a scarecrow raj al Ghoul definitely are, 335 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:50.160 and Falcone isn't a super villain, but because he's Mafia, 336 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:56.160 he definitely classifies the I don't know it, I see 337 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.519 what you're saying. And none of them get tied off either, 338 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:05.000 because other than raj al Ghoul, they're all alive. Now, Rokka, 339 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.640 how are we know? Not that we knew this at 340 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:11.759 this point, but Roka Howard's character becomes ineffectual essentially because 341 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.640 he never returns the bank cop in this isn't seen 342 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.680 in the sequels either. I'm not sure get two new 343 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:20.519 bank cops in the next one. Yeah, I'm not sure 344 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:22.359 if one of them is meant to be replacing him 345 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.160 as the same role or if they're just different named characters. 346 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.799 But to be fair, there are bank cops all over 347 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:32.039 Gotham City, so it kind of makes sense the so 348 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.079 those two are in effectual. We get the Scarecrow comeback, 349 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.400 so he doesn't get dispatched. Earl doesn't come back, so 350 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:44.359 he's an effectual and Large is the only one who 351 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:47.519 gets dispatched. Yeah, so he gets killed, but that doesn't 352 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:48.000 stop him. 353 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.759 In the third one, crow barring his daughter in and 354 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:53.960 being like surprise, Yeah, but that's not this film's first. 355 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:55.880 That's not this film's fault. And to be that did 356 00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:58.039 ruin the third film because it should have been communism 357 00:18:58.119 --> 00:18:58.880 as the main. 358 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:01.200 Sort of But my other thing that makes me feel 359 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:02.640 like it's not focused very well. 360 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:04.079 And I want to just be. 361 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.559 Clear, I'm not trying. I'm not trying to imply that 362 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.359 I didn't like this film. I don't think it's a 363 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:13.160 terrible film by any stretch of the imagination. I just 364 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.160 I'm explaining why I do not think it is the 365 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.960 best one in the trilogy. The moral center of this film. 366 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:20.640 Completely doesn't work in my opinion. 367 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:24.640 The whole thing is Batman goes to train with the 368 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.759 League of Shadows, and he does his training, and that's 369 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:29.880 where we get all the backstory in the flashbacks and shit, 370 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:32.559 and then at the end they're like, congratulations, you've passed 371 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.519 your training. Your finally, your final task of initiation is 372 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:38.160 you've got to kill this motherfucker. 373 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.440 And Bruce it's. 374 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:46.400 A guy who's he stole someone's farmland, and Bruce Way 375 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.599 won't do it because this is where he sets up 376 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.920 his rule of I will not kill people because that's 377 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:56.400 not justice. And you get this nice little ethical conundrum 378 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:59.759 where Ra's al Ghoul. Well, no, we don't know that 379 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:02.039 le obese, and Isra's alcohol admitte At the minute, we 380 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:06.680 think he's Henry Ducarte. He's sort of come the exact line. 381 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:13.920 But it's something like criminals prey on the forgiveness of 382 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:19.640 society and basically implying that you can't forgive them it 383 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.960 doesn't matter what crime they've done, or crime needs to 384 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.039 be treated with a firm slap. 385 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:28.400 Yeah, which I don't know how they then classify themselves 386 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.480 because they're as much as they might think they're doing 387 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.440 the good work, they are murdering people. So technically, you know, 388 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.880 if the rule is there is no soft spot in crime, 389 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:38.359 they've got to kill themselves. 390 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.160 Yeah, I've got a bit as well. That was my 391 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.480 other things from the comic program. I know, I'm going 392 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:48.160 off topics slightly, and this is again from the comic, 393 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:50.759 so but it makes me laugh. They go, yeah, this 394 00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:53.200 is a more realistic Batman for realistic take. 395 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:54.480 Who are the villains? 396 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.960 Oh, it's this ancient order that survived for thousands of 397 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.400 years and we're behind the fall of Rome. I'm always 398 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.200 a little bit like, right, okay, yeah, they did the 399 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.759 Great Fire of London as well, right, Okay, they put 400 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:06.960 the bibotic plague godship. 401 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.000