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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. In this revised, updated, and expanded edition, the
Speaker 6: author explores the life of Theodore Bundy, one of the
Speaker 6: more infamous and flamboyant American serial killers on record. Bundy's
Speaker 6: story is a complex mix of psychopathology criminal investigation in
Speaker 6: the US legal system. This in depth examination of Bundy's
Speaker 6: life in his killing spree that total dozens of victims
Speaker 6: is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence, and interviews with detectives
Speaker 6: and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information about several murders
Speaker 6: is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from his broken family
Speaker 6: background to his execution in the electric chair. The book
Speaker 6: that we're featuring this evening is The Bundy Murders, A
Speaker 6: Comprehensive History, second Edition, with my special guest, journalist and author,
Speaker 6: Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program. Thank you very
Speaker 6: much for this interview.
Speaker 3: Kevin Sullivan, Hey Dan, how things going. I'm happy to
Speaker 3: be back. I know we always have a great time
Speaker 3: when we talk about Ted Bundy, and now we're revisiting
Speaker 3: the book that started at all, the Bundy Murder, and
Speaker 3: this time it's the second edition, so I look forward
Speaker 3: to our talk.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. It's always great to have you on as the
Speaker 6: resident world expert on Ted Bundy. And as you mentioned,
Speaker 6: this is where it all started, this book, The Bundy Murders,
Speaker 6: about ten years ago. As you write in this second edition,
Speaker 6: tell us, though, let's go back. Tell us about the incredible,
Speaker 6: like you say, nothing less than surreal events which led
Speaker 6: to the writing of this first edition of the book.
Speaker 3: Tell us about this sure, sure, it's interesting. I never
Speaker 3: had any intention of writing about Ted Bundy. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with the case. But there's a Louisville connection
Speaker 3: to the Bundy story and it was in the person
Speaker 3: of Jim Matthey. He was a friend of mine. He
Speaker 3: was a probation pro officer here in Louisville, Kentucky for
Speaker 3: many many years, retired out after thirty years. He passed
Speaker 3: away a couple of years ago. But he was a
Speaker 3: friend of Jerry Thompson. He had known the retired investigator
Speaker 3: Utah investigator and I should say, the lead investigator for
Speaker 3: the Bundy case in Utah. He had known him since
Speaker 3: the mid to early nineteen eighties, and so we would
Speaker 3: occasionally talk about Bundy. I hadn't read any books about,
Speaker 3: you know, Ted Bundy, but we would talk about it.
Speaker 3: And when Jerry and his wife Jean were coming to
Speaker 3: Louisville back in May of two thousand and five, I
Speaker 3: got a call and of course you know they you know,
Speaker 3: they've been friends with Jim and so that you know.
Speaker 3: He he called Jim and he said, well, you know
Speaker 3: we're we'll be in Louisville in May. This was like
Speaker 3: in March. So Jim called me and he said, listen,
Speaker 3: the Thompsons are coming to Louisville in May. Would you
Speaker 3: like to have dinner with us? I said, sure, I
Speaker 3: think that would be great. I would love to at
Speaker 3: the time, I only had one book to my name,
Speaker 3: and that was my first book, Shattering the Myth. Signposts
Speaker 3: on coasters wrote to UH a disaster, and I was
Speaker 3: writing a true crime book, and I was also writing.
Speaker 3: I wasn't on staff, but I was writing occasionally, UH
Speaker 3: feature articles for a local newspaper which was really published
Speaker 3: in Lexington, Kentucky, and and Louisville, Kentucky and in about
Speaker 3: five or six about five other states. UH and UH.
Speaker 3: The paper was called Snitch and it had to do
Speaker 3: with my crime and the law. And so I did
Speaker 3: several features for them and and some others in the
Speaker 3: UH pipeline when the paper went out of business. UH.
Speaker 3: But but but in any event, I said yeah, because
Speaker 3: I wanted to meet, you know, Jerry. I'd heard things
Speaker 3: about him, and it was my only opportunity to meet,
Speaker 3: you know, somebody that was connected with the case. I
Speaker 3: didn't think it was going to lead to anything, really,
Speaker 3: So I got to meet Jerry. And what happened was
Speaker 3: on the Sunday that they arrived into Louisville, Jim called
Speaker 3: me and he let me know where we were going
Speaker 3: to be eating dinner. And I was about to say, okay,
Speaker 3: well you know, I'll see you there whatever, And he
Speaker 3: said he brought the bag. I said what bag? He said,
Speaker 3: the bag Bundy carry like his Merma kid. He said,
Speaker 3: I have it with me now on my truck. So
Speaker 3: I said, listen, Jim, could I meet you a few
Speaker 3: minutes early, I mean earlier than when we were supposed to,
Speaker 3: you know, meet them in the parking lot of the rest.
Speaker 3: But I said sure. So, you know, I got in
Speaker 3: the car, drove up to Gold Corral and it was
Speaker 3: not too far from my house up there in the
Speaker 3: exploiting area, and the Thompson's was staying about a half
Speaker 3: a mile down the road to a place called the
Speaker 3: Broken Ridge in and so I got there, you know,
Speaker 3: and as soon as they were then there was Jim
Speaker 3: in his truck. He was getting down the truck he
Speaker 3: saw me, and he was carrying this brown satchel and
Speaker 3: that was Bundy's murder kit and it was encased in
Speaker 3: a large, clear plastic bag that Jerry had it in
Speaker 3: because he's had this bag ever since Bundy was executed.
Speaker 3: He got it from you know, the Salt La Countys
Speaker 3: ARIOSO Office evidence room, and he used it as teaching
Speaker 3: duels anyway, So I got to look at all this
Speaker 3: stuff and went back to the Brigan Ridge in you
Speaker 3: know afterwards, and sat around and I interviewed Jerry and uh,
Speaker 3: just a really really really nice guy. And what I
Speaker 3: did was I wrote an article for Snitch about having
Speaker 3: this bag. Oh, and I need to tell you this.
Speaker 3: On the second he turned the bag over to Jim
Speaker 3: for as long as they were in Louisville, and they
Speaker 3: were here about four days, so I got to meet
Speaker 3: him that night. I got to see this stuff. It's
Speaker 3: a it's a it's it's it's a gym bag, a
Speaker 3: brown one. It had two right handed gloves in it.
Speaker 3: There were different ones of Puffy's ski type field as
Speaker 3: a brown, a light brown woolen glove with a darker
Speaker 3: brown like leather palm area. And it had electrical cord
Speaker 3: which he would use very often for choking. It had
Speaker 3: rope and strips of sheet for binding of hands and feet.
Speaker 3: It had a ski masks. It had glad banks because
Speaker 3: he would always take the clothes of the victims and
Speaker 3: it you know, if they were found at all, they
Speaker 3: were found nude, they might have a beaded necklace on them,
Speaker 3: but he would always put the clothes. You know, this
Speaker 3: is before real DNA was there, but still there could
Speaker 3: be connecting hairs and things, so he would get rid
Speaker 3: of those in the dumpster down the road. And this
Speaker 3: particular glad box was a box of tin and there
Speaker 3: were three missing, so so he had that, and there
Speaker 3: was an ice pick, a flashlight, you know, just the
Speaker 3: duels of the trade of murderer Bundy. And so I
Speaker 3: called Jim a couple of days later and I said, listen,
Speaker 3: could I bring that stuff to over to my house
Speaker 3: the photograph it. He said sure. I went by Jim's house.
Speaker 3: It had just gotten like, you know, dark, and I
Speaker 3: picked up the bag. I put it in the in
Speaker 3: the passenger seat of my car, and I started driving,
Speaker 3: and it was so surreal having ted Bundy's you know,
Speaker 3: murder kid with me. And I looked over in the
Speaker 3: passenger seat and because it was dark, I'm going down
Speaker 3: the streets and there'd be street lamps occasionally, and when
Speaker 3: I would pass one, the bag would be kind of dark,
Speaker 3: and here comes the street light, and then it had
Speaker 3: this eerie glow it would shine on the bag, and
Speaker 3: then it was so I called my wife and I said, listen, honey,
Speaker 3: she said, we probably don't have anything on the din
Speaker 3: room table, but if we do, can you kind of
Speaker 3: clear it off? And I'm bringing Ted Bundy's murder kid
Speaker 3: into the house because I want to photograph it. And
Speaker 3: my son in law was there, and my wife she
Speaker 3: doesn't really like things like this, but she said, oh, okay, sure,
Speaker 3: that's fine, and uh so I took it to my house,
Speaker 3: not my son in law. At the time. He was
Speaker 3: able to arrange it in different ways and I was
Speaker 3: taking pictures and then I took the bag back to
Speaker 3: Jim later that night. And when the Thompson has left Louisville,
Speaker 3: uh like four days later, she said, why don't you
Speaker 3: meet us over at the Breckenridge in So we went
Speaker 3: over there and we took some more pictures and talked,
Speaker 3: and while he was waiting on his wife, she was
Speaker 3: doing some things in the room, Jerry was down with
Speaker 3: us in the parking lot. Uh Jim had popped that
Speaker 3: the tail thing on his truck, and uh, you know,
Speaker 3: Jerry was sitting on and the bag was there. So
Speaker 3: we took more photographs and before Jerry left, he gave
Speaker 3: me and he gave Jim each one of the glad
Speaker 3: bags taken from Ted Bundy's Murkett and I said, Jerry,
Speaker 3: would you mind writing a letter of authentication? And he
Speaker 3: said sure. So I didn't have a paper on me,
Speaker 3: so I walked into the Broken Regina and I got
Speaker 3: some of the large stationary you know, like if I
Speaker 3: wanted to if I found a letter in the broken ridge,
Speaker 3: it's across the top, and I had, and he wrote
Speaker 3: one out for each of us. I said, thank you
Speaker 3: so much. Well, I wrote an article for Snitch and
Speaker 3: this appeared I think in June or July of two
Speaker 3: thousand and five, and I thought, you know, I would
Speaker 3: get all of this out of my system, and you know,
Speaker 3: you know, just by doing this oracle. And so I
Speaker 3: was published. It was well received, but it didn't leave
Speaker 3: my system. And the funny thing is I kept wanting
Speaker 3: to know more about it. Just having that glad trash
Speaker 3: back and having that kid in my house and meeting Jerry.
Speaker 3: I had to say it was more of the kid
Speaker 3: than even meeting Jerry, because I would have read an
Speaker 3: article even when I forgid about Jerry. But it was
Speaker 3: having those items that were so close to Ted Bundy
Speaker 3: and there was in my house there was no museum
Speaker 3: curator or a detective there to tell me what to
Speaker 3: do with it, and it was just surreal. So that
Speaker 3: was the impetus. That was the thing that really drove
Speaker 3: me to start writing about Ted Bundy. And I mentioned
Speaker 3: the Massey I was going to write a book, and
Speaker 3: I told some others and they said, listen, Bundy has
Speaker 3: been done to death. You don't need to be writing
Speaker 3: a book about him. But as I've often said, sometimes
Speaker 3: you have to go with not what people say, but
Speaker 3: what you know on the inside. You need to be
Speaker 3: doing when you really know you should be doing it.
Speaker 3: And I did, and so you know, I wrote the book,
Speaker 3: and I remember thinking halfway through the book I was
Speaker 3: finding out new things never before published about several of
Speaker 3: these murk and a tremendous amount of new information about
Speaker 3: the case in general. And of course it was it
Speaker 3: turned out to be the smartest move I've ever made,
Speaker 3: because the book has been a good seller every well.
Speaker 3: It was published in August of two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3: At the time, nobody really knew who I was, so
Speaker 3: it took a while for that to get going. But
Speaker 3: once you know a number of people you know read
Speaker 3: the book, were like influential. They knew other people and
Speaker 3: they told other people, and you know, all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: after a while, people started knowing who I was in
Speaker 3: this and the book has you know, has just done
Speaker 3: nothing but built and built and built over the years.
Speaker 3: And you know, in twenty seventeen, well, I should say
Speaker 3: I had documentarians contacted me as early as twenty ten
Speaker 3: about my book, and the American documentary makers really didn't
Speaker 3: get I guess the message about me for a long time,
Speaker 3: or perhaps they weren't making any docs about Bundy. But
Speaker 3: by twenty seventeen I had just a number of documentarians
Speaker 3: from the United States and the UK and contacting me
Speaker 3: about Bundy, along with many national magazines of publications. Won
Speaker 3: the information, and none of the all of these these
Speaker 3: documentary makers.
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Speaker 3: The one thing they had in common they all had
Speaker 3: my book, The Bundy Murders, a comprehensive history, and some
Speaker 3: of them asked me to come on the show, but
Speaker 3: even those ones that didn't, or the ones like Netflix
Speaker 3: at the last minute asked me to do it, that
Speaker 3: I could not get to New York in the time
Speaker 3: frame that they asked me, and so I couldn't do
Speaker 3: the doc. But he said, I got your book, and
Speaker 3: I said, well, I'm glad because there's a lot in
Speaker 3: there that you can make use of. So it's been
Speaker 3: a real experience, and of course this is the book
Speaker 3: that I never expected to ever write anything more than
Speaker 3: this book on Bundy, which is the full treatment of
Speaker 3: the murders and what I would call the full biography.
Speaker 3: And then, of course, in twenty fifteen, because of some
Speaker 3: people that have passed away and some information that I had,
Speaker 3: I decided to write what is known as a companion
Speaker 3: buy into that, which became the Trail of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 3: And interestingly enough, I was able to uncover new information
Speaker 3: in that book. That is people do it never talked before,
Speaker 3: like Larry Anderson, who out of Utah, who was a
Speaker 3: good friend of Ted Bundy's. He told me, he said,
Speaker 3: you know, been on hunting down, he said. I was
Speaker 3: offered a lot of money one of the national magazines
Speaker 3: several days after Bundy was executed to give my testimony
Speaker 3: about it, but I just didn't want to do it.
Speaker 3: So then he ends up talking to me twenty years later,
Speaker 3: doesn't ask for a dime and that, and there's a
Speaker 3: lot of testimonies in there that have never been in
Speaker 3: print before. And so I said, great, that's a good
Speaker 3: companion by him. And then the next year, because of
Speaker 3: some other things that happened, I did write another book
Speaker 3: and that was called The Bundy Secrets, and in that
Speaker 3: another group of new testimonies as well as the republication
Speaker 3: of the record and then commentary for me because people
Speaker 3: love seeing different parts of the record. Another one I
Speaker 3: did a year or so later called Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries. Uh.
Speaker 3: And it's it's a deeper look into the victims and
Speaker 3: just it turned out to be a really good book. Uh.
Speaker 3: And I got a lot of information. There was again
Speaker 3: new testimonies that had never come to the printed page before,
Speaker 3: you know, like the Bundy Secrets, I interviewed a woman,
Speaker 3: I mean Louise Cannon, and outside of the detectives in Utah, nobody,
Speaker 3: no writer has ever interviewed her or it really saw
Speaker 3: her out. Ted tried to work for a bank and
Speaker 3: so her story is in there. And was interesting about
Speaker 3: Louise Cannon story is Louise who already knew Ted in Utah,
Speaker 3: and Ted always chatted her up and was you know,
Speaker 3: it was just like almost like the life of the party.
Speaker 3: She ran into him one night at a bar around
Speaker 3: a loot before eight thirty pm, and it was October eighteenth,
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four, and that was just about an hour
Speaker 3: and a half before he would abduct Melissa Smith. And
Speaker 3: she said, as I walked in, And of course you
Speaker 3: can read this story in the Bundy Secrets, because she
Speaker 3: said walked in, she saw him on a barstool up
Speaker 3: the bar. So she was going to her a table
Speaker 3: where her friends were, and she said, hey, Ted, how
Speaker 3: you doing? He said, hey, Louise, And she's noticed that
Speaker 3: he was not his jovial sense he looked different, sounded different,
Speaker 3: and that was you know, he was drinking alcohol. So
Speaker 3: they didn't change a lot of words. And then she laught.
Speaker 3: She I meant, you know, to the table, she said.
Speaker 3: The next time she looked over, he was gone. Now
Speaker 3: we know from the record, we from what we know
Speaker 3: about Bundy, we know that he would jumpstart himself many
Speaker 3: times before going out and hunting, and that's what he
Speaker 3: was doing. So within a that's around eight thirty, by
Speaker 3: ten o'clock, he's abducting Melissa Smith. That was This bar
Speaker 3: that she was at with him is called Willill McCoy's
Speaker 3: and it was very close to where Melissa was the
Speaker 3: Pepperoni Pizza where she had gone up there to visit
Speaker 3: her friend, and people theorized that he was in there.
Speaker 3: Somebody tasked about later that he was in there after
Speaker 3: he came to light. And what's interesting, they don't know
Speaker 3: if he gave her a ride, probably not, that that
Speaker 3: might be more likely he followed her all the way
Speaker 3: home when the head of her got out and attacked
Speaker 3: her in a darkened part of the neighborhood. Because there
Speaker 3: was a woman I see in the book at the
Speaker 3: unlikely hour of like eleven o'clock out breaking the leaves,
Speaker 3: and she heard one scream pierce the night air. So
Speaker 3: stories like this were coming to light. Nobody had interviewed
Speaker 3: Leslie palm Mener. She is in the record. That's the
Speaker 3: fact as to what Bundy tried to do with her
Speaker 3: on February eighth in Jacksonville, try to kidnap her from
Speaker 3: a kmart parking lot until her brother showed up. But
Speaker 3: all these people came forward. So in Ted Bunny's mur Mysteries,
Speaker 3: I've published these. I published more things about the record
Speaker 3: with commentary and other things, which is very interesting, digging
Speaker 3: deeper in the record about the victims. So I get
Speaker 3: done with that two days after it's published. I got
Speaker 3: to tell you when I when the book I might
Speaker 3: have published. I like to relax. I like to take
Speaker 3: some time and just relax, see other books, doing do
Speaker 3: some interviews. I'm not thinking about any other books. That
Speaker 3: was going to be it for me. I was contacted
Speaker 3: by Fella and he does a lot of work in
Speaker 3: the Civil War area, but he's got a really interested
Speaker 3: in Ted Bundy. So he said, have you never thought
Speaker 3: about doing a encyclopedia of Ted Bundy? I said that
Speaker 3: just book. My publisher just published this book on on Bundy.
Speaker 3: It's the fourth book. It's supposed to be the final book.
Speaker 3: I said no, and then I said, you know what,
Speaker 3: I think I'll table that for now. He said, well,
Speaker 3: I'll do it. I would do it myself, and I'm
Speaker 3: just too busy. I said, well, it's a good idea,
Speaker 3: I admit it. So a couple of days later I
Speaker 3: kept feeling good about it, feeling good about it, so
Speaker 3: I called my publisher and I said, I thought maybe
Speaker 3: the publisher would say, oh no, we're really not interested
Speaker 3: right now. I could say, oh good, you can put
Speaker 3: it only shelf to treat it. But they liked the idea.
Speaker 3: So here I go again on the fifth book. But
Speaker 3: it was different. It was an encyclopedia, and there is
Speaker 3: nothing out there on Bundy like it. There are psyched
Speaker 3: encyclopedias of killers, obviously, but nothing exclusively about Buddy. So
Speaker 3: I wrote the book. It was kind of a fun
Speaker 3: book to write because I was able to delve into
Speaker 3: the lives of a lot of people that were a
Speaker 3: part of the story, be a newspaper, writers or somebody else,
Speaker 3: but beyond their role there, I didn't know a lot
Speaker 3: about them, so I kind of got I was able
Speaker 3: to dig into their stories and so it was interesting
Speaker 3: to write. So that was published. So I, you know,
Speaker 3: after a while, I had the feeling I said, you know,
Speaker 3: there's some other avenues that more people have contacted me.
Speaker 3: There's some other avenues that I would like to explore
Speaker 3: with Ted Bundy that have to do with a lot
Speaker 3: of questions and controversies and things that heretofore have not
Speaker 3: been answered or certainly have not been answered to a
Speaker 3: substantial way. And I said, between that and some other
Speaker 3: things I've got going with the book and the new interviews,
Speaker 3: I'm going to do one last Bundy book. And so
Speaker 3: I have done it. I'm so happy that I did it.
Speaker 3: I did something that I never really thought I would do.
Speaker 3: In twenty in two thousand and eight, two thousand and
Speaker 3: seven eight, I interviewed I mean, I interviewed a lot
Speaker 3: of people for the book to Bunny burse but some
Speaker 3: of them I interviewed on tape, and those on tape
Speaker 3: were Jerry Thompson, Don Patch, and On Holmes. I even
Speaker 3: interviewed Jim Massey, but I couldn't locate the tape. So
Speaker 3: I wrote a piece about Massy in the sixth book,
Speaker 3: covering a lot of things he told me. But I
Speaker 3: transcribed all of these other three tapes and it was
Speaker 3: like it was like I had forgotten so much of it.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting to see these now in that people
Speaker 3: can read their transcribed those will be in the book,
Speaker 3: and so there's just a lot in there. So I
Speaker 3: was really glad I did this last sixth book and
Speaker 3: that'll be out in late November. That's the last I
Speaker 3: heard from my publisher. So it's been a long run
Speaker 3: I've written. After this new book book is published, it's
Speaker 3: going to be a little over fourteen hundred pages, and
Speaker 3: that's a lot of writing about one man in one case.
Speaker 3: But because the case is so voluminous, covering so many
Speaker 3: people in so many states. But I've left a great
Speaker 3: body of work for people concerning Ted Bundy, and that
Speaker 3: makes me really happy because it makes me feel like
Speaker 3: I've really done my job. But it all started with
Speaker 3: the Bundy Mers and it just you know, it's it's
Speaker 3: been a great ride. But I got to tell you
Speaker 3: it was an unexpected one.
Speaker 6: M You write in the preface to the twenty twenty
Speaker 6: edition that this investigative journey took over two and a
Speaker 6: half years and put you in touch with hundreds of
Speaker 6: people and tens of thousands of pages of official documents. Yes,
Speaker 6: and the Life and Murders of Ted Bundy. You decided
Speaker 6: early on to approach the story in a way that
Speaker 6: was different from what previous writers had done. So when
Speaker 6: people think they'd read everything, what was your different approach
Speaker 6: and in writing this.
Speaker 3: Book, well, you know, I did want to do it differently.
Speaker 3: I wanted to write a book where the reader would
Speaker 3: find themselves except for the first chapter where Bundy is
Speaker 3: kind of hidden in the shadows, but the majority of
Speaker 3: the book, I wanted it to be like people were
Speaker 3: right behind Bundy, writing right in the back seat or
Speaker 3: walking with him, and you'd be seeing it from his perspective,
Speaker 3: and you were right there. What I like to say,
Speaker 3: in real time, as all of these events occur, be
Speaker 3: they with Bundy or be they with the victims, potential victims,
Speaker 3: Susan Rancourt, Georgie and Hawkins, everybody. And you know a
Speaker 3: lot of people have said that, not writing they said,
Speaker 3: they say they I heard it again just the other
Speaker 3: day from a couple of people. They said, you're a
Speaker 3: really good storyteller. And I said, well, that's interesting, and
Speaker 3: the one person said, really good storyteller and narrator. And
Speaker 3: I said, funny that you should say that about storytelling,
Speaker 3: because I said, two of these documentary people from two
Speaker 3: different networks, once they interviewed me and I did the shoots,
Speaker 3: both of them said, and I never said a word
Speaker 3: about it. They said, you know you are a really
Speaker 3: good storyteller. So I said to this lady the other day,
Speaker 3: I said, well, I said, you know that it's true.
Speaker 3: That's how I wanted to present the story. And I said,
Speaker 3: I guess you could put it in terms of being
Speaker 3: a good storyteller, because I had people, I have the
Speaker 3: reader following following right along with Bundy, and it just
Speaker 3: I knew by doing it that way it was going
Speaker 3: to shape the book a little bit differently than what
Speaker 3: other writers have done. And also I had the benefit
Speaker 3: of writing my book some twenty years after the events,
Speaker 3: which allowed some of these detectives to open up more
Speaker 3: like Mike Fisher did and tell me things that he
Speaker 3: otherwise wouldn't have if I'd gotten hold of him back
Speaker 3: when Bundy was just being being put to debt. But
Speaker 3: it's the way I told the story, and it's resonated
Speaker 3: with people and they really like it from that as now,
Speaker 3: I don't consider my book in competition with any other
Speaker 3: Bundy book. It's just different. That's the only thing I
Speaker 3: can say about. It doesn't have no information, or it
Speaker 3: did as a twenty twelve A lot of people have
Speaker 3: taken that information and used it in publication since that time,
Speaker 3: and of course that's fine. It's really fine if they
Speaker 3: give me credit for it, but if they don't, it's
Speaker 3: still out there. And it was out there in twenty twelve,
Speaker 3: I mean two thousand and nine when the book was published.
Speaker 3: So I think it just goes back to how I
Speaker 3: decided to write the book, and people feel like it's
Speaker 3: kind of up close and personal, and that's the way
Speaker 3: I wanted to do it, and thankfully I've had a
Speaker 3: knack for it, and it really paid off in writing
Speaker 3: a book like The Bundy Murders, because I got to
Speaker 3: follow his life through so many states and through so
Speaker 3: many years, and I took the same approach to the
Speaker 3: victims as they would come into his life and disappear.
Speaker 3: It's just kind of like that up close and personal
Speaker 3: look wait.
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Speaker 1: It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you.
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Speaker 2: No, we're not necessarily mediately void. Where everybody lost the
Speaker 2: terms conditions eating.
Speaker 6: Plus let's get to that storytelling, because we have to
Speaker 6: compress an incredible story into a short period of time
Speaker 6: and still have people understand what it is you bring
Speaker 6: to the story. In reading other Bundy books, what I
Speaker 6: think you bring here, and it's evident, is that you've
Speaker 6: done the necessary research twenty years after the fact, and
Speaker 6: in that you had these connections like doctor Robert T.
Speaker 6: Keppel and Michael Fisher Don patchin the work of doctor
Speaker 6: Al Carlisle, William hagg Meyer from retired FBI agent. And
Speaker 6: so what you did is you filled in, as you write,
Speaker 6: all the gaps. And so what we want to start
Speaker 6: with is in this incredible story in January of nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy four, where Ted Bundy is showing his face but
Speaker 6: still we do not know. No one knows the nature
Speaker 6: of this beast. But January thirty, first you talk about
Speaker 6: Linda Ann Healy's twenty one years old, and she's a
Speaker 6: senior at the University of Washington at Seattle, and she's
Speaker 6: near her graduation. But unlike many other books, you take
Speaker 6: us to January fourth, nineteen seventy four, a few weeks
Speaker 6: before this, to Terry Caldwell and that's not a real name,
Speaker 6: but to tell us what happens on January fourth, to
Speaker 6: inform us how things must have happened on January thirty first,
Speaker 6: So tell us about January fourth, nineteen seventy four and
Speaker 6: Terry Caldwell before we talk about Linda Heey's disappearance.
Speaker 3: And let me say this tough that when I did
Speaker 3: a serial killer conference at Duqueine University and spoke there
Speaker 3: back in September, I talked about how Bundy and there
Speaker 3: is why I'm saying this now, so that you know
Speaker 3: the listeners will have an idea. Having studied him for years,
Speaker 3: I found a pattern of Bundy. And if you look
Speaker 3: at the attack on Terry Caldwell on January fourth, and
Speaker 3: her name is her real name is Karen Sparks. I
Speaker 3: use it as a pseudonym in this case. I felt
Speaker 3: like I had to because someone told me years ago
Speaker 3: that Karen Sparks was not the real name. Well be
Speaker 3: that as it may. So I've got three pseudonyms in
Speaker 3: the book. That's one of them, but I used to
Speaker 3: Terry Caldwell. I'll do the other one with Diane Edwards
Speaker 3: because I write a lot about her and I did
Speaker 3: that for legal reasons, so I gave her a pseudonym,
Speaker 3: and I do it with the doctor that was with
Speaker 3: Karen Campbell and doctor and Katowski, your boyfriend in there,
Speaker 3: I call him doctor Brinkman. It's really doctor Rosenthal. But
Speaker 3: those are only three. But in any event, if you
Speaker 3: notice the murdered Bundy started attacking women in the wee
Speaker 3: hours of the morning and would gradually back it up
Speaker 3: to earlier times in the evening and by the time
Speaker 3: he got and he was seen, which was probably the
Speaker 3: first time where he exposed themselves to potential victims on
Speaker 3: the campus of CWSC where he got Susan Rancourt at
Speaker 3: around ten o'clock on April seventeenth, but he exposed up
Speaker 3: a little bit in the late afternoon, but then he
Speaker 3: went back to all nighttime abductions until his blinding light
Speaker 3: of day double attack at La Samamish on July fourteenth,
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy four, that created so much stirring of everybody,
Speaker 3: and so many people saw him and gave composite drawings
Speaker 3: that he went back into the shadows. Nobody ever talked
Speaker 3: about this before, and I don't even talk about this.
Speaker 3: The Bundy murder This is something I've come to more
Speaker 3: recently and spoke about it for the first time publicly
Speaker 3: at this at the Hunting the Hunters conference in Pittsburgh
Speaker 3: back in September. But he goes back into the darkness
Speaker 3: after that because I think he knew he created. He
Speaker 3: kind of bit off more than he could shoe with
Speaker 3: with that large daylight attack with forty thousand people were
Speaker 3: there under the beautiful sun at La Samanas. Okay, and
Speaker 3: you won't see him again do a daylight attack that
Speaker 3: we know of until Denise Oliverson, which happens in you know,
Speaker 3: like the spring of seventy five. Anyway, on It's Bundy
Speaker 3: was the first attack. He may have killed before nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy four. That's fine. I think he did. Even told
Speaker 3: Bob Capell, Yeah, there was one of these, seventy three,
Speaker 3: he said, seventy two, but then immediately backed out. I
Speaker 3: think he allowed to Keple. He took it back, he said,
Speaker 3: oh no, no, no, that could be someone that's very
Speaker 3: young that he didn't want to talk about. But he
Speaker 3: attacked this lady named Karence Parks. Karen lived in a
Speaker 3: basement apartment in the University district. She was not a student,
Speaker 3: and there were some other guys in the house that
Speaker 3: she lived in a basement apartment and you could actually
Speaker 3: stare into her room if the curtains weren't closed, but
Speaker 3: they had a habit of leaving the back door unlocked. Well,
Speaker 3: I do not believe for a second Bundy just stumbled
Speaker 3: in there. He was a peeping tom. He was all
Speaker 3: over those there. He started that we know of going
Speaker 3: and looking at the windows in seventy two, maybe even
Speaker 3: a little bit earlier, where he would just you know,
Speaker 3: walk around and look and he'd steering and he would
Speaker 3: masturbate in the bushes if he saw a naked woman
Speaker 3: do a thing. This is what he did. But he
Speaker 3: must have seen her, he knew she was there. But anyway,
Speaker 3: got down in her apartment, no doubt do that, down
Speaker 3: locked door and he was. He had a speculum with him.
Speaker 3: And where they think that he obtained the speculum. He
Speaker 3: had worked for a Medico, a medical supply company, and
Speaker 3: from that supply company he had Pilford plaster of Paris
Speaker 3: authority to think he took the speculum from there, and
Speaker 3: he may have gotten crutches from there because he had clutches,
Speaker 3: list all the crutches. Later he lied about who they
Speaker 3: belonged to. It he's I had to give them back
Speaker 3: or whatever. But he goes in there and he severely
Speaker 3: beats this woman and he ends up ramming this speculum
Speaker 3: up her vagina. He did a lot of damage there.
Speaker 3: He did a lot of damage to her skull. And
Speaker 3: and I'm sure when he I'm sure when he left
Speaker 3: he believed that she was going to expire, you know,
Speaker 3: she would die. So he didn't carry her out like
Speaker 3: he would do with the next abduction with Linda and Ely.
Speaker 3: So he left her and he couldn't know that convinced
Speaker 3: that she would die. Well, the next morning, one of
Speaker 3: the guys looked in on her, but she was sleeping,
Speaker 3: the covers were up, you know, they didn't bother her.
Speaker 3: And then but at seven thirty at night that very night,
Speaker 3: one of the guys who had hurt she was sleeping
Speaker 3: in the morning looked in on her. She still hadn't moved,
Speaker 3: so they went in. They uncovered the blanket or whatever.
Speaker 3: She was beaten so severely. I mean, they didn't even
Speaker 3: know if she was dead. She was either looked dead
Speaker 3: or hery looked like she was close, close to death.
Speaker 3: Lena Abulance was called and they came and got her.
Speaker 3: She spent thirty days in the hospital. I believe she
Speaker 3: was in a coma for ten. But she did survive and
Speaker 3: she's out there now. Now here's what I think Bundy did.
Speaker 3: I think Bundy was perturbed and he said to was,
Speaker 3: I can't prove this, but there's a lot of circumstantial
Speaker 3: weight behind it because of how vastly different these attacks were.
Speaker 3: So we attacked Terence Barkser. Terry call was in and
Speaker 3: I looked on January fort seventy four at the on
Speaker 3: January thirty first of seventy four, I believe Bundy was
Speaker 3: in Dante's tavern, and Dante's tavern is just a couple
Speaker 3: of blocks one then he was playing something in the book.
Speaker 3: Both both lookal edacations. It's an easy walk. And she
Speaker 3: went with two of her friends, and she went with
Speaker 3: a guy named Pete Neil. Pete Neil is know, he's
Speaker 3: just a friend that he had a brush with history
Speaker 3: and his name name is going to forever be enshrined
Speaker 3: with going and seeing them at the house, going to
Speaker 3: Dante's with them and as they came home, he went
Speaker 3: in the house. He had to catch the Mount forty
Speaker 3: one bus. Fact that his area of town. So we
Speaker 3: grabbed some record album said he wanted to take back
Speaker 3: on with him that were his. And Bunby told the
Speaker 3: writer Stephen the show about concerning that night. Of course,
Speaker 3: all of the third person that he went to the
Speaker 3: front that he in other words, it's like he followed
Speaker 3: them home. He went to the front door and he
Speaker 3: checked it, turned the knob and the door opened. He
Speaker 3: did not enter the door at that time. Now, this
Speaker 3: won't be as soon as they returned home, but he
Speaker 3: had been watching the ass and he did it. And
Speaker 3: he said, so you know, you know the show says,
Speaker 3: what did you enter entered at that time? He said, no,
Speaker 3: I left and I came back in the middle of
Speaker 3: the night, so he said, but he had no compunction
Speaker 3: about going through people's homes in the middle of the night.
Speaker 3: So this is fine. It makes me think that he
Speaker 3: very well may have killed and reverbed. We don't know.
Speaker 3: He certainly alluded to it. With all the denials, he
Speaker 3: alluded to it and really themselves to it with with
Speaker 3: Ron Holmes and you'll hear about fat people that that
Speaker 3: I write about it a little bit in The Bundy Murders,
Speaker 3: but you'll you'll actually hear the or you'll be able
Speaker 3: to read the transcript from Holmes. But so he goes
Speaker 3: back and and he gets in there. Now it makes
Speaker 3: this thing surreal. And I've always said that, you know,
Speaker 3: all the time out Suddy Murder, I had never found
Speaker 3: an abduction more surreal and more weird than this. He
Speaker 3: goes in in the middle of the night. He without question,
Speaker 3: he must have entered through the front door. He goes
Speaker 3: down and they think women are just they're in the
Speaker 3: different rooms. But in the basement there's Karen Skevene might
Speaker 3: be scavellm but it's but she's down and she's on
Speaker 3: the right. As you go down the steps, there's a
Speaker 3: side door that leads down the steps. The side door
Speaker 3: is closer to the front of the front door. You
Speaker 3: come up the front walkway and you hit a there's
Speaker 3: a first set of steps and there's a walkway that
Speaker 3: leads to the right of the house. I doubt if
Speaker 3: he entered that way because the guards dried the front door.
Speaker 3: He walked up the second steps, entered the front door,
Speaker 3: made his way to the basement. Some people think that
Speaker 3: maybe he targeted Healey. I think I don't know if
Speaker 3: that's true. I think he targeted the women there. And
Speaker 3: he gets down to the base. When you walk down
Speaker 3: these basement steps, I got a picture of it in
Speaker 3: the book, and there's a when it booms out that
Speaker 3: there's three more steps to the right. There's an old
Speaker 3: kind of vacuum cleaner there that was sitting there. The
Speaker 3: police took a shot of this, and so he goes downstairs,
Speaker 3: turn of the right. When he gets down to the right,
Speaker 3: he's faced with two rooms that are separated, and they're
Speaker 3: individual rooms, but they're really only separated by pain and
Speaker 3: partitions of plywood. They don't have a lot of privacy.
Speaker 3: But when then Heally was straight in front of him
Speaker 3: and Karen was on the right, well, he goes in there,
Speaker 3: no doubt, shuts the door. Some people have mistakenly think
Speaker 3: that Bundy club Heeally, but that's not true. We know
Speaker 3: it's not true because there's no blood spatter. There's only
Speaker 3: blood flow on the bed. And what he told Michelle,
Speaker 3: when Michelle, you know, I wanted to know how this
Speaker 3: person did that, he said, well, you'd have to I
Speaker 3: think Bunny says, so like you have to go into
Speaker 3: the physiology of choking somebody and how a nosebleed can
Speaker 3: happen from that. And so you're Linda sleeping. She didn't
Speaker 3: even go to sleep until probably around one or something.
Speaker 3: I think Karen next door. I think she went down
Speaker 3: the basement. She said, I was sleep probably around one thirty.
Speaker 3: But he choked her. She must have awakened and then
Speaker 3: choked her and choked her back into unconsciousness. She had
Speaker 3: a nose bleed. Here's what he does. He takes you know,
Speaker 3: once she's out cold, you know, choking somebody. You have
Speaker 3: to assume that he's on top of her, and maybe
Speaker 3: she's kicking and making some noise, even if it's so
Speaker 3: sticking against the up and down on the bed, who knows.
Speaker 3: But he's not bothered by that. Once he gets her unconscious,
Speaker 3: he takes the nighty off and hangs up in the closet.
Speaker 3: He grabs a believe it was a red backpack, put
Speaker 3: some clothes in it, takes her off the bed. He
Speaker 3: would either have had to put her in a chair
Speaker 3: probably or on the floor, probably a chair, and then
Speaker 3: he makes the bed. But I like to say in
Speaker 3: military fashion, because it was a really well made bed.
Speaker 3: And there was two things about that. It was a
Speaker 3: week night, it was actually a Friday night. Well actually
Speaker 3: it was a Thursday night, Thursday night morning early Friday
Speaker 3: morning when when he did this, so it was still
Speaker 3: the weekday. And Karen, I mean, Glynna never made her
Speaker 3: bed during the week because she had to be at
Speaker 3: Northwest Promotions doing the weather reports that you know that
Speaker 3: morning before she's in class two hours or four hours later,
Speaker 3: what have you. She never made her bed and the
Speaker 3: other people did. And so the residents testified to that,
Speaker 3: and they said, not only does she not make the
Speaker 3: bed during the week, but she can't make it like that,
Speaker 3: it's too well made. So he grabs her and we
Speaker 3: don't know. He probably wrapped her in a blanket. I
Speaker 3: think he covers with the show that she wasn't trust
Speaker 3: I can't imagine him trying to dress her, but he
Speaker 3: took some clothes to back back with her. Now, when
Speaker 3: you come out the side door, you can do two things.
Speaker 3: You can turn to the right and go down to
Speaker 3: the sidewalk and you'll have one short flight of steps
Speaker 3: to go down. There're steepend. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 3: can do it you're carrying somebody, or you can take
Speaker 3: a left go to the backyard and there's there's a
Speaker 3: fence and there's no gate. But he would have had
Speaker 3: to have laid her down kind of like dropped her
Speaker 3: over the fence. And the alleyway is really narrow, but
Speaker 3: there is an alcove I think a little bit down
Speaker 3: from there where he could have parked the VW because
Speaker 3: if he parked it right there at that gate, it
Speaker 3: kind of effectively blocks another car from going around, and
Speaker 3: he wouldn't have one of that. But you know, when
Speaker 3: I was describing this on on ABC, you kind of
Speaker 3: get both both. I believe I gave both scenarios, and
Speaker 3: they used the one and that's a great Dog that
Speaker 3: ABC Dot twenty twenty, which they replayed a year later
Speaker 3: and then put Liz Kendall and her real daughter in it.
Speaker 3: And I'm still there in all those scenes and they
Speaker 3: even add some. But but in any event, uh, And
Speaker 3: they went with the wall where he took her down
Speaker 3: the front steps, and that maybe exactly what he did,
Speaker 3: or he could have gone out the fact play and
Speaker 3: one way or another he had his car closed up
Speaker 3: by Still. This was bold, exceedingly bold, Douglishman. It's a
Speaker 3: bold of abduction. Never heard anything like it. And he
Speaker 3: gets her in the car and off she goes, Well,
Speaker 3: what do I think he did that for? Why didn't
Speaker 3: he just sexually assault her and then just make sure
Speaker 3: he killed her there? Well, for two reasons. I think
Speaker 3: one he wanted to make sure that she really was dead,
Speaker 3: But two, I think he had a desire to play
Speaker 3: with her some at the place where he was going
Speaker 3: to murder her and then leave her body, or they
Speaker 3: could have been two several locations. So he does that
Speaker 3: and uh, you know, of course, you know here comes
Speaker 3: But oh when something else happened, which I absolutely believe
Speaker 3: it's Bundy, we can't prove it. The following day, I
Speaker 3: should say, since she disappeared in the middle of the
Speaker 3: night the early morning, everybody gets up there wondering where
Speaker 3: she is. It's kind of worrisome. Her bike is there.
Speaker 3: They think she had a nosebleed with mom. But the
Speaker 3: bike's there. As she wouldn't walk away. She wasn't didn't
Speaker 3: show up in classes that day, She never came home.
Speaker 3: She was having her parents there that night and her
Speaker 3: brother for dinner and she had never come home, and
Speaker 3: so her comes, you know, they have to. The father
Speaker 3: comes over. He feels so sorry for the father of
Speaker 3: the brother, and they you know, they don't know what
Speaker 3: to do. And father calls the wife. Mister Healy calls
Speaker 3: and don't come over, she said. He called up his no,
Speaker 3: I think I'll wait a while. She said no, and
Speaker 3: then she said, okay, like I'll handle it, and she
Speaker 3: called herself. Patrolman comes over. But around eight point thirty
Speaker 3: that night, and throughout the night, a couple I think
Speaker 3: the two calls or maybe walking through where you know,
Speaker 3: one of the young women answered it and instead of
Speaker 3: anybody talking, she could hear breathing on the other end.
Speaker 3: But the person, I have to think that's Ted Bundy
Speaker 3: and he was a game player and I think he
Speaker 3: had known about that house. I don't know if he
Speaker 3: was hunting for Linda per se. I frankly think he
Speaker 3: just zero then maybe wrecking as Linda maybe recogn that's
Speaker 3: one of the other ones too, because he was a
Speaker 3: UW Steven as well, and he followed them hall. So
Speaker 3: I think that's probably how this thing occurred. But it's
Speaker 3: a fantastic and odd a strange abduction, and so that's
Speaker 3: how he pulled that one off. Third the difference between
Speaker 3: parent Sparks and Lyndan Healey, but yet in a strange way.
Speaker 3: I think they might be kind of leaked. He was gonna,
Speaker 3: I mean linked, He was going to make sure that
Speaker 3: the Heally abduction didn't end up like the Spark attack,
Speaker 3: which calls her to be able to live.
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Speaker 6: we were talking about the strange abduction of and the
Speaker 6: next yes, sorry, Linda and Heally. And another woman that
Speaker 6: you you talk about shortly after this is Donna Manson,
Speaker 6: and again she you you write that she was likely
Speaker 6: unaware of Terry Caldwell or Linda and Heally. And what
Speaker 6: you read about here with Donna Manson is the way,
Speaker 6: especially early on and probably throughout this, but especially early on,
Speaker 6: where people dismissed the disappearances, even though they were quite
Speaker 6: strange disappearances because of certain circumstances or characteristics of that victim. Again,
Speaker 6: we're talking about the seventies, and no one has any
Speaker 6: experience with serial killers and their behavior. So tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about Donna Manson before we talk about
Speaker 6: Kathleen Dolivio.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, the Manson case is an interesting one. We
Speaker 3: don't know whether Donna had heard about the girls in Seattle,
Speaker 3: but even if she had, which you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: We know, we don't know how much she was paying
Speaker 3: attention to news. A lot of college because they don't
Speaker 3: want they're too busy doing their own things. So she
Speaker 3: may not have heard about it. But even if she did,
Speaker 3: I don't think she'd been too concerned about it. Because Olympia, Wait,
Speaker 3: lucky landslide.
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Speaker 3: Washington is a good distance away, and that's where Evergreen
Speaker 3: State College is. And when you hear a mers in
Speaker 3: another city, even in your state, you think, well, you
Speaker 3: know it's there. Thank god, it's not here. But Bundy
Speaker 3: was familiar with the campus of of Evergreens State College.
Speaker 3: And it's a pretty college, but it is all it's
Speaker 3: as I say in the book, if you know, it
Speaker 3: was built in the midst of a force of fur trees,
Speaker 3: and the concrete structure known as Evergreen is sitting in
Speaker 3: all this natural beauty and it works well. And when
Speaker 3: I was there in the twenty fifteen, it's a beautiful place.
Speaker 3: But it's also this It also can be quite creepy
Speaker 3: when you think in terms of murderous cereal killers, abductions,
Speaker 3: because what you have on the campus, you have a
Speaker 3: lot of trails on that campus, and when students are
Speaker 3: walking the trails, whether they're find themselves or with the group,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. They're encased in trees. And so the
Speaker 3: story goes, and the facts are Donna on the early
Speaker 3: evening that she was in the You have to get
Speaker 3: to kind of look at it. The first year dorms
Speaker 3: was to the right, a pretty good distance of where
Speaker 3: she was going. Nobody had identified until my book, The
Speaker 3: Trail of Ted Bundy, taking up the Untold Stories. Everybody
Speaker 3: knew that Donna was heading to a jazz concert somewhere
Speaker 3: on the campus, but nobody really knew where. So when
Speaker 3: I went to Evergreen State College, I went to the
Speaker 3: archives department and lo and behold, there's a guy named
Speaker 3: Randy there. He had started work there in nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 3: it says twenty fifteen, and he was still there. So
Speaker 3: I asked him if there was a way if we
Speaker 3: could find out exactly where that jazz concert was. So
Speaker 3: and I got the tour of the campus. He said,
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to do some really in depth
Speaker 3: research about this to see if I can locate it.
Speaker 3: So he said, give me your number, and I said sure,
Speaker 3: And so you know, I said, okay, well, you know
Speaker 3: we'll be in touch. So I leave the campus, My
Speaker 3: wife and I leave taking photographs. We've you know, walked
Speaker 3: over there everywhere. This guy's uh, this guy's office was
Speaker 3: down in the basement area of the library, and I
Speaker 3: have a picture of the library in the book. Anyway,
Speaker 3: a number of days later he contacts me and he
Speaker 3: sends me some files and I open them up, and
Speaker 3: one of them is a like the the Evergreen State
Speaker 3: College like bulletin that was published in their newspaper what
Speaker 3: have you. And for the evening of her disappearance the
Speaker 3: jazz concert there, it is right there on the publication.
Speaker 3: And it occurred within the library. So when she left
Speaker 3: her uh, her dorm, she was walking by herself. She
Speaker 3: had her grandmother's code on. I stay in the book.
Speaker 3: It must have felt really good because it was a
Speaker 3: little drizzly cool, and it was cool, and she headed
Speaker 3: off down this trail was we know the trail she
Speaker 3: probably there's two trails, but she would have been going
Speaker 3: out of a way to take the other one. So
Speaker 3: we know the trail that she was on. And near
Speaker 3: that trail there is a and I talk about this
Speaker 3: more also in the sixth books that's coming after. There's
Speaker 3: a road right next to it. Now we don't know
Speaker 3: if she ever made it to the library, but we
Speaker 3: don't think so from what we know, you know, she
Speaker 3: probably disappeared on that trail, well perhaps right if she
Speaker 3: cleared it, if Bundy were hanging out near an area
Speaker 3: by the library but nobody remembered seeing, or the jazz
Speaker 3: concert was on the first floor. Cops did energies, nobody
Speaker 3: saw her. Nobody can recall seeing her outside on the
Speaker 3: concrete areas or in the area where you know she
Speaker 3: would have been if she would, let's say, ran into
Speaker 3: somebody and would be talking to them. So it chances
Speaker 3: are and we don't know, but it may be that
Speaker 3: Bundy parked on that road like it's a service road,
Speaker 3: I think, and either way later and carried her a
Speaker 3: short distance to his car, or because Donna liked to
Speaker 3: do drugs and things like that and she wasn't the
Speaker 3: greatest student, and I talk about that in the book,
Speaker 3: he may have lured her away through the use of drugs.
Speaker 3: We don't know, but we do know that we do
Speaker 3: suspect and I say we are all the research. I
Speaker 3: mean I do as a researcher, and I think other
Speaker 3: people do too. That once it came out where she
Speaker 3: was going to and it was published for the first
Speaker 3: time in my book The Trailer of Ted Bundy. Then
Speaker 3: you look at a map of it and you know
Speaker 3: where she was in her first year dorm and where
Speaker 3: the library is and the trail you have to cross.
Speaker 3: Everybody had comes to the same conclusion that nobody saw
Speaker 3: her up in the library or outside of it. There's
Speaker 3: no reports of that, no matter how many people they interviewed.
Speaker 3: She had to have disappeared on the trail, and probably
Speaker 3: the trail was empty. So because everybody else I wanted
Speaker 3: to get to the library probably got there sooner and
Speaker 3: maybe was coming from another direction. So you know that's
Speaker 3: but it's an interesting college, but you look around it
Speaker 3: just it's perfect for a predator. And Bundy had to
Speaker 3: have recognized this. So and you know she's also the
Speaker 3: person that when you know she's a Washington State murder.
Speaker 3: Kevil was talking to the Bundy about this. He asked
Speaker 3: some details about it, and Bundy must have been really inebriated.
Speaker 3: Maybe not so much as he grabbed her, but as
Speaker 3: he took her, probably unconscious, or as soon he made
Speaker 3: her unconscious on the way out of the school campus
Speaker 3: or whatever he did, he probably knocked her out, uh,
Speaker 3: and then he probably just heavily got because he said,
Speaker 3: it's all like a blur, It's almost like a dreamlike
Speaker 3: kind of thing, and he didn't really want to discuss
Speaker 3: it all that much. But yeah, it's a strange abduction.
Speaker 6: M let's get to Susan Elaine Rancourt. She's eighteen years
Speaker 6: old and she worked full time in his nursing home
Speaker 6: and went to school and she vanished. But you right,
Speaker 6: unlike Donna Manson, Susan Rancourt's disappearance was not taken lightly.
Speaker 6: Her roommate final person's report the next day. So what
Speaker 6: happens with this investigation? Again, this is slow going for investigators,
Speaker 6: of course, but because this is different, what do they find?
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the case of Susan Rancourt, I mean you
Speaker 3: could start comparing some of Bundie's victims and some of
Speaker 3: them were kind of you know, they had a tendency
Speaker 3: to get up and go, and you know it wouldn't
Speaker 3: be until a week or so later when people said,
Speaker 3: a wie, you know, I wonder herselings were wrong. But
Speaker 3: that wasn't the case of Susan Rancourt. Susan had her
Speaker 3: had really screwed on well, she knew where she was
Speaker 3: going she wanted to go into she was thinking about
Speaker 3: going into medicine. She kept a four point zero average
Speaker 3: even though she was working and.
Speaker 6: She was.
Speaker 3: She was in the midst of actually switching jobs, that
Speaker 3: she was going to keep working and keep booking hard
Speaker 3: in school. And in that very day she and I
Speaker 3: point this out in the book because I found it
Speaker 3: in the record, she went some baby in like a
Speaker 3: park there in Ellensburg and had no idea that come
Speaker 3: ten o'clock at night she would she would run into Bundy.
Speaker 3: Bundy had gone to Central Washington State College, which is
Speaker 3: over the Cascade Mountains. And it's funny because you know,
Speaker 3: Bundy had a good friend, He had two good friends
Speaker 3: growing up, and they were Terry Storwick and one Dodge.
Speaker 3: They were best friends, the three of them. And when
Speaker 3: he made that trip over to Central Warston State College
Speaker 3: in Ellensburg now it's called Central Warston University, Terry Storwick
Speaker 3: was there. I mean he was. I think he still
Speaker 3: had some classes there, and I think he had a
Speaker 3: girlfriend there and whatever. But Bunny could have run into her.
Speaker 3: But he wanted to go there and he wanted to
Speaker 3: go hunting. And it's clear that he hunted on a
Speaker 3: couple of days, a couple of different days there, but
Speaker 3: on the night that he got Susan Rancourt at ten o'clock,
Speaker 3: he was actually in the afternoons spotted there by some people,
Speaker 3: including a fellow named Kent Barnard that is in the record.
Speaker 3: And then I interviewed Kent for the Trail of Ted
Speaker 3: Bundy and he elaborated on more things about Bundy that
Speaker 3: just didn't show up on the record where he's spotted
Speaker 3: him later that nine or whatever. But but but you know,
Speaker 3: interesting guy to talk to, but he didn't get anybody.
Speaker 3: He tried to abduct another woman and that that didn't
Speaker 3: work out for him.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: Bundy is also he was just so cutting. By the
Speaker 3: time I was there in twenty fifteen, it had changed.
Speaker 3: But Bundy centered basically on Bullian Library and behind Bullan Library.
Speaker 3: At the time Bullion Library was situated and all students,
Speaker 3: even if they parked in a parking lot like in
Speaker 3: the back, they had to enter the library in the front.
Speaker 3: They couldn't en it from from the rear. So Bundy
Speaker 3: did all this kind of like hunting up in the
Speaker 3: front of the library or maybe on the side. If
Speaker 3: you walk to the side of the Bullion Library. There
Speaker 3: it is situated between and there's a pretty good distance
Speaker 3: not you know, but it's situation between the between the library,
Speaker 3: and then you're looking on a building that's facing the
Speaker 3: side of the library a little distance away called Black Hall,
Speaker 3: not the Black Hall of today where it's been added
Speaker 3: to and it's an H shape with a connecting corridor.
Speaker 3: There was just one building and today there's buildings all
Speaker 3: around this area. And at the time that Bunny was there,
Speaker 3: there was just Black Hall facing one building facing the
Speaker 3: side of the library, and then there was a small
Speaker 3: building called the Group Conference Center. And then between the
Speaker 3: Group Conference Center and the library there was a man
Speaker 3: made pond and a bridge you had to walk over.
Speaker 3: And people that read the record will be you know,
Speaker 3: they'll be able to see this about the bridge. Bundy
Speaker 3: had parked in an area now in the area behind
Speaker 3: the library and going past the library where it would
Speaker 3: be in front of Black Hall, and then there's just nothing.
Speaker 3: This is where a railroad line used to go through
Speaker 3: and there was a railroad to Rustle Park there. It
Speaker 3: was in Bundy parked in a no parking area in
Speaker 3: the most desolate area on the campus he could find
Speaker 3: and not well lighted, overgrown with grass, and he had parked.
Speaker 3: I mean, you take a look at that, and you're
Speaker 3: a young woman, you think, you know what, I don't
Speaker 3: want to go there, but this guy seems to be normal.
Speaker 3: In any event, he parks there. At the time, there
Speaker 3: was a parking lot directly behind the library, but not
Speaker 3: where he had parked, and there was a parking lot
Speaker 3: like north of that. Today that's all one parking lot
Speaker 3: and the drestle's gone. So I'm you know, with the
Speaker 3: help of a man, Dave Facebook friend and Dave Woodie,
Speaker 3: he's started all this out and grew exactly where that
Speaker 3: drestle ran through. And I've taken pictures of that spot
Speaker 3: and people have seen those. But at the time, you know,
Speaker 3: it was just a very desolate area. And I say,
Speaker 3: in the Bundy Murders, it's a great place to commit
Speaker 3: a murder or at least again once. And by the
Speaker 3: time he reached uh area with the one woman that
Speaker 3: he didn't wasn't able to abduct, she had helped him
Speaker 3: with his books there and you know the Dlibo, you know,
Speaker 3: you know lady, she helped him with his books and
Speaker 3: when she got to the car, she was a little
Speaker 3: suspicious of him, of course, and she was ready to
Speaker 3: whack it with the books that she needed to And
Speaker 3: he's on no, you know, he has slaying on his arm.
Speaker 3: He just looks like he's having a hard time. She
Speaker 3: sees that the passenger door, I mean the passenger seats out.
Speaker 3: But in any event, she doesn't go with him. She
Speaker 3: helps him, but then leaves. He doesn't have a chance
Speaker 3: to attack her. He had no doubt place the crowbar
Speaker 3: like he did in the Hawkins abduction and Julie Cunningham abduction.
Speaker 3: And he carried a short eighteen inches or seventeen seventeen
Speaker 3: and a half inch crow work serious model six five
Speaker 3: seven seven. Maybe there's some competing my models, but there's
Speaker 3: a small pro bars, not the long ones. And he
Speaker 3: could easily wheeled that in his car. But he used
Speaker 3: to place that behind the sometimes like like the right
Speaker 3: tire or the rear in that rear area, like right
Speaker 3: by the right tire, so he could as they're helping
Speaker 3: he put in books or crunches, he could he could
Speaker 3: pull that tire out and whack them. He didn't get
Speaker 3: he didn't have a chance to do that, uh with
Speaker 3: with the one girl. Turns out that when he ran
Speaker 3: into Susan Rancourt that night she had placed some she
Speaker 3: she had a meeting to become a dorm camp councilor
Speaker 3: on campus, and she had walked down a couple of
Speaker 3: blocks down from the library to a building called months
Speaker 3: in All. She lived on the other side of the
Speaker 3: campus on bart In Barrow Hall, and she when she
Speaker 3: was after she had the dorm counselor meeting, she was
Speaker 3: heading back to get her clothes out of the dryer.
Speaker 3: That you know, she passed the library which she runs
Speaker 3: in the Bundy, not at the library, but I think
Speaker 3: the street a street or so before it, and somebody
Speaker 3: saw her and identified her by what she was wearing,
Speaker 3: and also identified a man who looked like he was
Speaker 3: in a daze, wearing like a ski Parker jacket. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: And so he must have went into her there did
Speaker 3: the helpless thing, you know. Susan Rancourt, a sweet girl,
Speaker 3: not suspecting a thing, said she would help him. And
Speaker 3: of course this time, you know, his victim would not
Speaker 3: get away, and she made her way down there and
Speaker 3: they would have passed the exact same way between the
Speaker 3: library across the man made bridge. Then it seems across
Speaker 3: the man made bridge, which you can see today, even
Speaker 3: though the bridge is gone to pods gone, there's a
Speaker 3: newer cement that follows that trail. It's the same thing.
Speaker 3: And then they would have angled off to the left
Speaker 3: and kept walking about one hundred and fifty feet, walked
Speaker 3: under the trestle and then around it where Bundy's called
Speaker 3: his barks so and then of course, and what was
Speaker 3: so extremely weird? Kid Barnard said that it was his birthday,
Speaker 3: April seventeenth, by the way, and he had gone he
Speaker 3: had gone to another He had gone to Central Washington
Speaker 3: State College to visit his girlfriend and dround and he
Speaker 3: saw him a couple of times. But he saw Bundy
Speaker 3: a couple of times. I saw him up by the
Speaker 3: Arctic Circle, and that came out in the trailer of
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy. And then of course he had seen him
Speaker 3: earlier at the library, but he saw the strangest thing,
Speaker 3: you know. So he was with his girlfriend. By the
Speaker 3: time Bundy got rand Court and left the university, he
Speaker 3: was still there. Ken Bard was still there. He didn't
Speaker 3: leave until somewhat later. But he's on the highway on
Speaker 3: the way home and he looks up up at the hillside,
Speaker 3: but he sees a small set of round tail lights
Speaker 3: glowing up there. That's the tail lights of Bundy's car.
Speaker 3: He's got Rand called up there, and so you know,
Speaker 3: he'll never forget that. And a nice guy had a
Speaker 3: good long conversation with him on the phone back in
Speaker 3: twenty I think late twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen, but
Speaker 3: I guess I guess the early twenty fifteen. But in
Speaker 3: any event, it's again and you know this thing about
Speaker 3: Bundy and his ability to snatch people without anybody really
Speaker 3: seeing what was going on. And Bundy remarked that when
Speaker 3: he was talking to the show on the third person
Speaker 3: and he said, you know, like the last thing you
Speaker 3: wanted to do on the paraphrase that little bit is
Speaker 3: that the last thing you want to do is be
Speaker 3: seen by somebody walking somebody to your car. And but
Speaker 3: you know he was. But there were times also when
Speaker 3: he would lead somebody to an area and he said,
Speaker 3: for some reason, I just called it off. And he
Speaker 3: had done that in the area of where Georgianne Hawkins
Speaker 3: would disappear in you know, you know that summer on
Speaker 3: June at eleven. But yeah, and so it worried him.
Speaker 3: Later he said, well, if anybody says, you know, well,
Speaker 3: I saw this weird guy two weeks before chasing. He
Speaker 3: walked me to his car, he said, said, you know,
Speaker 3: he lives in the district or where he drives the volks.
Speaker 3: So it horrified him that because he let that one
Speaker 3: woman go, she could end up giving the Compson information
Speaker 3: on the hawk and abduction that could lead them right
Speaker 3: to him.
Speaker 6: You write about July fourteen, seventy four Lake Sammamish State
Speaker 6: Park east of Seattle, forty thousand people, and again, incredibly
Speaker 6: you can't write this in fiction. A DEA agent named
Speaker 6: Jerry Snyder is there with his family and witnesses a
Speaker 6: young girl named Janis Ott who's twenty three years old
Speaker 6: Jenison Ott. Why is this? Why is this a turning
Speaker 6: point as you write in this early investigation? Why is
Speaker 6: this different? What does he do tell us about this
Speaker 6: incredible event?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, now, yeah, and there's some additional stuff that
Speaker 3: goes with at that. They'll tell you that most of
Speaker 3: your listeners won't know, but not about Bundy, but about
Speaker 3: someone that was there. Interestingly enough, Bundy had been to
Speaker 3: the same lake a week earlier, and he actually into
Speaker 3: some friends there, so he knew the possibility of coming
Speaker 3: back to hunt for women at Lake Samamish, he could
Speaker 3: run into somebody, but I guess that didn't bother him.
Speaker 3: And why he chose to abduct two at La Samamish
Speaker 3: in one day, Chance Odd in the morning and Denise
Speaker 3: Mathlin in the afternoon is anyone's guest. I call it
Speaker 3: like a homicidal boast in the book. I do think
Speaker 3: he was really trying to make a statement. He felt
Speaker 3: like he was absolutely inventible. But what a place to
Speaker 3: hunt because the place was, as you say, forty thousand people.
Speaker 3: There were a lot of company picnics there. Even a
Speaker 3: police department was having a company picnic. But this just
Speaker 3: didn't bother ted Bundy. And so it turns out that
Speaker 3: you know, he is able to give Jennis Odd that morning.
Speaker 3: But what is interesting, Jerry Snyder, a DEA agent, is
Speaker 3: sitting back with his dog and he watches this. His family,
Speaker 3: his wife and kids are there, but they're kind of
Speaker 3: like farthered away from him because the kids were going
Speaker 3: to the water on the beach and he couldn't take
Speaker 3: the dog down that course. So he sat back. So
Speaker 3: he notices this guy coming down the right and he's
Speaker 3: looking at women, and he's stopping and looking and you know,
Speaker 3: and then he moved on. And then he makes his
Speaker 3: way to Janosid and he sees Janosid sitting there and
Speaker 3: they strike up a conversation. Now here's where something different
Speaker 3: comes in, because he sees he sees that Spider sees this.
Speaker 3: This man who came to the right didn't stop and
Speaker 3: talk to anybody else, but he stopped and talked to
Speaker 3: Ot and then she offered him to sit down, and
Speaker 3: they begin talking. I don't know how much Snyder hears,
Speaker 3: but there's a young girl the name Valiant right next
Speaker 3: to him, within a few feet of them, and she's
Speaker 3: fifteen years old, Sylvia Vallophant, and she hears most of
Speaker 3: the conversation between Bundy and aunt, and she reports on
Speaker 3: it later and Snyder backs it up. And so they
Speaker 3: have this conversation and Bundy is saying and he's got
Speaker 3: his arm and the flame and like he heard it,
Speaker 3: and he needed help with his sailboat. And she said, well,
Speaker 3: that means I get to ride in his sailboat. And
Speaker 3: he said, yeah, yeah, and I can teach you and
Speaker 3: said what about not buying? He said a little bit
Speaker 3: in the trunk and see people, you know you probably
Speaker 3: had to take the the you know, the one wheel
Speaker 3: off and but whatever he did, he got it in
Speaker 3: the trunk. And so these people solve it.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 3: Snyder would testifout all this, Sylvia valland the fifteen year
Speaker 3: old kid would test about all this, and there were
Speaker 3: some other people's people. That's that's all this too.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 3: When I was on the dock the HLN doc with
Speaker 3: which is like you know CNN, but and so it
Speaker 3: was a four part series. They interviewed Sylvia Valence. She's
Speaker 3: a grown woman now now she her name is Mexmer
Speaker 3: now Sylvia Mexa. Now she tells a story that's totally
Speaker 3: different from the written record. And I'm not saying it's
Speaker 3: not true. I'm not saying anything like that. What I
Speaker 3: am saying is she in the documentary has Bundy stopping
Speaker 3: and talking to her and trying to get her to
Speaker 3: go with him. And she said, I think it was
Speaker 3: like that Jaz overheard and she or something. But that's
Speaker 3: not what I've got. I've got to be a balanced
Speaker 3: statement a couple of days after Lake Samanash, I've got
Speaker 3: it in the file. She never said that Bundy talks
Speaker 3: to her. He goes straight over to odd Snyder, doesn't
Speaker 3: report that any that this man stopped with anybody and
Speaker 3: talk to anybody until he got to that. And then
Speaker 3: I have another report where they came and visited where
Speaker 3: Kathy mc chesney I believe it was, went and visited
Speaker 3: the fifteen year old Sylvia Valance and in November of
Speaker 3: that year, long after the thing, and she doesn't bring
Speaker 3: up that she talked to Buddy. Also, I don't know
Speaker 3: what happened there. I'm just saying that there is if
Speaker 3: anybody was watching that dog and knows the story and
Speaker 3: the reasonhy I'm bringing it up because I had a
Speaker 3: guy call me and say, look, this is that Ballant
Speaker 3: from the you know fifty Yeah, I say, yeah, that's her. Well,
Speaker 3: why why is she's saying she talked to Bundy because
Speaker 3: it's not on the record. I said, well, your guests
Speaker 3: as good as mine, because I got the testimony. I've
Speaker 3: got her signed statement. She never mentions Bundy talking to
Speaker 3: her ever, and so I don't know, you know why
Speaker 3: that happened. Uh, and nobody else seemed to have seen it,
Speaker 3: So maybe she knows something that we don't. Bundy said
Speaker 3: something we don't know. I don't know anything about it.
Speaker 3: But because that's out there now and people have said
Speaker 3: something to me about it, I'm just letting you know
Speaker 3: that it's not in the original record. I'm not saying
Speaker 3: it didn't happen. I'm saying that, you know, if Bundy
Speaker 3: did say anything to her, maybe it was a hall lord.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm just saying there's a discrepancy there
Speaker 3: and we don't know what's what. But yes, he ended up,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, you know, he got her off
Speaker 3: to agree with it to go. So she packed everything
Speaker 3: up and she went to the parking lot and a
Speaker 3: woman that he had tried to abduct, that even walked
Speaker 3: with him to his car, and she wanted to help
Speaker 3: with the post. She said, there's no boat, there's no trailer.
Speaker 3: He said, oh, it's that my parents house something. It's
Speaker 3: a cloth.
Speaker 6: Oh.
Speaker 3: She said, I can't leave. I can't leave. I can't
Speaker 3: my husband and my like my parents are coming, whatever
Speaker 3: our family's coming. I can't do it. He said, Oh,
Speaker 3: I'm very sorry. He walked back into I'm really sorry,
Speaker 3: he said, I guess I should have said something, and
Speaker 3: he was very polite. So as as as Aunt is
Speaker 3: walking her bike out with Bundy, she sees them and
Speaker 3: her thought was, I can't remember her name sits in
Speaker 3: the book. She goes, well, that didn't take him too
Speaker 3: long to find somebody else. And you know, she's really
Speaker 3: the last one to I guess pay any attention to
Speaker 3: out because she's with Bundy. But it's an interesting if
Speaker 3: it's a terrible abduction, it's a bold abduction. And again
Speaker 3: he would come back later that afternoon. Abductee Denise Stantlin
Speaker 3: actually give her willingly follow him to his car and
Speaker 3: obviously there's no ball, so he said he must have
Speaker 3: done the same thing. Is that my parents out in
Speaker 3: the support and then bam.
Speaker 6: And then you know, so in any event, yes, you
Speaker 6: write that there is now a description of this person
Speaker 6: who said his name was Ted, and so they have
Speaker 6: some you know, their first leads in terms of what
Speaker 6: this person would did in one day. And of course
Speaker 6: there were authorities were horrified that somebody could was even
Speaker 6: capable of something is you write would be unthinkable. You
Speaker 6: also write about at the same time this incredible character.
Speaker 6: Ted's girlfriend, Liz Kendall July sixth, seventy four tell us
Speaker 6: about how it comes to be that, even despite her
Speaker 6: care for Ted Bundy, she suspects him of these abductions
Speaker 6: and murders. Tell us how it seems to be that
Speaker 6: she thinks that, Yeah, well, you know, it's really interesting.
Speaker 3: You got to see Liz and some people. I don't
Speaker 3: know why some people are like this, but they are
Speaker 3: critical the Bundy family. They're critical of Liz. They just
Speaker 3: they don't say anything about Molly, her daughter I call
Speaker 3: Maltina in my book, but they you know, these people
Speaker 3: were victims too, and she very much loved Bundy and
Speaker 3: it was hard for her to come to the realization
Speaker 3: of what he was and so there would be some vacillating.
Speaker 3: But one thing about Liz, when she thought that there
Speaker 3: might be something wrong with Ted, there could be some
Speaker 3: issues there and maybe he could be the one, she
Speaker 3: did do the right th thing that she made a call.
Speaker 3: But what really precipitated the first call was after uh,
Speaker 3: you know, the authorities knew of an abductor out there,
Speaker 3: and they got some composite drawings and with lakes of
Speaker 3: Mannish and after, you know, after these girls have gone Missy,
Speaker 3: she has one of her co workers one morning come
Speaker 3: up to her some guys. I think he was trying
Speaker 3: to make a joke and be funny, but he said,
Speaker 3: look at this composite drawing, Liz, and it's got Look.
Speaker 3: They're looking for a Ted who drives a Volkswagen, and
Speaker 3: he is doesn't this guy kind of look like your Ted?
Speaker 3: Of course, I'm sure they laughed. He thought it was funny.
Speaker 3: He probably didn't even suspect from Ted Bundy, her boyfriend,
Speaker 3: of being involved in it. But that did bother her.
Speaker 3: And of course, you know, Bundy had done something that
Speaker 3: had disturbed her a bit. She noticed that by nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy four, his sexual excitement with her had started to
Speaker 3: wane because some of his sexual desires had changed, and
Speaker 3: now he wanted to tire her up, and he wanted
Speaker 3: to have sexual I wanted to have an intercourse, and
Speaker 3: she said no to that. She allowed him to be
Speaker 3: to tire up on a couple occasions. She remarked, and
Speaker 3: I have this in the new edition. I quote, I
Speaker 3: quote the prosecutor who had given an interview with the
Speaker 3: Atlantic Journal Constitution newspaper, and he talks about how Liz
Speaker 3: was allowing him to like just choke her, you know
Speaker 3: a little bit, because he wanted to do that. And
Speaker 3: she said that, and so Pester said Dave Yoakam, he
Speaker 3: said it frightened her because she tried to get him.
Speaker 3: It looked like he wasn't there. And when she tried
Speaker 3: to get him to stop, he wouldn't come too right away.
Speaker 3: And he was in this altered state of murder, fantasizing,
Speaker 3: not wanting to kill her, but definitely had passed from
Speaker 3: this world into that internal world and it was real different.
Speaker 3: So she she put a stop to all that. But
Speaker 3: I also point out which is interesting if you want
Speaker 3: to look at the psychology of Bundy and the things
Speaker 3: that would happen to him and others when they go
Speaker 3: into these altered states of murder. When they took a
Speaker 3: raft trip down the Yakima on a beautiful day, he
Speaker 3: was fine. That morning. They get in the Yakama, I mean,
Speaker 3: I mean they get in the rafting, they're going down
Speaker 3: the river. They already have plans to have lunch. They
Speaker 3: but somewhere through the before they have lunch on and
Speaker 3: their rafting, he starts to change, he starts to become moody,
Speaker 3: he starts to become quiet, and uh, I think it's
Speaker 3: because he was commuting with someone, that he was in
Speaker 3: the geographical area close to where he had kidnapped and
Speaker 3: murdered Susan Rancourt, So that could have been all his mind.
Speaker 3: That he was definitely passing into a different state of mind.
Speaker 3: And I think that comes from kind of fantasizing. You know,
Speaker 3: he's trying to look at Liz and talk, but he's
Speaker 3: also thinking about this and stuff is rising up. So
Speaker 3: they stop and have lunch. He's still quiet, but you know,
Speaker 3: at least they're together. They're having lunch, and then they
Speaker 3: get back in the raft and they're going down to
Speaker 3: the yakama, and I think her book says before like
Speaker 3: an hour is out, for no reason, he pushes her
Speaker 3: off into the into the yakama. So she's you know,
Speaker 3: it's all very sudden, and she comes up as she
Speaker 3: gasped me for breath. She said, when I looked at him,
Speaker 3: his face was blank. It's like he wasn't there, absolutely blank.
Speaker 3: That was the monster being revealed. That was Bundy in
Speaker 3: that altered state of murder and so I'm just you
Speaker 3: could occasionally see things like this, and I really know
Speaker 3: I remember the one. I can't remember if it's Jane
Speaker 3: Curtis or the Deolibel woman, but I had to check
Speaker 3: my book. But one of the women noticed that when
Speaker 3: she was offering help to Bundy at at CWSC at
Speaker 3: the Bullying Library area during the afternoon. His eyes looked fine.
Speaker 3: But as they traveled down the you know that walkway,
Speaker 3: and they go on that bridge and they're heading across them,
Speaker 3: and they're starting to go left to his car somewhere
Speaker 3: in there. For some reason, she turns it look sett
Speaker 3: him and his eyes looked very weird, and she noticed
Speaker 3: the difference and they were not that way when she
Speaker 3: first saw him. And I know that he's going into
Speaker 3: that altered state. So I asked Al Carlisle about that,
Speaker 3: and Al said, well, you know, there are a lot
Speaker 3: of testimonies from women who say that the eyes of
Speaker 3: these men change change like this right before they were attacked.
Speaker 3: He wasn't really talking about Bundy in this case, just
Speaker 3: other things that other case studies he knew of. And
Speaker 3: he said, I think it's a neural transmitter, a temporary
Speaker 3: neural transmitter thing that does this, and so you can
Speaker 3: see that while Bundy is making himself presentable to her,
Speaker 3: and he's up in front of the library or a
Speaker 3: little bit on the side of it wherever he was
Speaker 3: by the bicycle ricks. They said, at some point he
Speaker 3: doesn't know that he's going to have her, but he's trying,
Speaker 3: and his eyes are clear. And then as he's walking
Speaker 3: down and he's sensing he's going to have her, that
Speaker 3: altered state starts to come to the surface. There it is,
Speaker 3: and it's resonating in his eyes. That's not a whole
Speaker 3: lot different from what Lives encountered. But Lisen's encounter was
Speaker 3: even farther ahead in that altered state. Because he's choking her,
Speaker 3: she can't bring him too for a second. And when
Speaker 3: he pushes her out of the boat, i mean the
Speaker 3: raft and she comes out of the water, his face
Speaker 3: is blank. He's not there, and she knows it, and
Speaker 3: it took him a second to come back to himself
Speaker 3: apparently pull her in the boat. And then then of
Speaker 3: course Bundy tries to blow it off. She was very
Speaker 3: upset with him doing that, which is menvil. He said, Oh,
Speaker 3: it was just a joke. See it wasn't a joke,
Speaker 3: and so you got to ask herself. Did Bundy question
Speaker 3: himself at that point, thinking I'm having it a problem
Speaker 3: controlling this. He may have done that, but these things
Speaker 3: have a life of their own, and as you know,
Speaker 3: as as the time rolled on and the murders went on,
Speaker 3: you can see where Bundy had a harder time controlling,
Speaker 3: you know, some of these things. It's really an interesting
Speaker 3: thing to look at.
Speaker 6: M h. At around the same time, too, he has
Speaker 6: plans in six weeks Liz knows about this, that he'd
Speaker 6: be moving to Salt Lake City to attend law school.
Speaker 6: And now Bob Keppel, Detective Robert Keppel now has Ted
Speaker 6: Bundy on a list. And this is the person that
Speaker 6: that also communicated with Liz as well when she spoke
Speaker 6: to police. But because of the people that had reported
Speaker 6: Ted and and because of the description accomposite, he is
Speaker 6: now finally he's on a list of one hundred people.
Speaker 6: He's on a suspect. He's on a suspect list of
Speaker 6: one hundred people. But as you write, everything else about
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy does not does not produce any kind of suspicion,
Speaker 6: does it, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting thing because you know, you don't
Speaker 3: look at a person like Bundy. I mean, the first
Speaker 3: time I heard of Ted Bundy was after his first
Speaker 3: escape in Colorado and then he was recaptured, and oh
Speaker 3: that's good. But that was the first I heard of
Speaker 3: this man. But what they said during the CBS news
Speaker 3: report that I heard, they said he's a former law student.
Speaker 3: And I said to myself, and of course he's on
Speaker 3: trial and there for the attempted or the kidnapping and
Speaker 3: murder of Karen Campbell, but he was suspective of others
Speaker 3: and Martin and states that was the first I ever
Speaker 3: heard of the man. But my first question was this,
Speaker 3: how on earth does a law student come under this
Speaker 3: kind of suspicion. So people that saw Bundy knew Bundy,
Speaker 3: and uh, you know, just didn't look like he could
Speaker 3: be the man because here he is a college graduate,
Speaker 3: a law student. He went to the law school for
Speaker 3: the first semester. Uh uh at the at huge in
Speaker 3: Sound Huget Sound College. He was a political campaigner. He'd
Speaker 3: been written about in the newspaper. He knew Richard Larson,
Speaker 3: who was worked for the Seattle Times. Larson had interviewed him.
Speaker 3: I mean he didn't look like the man that would
Speaker 3: do this. So yeah, his name popped up, and there
Speaker 3: was three different people. Liz was one, the professor. Now
Speaker 3: the what was his name, his assistant professor I think
Speaker 3: made the call, but uh, his name is Katzenbaum. But
Speaker 3: but but the actual actual professor, it's in the book.
Speaker 3: It's so it's funny. He or his office made a
Speaker 3: call and said, look, the professor said, I have a
Speaker 3: weird guy in my class who drives like a nineteen
Speaker 3: sixty eight Bolkswagen. I think he would be worth checking out.
Speaker 3: His name is Dad and Bundy, so that lives in
Speaker 3: another source. All led to him being put on this
Speaker 3: suspects list of the top one hundred, and they figured
Speaker 3: that they could go to that one hundred in about
Speaker 3: a year. But nobody that really looked at Bundy. There
Speaker 3: was nothing there that fell up a red flag where
Speaker 3: they said, oh, you know, we need to look at
Speaker 3: him closer. What happened was is that as Bundy was
Speaker 3: coming to the top of that list, he was the
Speaker 3: next man to be looked at. It happened that it
Speaker 3: didn't happen before nineteen seventy five. While Bundy was in
Speaker 3: in Utah, and when Bundy came on their radar there,
Speaker 3: they made an inquiry. The sault like made an inquiry.
Speaker 3: In fact, it was actually been Forbes. Terry Thompson's partner
Speaker 3: called up there and said, look, we got this guy
Speaker 3: named Buddy down here and he's being accused of some things.
Speaker 3: And Bundy's final had just come to the top. He
Speaker 3: was the next person there to be looked at in
Speaker 3: a far more closer manner. And it's almost like I
Speaker 3: think I say in the book, like the gods of
Speaker 3: chance and circumstance, we're saying that that moment, here's your
Speaker 3: killer of women, come get him. But it was a
Speaker 3: very very odd thing that occurred, and yeah, it was
Speaker 3: certainly a need occurrence.
Speaker 6: Kevin, I want to thank you very much for coming
Speaker 6: on and talking about the Bundy Murders. A Comprehensive History.
Speaker 6: But for those people that have been listening now we
Speaker 6: know that it necessitates that we have a second part
Speaker 6: of this Bundye Murders. So next week and it'll be announced.
Speaker 6: People just check their feed. The Bundy Murders with Kevin M. Sullivan.
Speaker 6: A Comprehensive History, second Edition, Part two. So thank you
Speaker 6: very much, Kevin Sullivan, and we will talk to you
Speaker 6: next week for the Kid, part two of the Bundy murders.
Speaker 3: I'll look forward to it. Thank you, Dan, thank you,
Speaker 3: good night, Kay