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<v Speaker 1>Who is Tom Bombadil. In all of the Middle Earth legendarium,

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<v Speaker 1>there is no other figure as puzzling and strange. From

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<v Speaker 1>his interactions with Old Man Willow to his relationship with

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<v Speaker 1>the One Ring, Tom proves he is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most powerful beings in Middle Earth. But where did he

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<v Speaker 1>come from and what is his significance for the larger story?

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<v Speaker 1>Join us as we explore the Bombadil Enigma. The Tolkien Road,

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<v Speaker 1>Episode two sixteen, The Bombadil Enigma, An interview with Keith Matheson. Hello, everyone,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to The Tolkien Road Episode two sixteen. Greta, Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, John? I'm I'm super fantastic. How are you?

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<v Speaker 1>I am doing pretty darn well.

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<v Speaker 2>That's good.

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<v Speaker 1>Excited for another amazing episode of The Tolkien Road, The

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<v Speaker 1>podcast for Tolkien lovers, ravenous Tolkien fan all you tolkienkers.

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<v Speaker 2>No, we're not gonna do that again. We're not doing

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<v Speaker 2>that again.

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<v Speaker 1>That's my thing. This is the podcast for Tolkien lovers

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<v Speaker 1>right here, So all you people who are like, oh yeah, Tolkien,

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<v Speaker 1>I like me a Tolkien story every now and then.

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<v Speaker 3>M M.

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<v Speaker 1>You gotta be utterly devoted, slavishly devoted to Tolkien to

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<v Speaker 1>be worthy of listening to this podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, you can stop playing down now we're we've established

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that you're a Tolkien nerd. But we welcome

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<v Speaker 2>all here. All are welcome.

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<v Speaker 1>Well you okay, you know I never should have fired

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<v Speaker 1>you for this job. I can't get rid of you.

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<v Speaker 2>You can fire me anytime.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's impossible. People would stop listening.

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<v Speaker 2>They would stop listening. You know, you'd be nothing without me. No, true?

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe Okay, on this episode we are. On this episode,

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<v Speaker 1>we were joined by Keith Matheson. Earlier this year, Keith

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<v Speaker 1>published an article on his blog entitled The bombadill Enigma.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a fascinating exploration of what we know about Tom Bombadil,

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<v Speaker 1>and Keith's theory on the meaning of Tom Bombadil is

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<v Speaker 1>one we think you'll find very interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>I found it very interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean honestly, like you know, there I enjoy. I enjoy

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<v Speaker 2>being the other half of this podcast. I really do.

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<v Speaker 2>But there are yes, I stand up for the tolkienkers

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<v Speaker 2>out there. You're welcome. I will say that that. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there are some episodes that you know, like they're fine,

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<v Speaker 2>they're good, like it was you know, not a complete

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<v Speaker 2>waste of my time to be a part of it.

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<v Speaker 2>But this episode, like y'all have to listen so good.

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<v Speaker 2>Tom Bombadil is like he's fascinating in so many ways,

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<v Speaker 2>and Keith knows what he's talking about. H. So y'all

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<v Speaker 2>best tune in.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, Yeah it was. We pre recorded the interview. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a very It was a highly highly enjoyable discussion Keith.

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<v Speaker 1>We really enjoyed h chatting with Keith, and we think

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<v Speaker 1>you'll enjoy it too.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Special thanks to this episode's executive producer, Caitlin of Ta

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<v Speaker 1>with Tolkien, and a shout out to all of our

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<v Speaker 1>amazing patrons. Thank you all so much for supporting this show.

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<v Speaker 1>If you are not a patron, you should become a patron.

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<v Speaker 1>Support us on Patreon. Becoming a patron lets you support

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<v Speaker 1>the show in a tangible way and lands you some

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<v Speaker 1>awesome perks like early access to new episodes and more.

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<v Speaker 1>Head on over to patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road

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<v Speaker 1>to find out the deats, and you can also support

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<v Speaker 1>us by an episode via tip jar. You can go

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<v Speaker 1>to the web. You can go to tolkieno dot com

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<v Speaker 1>find the episode that you really enjoyed and leave a

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<v Speaker 1>tip for that particular episode. And then, last but not least,

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<v Speaker 1>support us by subscribing, rating, and reviewing on iTunes all

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<v Speaker 1>three of those things, right, hit that subscribe button, rate

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<v Speaker 1>us and review us or whatever you listen if you're

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<v Speaker 1>listening on Spotify, do the equivalent over there on Spotify. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever platform you listen on, Subscribe, rate, and review all

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<v Speaker 1>three of those things. You know, when you go all

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<v Speaker 1>out and you go and you give that, you give

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<v Speaker 1>that five stars, and then you give us that glowing

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<v Speaker 1>review that tells that tells the the AI, the algorithms

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<v Speaker 1>that this is a worthy podcast, so which we are,

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<v Speaker 1>which we are of course. So yeah, all right, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, not a lot in the world of Tolkien

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<v Speaker 1>news as of late, so maybe that's good. Well, I

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<v Speaker 1>think we just you know, a couple episodes we probably

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<v Speaker 1>single handedly convinced Latron Prime to you know, maybe rethink

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<v Speaker 1>it all again. And you know, so I'm sure they're

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<v Speaker 1>just back to the drawing board.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure. So, yeah, they're too busy to anything out there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's most likely explanations. All right, Okay, Greta, let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the Bombadil enigma shall we do it? Yes, We're

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<v Speaker 1>joined on this episode by Keith Matheson. A few months ago,

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<v Speaker 1>Keith sent me an article he had written on Tom Bombadil,

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<v Speaker 1>and I thought it was such a well done exploration

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<v Speaker 1>of the character and the controversy surrounding him, that I

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<v Speaker 1>invited Keith to join us for an episode of The

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<v Speaker 1>Tolkien Road. Keith, welcome, Thank you, nice to have you here.

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<v Speaker 2>Gus, thanks for being here.

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<v Speaker 1>So Keith, tell us a little bit about yourself.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm I was born and raised in Texas. I've

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<v Speaker 3>been in Florida since nineteen ninety two, the last ten

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<v Speaker 3>years teaching the Little Christian College in Central Florida. Have

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<v Speaker 3>a wife, an adult daughter with a granddaughter of a

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<v Speaker 3>son nineteen in college. I'm a Texan and a exile basically.

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<v Speaker 1>Gotcha, gotcha.

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<v Speaker 2>I've heard that you can take the Textan out of Texas,

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<v Speaker 2>but you can't take the Texas out of the Texan

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<v Speaker 2>we have. We have a lot of friends from Texas

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<v Speaker 2>and this just sticks.

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<v Speaker 1>With them absolutely absolutely. Well, tell us about your journey

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<v Speaker 1>as a Tolkien fan. We always whenever we have anybody on,

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<v Speaker 1>we always want to hear you know, before we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the substance of why we're having them on. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we we we're a fan. We're really a fan focused

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<v Speaker 1>podcast first and foremost, and you know ravenus fans. So

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<v Speaker 1>I think I can tell from some of the things

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<v Speaker 1>you know for this article and from some of the

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<v Speaker 1>other things that you've written, that you you seem to

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<v Speaker 1>be a pretty fit that profile pretty well of being

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<v Speaker 1>a ravenus Tolkien fan. So tell us about your your

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<v Speaker 1>journey as a Tolkien fan.

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<v Speaker 3>Keith, I am a Ravenus fan. I was a late

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<v Speaker 3>comer to Tolkien. We didn't have a lot of books

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<v Speaker 3>in my house growing up, but we had we had

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<v Speaker 3>an encyclopedia set, and for some reason, we had the

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<v Speaker 3>complete work to Edgar Allen Poe. So I was either

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<v Speaker 3>reading the encyclopedia articles or giving myself nightmares. I first

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<v Speaker 3>encountered Tolkien's writings. I remember walking through bookstores back when

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<v Speaker 3>I was a teenager and young adult and seeing Tulkien

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<v Speaker 3>in the section and seeing that title The Lord of

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<v Speaker 3>the Rings. But for some reason, it never clicked to

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<v Speaker 3>me that I should read that. And then I don't

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<v Speaker 3>remember why I first picked that book up, but I

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<v Speaker 3>brought The Lord of that Rings home one day and

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<v Speaker 3>decided I wanted to read this and just started reading

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<v Speaker 3>it and quickly fell in love with it, and almost

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<v Speaker 3>immediately re read the whole thing. And I just remember

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<v Speaker 3>this book hitting me harder than almost any other fiction

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<v Speaker 3>book did. It really hit me in the heart. And

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<v Speaker 3>I just fell in love with it and began reading

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<v Speaker 3>more and more in Tolkien's works, and finally I read

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<v Speaker 3>The Hobbit for the first time as an adult. Came

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<v Speaker 3>to that after The Lord of the Rings on the

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<v Speaker 3>Filmarellion stard to look at other smaller works of Tolkien.

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<v Speaker 3>Just got more and more involved. And then the movies,

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<v Speaker 3>of course came out in the e in two thousand

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<v Speaker 3>and one or so, I think that was the first

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<v Speaker 3>one two thousand and one, and I went and saw

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<v Speaker 3>those have a love hate relationship with them.

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<v Speaker 1>And then.

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<v Speaker 3>A few years ago I had the opportunity the students petition,

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<v Speaker 3>since I knew what a rabid Tolkien fan I was.

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<v Speaker 3>The students at my little college petition the administration can

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<v Speaker 3>if they could have a Tolkien class, and so I

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<v Speaker 3>was asked to teach them their great works in Tolkien.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm not a Tolkien scholar, but it was just

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<v Speaker 3>basically a big classroom of pains with me leading the

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<v Speaker 3>fan discussion. And then I was asked again this year

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<v Speaker 3>if I would do it. So I'm in the middle

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<v Speaker 3>of that class again this semester and learned a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit more about it. But I've just I fell in

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<v Speaker 3>love with Tolkien maybe twenty years ago, I think I

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<v Speaker 3>encountered to me in my late twenties or early thirties,

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<v Speaker 3>have just been pursuing reading secondary sources, finally started working

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<v Speaker 3>on the history of Middle Earists and things like that,

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<v Speaker 3>and yeah, just a little bit more and more every

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<v Speaker 3>time I read it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, if you're not a if you're not a Tolkien scholar, Keith,

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<v Speaker 1>and you sure do you sure do a good job

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<v Speaker 1>of faking it. So yeah, yeah, well, I I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like that's how a lot of you know, a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like there's a lot of people who are

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<v Speaker 1>maybe like you know, I know. In my case, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I've written two books on Tolkien, and but

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<v Speaker 1>I never can feel like I'm worthy of calling myself

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<v Speaker 1>a Tolkien scholar because it just seems like no nobody

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<v Speaker 1>really matches up to that that description. I think it

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<v Speaker 1>feels like being like the true sense of being like

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<v Speaker 1>a scholar, in the sense of like if you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to be you're more like just a constant student, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just trying to better learn what he was all about

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<v Speaker 1>and what he wrote.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I when I say Tolkien scholar, I'm the people

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<v Speaker 3>in my mind where people like Tom Shippy and Wayne

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<v Speaker 3>Hammond and yeah, Christina Skull.

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<v Speaker 1>There are definitely a few. There are definitely a few

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<v Speaker 1>that are you know of a of a higher tier

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<v Speaker 1>for sure. So but but yeah, like I said, you

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<v Speaker 1>do a based on based on just this article alone,

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<v Speaker 1>you do a pretty a pretty good job of faking it.

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<v Speaker 1>So well, uh great, that's uh, that's interesting. So you

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<v Speaker 1>Lord of the Rings was first for you, and then

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<v Speaker 1>and then the Hobbit sometime later, and then and then

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<v Speaker 1>the silm Rellion and all other things. Yeah, so very cool, cool,

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<v Speaker 1>all right, Well, Keith, what inspired this article on Tom Bombadil.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the first time I read Lord of the Rings,

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<v Speaker 3>Tom Bombadil just stood out as odd. It was just

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<v Speaker 3>a really really odd thing. Even that it wasn't very

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<v Speaker 3>far into the book. But when you run into him,

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<v Speaker 3>he just he destrikes you as an unusual character. And

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<v Speaker 3>then it moves back into this deep medieval type fantasy

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<v Speaker 3>at the end, and there's nothing else quite like him

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<v Speaker 3>in that whole book. And so I just I became

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<v Speaker 3>intrigued by him the first time I read the book,

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<v Speaker 3>and every time I read it, I was more and

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<v Speaker 3>more intrigued. And the more I learned about Middle Earth

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<v Speaker 3>and the whole the all the creatures and types of

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<v Speaker 3>beings that exist in Middle Earth, the questions started to

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<v Speaker 3>rise in my mind what is he? And what is he?

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<v Speaker 3>And that's when I started doing searches for articles online

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<v Speaker 3>and elsewhere to see has anybody else thought about this?

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<v Speaker 3>And I just ran across so many theories about who

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<v Speaker 3>and what he was. And it's just been kind of

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<v Speaker 3>a hobby, I guess you would call it. It's it's

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<v Speaker 3>like a fun little mystery to puzzle to.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a subcategory of Tolkien scholarship. Is Bombadolology, I

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<v Speaker 1>think so?

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<v Speaker 3>And so I've been just fascinated with all the various

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<v Speaker 3>theory is out there for the last two decades and

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<v Speaker 3>more recently when I prepared to write this. What what

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<v Speaker 3>caused me to write this was for a long time,

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<v Speaker 3>I was just interested in this and I had noticed

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<v Speaker 3>certain things, and I know we'll talk about that a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit more, but I guess it was about six

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<v Speaker 3>months ago something clicked and it hit me that all

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<v Speaker 3>these pieces started to come together when I ran across

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<v Speaker 3>this one little item that in my mind turned a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of circumstantial evidence into potentially something more.

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<v Speaker 1>Significant, very interesting. Yeah, well, well let's let's let's dive

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<v Speaker 1>into your article. Your article is entitled let's see I

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<v Speaker 1>had it pulled out. There we go, the Bombadilla Enigma.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it was the Bombadilla Enigma, and then I

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<v Speaker 1>saw something else. So yeah, we're really focused on this character,

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<v Speaker 1>Tom Bombadil and the enigma. I can't think of a

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<v Speaker 1>I can't think of a character in all of Tolkien

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<v Speaker 1>and all of Tolkien Dumb and all of Middle Earth,

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<v Speaker 1>the Middle Earth legendarium, who is more more enigmatic than

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<v Speaker 1>Tom Bombadil, you know, Tom Bombadil is. And so in

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<v Speaker 1>this article you're exploring that. You warn at the beginning

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<v Speaker 1>that you're gonna be engaging in some moderate to severe Tolkien.

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<v Speaker 1>Nerdidis here. So uh, it's so this but this is

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<v Speaker 1>the place for some you know, for the severe form

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<v Speaker 1>of Tolkien. Nerdidis. You know for sure, So all of

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<v Speaker 1>that is welcome here. So, you know, you start out

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<v Speaker 1>by introducing, you know, this figure of Tom Bombadil. And

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<v Speaker 1>for anyone who's read The Lord of the Rings, like

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<v Speaker 1>you said, you know, we're gonna be We're gonna be

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<v Speaker 1>familiar with this character. Maybe some people have latched onto

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<v Speaker 1>him as more mysterious than others people. He tends to

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<v Speaker 1>be a character that everybody who likes Tolkien or anybody

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<v Speaker 1>who reads The Lord of the Rings has a strong

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<v Speaker 1>opinion on. Some people are just like, don't even know

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<v Speaker 1>why those three chapters are in there at all. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know some you know, some people probably like you

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<v Speaker 1>and me and Greta, are like, well, why didn't Peter

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<v Speaker 1>Why didn't Peter Jackson include Tom Bombadil in in the

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<v Speaker 1>movies at all. It's like a huge problem with you know,

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<v Speaker 1>with his version of fellowship. So you have this big

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<v Speaker 1>spectrum of people when it comes to, you know, opinions

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<v Speaker 1>of Tom Bombadil. But he is truly an enigmatic and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, just trying to trying to figure out where

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<v Speaker 1>he comes from, who he is. There's a lot going

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<v Speaker 1>on here, and so there's been a lot of a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of controversy about him. What do we know from

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<v Speaker 1>the text Keith about Tom, Like, what are some of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that that he says about himself? What are

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<v Speaker 1>some of the things that the text says about him

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<v Speaker 1>that gold Goldberry says about him? And we also got

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<v Speaker 1>to just talk about Goldberry as a figure as well.

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<v Speaker 2>And what an awesome name too. I mean, there's this

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<v Speaker 2>they're fantastic character.

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<v Speaker 3>Both of them are in the ratic. You really have

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<v Speaker 3>to treat the two together. I think the first thing

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<v Speaker 3>that's noticeable about Tom is the singing. That's the first

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<v Speaker 3>thing that seems to strike you when they first encounter him,

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<v Speaker 3>that they hear him before they see him, and they

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<v Speaker 3>hear this singing and it's the somewhat nonsensical type of song.

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<v Speaker 3>It reminds me a lot of the elves songs the

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<v Speaker 3>first time you encounter them in the Hobbit Trolo Alali

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<v Speaker 3>down in the Valley, type of silly syllables, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>throughout the dealings with Tom. In the initial encounter he's

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<v Speaker 3>either singing or even when he's speaking, it's a very rhythmic,

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<v Speaker 3>almost song like prose when he's speaking, but he has

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<v Speaker 3>a strange combination of characteristics. His height is described somewhere between.

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<v Speaker 3>It's about the size of a dwarf, I think, because

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<v Speaker 3>he's taller than a Hobbit shorter than an so he's

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<v Speaker 3>dwarf sized. His clothing is just unusual because of the

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<v Speaker 3>bright colors. He has a feather in his cap like

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<v Speaker 3>Hobbit sheriffs, and you know whether that's significant or not,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know. But he sings like the elves, the

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<v Speaker 3>silly touch songs in the Hobbit things. He has powers

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<v Speaker 3>that are really what is the most enigmatic thing about him,

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<v Speaker 3>because despite all of the strangeness, it's the effect or

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<v Speaker 3>non effect of the ring on him that really strikes

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<v Speaker 3>most readers. This ring. Gandalf doesn't even want to touch it.

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<v Speaker 3>He doesn't want anything to do with it. We know

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<v Speaker 3>he's very powerful. Gladrial same issue. Tom is playing with

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00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:43.840
<v Speaker 3>this thing like it's a toy. Puts it on his finger,

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<v Speaker 3>he doesn't disappear. When Frodo puts it on, he can

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00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:50.799
<v Speaker 3>still see proto it doesn't affect that. And so I

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00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.639
<v Speaker 3>think that's what really gets people's interests started in him.

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<v Speaker 3>Is the is the influence or lack of influence of

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<v Speaker 3>that ring such a hu thing in this whole story,

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<v Speaker 3>influencing everybody else. And then they start to the hobbits

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<v Speaker 3>start to ask these questions. Proto asked Goldberry who is he?

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<v Speaker 3>He is? And sometimes I when I'm reading that, I

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<v Speaker 3>hear him saying, who is Tom Bombadil? And he is,

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00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.480
<v Speaker 3>but that that answer has caused people to write his

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00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.039
<v Speaker 3>questions about is he deity of some kind?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and just having like a similarity to like in

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<v Speaker 1>in scriptural terms, I am who am as the you

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<v Speaker 1>know what, how God refers to himself and in the

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<v Speaker 1>Book of Exodus.

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<v Speaker 3>Right that Exodus passage, I am has That's caused some

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<v Speaker 3>people to latch onto that. And then she's repeats He's master,

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<v Speaker 3>Woodwater and Hill, He's master, He's master. And then of

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<v Speaker 3>course when when Frodo asks who he is, he one

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<v Speaker 3>of the most enigmatic answers in the whole thing. Who

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<v Speaker 3>are you master? Don't you know my name yet? That's

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00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:09.720
<v Speaker 3>the only answer? Tell me who are you?

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<v Speaker 1>Alone?

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<v Speaker 3>Yourself and name? Listen, I'm still wrestling with what he's

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<v Speaker 3>getting at. Yeah, response, he starts to describe himself, and

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<v Speaker 3>he takes himself back to the very origins of Middle

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<v Speaker 3>Earth in his description of what he's seen and experienced.

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<v Speaker 3>So of course then at the Council of Elrond gammed

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<v Speaker 3>off and all the elves have commidents about him. But

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<v Speaker 3>his characteristics are all over the place, something from looking

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<v Speaker 3>like a hobbit to being the size of the door,

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<v Speaker 3>singing like an elf. And then all these enigmatic words

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<v Speaker 3>by him and about him.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and the and the very you know, curious curious

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<v Speaker 2>responses by himself and Goldberry. I mean, it just deepens

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<v Speaker 2>the mystery. Yeah, you know, Keith, as I was listening

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<v Speaker 2>to you speak, that the one word that that popped

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<v Speaker 2>into my head that I felt like was really described

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<v Speaker 2>Tom Mambadil was otherworldly, like he just he doesn't seem

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00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.400
<v Speaker 2>to fit in Middle Earth, Like he just he's like

336
00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:14.440
<v Speaker 2>above it, in it, but he's not, like he's not

337
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.319
<v Speaker 2>he's not. He's just kind of of another world, like

338
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.680
<v Speaker 2>he's just you know, it's like he's in it, but

339
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.079
<v Speaker 2>he's not in it, Like you know, he fits, but

340
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:25.799
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't it.

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00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.119
<v Speaker 1>And as I was reading it, you know, I was

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00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.039
<v Speaker 1>we talked about Tom, but and then we kind of

343
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<v Speaker 1>laughingly just a few minutes ago referred to Goldberry and

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<v Speaker 1>the enigma that she is as well alongside him, And

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<v Speaker 1>then you have old Man Willow, right, and the enigma

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<v Speaker 1>that Old Man Willow is in the Old Forest, and

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<v Speaker 1>the interaction between Tom and Old Man Willow, and and

348
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:51.839
<v Speaker 1>then you just have the Old Forest all by itself

349
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<v Speaker 1>at like it is the place where they all, they

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00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.240
<v Speaker 1>all seem to inhabit. It's almost like this is some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of special special place, you know, within within the

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00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.119
<v Speaker 1>larger world of Middle Earth, that it's some kind of

353
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<v Speaker 1>like an island, like it's like strange Garden of Eden

354
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:10.079
<v Speaker 1>or something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, not quite.

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<v Speaker 1>Not not exactly paradise, but you know, like but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like a maybe kind of twisted paradise or something. I

358
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<v Speaker 1>don't know, but uh, I.

359
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<v Speaker 3>Think people like Joseph Pearce have picked up on that. Yeah,

360
00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:31.000
<v Speaker 3>when he connects Bombadilla and Goldberry was unfallen.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, would you explain why the Ring doesn't have an

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<v Speaker 2>effect on him? Right? I mean, they're they're immune to

363
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<v Speaker 2>the effects of of fallen man of the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the results of the fall. So there's yeah, there's yeah.

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00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.759
<v Speaker 1>I mean the Ring is is certainly the most startling,

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<v Speaker 1>like his his relationship with the ring is is certainly

367
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:59.440
<v Speaker 1>the most startling thing about him, the thing that stands out,

368
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<v Speaker 1>uh the most. And then you have because nobody, nobody

369
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:09.200
<v Speaker 1>has that reaction to the ring within within the whole story.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you can argue that some of the you know,

371
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<v Speaker 1>maybe the eagles wood or the ense wood or something

372
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.880
<v Speaker 1>like that, but but they never it never really comes

373
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<v Speaker 1>up for them, like it never really comes up for those,

374
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<v Speaker 1>you know, for those types of beings. But yeah, Tom

375
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<v Speaker 1>is just there's no effect, you know, it's it does

376
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.799
<v Speaker 1>not it's not even a it's not even a scary

377
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:32.799
<v Speaker 1>thing for him. It's just kind of like this is

378
00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:35.680
<v Speaker 1>nothing to me, you know, for everybody else that's everything.

379
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:39.960
<v Speaker 1>So uh yeah, and at the Council of elrond Is

380
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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned, he's also you know, he's given some interesting

381
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:47.240
<v Speaker 1>names as well. Uh you mentioned in your article he's

382
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.319
<v Speaker 1>known at For example, he's called by the elves as

383
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:53.839
<v Speaker 1>yottawayne ben Adaar, meaning oldest and fatherless, which is also

384
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:55.599
<v Speaker 1>one of those names that just leads you to think,

385
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.880
<v Speaker 1>like who is this right?

386
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:03.039
<v Speaker 3>You know, especially it becomes even more curious when you

387
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.680
<v Speaker 3>run into tree Beard and he's calling himself the oldest

388
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:09.960
<v Speaker 3>living thing and others are saying that about world, who's

389
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:11.319
<v Speaker 3>the oldest.

390
00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, and then and speaking of tree Beard because of

391
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:22.079
<v Speaker 1>the effect that that makes me think of the effect

392
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.759
<v Speaker 1>that Tom has on old Man Willow right. And you know,

393
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.279
<v Speaker 1>old Man willow seeming to be this you know tree

394
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:35.880
<v Speaker 1>that is somehow animated right in a more human like way.

395
00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:37.680
<v Speaker 1>It seems to have more of a personality than your

396
00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:39.559
<v Speaker 1>average tree. And that of course makes us think of

397
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:44.200
<v Speaker 1>the ends, and and so you know, is there some

398
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of relationship between them? And then Tom Bombadil has

399
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:49.079
<v Speaker 1>that power over old Man Willow Right. He has the

400
00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:51.039
<v Speaker 1>power to basically command Old Man willow.

401
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.359
<v Speaker 3>I haven't seen anybody write. I'm sure somebody has, but

402
00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:00.480
<v Speaker 3>I haven't run across anybody writing anything substantive relating horizing

403
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:05.160
<v Speaker 3>that maybe Tom is related to the ants in some way,

404
00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:07.400
<v Speaker 3>but there are similarities there both of them. Are these

405
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.079
<v Speaker 3>in the story, these singular figures within the midst of

406
00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:14.720
<v Speaker 3>these forests. And I think, if I recall correctly, Gandalf,

407
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.240
<v Speaker 3>it's the very last, or at least Obamba did in

408
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.720
<v Speaker 3>the book says something about tree Beard and the nts

409
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:23.039
<v Speaker 3>when he says he's going to go talk to.

410
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Him but yeah.

411
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:29.440
<v Speaker 3>It's just it's another he's similar to dwarves, me and

412
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:34.160
<v Speaker 3>hobbits at hells of all are my rs unite it.

413
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.359
<v Speaker 3>There's he's a mixture of everything, it seems like, or

414
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.000
<v Speaker 3>at least somewhat. He has similarities with everything.

415
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but he and know what, he seems above them

416
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:47.799
<v Speaker 2>because he's master. So it's a it's an interesting combination,

417
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:49.319
<v Speaker 2>absolutely sure.

418
00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:53.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, so Keith. One of the best one of the

419
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:55.480
<v Speaker 1>best things about your article is that you do a

420
00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:59.480
<v Speaker 1>really uh great job of going through and talking about

421
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:02.720
<v Speaker 1>some of the very theories, right, some of the like

422
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.720
<v Speaker 1>I would say, you probably catalog anything that anybody's come

423
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.440
<v Speaker 1>up with, you know, for the most part. You know,

424
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure maybe there's some other because there's been so

425
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:14.680
<v Speaker 1>much ink spilled on this that there's other little ones

426
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.759
<v Speaker 1>out here, like very slight variations on certain theories. But

427
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:21.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, walk us through some of these theories that

428
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.559
<v Speaker 1>others have suggested to explain who Tom is and where

429
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:26.240
<v Speaker 1>he comes from.

430
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:30.359
<v Speaker 3>Well, as we were talking about earlier, there have been

431
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:35.039
<v Speaker 3>those who have suggested that he is God incarnate, Ahru

432
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:40.519
<v Speaker 3>incarnate in some way, the omnipotent supreme being in the Legendarium.

433
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:46.200
<v Speaker 3>Some have suggested that he's He and Goldberry. Are you know,

434
00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:49.039
<v Speaker 3>among the the lare that, And the most common theory

435
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:54.480
<v Speaker 3>is Ala and Yvanna, that they are Tom and Goldberry

436
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Speaker 3>in disguise, or ala is in disguise and Tom and

437
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:02.240
<v Speaker 3>Vana is in disguise in Goldberry. And there was a

438
00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:05.759
<v Speaker 3>time several years ago where I really thought that might

439
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:10.279
<v Speaker 3>be the best answer to this. I'm much less convinced

440
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.519
<v Speaker 3>of that. I think there's more serious problems with that.

441
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:16.799
<v Speaker 3>Some like Robert Foster in his Little Dictionary, suggested he's

442
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:22.799
<v Speaker 3>one of the Mayor, and you find that theory in

443
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.160
<v Speaker 3>various forms out there. Some have pointed out that in

444
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.240
<v Speaker 3>the print version of the Silmarillion, the published Simarillion, as

445
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:34.720
<v Speaker 3>well as some of the earlier versions of it, Tulkien

446
00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:38.440
<v Speaker 3>mentions other types of spiritual beings who came into Middle

447
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:42.799
<v Speaker 3>Earth along with the Vallar and the Mayar. And there's

448
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:45.319
<v Speaker 3>been a number of variations on that of different types

449
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:48.119
<v Speaker 3>of spiritual beings, And in the earlier writings in the

450
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:52.160
<v Speaker 3>Lost Road and Things, he lifts a large number of

451
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:54.240
<v Speaker 3>those kinds. That gets narrowed down by the time you

452
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:56.880
<v Speaker 3>get to the published simarillion, as you know, but it

453
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.000
<v Speaker 3>still opens the door to other types of spiritual beings.

454
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.000
<v Speaker 3>A nature spirit has been a common theory and that

455
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:07.119
<v Speaker 3>I think similar. It's a branch of that previous one,

456
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:09.559
<v Speaker 3>and that goes all the way back to a letter

457
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.759
<v Speaker 3>he wrote in nineteen thirty seven when he's talking about

458
00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:17.759
<v Speaker 3>the original poems regarding Tom Bombadil. Some of the more

459
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:21.759
<v Speaker 3>recent theories that I've seen become a little more abstract,

460
00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 3>where some have suggested he's the incarnation of Arda, that

461
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:32.039
<v Speaker 3>he is an incarnation of Earth itself, and that ends

462
00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:35.119
<v Speaker 3>up being rooted and some things said about him at

463
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:39.200
<v Speaker 3>the Council of Elron tying him to the power of

464
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:43.440
<v Speaker 3>the earth itself. And then there's a fascinating theory that

465
00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:46.880
<v Speaker 3>he's an incarnation of the music of the imor that

466
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:53.240
<v Speaker 3>is tied in with the predominance of singing that's related

467
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.880
<v Speaker 3>to him. Then there have been some more what I

468
00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:00.160
<v Speaker 3>would call breaking of the fourth wall type theory is

469
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:04.880
<v Speaker 3>where some of the theory that he's tolking himself I've

470
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.039
<v Speaker 3>seen mentioned in communists before, but I've never seen a

471
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:11.039
<v Speaker 3>full blown article about it. I'm sure one's out there.

472
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:16.319
<v Speaker 3>Others that are like that. Some have said that Tom

473
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:20.240
<v Speaker 3>represents the reader or the audience of the story, and

474
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.880
<v Speaker 3>I've seen at least one presentation of that that's enormous,

475
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.400
<v Speaker 3>really long, and one of the strangest theories I've run across.

476
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:32.519
<v Speaker 3>And I've only seen one blog post, really your website,

477
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.599
<v Speaker 3>arguing this is that he's not a good guy, that

478
00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:39.400
<v Speaker 3>he's actually an evil spirit and he's waiting for the

479
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:40.599
<v Speaker 3>downfall of Saloon.

480
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.519
<v Speaker 1>I was shocked when I read that in your article.

481
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:44.519
<v Speaker 1>I was like, really, there's somebody that thinks that, and

482
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.519
<v Speaker 1>I think you do a pretty good job of refuting

483
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:48.559
<v Speaker 1>refuting that.

484
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:52.799
<v Speaker 3>I think that's among the easily refutable theories.

485
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 1>I suppose somebody had to suggest that, you know, possibility,

486
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.000
<v Speaker 1>but it's in there. Yeah, it just doesn't seem to

487
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.200
<v Speaker 1>hold much water at all.

488
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:02.960
<v Speaker 3>And I'm not one hundred percent sure if that website

489
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:07.720
<v Speaker 3>isn't tongue in cheek, I can't quite tell. With it satire, yeah,

490
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:09.839
<v Speaker 3>but I think some people might take it seriously. So

491
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.480
<v Speaker 3>I just mentioned it just cars. And of course there

492
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:14.799
<v Speaker 3>are those who say that Tolkien put him in there

493
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.680
<v Speaker 3>and he's deliberately an enigma that's unsolvable.

494
00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:23.039
<v Speaker 2>Wow, those are They're all like as I was reading

495
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:25.799
<v Speaker 2>through them, I kind of, you know, I would read

496
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:27.599
<v Speaker 2>one of like, oh that yeah, I was kind of

497
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.880
<v Speaker 2>thinking about that, and then you mentioned something I was like, oh, yeah,

498
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:32.200
<v Speaker 2>well that makes sense too. And then and then we

499
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.319
<v Speaker 2>got to the one about it possibly being Tolkien, and

500
00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:36.640
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, yeah, that's what I want it

501
00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:39.279
<v Speaker 2>to be. That's the one I was rooting for. I

502
00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:42.079
<v Speaker 2>was like, I loved that idea, like a cameo in

503
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:43.960
<v Speaker 2>his own legendarium.

504
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk about that one for a second. And

505
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think I think you spoke about this

506
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:53.960
<v Speaker 1>and you referred to you made a connection to this

507
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:59.119
<v Speaker 1>and Leaf by Niggle, if if memory service right, So

508
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:00.119
<v Speaker 1>tell us a little bit about that.

509
00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:06.039
<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't in my opinion, I don't think Tom

510
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:10.519
<v Speaker 3>represents Tulkien, but I wanted to just say that I

511
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:13.000
<v Speaker 3>don't think you can rule it out as impossible like

512
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:17.519
<v Speaker 3>the evil bad guy theory, because of something like Leaf

513
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.480
<v Speaker 3>by Niggle, where you do seem to have talking at

514
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:26.960
<v Speaker 3>least playing with the possibility of entering into this subcreated

515
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:32.759
<v Speaker 3>world after death. In Leaf Biden Niggle, it's hard to

516
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:37.920
<v Speaker 3>tell whether he's actually whether Niggle's entering into his own

517
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:42.720
<v Speaker 3>subcreation or whether in the afterlife God has created this

518
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.880
<v Speaker 3>thing for him to enter into. It's a little fuzzy,

519
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:50.759
<v Speaker 3>but he seems to play with that, and who could

520
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:53.240
<v Speaker 3>blame him. You know, he spent his whole life creating

521
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:57.000
<v Speaker 3>this amazing world with so much beauty in it as

522
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:00.079
<v Speaker 3>well as danger. But the thought of him wanting to

523
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:01.680
<v Speaker 3>enter into it, I don't think it is beyond the

524
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:06.359
<v Speaker 3>realm of possibility. But when he in his letters, when

525
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:11.039
<v Speaker 3>he does talk about any character being most like him,

526
00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:14.000
<v Speaker 3>I think pharam Her is the one he most closely

527
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:19.160
<v Speaker 3>relates himself to, which is why I don't think it's

528
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.559
<v Speaker 3>Tom Bombadill is Tolkien, but I don't will it completely out.

529
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.839
<v Speaker 3>I could see him with a twinkle in his eye,

530
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:29.440
<v Speaker 3>playing that kind of joke on his.

531
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Sure, yeah, yeah, well it's I think that's that's that.

532
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.200
<v Speaker 1>Let kind of leads us into the next, you know

533
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:41.680
<v Speaker 1>portion of your article where you speak about the history

534
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:46.519
<v Speaker 1>of Tom Bombadil not just as a figure in the

535
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:49.640
<v Speaker 1>history of Middle Earth, but but as a as a

536
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:54.319
<v Speaker 1>creation of Tolkien's right, is this is this storytelling figure

537
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:58.400
<v Speaker 1>that that goes that predates even even the Hobbit and

538
00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:02.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the stories of the legendary. So you know,

539
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:08.200
<v Speaker 1>this was a figure that existed outside of Middle Earth

540
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:11.079
<v Speaker 1>for Tolkien for a long time. So tell us a

541
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:12.000
<v Speaker 1>little bit about.

542
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:17.240
<v Speaker 3>That, right, And I think that does play a large

543
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:19.599
<v Speaker 3>part in what you were saying earlier about him singing

544
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:23.839
<v Speaker 3>kind of otherworldly, because he existed in a non Middle

545
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.319
<v Speaker 3>Earth world prior to the writing of The Hobbit and

546
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:31.880
<v Speaker 3>so forth he wrote. As you know, Tolkien wrote stories

547
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.960
<v Speaker 3>for his children. We see the Little Rover random story

548
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:39.920
<v Speaker 3>about the Lost Dog, just beautiful and fun little story

549
00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:44.240
<v Speaker 3>the Hobbits originally written or perhaps poorly told to his

550
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:48.880
<v Speaker 3>children before it goes into print. And these poems about

551
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:53.440
<v Speaker 3>Tom Bondbabill that are written that already include Goldberry and

552
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:57.079
<v Speaker 3>Old Man Willow and the Barrel White. That little world

553
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:01.559
<v Speaker 3>already exists before he writes The Hobbit, before it, long

554
00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:05.839
<v Speaker 3>before he writes Word of the Rings. So it's it's

555
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:09.680
<v Speaker 3>already there, but it's not part of the legendarium. It's

556
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.960
<v Speaker 3>a separate thing like the Father Christmas Letters or Rob

557
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.279
<v Speaker 3>Randon or some of the other little short fictional stories

558
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:16.400
<v Speaker 3>he wrote.

559
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:20.720
<v Speaker 2>Tom I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead, I was just

560
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.799
<v Speaker 2>going to ask a quick clarific clarification question. Now, this

561
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>was a poem. Is that correct that Tom Bombadil first

562
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.720
<v Speaker 2>appeared in Is that was his? Did I read that correctly?

563
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:31.480
<v Speaker 3>Or no?

564
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Was he in a story?

565
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:36.319
<v Speaker 3>That original version, the Little Story of Tom Bombasa was

566
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:37.559
<v Speaker 3>written in poetic form.

567
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.839
<v Speaker 2>Gotcha? Okay? So it was a story, not a poem,

568
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:45.759
<v Speaker 2>but it was a story written in poetic form Where

569
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:47.279
<v Speaker 2>Bombado first appeared?

570
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:49.519
<v Speaker 3>Is that correct?

571
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay? Okay? Yeah, I didn't. I did not realize that

572
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:57.559
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't earlier than that, So I did not even

573
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:03.039
<v Speaker 2>realize that he was created, you know, so much before it.

574
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:07.240
<v Speaker 3>Was nineteen It was published in nineteen thirty four, okay,

575
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:13.079
<v Speaker 3>The Adventures of Tom Bombadill And oh gotach? Okay. His

576
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:17.480
<v Speaker 3>son has a little doll with this clothing and colors

577
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:20.519
<v Speaker 3>of Tom Bombadill, and he writes this billy, kind of

578
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:25.559
<v Speaker 3>fun childlike poem story about this character that is his

579
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.880
<v Speaker 3>son's doll. Later, after The Lord of the Rings is published,

580
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:33.680
<v Speaker 3>he writes some additional poems and then publishes all that

581
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:36.880
<v Speaker 3>together kind of draws it into the legendarium by making

582
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.000
<v Speaker 3>it part of the Red Book of West March and

583
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:42.000
<v Speaker 3>selections out of it written by Okay.

584
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:46.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yes, thank you for clarifying that I did not realize.

585
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:50.000
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't realize that he had a history that

586
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.079
<v Speaker 2>predated Lord of the Rings.

587
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:54.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you know, it's Keith saying he's

588
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:59.799
<v Speaker 1>he's this figure that you know, it was kind of

589
00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:01.720
<v Speaker 1>a a storically, it was almost like it was just

590
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:04.279
<v Speaker 1>a you know, kind of a playful thing with his

591
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:06.839
<v Speaker 1>with his kids for you know, for a long time,

592
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:11.679
<v Speaker 1>as so much of the Legendarium, you know, began began

593
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:13.519
<v Speaker 1>as and then.

594
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:15.320
<v Speaker 3>And then when you start reading the history of the

595
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.760
<v Speaker 3>writing of the Lord of the Rings where he basically

596
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:21.960
<v Speaker 3>just starts writing it soon, according to Christopher Talkien, doesn't

597
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:25.360
<v Speaker 3>really know where this story is going. It finds why

598
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:27.960
<v Speaker 3>it starts the way it does. And he says in

599
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.159
<v Speaker 3>a letter, and Christopher Talkien mentions this in the History

600
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.400
<v Speaker 3>of Middle Earth, that he inserts these characters he had

601
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:37.760
<v Speaker 3>already invented decades earlier because he needed an adventure along

602
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:39.920
<v Speaker 3>the way to the Hobbits.

603
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:41.199
<v Speaker 2>I love that expression.

604
00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:44.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he takes that little world of Tom Bombadill and

605
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:47.079
<v Speaker 3>Goldberry and the Old Man Willow and the Barrel of

606
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:50.159
<v Speaker 3>white Ploks. It writing the Path and the Hobbits and

607
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:54.360
<v Speaker 3>they walk into the old Forest and running too Tom Bombadille.

608
00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, But you also make the comment that that

609
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.199
<v Speaker 2>that's not the only place that Bombadell appears in Lord

610
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:03.480
<v Speaker 2>of the Rings. I mean, he keeps kind of his

611
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:07.159
<v Speaker 2>name keeps popping up throughout throughout the books, and even

612
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:11.679
<v Speaker 2>at the end, you know, there's a dream that that

613
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Freda remembers having had it, you know, at Bombadill. So

614
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:18.880
<v Speaker 2>it's not it's not like that's an isolated those three

615
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.400
<v Speaker 2>chapters are not. They're not like a standalone kind.

616
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Of Yeah, it's not. It's not an easy break between

617
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.000
<v Speaker 1>them like they he you know, he's definitely spoken of

618
00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:31.679
<v Speaker 1>at the Council of Elrond, you know, a good bit

619
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:34.719
<v Speaker 1>and he's he's actually proposed is let's just give the

620
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.159
<v Speaker 1>ring to Tom. Let's just give the ring to Tom

621
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:39.480
<v Speaker 1>because it apparently has no effect on him, and maybe

622
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 1>it'll just be safe, you know, maybe it'll just be

623
00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:45.480
<v Speaker 1>safe until you know, until the end of the world there, right.

624
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:50.599
<v Speaker 1>But and and that that actually serves to refute the

625
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.000
<v Speaker 1>idea that he is and that he's like a Louvatar

626
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:59.760
<v Speaker 1>or even a valor, because they their basics response is well, yes,

627
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:02.320
<v Speaker 1>it'll probably be safe there, safer than it would be

628
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:05.639
<v Speaker 1>in a lot of places. But eventually even Tom will

629
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.559
<v Speaker 1>succumb to you know, will succumb to Suron.

630
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:12.679
<v Speaker 3>Right, right, And and I think more than one of

631
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.159
<v Speaker 3>them say the Ring has no power over him, but

632
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:17.840
<v Speaker 3>he has no power over the Ring, right, which I

633
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.280
<v Speaker 3>think that rules out, you know, the god figure in

634
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:25.719
<v Speaker 3>the Middle Earth legends, because surely the creator would have

635
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:27.280
<v Speaker 3>power over the Creator.

636
00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:31.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly exactly, But he's.

637
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:33.880
<v Speaker 3>He has mentioned a few other times, not a lot,

638
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:37.159
<v Speaker 3>but in Shilob's lair, Sam, I'm not sure which Tom

639
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:40.639
<v Speaker 3>was here. And the fascinating thing there is immediately after

640
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:44.360
<v Speaker 3>that statement, they remember the little vial of light that

641
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:46.559
<v Speaker 3>the lady will give him. And then of course at

642
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.679
<v Speaker 3>the end with Gandalf, he's going to talk to him.

643
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.320
<v Speaker 3>I've been looking everywhere to see if that statement about

644
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 3>he's a he's a stone gathering moss, and I've been

645
00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:59.000
<v Speaker 3>a rolling stone if there's anything anywhere that would tie

646
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.360
<v Speaker 3>that in the a clue, but haven't found anything yet.

647
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:05.840
<v Speaker 3>And then, of course, when as you were saying, when

648
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:10.400
<v Speaker 3>Proto finally crosses the sea into the west. That vision

649
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:14.119
<v Speaker 3>that he describes is echoes the dream he'd had in

650
00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:14.639
<v Speaker 3>the house of.

651
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:17.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

652
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:21.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well we've we've gone through all of the other

653
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:28.519
<v Speaker 1>other theories that have been proposed, and you, uh, you

654
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.440
<v Speaker 1>spend a little time, I'll say this before we dive

655
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:34.960
<v Speaker 1>into to your particular theory that that you put forward

656
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.440
<v Speaker 1>in this article. You you spend a little time with

657
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.679
<v Speaker 1>some of these other theories, and you you you divide

658
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:44.119
<v Speaker 1>them up into basically two types of two types of

659
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:48.079
<v Speaker 1>theories and talking about them, right.

660
00:37:48.039 --> 00:37:51.960
<v Speaker 3>Uh, I just for the psych of classification, I divided

661
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.440
<v Speaker 3>them into theories where Tom breaks the fourth wall. Those

662
00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.599
<v Speaker 3>would be theories such as he is Tolkien or the

663
00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:03.000
<v Speaker 3>Reader or the audience that brings the outside world into

664
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:07.679
<v Speaker 3>Middle Earth. And the other type of theories are those

665
00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:14.239
<v Speaker 3>where Tom exists entirely within Middle Earth itself. So that's

666
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:16.440
<v Speaker 3>just an easy way for me to remember the different times.

667
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Sure to group them together, because I mean we listed

668
00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:22.239
<v Speaker 1>off ten or eleven, you know, different different variations, and

669
00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:24.079
<v Speaker 1>so it helps to group them right like that. And

670
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:26.880
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to say, just in case there are those

671
00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:30.320
<v Speaker 1>who aren't familiar with that idea of breaking the fourth Wall.

672
00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:36.519
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure many listeners are, but there's probably some who aren't. Basically,

673
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:39.719
<v Speaker 1>what I think what you're describing, Keith, is this idea

674
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:46.760
<v Speaker 1>that sometimes in a story a character will will speak

675
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 1>to the like, speak to the audience. That's kind of

676
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.440
<v Speaker 1>like the most well known way where it's just like

677
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:53.159
<v Speaker 1>you're like watching a movie and then all of a sudden,

678
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:55.880
<v Speaker 1>it's like everything's happening in kind of the three dimensional

679
00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:57.280
<v Speaker 1>world of the movie, and then all of a sudden,

680
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:00.599
<v Speaker 1>one of the characters turned towards turns towards you and

681
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:04.800
<v Speaker 1>the audience and starts speaking to you directly, right, Ferris.

682
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:07.719
<v Speaker 3>Bueller's Day Off, Deadpool, those type of movies where the

683
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:13.119
<v Speaker 3>audience is constantly being brought into this and in some

684
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:17.119
<v Speaker 3>ways it's breaking the illusion and playing with that. You know,

685
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:21.039
<v Speaker 3>they step out of the Ferris Mueller stepped out of

686
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:24.559
<v Speaker 3>his little world and addresses you, Deadpool stepped out of

687
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:27.199
<v Speaker 3>the Marvel universe and addresses the audience, And that kind

688
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:31.719
<v Speaker 3>of thing almost be like a stage man becoming part

689
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:32.440
<v Speaker 3>of a play.

690
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah right, yeah, and uh and and so this would

691
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.760
<v Speaker 1>be something very like like you're basically saying, like with

692
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:42.440
<v Speaker 1>the theory that he's Tolkien, or the theory that he

693
00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:45.800
<v Speaker 1>is actually the reader or the audience that would be

694
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.280
<v Speaker 1>these kind of fourth wall breaking the fourth wall types

695
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:49.480
<v Speaker 1>of theories right.

696
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:52.480
<v Speaker 3>Where somewhere our world breaks into the world of Middle

697
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:55.639
<v Speaker 3>Earth intersects with it.

698
00:39:56.199 --> 00:40:04.760
<v Speaker 1>Yes, gotcha, gotcha? So well, let's let's talk about what

699
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:06.760
<v Speaker 1>you put forward is your theory. So you spend a

700
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:08.440
<v Speaker 1>good kind of you spend a lot of time dealing

701
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:10.800
<v Speaker 1>with other people's theories and tracing the history of this

702
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:15.800
<v Speaker 1>of this character. Now, but you have you have, you know,

703
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:18.760
<v Speaker 1>a unique take on this, and so tell us about that.

704
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm so can I give you a time out super quick?

705
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.079
<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to back up a teeny bit because

706
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:27.880
<v Speaker 2>one thing I really appreciated about your article, Keith, was

707
00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:31.360
<v Speaker 2>how you mentioned a lot of the letters that you

708
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.480
<v Speaker 2>brought in, a lot of letters that Tolkien himself had

709
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:38.400
<v Speaker 2>written and things that he specifically said about Bombadil, and

710
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:41.800
<v Speaker 2>I was curious if there is I feel like after

711
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:43.639
<v Speaker 2>I read through those, I was like, well, that's clear

712
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.960
<v Speaker 2>as mud now, thanks Tolkien. Like I've like, we've just

713
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:50.199
<v Speaker 2>complicated the issue further, We've done nothing cleared up. But

714
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:52.280
<v Speaker 2>I was just wondering because I know you mentioned a

715
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of letters, but was there just one particular one

716
00:40:54.920 --> 00:41:00.000
<v Speaker 2>that kind of, you know, made a special impact on you,

717
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:04.039
<v Speaker 2>or one that kind of helped you further kind of

718
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:08.880
<v Speaker 2>develop your own theory per se.

719
00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:13.480
<v Speaker 3>I think the first one that had me start thinking

720
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:16.639
<v Speaker 3>about this with I believe it's letter one forty four

721
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:24.960
<v Speaker 3>when he says he basically identify as Tom with a

722
00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:29.280
<v Speaker 3>vow of poverty, renouncing control, taking delight in things for themself,

723
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:35.199
<v Speaker 3>and then he mentions that Tom's representing a natural pacifist.

724
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:40.519
<v Speaker 3>You vow of poverty and pacifism, and is what immediately

725
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:43.400
<v Speaker 3>started the wheels turning in my mind. But it wasn't

726
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:47.400
<v Speaker 3>enough for me to really think that's not conclusive because

727
00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:51.280
<v Speaker 3>in other letters he said to represent it and embody

728
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.159
<v Speaker 3>other things, but based on knowing a little bit of

729
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:59.639
<v Speaker 3>church history, that got the wheels turning. The other letter

730
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:04.199
<v Speaker 3>that was very significant for what I ended up doing

731
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:08.679
<v Speaker 3>was one that's not found in his published letters, but

732
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.119
<v Speaker 3>one that's found in The Lord of the Rings Reader's

733
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:18.480
<v Speaker 3>Guide edited by Hammond and Skull. That it wasn't what

734
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:21.079
<v Speaker 3>got me started, but it was a major piece of

735
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:25.079
<v Speaker 3>the puzzle. So those were the two I think that started.

736
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:30.800
<v Speaker 3>And then the one where he says a letter one

737
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:33.719
<v Speaker 3>two when he says, the Lord of the Rings is

738
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:37.639
<v Speaker 3>of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, unconsciously so

739
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.480
<v Speaker 3>at first, but consciously in the revision, and that the

740
00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:46.199
<v Speaker 3>religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

741
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:49.920
<v Speaker 3>All of these comments he's making in these letters were

742
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:55.599
<v Speaker 3>coming together in my mind and really influenced the direction

743
00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:59.320
<v Speaker 3>my thought was taking on this and where I went it.

744
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:02.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, very cool, Thank you.

745
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, So that that leads right in then to our

746
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, to your theory. Right, So you've you've you've

747
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:10.159
<v Speaker 1>kind of hinted at some of the ideas that you

748
00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.280
<v Speaker 1>that you put forward. So tell us lay it all

749
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:16.760
<v Speaker 1>out here for us, your theory on on maybe not

750
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:20.760
<v Speaker 1>exactly who Tom Bombadill is, but but how we can

751
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:22.599
<v Speaker 1>better understand who he is.

752
00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:26.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that, you know, based on what he

753
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:28.920
<v Speaker 3>says in letter one for two, where he says that

754
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:32.920
<v Speaker 3>certain religious elements are absorbed into the story and that

755
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:37.360
<v Speaker 3>it's fundamentally a religious and Catholic work consciously in the revision.

756
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:42.599
<v Speaker 3>Most readers know that Tolkien was devoutly Roman Catholic. But

757
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:45.960
<v Speaker 3>what I wanted to start exploring is I was preparing

758
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:48.719
<v Speaker 3>this and thinking about it was whether that had any

759
00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:52.320
<v Speaker 3>implications for Bamba did On, And I started running across

760
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:54.000
<v Speaker 3>some of these things that I mentioned in the letters.

761
00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:56.360
<v Speaker 3>Some had already read. They were just in the back

762
00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:01.320
<v Speaker 3>of my mind. But I think that Bambadil and Goldberry

763
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:07.760
<v Speaker 3>are characters that do absorb certain specific elements of Tolkien's

764
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:13.360
<v Speaker 3>Roman Catholic religion into them, and they represent something that

765
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:16.119
<v Speaker 3>I think Tolkien believed was important to represent in Middle Earth,

766
00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:19.480
<v Speaker 3>but he couldn't do it explicitly because from the Third Age,

767
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:22.079
<v Speaker 3>that's thousands of years before the Christian Age, he couldn't

768
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.599
<v Speaker 3>put it in there in any explicit form. So and

769
00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:27.960
<v Speaker 3>then that's where all these other pieces started to come

770
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:30.719
<v Speaker 3>into play. The in Letter one forty four he speaks

771
00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:33.880
<v Speaker 3>about a vow of poverty and passes, and Letter one

772
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:40.440
<v Speaker 3>fifty three talks about Bombadil representing a spirit coeval with

773
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:44.199
<v Speaker 3>the natural mind and love of nature and so forth,

774
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:48.320
<v Speaker 3>and Tom in the story itself, is constantly associated with

775
00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:54.519
<v Speaker 3>music and singing. Those things immediately in my mind reminded

776
00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:57.519
<v Speaker 3>me of the Franciscans and the Saint Francis of a

777
00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:01.079
<v Speaker 3>sisi in the Franciscan order, because that's what that order.

778
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:05.559
<v Speaker 3>And he even more specifically was known for his radical

779
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:10.079
<v Speaker 3>vow of poverty, his pacifism, his love of nature, and

780
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:15.599
<v Speaker 3>for his mary almost frivolous, jolly singing. If you read G. K.

781
00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:22.559
<v Speaker 3>Chesterson's biography of Francis, it's hard almost it's almost hard

782
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.239
<v Speaker 3>to imagine that Tulkien didn't read that biography and have

783
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:27.719
<v Speaker 3>that in his head when he was writing some of this.

784
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.880
<v Speaker 3>And I think that's all a lot of circumstantial evidence.

785
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:35.519
<v Speaker 3>And I had just been mulling that over for years

786
00:45:35.599 --> 00:45:37.400
<v Speaker 3>but really not knowing what to do with it. And

787
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.920
<v Speaker 3>then the thing that finally made me think maybe I

788
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:44.000
<v Speaker 3>can put this into an article was when I was

789
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:48.280
<v Speaker 3>thinking about the use of dates in The Lord of

790
00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:52.719
<v Speaker 3>the Rings and how the Fellowship leaves, and Joseph Pearce

791
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:54.960
<v Speaker 3>was one of the ones who brought this up. Where

792
00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:58.800
<v Speaker 3>the Fellowship departs from Ribbondale on December twenty fifth in

793
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:02.000
<v Speaker 3>the traditional Christian obviously that's the traditional date of the

794
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:05.800
<v Speaker 3>birth of Christ. The ring is destroyed on March twenty fifth,

795
00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:10.199
<v Speaker 3>which is the traditional date of the crucifixion, and so

796
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:14.639
<v Speaker 3>Tolkien seems to at times being playing with these dates

797
00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:17.599
<v Speaker 3>as ways of absorbing a religious element into the story.

798
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.920
<v Speaker 3>And I started to wonder, is there could there be

799
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:24.599
<v Speaker 3>any significance to the dates associated with Tom. And I

800
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:27.039
<v Speaker 3>went back to a predictsbee at the end of The

801
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:29.039
<v Speaker 3>Lord of the Rings and looked up what it said

802
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:33.360
<v Speaker 3>about bombadal and in the timeline, the Hobbits meet Tom

803
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:37.800
<v Speaker 3>Bombadil on September twenty sixth, And that didn't spark anything

804
00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:40.760
<v Speaker 3>in my memory. But I went and did started digging around,

805
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:46.119
<v Speaker 3>and lo and behold, I found out that September twenty sixth,

806
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.000
<v Speaker 3>for a long time was the traditional date of Saint

807
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.880
<v Speaker 3>Francis's birth, and there are a number of sources out

808
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:57.599
<v Speaker 3>there that listed as the traditional date for his birth.

809
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:02.760
<v Speaker 3>So coincidence possibly, but when you take that along with

810
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:09.079
<v Speaker 3>all the other things, it seems like maybe there's something

811
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:13.480
<v Speaker 3>more to this. In that day where they encountered him

812
00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:16.039
<v Speaker 3>is the day of Francis with birth and all these

813
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:19.440
<v Speaker 3>things he says in the letter and characteristics of him

814
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.920
<v Speaker 3>that looks so much like Francis. That started to add them.

815
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:27.480
<v Speaker 3>And then I started looking at Goldberry, and there are

816
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:32.639
<v Speaker 3>interesting things there. He's always portrayed he's bringing her white

817
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:36.480
<v Speaker 3>lilies the first time they see him. And if you

818
00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:42.119
<v Speaker 3>go back into the early medieval period, white lilies are

819
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:46.760
<v Speaker 3>commonly used as symbols of the Virgin Mary. I've gone

820
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.079
<v Speaker 3>back and looked at all these medieval artworks, and in

821
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:52.840
<v Speaker 3>the medieval paintings of the Annunciation, where Gabriel is announcing

822
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:57.239
<v Speaker 3>to her becoming birth of Christ, there's always these pots

823
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.159
<v Speaker 3>at her feet with white lilies in them. And you know,

824
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.159
<v Speaker 3>when you encounter Goldberry for the first time in the

825
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:04.880
<v Speaker 3>house of bonb the build, She's got all these lily's

826
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.639
<v Speaker 3>at her feet and Tom's bringing her more So, maybe

827
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:14.079
<v Speaker 3>if Tom absorbs some kind of Franciscan spirituality or Franciscan element,

828
00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:19.480
<v Speaker 3>Goldberry perhaps and absorbs a Marian element, which might explain

829
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:23.440
<v Speaker 3>when Tom is just completely devoted to Mary, because that's

830
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:28.119
<v Speaker 3>another feature of Franciscan theology, is they are at the

831
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:31.760
<v Speaker 3>top of the list in terms of devotion to marriage

832
00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:38.440
<v Speaker 3>and then other things. I started to notice Goldberry's song

833
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:42.159
<v Speaker 3>as they approach the house. She's said, let's sing the

834
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:45.320
<v Speaker 3>song of sun stars, mean and missed raining, cloudy weather,

835
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:48.000
<v Speaker 3>and so forth, And it occurred to me, you know,

836
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:50.960
<v Speaker 3>one of Francis's most famous songs is the Canticle of

837
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.360
<v Speaker 3>the Sun, and that whole song is about sun, stars,

838
00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:57.239
<v Speaker 3>moon and mist and so forth. Is she calling them

839
00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:00.920
<v Speaker 3>to sing the Canticle of the Sun in some weird symbolically.

840
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:06.480
<v Speaker 3>And then one of the other things that I didn't

841
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:09.760
<v Speaker 3>notice until very recently when I was rereading the story

842
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:14.079
<v Speaker 3>to for this Semester's class, is in the chapter on

843
00:49:14.119 --> 00:49:20.719
<v Speaker 3>the Old Forest, when when Frodo and then they're walking

844
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:25.039
<v Speaker 3>through the forest, they're getting extremely discouraged, and then they

845
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:29.880
<v Speaker 3>see a hill, this treeless hill in the distance, and

846
00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:32.880
<v Speaker 3>Tolkien describes it as rising like a bald head out

847
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.840
<v Speaker 3>of the encircling wood, and the passing to be making

848
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:38.159
<v Speaker 3>directly for it. And then just a few sentutes later

849
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.559
<v Speaker 3>he says, the wood stood all around the hill like

850
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:44.199
<v Speaker 3>thick hair that ended sharply in a circle round a

851
00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:49.920
<v Speaker 3>shaven crown. You know, whatever where I'm going with this,

852
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:53.480
<v Speaker 3>that's that medieval tonsure where the ringdo of.

853
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:55.159
<v Speaker 2>Hair Francis himself.

854
00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:57.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'd never noticed.

855
00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:00.000
<v Speaker 3>That before until after I'd written this and it started

856
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:02.719
<v Speaker 3>thinking about this, I thought, well, okay, these hobbits are

857
00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:05.599
<v Speaker 3>walking through this creepy old forest. They see a hill.

858
00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:08.159
<v Speaker 3>Tolkien describes it as looking like the head of a monk.

859
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:12.760
<v Speaker 3>What in the world is that all about? Maybe Tom

860
00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:16.239
<v Speaker 3>Bombadil's the answer to that question in some way. So

861
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:18.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm not I should make it clear. I'm not saying

862
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:22.480
<v Speaker 3>that Bombadil is Saint Francis, right, or I'm not saying

863
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:26.679
<v Speaker 3>that Goldberry is Mary or Saint Clair of the Sissy.

864
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:30.440
<v Speaker 3>But I'm wondering if I'm thinking there's a possibility that

865
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:36.360
<v Speaker 3>these two characters are allowing Tom, allowing Tolkien to bring

866
00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:40.199
<v Speaker 3>something in a particular type of spirituality into the story

867
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:42.880
<v Speaker 3>that he can't put in it explicitly, and do so

868
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:44.000
<v Speaker 3>in a very fun way.

869
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:48.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I do too. You say,

870
00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:51.199
<v Speaker 1>Tom then might be the embodiment or representative of something

871
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:54.039
<v Speaker 1>Tolkien believe was needed in the story, a particular aspect

872
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:59.599
<v Speaker 1>of Roman Catholic spirituality exemplified by the Franciscans, specifically poverty, pacifism,

873
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:01.800
<v Speaker 1>a love of nature, and a pension for joyful song.

874
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:02.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

875
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:04.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, at some point, you know, you get all

876
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:09.800
<v Speaker 1>these uh coincidences, right, and at some point all the

877
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:13.000
<v Speaker 1>coincidences start to seem kind of like some kind of conspiracy,

878
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:16.280
<v Speaker 1>some kind of conspiracy. Right, how many coincidences do we

879
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:19.079
<v Speaker 1>need to at some point say something's going on here,

880
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:21.840
<v Speaker 1>like some something is pointing in uh, you know, in

881
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:27.000
<v Speaker 1>a specific direction here. That thing about uh, the hill

882
00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:30.719
<v Speaker 1>being the bald head, you know, the taunture is that's brilliant.

883
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:32.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, and it and it does seem

884
00:51:33.239 --> 00:51:37.199
<v Speaker 1>that's exactly how Tolkien describes it there, you know, is

885
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:43.440
<v Speaker 1>that that famous Francisco So Tom So Tom like lives

886
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.960
<v Speaker 1>on this tonsureed head of a hill. Basically I don't

887
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:48.239
<v Speaker 1>know if.

888
00:51:48.199 --> 00:51:49.880
<v Speaker 3>He lives on that hill, but they saw that.

889
00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, yeah, and you know, the you know's the

890
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:59.599
<v Speaker 2>the fact of where this happens in the story, I

891
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:01.960
<v Speaker 2>mean makes the He makes a point of saying that

892
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.639
<v Speaker 2>they were becoming discouraged and you know, worn down, and

893
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:08.719
<v Speaker 2>Froto even thinks about turning around, like he's ready to

894
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:11.800
<v Speaker 2>throw in the towel, and then lo and behold, here

895
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:16.679
<v Speaker 2>comes Tom and you know, and it has a very

896
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.119
<v Speaker 2>it's definitely a source. It ends up being a source

897
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:24.000
<v Speaker 2>of refreshment and encouragement to the party. And I think

898
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:28.079
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of people out there who you know,

899
00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:31.320
<v Speaker 2>who find a lot of comfort and peace, and the

900
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:34.159
<v Speaker 2>writings of Saint Francis, and you know, and in the

901
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:38.320
<v Speaker 2>different visions that are you know, operations are being married,

902
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:41.039
<v Speaker 2>and in just knowing what we know about Tolkien, I

903
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:44.199
<v Speaker 2>feel like it makes so much sense. And just where

904
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:47.719
<v Speaker 2>they live has a very just calming, like almost a

905
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.199
<v Speaker 2>monastic type of of feel to it.

906
00:52:51.559 --> 00:52:55.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely, it's like a it's like a retreat house exactly.

907
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

908
00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:56.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

909
00:52:56.800 --> 00:53:02.239
<v Speaker 1>And Keith, you're reading your article and reading this section

910
00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:06.119
<v Speaker 1>on Saint Francis made me think one other thing, brought

911
00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:08.360
<v Speaker 1>one other thing to mine for me. And it's a

912
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:14.000
<v Speaker 1>biographical note for Tolkien. Of course, his his basically father

913
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:17.320
<v Speaker 1>figure for his for most of his childhood was not

914
00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:20.480
<v Speaker 1>his biological father, but it was. It was a Catholic

915
00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:26.159
<v Speaker 1>priest named Father Francis. And so now Father Francis was

916
00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:30.519
<v Speaker 1>not a Franciscan, but the name Francis, if you're going

917
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:34.920
<v Speaker 1>to be given the name Francis after you know, after

918
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:39.519
<v Speaker 1>the after the existence of Saint franc of Assisi as

919
00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:42.880
<v Speaker 1>a as a Catholic, then that name somehow harkens back

920
00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:45.760
<v Speaker 1>to Saint Francis of Assisi. He was he was that

921
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:48.519
<v Speaker 1>big a role, that big a figure in the history

922
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:55.239
<v Speaker 1>of of Christianity. And uh so that that's just another

923
00:53:55.320 --> 00:53:58.119
<v Speaker 1>thing that made me think, like you know, Tolkien was

924
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:02.760
<v Speaker 1>it seems clear, clearer and clearer that Tolkien me. You

925
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:05.719
<v Speaker 1>know that Tom Bombada wasn't necessarily like created to be

926
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:11.719
<v Speaker 1>Saint Francis, but that he became a Franciscan figure over

927
00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:15.679
<v Speaker 1>time and in the development of of Tolkien's own thought

928
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:19.960
<v Speaker 1>and writings, and and you know, and maybe in part

929
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:22.440
<v Speaker 1>he was also a tribute to this, you know, this

930
00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:26.599
<v Speaker 1>man who was, you know, the father that that Tolkien,

931
00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:31.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, the biological father, you know that the father

932
00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:33.639
<v Speaker 1>figure that Tolkien needed and and didn't have because his

933
00:54:33.719 --> 00:54:35.960
<v Speaker 1>biological father passed away when he was so young.

934
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly exactly. And I feel like it also serves

935
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:43.079
<v Speaker 2>to support, you know, the fact that the Ring has

936
00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:47.400
<v Speaker 2>no power over him, because we we have we have

937
00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:51.079
<v Speaker 2>a good friend who's a Franciscan. Actually, and I still

938
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:53.519
<v Speaker 2>remember this one time where he was can.

939
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:55.559
<v Speaker 1>I can I can I read something? I'm gonna interrupt

940
00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:59.119
<v Speaker 1>you because I need I need to interject something here. Okay, right, So.

941
00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:01.039
<v Speaker 2>Here's what we're say because it's important.

942
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:06.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm actually gonna mention that. So, So Keith, I wrote

943
00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:11.199
<v Speaker 1>a I wrote a book on music, and you know,

944
00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:14.320
<v Speaker 1>in uh, in Middle Earth, and I actually specifically wrote

945
00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:16.880
<v Speaker 1>a chapter on Tom on Tom Bombadil in that chapter,

946
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:19.679
<v Speaker 1>because he has such an interesting relationship with music, and

947
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:22.360
<v Speaker 1>I think a couple of years ago we talked about Tom.

948
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:24.400
<v Speaker 1>But I mean we we went chapter by chapter through

949
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Lord of the Rings. So I'm sure there were several

950
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.920
<v Speaker 1>chapters we it's all blur now, but we I know

951
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:31.039
<v Speaker 1>we had the conversation you were about to bring up

952
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:34.800
<v Speaker 1>about our friend here is a Franciscan friar, and that

953
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:38.639
<v Speaker 1>that that kind of story found its way into my book. Uh.

954
00:55:38.679 --> 00:55:41.519
<v Speaker 1>And so I'm gonna read what I'd written here, and

955
00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:45.000
<v Speaker 1>I think it's what or do you want to? All right?

956
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:49.159
<v Speaker 1>So he says, well, I was planning on working this

957
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:50.719
<v Speaker 1>in and I got to work in a plug from

958
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:53.960
<v Speaker 1>my book, you know, even though this is about Keith

959
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:57.880
<v Speaker 1>and not about but but this it's from the section

960
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:02.159
<v Speaker 1>titled Tom versus Saron's Ring and it says, I say,

961
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:04.079
<v Speaker 1>perhaps it is that Tom is the embodiment of the

962
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:06.800
<v Speaker 1>care free song. A good number of his songs are silly,

963
00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:09.599
<v Speaker 1>so much so that many readers find Tom annoying. Yet

964
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.639
<v Speaker 1>he is incredibly powerful all the same, though great figures

965
00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:15.960
<v Speaker 1>like Gandalf, Elrond and Gladriel shudder from the temptation of

966
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Suron's ring. Is Zildur's Bane has no effect on Tom?

967
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:22.159
<v Speaker 1>How can this be? In a nineteen fifty four letter

968
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:25.920
<v Speaker 1>to Naomi Mitchison, Tolkien elaborated on Tom's purpose and Lord

969
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:28.239
<v Speaker 1>of the Rings. Though he first refers to Tom as

970
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:31.199
<v Speaker 1>being not an important person to the narrative, he nevertheless

971
00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:32.960
<v Speaker 1>insists that he would not have left him in if

972
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:35.559
<v Speaker 1>he did not have some kind of function. Tolkien goes

973
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:38.840
<v Speaker 1>on to elaborate about the moral philosophy underlying the Lord

974
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.000
<v Speaker 1>of the Rings, yet finally admitting that the desire for

975
00:56:41.079 --> 00:56:43.519
<v Speaker 1>control is one that even the good guys are highly

976
00:56:43.559 --> 00:56:46.639
<v Speaker 1>susceptible to. He speaks then of a vow of poverty,

977
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:50.400
<v Speaker 1>implying that Tom has taken something along those lines. Here

978
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:52.000
<v Speaker 1>we go, I have a good friend who is a

979
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:53.960
<v Speaker 1>Franciscan friar. We have a good friend who is a

980
00:56:53.960 --> 00:56:56.800
<v Speaker 1>Franciscan friar and avowed follower of the way of life

981
00:56:56.800 --> 00:56:59.639
<v Speaker 1>modeled by Saint Francis of ASSISI. One of the vows

982
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:01.800
<v Speaker 1>he took when he became a Franciscan was a vow

983
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:04.400
<v Speaker 1>of poverty. Just what is the nature of such a vow?

984
00:57:04.519 --> 00:57:06.559
<v Speaker 1>In essence, it is a refusal to take hold of

985
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:09.159
<v Speaker 1>anything with one's heart. I recall a moment when I

986
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:12.119
<v Speaker 1>saw the power of this vow in action. My friend,

987
00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:14.880
<v Speaker 1>given the opportunity to accept some kind of gift, kindly

988
00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:18.039
<v Speaker 1>refused it, making a suggestion about it, about who it

989
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:20.320
<v Speaker 1>could be given to. In a way, this vow was

990
00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:23.440
<v Speaker 1>his richness. Possession of the gift threatened this vow, A

991
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:26.239
<v Speaker 1>vow which I saw in a stark spiritual moment, brought

992
00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:29.599
<v Speaker 1>him true happiness, true freedom, true peace, and inner harmony,

993
00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:32.320
<v Speaker 1>if you will. Though my friend's reaction was not perfect,

994
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.400
<v Speaker 1>I could tell he still struggled to maintain the vow

995
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:36.440
<v Speaker 1>to some degree, which is of course to be expected.

996
00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:39.679
<v Speaker 1>It nevertheless yielded great insight into the nature of such

997
00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:43.159
<v Speaker 1>a vow. If we follow Tolkien's line of reasoning, tom

998
00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:46.000
<v Speaker 1>has fulfilled this vow perfectly and no longer must struggle

999
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:51.719
<v Speaker 1>to maintain it. If ever, he did struggle, so that

1000
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:54.960
<v Speaker 1>whole thing of the vow of poverty was something that

1001
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:58.960
<v Speaker 1>I resonated with me on kind of that same frequency.

1002
00:57:59.079 --> 00:58:01.679
<v Speaker 1>You do a much more thorough and better job of

1003
00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:04.239
<v Speaker 1>developing this question of the Franciscan relation. I means some

1004
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:07.679
<v Speaker 1>of these, you know, the the tonsured hill, the date

1005
00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:10.280
<v Speaker 1>of the significance of September twenty sixth being the date

1006
00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:13.159
<v Speaker 1>that they meet Tom bombadil Uh, and that being the

1007
00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:18.239
<v Speaker 1>traditional feast day of San Francivissisi. You know, I guess

1008
00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:19.880
<v Speaker 1>all I'm trying to say is it looks like great

1009
00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:22.599
<v Speaker 1>minds think think alike on this key.

1010
00:58:24.039 --> 00:58:24.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1011
00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:27.000
<v Speaker 3>That's why one thing I mentioned somewhere maybe in a

1012
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:31.920
<v Speaker 3>post script on that article. I'm I'm positive others should

1013
00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:34.960
<v Speaker 3>caught some elements of this whole thing. I just haven't

1014
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:38.960
<v Speaker 3>run it for us that developed. Yeah, yeah, sure, others

1015
00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:43.400
<v Speaker 3>have seen that valve poverty communist and thought, I think Francis.

1016
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:46.519
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, well, and and that was my only like

1017
00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:49.199
<v Speaker 1>kind of connection on it was just, oh, valve poverty,

1018
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:53.360
<v Speaker 1>that's you know what Franciscan's Franciscans take. But like I said,

1019
00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:55.960
<v Speaker 1>you do a like you really actually show that that

1020
00:58:56.199 --> 00:59:00.199
<v Speaker 1>may be much closer to the truth, right, this this

1021
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:04.719
<v Speaker 1>idea that that Tom is almost like this avatar of

1022
00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:06.679
<v Speaker 1>a Franciscan spirituality.

1023
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:10.400
<v Speaker 3>I think he's a he's a pre Franciscan Franciscan. He's

1024
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:14.119
<v Speaker 3>representing something that will later be more fully exemplified by

1025
00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:19.119
<v Speaker 3>Francis in that order. But it's something I think Tolkien

1026
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:22.519
<v Speaker 3>wanted in the story somewhere, and Tom was able to

1027
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:26.320
<v Speaker 3>by using Tom, He's able to bring that element in

1028
00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:29.760
<v Speaker 3>and it becomes a significant part of the story. I think.

1029
00:59:29.800 --> 00:59:32.400
<v Speaker 3>I don't think I disagree with those who think Tom

1030
00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:34.559
<v Speaker 3>can be just removed from the story with no effect

1031
00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:37.239
<v Speaker 3>to it. I think he does become an important part.

1032
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:40.079
<v Speaker 3>Even though he's not mentioned a lot later, He's he

1033
00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:43.280
<v Speaker 3>is a significant part of the replot at the very

1034
00:59:43.360 --> 00:59:47.199
<v Speaker 3>least rescuing them from the barrel Whites and giving them

1035
00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:52.239
<v Speaker 3>the swords that or late later become very important. Absolutely,

1036
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:56.880
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, that nobody else in the story represents that

1037
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:02.320
<v Speaker 3>complete detachment from possession and desire for power and control

1038
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:03.159
<v Speaker 3>as he does.

1039
01:00:03.199 --> 01:00:06.360
<v Speaker 1>But but we know that that's such an important theme

1040
01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:07.920
<v Speaker 1>in the story. It may be the key theme of

1041
01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:10.440
<v Speaker 1>the whole you know, of the whole story of Lord

1042
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:14.199
<v Speaker 1>of the Rings. Is this this question of that, here's

1043
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:17.800
<v Speaker 1>this powerful object that the one thing you can't do

1044
01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:21.480
<v Speaker 1>is take it for your own. The moment you take

1045
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:25.320
<v Speaker 1>it for your own, uh, and and you try to

1046
01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:29.159
<v Speaker 1>possess it, you try to control it, that's the moment

1047
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:32.360
<v Speaker 1>in which you're going to be owned by it, right,

1048
01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:36.039
<v Speaker 1>It's going it's going to take possession of you. And

1049
01:00:36.039 --> 01:00:39.800
<v Speaker 1>and so tom really is hugely important in that sense

1050
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:43.920
<v Speaker 1>because he shows he shows that it's possible to not

1051
01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:47.679
<v Speaker 1>for it not to have an effect on an on

1052
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:50.760
<v Speaker 1>an individual, even though we don't know why, you know,

1053
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.840
<v Speaker 1>he's able to pull that off. But it's but he's

1054
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:57.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of like this, it's almost like he's an he's

1055
01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:00.000
<v Speaker 1>an eschatological figure in a way. He's like he's both.

1056
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:03.400
<v Speaker 1>He both hearkens back to before anything was in the world,

1057
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:07.519
<v Speaker 1>but he also points towards like perfect freedom, you know

1058
01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:09.599
<v Speaker 1>that they all want, that they all long for, and

1059
01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:12.760
<v Speaker 1>all the figures in the story struggle with, you know,

1060
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:16.239
<v Speaker 1>struggle with the temptation of the ring. You know, we

1061
01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:20.760
<v Speaker 1>see Frodo all throughout the story, and everybody seems to

1062
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.400
<v Speaker 1>exist on that spectrum somewhere, right, every figure seems to

1063
01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:27.760
<v Speaker 1>exist on the spectrum of how how dangerous is the

1064
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:31.280
<v Speaker 1>ring to them. Even with the Hobbits. You know, you

1065
01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:34.719
<v Speaker 1>have Gollum who's completely given over to it, and then

1066
01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:37.840
<v Speaker 1>you have Bilbo, who's more given over to it. Frodo

1067
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:40.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, becomes more given over to it over the

1068
01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:43.679
<v Speaker 1>course of having it with him. And then Sam seems

1069
01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:48.039
<v Speaker 1>to be the most capable of being detached from it,

1070
01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:51.320
<v Speaker 1>even though he's not perfectly you know, capable of being

1071
01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:52.039
<v Speaker 1>detached from it.

1072
01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:59.000
<v Speaker 3>So in fair im here maybe the closest among the

1073
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:02.320
<v Speaker 3>regular Church is the closest to being able to go

1074
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:05.960
<v Speaker 3>away with it. But even he, I think, experiences the

1075
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:11.079
<v Speaker 3>temptation in his discussion with Sam, and proto he feels it,

1076
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:14.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, which Bambadill doesn't even seem to feel it.

1077
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:18.119
<v Speaker 3>He feels the poll he knows the honor he could

1078
01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:21.679
<v Speaker 3>get from his father, at least briefly, but he is

1079
01:02:21.719 --> 01:02:24.159
<v Speaker 3>able to to resist it.

1080
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:31.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, yeah for sure. Well, Well, Keith, this has

1081
01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:34.280
<v Speaker 1>been this has been just a really fascinating discussion.

1082
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:35.039
<v Speaker 2>Great.

1083
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I just I love talking about Tom Bombadill. He

1084
01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:43.440
<v Speaker 1>he he is a He's one of the best characters

1085
01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:48.559
<v Speaker 1>in the story. He's endlessly fascinating, and you know, part

1086
01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:50.440
<v Speaker 1>of it just feels like we just kind of scratched

1087
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:52.519
<v Speaker 1>the surface on him.

1088
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:55.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, you know, part of me is wondering. You

1089
01:02:55.159 --> 01:02:58.199
<v Speaker 2>mentioned the beginning, how we mentioned that he's you know,

1090
01:02:58.199 --> 01:03:02.760
<v Speaker 2>he's obviously he's very much missed from the Peter Jackson films,

1091
01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:06.199
<v Speaker 2>And part of me wonders, especially after this discussion, if

1092
01:03:06.199 --> 01:03:09.440
<v Speaker 2>that's just because like he, like Jackson, just didn't want

1093
01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:12.079
<v Speaker 2>to get it wrong, Like he couldn't he couldn't quite

1094
01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:16.760
<v Speaker 2>figure out who this was, what what he was, how

1095
01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:20.360
<v Speaker 2>to portray him, you know, And part of me, honestly

1096
01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:22.840
<v Speaker 2>is like, I don't know. I think I'd rather not

1097
01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:24.920
<v Speaker 2>see him at all than see it done wrong.

1098
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:26.760
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I've heard that. I feel like now

1099
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.480
<v Speaker 1>that you say that, I feel like I heard that

1100
01:03:28.679 --> 01:03:31.079
<v Speaker 1>was actually Jackson's excuses. He was just kind of like

1101
01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:33.960
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know what to do with Tom Bombadil, Like, yeah,

1102
01:03:34.039 --> 01:03:36.519
<v Speaker 1>I just didn't see how to mean he's.

1103
01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:40.679
<v Speaker 2>Intimidating, Like it's very because I mean, he's obviously it's

1104
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:43.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's part of the enigma. Right, he's great,

1105
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and he's small. I mean he's you.

1106
01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:46.519
<v Speaker 1>Don't quite know.

1107
01:03:47.719 --> 01:03:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just put myself in in Peter Jackson's shoes,

1108
01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:53.360
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, I don't even know how I would

1109
01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:55.400
<v Speaker 2>do this. I got it, How could I do this right?

1110
01:03:55.480 --> 01:03:56.199
<v Speaker 3>I got enough to.

1111
01:03:56.119 --> 01:03:58.079
<v Speaker 1>Figure out here. I can't like Tom, I can't figure

1112
01:03:58.119 --> 01:03:59.719
<v Speaker 1>out I can't figure out the enigma.

1113
01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:03.400
<v Speaker 3>Know, it would be so easy to get him wrong

1114
01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:07.719
<v Speaker 3>and make that very slowly looking part of the Yeah, yeah.

1115
01:04:07.679 --> 01:04:11.760
<v Speaker 1>It definitely it would be very difficult to uh, for

1116
01:04:11.880 --> 01:04:16.360
<v Speaker 1>anybody to get that, to get that character right for sure. Well,

1117
01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:21.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna I'm gonna close the last line from the

1118
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:24.320
<v Speaker 1>article here, not the very last line. But I thought

1119
01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:27.360
<v Speaker 1>this was really good, you say, Keith, he Tom is

1120
01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:30.079
<v Speaker 1>a non Middle Earth being who was drawn into Middle Earth.

1121
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:33.119
<v Speaker 1>Tolkien knew this, but keeping Tom Bombadil in Middle Earth

1122
01:04:33.159 --> 01:04:36.320
<v Speaker 1>allowed Tolkien another means to do something he felt was necessary.

1123
01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:39.199
<v Speaker 1>It provided him a means by which he might absorb

1124
01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the Roman Catholic religious element that was so important to

1125
01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:44.239
<v Speaker 1>him personally into the story of the Lord of the Rings.

1126
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:48.679
<v Speaker 1>You know, I just I love this idea because I'm

1127
01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:51.480
<v Speaker 1>a I'm a big fan of like you know, all

1128
01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:54.679
<v Speaker 1>the like paranormal stuff you know in our own world,

1129
01:04:54.679 --> 01:04:57.039
<v Speaker 1>and like, you know, what's going on with these weird

1130
01:04:57.079 --> 01:04:59.159
<v Speaker 1>stories of things that happen and they just don't make

1131
01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:02.679
<v Speaker 1>any sense and there's no explanation for them, but there

1132
01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:05.639
<v Speaker 1>they are. The evidence is there for them, and it's

1133
01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:09.199
<v Speaker 1>almost like in this world, this fantasy world, Tom Bombadil

1134
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.119
<v Speaker 1>is like a paranormal He's like a paranormal figure in

1135
01:05:12.159 --> 01:05:15.000
<v Speaker 1>the fantasy world of Middle Earth. He's like, no one

1136
01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:17.360
<v Speaker 1>knows exactly what's going on with him, and he doesn't

1137
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:19.519
<v Speaker 1>actually make sense, but there he is.

1138
01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:25.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I think that was that was the fascinating

1139
01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:27.400
<v Speaker 3>thing about that letter in the Lord of the Rings

1140
01:05:27.440 --> 01:05:30.679
<v Speaker 3>Reader's Dad where taught, where Tulkien himself said, he really

1141
01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:33.840
<v Speaker 3>doesn't he is otherworldly like you were saying. He's he

1142
01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:36.719
<v Speaker 3>comes from a different world and it just intersects with

1143
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:41.880
<v Speaker 3>that world and it's you know, at the end of it,

1144
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:44.920
<v Speaker 3>he says he's fatherless. He has no Tolkien wrote, Tom

1145
01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:48.960
<v Speaker 3>Bombadil is fatherless. He has no historical origin in the

1146
01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:52.079
<v Speaker 3>world described in the Word of the Rings. Right, he

1147
01:05:52.199 --> 01:05:55.679
<v Speaker 3>came in from outside, and so all the all the

1148
01:05:55.719 --> 01:06:00.719
<v Speaker 3>looking for his historical origin in that world might just

1149
01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:03.280
<v Speaker 3>be prooveless if what Tolkien says in that letter is

1150
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:08.760
<v Speaker 3>is what he actually mean to say, it's a it's somebody,

1151
01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:11.239
<v Speaker 3>it's the stage human peeking behind the screen. There is

1152
01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:13.599
<v Speaker 3>a fourth wall being broken in here.

1153
01:06:14.800 --> 01:06:17.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, it's like Tolkien was like, everything else is

1154
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:20.079
<v Speaker 1>so organic in this in Middle Earth, and then I'll

1155
01:06:20.119 --> 01:06:22.000
<v Speaker 1>in Tolkien's is like and I'm just gonna put him

1156
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:24.239
<v Speaker 1>right here. And uh.

1157
01:06:24.559 --> 01:06:26.639
<v Speaker 3>I think that's the thing that has caused this to

1158
01:06:26.679 --> 01:06:30.519
<v Speaker 3>be debated for fifty years when you know how much

1159
01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:35.039
<v Speaker 3>he prized consistency, right, and how how they kept him

1160
01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:37.559
<v Speaker 3>from ever finishing the silmar really and it's really hard

1161
01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:40.280
<v Speaker 3>to conceive of him leaving a character in that he

1162
01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:41.719
<v Speaker 3>knows isn't consistent.

1163
01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:46.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, Tom Baumbadil that the sunglasses come down slowly

1164
01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:52.760
<v Speaker 1>on Tolkien deal with it. Yeah yeah, all right. Well cool.

1165
01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:57.039
<v Speaker 1>So your website is Keithmatheson dot org and you actually

1166
01:06:57.079 --> 01:07:01.159
<v Speaker 1>have several other writings on Tolkiennian topic. Do you want

1167
01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:03.079
<v Speaker 1>to maybe briefly mention a little bit about some of

1168
01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:04.320
<v Speaker 1>those other articles.

1169
01:07:06.199 --> 01:07:09.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, the two that popped in mind initially is one

1170
01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:14.320
<v Speaker 3>I wrote about the Silmarillion, the Endings, where I was

1171
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:18.000
<v Speaker 3>looking at the endings of the Silmarillion, the earlier versions

1172
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:21.280
<v Speaker 3>of the Silmarillion and comparing those to the ending of

1173
01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:27.159
<v Speaker 3>the Quinta Silmarillion in the published version, and arguing that

1174
01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:29.719
<v Speaker 3>we might be able to make a case that this

1175
01:07:29.840 --> 01:07:32.639
<v Speaker 3>might be because Christopher mentions that there are some things he

1176
01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:35.760
<v Speaker 3>regretted in editing, and I'm just throwing out there the

1177
01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:38.719
<v Speaker 3>possibility that maybe this is one that had he not

1178
01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:43.599
<v Speaker 3>pushed to finish that thing so quickly, it might have

1179
01:07:43.679 --> 01:07:47.440
<v Speaker 3>been worth considering keeping the bulk of the original ending

1180
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:50.360
<v Speaker 3>with the second prophecy of Mendos, and then the other

1181
01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:53.559
<v Speaker 3>one I wrote, which probably caused more aggravations of people

1182
01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:57.360
<v Speaker 3>than any of them, is one about my thoughts on

1183
01:07:57.480 --> 01:08:00.920
<v Speaker 3>Peter Jackson trilogy, where I just talk about the things

1184
01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:02.840
<v Speaker 3>I really love about it and the things that were

1185
01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:10.079
<v Speaker 3>more we'll say, just problematic. So those two gouts and

1186
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:12.400
<v Speaker 3>responses from people, gotcha.

1187
01:08:12.679 --> 01:08:15.719
<v Speaker 1>And just just scrolling through, I'm seeing, you know, an

1188
01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:19.439
<v Speaker 1>article on on I Know Linda La which you call

1189
01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:24.960
<v Speaker 1>Tolkien's most beautiful work, as well as an article on Mythopia.

1190
01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Uh and in comparison of Tolkien and Lewis. So lots

1191
01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:30.760
<v Speaker 1>of good stuff, lots of good Tolkien stuff over here

1192
01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:33.720
<v Speaker 1>for you know, for our listeners to check out for sure.

1193
01:08:34.119 --> 01:08:38.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for ravenous Tolkien fans, absolutely yeah, more food for thought.

1194
01:08:40.520 --> 01:08:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, fantastic, Well, Keith, thank you so much for joining us.

1195
01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:46.439
<v Speaker 3>Fantastic, Thank you for inviting me.

1196
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:48.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and just thank you for the time you spent

1197
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:51.000
<v Speaker 1>writing this article and uh and and researching it putting

1198
01:08:51.000 --> 01:08:54.279
<v Speaker 1>it together. It's a really just an excellent, you know,

1199
01:08:54.359 --> 01:08:57.560
<v Speaker 1>an excellent uh, you know example of I think, how

1200
01:08:57.560 --> 01:09:00.760
<v Speaker 1>to approach a topic like this and dominate everybody and

1201
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:02.880
<v Speaker 1>help us all understand what different people have said and

1202
01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:05.680
<v Speaker 1>then you know, introduce some new you know, some new

1203
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:10.119
<v Speaker 1>thoughts and evidence into consideration and maybe help us arrive

1204
01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:12.600
<v Speaker 1>a little closer at what what exactly is going on

1205
01:09:12.680 --> 01:09:13.119
<v Speaker 1>with Tom.

1206
01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:16.479
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, that's been great, absolutely great.

1207
01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, thanks a lot, Keith.

1208
01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:23.239
<v Speaker 2>Keith, it's great, same same, take.

1209
01:09:23.039 --> 01:09:28.920
<v Speaker 1>Care all right. Correspondence time corresponding. Yeah, that was kind

1210
01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:30.600
<v Speaker 1>of a that was a pretty long interview, so we're

1211
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:34.199
<v Speaker 1>going to keep the correspondence short and sweet this week.

1212
01:09:34.239 --> 01:09:36.439
<v Speaker 1>But the good thing is we got some got some

1213
01:09:36.439 --> 01:09:39.399
<v Speaker 1>fun correspondents, so good kind of correspondence I like, which

1214
01:09:39.399 --> 01:09:43.640
<v Speaker 1>is pretty much just uninhibited praise of how awesome this

1215
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:44.319
<v Speaker 1>podcast is.

1216
01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:46.039
<v Speaker 2>So that's my favorite too.

1217
01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:50.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's definitely the uh, you know,

1218
01:09:51.199 --> 01:09:56.039
<v Speaker 1>the the the feedback. It's just nice and simple just

1219
01:09:56.079 --> 01:09:59.079
<v Speaker 1>to hear praise and you know, not have to use

1220
01:09:59.119 --> 01:10:00.279
<v Speaker 1>the noggin sometimes.

1221
01:10:00.359 --> 01:10:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, but no, we're not We're not vain or anything,

1222
01:10:03.319 --> 01:10:05.680
<v Speaker 2>but it's nice to be reminded now and then of

1223
01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:06.960
<v Speaker 2>how awesome we really are.

1224
01:10:07.479 --> 01:10:11.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, not vain at all, but yeah, not vain.

1225
01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:12.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1226
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:15.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, so first off, we are going to

1227
01:10:16.279 --> 01:10:21.560
<v Speaker 1>talk about mention a couple of recent iTunes reviews. So

1228
01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:26.760
<v Speaker 1>first off, on October twenty eighth, we had Doink Doink

1229
01:10:26.840 --> 01:10:32.079
<v Speaker 1>one two three dollar sign that's awesome, awesome name, that's

1230
01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:37.319
<v Speaker 1>so good, said amazing, five stars. The best podcast I've

1231
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:40.039
<v Speaker 1>ever listened to. I would definitely recommend you listened to it.

1232
01:10:40.039 --> 01:10:42.479
<v Speaker 1>Plus it's better than any other Tolkien podcast.

1233
01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Whoa boom that that's awesome. Wow, that's my favorite kind

1234
01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:49.680
<v Speaker 2>of review right there.

1235
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:50.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1236
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, short, sweet to the point and telling us how awesome,

1237
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:57.199
<v Speaker 2>full of praise. Yes, yeah, yeah, thank you, Doink doink

1238
01:10:57.600 --> 01:10:58.880
<v Speaker 2>two to three dollars signs.

1239
01:11:00.159 --> 01:11:03.279
<v Speaker 1>Yes, thank you very much. Yeah, we uh we really

1240
01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:03.840
<v Speaker 1>appreciate it.

1241
01:11:03.880 --> 01:11:05.560
<v Speaker 2>And They have an awesome name too.

1242
01:11:06.560 --> 01:11:07.119
<v Speaker 1>What is that called?

1243
01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Is that like a handle or is it a suggest

1244
01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:12.199
<v Speaker 2>an iTunes name? What is it? Does it have a

1245
01:11:12.199 --> 01:11:12.760
<v Speaker 2>special name?

1246
01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:14.560
<v Speaker 1>Handle's fine handle?

1247
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:15.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

1248
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:16.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I like that.

1249
01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:20.479
<v Speaker 1>One, two, three yeah yeah good so yeah, thank you

1250
01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:22.159
<v Speaker 1>so much, Thank you for the kind words. And then

1251
01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:27.520
<v Speaker 1>there was another another review on October twenty ninth from

1252
01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:33.800
<v Speaker 1>Proud Dad m cal via Apple podcasts UH Rediscovered My

1253
01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:37.439
<v Speaker 1>Love of Tolkien five stars. I'm twenty seven episodes into

1254
01:11:37.439 --> 01:11:39.640
<v Speaker 1>this podcast and the end depth look into each and

1255
01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:42.439
<v Speaker 1>every chapter, starting with the film Million and now The

1256
01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Lord of the Rings has truly helped me rediscover my

1257
01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:47.880
<v Speaker 1>childhood love for everything Tolkien. And for that, I thank you.

1258
01:11:48.039 --> 01:11:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's great, awesome, And that's one of the things

1259
01:11:50.600 --> 01:11:54.479
<v Speaker 2>we you know, that we that we strive for here

1260
01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:57.399
<v Speaker 2>on the podcast. Yeah, just you know, either keeping that

1261
01:11:57.439 --> 01:12:00.119
<v Speaker 2>love going or reigniting it or helping people discover it.

1262
01:12:00.279 --> 01:12:00.479
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1263
01:12:00.479 --> 01:12:02.560
<v Speaker 1>I always love getting those those kind of notes when

1264
01:12:03.359 --> 01:12:05.319
<v Speaker 1>when folks share with us that it's you know, we've

1265
01:12:05.880 --> 01:12:09.600
<v Speaker 1>we've helped to rekindle their love. You know, it's if

1266
01:12:09.640 --> 01:12:11.720
<v Speaker 1>we can get you back in touch with Tolkien. You know,

1267
01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:13.680
<v Speaker 1>we feel like we've done a good job.

1268
01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:15.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it's a good day's work.

1269
01:12:15.479 --> 01:12:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely absolutely well.

1270
01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, proud dad.

1271
01:12:18.359 --> 01:12:22.399
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much, Proud dad. L all right, we

1272
01:12:22.439 --> 01:12:27.279
<v Speaker 1>also have a shout out over here on Twitter from

1273
01:12:27.560 --> 01:12:34.520
<v Speaker 1>Carlow Marx Carlo Marx, Carlow, Carlow, that's right, okay, Carlo

1274
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:38.439
<v Speaker 1>says at Tolkien Road, rereading the Hobbit and then Lord

1275
01:12:38.439 --> 01:12:41.199
<v Speaker 1>of the Rings been twenty years, found your podcast to

1276
01:12:41.239 --> 01:12:48.000
<v Speaker 1>go over each chapter. Good stuff. Thanksay, awesome, indeed very awesome.

1277
01:12:48.039 --> 01:12:50.840
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, Carlo. We really appreciate hearing from you,

1278
01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:58.039
<v Speaker 1>all right. And then, last but certainly not least, double

1279
01:12:58.119 --> 01:13:02.319
<v Speaker 1>check my list here. Last, but certainly not least is

1280
01:13:02.680 --> 01:13:05.800
<v Speaker 1>from Jonathan D one of our amazing patrons.

1281
01:13:05.880 --> 01:13:08.279
<v Speaker 2>M Hey Jonathan, hell lou.

1282
01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Jonathan said, Hey, guys, hope you all are doing well.

1283
01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:16.039
<v Speaker 1>I just wanted to drop a note after listening to

1284
01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:18.960
<v Speaker 1>the latest episode. Before listening to The Tolkien Road, I

1285
01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:22.079
<v Speaker 1>would have considered myself someone who liked Tolkien. But after

1286
01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:24.680
<v Speaker 1>listening to your show and rereading and reading the film Million,

1287
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:27.359
<v Speaker 1>which was much aided by your show, I am someone

1288
01:13:27.399 --> 01:13:30.439
<v Speaker 1>who loves Tolkien. Thank you for expanding my knowledge of

1289
01:13:30.479 --> 01:13:32.960
<v Speaker 1>the man and his writings. Keep up the great work.

1290
01:13:33.479 --> 01:13:36.479
<v Speaker 1>Awesome boom. That's when I'm talking. Jonathan knows where I'm

1291
01:13:36.520 --> 01:13:36.800
<v Speaker 1>coming from.

1292
01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:40.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, clearly, Well, he probably just felt the need to,

1293
01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:43.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, let you know that he's moved from like

1294
01:13:43.479 --> 01:13:48.359
<v Speaker 2>to love, just to so that you wouldn't like depatronize him. Probably,

1295
01:13:48.399 --> 01:13:50.479
<v Speaker 2>why would I ever do that, because if he's not,

1296
01:13:50.560 --> 01:13:53.199
<v Speaker 2>if he's just aker, I mean, I don't know, I

1297
01:13:53.239 --> 01:13:55.479
<v Speaker 2>don't I don't know where the wrath ends.

1298
01:13:56.439 --> 01:13:59.600
<v Speaker 1>If you're a patron, I automatically assume, I automatically assume

1299
01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:00.439
<v Speaker 1>you're a told lover.

1300
01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, Okay, I guess that's fair. So, yes, that's fair.

1301
01:14:04.119 --> 01:14:06.039
<v Speaker 1>That's you know, that's what we're here to do. Look,

1302
01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:07.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm not I'm not out there to hate, you know,

1303
01:14:07.920 --> 01:14:10.439
<v Speaker 1>mirror tolkienkers. I'm here to say that that's what this

1304
01:14:10.520 --> 01:14:13.439
<v Speaker 1>podcast exists to do, is transform people who merely like

1305
01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:15.439
<v Speaker 1>Tolkien into people who love Tolkien.

1306
01:14:15.880 --> 01:14:19.239
<v Speaker 2>And Jonathan d is proof that that we are on

1307
01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the right track.

1308
01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:24.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, total total virtual air five to Jonathan right now.

1309
01:14:24.399 --> 01:14:26.960
<v Speaker 1>So he knows that guy knows what I'm talking about.

1310
01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:30.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he does. Well, good stuff.

1311
01:14:30.279 --> 01:14:33.159
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, Thank you all so much. It's always nice to

1312
01:14:33.439 --> 01:14:37.479
<v Speaker 1>just have some just have some praise, you know, just

1313
01:14:37.560 --> 01:14:40.319
<v Speaker 1>have people saying you guys rock, guys rock. Yeah, yeah,

1314
01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:41.640
<v Speaker 1>you appreciate that.

1315
01:14:41.760 --> 01:14:42.640
<v Speaker 2>We do very much.

1316
01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:44.520
<v Speaker 1>But we'd love to hear from you whatever you got

1317
01:14:44.560 --> 01:14:48.720
<v Speaker 1>to say, right, Tolkien Roadpodcast at gmail dot com, Tolkienrooad

1318
01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:51.079
<v Speaker 1>dot com, Facebook, Twitter, wherever you want to hit us

1319
01:14:51.159 --> 01:14:54.960
<v Speaker 1>up and you can find us. We we love hearing from.

1320
01:14:54.720 --> 01:14:56.319
<v Speaker 2>You, yes always.

1321
01:14:56.600 --> 01:14:59.479
<v Speaker 1>All right. I think that about that about wraps up

1322
01:14:59.520 --> 01:15:00.000
<v Speaker 1>this episode.

1323
01:15:00.199 --> 01:15:04.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, all right, cool, Well that's it's probably good. Just

1324
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:05.239
<v Speaker 2>been on the longer side.

1325
01:15:05.439 --> 01:15:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, special special thanks to our amazing patrons.

1326
01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:10.039
<v Speaker 2>All of you are amazing.

1327
01:15:10.119 --> 01:15:13.039
<v Speaker 1>All of you are amazing, and especially the following Shannon S.

1328
01:15:13.159 --> 01:15:16.479
<v Speaker 1>Brian oh, Emilio, p Zeke F, James A, James L,

1329
01:15:16.600 --> 01:15:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Chris L. Chuck f Azia v Ish of The Hammer,

1330
01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:20.239
<v Speaker 1>Teresa C.

1331
01:15:20.600 --> 01:15:23.520
<v Speaker 2>David of Pints with Jack, Jonathan D, Eric S.

1332
01:15:23.720 --> 01:15:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Joey S, Eric B. Caitlin of t with Tolkien, Matt L.

1333
01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:31.319
<v Speaker 1>Johanna T. Todd, G Mis Anonymous.

1334
01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Sam and thank you all so much, you guys.

1335
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:37.199
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for being patrons, and thank you

1336
01:15:37.439 --> 01:15:38.079
<v Speaker 1>for listening.

1337
01:15:38.239 --> 01:15:40.439
<v Speaker 2>Yes, all of you, we really really appreciate it.

1338
01:15:40.520 --> 01:15:41.640
<v Speaker 1>And we will talk at you next time.

1339
01:15:41.720 --> 01:16:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Bye y'all, Bye bye again