Speaker 1: Hello, everyone, Welcome back to a new episode of the
Poker Go Podcast. My name is Donny Peters, and I
will not be the only voice you are hearing on
this microphone. I got my guy Remco Rinkim along side
of me. Plus we got some audio from plenty of
players as well. We're gonna get into all of that
as we recap day one of the w s AP
Main Event Final Table. I guess day nine overall, ten, whatever, twelve, eighteen.
I feel like today was four days in one with
how long these guys played, well over one hundred hands
on day one. The plan coming into the day was
to go from nine down to six. They didn't even
make it there. They only got down to seven. They
ended up calling it quits at the end of level
forty one. Lucas Jumalan's the chip leader. Han Feng had
a surge. He's second in chips. Greg went the other way.
He's the short stack, but he's still alive. It just
absolutely crazy scenes here at Horseshoe Down on the Loss
of Vegas trip Remcro just first off the cuff, thoughts,
what did you see here? The atmosphere, whatever you want
to throw at me, just throw it.
Speaker 2: At me, Well, this is why past my bedtime.
Speaker 1: That's very true, very true.
Speaker 2: I gotta correct myself. We've we've now made day ten.
This was day nine. And the reason I was thinking
of that is because I spoke to Michael Gagliano, who
said that it's important to mention that he's made day ten,
which is not something you ever say when you play
poker poker tournaments. But yeah, it's it's it's it's kind
of surreal, this this final table business. I was never
fortunate enough to travel out for November nine because I
didn't live in Vegas at the time, so my final
liple memories of the main event are sort of in
the post November nine era, and I've been to all
of them since, which have all been really cool experiences
in and of itself. And this is another first for
us because you know, at poker Go, we're no longer
doing our thing the way we have in the past,
so we're a little bit more on the sidelines, which
you know, it's you know, it's neither good nor bad
for our experience, but it does change the way we
we sort of move around here a little bit and
you know, trying to find our footing. But the one
thing that I think cannot be understated is how freaking
cool this whole set is, this whole stage, the entire production.
Of course, tons of people from pocer Goo is still
you know, involved in some capacity or at least people
that we work with at poker Go. And just the energy,
the atmosphere, the excitement from from the players, the rail
you can even see, you know, the staff is buzzing,
the waiters are walking one step faster. There's just a
certain energy in the room. Ran into Michaelmas, Rocky, Maria
j Brin Kenny was walking around. There was like a
VIP lounge for the sponsor Solana. So all in all,
fantastic first night of poker. From that perspective, the atmosphere
was definitely great, but don him curious to hear your thoughts.
I definitely felt like things fell very flat when you
look at this from a poker fan slash consumer perspective,
just because of you know, I guess the expected style
of play coming into the final table.
Speaker 1: I think there's two different buckets for how fans would
look at this first day of the Final table. There
are the diehard poker enthusiasts who I think you and
I would probably fall under, and a lot of the
listeners of this podcast would also fall into that category
as well, where they love the shit right, they don't
care if it might be ICM ball out there and
it's a little bit more boring, and the pre flop
all ins just aren't there every other hand and that
sort of stuff. But then on the other side of things,
you know, this is now back on ESPN. This first
night was on ESPN two. They're going to be moving
to ESPN one or just ESPN on Wednesday or sorry,
Tuesday and Wednesday. And if you're just flipping through the channels,
you're looking for something to land on. The kids have
gone to sleep, you know, maybe the wife is dozing
off as well. You're like, what am I gonna land on?
There's not really that many sports on, especially this late
at night. Oh what, Poker's back on ESPN. But then
you start watching it, and if you're more of a
casual viewer era as Nick Shulman might say, a civilian,
you maybe you're like, well, what this is so boring?
No one's doing anything. You know, there's one guy dressed
like mister Wall Street bets. There's another guy looking like
do Flamingo over there with the pink boa no buttons
on his shirt. That's Han Fang. We'll get into all
that sort of stuff later. But for as loud as
the players and the rail and everything, the actual play
wasn't that loud, right, So I think it depending on
what side of a fan you are. If you're the
die hard, you love it and you like getting into
the nitty grittiness of it all, and you don't mind
the small wall approach and the tight folds that people
are making because you understand the ICM dynamics at play
and that's the game within the game. But for the
casual fan, you might be like, where's the aces versus queens?
Where's the suck out, where's the ace king versus you know,
the the pocket tens and the guy flops an ace
and rivers that, Like, where is all this sort of stuff?
Like what is happening? So it's hard, right. I thought
it was a good first night. I thought that night
one was gonna go like this. You know, we had
some pre we had our regular work meetings, and I
know some of the people were saying like, oh, it's
gonna go so fast. I thought it was so fast,
and I was like, no, no shot. Like, if you
watch these guys playing on day eight getting down to
the final table, a lot of them once the page
jumps got bigger and bigger, it was like, Okay, I
gotta kind of lock down. And that's also what allowed
Lucas Jumlan to get that huge chip lead, right, And
then you couple that with the fact that they give
these guys two and a half to three weeks off.
Everyone's going home, all these players, I mean, even someone
like Greg Mueller, Like I know, he's not necessarily the
most studied player out there, and you touched a lot
on the Faciase podcast with him, by the way, listen
to that if you haven't already, it's back on this
feed or on the Pokagro YouTube channel. But even someone
like him, he sure has like Sean Buchannan in his
ear like Okay, you should do this, you should do that.
And that was evidence on the second hand of the
day when Michael Gagliano opens early Position and Mueller fold
days Jack suited, So it's like immediately out of the gate,
you're like, oh, that's how Greg's gonna approach this, and
He's the last one you would expect to approach it
like that. Now, the play did kind of loosen up
a little bit, and players acted a little bit more
cavalier as things went on, But early on it was
very evident that the players were going to just kind
of lock in. And I think part of that is, like,
obviously the pay jumps getting much bigger. You're now under
the final table, bright lights, everyone is watching. You know,
you're on ESPN two Live. You probably don't want to
make an ass to yourself and make some big mistake,
And then you probably had a lot of people in
your ears being like, Hey, this is the chip position,
this is your ICM value, this is how you got
to approach things. These are the only hands that you
can raise from early position like that, you can't do this,
this and this. You can't just be defending from the
big blind with the Queen three off suit anymore. Like
it's not just how it is. You can't go broke
with top pair or second pair. If you have a
flush straw, don't go nuts. Like all that sort of
stuff just starts getting into everyone's minds and then they
kind of just play everything a bit more close to
the vest, which we saw you also had two short
stacks who really weren't going anywhere. That didn't help, you know,
the speed of play or the excitement of play out there.
But again, the diehard in me did enjoy it. I
thought the rails were pretty good overall.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 1: I did want find myself wanting a little bit more
chanting like they did get after its Yeah, like that's
when it started to really pick up, right, But before
that I expected to see a little bit more chanting,
mostly from I think Greg's rail Mueller Israel, you know.
But yeah, I thought that was good overall, and I'm
excited to see what happens going forward. Han Feng had
himself one hell of a day. Started second to last
and Chips finished second to first, and Chips so had
an incredible run of things. Probably, I mean, we'll talk
to him a little bit later. I interviewed him afterwards,
and he'll tell you like, he couldn't have imagined a
better start. Lucas Jumlan, he started off kind of hot,
then he had a lull where it was like, oh, oh,
here comes the slide, and then he hit this run
of hands where it was like five six, seven, eight,
hands in a row where he just won them all
and it was like boom, I'm back over two hundred million.
Speaker 2: Here we go.
Speaker 1: Greg Mueller had some interesting moments throughout it, like he
was he pulled out the check dark at one point
we were both like, what the hell is happening here?
Speaker 2: I think it's important with this in the Jumalan first
because you know he touched briefly upon getting coached by
Patrick Leonard, and also how you know, and also you know,
me being face to face with him talking to him
just minutes after play concluded. Just the guy just seems
to be made for this spot. He's so cold, he's
so relaxed, he just seems ready for the moment. And
that was great to hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, let's just go to it right now.
So here is Lucas Jumalan immediately following the bagging of
chips talking to Remco.
Speaker 2: So, Lucas, this first night for you, it seems as
though you had a game plan, you stuck to it.
You were able to pressure your opponents, which is something
you of course have to do with the big stack.
But how you look back on it, are you satisfied
with where you are right now?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean satisfied to still be in the tournament
right and what the chip lead still is great and
we're just gonna adapt to the situation tomorrow and whatever
whatever they throw out as we'll be okay.
Speaker 2: Patrick Leonard told me and Donnie before play started. He goes,
I'm on team USA for today, and he posted some
stuff on his stories studying with you, perhaps running some sims.
What wasn't been like to work with someone like Pats?
Speaker 3: You know, he's the emptt goat, so it's just been
truly an honor and I can't thank him enough. And
you know, I wouldn't have played nearly as well today
if I hadn't put.
Speaker 4: In the work with him.
Speaker 3: I'm just so thankful for all of his support and
time that he's put in him.
Speaker 2: What is this daven like? Was it what you expected
it to be? Did you feel any more adrenaline? Were
able to sort of keep a levelhead?
Speaker 3: You know, I've like never gotten too high, too low.
Speaker 4: It's just like not me.
Speaker 3: So you know, I'm I'm good. I'm ready to go
tomorrow and we'll it'll probably set in after it's all over,
but you know, I'm just just right in the wave.
Speaker 1: So one of the things I would be curious and
we can never like replay this. But had Lucas Jummelan
ended the night, had the night come to an end
when he was on the slide, I wonder how he
would have talked to you right right like, because he
got down to a run one hundred and fifty hundred
and sixty million, right, and it would look like not
that he was really ever in jeopardy of losing the chipley,
but you had Lori Sascelotti starting to come up. You
had Han Fang starting to come up at the end,
and it was like, wait, hold on. Even at one
point you had Greg Mueller starting to come up. He
hit over eighty million, it was like, wait, is this
gonna start to go the wrong way for Jumalan. Obviously
he did course correct towards the end. He caught some
heat to finish things out. So spirits are high. But
you know, I just in an alternate universe, I would
have been like, hey, your first question would have been
something like, hey, maybe it didn't go as you might
have expected. You know, how are you going to kind
of regroup overnight, refocus, lock back in for tomorrow? I said,
On the last podcast, when I was doing it myself,
just kind of previewing the table, I said, I think
this kid wants the smoke, meaning I think he wants
to be champion, he wants the spotlight, and I don't
think that. I think there are two different things to want.
There's wanting to win the WSP main event. There's wanting
to win ten million dollars and like, you get the
glory of the bracelet all that sort of stuff, But
do you really want to be Poker's ambassador and be
in the spotlight. That is an entirely different thing, and
it's kind of just thrust on players, and I don't
think everyone in their heart of hearts would admit that
they want that. They want to everything else and then
they don't want to have to do that sort of stuff.
I think Lucas Jumelan wants it all, every single part
of it, which I think is great.
Speaker 2: And I think Patter Lenard also tweeted or put it
on Instagram that this kid is more ready than anyone
to be the champion, And you make a really good point.
There's a difference between wanting to win ten million and
wanting to be the champion. And carried carried that torture
or how you want to call it, because that was
very apparent from the way he was sort of carrying
himself around the table. He also, you know, in true
chip leader style. You know, we think back of guys
like Joe McKee and kry Aldemir Jose Ensan who had
dominating chip leads. He also played like a chip leader.
And there was one streak where you and I were
watching as we were dipping in and out. I think
he won five or six hands in a row, and
then a double up hand Fang, which was sort of
a pivotal hand. That sort of change changed things around
for Feng, who had been short for a very long time,
literally just waiting for for a hand for him then
to get it in. I was thinking it was Queen
Jack of clubs on Queen ten nine with two clubs
versus Ace four with only the ace of clubs from
Jumalan that allowed him to double up, and that sort
of you know, halted his I guess way of running
over the table for just a few minutes, but he
continued pressing and pressing and pressing, and he back to
two hundred and twelve million chips. Eighty five big blinds
Han Feg second and chips with forty three bigs, which
you know very unlikely, but you had a chance to
talk to him. I did talk to him afterwards. Cameras
were all over this guy, rightfully so, wearing that pink bow.
Speaker 1: As I mentioned. If you guys haven't seen the photos,
if you haven't seen the coverage, you need to check
it out. For what Han Feng showed up in I
had to ask him about it in the interview. Also
asked him about his day. Here is me talking to
Han Feng immediately following play. All right, Han Feng, Yeah,
second shortest to come into the day, second biggest stack,
going through the secondary of the final table. Could you
have imagined a better day?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 6: This is this is like if I could choose.
Speaker 2: An outcome, this was it. This was it.
Speaker 6: I don't think I get much better way unless like
somehow I have more chips in lucas, but that's almost
impossible mathematically, right, But this is as good as it gets.
So second and chips come back tomorrow five PM. A
lot of time to prepare. I'm a little sweaty, a
little stinky, very thirsty. Uh yeah, they got really good
shots on me. I can't wait to see those.
Speaker 1: So talk to me about the mindset where you're battling
for as one of the shorter stacks for much of
the day, right, and then you get that late serge.
You know, how is you just stay in the moment
and be able to focus through it all when you're
you're when you're rushing towards the end of the day.
Speaker 6: It's just hand by hand, man, That's all I can say.
It's just hand by hand. Uh, just know my strategy
go as I like. It's just one hand at a time.
I mean, it's it's just as simple as that. I
don't have like a uh, I'm not like trying to
do anything. It's just you know, I know my spot,
I know my hand, and then I just I just
play that no no ego, no.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It kept going over to your rail quite a bit.
Maybe not the biggest rail here at final table, but
definitely one that you're close with. You talked a lot,
you got Michael Joe's up there helping you coaching. Just
talk to me about having that support system right behind you.
Speaker 2: It's awesome.
Speaker 6: It's kind of like a nice little mental stability sort
of thing.
Speaker 7: Keep me saying, and yeah.
Speaker 1: He got picked out.
Speaker 4: The guy was screaming. I don't know if you guys heard.
Speaker 1: That's unfortunate.
Speaker 6: But yeah, he's like a lot of people here that
are like big brothers to me. Love the support from Houston,
repping Houston. Maybe we do it again, Tomaio, And now
I'm next.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the fit. I got, what went
into it? What's the inspiration behind it?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 6: So I told the other interviewers early on before we started,
this is I'm dope Flamingo from One Piece, which is
One Piece of anime. I think it's the most profitable
anime there is. And I was watching so he's like
in one of the he was one of the arcs
in one of the arcs are I'm very tired in
one of the major arcs of One Piece where everything
starts to happen. This is the main villain in that.
And and I was watching all this during days like
three to six on day breaks.
Speaker 2: I just got very inspired. I felt the calling.
Speaker 6: So I bought this uniform across student and I was
just the biggest thing was hoping his fit right, and a.
Speaker 1: Fit amazing, A fit amazing.
Speaker 2: I can't complain.
Speaker 6: So, yeah, and it's good TV.
Speaker 2: It's good TV.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's definitely great TV.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: All right, last question here, So now you're second in
Chip's heading forward to the second day. What's the mentality now?
You know, before you're probably trying to ladder up a
couple of spots, but now it's like, I got a
shot to win this game.
Speaker 2: Thing.
Speaker 4: I was never trying the ladder, that's my answer.
Speaker 1: You heard Hans ay they're tired, thirsty. Right before the interview,
before I officially started asking him questions, He's like, is
there a water around? There's no water around. I was like, no, man,
it just looks like empty beers everywhere.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's the opposite of Greg Mueller who kept saying, man,
drink so much water. I have to peel like every
he So.
Speaker 1: For people who don't know a little bit inside baseball here,
but we were set up in media row. There's a
curtain between us. Then there's a bunch of like the
salon of VIP Lounge or the production area, et cetera.
We're a good fifty to one hundred feet away from
the table. We can't exactly see the table due to
the curtains. But they didn't have official breaks due to
the coverage, right, But they did have commercial breaks of
course on ESPN two, and during those, let's say anywhere
from two minutes to maybe five, six, seven minutes of
a commercial break, the players would get up and run
to the bathroom. And Mueller for sure was the most
frequent bathroom goer by far. Oh yeah, Laurie Sascolotti always
went swell those two. Han Fang, I would say it
was a probably third. But other than that, I don't
think I saw Lucas Jumlan one time. I'm pretty sure
he probably didn't drink any water today. Mario Boose I
didn't see him at all, you know. But but Mueller
was back here a plenty, which was which was pretty crazy.
Mueller seemed in good spirits overall with things. He was
kind of all over the place, as I think we
would expect coming into this final table.
Speaker 2: His brother was here with his kids.
Speaker 1: His brother was here with his kids. He had he
had pretty sure the biggest rail. They were loud at times,
not tallest, yes, for sure. Rick Talckett, former NHL player
coach of the Philadelphia Flyers, called a kid.
Speaker 2: Called him a kid.
Speaker 1: It was such a hot It was the kids just
out there doing it like it's such such a hockey thing.
That was cool to see. I didn't see Sean Buchanan,
but I didn't really walk out there.
Speaker 2: Sean mcannon was probably covered under a hoodie like he
always does. I know.
Speaker 1: David Odie be bigger friend of the pod, always a listener.
He was out there as well with his wife. They
were in the FBT shirts. I gotta say, I'm not
I'm not digging the Shadow hat. I know what it is.
It's obviously for Shadow Creek, but it just treads a
bit too much on Jerry Yang the Shadow.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so funny.
Speaker 1: Mueller's nickname is FBT, and I think if you tune in,
you'll be like, oh, this guy is the Shadow. You
start calling in the Shadow. Well he's not the Shadow.
The fucking Shadow is Jerry Yang. Okay, that's just how
it is. I'm sorry, Greg.
Speaker 2: I thought maybe he like come out with like a
hockey themed hat or something, but the shadow thing is
just stuck. And he mentioned it on the podcast that
I did with him, how Mad Glands and Natcho were
calling him the Shadow, which obviously you can't change your
nickname mid career, which is not allowed.
Speaker 1: It's like a guy in his corner Bucky. People call
Matthew Wantman Bucky, and I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 2: But no, it's not Bucky. No, it's the same. Whenever
someone has Bucky. I'm like, I didn't know Sean M.
Cannon was here, and then he's I done. He read
for some stats. Yeah, let's go. Okay. I ran some
numbers using the old AI shadowed by by the Poconoos,
doing hand for hand coverage. It's it's a it's a job.
Someone has to do it, and I'm.
Speaker 1: Happy to think I was. I was slamming refresh. I'm like,
what hand are they on? What's going on? You know
you have to It's it's God's work they're they're doing
out there.
Speaker 2: So okay, here we go. One and thirty one hands played.
I believe that's correct. My talian perhaps ended a bit
too soon because they were still playing by the time
we were recording on the On the broadcast, let me
just refresh real quick. Jumalan had thirty four preflub raises Geez,
and second best was Jamie Shavell, who had eighteen preflub
raises and Shavell was all in five times. Han Feng
was all in seven times, So like goes to show
that those guys were getting after it. If we look
at the standings now, Shavell was not rewarded for his aggression.
He's got thirteen bigs coming into the next day.
Speaker 1: But one of those all ins he lost to Rami Hamoud. Yes,
and he had the tens versus the acet Queen that
left him pretty short and he had to fight from
there but still alive.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly, And that's whole that's the whole thing.
It's all about survival. Greg Mueller went into that as well.
I spoke to him at length. The first question, by
the way, I'll tee this up. First question is is
inside baseball And only if you listen to the podcast
that I did with him will it all make sense.
But Greg explains it a little bit. So tonight chicken
in broccoli or ice cream?
Speaker 4: You know what, there's no plan. I mean, we might
end up at Johnny Rockets, which would have milkshake, which
is like ice cream, will not be chicken and broccoli.
But not because I'm tilted or anything. I'm just hungry.
So whatever I'm craving, you know. I feel like I
made one air. It's arguably hard to say it was
an air. I played the hand poorly from start to finish.
If I three bet, I win the hand. If I
lead on the flop, I win the hand. If I
check raise, I win the hand. If I bet the turn,
I win the hand. The only way I don't win
the hand is when I check fold the river, which
I had full intentions of check calling. That was a
big pot. It was a big turning point. I'd be
at the time, like endless chips, a little irritated about that.
Other than that, I'm very happy with my play. I
didn't get too many cards, and I battle in there
so there would be no reason for me to go
on to the ice cream. And I realize how blessed
I am see this rail, I mean incredible to see
incredible like these guys took time from their lives, flying
in from everywhere and relentless cheer support like positivity. I mean,
it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2: There's so many things that I can bring up here.
We could talk for an hour straight just about tonight
because I saw so many, so many different things unfold
in front of my eyes. But I want to start
with the rail because the amount of noise, the amount
of beverages that were being consumed, the amount of just
overall cheer that was going on. Yeah, does that add
more pressure to perform because you don't want these guys
to come here and girls for a ninth place finish.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, truthfully, there's a bit of pressure. I said,
you know, these I gotta, we gotta you know, I
want to do it for them. So, but I mean
the amount they fired me up and they could see
maybe I was hunched over a little bit, you know,
st pepped me up, and when I did win a hand,
never stopping singing okay, you know, like in a classy,
positive way, going at it with the other rail like
it was. I mean, I'm a winner winner. It was
just based on that.
Speaker 2: You know, his name escases me of the code to
Philadelphia Flyers coach talk Rick talking. He was on the
broadcast in the ESPN and he called you a kid.
I thought that was the most purest hockey sort of
speeches or hockey speak, if you will, y, And I
just love how it felt like, you know, I could
feel the camaraderie. I could feel sort of the spirit
that you guys all sort of carrys as hockey players play.
Playing with the alumni, do you feel like you you
have all their support and how what is it like
to have that sort of I guess you know hockey
spirit here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's that's what's so great about the
hockey community. You know, we're we're all the boys, and
it's a team game. Everybody's in it for each other,
and you have fun. You juice each other, you make
fun of each other, but it's all in good fun
and you have each other's backs. And like I said,
it's uh so fortunate just for this experience is some
I'll never forget ever, regardless of how much money I
make or what place I finish. I mean, this is
just a moment I'll cherish forever.
Speaker 2: Important question about the hand that you are a little
frustrated with. What was it in the moment that didn't
allow you to make those better decisions?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I don't. I just kept changing my game plan
throughout the hand, and you know, ultimately I got to
give him credit. He barreled very big, put his not
his tournament life because he had me cover. But if
I call that he is extremely crippled and I'm cruising,
and hey, he made a good play. He didn't have
a better hand, and he won the plot. So I
don't want to take anything away from him. Just a
little frustrated myself because I feel like I had a
beat on him and I had a plan and just
kind of straight a bit from him.
Speaker 2: You know, final thing here? What sort of preparation or
maybe contemplation is necessary for tomorrow?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I need a good sleep and I just got
to have a good, good, good energy and positive attitude
because you know, these things as you see change so fast.
Hand hit a three outer and now he's crushing, right,
it just goes so quick. He's not crushing it's numberin level,
but he's crushing it. You know.
Speaker 2: That's right here.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean you just have to come back
and not give up. Be positive. Hey, if somebody told
me you're going to be the shortest stack with seven
left at the main event on the final table, Like,
where would I sign the dotted line? Like do you
know what I mean? So I can't I can't be negative.
I have to be positive, coming with a good attitude
and ready to go. Hey, don't kill me.
Speaker 1: Out down, but not out is Greg Mueller. And you
guys heard him talk about it there, and we want
to get into this hand because it was one of
the bigger, more interesting and also entertaining hands at the
final table. It was the one where Greg had the
King jack off from the blind against his finished counterpart
to Lourie Sascolotti, who opened queen Ate suited and then
just barreled off on the King six four five six board,
leading to a river fold from Muller, putting the best
hand in the muck and allowing Sascolotti to chip up
quite nicely. But it also allowed Mueller to drop right back.
This was right after he was kind of surging right,
He was kind of started slipping early on just just
not not like losing any really big pods. It was
more like a couple of million here, a couple of
million there.
Speaker 2: Whatever.
Speaker 1: Then he starts running back up, back up, back up.
He's got eighty million. Then he plays this big hand.
And honestly, when when we were watching it, I saw
the open, I see him call, I see the flop
come out, and I say, okay, Mueller is about to
fucking have one hundred million, Like he's about to just
cause because Sascallotti's a very interesting cat, Like he's on
one side of things, he he'll like opt to play conservative.
On the other side of things, he'll like just have
these moments. When I was like, you know what, fa yolo,
let's go like I'm the Finnish guy who likes plo.
Let's just bos the wall. So I was like, okay,
he might just like go nuts here. And when he
when Soascallotti bet the turn, I was like, oh, like
he's he's going for it. And then I was like, Midler,
you just got to click call, I know, and the
blind check was like he baffling. Yeah, So on the
so Soascallott he bets the turn, and Mueller does two
things that I thought were very interesting. One he called
within two seconds yep, and then he immediately checked dark.
And I'm like, God, this is the ubas be made
of that file table. Why are we snap calling?
Speaker 2: I listen.
Speaker 1: I know we don't want people to be tanking out there,
but the snap call check dark, I mean, that's Phil
help me, that's not Greg Mueller.
Speaker 2: I mean what was that. I have no idea, and
I think Greg still doesn't know why he did that.
I think he was, you know, actively trying to still
figure it out as we were talking.
Speaker 1: But I think it was I think it was him
just like rushing. He was rushing at the time, and
he was like whatever, I can just do no wrong,
like I'm just act act ac dak dak. And then
he got to the river and he was like, oh shit,
this guy just bet thirty five million, Like what the
heck's going on?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if he if he calls Sasklott is really
short and he's got over one hundred million, and you know,
he's basically one of the top contenders. And now we're
looking at the board. Here twenty nine point five million,
twelve big bines from Mueller. You know, Han Feng was
down to five bigs. So you know, this doesn't say much,
but you definitely sleep a lot better when you have
one hundred and six million, which is what Han Feng
now has going into day two. But Mueller still is
in there, he's still he's still fighting, he's still battling,
and he still has a chance. So that's that's obviously
good to see because he clearly had a ton of support.
Before we move on to the next interview. I just
wanted to point ot couple of small things Mike Madisow
and you know, Twitter of course is always great during
the WSP Man Event final table. You know, it has
been better in the past, and I feel like Twitter
of course has lost lost a lot of it shine
in recent years. I guess I wonder why Mike Madisaw
tweeted out watching his main event final table is so
brutal to watch. And that was quote tweeted by Sam Greenwood,
who is always negative about people's plays, which he loves
to call out in his I believe is the substack
that he has. And Sam Greenwood said, punt of the day,
punted the day exactly. Greenwood said, and I quote all
I do is criticize the play of the people at
Big FT's and the WSP. And this has been an
extremely enjoyable FT thus far. Pace, the play has been fine,
quality of poker has been good, and no one is
playing scared. So that's the Greenwood perspective. And then terms Chan,
who is just you know, tweeting. He's not responding to
this at all. Teran Chan tweets LoJack opens cut off
folds a seven suited small one Folds seven's Baby on
Folds King King nine off. I assume they're all correct, But
how do you guys watch this stuff? Obviously you know?
Indicating that, I mean that goes back to what I
was saying earlier. You have the two camps. Yeah, but
like two things can be true. Greenwood is enjoying this
from like almost like you know, an artistic perspective, like
the art of poker and all the method is involved
in it. And TAM's chan you know who is not
watching it for that type of enjoyment. He's watching it
to be entertained. Is not getting it getting that out
of this final table. And I think that really speaks
to the two different ways the game is being viewed.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I would would say that it's it's
similar to viewing soccer. A casual person who's going to
sit down and watch a ninety minute match is going
to sit there and bitch and complain and say, what
the hell is this? So no one's scoring, they're not
even taking shots, what's going on? Whereas I mean, you
and I love soccer, right and we might say, like
this is awesome, look at the flow. It's it's for
using a word you just use It's very artistic out there,
you know, whereas somebody on the more casual side of
thing that just wants the highlight reel, they're gonna do
just that, watch the highlight reel. And this is why
poker from an entertainment perspective not to go too far
down this path. But like poker on ESPN itself, just
using that as an example, because that's where this is
being aired, is almost best served as an edited episode
because the casuals will just tune in. You can put
banger after banger after banger of hands and you can
just cram it into an hour or two hours. Boom,
that's it. That's your highlight reel. Right. But then you know,
as you and I know, I mean, we work for
Poker Girl, we're live streaming all the time. Like it's
unless you are really into it, it's hard to watch
live poker. It's just it's hard to do. And like
Terrence Chance said, like I'm assuming all this stuff is correct,
and it is likely correct, but you as a viewer
at home, like you want the guy to just pile
the A seven suited, like you want to just go
all and go nuts, like you want Greg to click
call there with the King Jack like, you want all
this stuff to happen, but it's hard. I always, you know,
we always commonly mentioned. One thing that I think it
was Nick Petrangelo told you is that these guys are
trying to figure out a math exam. Yeah, at the
Final Table, that's what they're trying to do. What is
the best decision that makes me the most money in
the long run. And that is not necessarily exciting.
Speaker 2: It is not.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's just not. But that's why it's tricky
because then you stick something live like this on TV.
So a person who just wants to watch fireworks, they're
not going to get all the fireworks.
Speaker 2: And that's why I was going to close out what
I was trying to say by saying that the worst
kind of review you can get for your product in
this specific scenario is when Sam Greenwood loves it. That
is the worst review you can get because the punt
of the day, which is something that he writes, that
is what you want. You want the first hand of
the Final Table to be the punt of the day.
And then people who are casually watching at home, sitting
on their couch in Kentucky or somewhere in Iowa are
watching this and like, oh my god, ah Jack versus
King ten offsuit, this is super entertaining. And to your point,
I think that from a mainstream, mainstream perspective, having poker
on ESPN is phenomenal. Like it it's exciting for me
to see, you know, chips and cards on the table,
seeing Jeff Platt, hearing the voices of Nick and Ali
by the way, who are phenomenal tonight again as always
Jason Kuhn too. Will get to him in a minute.
But I do think that the game of poker itself
is best served in a compacted format. Same let's it's
who you're serving it too. But like I'm saying, for
that audience.
Speaker 1: Like on ESPN, I think edited stuff is probably the best, right.
And then if the diehards like you and I and
Sam Green I said, I want to seek out more
than that, then you go to a full livestream product, right,
And that's where it gets tricky because then it you know,
then obviously I mean again not to get too far
down this path, which we already are way too far
down this path. But then it's like it's like resources
and editing time and where do you put it where
and at what time do you put it out there?
And if you do something live but then wait for
edited episodes, are you spoiling the result? And like it's
that whole thing, right, So I don't really know what
the best answer is necessarily, right, I like, I guess
in a perfect world, you would have two broadcasts running
at the same time. One is live and one is
somehow a live but edited episode. Like I don't even
know if that's possible, but maybe that's just where my
mind goes. But it is tricky.
Speaker 2: It is. It is definitely fun to go on Twitter
and to search for WSP and see what people are
saying who are not living the poker life every single day.
And I think that because Twitter has not been as
popular of a platform as it was in the past,
we're not getting a lot of those opinions. I have
a feeling, and maybe I'm wrong, but I have a
feeling that probably five, six, seven years ago, Twitter was
a place where the everyman will sort of just say
random things like, oh, I'm having a same which, oh
I'm watching poker on TV. And I feel like that
sort of part of Twitter has sort of died out
as we are no longer in this sort of oversharing
state of the world, and it's more, I guess, boiled
down to people following. People are following, the influencers are
following the people that they want to follow because they
live interesting lives. They're no longer broadcasting themselves as much,
so we're not able to see that in the same way.
But still I saw a few tweets from casual fans,
which always warms my heart because you know, this will
reach some people who will you know, perhaps for sure,
perhaps bring an old home game back to life, or
maybe you know, find a way to play online poker,
and that's obviously all ultimately the goal with this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's you know, I agree with you
in terms of like just just seeing people post about
it on social media, whether it is positive or negative,
I still think is a good thing because it's being
talked about. Whereas those people if this wasn't on ESPN
or you know, if it wasn't anywhere else are available
out there, then people aren't seeing it and they're not
talking about it, So you know, at least it is
being talked about it, and I think that's good overall.
I think it was the very positive show. I was
a big fan of it, and I would say that,
you know, I think you. I think a lot of
the listeners out there for this podcast were definitely into it, right,
I fully understand like where someone like a Terrence Chan
is coming from, or Mike Madisow is coming from, and
just Mike Madison, Like the problem that I have with
opinions like that are he's just like yelling to yell,
like he's not offering any sort of suggestions or ideas
to improve it. He's just like this is horrible. Like
can you just like be like, hey, this should be
better because X y Z, like that would be a
better way to do it. You know, I don't know. Anyway,
We're all over the place.
Speaker 2: I think we do. We still have Gagliano.
Speaker 1: Cute, we do still have Gagliano ready to go. He's
one of the final seven players remaining. Gagliano came in
with forty four million or so something like that, finished
with forty two million. Like he just coming in. He
punched the clock for the nine to five. He went
to work. He was he was kind of up a
little bit early and you were like, oh, here comes
Gags was second for second and and then he kind
of which second in chips. That was a spot where
so Lucas Jumalan never lost the top spot, even though
he did slide a little bit at some point from
his peak, he never lost the top spot. Second place, though,
was a revolving door you had. I think did Greg
Muller get up to the second place at one point?
I can't remember. I think he was started there. Maybe
Greg Mueller, Lori Sascelotti for sure. Michael Gagliano, Yes, it
ends up with Han Feng up there as well. So
like all these players had a chance at second place,
and it was like, oh and all all that was
happening while the Jumalan slide was happening, So it was like, oh,
is somebody going to really get the heat and catch
up to Jumalan. One of those players was Gagliano. Played
I think as expected in that it was just very
very technically sound, you know, not probably the most above
the rim high level poker stuff, but in terms of
like just playing your best game from start to finish
across all the hands that were played. He was just
consistent across the board, and that's what you get from
Michael Gagilian. He's been in the game forever, He's played
a bazillion hands, he's a coach, he plays online, he
plays live, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I
mean there was the one big hand where he three
bet with the ace king against Jumalan's open. When Jumalan
had the ace Queen, Jumalan calls it comes Queen Queen
X So Jumalan flops, trips, and Gagliano just loses the
sea bet ultimately folds to the check raise from Jumalan,
And yeah, he lost that pop. But it's like he
doesn't get married to hands, he doesn't get caught in
big situations. So yeah, maybe he didn't finish on the
high that he once was, but a very good overall
for Gagliano. And you know, I don't think he's somebody
who I think he's both unassuming but also wouldn't be
a surprise if he ultimately goes on to win. And
here is Remco talking to Gagliano after play Day one ended.
Speaker 2: What a roller coaster it has been watching on the sidelines.
How would you describe today?
Speaker 8: First off, that was day nine. I am very happy
to have a Day ten coming up because you don't
get many.
Speaker 4: Double digit days in poker.
Speaker 8: You know, I'm a little tired. It was a longer
day than kind of anticipated. But it wasn't like this
was in the books. This could have happened, you know,
shipstacks were lined up in a way where if the
all in stack won a bunch of all in you
could have played for a while. So that happened, and
we played for a while. I kind of had a
pretty good start, kind of ran it up a little bit,
and then kind of just had a few knock on
our way. I think I just kind of got made
the second best hand a few times and got away
from it what I did, which was fortunate, And I'll
just see what happened tomorrow, you know, kind of same thing.
I'm little on the short side, but just in that
zone where I'm gonna just kind of have my game and.
Speaker 7: See what happens.
Speaker 2: How different if it was different? Does this feel to
your your other final tables that you played in your career?
Speaker 8: I mean every final table is different feel to it,
you know, just the group of guys and uh.
Speaker 2: Just the atmosphere.
Speaker 8: Obviously, the atmosphere is ridiculous.
Speaker 4: Here a lot of.
Speaker 8: Loud, energetic rails, which has been a lot of fun.
Speaker 7: I wear Earbucks for most of the day because I
don't like a.
Speaker 8: Lot of loud noises and just a little easier.
Speaker 4: To lock in.
Speaker 8: Kind of a shame that it's about, because I really
like talking with this corooper guys. We had a lot
of fun you know, leading up to the funnel table
and stuff.
Speaker 7: So we'll see what that holds for the you know,
the next day.
Speaker 4: And uh, a lot of fun though. The roads were great,
you know, a lot of back and forth. The O
Canada was amazing, you know.
Speaker 7: So, uh, you have to say, final.
Speaker 2: Question, how has the support been for you? Obviously there
is a few moments every now and then to talk
to the rail even just from a mental perspective, to
like sort of break the ice literally almost to have
sort of someone to get some feedback from.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's been amazing. I have family here, friends here,
a bunch of hooker players I don't get to see
too much, which is nice. The support online has been unbelievable.
The amount of messages I got in the last few days,
just pushing me a walk and tell me how you know,
everyone's proud of me.
Speaker 1: Regardless.
Speaker 7: A result has been just just unbelievable.
Speaker 8: I haven't had my phone all day, so I'm I'm
sure I have some messages and Twitter, you know, acts
and stuff, so I'll check it out later. But it's unbelievable.
It's been a lot of fun. They got some great
hats and shirts and I can't wait to, you know,
bring those home.
Speaker 4: It'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: That was Michael gaglian I felt like he was almost
in a rush to get out. I mean in a
way like he was done.
Speaker 2: He was being open about the fact that he was tired.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 2: He said he thought it was went longer than he expected.
And and this this is something I've said before. The
players who are the most well studied also get the
most fatigued because there's constant thoughts running through their mind
on every single decision. And for players who are more recreational,
they just play the hand that's dealt and then deal
with the circumstances and they aren't necessarily being I guess
zapped from an energy perspective because of how much is
at stake or how big this decisions are. And I
think Gagliano, of all the players, is probably feeling that
the most.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree, you know, he's I think he's
one hundred percent locked in at all times. And then
to your point that that ends up being pretty mentally taxing,
and also to his point about it going longer than expected,
I do think everyone expected this thing to be done
in for day one, it'd be done in two and
a half to three and a half hours in that window,
it ended up going what five or six hours, so
it went went very long. And then it's not only
that the full length of the time is long, but
everything is just drawn out. Like you play like three hands,
there's a commercial break, you come back, you play three
more hands, and every hand takes you know, five ten minutes.
Speaker 2: It's just long.
Speaker 1: It's drawn out. Then you come back from the break,
but you're still kind of standing around because they're waiting
for the commercial wrap up. Then it's boom, you're back
in your seat. So like there's just a lot of
stuff going on. So it's just everything is just drawn
out and you're almost sitting there like, oh man, is
this day gonna end? You know, is this day gonna end?
Plus I think that part of maybe feeling drained is
if the play itself had a bit more really really
big climactic moments, really really big all ins. We had
a few of them, but not a ton of them.
Let's say you a dozen instead of like the four
or five that we had. Then everyone's adrenaline's pumping a
little bit more. It's easier to get through the day
versus if you're just sitting there and like everyone's kind
of folding a lot, then you're kind of just like
this is boring, and when you're bored, you can kind
of doze off, But then you're fighting with your your
brain to like stay focused, so that I feel like
that plays into it too. So yeah, I mean it's
a big it's a big mind fuck out there, honestly,
and sometimes not just in this poker tournament, but this
is the one that where things are generally emphasized the most.
But the player who wins might be the one who
is maybe able to just maintain focus for the longest time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also the and not blow up, the player
who can let all the side show, all the noise,
all the all the past decisions sort of slide slide
or glide off of their shoulders the most easily, Like
you cannot allow yourself, you know, in like a Mueller's case,
to get stuck in thinking back of the hand where
things didn't go your way. And obviously, like Greg's a professional,
he's been doing this for a very long time, but
it's very possible that he goes to sleep tonight still
thinking about that hand because of what could have been.
So the player who's able to, you know, shut off
the brain in the moments that it can can be
shut off, those are the players who will have the
most success long term.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's that's a great point by you.
And it's such a big thing is if you're able
to just once a hand is played and done, whether
you win it or you lose it, it's done. It's
in the past. And I know Pad's was on the rail,
you know, in the Lucas Jumlan corner, Patrick Leonard, and
he's always talked about this. The only thing that matters
is the next hand, how many big blinds you have,
your position at the table, and trying to play that
hand the best, like that's all you can focus on.
And and I just don't know if Greg Mueller is
that type of player or if he's gonna let this
one stew on him right. I'm sure his camp namely
Sean Buchanan. It is just like, be like, forget about it.
Forget about it, man, forget about it. And he might
be saying like, man, if I just if I just
called there, if I just three bat pre if I
just check raise the flop, you know, if I if
I do anything different in that hand, I probably win
that hand, right yeap. And it's it's hard to forget
about that stuff in the moment, but you have to
forget about it. And I will say that, while I
don't know how Greg will, I will say that he's
been in the game a long time and going back
to a lot of stuff that he said on the
podcast with You to Face the Ace podcast, it's like
he understands that, like there's gonna be highs, there's gonna
be lows, and you do have to just forget about
it and move on. So and we're gonna see, you know,
come come tomorrow, come Tuesday, when everyone is listening to this,
how how he reacts from that all, and we'll see
if he can spin it up. He's got what's gonna
be just under ten big blinds, because the blinds are
going to go up to one point five to three million,
so he'll have just Shy have ten big blinds to
start the day. Jamie Shavel will have eleven big Linds
right ahead of him. So it's there are two fewer
players than there were when they're started on the final table,
but it's kind of a very similar situation. You have
a very big chip leader, you have a guy who's
comfortably in second, and then you have two guys who
are very short and kind of probably gonna try and
wait each other out, and then you have these middling stacks.
So even though two fewer players, it does set up
very similar to how it's set up coming into Monday,
which is interesting.
Speaker 2: So we'll see how it goes. Donnie, I got to
ask you for prediction. Is they two also going to
be a slow day?
Speaker 1: I think it starts slow, but I think in this
case where what we didn't see today is we saw
the bust out from Eva Gorus Evil Goru, and that
didn't really open the floodgates, right, It just kept pretty
much par for the course, pretty much a grind throughout.
I think if let's say Muler for example, finds a
hand earlier, he goes that he gets picked off, he's out.
I think we open the floodgates, right. I think part
of that is because people will have locked up what
is it, one point seventy five million at that point,
So it's it's a bit more definitely coming into today.
Nobody wants to be the first player to go home.
Who does doesn't get any extra money, right, that's a
big thing. Right, But now it's like, okay, I made
an extra seven hundred and fifty k, Like, let's go.
We started gotta start getting after it. We got to
start trying to put ourselves in position to win. Another
factor in this is and he said it in the interview,
Han Feng said he was never coming in just the
ladder up, but he was handcuffed by his chip stack.
Right now, he's gonna knock it. He's in second place,
like he might just be like, you know what, fit,
I'm gonna try and go for the damn thing. I'm
gonna try and finish day two of the final table
to really put myself in position to win ten million
dollars on the third and final day, which means at
times that could mean challenging Lucas Jumlan and another player,
Laurie Sasclatti. That guy didn't give a shit in a
lot of spots.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was great to see.
Speaker 1: He was like, listen, I'm the Finn here and I'm
gonna play like well he even.
Speaker 2: Said like he prefers po Yeah, of course at first
he's from Finland. That's why this is probably boring to him.
Speaker 1: So those three being the top three stacks, I feel
like it could be a lot of fun on this
second day of play.
Speaker 2: We'll see how it goes. Looking forward to it, what
do you what do you you.
Speaker 1: Got a prediction here or how things will play out?
Speaker 2: I mean looking at the board right now. The Jumalan
Fang Sasclott three handed battle, if that's what we end
up with, would be phenomenal, Like those three guys all
have what it takes to make that a very entertaining battle.
And then at the same time, I like the mechanical
tactical play of Gagliano. I love Rami Hamoud with his
Canadian rail and.
Speaker 1: The and the he had the fossil Man sunglasses Greg
Ramer because he knocked out Greg Grahmer. Greg Grahmer gave
him the fossil gave him the glasses, the snake eyes glasses.
He had both of.
Speaker 2: Them on the table. Was so crazy, Yeah, brilliant. And
then they also made reference to it in the broadcast,
which is awesome. And then a Shavel you know, had
the big ups and downs, he was all in multiple times,
won a big one, lost the big one, and then
there's Mueller at the bottom of the counts. Really, you know,
this is one of those things that has happened so
many times where you come into a final table and
you're you're thinking to yourself, like, you know, I don't
I don't know these people. I have no connection with
these people. And then as you watch the episodes you know,
which we're now airing on ESPN, as you learn some
more about them, and then as you watch them play
for a whole day today and then obviously again tomorrow,
you're you're you're slowly but surely finding reasons why you
can buy into the story of each and every one
of these players. There's something that that all of them
have going for them, and you know, some of the
stories might be a little harder to do uncover, or
perhaps you know the story doesn't run as deep, but
I can I can sort of find a way for
myself to root for all of these players, which is
really cool to see. Lots of positive energy, no negativity,
you know, no conflict. It's just been really really good
to see. And then Donnie, I think all that's left
for us is to do a hard pivot into the
Manda myth, the legend, Jason Kuhn.
Speaker 1: The legend he is. So as part of the festivities
for this first day of the WSP Main Event Final Table,
they did announce the Hall of Fame inductees or inductee
I should say, because it was just a single player
for the twenty twenty six class, and that was, of
course Jason Kuhn, the Legend, the icon. I mean, I know,
we throw around the world Goat all the time. He
very much might be the actual goat, like he is
that good of a player. He's won two bracelets on
his resume, countless Triton titles, bunch of PGT tos. He
won the PGT Championship a bunch of years ago when
it was winner take all for that five hundred K prize.
Of course, his casket cash game resume speaks for itself.
He plays insanely high stakes throughout his career up to
numbers that are like, you know, here's a small house,
here's a big house in the small blind, the big blind.
That's where bettan in this one. He's done it online,
he's done it live, you know, all that sort of stuff.
I really I can't think of, Like, if you were
to make a yeah butt for Jason Kuhn, I don't
really know what it would be. Maybe it's like, well, yeah,
but he doesn't play mixed games, but it's like, Okay,
I don't really care because everything that he does in
the big bet space so far outweighs anything anyone else
has done in a lot of spaces that it just
doesn't matter. He really is a true one of one
in the industry. Also honestly one of the fucking nicest
guys in the universe. Yes, just for as big as
he is as a poker player, as successful as he is,
likely as rich as he is all this sort of stuff,
he is just a down to earth dude who will
just come in and just shoot the shit with you,
ask you how you're doing, talk about your kids with you,
all that sort of stuff. Just a great person and
it's an honor to see him go into the Hall
of Fame. He was the only player inducted, which I'm
sure there will be plenty to talk about with that.
I saw some stuff on social media.
Speaker 2: Well, they fix the voting to get more people in.
Speaker 1: They fix the voting where it could allow for more
people to go in, and then you have just one
player go in. So now it's gonna be a whole thing.
And this is the year when it's like, Okay, the
backlog is here, is deep to get in? Is sever
going to get in? Is east I Sheinberg going to
get in? Like what's going to happen?
Speaker 2: But by the way, I want to just point this out,
Diane and I have been been super I guess I
don't want to say against the Hall of Fame. We've
been super unhappy with the way the Hall of Fame
has been operating in the past. And I was really
excited for this change. And of course you cannot you
could not steer the voting public, which are the Hall
of Fame members, into a way for them to like
hash out how can we get multiple people inducted? That's
just not how this works. But I was excited to
have multiple people inducted.
Speaker 1: Now I thought we were going to get two. I
thought it was just gonna be there would have been two.
Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be Coon and Deep.
Speaker 1: Okay, I thought it was probably gonna be Coon and sever. Yeah,
that was my third and then maybe Deep next year.
But you know either way.
Speaker 2: But the one thing I wanted to emphasize here is
that this sort of quote unquote problem of having this
backlog is only going to get worse every single year.
Mike Madisow is never getting into the Hall of Fame.
If you don't get in on your first ballot, it
is almost a guarantee that you're not going to get
in because more and more guys are going to turn
forty that have these insane resumes. Chidwick is not forty yet.
Brin Kenny is not forty yet. Jason Kuhn inducted into
the Poker Hall of Fame as the third player on
the all time money list right now. So anyone who
is younger than Kuhn and who is in the top
fifty whenever they become eligible, unless you know they're like
a one off, are going to probably have a good
case to get into the Poker Hall of Fame because
guess what if you can be this high up in
the ALTI Money List rankings right now, in the current
state of the game, then the case for you to
be the Hall of Fame is going to be incredible.
So let me just go through some of these names.
And this is sort of hard to hear, perhaps if
you are nominated right now, or if you have been
in the past and you haven't gotten in yet, and
this is these are names that you know may or
may not get in the future. But I think you
can make the case for all of these guys. Adrian Matat,
Isaac Haxton, Dan Smith, Alex Foxen, David Peters, Faeder Holtz,
Steve O'Dwyer, Christoph Vogel saying, I mean this is where
I'm still in the top twenty of the AULL Time
Money List, Nick Petreangelo, Sean Winter Like, all these guys
have stood in the test of time. All these guys
have over forty million in career earnings. All these guys
have plenty of arguments for them to be in the
Hall of Fame. And none of these guys are forty yet.
So it is insane to think that in the next
five years all of them are turning forty and none
of them have a spot locked up because of how
crazy the backlog is, because you know, there's a good
chance that sever is the only one to get in
next year, for example, because he was closest to getting
enough votes this year, and now Kuhn gets added. And
I mean Kuhn even in his conversation with me, talked
about how much he respected Sever. So it's very possible
that next year Sever's turned. With every passing year the
only one player it's in the backlog gets worse and
there are going to be a lot of players who
are going to miss out on being part of the
Hall of Fame, even though they're very deserving.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I can't disagree. You know, I think
you put it very well there. I would guess that
just seeing some of this initial pushback here from some
of the people out there who wanted more than one
people and made the arguments for other people. In addition
to kuon getting in, I think there's no pushback on
Jason getting in everyone. I think like he was number
one on their list, right, but it was like, these
other players are deserving, so they should also be in
there as well. And I'm gonna maybe just go out
on a lim and say next year, we definitely get
two or three, just because there might be some pressure
where it's like, oh, well, remember last year, maybe we
didn't get that exactly right, so let's make up for
it this year.
Speaker 2: And then one thing before he played the interview, the
fact that Kuon got in by himself and the fact
that he's first ballot, I think made it that much
more special because Kuon is up there doing the interview
with Jeff Platt on the est PM broadcast, and then
he gets brought over to the poker room where his
Hall of Fame picture was unveiled. I was there with
the other poker media and we all we all spoke
to him. He was there with his with his wife Bianca,
his two incredible kids. Bianca has a third on the way.
Andrew Robo was there with his wife, and it was
very It was very intimate because it was just him
getting inducted. If you're standing there with Sean Deeven Scott,
sever the atmosphere is completely different. You know, it's not
just your thing, you're part of your event. It is
for all these guys. So I think that you know
and and perhaps deservingly so as well. Given Kuhne's stature
in the game, having that moment with him and having
a chance to talk to him was just really cool,
and he had a lot of incredible things to say,
as as Jason qun always does. Jason is from from
West and West Virginia.
Speaker 1: To stand here.
Speaker 2: At the Horseshoe, you get the Hall of Fame photos
behind you, you got suppour of your closest friends.
Speaker 1: And your family described this.
Speaker 5: Moment, yeah, man, I mean, honestly, I haven't talked about
it today because we've kind of been in hyper speed
with everybody. But to think about it, you know, I
was the first person in my family to go to college.
I suffered a hip injury that I thought was the
worst thing that had ever happened to me, and I
set in my bed with stitches in my leg and
started playing online poker. And to think that that happened,
and for me to find my love at such a
young age because that injury happened, it's a wild story. Man,
twenty years later here, I am. I really can't. I
can't believe it.
Speaker 2: The steps you took in poker were not linear growth, right, Yeah,
there's ups and downs, there's setbacks, there's big moments forward,
that's right.
Speaker 1: What comes to mind when you hear the words that
you are inducted.
Speaker 2: What are some of those big moments, both forward and backwards.
Speaker 7: You know you would think back of rather than thinking
in moments.
Speaker 5: I tend to think of my mentors and the people
that were with me along the way.
Speaker 7: And I've had such a great group of friends that
are now my family.
Speaker 5: As you know, you know, you and ourn pals, But like,
if you really you look at my group of poker friends,
it's like an Avengers cast for a movie.
Speaker 7: It's insane and every.
Speaker 5: Chapter, you know, there's been there's been, like you said,
ups and downs at the biggest stakes in the world.
But I've just had these guys and you you just
know you're solid. We can all relate with each other.
You're you're pushing each other every day to be better.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 5: It's like straight up, last week, I don't plan on
playing for the next six months. Last week me and
six of the best poker players in the world studied
every day.
Speaker 7: I'm not planning again for six months. It's just like that.
Speaker 5: We're like a family. We push each other. It's the
only way to be and Uh. Yeah, I'm just so
blessed to have my team.
Speaker 2: I like to refer back to a moment we had
backstage during WSP where you mentioned that some of these
guys are just different. Yeah, you mentioned IQ, you mentioned Shitwick. Yeah,
you said their brains operate on a level that's just different.
It seems to me like you often forget that you
are also among that crowd and you're now on this wall.
Speaker 1: So what is it that separates you from the rest of.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, that's a question I asked myself all
the time, because I truly you know, oftentimes I'm sitting
here like how did this happen? And I've done two
things extraordinarily well in my career. The first thing is
I'm ridiculously persistent, like I just never stopped, you know me,
I'm so energetic, I never stop. And secondly, I've been
great at finding people to push me to be better.
And that those things kind of intersect, because you have
to be persistent at driving people crazy enough to work
with you. Like Ike's a great example. I said, hey,
coach me. He said no. I said, hey, I'll pay
you this an hour.
Speaker 7: He said no.
Speaker 5: I said, okay, I just sent you twenty thousand dollars
to your account. You have to coach me, And he said,
damn it, okay, And that's how our relationship started. Like
things like that, I just would not take no for
an answer, not just with relationships but with myself.
Speaker 7: You know, I would hit barriers where.
Speaker 5: I just couldn't win, and I just my life has
been very binary. It's it's I have something I need
to accomplish or I die. That's how I look at things.
So I'm gonna do the thing. And my life's just
been that way since I was seven years old.
Speaker 2: In poker, it's often dangerous to critject or forecast how
things are gonna go. Yeah, but was there a moment
in time where you might have thought, for the first time,
I'm on track to be in the Hall of Fame.
I now belong or I will belong at some point.
Speaker 1: On this wall.
Speaker 7: Well, I knew.
Speaker 5: I knew maybe nine years ago that special things were
starting to happen when I was holding the lobbies on
specific apps against the best players in the world, and
I was the guy that was no one would play
me heads up anymore, and I was the guy that
was winning the most that ring and then I had
the tournament runs that I had. I started to think, Wow,
like this career is it's been a good one, you know.
And I was thinking that maybe eight or nine years ago,
and some good stuff's happened between those nine years too,
and it doesn't make sense to me. I still can't
believe it happened. Like I said, it was almost it's
almost all been like a weird dream. But all I
can say is, every single day I do something.
Speaker 2: One of the things about the Hall of Fame that
makes it so special, and I know they've changed the
rules a little bit this year, is that you need
your peers to recognize your accomplishments and your longevity in
the game and your success. When the nominees were announced,
there were people running campaigns and whatnot. There's phone calls
going at what has the reception been from the members
that were already in about your nomination?
Speaker 5: Yeah, honestly, that's been the most overwhelming thing about this
entire experience. There's been guys like Eric's Sidel, John Jowanda,
Phil Ivy. I was taking a leak in the bathroom
and Phil Helmuth walks up to me and he goes,
you got my.
Speaker 7: Vote, kid literally teared up.
Speaker 5: I was like washing my hands, like, wow, Phil Hellmuth's
just voted for me to get into the Poker Hall
of Fame. Like these are overwhelming, These are idols of mine,
you know, Like I came in and these guys were it.
You know, even guys like Jack Binyon voted for me.
Bobby Baldwin like goat, you know, like incredible sending me text,
hey kid, you had my vote.
Speaker 7: I just Maury like it's it's unbelievable.
Speaker 5: So it just means so much to me that these
guys actually, uh, you know, they think I'm legit, and
that's you know, you call that vain call of what
you want. But when your heroes kind of give you
a tap and say, hey, yeah, I've voted for you,
it's a big moment.
Speaker 2: A few more small ones, but I know you're not
one to rest or, one to sit back.
Speaker 7: Now, Jos's crazy.
Speaker 2: So when you say you know you're not playing for
six months, I know number three is on the way, yeah,
but I also know you're not part of this elite club.
Speaker 7: If you will, Yeah, what does this mean.
Speaker 2: For your ongoing longevity in the game? And you're perhaps
your goals and ambitions because you know what's left in
a way.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I already told these guys I'm basically technical
support for the next six months. I said, I'll study
with you every day. I'll help you prep for final tables.
That'll keep me sharp. I'll help you guys work on PLO.
If there's cash games, we can game plan together. That's
kind of the idea to keep me keep the blade sharp.
For me, I'm going to have a baby strapped to
my chest, which I'm looking forward to so much. Third
time round, you realize how fast those moments go. And
even you know, since the WSB ended for me, say
four weeks ago or something, I've been sprinting five days
a week, powerlifting Like like you.
Speaker 7: Said, I can't rest.
Speaker 5: So I'm just gonna lose myself in things I'm passionate
about my family, my health, and helping my buddies win poker,
and hopefully if they go over there and take down
some titles, it'll it'll feel like I did it.
Speaker 2: The final question, your kids are young, you know, third
ones on the way.
Speaker 9: Yeah, but there's something about the fact that you've accomplished
this while their awareness of the world around them is
only slowly starting to creep in. Yeah, what is that
conversation going to be like with them ultimately when they
are old enough to understand.
Speaker 1: What's going on?
Speaker 5: You know. It's one of those things I've thought a
lot about, and I just want them to understand. One
thing that I really appreciate the poker brings to the
table for them is they see me lose, and they
see me lose often, and I come home and everything's okay,
and I feel good about myself and I hug my
kids and I say and they say, Daddy, is you
want I said, no, I got.
Speaker 7: Killed a dat but I'm fine.
Speaker 5: And they're learning that, you know, even that, if that's
enough from a starting point for them, that's an amazing
place to begin.
Speaker 7: And to look back. I think they'll.
Speaker 5: Understand their dad worked really, really hard at something, and
they might walk in here one day and say, holy shit,
that's my dad on the watch.
Speaker 1: One more quick thought, and this is something that I
just started thinking about while you and I were conversing
about this. But what if it wasn't just a thing
that's done every single year during the World Series of Poker.
What if they just inducted people whenever they wanted. Yeah,
like if they kind of got together as a committee
and said, like, you know what, let's discuss maybe they
get together let's say quarterly, and they just said, you
know what, it's time for Jason to get in. Let's
put him in. Here's what we're going to do the ceremony.
Let's go, which goes to your point of like then
you get a ceremony for one person, right then maybe
it's next month. They're like, you know what, it's Sever's time.
These are the reasons, like can everyone in the room vote,
like if there's a certain number or whatever, then they say, okay,
we're gonna do sever whenever. Maybe then you go, you
go like three years when there's no one because there's
no one meets the criteria for whatever reason. I don't
think we're in that period now, but I'm just you know,
just to make an argument, does like why does it
have to be like every single year on this date,
Hall of Fame voting comes up? Like I know that's
how like other places do it, but like why does
it have to be like that?
Speaker 2: I'll do you on better. The committee gathers once a
year and can be on Zoom too. Because there's there's
not enough people in all in one place. But the
committee gathers once a year, and let's just say like
this is in January, and they they have their arguments
they can make for each player. Jason Jason Kuon can
go into this meeting pitching the induction of Scott sever
you know, and and you know, Brian Rask can come
in there and pitch the induction of Sean Deep and
then they have they have a couple of weeks to
you know, think about it, and then have a second
meeting in which they decide who gets in this year,
the class of twenty twenty seven, and then during the WSOP,
and this all stays under wraps. Then during the WSOP,
depending on how many there are during the main event
on day one A one induction Day one B one
induction Day one, see one induction. And if there's five
people that year, there's just five days in a row
where a person gets inducted, and if there's only one,
there's only one. But I think that way, you talk
among the Hall of Fame crowd who is worthy and deserving,
and the voting can be on each player individually. If
Kun suggests that sever has to get in, and he
as a member can do that. Then the other members
have to vote yes or no on that person. And
you know, if Jack Binyon wants to nominate someone, he
also is free to do so. I think that could
be a good way to expand this format.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean basically, I think what we're getting at
is you're having a single ceremony for one person getting in,
and then you're almost reverse engineering the whole process from there. Yeah,
like you're being like, Okay, how do we celebrate this
one person for their accomplishments in the game and what
they did on the biggest stage. Okay, that's great, Now
how do we reverse engineer all of it to get
them there? And then we can do that multiple times.
And maybe it is during the WSB made event. Maybe
it's once a week during the summer, right, whatever it is,
but it's it's everyone gets their flowers on their own
special occasion. They're celebrated. Whatever. You could even do cool
things like you know, when they showed the NFL, like
they the Hall of Fame member goes to the guy's
house and knocks on the door, like Nick Shulman just
like walks up to Jason Kuhon always playing the hunter
k like right about they're about to go on break,
shakes his hand. There's cameras around Jason Kuhn, like what
the hell is going on? Nick's like you're in buddy
like that like that, like shit like that, Like let's
like that would be dope anyway, too much talk tonight.
Speaker 2: It's fore should we take over the Hall of Fame?
Speaker 1: No we should not. It's it's twelve fifty two in
the morning. Normally I say what time it is done?
There's no one here, There is no one here. We
are the last ones here.
Speaker 2: Does make me feel like like ten fifteen years ago,
It does when you and I were always the last
ones here. It does, or whoever we were working with
at the time.
Speaker 1: Main event, Baby, we probably wouldn't be the last ones
here if this thing didn't go six hours today.
Speaker 2: Oh I thought you were going to say if Marco
Valerio didn't show up. That is true.
Speaker 1: Agent Marco in the Flesh showed up, had a conversation
with us, doing great.
Speaker 2: And I love how Agent Marco is always Agent Marco.
The way he talks, it's it's authentic.
Speaker 1: It's just who he said to me when you were
off to the side for second and we were talking.
He's like, not to sound like I'm interviewing you, and
then he just kept asking questions like he was actually
interviewing me. And I was like, no, man, it's it's okay,
Like it's totally fine. I'm here for it.
Speaker 2: So there's donuts left by the way.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not doing it. I faded the donuts
all day today and I'm still going to try and
fade them. So anyway, it's about to be one am
Remco and I are going to get the heck ou here.
We're gonna be back on Tuesday, August fourth. We'll do
the same sort of recap style pod at the end
of that. I think the goal is to get down
to three handed play.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: The goal today was to get down to six handed play.
They didn't exactly reach that, so we'll see what comes.
Speaker 2: I think we should have the people, uh leave a
comment on the video if you're watching it on YouTube
with who your top three is gonna be? Yeah, I
like that. Let's go. I'm gonna I'm gonna go. I'll
just kick this off. I'm gonna go. Jumalan Fang and Gagliano.
Speaker 1: God, I was gonna say the exact same three I
can't say the same same thing now, So I'm gonna go.
I'm gonna go Jumalan fang and I'll say Jamie Chevelle
runs it back up. Got eleven big mindes to work with,
buddies in there. It's gotta have some good fortune on
on on day two, the final table. All right, that's
gonna do it for us, for Remka Rikima. I am
Donnie Peters, and we will talk to you guys next.
Speaker 2: Start rat to night on the
Speaker 7: Change Express.