1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,439 Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 3: We're joined today by Catherine Miles, author of the amazing 16 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:52,560 book Trailed, One Woman's Quest to Solve the Shenandomo Murders. Kate, 17 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:53,840 thanks for joining us today. 18 00:00:54,679 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 4: It is always an honor and a privilege. I am 19 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,039 so glad to be with you both. Now. 20 00:00:59,039 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: If we only had some things that were worth talking about, we. 21 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 4: Could talk about my garden I'm planning some sunflowers. Is 22 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:08,439 that helpful? 23 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:10,879 Speaker 3: I love sunflowers. Yes. 24 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: And we just had a garden tour come through our gardens, 25 00:01:14,079 --> 00:01:17,760 which are really Pamela's gardens. Y see, we could talk 26 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:21,040 about gardens too. I can only talk to a limited extent. 27 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,680 I know a fair amount about hauling mulch and taking 28 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:28,920 brush to the recycling center. Enough of that foolishness. 29 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 3: We do have some big news to talk about. And 30 00:01:32,079 --> 00:01:34,879 the first person that I thought of when I heard 31 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,599 this big news the other day was Kate. My first 32 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:41,879 thought was, how is Kate reacting to all of this? So, Kate, 33 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,079 why don't you tell us what the big news was 34 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:45,920 and how did you react to all of it? 35 00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:50,079 Speaker 4: So the big news is that the FBI hosted a 36 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,879 press conference in which they announced that they believe they 37 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,239 have now found the individual responsible for the nineteen ninety 38 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,879 six double murder of Julie Williams Molly Winan's that his 39 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:05,959 name is Leo Jackson Senior, that he is a known 40 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,280 serial rapist and someone who was known to frequent trails. 41 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:14,599 As to how I found out about this, I happened 42 00:02:14,599 --> 00:02:18,520 to have been teaching a writing workshop in a very 43 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,360 lovely part of upstate New York that had very bad 44 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,280 cell reception and even worse Wi Fi reception, And we 45 00:02:25,759 --> 00:02:28,800 happened to be taking a quick break that morning and 46 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:32,319 I checked my phone and it had blown up with 47 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:37,960 requests from national media sources, from national TV places like that, 48 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,719 do you know what the press conference is about? Do 49 00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:42,879 you know what the press conference is about? And my 50 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,080 first response, of course, was what press conference? And luckily 51 00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:53,280 my very good friend Bill Thomas had also texted and 52 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,800 so I can't remember if I called you, or I 53 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,159 think I called you and was like, what is this about? 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,840 And you, oh, by then had found your way to 55 00:03:01,879 --> 00:03:04,199 the press release that had not been sent to me, 56 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,479 despite the fact that I have national journalistic credentials and 57 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,919 obviously ought to have been there. And as soon as 58 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,199 you started to read to me the number of high 59 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,840 ranking individuals who were going to be at that press conference, 60 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,840 it became very clear to me that they intended to 61 00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:22,400 announce that they were going to solve it. 62 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,439 Speaker 2: And we had heard from our media sources that there 63 00:03:26,479 --> 00:03:28,439 was going to be a press conference. This was all 64 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,000 on very short notice. Much of this is remarkable. 65 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 4: Classic FBI, by the way, classic. 66 00:03:33,879 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: And exactly the same very unfortunate scenario created by the 67 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:45,240 FBI which we experienced back in January eighth, twenty twenty four, 68 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,319 when they announced the first ID in the Colonial Parkway murders. 69 00:03:49,759 --> 00:03:53,439 Our media context reached out to us and they had said, 70 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:56,319 were we going to be sitting in on this press conference? 71 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,159 And we were like, what press conference? The same reaction 72 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:02,879 you had, and then we got a media alert with 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,159 a dial in number, And then of course I was 74 00:04:05,199 --> 00:04:08,680 desperately trying to track you down, and you're off doing 75 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,599 good work teaching other talented writers how to be even 76 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:14,680 more talented writers. But I remember you were like, Okay, 77 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,959 what's the bottom line here? So I said, I can 78 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,839 send you the press release. I think I actually read 79 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,240 some of it to you, because you wanted to hear 80 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,199 the meat of what was going to be announced. They 81 00:04:26,199 --> 00:04:29,959 didn't identify a perpetrator or an offend or anything like that, 82 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:34,040 but once you saw the list of heavy hitters from 83 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,759 law enforcement who were involved, it was very clear they 84 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,560 had some significant news correct. 85 00:04:39,639 --> 00:04:43,519 Speaker 4: And I, again, I was teaching writers who had spent 86 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,000 a fair amount of money and traveled a very long 87 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,399 distance and left jobs and families and things like that, 88 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,879 so that they could come do this, and I explained 89 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,519 to them what was happening. Now. I was obviously having 90 00:04:53,759 --> 00:04:57,680 a lot of emotional, I think, and mental responses to this, 91 00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:00,720 and I had said to them, listen, I am here 92 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:04,079 for you all right. Now. I've alerted my TV producer 93 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,839 that this is happening. They're going to be there, They're 94 00:05:06,879 --> 00:05:09,519 going to record the press conference. They'll text me. And 95 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:15,079 these incredible students were like, no, absolutely not. We will 96 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:18,319 sit here and quietly write and you will go join 97 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,959 this press conference, which was incredibly generous of them, and 98 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,839 so I did, and I was able to hear it 99 00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:29,600 in real time and had, I think, along with every 100 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,360 other human who was a part of this, a very 101 00:05:32,399 --> 00:05:36,120 wide range of emotions and responses in terms of what 102 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:36,519 was said. 103 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 3: Hey, what we did is we asked people on Mind 104 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,839 of Murder to submit some questions that they wanted to 105 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,360 ask you with regard to this press conference. And this 106 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,879 seems like a great idea to jump to this very 107 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,959 first question, which I think is the question on all 108 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,639 of our minds, and the question from Jamie is I'm 109 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,000 curious if Leo Jackson was someone Kate was aware of 110 00:05:57,079 --> 00:05:59,680 at all. When she was researching her book, Kate, had 111 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,160 you heard this guy's name before? 112 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 4: I had never heard his name, and Hi, Jamie, great 113 00:06:05,079 --> 00:06:07,560 to meet you and thank you for the question. I 114 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,040 had not heard his name ever before, and that's not 115 00:06:11,319 --> 00:06:15,519 super unusual in these cases. I think sophisticated killers are 116 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:18,240 great at flying under the radar, and a lot of 117 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,519 times were surprised to find someone. However, I will say 118 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,920 that some of the sources for my book believe that 119 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,279 they saw Jackson in the days immediately after the murders 120 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:34,040 in the park and prior to the press conference, had 121 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:39,040 described this individual to me in a way that tracked 122 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,680 as credible once I finally saw a picture of Jackson. 123 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,519 Speaker 2: When you described what they had said and how they 124 00:06:47,639 --> 00:06:51,720 described a person which we believe could be Jackson, the 125 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:55,600 way they described him was pretty spot on. When you 126 00:06:55,639 --> 00:06:59,480 actually see his photograph from back in the day, he 127 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,639 really looks essentially exactly the way they described him. They 128 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,040 mentioned a particular actor who really does look a fair 129 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:09,879 amount like Leo Jackson. 130 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 4: Yes, and so for folks who are not familiar with 131 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:16,079 the book, there were a group of women who were 132 00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:20,759 hiking through Shenandoah when the murder happened, and I followed 133 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:24,480 their story for a variety of reasons. First, I feel 134 00:07:24,519 --> 00:07:27,319 like it really set the tone of what it was 135 00:07:27,439 --> 00:07:30,040 like to be a hiker, and especially a female hiker 136 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,920 in the park while all this was going on. I 137 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,720 think it's really important to remember that we believe the 138 00:07:35,759 --> 00:07:39,199 women were killed on May twenty eighth. Their bodies were 139 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,480 found very late in the day on the last day 140 00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:45,920 of May, the morning of June first. At that point, 141 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:49,040 no news had been released, the crime scene had not 142 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,680 been processed, the bodies were still at the scene until 143 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,279 very late about eleven am on June first. The park 144 00:07:55,399 --> 00:08:01,040 deliberately chose to withhold information about the murders for several days, 145 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:04,360 and then when they did finally release this late in 146 00:08:04,399 --> 00:08:06,600 the day that Tuesday, which would have been the third 147 00:08:06,959 --> 00:08:08,800 they first tried to say it was a bear attack, 148 00:08:08,959 --> 00:08:11,639 and then they tried to say it was a murder suicide. 149 00:08:11,839 --> 00:08:14,920 So I think that's just some important context here. These 150 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,720 women encountered two men very early in the morning on 151 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:23,120 June first, so again before any news had been released anywhere. 152 00:08:23,279 --> 00:08:26,879 They were approximately thirty miles north of the crime scene, 153 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,480 still in Shenandoah National Park, and they encountered a man 154 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,559 who purported to be a through hiker who immediately asked 155 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,519 them at about seven am, did you hear about the 156 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,759 murder of the two women? And then he was very 157 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,759 quickly joined and was rendezvousing by with a friend in 158 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,039 this parking lot. And again this is pre cell phone, right, 159 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,759 so nothing was coordinated here. Information was not traveling the 160 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:56,799 way it travels in twenty twenty four. This friend showed 161 00:08:56,879 --> 00:08:59,840 up also knew about the murders. These men had a 162 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,240 very performative conversation about the murders. And the women have 163 00:09:04,399 --> 00:09:07,480 always described this man in the car to me as 164 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,200 a driving a beater car and b looking just like 165 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:14,440 Philip Seymour Hoffman. And if you look at the picture 166 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,399 of Jackson. 167 00:09:15,639 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: He looks like Philips Seymour Hoffman. 168 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,919 Speaker 4: And what they've said to me is the minute we 169 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,600 saw that photo, one of them said to me, I 170 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,559 like all the hairs on my neck stood up. I 171 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,919 got goosebumps. I felt it in the pit of my stomach. 172 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,080 She had this very visceral reaction to seeing Jackson's photo 173 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,639 that in the nearly thirty years since this crime she 174 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,399 has never had. And I put a lot of stock 175 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:40,879 in that, and I put a lot of stock in 176 00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:43,200 the fact that they have been telling me this story 177 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:47,879 since twenty eighteen, long before Jackson, and so far as 178 00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:51,600 I can tell, the FBI and National Park Service never 179 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,279 followed up, despite the fact that they immediately told a ranger. 180 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,559 So by eight am at the very latest that morning, 181 00:09:58,919 --> 00:10:03,120 they had told Arrange about this experience. Within a day 182 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,840 or two, they had called the FBI. Within a day 183 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:08,000 or two after that, they had gotten the photo of 184 00:10:08,039 --> 00:10:12,039 the through hiker developed and sent to the FBI. And 185 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,279 when readers read my book, a lot of them will 186 00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:17,440 email me and they'll say this through hiker. When I 187 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,559 was making a case that I thought mark of on 188 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,320 its should have been looked at in more detail, very 189 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,960 perceptive readers would write it and say, but yeah, but 190 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,440 does the through hiker look like mark of on its? 191 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,399 And I'd be like, no, he doesn't. And I'd be like, 192 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,159 that calls mark of on It's into question for me, 193 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,679 which is the exact right response here. Again, I think 194 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,840 it's one of those very unfortunate cases where people citizens 195 00:10:40,919 --> 00:10:45,000 and women in particular, are ultimately discredited by investigators as 196 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,360 not having useful information when that information ought to be 197 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:49,200 very valued. 198 00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: Kate, We've used the expression through hiker several times for 199 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,879 the benefit of someone that's never been to the Appalachian 200 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,919 Trail or maybe from another part of the world through hiker. 201 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 4: Great question, thank you. So the Appalachian Trail is approximately 202 00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:09,200 twenty two hundred miles long. It begins in Georgia and 203 00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:12,159 it goes to Maine, all along the Appalachian Mountain Ridge. 204 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,639 A through hiker is someone who takes about usually four 205 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,039 to six months to hike the trail from beginning to end. 206 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,240 So if they're a northbound through hiker, they start in 207 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,399 Georgia and they continuously hike all the way to Maine. 208 00:11:25,639 --> 00:11:28,559 If they're south bound, it's obviously reversed. So these are 209 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,679 folks who are going to do the whole trail in 210 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,360 one bit, as opposed to flip flop hikers or section 211 00:11:34,519 --> 00:11:37,240 hikers who are going to break up this trip. So 212 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:41,720 this person purported to be a through hiker, I will say, 213 00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:45,559 having covered hiking for a variety of publications for a 214 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,080 very long time and spent a lot of time on 215 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,519 the trail, first of all, and I say this with 216 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,639 great love to all through hikers. Through hikers have a 217 00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:57,559 very distinct smell after they've been on the trail for 218 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,679 a while. You can't watch it on your gear out. 219 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,360 I've written on stories about through hikers who have not 220 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,440 been allowed on planes even after they've showered and washed 221 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,360 their gear because it still has that special funk to it. 222 00:12:09,759 --> 00:12:12,919 So through hikers have a look, they have a demeanor, 223 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,639 they have a smell. These women always thought that this 224 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:20,120 guy looked way too clean. They thought his pack was 225 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,200 way too small to be carrying. They thought he was 226 00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:26,039 really going out of his way to establish to them 227 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,840 that he was a through hiker in a way that 228 00:12:27,879 --> 00:12:31,360 didn't really feel legit to them. So he has always 229 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,480 stood out to me and to readers as a very 230 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:38,360 peculiar part of this story that can't but needs to 231 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:39,039 be explained. 232 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,759 Speaker 2: And these women, it's Is it fair to refer to 233 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,600 them as the Ands? These are the ans who were 234 00:12:44,639 --> 00:12:46,679 referred to in Trailed your book? 235 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 4: Yes, I call them the Ans, conveniently because all three 236 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,799 of them are named Their first names are Ann And 237 00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:57,320 so this was to be their first real sort of 238 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,759 multi day backpacking experience. They had for it for a 239 00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:04,919 really long time. They'd prepared. It's through their experience that 240 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,600 I think we really see the very real fear that 241 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,639 was happening because of the misinformation and lack of information 242 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,919 that the park Service was giving to folks in the 243 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,960 park who rightly wondered about their safety. 244 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:22,159 Speaker 3: The sixty four thousand dollars question from two of our listeners, 245 00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:27,600 Rebecca and Deborah is Leo Jackson, the man the ANNs 246 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:30,639 saw on the trail and took a photo of. 247 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 4: No and I have that photo. I'm still in the 248 00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:37,000 process of trying to track down who that individual was. 249 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:42,600 But that individual knew his friend who rendezvoud in the 250 00:13:42,639 --> 00:13:45,320 parking lot with him. And again this is pre cell phone, 251 00:13:45,399 --> 00:13:49,080 So rendezvoyenne at seven am off of a trail in 252 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,240 a parking lot without contact, it's hard to do. In 253 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,399 nineteen ninety six. The ANNs strongly believe that the friend 254 00:13:56,399 --> 00:13:59,240 that rendezvoued in this so called beater car is in 255 00:13:59,279 --> 00:13:59,919 fact Jackson. 256 00:14:00,759 --> 00:14:03,159 Speaker 3: And did they happen to recognize the car? 257 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,759 Speaker 4: So they want to be I should just say, first 258 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:10,519 of all, they're great humans, and they take all of 259 00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:13,399 this very seriously, and they've been really scarred by all 260 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,879 of this they believe it to be. But they are 261 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:21,679 also very cognizant of this kind of influential thing that happens, 262 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,120 like when you see a car, your brain does that 263 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,039 own kind of version of confirmation bias and says, oh, yeah, 264 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,840 that's the car. So will they swear on their life 265 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,759 that it was the car? No? Are they really certain 266 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,440 this was the guy they saw on the parking lot? 267 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: Yes, and it is twenty eight years later. Some people 268 00:14:39,519 --> 00:14:42,600 are into cars, some people are not, and they weren't 269 00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:48,159 necessarily fixed on those details. But it is very striking 270 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,600 that the man who drove up for the rendezvous with 271 00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:55,159 the guy who presented himself as a through hiker so 272 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,559 strongly resembled Jackson as we see him now. 273 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 4: And again they told me this years ago. Right, if 274 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,200 they had just called me on Sunday and said, Kate, 275 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,039 did we mention that the guy looked like Philip Seymour Hoffman, 276 00:15:10,279 --> 00:15:13,759 my journalistic spidey sense would go off and I'd be like, Okay, 277 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,360 prove it. But again, I have this in notes going 278 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:19,360 back years, and I think that lends a lot of 279 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:24,039 credibility to their experience. And I also frankly believe in 280 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:29,000 our bodily responses to things like these are sophisticated humans. 281 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,279 They're outdoors people, they're professionals. Like, when you have that 282 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,000 strong of a visceral reaction to something, I key in 283 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,720 on that. I think there's something to that. 284 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 3: I want to go back to some of our listener questions, 285 00:15:42,159 --> 00:15:45,639 because when we say they've been clamoring to hear from you, 286 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,080 we are not exaggerating in any way. So many people 287 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,679 as soon as we put the word out, and I 288 00:15:51,679 --> 00:15:54,720 think it was immediately after the press conference and Bill 289 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,600 was like, we got to talk to Kate. I put 290 00:15:56,639 --> 00:15:58,200 out a little thing and said yes, we're having Kate 291 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,000 Miles on the pot and everyone was like yeah. 292 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: They blew up. They were so excited. There's a lot 293 00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:04,000 you have a lot of fans. 294 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,159 Speaker 4: I need to say how much that means to me, 295 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,960 just really quickly. This work is so hard, as you 296 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,000 two know, and you sometimes really feel like you live 297 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,279 in a vacuum and it's a really ugly, yucky vacuum, 298 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:18,799 and so I just want to quickly say that hearing 299 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,559 that just makes this work that much easier. And so 300 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:24,279 I just want to thank you all for that so much. 301 00:16:24,879 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 3: And this actually leads into a comment here from Raven 302 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,639 and she starts by saying that you're an absolutely wonderful 303 00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:35,639 person and she is so thrilled to have done an 304 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,759 interview with you when Trailed was released. I'll do first 305 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:40,399 and last names a little bit later, but you may 306 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,200 know who I'm talking about. 307 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,519 Speaker 4: I know exactly who you're talking about, Okay. 308 00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:45,759 Speaker 3: She said, I'm so glad that Kate gets to see 309 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:48,000 some resolution, as most of us who write about cold 310 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:51,559 cases do not. How do you feel about the fact 311 00:16:51,639 --> 00:16:55,240 that you have an answer? Finally, for Julian Lawy, that's 312 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:57,840 got to feel. I actually don't want to put words 313 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,720 into your mouth. You tell us, how does it feel. 314 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 4: I was not prepared for the significance, and I'd even 315 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,799 go so far as to say the severity of the 316 00:17:05,799 --> 00:17:09,400 emotional response that I had when this happened. I think 317 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,400 I had thought about it intellectually, but I hadn't thought 318 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,960 about what it would mean. And as I say in 319 00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:18,839 the book, Lolly and Julie's story had resonated with me 320 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,640 on a very personal level from the start by sheer coincidence. 321 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:25,000 Beginning in two thousand and one, as a twenty seven 322 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,799 year old, I took my first college teaching job at 323 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,200 Unity College, which is where Lollie had been a student 324 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,519 when she was murdered, and so I was immediately thrust 325 00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:38,319 into her friend group. Her professors had become my colleagues, 326 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:41,960 and along the way I have gotten to know their 327 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,920 friends and family, and I've seen firsthand how significantly this 328 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,200 has impacted them. So there was a lot going on 329 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,279 in my tiny little brain that day, and I am 330 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,200 obviously delighted that we can hopefully say we know who 331 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,440 did this and move on. And I think that's really important. 332 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:04,039 I think the word closure is a tricky one. I 333 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:07,880 don't know that anybody has closure because of this. I 334 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,599 think that potentially being able to identify the perpetrator here 335 00:18:11,759 --> 00:18:16,880 is important and great. I personally left that press conference 336 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,039 with far more questions than I had answered, and it 337 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,240 definitely created these two minds of me where I was 338 00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:29,480 feeling and experiencing and talking to friends and family who 339 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:34,200 felt some real relief. They also were very angry, as 340 00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:37,319 I am as well too. So I think parsing all 341 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,440 of that out is really tricky, Even these number of 342 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:41,319 days later. 343 00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely I can see that. And so then before we 344 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,640 get to more listener questions, let's go ahead and jump in. 345 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,559 Let's talk about the press conference. As Bill and I 346 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,240 are fully aware, there is a lot that the FBI 347 00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:57,480 will not say in their press conferences, and there was 348 00:18:57,519 --> 00:18:59,599 a lot left unsaid here. So Kate, why don't you 349 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,359 run us through what didn't you get an answer to 350 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,960 that you feel is really appropriate for them to answer. 351 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 4: The short answer is just about everything. Right. Look, I 352 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,720 have made no secret that a the FBI is a 353 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,839 black box indefensible ways that make it very difficult for 354 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,319 journalists to do their work and make it very difficult 355 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,359 for family members like Bill to exist in the world, 356 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,519 and they need to improve on both of those things immediately. I, 357 00:19:29,799 --> 00:19:32,960 as a journalist, am always paying attention not only to 358 00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:35,880 what is said, but what is not said, and I 359 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,160 think both of those things are really important here. First 360 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,960 of all, the FBI, I think really misled folks in 361 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,519 some real ways in that press conference, particularly concerning their 362 00:19:46,599 --> 00:19:50,440 treatment of Darryl David Rice, who your listeners may recall 363 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,880 was indicted for capital murder in two thousand and two. Again, 364 00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:59,640 John Ashcroft and the DOJ were seeking the death penalty 365 00:19:59,759 --> 00:20:04,319 again Daryl Rice. They prosecuted to the point of persecution 366 00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:08,799 Daryl Rice. They excluded all other suspects because they were 367 00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:12,440 so single minded in their belief that Daryl Rice was guilty, 368 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,519 and they persisted in that well after the publication of 369 00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:18,319 this book. So what I did not hear, for starters 370 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,799 was any accountability in terms of the treatment Darryl Rice had, 371 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,319 and I would be happy to unpack that in more detail. 372 00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:28,960 They certainly did not apologize to Rice. They did not 373 00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:32,759 acknowledge the tremendous damage they've done to him. They did 374 00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:36,359 not acknowledge the way in which their own confirmation bias 375 00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:41,079 meant that we only now think that Jackson has done 376 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:44,000 this after he is dead. So this case will never 377 00:20:44,079 --> 00:20:47,880 officially be closed because they can only say they believe 378 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:52,960 he's responsible based on the DNA, so that prosecution will 379 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,640 never happen. And because that prosecution will never happen, we 380 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,279 will never get any more answers than the FBI wants 381 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:02,960 to give us if in the case of Dale Rice. 382 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:04,920 One of the main reasons I was able to do 383 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,400 the work I did in the book is because of 384 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,319 what's called discovery rules in court. Right. Discovery rules are 385 00:21:12,599 --> 00:21:15,880 the prosecution of the defense have to exchange evidence before 386 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,240 the case, and because that occurred, I had a lot 387 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,599 of resources available to me. Because this is never going 388 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,480 to court. The FBI doesn't have to answer any questions, 389 00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:29,400 does not have to show their work. And there are 390 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,640 myriad questions, both in terms of what they said, some 391 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,799 of which I think is patently misleading at that press conference, 392 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:39,119 and what they didn't say and what they are now 393 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,359 refusing to say. That is not acceptable for anyone. 394 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: This is beyond garbage. Because now the FBI plays it 395 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:53,680 both ways. I can't help but can compare and contrast. 396 00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:57,559 In the Colonial Parkway murders, they're saying, oh, no, we 397 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,960 can't answer those questions of the suspect in that case 398 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,839 because it's an ongoing and investigation. And I do understand 399 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,519 that to a certain extent. But when the question came 400 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:15,880 up January eighth that the murder of Robin Edwards and 401 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,240 David Nobling as part of the Colonial Parkway murders had 402 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:23,799 been resolved, a number of press people sent in foyer 403 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,759 Freedom of Information Act requests for more information, In other words, 404 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:31,720 how did you solve this case? All of a sudden, 405 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,359 the FBI and the Virginia State Police are backing up 406 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,480 saying we didn't mean to say that the case was closed. 407 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:42,359 Oh no, we can't provide any additional information. Now turned 408 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:48,240 to Julian Lawley's case. It is truly exciting news, and 409 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,960 it is good news. I would argue, as the brother 410 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,359 of a murder victim, when you've been waiting for twenty 411 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,160 eight years for answers in terms of who killed your 412 00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:01,440 loved one, to have those answers, it's not going to 413 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,720 make your life perfect, but it is something you've been 414 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,759 seeking for nearly thirty years. Your point that they're not 415 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,400 going to answer any more questions, this is beyond the beyond. 416 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,160 This is completely unacceptable. There are so many questions that 417 00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:22,039 I have about how they arrived at identifying Jackson as 418 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:25,319 a suspect. And I think, and I will say this 419 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,000 repeatedly until the FBI responds in a meaningful way. They 420 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:34,119 have a responsibility to the people of Virginia and the 421 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:40,799 American citizens. We have a right to know how this happened, 422 00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:46,839 how was this case solved. I'm not a big fan 423 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,880 of Daryl David Rice personally. I think he has his 424 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,319 own set of extreme issues. So I'm not liked in 425 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,960 the Daryl David Rice camp with both feet far from it, 426 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:04,880 but I know they're never. The FBI will never apologize, 427 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,599 they'll never admit fault, they'll never say they were sorry. 428 00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:11,000 They did the same thing to our families when we 429 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,359 found out they had destroyed my sister's rape kit and 430 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,880 that of Rebecca Dowski. They burned them as medical waste, 431 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,319 eight years after the fact, and they refuse to apologize, 432 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,680 They refuse to even call it a mistake to burn 433 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,319 someone's evidence in an unsolved capital murder case. The FBI 434 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:36,119 owes the American people an explanation for how this case 435 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:38,200 was solved, full stop. 436 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, And before we even get to that, let 437 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,279 me just remind folks that, regardless of your thoughts on 438 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,839 Darryl Rice, let's just quickly unpack the incredible links they 439 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,640 went to to try to coerce a confession from this guy, 440 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,440 despite the fact that their lab repeatedly demonstrated that his 441 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,720 DNA could be exclusively excluded from all of the evidence 442 00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:06,559 taken from the seat. And let's also remind folks that 443 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,599 Darryl Rice had an ironclad alibi for May twenty eighth, 444 00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:13,599 which is when the medical examiner said that the women 445 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,640 were killed, and that when that happened, both the FBI 446 00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:20,960 and the Park Service walked back the date of death 447 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,480 three days, and all of a sudden, we're like, oh, 448 00:25:24,519 --> 00:25:28,160 the medical examiner using the best technology available to determine 449 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,880 time of death was wrong. It was actually May twenty fifth, 450 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,680 and again the women were found on May thirty first, 451 00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:38,640 there was no sign of decomposition on the women, and 452 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,880 so then again they went out to discredit and intimidate witnesses, 453 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,759 like there is actual malfeasons that happened here, and that 454 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:50,599 doesn't even go into the untold resources that they spent 455 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:55,559 after Daryl Rice's DNA was excluded to try to entrap 456 00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:57,400 and coerce him into a confession. 457 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,799 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder or we'll be right 458 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:06,680 back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here 459 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,039 at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, 460 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,160 just wanted to remind you that we have a go 461 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:16,480 fundme effort going on right now. This campaign is designed 462 00:26:16,519 --> 00:26:20,079 to help us raise funds to help promote mindover Murder 463 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,359 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 464 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:28,119 We'd love it if you could support us in any 465 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,119 way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to 466 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,160 whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will 467 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,119 be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes 468 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,880 and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for 469 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,000 your support. Now back to mind. 470 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 4: Over Murder, putting undercover counter terrorist investigators in his cell, 471 00:26:50,839 --> 00:26:54,480 a three year pen pal campaign, fabricating issues of The 472 00:26:54,599 --> 00:26:59,880 Washington Post using Darryll's mental illness to try to coerce confuction, 473 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,240 and then even after he was released for the nineteen 474 00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:07,799 ninety seven crime, planting stories about Darryl in papers such 475 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:10,319 that Daryl basically had to go underground, which is where 476 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:10,880 he is now. 477 00:27:11,319 --> 00:27:13,839 Speaker 3: Can I quote from your own book for a second, please, 478 00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:17,160 because I was just rereading this earlier today and I 479 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,920 went through and like I'd annotated it even more than 480 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,839 I already annotated at the first time. 481 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,279 Speaker 4: I just send you a new copy by. 482 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,079 Speaker 3: That, But I just this really encapsulates what you were 483 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,039 just saying, and I happen to have highlighted it a 484 00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:32,480 little bit earlier today. Over the next five years, investigators 485 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,000 went to extraordinary links, not just relying on forensic analysis 486 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:41,759 and physical evidence, but also employing extensive psychological profiling, exhaustive interviews, 487 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:45,720 and an undercover FBI agent whom they embedded in Rice's cell. 488 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,720 But in the end, the only evidence they had implicating 489 00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:55,400 Rice was, by Tim Alley's own admission, only circumstantial. Mic Drop. 490 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,400 I mean, you couldn't put it any better than that. 491 00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,319 That's insane. 492 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:04,079 Speaker 2: They hounded this guy for decades and destroyed his life, 493 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,279 There's no question about it. Not the FBI's finest hour. 494 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,039 Speaker 3: No, it's not. And the fact that you know, as 495 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,720 Kate was saying, are not going to apologize. You said 496 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,359 this too, Bill, and I agree with you. They're not 497 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,039 going to apologize. They're not going to offer accountability. That's 498 00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:21,599 so important. You and I have used that term a 499 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,559 number of times with regard to our friends at the FBI, 500 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,279 good evening, to the analysts who are listening. Accountability and 501 00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:30,960 transparency are not their strong points, and they know it 502 00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:34,160 because it is all about reputation and face saving. And 503 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:37,160 here again is another example of them deciding, you know what, 504 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,880 we screwed up, and we know we screwed up, but 505 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,400 we're not going to mention that to anybody. Hopefully they're 506 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,279 going to forget about it. Kate didn't forget. Bill didn't forget. 507 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,480 We've got the receipts it's right there in Kate's book. 508 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,279 It's garbage what they're doing. 509 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,839 Speaker 4: And not only that, but at this press conference, they 510 00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:52,839 went out of their way to try to justify the 511 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,519 fact that they had honed in on Darryl Rice. And 512 00:28:56,559 --> 00:28:58,759 these are my words, not the words of the FBI 513 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,640 that then proceeded to say that they basically had to 514 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,880 have a series of lemonade stands to pay for this 515 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,000 new DNA testing. And I really want to unpack all 516 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,200 of that, to which I say, hey, guess what, had 517 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,319 you not hounded Darryl Rice to these indefensible means when 518 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,039 your own lab told you he wasn't the guy, you 519 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:21,400 would have had the financial resources that you needed to 520 00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:24,680 test this DNA. Dale Rice's legal team had been asking 521 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,799 repeatedly for this DNA to be retested. They've been asking 522 00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:31,640 since two thousand and four for this, and we kept 523 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,039 being told it didn't need to be retested. And again, 524 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,640 I am not anti law enforcement. I am not. However, 525 00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:43,480 I will say that when you make the kind of 526 00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:47,559 egregious mistakes that were repeatedly made in this case over 527 00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:50,599 the course of almost thirty years, you would buy a 528 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,160 lot of trust with the American public. If you would 529 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,119 own that, and I would really like to see the 530 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,279 Attorney General's Office and the Department of Justice stand up 531 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:02,039 and say, look, we did this wrong, and we're going 532 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:06,079 to immediately have an internal investigation to understand why this 533 00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:09,519 went sideways so badly and so that it doesn't happen again, 534 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,720 because we see again and again this level of confirmation 535 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,960 bias completely steinying investigations, which is why we have two 536 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:21,519 hundred and fifty thousand cold cases in America right now. 537 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're seeing a new number, by the way, from 538 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,200 reliable sources that now put that number at three hundred 539 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,039 and fifty thousand unsolved cold case homicides in the United States. 540 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:36,519 Speaker 4: Many of which, like Lolly and Julie, are solvable if 541 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:39,759 you are willing to continue to look at this with 542 00:30:39,839 --> 00:30:44,480 a beginner's mind, right or retesting DNA or for instance, 543 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,839 loading DNA results to CODIS, which I know you all 544 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,599 have had some experience with in terms of even being 545 00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:53,799 able to figure out what DNA is loaded to codis 546 00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:56,519 and why. But look, we had Jackson's DNA a long 547 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:01,079 time ago, we had the DNA technology needed to test it. 548 00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:04,839 The FBI lab has had the DNA technology to test 549 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,680 this for twenty years, really, and so this idea that 550 00:31:08,839 --> 00:31:12,359 new techniques have suddenly emerged that make this possible, I'm 551 00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:13,519 going to call BS on that. 552 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, now I will as well. One of 553 00:31:17,759 --> 00:31:21,920 my first reactions to reading the FBI press release, which 554 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:25,240 came out shortly after the press conference started, was, wait 555 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:29,920 a minute, there's nothing in this material as put out 556 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,480 that indicates that there's anything new about the evidence that 557 00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:39,920 they've had in this case since nineteen ninety six. I 558 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,720 do agree there have been significant advances in forensics in 559 00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:48,039 the last ten years, certainly in the last five years 560 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,599 post Golden State Killer, but that evidence was all there, 561 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:52,799 this entire. 562 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, and let's be clear. They had the saliva of 563 00:31:55,519 --> 00:31:59,039 the perpetrator. They had hair that was in the duct tape, 564 00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:02,359 They had hair that was in the gloves, They had 565 00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:06,440 cigarette butts, they had a beer can, all of which 566 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,160 we believe. There was a Mountain dew bottle in a 567 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,759 Walmart bag, which was not brought by Lollly and Julie. 568 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,680 They had the evidence to retest again back in two 569 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,960 thousand and four. What they did not say, among other 570 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:24,400 things at the press conference, is what of this DNA 571 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,640 they tested. We don't know, for instance, if it was 572 00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,680 trace DNA. We don't know if it was the saliva. 573 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,759 We don't know why it was sent to a private 574 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:39,079 lab when FBI Forensics at Quantico is more than capable 575 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:42,799 of taking care of this. We don't know what DNA 576 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,240 technique was used to test this. The other thing that 577 00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:48,920 was very notable to me was the fact that they 578 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,920 stated that had Jackson been alive at the time of 579 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,920 the press conference, that he absolutely would have been charged 580 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,720 not only with two counts of murder, but also with rape. 581 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,039 That is new. That is new. Rice notably was not 582 00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:08,759 charged with rape. I have the medical examiner's reports. No 583 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,480 semen was found, no sperm were found. I'm not saying 584 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,039 that Lolly and Julie were not raped. We've always believed 585 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:17,240 that this was a sexual crime, and we've always believed 586 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,319 that Julie was a target. But that's a bomb drop 587 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,200 that all of a sudden we know without the fact 588 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,680 that these two women were raped. So based on what exactly, 589 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,000 and again I'm not doubting the findings, but I am 590 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:32,000 saying it is notable that they are not explaining any 591 00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:33,599 of these findings. 592 00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:37,359 Speaker 2: And after twenty eight years of maintaining that Julie and 593 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,319 Lollie were not sexually assaulted to come out and say 594 00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:45,119 that they were sexually assaulted. Again, I agree with you, Kate. 595 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,839 I'm not disputing what they're saying. They owe us more, 596 00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:53,119 and I don't mean the three of us, Kristen, Kate, 597 00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:57,160 and Bill. They owe all of us more of an 598 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,720 explanation than we're getting for them to come out and 599 00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:06,759 say the two women were sexually assaulted. Okay, by what evidence? 600 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,840 How did you solve this case? How did you connect 601 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,440 Jackson and Kate? As you're saying, this evidence has been 602 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,119 sitting in evidence lockers since nineteen ninety six, So what's 603 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,800 new here? Their failure to answer basic questions about how 604 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,000 they solved this. I get the fact that Special Agent 605 00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:32,119 charge Meter is proud of the fact that when he 606 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,480 came in and took over that Richmond office, he ordered 607 00:34:35,519 --> 00:34:37,800 a top to bottom review of this case. As I 608 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,559 understand it, that's great. So what did they find. We're 609 00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:47,360 not taking Jackson to court here, There isn't there There 610 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,280 aren't going to be any charges filed. But I think 611 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,639 we deserve answers to these questions, and we're just starting 612 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,320 on the first pass here. Now, you recently sent a 613 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,159 letter to the FBI with a series of questions. 614 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,199 Speaker 4: I did, and I asked them a variety of questions, 615 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,239 including what DNA was retested, what evidence was retested. I 616 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,599 asked them what mechanism was used to retest it. I 617 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,800 asked why a private lab was used. I asked whether 618 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,559 there was any DNA found that was not Jackson, Lay 619 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:27,159 and Julie. I asked whether there was going to be 620 00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:29,840 an internal investigation. I asked whether there was going to 621 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,440 be an apology for Daryl Rice. I asked whether these 622 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,320 results were loaded to CODIS. I asked whether they were 623 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,320 going to be compared to some of the very similar 624 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,480 crimes that happened, including Alicia Showalter Reynolds, and I was 625 00:35:42,559 --> 00:35:46,440 told that no further information would be forthcoming and that 626 00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:49,400 they would not be answering these or any other questions. 627 00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 3: Those are questions very similar to things that our listeners 628 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,280 are also asking. One that I think was particularly interesting 629 00:35:58,679 --> 00:36:03,400 is from a listener who lives in that area of Virginia. 630 00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:07,920 Karen says, does Leo does Leo Jackson have links to 631 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,000 Virginia and what is the probability that he could be 632 00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:14,920 the perpetrator in other unsolved cases in Virginia during the 633 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,440 times he was not incarcerated. I am not trying to 634 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,519 pin every unsolved case on him, but we now know 635 00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:24,559 he was in Virginia at least one time. It is 636 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:27,079 so scary to think we had multiple creeps praying on 637 00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:29,960 the area of the Commonwealth that I deem a safe 638 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,119 place to live, work and raise my daughters. And I 639 00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:34,920 think Karen's bringing up a great point here, what do 640 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,480 you think about whether or not he might be linked 641 00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:39,320 to some of these other crimes. I realize it's only 642 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,840 supposition on our parts, but do you want to lay 643 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:42,639 that out a little bit? 644 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,119 Speaker 4: Sure? Absolutely, What the FBI tells us is that he 645 00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:49,800 was an avid hiker. Again, it's not clear to me 646 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,880 how and why they know that, but assuming that they're 647 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,719 telling us the truth here, we know that we know 648 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,519 that he was a serial rapist. What forensic profilers are 649 00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:03,199 telling me is, Look, it's a really big jump from 650 00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:09,320 being a serial rapist to someone who commits a very sophisticated, 651 00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:15,440 very controlled double homicide of two strong outdoor leaders who 652 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,280 also have a dog with them. This is a person 653 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,000 who arrived with a murder kit. This is a person 654 00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:24,519 we know who had duct tape, who had a very 655 00:37:24,639 --> 00:37:28,760 large serrated knife, who knew how to commit this crime 656 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,039 in a way that would leave very little trace. So 657 00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:34,599 the idea that this that Jackson would go from serial 658 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,519 rape to super sophisticated controlled double homicide doesn't really work, 659 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,639 doesn't really track with many people, and so probably we 660 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,880 don't know. But probably if Jackson is in fact the 661 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,639 perpetrator here, there's some middle, pretty big middle chapter we 662 00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:54,960 don't know about where he went from rape to double 663 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,559 homicide in such a controlled way. The other question, then, 664 00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:01,639 of course, is what we know. Obviously, there are plenty 665 00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:06,199 of serial killers and violent offenders who stop killing and 666 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,280 go on to live lives, so it is possible that 667 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,039 would happen. But it's also a little improbable that this 668 00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:16,840 person would make the jump from serial rape to sophisticated 669 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,840 double homicide and then return to rape, which we know 670 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,360 he did almost immediately within, but then not return to killing. 671 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,519 That doesn't seem likely. It's possible, but it doesn't seem likely. 672 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,480 Is it the case, for instance, that Jackson is in 673 00:38:33,519 --> 00:38:38,239 fact responsible for other murders? I think that's likely. To 674 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,920 what degree are we looking at? Has the FBI, for instance, 675 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,440 formed a special task force, which they did very briefly 676 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,440 with mark of Hoonness, but then disbanded that task force 677 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,159 before it had done any work. I think that these 678 00:38:51,159 --> 00:38:54,599 are all again questions that need to be answered, and 679 00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:56,920 what I'm being told by experts in the field is 680 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,000 that probably there was at least one, if not multiple 681 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:03,679 murders between rape and Lolly and Julie. So what's being 682 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,159 done to parse that out. 683 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 2: Some of our experts have told us about escalation, and 684 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,280 we've talked about how offenders will start and they'll grow. 685 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,480 This is not in the positive sense, but they'll grow 686 00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:23,599 into extreme violence, which ultimately may lead them to crimes 687 00:39:23,639 --> 00:39:27,840 like this involving rape and murder. I'm disturbed that they 688 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,960 seem to be saying he's over here in Ohio committing 689 00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:36,119 pretty heinous rapes and the word kidnapping has been used 690 00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:36,559 as well. 691 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,079 Speaker 4: Yees correct at my point, which is good right. 692 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,639 Speaker 2: Now, but that could be part of a pattern of escalation, 693 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,559 without question, But they're really failing to address how they 694 00:39:47,599 --> 00:39:51,119 think this guy got to this point. One other thing 695 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,440 I'm terribly disturbed about is they made this statement that 696 00:39:55,519 --> 00:39:59,119 this was not a hate crime I don't know if 697 00:39:59,159 --> 00:40:02,000 this was a hate crime. I don't know that it 698 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,480 wasn't a hate crime, and I'm sure not very comfortable 699 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,599 with the FBI blithely announcing this was not a hate crime, 700 00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:13,400 because Kathy and Becky's murder in the Colonial Parkway murders 701 00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:15,679 could be a hate crime as well. I don't know 702 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,400 yet if it is or it isn't. I hope to 703 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,920 have answers someday. I don't know how they can make 704 00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:25,400 this statement that the murder of Julie Williams and Lawley 705 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,599 Wining's was not a hate crime. By what standard of 706 00:40:29,639 --> 00:40:35,119 evidence are you telling me you've researched this exceptionally violent, 707 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,440 horrible man's history, because you're not finding any overt expressions 708 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,519 of homophobia or a hatred of lesbians. He certainly is 709 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:48,679 someone I could argue hates women on some level. He's 710 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:54,039 out attacking women repeatedly. Where does the FBI get off 711 00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:57,559 suddenly announcing, oh, this wasn't a hate crime? Is that 712 00:40:57,639 --> 00:41:00,320 because they made such a big deal back in the 713 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,800 DARYLD David Rice era that this was a hate crime 714 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,920 and now that we've clearly screwed up and that wasn't 715 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,599 the right guy, and now we finally identified the offender. Oh, 716 00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:13,400 but it's not a hate crime because that's sterile David 717 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:14,320 Rice's department. 718 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 3: For anybody who wasn't able to watch the press conference, 719 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,159 I want to put that remark in context here for 720 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,519 a second. This is what was said with regard to 721 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,920 the hate crime or not hate crime aspect. Quote, make 722 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,800 no mistake, this crime was brutal. This crime was definitionally hateful. Nevertheless, 723 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,480 we do not have any evidence that the victims were 724 00:41:33,519 --> 00:41:37,280 selected for, or that Jackson had any knowledge of, or 725 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,480 was otherwise motivated by their membership in a protected class. 726 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,920 Quote hate You want to sure, Leena. 727 00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 4: First, I want to say that there's the legal definition 728 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,119 of hate crime, and then there's the social reality of 729 00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:54,480 hate crime. This was absolutely a hate crime in the 730 00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:57,280 sense that it did, in fact mean that a lot 731 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:02,159 of people who identify as feminine or female or queer 732 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,639 felt like they could not go to the wilderness after 733 00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:08,960 this crime occurred, and in that regard, it had the 734 00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:12,840 impact of a hate crime on an entire generation of people. 735 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,159 The legal definition of hate crime means that you're identifying 736 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,880 someone because of certain protected groups, and you mentioned that, 737 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,079 so obviously in this case, it's Lolly and Julie's sexuality. 738 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,960 I think it's very important to remind folks that investigators 739 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:32,079 did not believe that this was a hate crime going 740 00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:35,440 into this, and that what investigators told me is that 741 00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:38,800 they were blind sided in two thousand and two when 742 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,679 John Ashcroft announced that he was going to be treating 743 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,719 this as a hate crime, because they had no evidence 744 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,800 of that. In fact, it took them quite a while 745 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,039 to realize that Lolly and Julie were in a same 746 00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:52,440 sex relationship, and again to prove that this was a 747 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,840 hate crime, which was a pretty political stunt. In my opinion, 748 00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:59,000 This is right in the wake of September eleventh, John 749 00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:02,559 Ashcroft and the DOOJA is under tremendous pressure to show 750 00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:04,599 that they're going to be tough on hate crimes, which 751 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,559 at that time we're escalating against Muslim Americans, people who 752 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:13,119 looked like Muslim or Middle Eastern Americans. They were under 753 00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:15,679 a ton of pressure from various groups to show that 754 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:17,960 they're going to be willing to take action. In the 755 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,639 spring of two thousand and two, they announced the indictment 756 00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:23,159 against Rice, and they announced that they would be training 757 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,800 it as a hate crime. What is very important here 758 00:43:26,199 --> 00:43:29,760 is the evidence that they use to substantiate that. After 759 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,039 a very long interrogation, Darryl Rice was returned to a 760 00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:37,760 holding cell where a jailhouse snitch was wearing a wire. 761 00:43:38,159 --> 00:43:41,360 And I have this transcript in which Daryl says, this 762 00:43:41,519 --> 00:43:44,719 is crap, basically, and the snitch says, what do you mean? 763 00:43:45,199 --> 00:43:48,199 And Darryl says, they keep trying to get me to 764 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,360 say that I hate gay people, and the snitches that's bullshit, 765 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,480 and Daryl's like, that's right. And what they did is 766 00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:59,039 they clipped that recording so that it just said I 767 00:43:59,199 --> 00:44:02,840 hate gay peace, and they used that to seek the 768 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,599 death penalty against Daryl Rice when it was clearly taken 769 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,920 completely out of contact. So prior to that moment, there 770 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,719 was no evidence that Rice or anyone else even knew 771 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,639 about Lolly and Julie's sexuality. So again this is the 772 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,880 flip flopping. We don't know if the perpetrator knew Lolly 773 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,079 and julie sexuality. We will probably never know that, but 774 00:44:24,199 --> 00:44:27,480 they from ninety six until two thousand and two it 775 00:44:27,519 --> 00:44:30,800 was not a hate crime, and the perpetrator didn't know then. 776 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,800 From two thousand and two, until twenty twenty four, definitely 777 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,000 a hate crime. Definitely Daryl Rice and now all of 778 00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:41,280 a sudden summer of twenty twenty four, definitely not a 779 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,400 hate crime based on what and why are you flip 780 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,960 flopping without again giving us any reason for these changes. 781 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 2: I was shocked that they brought it up. There's so 782 00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:54,760 much about this. This just doesn't pass the smell test here. 783 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,599 They're not giving, not even close to complete information. It'd 784 00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,400 be one thing if they actually sat members of the 785 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,239 media down and took some pride in their work and 786 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,480 showed us how they got to where they got to 787 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,719 in terms of identifying Jackson. There's some great work that 788 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,079 went into this case, and there's probably some real aha 789 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,840 moments from people whose names we will never know by 790 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:26,440 not explaining their work, especially given all the screw ups 791 00:45:26,679 --> 00:45:31,960 and all the wrong headed, waste of time approaches in 792 00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:36,920 this case, focusing on Rice and then refusing to even 793 00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:42,199 consider other alternative suspects, suddenly wanting to wrap this all 794 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,960 up in a tight little bow, this perfect little package. 795 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:52,480 It just isn't working. This press conference was woefully inadequate. 796 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,039 If anything creates more questions than any answers that it 797 00:45:57,079 --> 00:45:57,880 would have provided. 798 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 4: And let's look at other recent cold cases, like high 799 00:46:01,519 --> 00:46:04,159 profile cold cases that have been solved. The folks at 800 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,639 Parabon Nano has done some great work with all the 801 00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:11,199 genetic forensics. We've seen some high profile cases solved where 802 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,239 the investigators rightly stand up and proudly take credit for 803 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,559 the work. And yes, they should and we should all 804 00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:20,960 be really impressed, right, So I'm not bemoaning that. Think 805 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,159 about a case like Dark Angelo, for instance, where they're like, look, 806 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,360 here's what we did. We took his trash, we found 807 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,039 a coffee cup, we took DNA from the coffee cup, 808 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,880 we loaded it to I don't know what it was, 809 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,519 twenty three and meters or ancestry dot com or whatever, 810 00:46:35,559 --> 00:46:38,679 and we got this hit of his aunt or in 811 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,280 the case of the BTK killer right where all of 812 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,440 a sudden they're like, look, we went in and we 813 00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:49,440 got the pat smear results of his daughter and used that. 814 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,760 So they've been very clear about how they did their work, 815 00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:57,280 because again, we don't want to interfere with investigations when 816 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,599 they're happening. Investigations need to be largely secret. That's fine. 817 00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:03,320 You don't need to tell us what you're doing while 818 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,159 you're doing it. But in a case like this, what 819 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,559 are they losing by telling us how they did this work? 820 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,440 I would argue absolutely nothing. I would argue again, I'm 821 00:47:13,519 --> 00:47:17,280 super curious why a private lab, Why did you need that? Again, 822 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,400 what were you testing or retesting? And why is it 823 00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:24,039 not in the public's best interest to know? When I 824 00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:26,719 asked them through a foyer request to tell me whether 825 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,519 or not Mark A. Vonnitz's DNA has been loaded to COTIS, 826 00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:33,840 because probably it hasn't been, I was told that it 827 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,880 was not in the public's best interest to know if 828 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,880 a known serial killer's DNA was loaded to codis. How 829 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,480 is that a defendable position? 830 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, which probably just means no, they haven't loaded it 831 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,199 and they don't want to admit it. Any kind of 832 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,280 non answer like that makes me go then you know 833 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:50,679 the answer is no, you didn't load it. 834 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,199 Speaker 4: And are you looking at Jackson for instance? Alicia Showalter 835 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,840 Reynolds very tragic murder? What about Anne McDaniels, what about 836 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,840 Philmas Froggins, What about these other people who are about 837 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,840 the spate of crimes? We may never know to what 838 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,760 degree those are ongoing investigations or to what degree any 839 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,719 of these now known perpetrators are being compared to these 840 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,599 other similar and contemporaneous crimes. 841 00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 3: We have so many more questions for Kayden, so much 842 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,880 more to discussing, so many more opportunities for Bill to 843 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,400 rail against the FBI, that we're going to go ahead 844 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,840 and continue this in a second episode for right now. 845 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:29,880 Thank you so much for joining us on this episode 846 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,960 of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. 847 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,840 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 848 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,360 Another Dog Productions. 849 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,280 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 850 00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:53,039 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 851 00:48:53,679 --> 00:48:55,719 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 852 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,639 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space. 853 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:00,840 Meetia Yeah. 854 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,280 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 855 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 856 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:08,719 Murders on Facebook. 857 00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:11,599 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 858 00:49:11,639 --> 00:49:13,239 Bill Thomas five six. 859 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.