WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:05.519 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pee Kenyanas show. Thomas, 2 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.519 we got a new series that you wanted to start here. 3 00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:12.000 You mentioned it, and I was like, we need to 4 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:17.160 jump all over it, especially since you mentioned the Oppenheimer 5 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.039 movie that's out and that this would be, uh, this 6 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:24.399 would be a good supplement or side by side to it. 7 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:27.559 So tell everybody a little bit about what's your what 8 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:28.120 you're thinking. 9 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:34.280 I want to discuss the German atomic bomb, like everything 10 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.079 about it, like if such a program existed, you know, 11 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:43.159 conceptually what you know, what what was the cattos for it? 12 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.240 You know what what was the state of of science 13 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:51.240 at the time. And also in in kind of more 14 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.320 apocal terms, you know, I want to talk about nuclear 15 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:59.799 weapons generally, or atomic weapons in that era. You know, 16 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.880 people people I misunderstanding about about about the bomb and 17 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:11.439 about nuclear weapons generally. They uh, people like Thomas Schilling 18 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.480 and like Herman Khan. They made the point that nuclear 19 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:17.159 weapons are like any other weapons, they're just far far 20 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:24.040 more muscle bound. The uh, the ability to impose you know, 21 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:27.319 devastating attrition in an instant the system, you know, marks 22 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:34.120 them apart as does you know, very like strategic variables 23 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:39.159 relating to their destructive power and creates peculiar paradigms. I mean, 24 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:43.319 oh that is true, okay, but they don't have they 25 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.560 don't have great utility in any kind of like general 26 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:53.120 applied sense, and there's there's actually very few paradigms where 27 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:57.319 they really are are a game changer or that they 28 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.599 really advance, you know, the the themiliar strangers of the state, 29 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:05.200 you know, instantaneously, you know, like it there's this kind 30 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.159 of like there's this kind of like mythical belief and 31 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:10.520 super weapons just I mean, it's like an ongoing thing 32 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.120 that it just seems to have people assign a kind 33 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:17.000 of mystique, you know, to wartech and I guess like 34 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:18.520 nuclear weapons could be viewed it's kind of like the 35 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:20.879 zenus of that. So I mean there's just that. But 36 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:28.520 beyond that, there's deliberately cultivated narratives around around the the 37 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.120 issue historically, like the development of the first atomic bomb. 38 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:35.520 A lot of this has to do with anti fascism, 39 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:38.960 you know, like ideologically anti fascism. A lot of this 40 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:43.000 has to do with rationalizations for you know, America's development 41 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:47.319 of the bomb and attempt to defend its monopoly on 42 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:52.719 such capabilities, you know, the there So there's this idea 43 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:57.159 that was presented by the War Department in the aftermath 44 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:04.240 of you know, the the nuclear assault in Japan that well, 45 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:06.919 we developed this thing because you know, the Third Reich 46 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:11.120 was was feverishly developing an atomic capability, and you know 47 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:13.400 that would have that would have that would have changed everything, 48 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.719 you know, and and this this evil tyrannical regime set 49 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.520 benting world domination. Could I hold hold the planet hostage 50 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:22.080 with atomic weapons? That's and that's preposterous for a lot 51 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.639 of reasons, but it does beg the question as to 52 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:31.639 was was the German Reich developing an atomic bomb actively? Uh? 53 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:35.719 That's a complicated question for a lot of reasons, not 54 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:42.840 the least of which not not uh not, the least 55 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:44.919 of which not for reasons, not the least of which 56 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:51.000 is the fact that Oppenheimer was not the quote father 57 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:53.560 of the atomic bomb. Now there was Einstein. A man 58 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:58.400 named Otto Hahn was and this didn't used to be controversial. Okay, 59 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:06.159 Who is Ato Haanohan was born in eighteen seventy nine. 60 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:11.840 He died when he was quite elderly, in July nineteen 61 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.680 sixty eight. Han is the father of nuclear chemistry and 62 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:23.639 specifically nuclear fission. Okay, Hahn and his assistant, a lady 63 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:33.800 named let's say Miitner, they discovered the radioactive isotopes of radium, thorium, 64 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:39.639 protecting them, and most importantly, uranium. In the second episode, 65 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.000 I'm no physics guy, but I do know something as 66 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:45.160 much as a layman can kind of understand these things. 67 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.639 We'll get into why uranium is so important and like 68 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.319 what uranium actually is. I'm gonna like bore everybody to death, 69 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:55.560 but it's important to understand and applied capacities. You know, 70 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:05.920 how atomic research developed into a a a discreetly military endeavor. Okay, 71 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:13.759 but Han also through his experience, through his experiments, which 72 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:20.120 were myriad, he discovered the phenomena what's called atomic recoil 73 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:27.360 in nuclear nuclear isomerism and UH he pioneered UH a 74 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:32.319 lot of the techniques that ultimately gave rise to carbon dating. Okay, 75 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.199 So the guy was a The guy was a was 76 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:41.720 was was an intellectual giant. But quite literally everybody subsequent, 77 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:49.600 every every researcher engaged in nuclear science and specifically UH 78 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.439 weapons based nuclear research. There they were literally they were 79 00:05:54.439 --> 00:06:00.120 literally borrowing from Han's research Okay, that's indisputable. And like 80 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.360 I said, at in the epoch, he was credited as such, 81 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.199 it's this idea that you know, like, oh, that the 82 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.480 Germans were just like these crazy fools and they didn't 83 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:11.959 understand physics or something or I mean, that's as nine 84 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:14.639 to be unbelief. Also like this idea that like, oh, 85 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.879 like you know, because of anti Semitism, you know, the 86 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.160 Germans didn't have a coterie of of top signific minds 87 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:23.680 like that, that's preposterous. Like not only is that preposterous, 88 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.160 but quite literally, you know, the technology that facilitated the 89 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.480 development of nuclear weapons was literally invented by the Germans. Okay, 90 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:41.519 now for background too, Han he received in ninety forty 91 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:45.519 four the Nobel Prize for Chemistry. And and just we'll 92 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.240 get into this again in a second and third episodes. 93 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:49.560 I think we I think it should probably be a 94 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:55.120 three part series. But the but but just nuclear fission 95 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:57.879 was that wasn't is the basis for nuclear reactors as 96 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.040 well as nuclear weapons. Okay, it makes all those things 97 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:08.800 pot not just possible, but conceivable. Okay. Interestingly, interestingly, during 98 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:14.079 World War One, because uh Hans a little bit older, 99 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:18.040 he certainly love Land Regiment, which you know in the Kaisers, 100 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:22.279 in the kaiser Reich was like a reserve regiment, generally consistent, 101 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.000 like it was kind of like the home Guard or 102 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.279 like what the British is called the Territorial Army. But uh, 103 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:34.560 he actually was mobilized and deployed and uh he was 104 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:38.560 Uh he was attached to a chemical weapons unit, chemical 105 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.399 warfare unit headed by Fritz Hobert on the Western Front, 106 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.240 Eastern Front, and Italian Front. He was in heavy action. 107 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.639 And yeah, he was awarded the Iron Crossed second Class. 108 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.879 So I mean, he why do I raise this specifically? 109 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:56.000 It's not just because it's it's not just because it's 110 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:01.879 interesting trivia, but it to I am, I'm trying to 111 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.759 demonstrate the aspect of Hans's character. Hans was not averse 112 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:13.879 to the you know, applying science in in in military endeavors, okay, 113 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:18.959 in including the somewhat horrible endeavor of chemical warfare. All Right. 114 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:23.639 This becomes an issue later on as to what Hans's 115 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:31.199 view was of, you know, applying nuclear fission to to 116 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:34.840 weapons development. Okay. And plus it's just interesting background and 117 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:41.120 there's I I I believe this is very much. I 118 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.480 believe there's very much a natural progression conceptually, okay, from 119 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:50.360 chemical warfare to nuclear warfare, and I that, man, it's arguable, 120 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.159 but I think it's important. And I think people people 121 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:57.759 understand people who understand institutional thinking and the men who 122 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:00.559 populated was institutions and the way they kind of paradigms 123 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.000 that they play with, as it were. I think that 124 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.480 it's somewhat inarguable. But this kind of thing was very 125 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.240 much on on on the minds of of uh of 126 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:17.960 European physicists. Okay, the concrete engineering of what became the 127 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.159 atomic bomb wasn't and we'll get into why that was. 128 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:26.279 But uh, it's like I said, there's this like mythology, 129 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.080 there's this punative mythology that it's that both somehow simultaneously 130 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.080 that Germans were idiots who had no idea how to 131 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.360 apply uh, what was called the new physics to war 132 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:40.039 fighting and the engineering of weapons. But on the other hand, 133 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.840 they were like these maniacs hell bent on and developing 134 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.759 an atomic bomb, and you know, only the only only these, 135 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.559 like only the only these, like you know, genius askenasm, 136 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:50.919 like you know, we're able to save the day. And 137 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.840 of course, like Einstein is the father of nuclear physics, 138 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.080 and and Oppenheimer is the fire of the atomic bomb. 139 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.840 That's total nonsense, okay, And that's not a partisan take 140 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.399 and arguable for those I'm sure are gonna send me 141 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.919 hate messages about it. That's just not true. It's like, well, 142 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:13.759 I can you know, I can source all of these claims. 143 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:20.759 The let's jump to the end of the war, because 144 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:24.519 I think Irving's book The Virus House as well as 145 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:29.840 which is a source I rely on tremendously. It's the 146 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.039 best book in the German talkic bomb. There's also a 147 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:38.879 book by not By It's about It's about Edmund Teller, 148 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:45.080 And the narrative kind of begins on the date that 149 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:50.840 the of the Hiroshima attack, because that's really people don't 150 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:53.440 realizing the degree to or some Mahatant project truly was 151 00:10:53.600 --> 00:11:00.320 secret and at uh the attack that shocked the world. 152 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.200 It's rather amazing the degree to which the Manhattan Project 153 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.720 was able to maintain operational security. But I say let's 154 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:10.480 start there for a few reasons, as will become evident. 155 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.039 It's the point at which the world was quite literally 156 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.360 introduced to the atomic bomb, including a coterie of German 157 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:26.559 scientists who had been taken prisoner by six and squirrelled 158 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:30.440 off to the United Kingdom. So August sixth ninety forty five, 159 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.399 the BBC Home Service they broadcast the first news that 160 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:40.960 an atomic bomb had been dropped in Hiroshima. The boat 161 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:44.279 announced that the bomb in question contained as much explosive 162 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.879 power as two thousand of the rif ten Ton bombs. 163 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.279 President Truman had declared that the Germans had worked feverishly 164 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:55.799 to find a way to use atomic energy but had failed. 165 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:03.639 Now at a premise it's called farm Hall. This is 166 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:15.240 a country house near Huntington in UH. The in in England, 167 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.960 a coterie of German physicists were being held prisoner there 168 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:28.759 incident what was called Operation Epsilon. Operating Epsilon was the 169 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:35.399 code name for this endeavor that took place in May 170 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:41.519 one in June thirtieth, nineteen forty five, whereby the Allies 171 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:47.480 identified ten German scientists who were believed of worked on 172 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:51.360 the German atomic bomb program. And UH these men were 173 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.320 they were captured, and they were again they were squirreled 174 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.399 away to UH to England and detained. And this in 175 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:04.960 this kind of mansion house near Cambridge called farm Hall. Okay, 176 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.919 the proximity to the university is not an accident either, 177 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:11.600 because it was. It was a weird kind of incarceration 178 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:15.159 that these guys endured, because on the one hand, it 179 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.480 was very punitive. On the other hand, you know, if 180 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.480 they if you wanted these men to speak, you know, 181 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.080 London wanted these men to speak to the you know, 182 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.960 their own academics about the you know, about the bomb 183 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:28.440 and things and if you're and if you're just you know, 184 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.320 kind of like treating people like for for them to live, 185 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.120 you know, like like you know, like abject and squalor 186 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:40.000 or whatever, or you know, or abject prisoners in the 187 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.320 traditional sense that wouldn't have happened. So, I mean, it's 188 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:44.720 it kind of reminds me of the early days of 189 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:50.960 like Spear's attention. Okay, although obviously he ultimately endured true horrors, 190 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.559 as we got into in an earlier series. But the uh, 191 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:58.320 the goal nominally, and I think this is basically true. 192 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:03.000 What what m I six and the US War Department 193 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.519 both claimed independently was that the goal was to determine 194 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.840 how close the German roy had come of the development 195 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:15.360 of a viable atomic bomb. First among the detainees with 196 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:24.240 Ata Han okay it uh. And this was attested to 197 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:30.320 not just by not not just by his fellow attainees, 198 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:36.159 but but by his interrogators and and and the you know, 199 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:39.080 in the m I six men who were guarding him 200 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.559 and debriefing him. There there was concern that Han would 201 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.879 commit suicide because he was so beside himself that this 202 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.000 bomb had been created, and he blamed himself. You know, 203 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.120 it's not uh like you know that this was this 204 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:56.000 is very poignant, okay, and I don't. This is on 205 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.919 my mind, like as I watched the open Hiram movie 206 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.279 the other day, Like this idea that like Oppenheimer's single 207 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.919 like single humanly created the atomic bomb and lived with 208 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:07.320 this terrible guilt, that's ridiculous, Like that's not you know, 209 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:10.159 it's it's it's as if they like extrapolated like Hans's 210 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:13.840 life and mind and memories and you know, transposed it 211 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.759 out to this kind of character of Oppenheimer, who has 212 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.360 has some relation to the historical man was become kind 213 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.120 of like this, you know, it's almost like mythical figure. 214 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:27.799 But the uh A major thh Writtener. He was the 215 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:33.159 British officer in charge at farm Hall. He he he 216 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:34.919 he asked for Han to be brought to his office 217 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.759 immediately to to make sure that his he was stable 218 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.799 of mind, and also just wanted to speak to him about, 219 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.279 you know, what had just happened. According to Rittner, Han 220 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.519 was horrified and again he felt personally responsible for the 221 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:56.399 that's one hundred thousands of people, he told written er Han, 222 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.200 Han told Writtener, And apparently according to in the and 223 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:05.720 witnesses not just written her himself, Rittner developed something of 224 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:12.519 a rapport okay during his time there, and uh Han 225 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:17.360 had told Writtener, you know, on on on multiple occasions 226 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:22.799 that he he'd had forebodings about the potentialities of of 227 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:27.159 his discovery of of nuclear fission, but he never thought that, 228 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:32.600 you know, a weapon would be rapidly engineered and deployed 229 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:35.399 with that kind of destructive power, like not because it 230 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:42.440 was impossible. But we'll get into what what you know, 231 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.360 he thought would give a wou would would give the 232 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:50.159 scientific community pause and other things. Now, who are the 233 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:55.039 other detainees of farm Hall. There were doctor Eric Baggi 234 00:16:55.320 --> 00:17:00.200 or Bog, doctor Kurt Diener, a professor named Walter Garreluck, 235 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:06.519 Odo Han, of course, Paul Hartek, the famous Werner Heisenberg, 236 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:14.000 a man named Horst Coursing, a professor named Max von Lau, 237 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:19.119 another professor named Carl Frederick von Weisker, and the doctor 238 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:25.880 Carl Wurtz. Now the the the premises at farm Hall 239 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.039 were bugged, Okay, everywhere was from you know, the kind 240 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:32.559 of common recreation area to the private court of the men. 241 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:40.240 And this wasn't just this wasn't just incidental. One of 242 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:46.839 the key purposes of detaining the German atomic scientists was 243 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.359 the eavesdrop on the conversations between that, you know, the 244 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:56.880 men themselves. Now as the what the myrophones picked up 245 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:04.079 as the as the news was was h relaid, was 246 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:08.359 that Heisenberg. Heisenberg disputed the possibility that the Americans even 247 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:11.079 had a bomb and dropped it. Like he didn't dispute 248 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:17.640 that that Hiroshima was destroyed. But uh he he. He 249 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:20.000 believed it was some kind of conventional like some kind 250 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.720 of muscle bound conventional weapon or series of firebomb raids 251 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.119 like had been conducted over Tokyo. Over one hundred thousand 252 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.720 people died in twenty four hours, Like he thought this 253 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:33.440 was he thought this was propaganda. Okay, not because it 254 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.039 would be impossible to create a bomb, but he you know, 255 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:40.160 the scientific community was it was a peculiar thing. And 256 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:45.240 the even even you know, even on the EVA hostilities, 257 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.440 the number of men who truly understood, you know, the 258 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:54.720 new physics and were insinuated into, you know, the applied 259 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:58.519 research of these things, it was incredibly small fraternity, okay. 260 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.319 And men like that then kind of looked at themselves, 261 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:06.119 with the exception of a certain coterie they ended up 262 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.799 in America, they looked at themselves as being part of 263 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:15.440 a community that kind of transcended politics. Okay. Heisenberg he 264 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:22.119 was personally, uh friendly with a doctor Goudsmith, who was 265 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.640 the head of the American Intelligence Mission, which had debriefed 266 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:31.559 when he was initially taken prisoner, and gout Schmidt, uh 267 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.240 was a fellow physicist, and they Heisenberg Gousment knew of 268 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.440 each other, and uh, Heisenberger developed like a pretty good 269 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:45.039 rapport with him, and uh he'd asked gods Goutschmidt whether, uh, 270 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:50.720 whether atomic weapons research was something that the Allies were 271 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.079 endeavoring to uh, you know, take on or if I 272 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:59.599 or if there was any you know, background of such 273 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:03.359 apply experiments, you know, the end goal of UH of 274 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.839 weaponizing atomic energy. And Goutsman assured him that was not 275 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:10.440 the case. And I Goutsmant I guarantee had no idea 276 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:14.079 about the Mainhadan project. He was speaking totally honestly. Okay, 277 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:17.599 so maybe it was naivete some people might say in 278 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.480 the part of Heisenberg thinking like that, you know, the 279 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.799 kind of the kind of the kind of fraternity of 280 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.440 pure science would mean that, you know, no one would know, 281 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.640 no colleague would a lie to another, and such an 282 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:34.960 important and like literally earthshaking matter. But that again it 283 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.920 was different times, it was different, you know, it was uh, 284 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.240 these guys weren't ordinary academics or scientists, you know, they 285 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.559 they were like the elite of the elite of the elite. 286 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.400 And also again like Goutsmith I believe was telling the truth, 287 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.279 like he didn't know about the Manhaddan project, you know. 288 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:54.400 And plus two, I mean, like the it shocked everybody, 289 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.559 was like the war in Europe was done, Like Japan 290 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.680 was utterly destroyed and couldn't even defend itself. You know, 291 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:01.759 that's why was like like that, there's there's this lame 292 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.359 like defense, Like, oh, Japan had to be invaded because 293 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.960 they were just crazy and like a million Americans would 294 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.519 have died like that, that's ridiculous. The bomb was deployed. 295 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:14.880 These things developed their own momentum. The bomb was gonna 296 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.720 be deployed somewhere. It had been developed to destroy Europe, 297 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:20.079 which is totally insane if you think about that, you know, 298 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:22.960 like genociding your own race with with nuclear weapons. But 299 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.920 it but aside from that, it's I don't think the 300 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.200 Soviets would have stopped, you know, and they you know, 301 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:35.920 they they were, they were, they were actively the Soviets 302 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.119 had had gone to war against Japan in the final days, 303 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:42.000 you know, like who's to say, who's to say they 304 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:47.440 would have abided, you know, Truman's demands had UH had 305 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.440 the bombs plural not been deployed. But in any event, 306 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.240 that's the rapidity to which to that's time they keep 307 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:58.920 in mind, like the kind of the core concepts of 308 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:06.960 UH weaponizing nuclear energy, this is really only six years old, okay, 309 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.519 So I believe there was something of this idea that 310 00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:17.720 America could just rapidly, you know, kind of develop a 311 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.279 competency in the new physics. You know, and and within 312 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:27.359 basically half a decade, you know, develop a weaponized capability 313 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.240 like it seemed unlikely. You know, it's it was extraordinary 314 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:36.759 and putting oneself in the shoes of Heisenberg, I mean, 315 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:39.519 think about the disorientation of of what he had just 316 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.400 endured and and kind of like what of the German 317 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:51.000 like experience generally like in you know, ninety six. And 318 00:22:51.119 --> 00:23:01.319 finally too, the uh, the Americans in the British came 319 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:05.160 who you know, in operational terms, they worked fairly closely 320 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.119 in the immediate aftermath of the German defeat for for 321 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.559 practical reason that those are political ones. The uh, the 322 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:23.000 last German uranium pile laboratory to be seized, that was 323 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.599 the library staffed by Issacar and Verts. It was actually 324 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:34.799 located in the French occupation zone. And UH, the US Army, 325 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:39.839 with the sentence of the British at all costs, aimed 326 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.519 to prevent radio active material and the research data from 327 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.960 this pile laborate uranian pile laboratory from falling into French hands. 328 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.799 Like they they were singularly fixated on this, okay, and 329 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:56.440 the Germans knew this, and that's and that's how uh 330 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:58.359 and that's why Wicker and Verts ended up in the 331 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.759 hands of of the British and not the first. But 332 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.519 the reasoning too, in Heisenberg's mind was like, okay, like 333 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.279 if you, if you guys have the bomb, like why 334 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:09.759 why why you fixated on you know, grabbing all the 335 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.880 uranium you can and preventing it from falling into you know, 336 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:16.920 rival hands or whatever like it just but again too nobody, 337 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.839 nobody knew about the Manhattan Project other than those involved, 338 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:29.000 and you know, the uh, the the the five stars 339 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:39.160 around Truman himself, but uh. Overall the feelings of the Germans, 340 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:44.839 Irving characterized it as a sense of recrimination. They were 341 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.200 shocked by the fanaticism of people who are not under 342 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:53.160 direct like physical threat, who just developed, like rapidly develop 343 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:57.119 an atomic bomb at uh. Like in their mind, it's 344 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.920 like the kind of fanaticism that had been like a 345 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.319 sterically attrebated to them in the Japanese by the New Dealers. 346 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:05.440 You know, it's like you guys, haven't you guys have 347 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:08.359 you guys have an ocean between the people you claim 348 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.480 your enemy and you're like feverishly developing atomic bombs Like 349 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:16.640 that's there's something frankly insane about that. It. 350 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:20.920 Uh, well, let me ask Han, could they could they 351 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:25.240 really have been shocked? I mean it, how would Han 352 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:28.200 and Eisenberg? How how up would they. 353 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.920 Have been on new deal? What the new Deal was 354 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:32.519 bringing in? 355 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:38.599 What what was basically going to happen where Yeah, of 356 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:43.119 course this group of people once once uh control of 357 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:45.160 the bomb, they're megal and moniacal. 358 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.559 Because these guys are scientists, not politicians. And again too 359 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:54.279 it we're speaking of things that happened eighty years ago 360 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:59.079 and that we take for granted like it didn't you know, 361 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:02.720 and and and also I believe they thought that you know, 362 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.880 the degree to which the degree to I mean, listen 363 00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:09.519 to listen to the Hitler's December eleventh, ninety forty one speech. 364 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:15.720 You know it's people were, people were somewhat flabberg acid 365 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.640 that America was literally talking about making total war on 366 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.480 Europe for frankly ambiguous reasons, you know what I mean. 367 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:26.480 Then people didn't even there's a question as to whether 368 00:26:28.759 --> 00:26:32.880 you know, an atomic bomb would even works intended. You know, 369 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:38.319 there's a fact, there's a fact that we addressed at 370 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.400 the beginning of you know what military utility doesn't really 371 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.119 have outside of very narrow kind of strategic paradigms, other 372 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:46.440 than the fact that you can like kill a whole 373 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:53.000 lot of people immediately, you know, and America had, Germany 374 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:57.599 was in ruins, the Red Army was in Berlin. The Japanese, uh, 375 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.960 Japan's literally a pile of rubble that was getting bombed 376 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:06.799 the Stoneage every day. Like deploying uh like, like launching 377 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:10.000 a nuclear attack on like a ruined country under those conditions, 378 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:16.359 that's somewhat shocking, you know. I mean, even even if 379 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:20.119 one understands the character of the men in control of 380 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:22.240 the enterprise. So yeah, I don't think I don't I 381 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:24.880 don't think he was like feigning, putting on errors or something. 382 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:28.880 And uh, like I said, too, these are the guys 383 00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:32.319 who actually made this possible. It wasn't Oppenheimer, it wasn't Einstein, 384 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.279 you know, it wasn't in Rico Fermi. You know, it 385 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:37.839 was these guys, you know. And it's I mean, there's 386 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.720 something you know. Yeah, it's a trope that scientists are naive, 387 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:48.880 but it's also kind of true. It was certainly true here. 388 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:50.519 I mean, like I said, who are these guys faking 389 00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:55.000 it to? Like they you know they had they weren't, 390 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.039 uh and like none of these none of these guys 391 00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:58.960 were national socialist. It's not like they were going out 392 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.079 like it's not like they were playing a gearing and 393 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:03.119 saying like I got to protect the historical record and 394 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.599 you know, wrong foot my enemies. Like that didn't even 395 00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.240 feature into the equation, you know, like Heisenberg was a 396 00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:11.039 national socialist. Hahn actually like was at odds at the 397 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:13.440 regime not to do something liberal, but he just he 398 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.400 just didn't like national socialism and he didn't you know, 399 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:19.559 he was he wasn't a guy who was willing to 400 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:21.680 unlike von Braun and it was, you know, willing to 401 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.000 go along and be pragmatic. You know, these guys were, 402 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.119 you know, but von Braun was a was a was 403 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.119 basically like a you know, a mechanical engineer and like 404 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:35.880 an aviation prodigy, you know, like he wasn't. That's a 405 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.680 different Like the theoretical physics is a weird thing, and 406 00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:42.279 it's like it's it's it's it's very it's it's like 407 00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:47.279 both concrete and abstract, and it tends to it tends 408 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:51.319 to with it tends to a tract kind of you know, dreamy, 409 00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.200 hyper intellectual personalities and stuff. So no, I don't I 410 00:28:55.240 --> 00:29:00.279 don't think there's anything fake about it. But the uh 411 00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:09.440 Han Hanna described and people and and independent witnesses a 412 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:12.240 tested to this, like people had been with him when 413 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:16.920 he was first uh, when he had his first breakthroughs 414 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:23.000 in his you know, fish and research. When Han first 415 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:27.880 learned the potentiality or the implications. Rather, it wasn't clear 416 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:34.480 what the concrete potential was of uranum uranium fishing discovery. 417 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:38.440 He said that, considering that war was obviously imminent, he 418 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:45.119 contemplated uh seizing as much uranium as possible, the majority 419 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.440 of which in Europe was in Belgium, and literally throwing 420 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:51.960 it into throwing it into the sea, or otherwise hiding 421 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:57.759 it to ward off some kind of catastrophe, you know, 422 00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:02.480 resulting from a one of the combat and states attempting 423 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:07.119 to weaponize it. And then he realized that's not practicable. 424 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:12.440 And also, uh, you know, I get, but I mean, 425 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:14.839 I you know, that's that's that's that's that's the core 426 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:18.039 because the core of your question, like Han had those 427 00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:20.119 kinds of thoughts because that in his mind, that's what 428 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:24.440 any remotely kind of like morally anybody who was remotely normal, 429 00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.079 normal like moral constitution would have those kinds of thoughts 430 00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:30.240 like he wouldn't just like, you know, there's something wrong 431 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:32.519 here with the Americans and British. It's like putting up 432 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:36.279 huge factories and like feverishly like you know, producing pure 433 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.759 uranium like without without question because like you know, and 434 00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:41.880 it's like why like was was was the Red Army 435 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.559 storming across America? Was like no, I mean was with 436 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:47.960 a JIP and he's threatening America Like no, I mean, 437 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.200 like there's something there's something unseemly about it, you know, 438 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.200 and like it's not I I I I totally understand 439 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:57.480 what he's getting at or what was getting at. And 440 00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:59.960 I'm not at all some peacenick. In fact, like it's 441 00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.640 scale on these questions. I think I'm pretty callous, Okay, 442 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:15.039 at least That's what I'm told. The interestingly coursing what 443 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:19.480 he stated in the course of this conversation with his 444 00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:23.880 fellow detainees after the broadcast that you know, Hiroshima had 445 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:28.039 been destroyed. What he said and what he what he 446 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:33.640 and what he reiterated later was that the level of cooperation, 447 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:42.880 you know, under military auspices obviously that facilitated the Manhattan 448 00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:49.599 Project that would have been impossible in Germany. You know, 449 00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:52.160 he made the point. He's like, he's like, you know, 450 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:53.680 if the men in the room, he's like, some of 451 00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:56.680 us didn't wouldn't have wanted to do it on principle. 452 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.160 But uh, he's like, even if we had, you know, 453 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:02.839 there would have there would have been different ideas on 454 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:04.440 how to proceed with this, and there would have been 455 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:10.839 different ideas on you know, managing outcomes potentially you know, 456 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:13.000 and like and trying to like build in you know, 457 00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:17.359 safeguards into the into the structure itself, or you know, 458 00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:19.480 there would have been there would have been resentments from 459 00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.640 you know, taking orders from party men, you know. And 460 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.559 that's your point. Yeah, that's the subtext of what he said. 461 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.519 Of what Coursing said is that these men who worked 462 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:30.200 on that man Handing project, they were they were like 463 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.119 absolute fanatics, like they were you know, they they were 464 00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:38.400 they were frankly crazy. And that yeah, that that goes 465 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:43.839 without saying, especially if you consider the confessional background and 466 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.160 motives and things of these men in America. I mean, 467 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:55.440 but it the uh, now, what what was the background 468 00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:01.000 here of just to gonna introduce the background of what 469 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:09.640 if any understanding of the weapons potential of Hans experiments existed. 470 00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:16.160 On April twenty ninth, nineteen thirty nine. This was, uh, 471 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:19.000 this was kind of when the world became aware of 472 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:24.240 the potential of some kind of potential potentially you know, 473 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:32.839 game changing of the new physics. Hans experiments and widely 474 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:42.720 publicized obviously throughout Europe. And there's a French professor named 475 00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:49.880 Frederick jeelo or Jeloit. He was the son in law 476 00:33:49.920 --> 00:34:00.920 of Madame Curry. He reproduced Hans experiments meticulously and he 477 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:07.000 and his team they were confirmed, uh like like it 478 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:09.519 it was confirmed that like Han was you know what 479 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:11.800 what what he what he had stated to have proven 480 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:18.880 as regards, among other things, the existence in neutrons during 481 00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:22.199 the press of uranium fission and their situation like that 482 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.440 that it was it was signed off on is yes, 483 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:29.960 this is legitimate. Not a letter to Nature magazine, which 484 00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:32.119 in those days was was like a leading kind of 485 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:33.880 like it was a combination that kind of like pop 486 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:36.679 science stuff but also like major scientific discoveries that's where 487 00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:39.199 they would be featured in which it metally sounds weird 488 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:41.119 today about it. I mean that's the way things work, 489 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:53.039 you know. It's this French team led by Joeloid. Their 490 00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:56.039 letter was titled quote Liberation of Neutrons and the nuclear 491 00:34:56.079 --> 00:35:03.840 explosion of uranium and uh essentially that was sort of 492 00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:07.639 like the first kind of like public declaration of uh, 493 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:13.159 you know, nuclear fish and having like tremendous weapons potential. 494 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:18.440 But I emphasized potential. You know, there was nothing there. 495 00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:25.719 There's nothing demonishably proven here. But uh, the uh what 496 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:32.159 this led to was in the next few days and 497 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.880 uh Gottingen, which is a renowned university town, or at 498 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:42.199 least it was then in Germany at uh the Physics Colloquium. Uh, 499 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:47.119 a guy named Wilhelm hanld Hanley, who was uh he 500 00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:51.599 didn't know Han, but he was like a protege of him, because, like, 501 00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:53.239 you know, he was an up and coming physicist, you 502 00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:56.679 know everybody you know, he was kind of the he 503 00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:58.800 was kind of like the grand old man everybody looked to. 504 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:06.760 He read a short paper on, uh, what do you 505 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.880 call the uranium burning engine? I mean we was talking 506 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:14.880 about a nuclear reactor, okay, and that like little paper 507 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:19.039 by this guy. The trajectory of German atomic research was 508 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:23.599 basically going towards nuclear reactors, you know, the idea of 509 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:27.320 like or like a uranium burning engine, okay, you know, 510 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:30.639 like an endless energy source, and that frankly, that would 511 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.760 have solved what became Germany's quagmire militarily in part more 512 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:36.760 so than an atomic bomb would. And that's a really 513 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:47.039 interesting counterfactual. But that and amidst all of this kind 514 00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:52.880 of excitement, you know, it's got to be said, despite 515 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:58.320 the impression people have, I mean not just court historians, 516 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:00.880 even people who you know are are more kind of 517 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:03.960 critical and they're thinking about historical topics. There's this idea 518 00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:06.000 that the so that that that the German Reich was 519 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:08.480 some kind was almost some kind of like rightest mirror 520 00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.159 of the Soviet Union. It's not true at all, you know, 521 00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:15.719 like the National Socialist Party it was, it was it 522 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:20.039 was literally elected Hitler himself by the Enabling Act and 523 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:25.280 by various referendums. He had tremendous power. But even that 524 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:28.079 wasn't really unprecedented, you know, like the Reich president had 525 00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.119 had literally like extra constitutional authority as he saw fit. 526 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:35.320 But you know, the German state and the National Socialist 527 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:41.840 Party were discreete entities and it it. There were there 528 00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:45.079 were there was tension there like structurally, you know, and 529 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.880 there was even beyond that, even uh, it wasn't it wasn't. 530 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:53.079 It wasn't simply because there's plenty of professors who weren't 531 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:55.880 National Socialists, even the guys who were basically sympathetic, like 532 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.639 they didn't want the government messing in their affairs, you know, 533 00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:00.880 like these were not just guys who you know owed 534 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:06.679 their oh their careers and prestige, you know, something the 535 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:09.119 Berlin government had done for them, you know. And they 536 00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:10.920 also they didn't want to be ordered to work with 537 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:13.400 other people, you know, like they that they didn't feel 538 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:16.239 comfortable with or didn't you know, respect or whatever. It 539 00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:18.719 was like very provincial, kind of like very ego driven, 540 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:20.639 but also just very you know. I mean that that's 541 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.280 the nature of academ you know, and that's that's especially 542 00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:27.559 you know, especially the especially the hard sciences, and especially 543 00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.039 what was then called the new physics, which was literally 544 00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:35.599 like the cutting edge of of a scientific endeavor, you know. 545 00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:37.800 So I mean it's some it was like trying to 546 00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:41.239 herd cats, you know. This this idea that you know, 547 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:43.920 this is this idea that the Reich was like just 548 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.400 some party state is nonsense, has this idea that like 549 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.920 Germans like you know, some Prussian, some Prussian officer types 550 00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:52.960 just like snapped his fingers and then like the crowds 551 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:54.719 all like, you know, do what they're told, Like that's 552 00:38:54.760 --> 00:39:00.400 that's nonsense too. Like it was uh, you know, it's 553 00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:05.559 it's uh, it's it was. It was, uh, it was. 554 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:12.599 It was highly chaotic, you know this Uh. The subsequent 555 00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:21.159 conference that was a that that was arranged based on 556 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:24.920 all these based on all these you know kind of findings, 557 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:32.199 and confirmed them, confirmed them, and and confirmed the research. 558 00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:43.360 It ultimately was uh held in secrecy at uh at 559 00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:47.840 in in Berlin at a building on uh Winter then 560 00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:59.400 Linden the U. And this was when the War Department 561 00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:07.480 U got very interested in what was going on the 562 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:15.400 uh the War Office as well as Reich ministries attached 563 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:20.239 to it actually or or just kind of like practically 564 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.440 because they were in the same orbit or had overlapping 565 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:27.559 series of authority. In a very short space of time. 566 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:34.599 In nineteen thirty nine had begun their own uranium research program. 567 00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:40.400 It was low key. It was basically uh, you know, 568 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:45.000 corralling data that had already been produced, you know, in 569 00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:48.480 France and in the German Reich, you know, and kind 570 00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:50.840 of running a comparative analysis and trying and again like 571 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.960 duplicating some of these experiments to make sure that you know, 572 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:57.679 this was in fact the results were what they purported 573 00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:08.559 to be. And this led to UH. This led to 574 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:14.960 a Hamburg professor, Hamburg professor named Paul Hartzik and his assistant, 575 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:20.079 a guy named doctor Wilhelm Groth. They'd written a letter 576 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:25.559 to the War Office just before UH, just before the 577 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:29.400 Berlin conference and about ten days after the publication of 578 00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.199 the of the of the Paris of the French physicist 579 00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.199 letter Nature magazine. And this letter was cited again and 580 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:42.199 again and again by American new dealer media as well 581 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:46.119 as like oss types all in Sundry. The letter stated, quote, 582 00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:47.840 and this is the letter of the War Office, okay, 583 00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:54.079 by the by this Hamburg professor. It said, quote, we 584 00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:56.360 take the liberty of calling your attention to the newest 585 00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:59.480 development in nuclear physics, which, in our opinion, will probably 586 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:02.840 make it pass to produce an explosive many orders of 587 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.480 magnitude more powerful than the conventional ones. That wasn't really 588 00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:11.519 a groundbreaking statement. I mean, yeah, people speculated that that 589 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:15.400 was true, and uh, obviously what was right into this 590 00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:19.119 statement was that, uh, this is some sort of a 591 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.840 this is some sort of like uh you know, low 592 00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:28.519 key almost kind of hidden communication between German scientific academ 593 00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:31.840 and the War Office saying like, look like this is 594 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:35.840 not only possible, this is you know, essential. We've got 595 00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:38.760 to beat the allies the punch and you know, pursue 596 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:41.000 this course of research. Essentially, like take this letter of 597 00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.639 the Fear and the Army's Ministry and like, let's make 598 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:47.199 it happen. There's no evidence that that's what this letter indicated, Okay, 599 00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:48.920 And frankly, like if that's what it was, like, why 600 00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:51.480 wouldn't open a letter be written, you know, like it's 601 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:55.760 not really other things are done. But you know so 602 00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:01.079 I think some of what is argued around these these 603 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:07.360 these surviving kind of statements my sort of say surviving 604 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:09.280 I mean, you know, like a literal letter forum. I 605 00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:16.480 think some of is in bad faith. The uh you know, 606 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:24.559 and again the uh something Uh. The letter concluded with 607 00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:30.280 quote the country that makes first use of unsurpassable advantage 608 00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.679 over the others. I believe what he meant by it 609 00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:36.840 is just nuclear fission generally. And again the trajectory of 610 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:42.320 this kind of research was towards nuclear reactors, okay, or 611 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:46.639 a uranium burning engine. I believe that's what they were 612 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:49.119 getting at, and which is true, okay. I mean, any 613 00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:56.559 anybody who found a way to you know, utilize atomic 614 00:43:56.679 --> 00:44:01.719 energy for uh an inductially military purpose, like yeah, obviously 615 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:06.920 like first use compares confers a massive advantage. But I 616 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.960 don't read it as being like again some kind of 617 00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:14.960 secret agreement, you know, to pursue atomic weapons research in concert. 618 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:19.559 And I don't read that final sentences a statement to 619 00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:22.000 the effect of, you know, we have got to develop 620 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:25.119 and deploye atomic bombs as soon as possible. That's not 621 00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:27.519 in context, that's not what it means. And I'm not 622 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:33.039 playing lawyer ball at all. And frankly too, it's a 623 00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:38.519 bit outside the scope. But the course of German scientific research, 624 00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:40.960 not just relating to the new physics, but even in 625 00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:45.199 conventional engineering and other things, it makes sense that a 626 00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:49.079 nuclear reactor would kind of be the would kind of 627 00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:51.880 be the holy grail of German research, if that makes 628 00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:54.800 any sense, you know, And again that would have alleviated 629 00:44:56.239 --> 00:45:00.079 not just emergent exigencies in the Second World War, but 630 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:05.199 you know, problems that had compromised Germany's operational effectiveness and 631 00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:09.039 its ability to survive retracted wars as generally, okay, I 632 00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:12.039 mean in the preceding you know, millennia or what have you. 633 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:20.880 But that the reaction in London was especially kind of 634 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:23.920 severe to the French physicist letter, you know, the Nature 635 00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:31.960 magazine letter. The British press when they you know, just 636 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.719 like as they did subsequently when in seeing Wating mister 637 00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:40.840 Churchill into office, they undertook this like full court press 638 00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:45.719 full of lowered accounts of a new quote superbomb based 639 00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:48.119 on uranium fishing and that was being developed in Germany. 640 00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:51.480 You know, like they just presented this as a formal conclusion, 641 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:58.079 as a fact. You know. The four days after the 642 00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:06.320 letter appeared, both the British Treasury and the Foreign Office 643 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:13.119 were approached by Sir Henry Tizzard. He was chairman of 644 00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:16.760 this commit chairman of the Committee on the Scientific Survey 645 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.519 of Air Defense, which had outsized power, as did pretty 646 00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:24.199 much every everything related to the Air ministry. I think 647 00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:29.280 we talked about that in our tertial series. He said 648 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:33.800 that in uncertain terms Britain should take preemptive action to 649 00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:38.360 deny large sources of uranium to the Germans, and as 650 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:41.679 I stated, the largest stockpile of uranium in Europe was 651 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:48.519 in Belgium, and the the sizeable industry for extracting urate 652 00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:53.519 for extracting radium from uranium from uranium oars imported from 653 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:56.199 the Belgian congo as well. So like get in Belgium, 654 00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:58.159 you didn't just have you know, like the raw stores 655 00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:01.039 of uranium. It was like the infrastruct sure to you know, 656 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:08.519 process it in basic ways to make it utah. So 657 00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:15.159 essentially with Tizzard was suggesting or demanding perhaps was uh, 658 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:21.239 you know that Britain find a way to you know, 659 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:28.119 wage war on the continent and capture whatever uranium Belgium had, 660 00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:33.639 you know, with hostility, which operationally obviously there was that 661 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.599 was not going to happen. But the fact that this 662 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:39.920 was well within their contemplation, and I don't think this 663 00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:42.079 was just propaganda. In the case of the UK, I 664 00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:46.360 think they probably actually believed this. I mean, obviously their 665 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:49.760 conceptual horizon was totally corrupted by this kind of hysterical 666 00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:52.639 idea of you know, Germany as our enemy. But within 667 00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:56.639 the bound irrationality of that that paradigm, I think they 668 00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:02.199 actually did believe that uh, a fission bomb was was 669 00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:06.559 was at that moment possible. And that's kind of a 670 00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:09.880 fascinating Uh that that's kind of a there's a that's 671 00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:12.320 that's that's like it's like Frederic foresight stuff but in 672 00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.360 real life. And I think that's kind of fascinating. And 673 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:18.320 there's many many intrigues, uh really you know, like espionage 674 00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:23.199 and stuff and and what have you that like around that. 675 00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:34.039 But I uh, I'm a I'm gonna stop here, and uh, 676 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:37.119 second episode, Uh, I think we'll have to go a 677 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:40.239 little bit longer, and I want to get into the 678 00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:43.480 uh I want to get into with the actual Virus House, 679 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:46.559 which is the title of the book, which was the 680 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:52.480 dedicated research facility for the German atomic bomb, such that 681 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:54.280 it could be said to have existed as a dedicated, 682 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:57.679 dedicated program. And then in the third episode we'll deal 683 00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:02.840 with uh kind of like the aftermath and uh things 684 00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:05.920 of that nature. That sounds good. 685 00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:12.880 Are you going to address the popular conception that the 686 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:17.679 Fear was adamant about getting a bomb and that the 687 00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:19.639 scientists were working against him. 688 00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:23.639 Yeah, And I think it's basically like Heisenberg said, and 689 00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:27.559 some of his colleagues said when when he said that, 690 00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:29.679 you know, we didn't really want to develop a bomb, 691 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.719 he was talking in terms of like personal conscience, not 692 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:36.159 like the hell with Hitler unless sabotage the war efforts. 693 00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:38.800 It was that if you know, if they'd been ordered 694 00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:41.599 in it in a formal capacity, or if the or 695 00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:44.880 if the or if the atomic program had been like 696 00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:48.960 the rocket program and underdirect military authority, you know that 697 00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:53.280 they would have resisted that because you know, the unpredictability 698 00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:56.000 of outcomes and just kind of like the in their mind, 699 00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:58.800 like the naked immorality of of just unleashing that much 700 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:03.960 power U when not you know, necessary for you know, 701 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:08.679 in a matter of existential survival. I think that's uh, 702 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:10.440 I mean, that's the way to understand it. But people 703 00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:13.360 want people want to rehabilitate Heisenberg, and I mean they 704 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.360 should like, no German needs to be rehabilitated, but in 705 00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:20.079 their mind they want to think of Heisenberg and and Hans, 706 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.880 you know, good guys. So they like exaggerate the degree 707 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:27.320 to which you know, these men had some kind of 708 00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:32.519 ideological objection to finishism. But yeah, we'll get into that. 709 00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:36.719 We'll start with just like a brief understanding of what 710 00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:39.400 uranium is very much a layman, Okay, So I mean, 711 00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:42.639 like I I'm not suggesting, I'm not being panantic like 712 00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:44.599 I when I started reading about this topic, like I 713 00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:46.800 had to read up on uranium. So I will take 714 00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:49.639 like ten million minutes next episode and like learn about 715 00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:54.400 our friend uranium, and then we'll get into you know, uh, 716 00:50:55.239 --> 00:50:59.320 we'll get into the uh the views of the of 717 00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:02.920 the warm and is Re you know, contra the New 718 00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:07.519 Dealer War Department, you know, and and the kind of 719 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:12.320 lack of a convergence respectively of uh of a common 720 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:19.199 understanding of uh the military potential of atomic weapons, and 721 00:51:19.239 --> 00:51:22.119 you know, like I said, I I want to get 722 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:26.119 into like the motivations of why America developed a bomb 723 00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:30.920 and uh, you know that's a complicated topic. But yeah, 724 00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:33.280 we'll try to wrap it up in three episodes. 725 00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:35.880 All right, do plugs and we'll end this. 726 00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:41.039 Yeah. Uh. You can still find me on Twitter, which 727 00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:44.000 I guess that was X or whatever like formerly burb 728 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:48.920 app capital R E A L underscore number seven h 729 00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:52.360 M A S seven seven seven. You can always find 730 00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:56.280 me on substack, which is my primary platform. It's real 731 00:51:56.559 --> 00:52:00.400 R e a E L underscore Thomas seven seven dot 732 00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:03.039 subset dot com. You know it's find me on my 733 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:08.639 website number seven h seven seven seven dot com. I'm 734 00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:12.800 a I'm preparing season two of the Mind Phaser podcast 735 00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:17.920 and as well as uh I'm going to Utah in 736 00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:20.599 a couple of weeks to film the first dedicated episode 737 00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:23.880 of Thomas TV on the channel. My YouTube channel is 738 00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:29.480 Thomas TV number seven him As TV. So exciting things 739 00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:35.519 are afoot. In addition to like this, you know, Pete 740 00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:37.760 and Keith Woods and other fellows are nice enough to 741 00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:40.360 host me and you know, like be looking out for 742 00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:43.960 that stuff too. But yeah, that's all I got. 743 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:46.880 Thank you until the next time. 744 00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:48.119 Yeah, thank you man. 745 00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.719 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecana Show, 746 00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:58.039 Part two on what I'm calling the German Bomb series 747 00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:01.800 little mini series with Thomas. How are you doing Thomas 748 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:04.639 and where are we going today? 749 00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:11.599 I wanted to continue kind of with you know, the 750 00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.760 background of you know what the state of what was 751 00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:18.920 called the new physics was in the lead up to 752 00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:22.840 the Second World War, especially because as we touched on 753 00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:26.159 were than touchdown as we as we got into but 754 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:32.360 not completely last time. There's this idea very much reinforced 755 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:36.599 by the Oppenheimer's film, which in some ways I thought 756 00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:38.840 was a good film. In other ways I thought it 757 00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:40.519 was not a good film at all. I mean, well, 758 00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.679 we can get into that maybe when it's more appropos. 759 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:50.400 But there's this narrative that there was this kind of 760 00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.840 mad race. There's two one or two narratives. It's either 761 00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:56.840 that there was this race by all major powers to 762 00:53:56.920 --> 00:54:02.360 weaponize atomic energy and feverishly you know at Cambridge versus 763 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:05.880 of Chicago and versus Berlin, you know, presumably somewhere in 764 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:08.480 the Soviet Union. You know this was all going on, 765 00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:11.840 and you know this, this desperate race was proverbially speaking, 766 00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:14.960 was one you know, by the Manhattan Project team. That's 767 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.920 not true at all, Nothing like that was afoot. The other, 768 00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.920 the other, the other kind of narrative is that, you know, 769 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:28.320 the Einstein Memo was born of some kind of secret 770 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:33.199 knowledge Einstein presumably had, or that he had gleaned, you know, 771 00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:37.039 from the kind of German fraternity, as it were, of 772 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:40.800 of you know, researchers in the new physics that you know, 773 00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:46.119 Heisenberg presumably was, you know, had come to in the 774 00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:51.079 knowledge presumably you know, borrowing from Fermi's concrete experiments that 775 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.199 you know, uranium could be weaponized into a into a 776 00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:59.079 super bomb. So Einstein desperately, you know, contacted you know, 777 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.039 people he knew and and then close to the New 778 00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:03.760 Deal regime. You know they, you know, including people he 779 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:05.639 talked about in another series, you know, on the Board 780 00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:08.679 of Jewish Deputies, the American Jewish Committee. They put him 781 00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:11.920 in touch with Sacks. You know, uh Einstein, I said 782 00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:14.280 Rolys wall Street Man, who then said, oh my god, 783 00:55:14.320 --> 00:55:16.639 you know this is you know, there's like like some 784 00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:19.519 corny movie plot, like you know that this evil Nazi 785 00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:24.119 regime is, you know, months away from from this super weapon. 786 00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:26.719 You know, we've we've got to alert mister Roosevelt immediately. 787 00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:30.519 Like that. That's ridiculous. I mean, aside from the aside 788 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:34.119 many like value judgments they were in about the combatant regimes, 789 00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:36.719 like this was not underway at all, like we talked 790 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:42.400 about last time, literally on the Evil War in ninety 791 00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:45.719 thirty nine, the best minds in Germany. First of all, 792 00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:48.119 there was no there was no organization here like the 793 00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:53.400 War Office, which itself was kind of a hodgepodge of 794 00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:57.079 of academics, you know, like bureaucratic administrators, you know, like 795 00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:00.960 party men, like guys, you know, like military men, at 796 00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:03.920 least in a liaison capacity, you know, who had some 797 00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:07.880 idea that you know, what's there that you know that 798 00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:12.119 there's a you know, that there's some kind of applied 799 00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:16.360 potential you know, to atomic physics. But the direction they 800 00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:18.800 were going was what we consider to be, you know, 801 00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:24.159 conceptualizing what am I to a crude nuclear reactor. Okay, 802 00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:29.880 that did change somewhat as time went on, but there 803 00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:34.320 was never not only was there never uh a Third 804 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:38.760 Reich version of the Manhattan Project underway, but that wasn't 805 00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:42.440 even within anybody's contemplation, and nor nor was the kind 806 00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:45.880 of organization in place to do that, you know. I mean, 807 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:49.320 anybody will tell you when you're talking about academics, especially 808 00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:52.639 men a top of their field and in some kind 809 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:57.440 of experimental science, trying to organize these people in a 810 00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:02.719 dedicated capacity is like hurrying cats number one number two. 811 00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:07.320 You know. The Third Reich was really, uh, the Third 812 00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:10.119 Reich unlike the Soviet Union and frankly unlike the New 813 00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:13.320 Dealer United States. It was uh, it was just kind 814 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:17.239 of like competing off in hostile like fiefdoms of authority 815 00:57:17.320 --> 00:57:21.199 and these factions who really didn't like each other, who 816 00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:24.320 were kind of only bound by like faith in the fure. 817 00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:27.320 You know, like it's this kind of like messianic personage. 818 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:32.320 I don't mean that in crude terms. They're on overly 819 00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:35.440 praising terms. It's just the reality. Okay. So like people 820 00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:37.079 have this kind of mistaken idea, you know, like we 821 00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:39.079 talked about before the Third Reich is kind of like 822 00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:42.239 this like fascistoid like version of the Soviet Union, where 823 00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:44.880 like from the top down just everything was you know, 824 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:49.119 corralled into the service of the state and its military needs. 825 00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:51.000 Like that wasn't the case at all, and that that's 826 00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.960 one of the things that you know, the catalyst for 827 00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:57.280 Gerbal was total Wascond be known as the as the 828 00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.599 Total warst speech. The catalyst for that was he was 829 00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:03.760 making the case like basically like begging a lot of 830 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.280 some of the patrons of the party, like, look like, 831 00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:09.159 put us out your differences, that we have to mobilize completely, 832 00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:12.159 you know, if we're going to survive. And by that point, 833 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:14.280 I mean the die was cast, you know, so it 834 00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:20.400 but be that as it may. I'll also say, finally, 835 00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:22.719 and then we'll get into the meat of this. There's 836 00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:27.000 this idea in America, and I think, I mean even 837 00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:32.320 among historians with a critical eye, and even with some 838 00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:35.039 people who have military knowledge, I think the direct experience 839 00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:42.559 or based on their theoretical you know, endeavors, there's this 840 00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:45.280 idea that nuclear weapons there's kind of like this trump card, 841 00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:48.679 you know, or that you know, like Thomas Schelling said, 842 00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:51.360 and in the Conducts he said it was correct that 843 00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:54.960 they're just like any other weapons, except owing to command 844 00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:59.320 and control nuances, you know, in the computerization and decision 845 00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:04.800 making a key junctures, and the destructive power of them. 846 00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.719 You know, they they're just capable of implementing far far 847 00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:15.199 more attrition, far far quicker than you know, conventional weapons. 848 00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:17.480 And that is the correct way to think about them 849 00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:24.119 in conditions of bipolarity, as regards the political map in 850 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:28.239 general parody in terms of strategic forces, and being in 851 00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:32.480 a military situation such as the world of nineteen thirty 852 00:59:32.559 --> 00:59:36.079 nine or even of nineteen forty three forty four, it's 853 00:59:36.119 --> 00:59:38.679 not clear how an atomic bomb would have helped Germany. 854 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:44.239 I mean, Germany could have annihilated the UK, and I mean, yeah, 855 00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:48.119 that would have helped I mean in terms of obviously 856 00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:51.239 it could no longer be utilized as you know, US 857 00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:55.239 Army Air Corps and Royal Air Forces on singable aircraft 858 00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:59.400 carrier from which to you know, strategically bomb Germany with 859 01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:03.239 and conventional loads. But you know, the path of victory 860 01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:05.760 in World War Two for Germany is the conquest of 861 01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:08.039 the Soviet Union. You know, Moscow has to fall in 862 01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:14.599 ninety forty one, and thereby, you know, Germany becomes a superpower. 863 01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:18.440 You know, it captures the Central Asian world island. If 864 01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:23.440 you want to use mckinder's language, okay, just you know, 865 01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:29.559 atomic bombing Moscow and killing you know, ten million Russians. Well, 866 01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:31.679 I mean the third right killed ten million Russians. I 867 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:34.239 mean that did that win the war? You know, like 868 01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:38.679 I I think it was uh Ac mcdeina Jodd. It 869 01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:40.760 was an interesting guy at least more I mean, he 870 01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:44.360 was at least the most interesting Iranian ahead of state 871 01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:49.760 since Komani. You know, he made the point when kind 872 01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:52.599 of Ntnya, who was at his most kind of historyonic. 873 01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:54.800 You know, it is freaking that everybody's developing a bomb. 874 01:00:54.880 --> 01:00:58.079 You know, all Israel's enemies are developing the bomb. You know, 875 01:00:58.119 --> 01:01:02.239 it's like did the did nuclear weapons helped the Soviet Union? 876 01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:05.000 You know, like when the Soviet Union went down not 877 01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:09.000 with a bang, with a whimper. I think it had uh. 878 01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:16.079 I think it had something like twelve thousand warheads you 879 01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:19.679 know that could be married uh launch vehicles and deployed 880 01:01:19.719 --> 01:01:24.320 you know, as like strategically you know, like intercontinentally you know, 881 01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:27.920 or at least like within theater, you know, over intermediate distance. 882 01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:30.519 I mean that there's like this idea like nuclear weapons 883 01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:33.639 just you know, you like own you own your enemy, 884 01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:36.559 like in and for verbial or actual terms, you just 885 01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:38.880 own the battle space like that. That that that doesn't 886 01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:43.119 make any sense, you know, in the case of America obviously, 887 01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:46.599 I mean America just had to devastate Germany and Japan, 888 01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:49.599 you know, and it could and then and then America 889 01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:51.800 gets the planet, you know, but I mean no nobody 890 01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:57.760 else was in that situation. You know, ironically, in a 891 01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:02.360 totally counterfactual scenario, there like a nuclear armed Japan like 892 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:06.519 that actually, like Japan could have extorted a lot of 893 01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:11.440 concessions if they had nuclear atomic bombs or something comparable. 894 01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:15.480 I've thought about that and not I think not incidentally, 895 01:02:15.559 --> 01:02:19.239 that's why they were so fixated on a biological weapons program, 896 01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.000 you know. And like the father of modern bio warfare 897 01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:27.360 is shiro Ishi. And he got poached immediately by US 898 01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:32.920 occupation forces and delivered the the War Department, soon to 899 01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.320 be the Defense Department. They ended up actually teaching at 900 01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:38.280 Berkeley of all places, you know, as as like in 901 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:40.440 this kind of role of civilian roles like this in 902 01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:44.559 old age is like this unassuming like biologists. But he 903 01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:47.800 he was a he was a he was he was 904 01:02:47.800 --> 01:02:51.880 a war master of bioweapons. Okay, that's something of a tangent. 905 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:57.119 But another event. All these things are important. They're not 906 01:02:57.400 --> 01:03:06.440 They're not just speculative you know, uh sort of counterfactionals 907 01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:10.400 that are fun to play with as we uh, I 908 01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:15.400 think we finished last time with the letter. The letter 909 01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:20.320 by the French physicists to Nature magazine, you know, was 910 01:03:20.360 --> 01:03:24.320 discussed the potential of of of you know, somein some 911 01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:29.199 kind of military application of of uranium, you know, and 912 01:03:29.480 --> 01:03:37.880 reactions from uranium if you know, the the isotope needed 913 01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:42.719 could be you know, cultivated. Okay, and this this really 914 01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:44.880 this caused it say, it caused a stir in the 915 01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:49.239 scientific community. Would be a gross understatement. But the response 916 01:03:51.159 --> 01:03:56.719 essentially by the Germans was h a guy named Abraham Isau. 917 01:03:56.880 --> 01:03:59.320 He was chairman of the quote Reich Bureau of Standards. 918 01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:01.800 What translates the right group the right grou of standards 919 01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:07.000 in education, specifically the physical sciences, was it's, you know, 920 01:04:07.119 --> 01:04:10.800 a domain of authority and kind of keeping you know, 921 01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:17.320 such that the universities could be corralled into a directly 922 01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:22.360 military role. It was, you know this, this was this 923 01:04:22.519 --> 01:04:24.119 was kind of like this, this is kind of like 924 01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:28.440 the party's way of uh of, uh of not just 925 01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:30.440 keeping tabs on these things, but trying but you know, 926 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:32.760 if we're trying to direct such potential as it he 927 01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:36.159 emerged in a constructive capacity. But of course, again we're 928 01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:40.199 talking about you know, literally cutting edge theoretical physics here. 929 01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:42.360 Like you can't pick and choose like who you want 930 01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:44.840 to stay aff these things. You need people actually understand 931 01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:47.679 the damn thing in question. You need and beyond the 932 01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:50.519 people are competent. It's like he wasn't any kind of 933 01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:54.239 like national socialist or party man, but he was basically patriotic. 934 01:04:56.239 --> 01:05:00.119 He uh, he'd been uh, he've been a leading a 935 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:05.239 already on high frequency electronics. He'd been an academic physicist 936 01:05:05.519 --> 01:05:08.559 for most of his career, but he was politically active. Again. 937 01:05:08.599 --> 01:05:11.760 He wasn't he wasn't any kind of like party loyalist, 938 01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:15.199 but he had followed kind of the sentence of nationalism 939 01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:17.079 in Germany and he was like definitely behind it, you 940 01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:19.199 at least in like a but but frankly, I mean 941 01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:24.920 like patriarch Germany's generally work, you know, but he uh, 942 01:05:25.320 --> 01:05:28.519 he was excited at you know, kind of nuclear physics 943 01:05:28.599 --> 01:05:30.719 being brought within his you know, kind of a number 944 01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:34.880 of authority fund lay that way, and he convened a 945 01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:39.039 conference I think we mentioned the GENA conference, which was 946 01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:44.039 directly convened in response, you know, to the UH announcement 947 01:05:44.119 --> 01:05:51.280 by the by the French researchers UH on their applied 948 01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:56.519 UH experiments on a short lasted course was you know, 949 01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:59.719 ada Han Hahn was unable to attend because he was 950 01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:07.119 engaged otherwise in Sweden. Professor a guy named Professor Joseph 951 01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:14.519 Mattok from Vienna, UH was uh was was deputized in 952 01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:19.519 favor of his you know, regular assistant Lisa Meitner, who 953 01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:21.639 is also in Sweden, you know, with the man himself 954 01:06:21.719 --> 01:06:23.639 to like to speak for him, remember like sit in 955 01:06:23.679 --> 01:06:29.360 for him. The conference took place in you know, relative 956 01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:32.719 se Receive April twenty ninth, nineteen thirty nine, at the 957 01:06:32.760 --> 01:06:38.840 Ministry of Education building. As we talked about the uh 958 01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:44.480 doctor uh doctor doms who's the head of the Ministry's 959 01:06:44.519 --> 01:06:51.480 research department, he vocally attagged Hahn in absentia for publishing, 960 01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:54.480 you know, his vital discovery. What he perceived is like 961 01:06:54.519 --> 01:06:57.480 his vital discovery, you know, to the scientific to the 962 01:06:57.519 --> 01:07:01.559 wider sign offic community. And that's not the way science works, okay, 963 01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:04.280 unless you're I mean, if head had just been two 964 01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:09.480 years later, you know, and had Germany been UH actively 965 01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:12.000 at war, I think that case could be made. But 966 01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:16.440 even then, again, this was not the mainhadant project. Nobody, 967 01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:25.920 nobody had, nobody among this coterie of new physicists in 968 01:07:26.119 --> 01:07:30.960 UH in Germany or Austria, you know, had an idea 969 01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:33.880 that you know, this is a military technology. I mean 970 01:07:33.920 --> 01:07:40.039 beyond the fact that excuse me, I'm sorry, beyond the 971 01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:43.920 fact that you know any kind of any kind of 972 01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:47.119 apply technology where you're talking about a truly renewable energy 973 01:07:47.159 --> 01:07:54.039 source that theoretically, at least you know is is essentially inexhaustible. 974 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:57.079 I mean, yeah, obviously his military implications of that, just 975 01:07:57.079 --> 01:07:59.880 say the military implications and everything else. But that's but 976 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:02.920 that was that that that would have been like saying 977 01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:05.599 you know that you know that would that would have 978 01:08:05.599 --> 01:08:07.760 been like saying that, you know, aviation something should have 979 01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:10.679 been kept secret, you know, as it was under as 980 01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:14.159 you know, as as trials underway in America to you know, 981 01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:18.960 perfect the truly viable aircraft, but American elsewhere. But the 982 01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:23.000 uh but uh, Matt talk took up. Uh he went 983 01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:26.319 to bed very much on Hans's behalf, and he uh 984 01:08:26.520 --> 01:08:29.640 he basically cowed the committee into silence. You know things, 985 01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:33.239 we're not We're not a military, this is not a military. 986 01:08:33.239 --> 01:08:36.760 This is not neither a party nor a military you 987 01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:38.720 know conference, you know, we're not We're not under your 988 01:08:38.720 --> 01:08:41.439 authority or anybody else's. You know, basically like, how dare 989 01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:44.119 you insult the man who's you know, basically changed the 990 01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:47.800 world by his research and discoveries. And that honestly set 991 01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:51.359 the tenor man like not not just in the Genda conference, 992 01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:57.039 but moving onward again like it something like it described 993 01:08:57.079 --> 01:08:59.319 never could have happened in the Soviet Union, Like no 994 01:08:59.319 --> 01:09:03.119 matter what no matter what the technology under discussion was, 995 01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:08.279 even if it was a purely speculative technology at that 996 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:10.760 at that juncture, you know, so it's there is there 997 01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:14.279 is more of a you know, I say this is important, 998 01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:18.079 not just because I've got you know, peculiar fixations as 999 01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:21.640 a as a researcher, but you know, it's it's it's 1000 01:09:21.680 --> 01:09:28.079 important to you know, developing a a properly characteristic view 1001 01:09:28.119 --> 01:09:31.640 of the German Reich and and its internal situation. You know, 1002 01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:33.880 this is not a place where scientists or cowed by 1003 01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:36.039 the party or by the regime. You know, there certainly 1004 01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:39.000 were as always representative official doom. We try to throw 1005 01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:41.000 their weight around, but they were not in the driver's 1006 01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:45.479 se here at all for a lot of reasons. The 1007 01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:51.680 uh basically the long story short in addition to a 1008 01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:57.239 lot of the theoretical postulates unrelated directly, you know, to 1009 01:09:57.279 --> 01:09:59.640 the subject at hand, which I'm no understanding of because 1010 01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:02.760 I'm not physicists at all. I'm not even like an 1011 01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:06.520 educated leaman in physics. Okay, and first admit that, but 1012 01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:12.560 to uh, they kind of highlight of the event if 1013 01:10:12.560 --> 01:10:16.159 you want to look at those terms. To Gottingen professors, UH, 1014 01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:20.199 got injuiced, and it got even Honley. They they they 1015 01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:22.800 outlined once again, I mean not them once again, but 1016 01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:25.680 they'd outlined again as was on the mind of every 1017 01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:30.359 man present, you know, ah, the practicability of of of 1018 01:10:30.399 --> 01:10:33.560 a quote uranium burner. Okay, I mean this was again, 1019 01:10:33.640 --> 01:10:36.119 this was such that there could be said to be 1020 01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:41.199 uh a sort of priority afforded any conceptual model. I 1021 01:10:41.199 --> 01:10:44.159 mean this, this was it okay, And again that that 1022 01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:50.119 obviously has tremendous military application. But it but not in 1023 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:58.680 the way that was being bandied by you know, uh people, uh, 1024 01:10:59.079 --> 01:11:03.560 people like Einstein later on, and and also by some 1025 01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:08.560 uh some uh some people, particularly in m I six 1026 01:11:09.840 --> 01:11:12.760 and uh later on oss in the case the former 1027 01:11:12.920 --> 01:11:15.720 I it's interesting and we'll get into that the uh 1028 01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:21.680 the I don't want to jump people ahead. We'll get 1029 01:11:21.720 --> 01:11:23.960 into the kind of the take from London or the 1030 01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:27.279 view from London and the potentiality of an atomic bomb. 1031 01:11:27.279 --> 01:11:34.279 But and in the event, the h there's been a 1032 01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:38.720 general band placed uh on the export of uranium compounds 1033 01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:50.399 from Germany, and uh the right Ministry of Economics was 1034 01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:57.239 uh they were adjusting, uh well, they they were They're 1035 01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:00.680 trying to determine like there was a recently capture minds 1036 01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:08.279 in Czechoslovakia. I cannot pronounce uh yakima jakumal if anybody 1037 01:12:08.279 --> 01:12:10.680 on deck, like in the comments, I'm sorry if I'm 1038 01:12:10.680 --> 01:12:18.159 butchering that, i first admit I I'm terrible with these pronunciations. 1039 01:12:18.199 --> 01:12:23.279 But Central Europe is uh is rich in in uh 1040 01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:31.920 in uranium war, okay, like natural uranium war. The uh 1041 01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:34.920 this this hadn't been mined yet, but it, you know, 1042 01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:38.800 had been accessed in some basic capacity. But you know, 1043 01:12:39.319 --> 01:12:42.880 uh who basically who is going to get get it first? 1044 01:12:43.039 --> 01:12:46.039 Like hadn't been decided? You know? Was it just gonna 1045 01:12:46.039 --> 01:12:49.399 be spirreled away and given to the you know, given 1046 01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:51.399 to the O k W to basically sit on so 1047 01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:54.479 nobody else could have it? You know? Was it? Was 1048 01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:58.760 it gonna be given to you know this uh to 1049 01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:01.439 what what? What would was basically gonna be given it? 1050 01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:04.359 Like you know the the Burgening kind of committee, that 1051 01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:08.720 uh Burgning kind of quorum that attended the conference at Jenna, 1052 01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:13.520 Like what what would become of it? But it uh 1053 01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:17.119 what they had allowed was a uranium sample had had 1054 01:13:17.199 --> 01:13:22.680 been dispatched to Gotha gen for special analysis. And the 1055 01:13:23.159 --> 01:13:28.920 special analyst uh who was uh dispatched you know to 1056 01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:34.520 essentially to to report his findings was was was a 1057 01:13:34.520 --> 01:13:38.479 guy from the War Office, Okay, and what was not 1058 01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:41.279 known to the attendees of the GENA conference and was 1059 01:13:41.319 --> 01:13:46.079 not probably known to really anybody the right chancery. I'm 1060 01:13:46.079 --> 01:13:48.960 sure that there was some line of communication there and 1061 01:13:49.439 --> 01:13:53.279 Hitler himself, I speculate, and again this is pure speculation, 1062 01:13:53.560 --> 01:13:56.920 probably knew just because he was so hands on in 1063 01:13:57.199 --> 01:14:02.640 terms of UH weapons development and things like that. The 1064 01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:09.720 War Office had begun its own uranium research program. But again, 1065 01:14:10.520 --> 01:14:13.960 you know, it's if they were developing a bomb, and 1066 01:14:14.000 --> 01:14:16.600 if this was like the Raizon detra Avid, you know, 1067 01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:21.760 like why why why why why why were they appealing 1068 01:14:21.800 --> 01:14:24.319 to civilians at all? You know, I mean it because 1069 01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:27.560 that would presume the knowledge that that would presume not 1070 01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:32.000 just the the conceptual basis for such a program, but 1071 01:14:32.119 --> 01:14:34.600 the knowledge in order to implement it, as well as 1072 01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:39.239 the political will. And it's just not you know, it depics. 1073 01:14:39.479 --> 01:14:43.960 What develops here is I think an dis futal picture 1074 01:14:44.800 --> 01:14:50.680 of you know, basically everybody, uh, everybody within the party 1075 01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:57.159 administration who had understanding, you know, who's realistic about you know, 1076 01:14:57.239 --> 01:15:00.159 the fact that you know, inevitably like a war is 1077 01:15:00.159 --> 01:15:02.560 going to emerge between you know, the Third Reich and 1078 01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:06.359 the Soviet Union. Anybody in the scientemic community you know, 1079 01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:08.880 who was at all engaged you know, with the reality 1080 01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:13.319 in national politics at the time, and anybody who uh 1081 01:15:13.920 --> 01:15:17.600 you know had uh had been paying attention, you know 1082 01:15:17.720 --> 01:15:20.239 to to the new physics with any with any sort 1083 01:15:20.279 --> 01:15:22.319 of understanding of it beyond that of a layman, like 1084 01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:24.720 understood that there was some kind of like great applied 1085 01:15:24.760 --> 01:15:27.640 potential for this, but that might not be emergent for 1086 01:15:27.680 --> 01:15:31.720 twenty years. You know, it might you know, it might 1087 01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:34.399 never be fully realized. But again too like it wasn't 1088 01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:37.079 clear what that was, and such that there was any 1089 01:15:37.159 --> 01:15:39.439 kind of like agreement in these like very kind of 1090 01:15:39.479 --> 01:15:44.119 crude conceptual terms. In Germany, it was as you know, 1091 01:15:44.319 --> 01:15:46.319 it was basically as like this is an energy source. 1092 01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:48.319 That's one who changed the world, you know, It was 1093 01:15:48.359 --> 01:15:50.680 not like this is this is how we built super bombs, 1094 01:15:51.439 --> 01:16:04.560 you know. And interestingly, but uh, such that the United 1095 01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:11.680 Kingdom had a view of this. After the chairman of 1096 01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:19.439 a Belgian mining concern he uh he got wind of 1097 01:16:19.720 --> 01:16:30.119 the situation in Czechoslovakia with respect to uranium. A a 1098 01:16:30.159 --> 01:16:35.880 guy named m Edgar c Ga. He was president of 1099 01:16:35.920 --> 01:16:39.920 the Belgian Mining consider and a union miniere. Okay, I 1100 01:16:39.960 --> 01:16:45.439 think that's how you pronounced it. He contacted, uh, a 1101 01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:48.199 guy named Tizard who was chairman of the Committee and 1102 01:16:48.239 --> 01:16:53.079 the Scientific Survey of Air Defense in London, Okay. And 1103 01:16:53.159 --> 01:16:57.399 when he did, uh, the outcome of their meeting was basically, 1104 01:16:57.560 --> 01:17:01.199 Tizard he was unwilling to he was willing to provide 1105 01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:06.760 the funds or the authority for Sindiire Sindiata to to 1106 01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:11.359 purchase all available uranium stocks, which there were several thousand 1107 01:17:11.479 --> 01:17:16.279 tons in Belgium and far more available in the open 1108 01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:21.359 market that it had been extricated from Czechoslovakia or extracted 1109 01:17:21.439 --> 01:17:26.119 you know, before the before the before the country fell 1110 01:17:26.159 --> 01:17:29.920 apart and uh, you know what have you when and 1111 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:36.920 became came under the dominion of the Reich. But you 1112 01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:42.000 know it, Uh, the fact was, I mean it this 1113 01:17:42.119 --> 01:17:46.640 was not it was the UK was very much by 1114 01:17:46.640 --> 01:17:51.800 this point, this was May of nineteen thirty nine, you know, 1115 01:17:51.840 --> 01:17:54.720 they were shifting to a war footing, you know, I mean, 1116 01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:56.840 it can't be argued that this was you know, oh, 1117 01:17:56.880 --> 01:18:00.720 you know, the climate of appeasement was ruling, and nobody 1118 01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:04.520 you know realized you know, the danger that lay ahead. 1119 01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:07.640 If you want to take that kind of court historian's view, 1120 01:18:07.720 --> 01:18:13.199 I mean that that they can't be argued. Okay, the 1121 01:18:13.199 --> 01:18:20.079 the uh what Tizard did say is that, uh, if 1122 01:18:20.520 --> 01:18:26.600 some kind of mass of UH uranium reserves or at 1123 01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:28.720 least that which was then available in the open market, 1124 01:18:29.720 --> 01:18:32.760 if the bulk of that should fall into enemy hands. 1125 01:18:32.800 --> 01:18:36.880 He said that maybe something that you know, that that 1126 01:18:36.960 --> 01:18:40.039 could be catastrophic and strategic terms. But I mean it 1127 01:18:40.039 --> 01:18:42.439 wasn't it wasn't clear what they was. You know. It's 1128 01:18:42.479 --> 01:18:45.439 like it was basically that, you know, we hear that, 1129 01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:47.640 you know, the crowds want it, so we don't want 1130 01:18:47.680 --> 01:18:49.439 you know, because they wanted We want them to not 1131 01:18:49.560 --> 01:18:51.359 have it, you know, but we don't want it either 1132 01:18:51.479 --> 01:18:57.680 because it may be nothing. You know. The uh, the 1133 01:18:57.800 --> 01:19:01.720 Admiral basically just are like took this to the annualty, 1134 01:19:02.359 --> 01:19:05.680 which you know in in the UK. Then as I 1135 01:19:05.720 --> 01:19:09.760 assume now even I always said always had outsized clout 1136 01:19:09.920 --> 01:19:15.600 in terms of like war and peace questions, they said that, 1137 01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:20.920 you know, they said that, uh, you know, not only 1138 01:19:20.960 --> 01:19:23.279 to went out of the funds they gamble with on 1139 01:19:23.319 --> 01:19:27.600 this like literally but they said the possibility of developing 1140 01:19:27.640 --> 01:19:31.079 a quote explosive of unprecedented power from uranium was so 1141 01:19:31.239 --> 01:19:34.159 remote as to be negligible. So again this was like 1142 01:19:34.199 --> 01:19:37.439 science fiction. Okay, it kind of reminds me of if 1143 01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:39.439 you keep up with I don't know if anybody does, 1144 01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:42.159 but I and maybe they've moved on from this kind 1145 01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:45.279 of fixation. But like some years back, you know, if 1146 01:19:45.279 --> 01:19:48.039 you picked up parameters, you know, like the USM ME 1147 01:19:48.119 --> 01:19:51.760 War College magazine or read these uh speaking of the bridge, right, 1148 01:19:52.039 --> 01:19:54.479 some of these like Royal Navy publications they was talking 1149 01:19:54.479 --> 01:19:56.520 about like rail guns and these kind of like super 1150 01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:59.960 guns that we're gonna that were were primarily gonna be 1151 01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:03.960 based on you know, Uh, there's basically gonna be like 1152 01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:07.239 there's some kind of new like quasi surface warfare platform 1153 01:20:07.359 --> 01:20:08.960 that's just going to like change everything. You know. It 1154 01:20:09.039 --> 01:20:12.720 was a lot of uh, I mean that is now 1155 01:20:12.880 --> 01:20:14.600 like I mean now it's more you know, guys kind 1156 01:20:14.600 --> 01:20:18.119 of trying to rationalize already bloated budgets and stuff. But 1157 01:20:18.159 --> 01:20:22.119 there's there's always there's always there's always uh, there's always 1158 01:20:22.159 --> 01:20:25.199 generals and admirables, as well as civilian analysts and intelligence men, 1159 01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:28.720 you know, like like sounding alarm bells about about some 1160 01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:30.800 future you know, like super weapon. You know, this was 1161 01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:35.239 not like this was not something new, Okay, yeah, I 1162 01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:38.039 mean they the twentieth century is remarkable in terms of 1163 01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:43.800 the punctuated the punctuated equilibrium as so to speak of 1164 01:20:44.439 --> 01:20:47.039 you know, scientific advancement by by leaps and bounds. But 1165 01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:50.960 this this idea that you know, there was there's a 1166 01:20:51.000 --> 01:20:55.920 firm understanding of the potential of uranium that and that 1167 01:20:56.439 --> 01:21:00.560 you know this somehow would you know as we make 1168 01:21:00.680 --> 01:21:03.920 you know, Germany, it's strategic situation as it was in 1169 01:21:04.239 --> 01:21:06.000 thirty nine, you know, the master of the world. Like 1170 01:21:06.039 --> 01:21:12.479 that's that's ridiculous. G. P. Thompson had an interesting take. 1171 01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:17.399 Uh he was, he was. He was a leading British physicist, 1172 01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:22.960 perhaps perhaps the leading physicist who was close to uh 1173 01:21:24.399 --> 01:21:26.359 you know, the like not just the War Party as 1174 01:21:26.680 --> 01:21:32.199 it were, but to uh, you know, military circles and 1175 01:21:32.319 --> 01:21:38.079 uh both intelligence and the admiralty. He said, uh, you know, 1176 01:21:38.119 --> 01:21:41.439 it's highly he said, he said, the Germans are probably 1177 01:21:42.199 --> 01:21:49.239 more afraid of US developing some uranian based technology. You 1178 01:21:49.279 --> 01:21:51.920 know is is than than we are of them. And 1179 01:21:52.079 --> 01:21:57.960 uh he suggested, he suggested a dis info campaign indicating 1180 01:21:58.039 --> 01:22:00.800 that the British had in fact tested uranium bombs of 1181 01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:04.720 unprecedented force, you know, so potent that the authorities in 1182 01:22:05.800 --> 01:22:10.199 you know stopped uh stopped testing of them for fear 1183 01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:15.960 of of compromising the uh compromising the uh the program completely, 1184 01:22:16.720 --> 01:22:27.960 you know it. Uh. Churchill himself he said that, and 1185 01:22:28.039 --> 01:22:31.159 he talked of am I do like church was like 1186 01:22:31.199 --> 01:22:32.840 something of a technology. I mean, on the one hand, 1187 01:22:32.880 --> 01:22:36.920 he's like pans a ladite me, which he was and 1188 01:22:37.039 --> 01:22:39.319 he and he he he he was a disaster as 1189 01:22:39.319 --> 01:22:42.000 a as as a commander in chief, but he did 1190 01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:45.439 have like a fetish for like wartech, you know, albet 1191 01:22:45.479 --> 01:22:49.239 not in an informed way, but his view was the same. 1192 01:22:49.319 --> 01:22:51.039 He said that, like any any German, talk of a 1193 01:22:51.119 --> 01:22:55.840 quote superbomb is pure bluff, you know. Uh. He's like, 1194 01:22:55.880 --> 01:22:58.640 you know this is ridiculous, Like nothing like this. There's 1195 01:22:58.640 --> 01:23:00.880 there's no indicators, there's no kind of reindicators that something 1196 01:23:00.920 --> 01:23:04.399 like this is going to be deployed, you know. And 1197 01:23:04.520 --> 01:23:09.279 he said, even if it was you know, the the 1198 01:23:09.479 --> 01:23:12.119 uh you know that both the Admiralty and the Air 1199 01:23:12.199 --> 01:23:16.119 Ministry as well as the army. You know, their their 1200 01:23:16.199 --> 01:23:19.279 view is that, you know, even if such an application 1201 01:23:19.640 --> 01:23:23.000 have been cultivated, it would you know, anything that would 1202 01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:25.279 lead to results on a large scale would not be 1203 01:23:25.359 --> 01:23:28.279 emergent for years, you know. And this was Churchill talking. 1204 01:23:28.319 --> 01:23:30.880 You know, this is like ours warmont or ChIL you know, so, 1205 01:23:30.920 --> 01:23:35.960 I mean it's uh the uh he asked question. 1206 01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:42.960 Yeah, yeah, could that the line of, you know, we've 1207 01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:51.079 been testing these plutonium based weapons and it's remarkable what 1208 01:23:51.239 --> 01:23:53.319 the kind of power they have. Could that be a 1209 01:23:53.319 --> 01:23:57.239 way of propagandizing and saying, we know what these things 1210 01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:02.319 can do, we can't allow the enemy to have them. 1211 01:24:02.439 --> 01:24:05.119 Yeah. I think that that's where I think that. I 1212 01:24:05.159 --> 01:24:08.479 think that I think the people who were agitating for 1213 01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.319 that disinvo campaign, I think that was the subtext of 1214 01:24:11.359 --> 01:24:15.560 it too. You know. It wasn't just to you know, 1215 01:24:15.640 --> 01:24:20.000 kind of like bluff the Germans, because frankly, the UK 1216 01:24:20.159 --> 01:24:23.720 did not really have the forces and being to bluff 1217 01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:27.560 in other ways other than Ledgard Maine. But yeah, also 1218 01:24:27.640 --> 01:24:29.840 I think it could have it could have served yeah, 1219 01:24:29.880 --> 01:24:31.760 exactly what you said. It could have served as you know, 1220 01:24:32.640 --> 01:24:36.079 an ongoing pretext as well, you know, like these kinds 1221 01:24:36.119 --> 01:24:38.399 of things are being developed in and enemy hands. Oh 1222 01:24:38.439 --> 01:24:40.560 my god, like basically became you know, kind of like 1223 01:24:40.600 --> 01:24:44.079 the the Lbit. It was, it was, it was, it 1224 01:24:44.119 --> 01:24:46.560 was top secret. But what became, you know, like the 1225 01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:50.920 the New Dealer rationale for the Manhattan Project. But it's 1226 01:24:51.039 --> 01:24:52.880 but again, I mean the reason it didn't is because 1227 01:24:52.880 --> 01:24:55.920 it's seeming, it like, just so outlandish. And again, these weren't. 1228 01:24:56.199 --> 01:24:58.359 These weren't a bunch of you know, these weren't a 1229 01:24:58.359 --> 01:25:00.520 bunch of World War One generals. I go, and I 1230 01:25:00.520 --> 01:25:02.800 don't know about this. You know, this this this high 1231 01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:05.439 fluting science like you know, these were like these were 1232 01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:07.600 guys at the top of the field, you know in 1233 01:25:07.600 --> 01:25:10.359 the UK, you know, in the nineteen thirties. I mean 1234 01:25:10.359 --> 01:25:13.760 to say that like they they didn't you know, have 1235 01:25:14.159 --> 01:25:21.039 an indigenous you know, uh, academic community that was very 1236 01:25:21.119 --> 01:25:25.199 much on the cusp of new physics research. I mean 1237 01:25:25.199 --> 01:25:27.279 that it is preposterous. It just didn't seem it just 1238 01:25:27.319 --> 01:25:30.640 it just wasn't. It wasn't what people were thinking. Okay, 1239 01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:33.720 And I mean, yeah, okay, anytime you're talking about anytime 1240 01:25:33.760 --> 01:25:37.600 you're talking about anytime you're talking about a rare element. Okay, 1241 01:25:38.119 --> 01:25:40.479 obviously like explosives, something comes to mind. This is like 1242 01:25:40.479 --> 01:25:45.760 the nature of it, But that wasn't This was not 1243 01:25:45.800 --> 01:25:48.079 something that was just a universe. Like the way it's 1244 01:25:48.079 --> 01:25:50.119 presented is that there's just something that was like universally 1245 01:25:50.159 --> 01:25:53.159 understood to be like you know, the potential of a 1246 01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:57.880 you know, of a of uranium, and it was only 1247 01:25:57.920 --> 01:26:02.000 a matter of time before you know, the the correct 1248 01:26:02.039 --> 01:26:05.760 formula as it were, was calculated in order to like 1249 01:26:05.800 --> 01:26:10.720 bring it into reality, you know, And that's uh, you know, 1250 01:26:10.800 --> 01:26:15.479 all we can the closest we can get to literally 1251 01:26:15.479 --> 01:26:20.239 peeking inside the minds of people in the epoch is 1252 01:26:20.520 --> 01:26:25.039 you know there you know, their their declarations, either their 1253 01:26:25.439 --> 01:26:27.319 either you know there were there there's you know there 1254 01:26:27.560 --> 01:26:32.079 either their private diaries and their correspondences or you know, 1255 01:26:32.159 --> 01:26:37.119 their their public declarations or their statements. The presence of witnesses, 1256 01:26:37.159 --> 01:26:42.239 and there's not any there's not any indication that you know, 1257 01:26:42.319 --> 01:26:46.079 anybody within the scientific or military community in Europe as 1258 01:26:46.079 --> 01:26:50.960 of nineteen thirty nine, you know, had this in within 1259 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:54.960 their contemplation. And again part of this was part of 1260 01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:58.079 this was uh, you know, part of this was a 1261 01:26:58.079 --> 01:27:02.079 conceptual bias because again, like it if you're if you're 1262 01:27:03.159 --> 01:27:08.239 if you're a Felt marshal in the Wehrmacht, or you know, 1263 01:27:08.279 --> 01:27:11.479 if you're a British admiral of the Royal Navy, Like 1264 01:27:11.520 --> 01:27:14.920 why what what's what's an atomic bomb gonna do for you? You know, 1265 01:27:14.960 --> 01:27:17.600 like what like honestly, like how how is that gonna solve? 1266 01:27:18.920 --> 01:27:21.960 You know, the the exigencies that you're charged with resolving? 1267 01:27:22.239 --> 01:27:26.199 You know, I mean it's Germany, Germany becomes a superpower 1268 01:27:26.239 --> 01:27:32.439 and and and and resolves. Uh, it's uh and and 1269 01:27:32.560 --> 01:27:36.319 resolves like the long emergency. It's it's faced with if 1270 01:27:36.319 --> 01:27:38.439 it if it, if it can drop atomic bombs on people. 1271 01:27:38.520 --> 01:27:41.079 I mean, it's not you know again it it's there's 1272 01:27:41.119 --> 01:27:47.920 a very there's very there's a very peculiar strategic configuration 1273 01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:52.640 where where nuclear weapons have real utility and that basically 1274 01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:58.000 never emerges, and you know it certainly it certainly wasn't 1275 01:27:58.039 --> 01:28:01.279 emergent in the case of Germany in nineteen thirty nine, 1276 01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:05.319 you know, And people can argue that point. I like want, 1277 01:28:05.439 --> 01:28:08.279 but I don't I get to come across a convincing 1278 01:28:08.439 --> 01:28:15.159 case otherwise, even in even in uh, even in the 1279 01:28:15.159 --> 01:28:27.560 abstract and more concrete terms, relying on H relying on 1280 01:28:27.600 --> 01:28:34.600 the direct UH advice and claims of a professor F. A. 1281 01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:43.319 Lindemann and later Lord Cherwell. Churchill wrote to the Secretary 1282 01:28:43.359 --> 01:28:47.680 of State for UH for Air Defense, for air and 1283 01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:54.479 Air Defense saying that you know, any suggestion of of UH, 1284 01:28:54.960 --> 01:29:01.279 of quoting Nazi super weapons were without foundation. He said, 1285 01:29:01.439 --> 01:29:05.000 only uh, you know, as is expert, namely Lindham and 1286 01:29:05.199 --> 01:29:09.319 had told him, UH, only a minor constituent of uranium 1287 01:29:09.319 --> 01:29:12.319 was effective, which which which you know was took which 1288 01:29:12.399 --> 01:29:16.439 took quote many years to extract. You know, the chain 1289 01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:20.399 process can take place only I've concentrated in a large mass. 1290 01:29:20.880 --> 01:29:25.159 You know, the as soon as the energy develops, you know, uh, 1291 01:29:25.399 --> 01:29:28.640 it's you know likely that you know, it would acquire 1292 01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:31.800 a mild detonation instead of a chain reaction which presumably 1293 01:29:31.840 --> 01:29:34.159 you know, would would would would incerate you know, like 1294 01:29:34.199 --> 01:29:36.520 the uranium core that was needed in the first place. 1295 01:29:36.600 --> 01:29:39.840 And you know or you know, based on this based 1296 01:29:39.880 --> 01:29:42.800 on the nature of these things and you know, unknown variables. 1297 01:29:43.199 --> 01:29:46.520 You know, if an adequate mass were cultivated, you know, 1298 01:29:47.159 --> 01:29:49.039 the chain reaction could ensue that you know, it was 1299 01:29:49.239 --> 01:29:52.520 just massively destructive. You know and uh, in ways we 1300 01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:55.880 can't even conceptualize you know, all the basic uh not 1301 01:29:55.880 --> 01:29:58.000 that bassic in terms of uninformed because this was a 1302 01:29:58.000 --> 01:30:01.079 new science, but all the kind of all all the 1303 01:30:01.159 --> 01:30:04.159 kind of you know, usual objections of the time to 1304 01:30:04.920 --> 01:30:08.399 you know, why you know, we don't this is you know, 1305 01:30:08.399 --> 01:30:10.000 we don't want to we don't want to tickle the 1306 01:30:10.039 --> 01:30:14.079 dragon's tail as it were, you know. And this was 1307 01:30:14.199 --> 01:30:17.359 Churchill himself, like relying on his experts, you know. And 1308 01:30:17.399 --> 01:30:21.479 it's again like what if anything he had, he had 1309 01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:25.760 an incentive to you know, confabulate you know, some kind 1310 01:30:25.800 --> 01:30:29.079 of threat where there wasn't one, not not diminish a 1311 01:30:29.119 --> 01:30:32.680 threat where you know where it was. I mean obviously 1312 01:30:33.680 --> 01:30:43.439 it's but that uh and just uh for those who 1313 01:30:43.479 --> 01:30:45.880 don't know a lot about this, and I mean I'm 1314 01:30:45.920 --> 01:30:49.760 one of them, so I'm not being pedantic, Like what 1315 01:30:49.880 --> 01:30:54.960 is uranium and why uranium? Again, uranium is what was 1316 01:30:55.000 --> 01:31:02.239 available central Europe is uh one of the uh natural 1317 01:31:03.159 --> 01:31:08.399 you know deposits of uranium that can be uh harvested 1318 01:31:08.439 --> 01:31:14.399 and or extracted, mind and you know utilized in weapons development. Obviously, 1319 01:31:14.479 --> 01:31:18.800 uranium is a chemical element. Uh what is a chemical element? 1320 01:31:18.880 --> 01:31:21.560 It's an irreducible substance that cannot be broken down into 1321 01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:26.239 other substances. It's symbol is you. Its atomic number is 1322 01:31:26.319 --> 01:31:31.439 ninety two UH. In solid form, it's a silvery gray 1323 01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:37.159 metal it UH. Uranium atom is ninety two protons and 1324 01:31:37.239 --> 01:31:42.039 ninety two electrons, of which six are valanced electrons. UH. 1325 01:31:42.800 --> 01:31:48.319 Uranium radioactively decays by emitting alpha radiation. And the halflight 1326 01:31:48.399 --> 01:31:52.600 of this is it's between something like two hundred thousand 1327 01:31:52.680 --> 01:31:55.560 and like four point five billion years sort of isotopes, 1328 01:31:55.840 --> 01:31:59.640 so like uranium like this is this was like revolutionary 1329 01:31:59.720 --> 01:32:02.600 medium like date the Earth like quite literally, I did 1330 01:32:02.640 --> 01:32:07.399 not know that until recently. But the most common isotopes 1331 01:32:07.399 --> 01:32:12.960 in natural uranium is uranium two thirty eight and uranium 1332 01:32:13.039 --> 01:32:18.039 two thirty five. Okay, And uranium incidentally is the highest 1333 01:32:18.039 --> 01:32:24.439 atomic weight of the primordially occurring element primordially occurring elements. 1334 01:32:24.680 --> 01:32:28.159 Now why uranium two thirty five uranium two thirty five 1335 01:32:30.720 --> 01:32:39.239 is uh, it's uh. It's in every in every every 1336 01:32:39.279 --> 01:32:43.000 thousand parts about in every thousand parts of natural uranium, 1337 01:32:43.239 --> 01:32:45.720 there's about seven parts called lighter isotope, which is the 1338 01:32:45.760 --> 01:32:49.880 mass number two thirty five. The chemical properties are the 1339 01:32:49.960 --> 01:32:56.600 same obviously, but the physical properties differ uranium thre thirty five. Essentially, 1340 01:32:57.600 --> 01:33:05.319 it's gotta be the uh, the atomic structure of it's 1341 01:33:05.319 --> 01:33:07.880 got to be manipulated in a way so that, in 1342 01:33:08.079 --> 01:33:13.560 very crude terms, it does not absorb, uh, what it 1343 01:33:13.640 --> 01:33:16.520 is being bombarded with, you know, like the the reaction 1344 01:33:16.600 --> 01:33:21.600 has to actually be cultivated, okay, and this can only 1345 01:33:21.640 --> 01:33:24.560 be achieved with the uranium three thirty five isotope. Okay. 1346 01:33:27.199 --> 01:33:34.960 The uh. Such that Professor Esau had any idea the 1347 01:33:35.119 --> 01:33:38.800 urnum tw thirty five was like something was like special 1348 01:33:39.119 --> 01:33:42.199 that it, you know, it was distinguishable in terms of 1349 01:33:42.239 --> 01:33:51.039 its potential for you know, applied applied utility, you know, 1350 01:33:51.079 --> 01:33:56.199 like military or otherwise. He if he knew, if he 1351 01:33:56.239 --> 01:33:58.479 had a deeper understanding than his colleagues of why, he 1352 01:33:58.600 --> 01:34:02.720 didn't disclose that, but he did say that at once, 1353 01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:04.960 we should secure all of the oble uranium stocks in 1354 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:08.159 Germany and we should cultivate uranium two thirty five where 1355 01:34:08.159 --> 01:34:12.239 we find it. He said that it joints research group 1356 01:34:12.359 --> 01:34:15.479 over his administration, but representing you know, like all interested 1357 01:34:15.560 --> 01:34:21.359 factions you know, party, state, military, you know. Uh. And 1358 01:34:21.359 --> 01:34:24.680 this was you know, people kind of like shrug this off, like, well, 1359 01:34:24.760 --> 01:34:29.119 that's other asyl like trying to you know, insinuate himself 1360 01:34:29.119 --> 01:34:32.880 into some kind of you know, hancho role, I mean, 1361 01:34:32.920 --> 01:34:35.840 which within with under under the under the German Reich, 1362 01:34:35.920 --> 01:34:37.760 especially you know in the pre war years that was 1363 01:34:37.800 --> 01:34:41.560 not uncommon. But or they kind of viewed him as 1364 01:34:41.640 --> 01:34:46.319 just you know, another scientists kind of you know, being hysterical. 1365 01:34:47.800 --> 01:34:49.720 And for most of the people present at the at 1366 01:34:49.720 --> 01:34:53.439 the Gene conference and these subsequent sort of meetings of 1367 01:34:53.479 --> 01:34:57.279 this coterie that had had you know that was involved 1368 01:34:57.279 --> 01:34:59.960 in the uh you know, or that there that was 1369 01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:04.399 know within this kind of core of people from the 1370 01:35:04.560 --> 01:35:08.319 Department of Educational Standards as well as the War Office. 1371 01:35:08.840 --> 01:35:11.800 You know that nobody had heard about uranium or uranium 1372 01:35:11.800 --> 01:35:17.319 research until until the war broke out. You know, as 1373 01:35:17.319 --> 01:35:23.079 it happened. When the war did break out, there was 1374 01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:26.239 a you know, there was the there was there was 1375 01:35:26.279 --> 01:35:29.640 the there was the nominally civilian research team that we 1376 01:35:29.760 --> 01:35:33.520 just mentioned that the War Office had kind of secretly 1377 01:35:33.960 --> 01:35:35.960 you know organized, and like I said, like I I 1378 01:35:36.039 --> 01:35:38.000 believe there's a direct line from them to the chance 1379 01:35:38.000 --> 01:35:41.520 for Adolf Hitler, although I can't prove that, but uh, 1380 01:35:41.800 --> 01:35:45.359 there were actually two teams in total working on relatedly 1381 01:35:45.399 --> 01:35:47.960 small scale uranium research, like on the day World War 1382 01:35:48.000 --> 01:35:53.159 two broke out. Okay, at doctor Kurt Diebner, who's the 1383 01:35:53.319 --> 01:35:59.319 who's the here the armies expert on nuclear physics of 1384 01:35:59.359 --> 01:36:07.840 these uh the uh the the the Deepner's was sam 1385 01:36:07.840 --> 01:36:13.279 honestly dismantled the very day after Brendan, France declared one 1386 01:36:13.279 --> 01:36:18.159 in Germany PROSESL somehow to hear an interview with General Becker, 1387 01:36:19.520 --> 01:36:24.800 who's the chief of Army Ordnance. He obtained a promise 1388 01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:31.199 of full War Office support and full and exclusive support 1389 01:36:31.560 --> 01:36:35.439 for his uh for his you know, for his team's 1390 01:36:35.439 --> 01:36:38.920 research endeavors that the expensed that Deepeners. Now, some people 1391 01:36:38.960 --> 01:36:40.960 will speculate it's kind of like the dog that didn't 1392 01:36:41.039 --> 01:36:44.279 bark in evidentiary terms, like well, how do you pull 1393 01:36:44.319 --> 01:36:47.079 this off? Especially considering he was a civilian and Deepner 1394 01:36:47.199 --> 01:36:50.159 was insinuated into the army establishment. He must have he 1395 01:36:50.239 --> 01:36:53.079 must have promised some kind of results. I don't think that. 1396 01:36:53.119 --> 01:36:55.640 I don't I don't see that as possible because I mean, 1397 01:36:56.279 --> 01:37:00.279 you know, Becker, among other things, you know, he get 1398 01:37:00.319 --> 01:37:04.119 to that position without under having a basic understanding of 1399 01:37:04.119 --> 01:37:06.800 of of of you know, of chemistry at least, you know, 1400 01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:11.560 I mean it was You're not talking about some man 1401 01:37:11.560 --> 01:37:15.840 in the street as relates to applied science, you know, 1402 01:37:15.880 --> 01:37:20.119 even something that was then as kind of theoretically uh 1403 01:37:20.399 --> 01:37:27.880 abstract or you know, unknown, as as as atomic physics. 1404 01:37:27.880 --> 01:37:31.800 But I I don't, you know, I don't. I don't 1405 01:37:31.840 --> 01:37:34.000 see what E could have produced either in order to 1406 01:37:34.119 --> 01:37:37.119 kind of like in consider or in consideration of that 1407 01:37:37.800 --> 01:37:44.800 guarantee that supposedly would have been made that Deebner couldn't have. 1408 01:37:47.119 --> 01:37:50.199 I speculated just comes down to Becker having more confidence 1409 01:37:50.239 --> 01:37:52.359 in one man over the other. But again, who knows. 1410 01:37:52.960 --> 01:37:54.560 I think all of this is kind of much to 1411 01:37:54.560 --> 01:37:57.119 do about nothing, because the point I think the key 1412 01:37:57.159 --> 01:37:59.800 takeaway is that this was not viewed as a priority, 1413 01:38:00.279 --> 01:38:02.760 you know, not that it was uh you know, I 1414 01:38:03.279 --> 01:38:06.439 I think probably improved terms. Becker didn't really give a shit, 1415 01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:09.680 you know. I mean he Germany was now at war 1416 01:38:09.720 --> 01:38:13.760 with Britain and France, you know, and his priority was, 1417 01:38:13.880 --> 01:38:15.800 you know, doing what he had to to win that war. 1418 01:38:16.279 --> 01:38:18.279 You know, like what one agghead is bringing to the 1419 01:38:18.279 --> 01:38:21.159 table versus another one. Well, he makes the better argument, 1420 01:38:21.319 --> 01:38:23.840 he gets the you know, he gets the he gets 1421 01:38:23.880 --> 01:38:27.279 the shudder, you know. I mean that's these things often are. 1422 01:38:27.359 --> 01:38:30.039 And like I said, I mean the speculation is basically 1423 01:38:30.119 --> 01:38:32.319 people filling in the gaps with what they want to 1424 01:38:32.319 --> 01:38:36.560 to substantiate a narrative that's you know, not this not 1425 01:38:37.119 --> 01:38:39.359 uh substantiated by the record, you know. I mean, so 1426 01:38:39.399 --> 01:38:47.159 that's species. Anyway, what Becker did agree to, what Esta 1427 01:38:47.279 --> 01:38:49.279 did come away with, aside from like a promise of 1428 01:38:49.359 --> 01:38:54.079 you know, kind of funding and support, uh, was an 1429 01:38:54.079 --> 01:38:57.720 official voucher certifying the military importance of the projects for 1430 01:38:57.720 --> 01:38:59.960 the war efforts. But I mean, like all kinds of 1431 01:39:00.159 --> 01:39:02.920 all kinds of things we're kind of given that proverbial stand, 1432 01:39:03.520 --> 01:39:05.680 especially later on and kind of more liberally by the 1433 01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:08.359 s s believe or not I mean anything and against 1434 01:39:08.359 --> 01:39:10.760 the sas basically whatever you're given him or like any 1435 01:39:10.840 --> 01:39:13.119 kind of signific merit, you know, whether it was you know, 1436 01:39:13.279 --> 01:39:16.960 like uh, you know if id you know, transforming like 1437 01:39:17.000 --> 01:39:19.720 you know, corny to jet fu wooler and I mean silly, 1438 01:39:19.800 --> 01:39:21.640 but you know what I mean, like it, I don't 1439 01:39:22.239 --> 01:39:25.000 like the fact that the fact that I was able 1440 01:39:25.039 --> 01:39:29.119 to the that he was able to get you know, 1441 01:39:29.239 --> 01:39:33.600 like the chief Army ordinance, you know, to to sign 1442 01:39:33.640 --> 01:39:35.840 off on his research. I mean that basically means he 1443 01:39:35.920 --> 01:39:37.800 was competent. Then like whatever he came up with, like 1444 01:39:37.880 --> 01:39:40.479 probably would you know, be utile, and whether it was 1445 01:39:40.600 --> 01:39:41.960 or not, you know, like whatever he came up with 1446 01:39:42.000 --> 01:39:44.880 belong to the army, you know, not not to not 1447 01:39:44.960 --> 01:39:48.399 to not to any you know, private sector or university patron. 1448 01:39:48.760 --> 01:39:57.840 So that's oh, that's that's kind of the foundation of Uh, 1449 01:39:58.239 --> 01:40:00.600 that's kind of the foundation of you know, like leading 1450 01:40:00.640 --> 01:40:03.680 into the war, like what what the state of uh, 1451 01:40:04.479 --> 01:40:10.439 you know, atomic research was. Of course ultimately like during 1452 01:40:10.479 --> 01:40:14.359 the war the title uh, mister Irvings book the Virus House, 1453 01:40:14.560 --> 01:40:19.439 I mean that was the heavy water facility that was 1454 01:40:19.479 --> 01:40:27.319 dedicated to you know, that was dedicated to you know, 1455 01:40:27.399 --> 01:40:33.279 cultivating uranium two thirty five. So I mean there's something there. Yeah, 1456 01:40:33.640 --> 01:40:36.920 and uh, I hope not boring everybody to death. I'll 1457 01:40:36.920 --> 01:40:38.880 try to wrap this up in the next episode, but 1458 01:40:39.800 --> 01:40:42.520 it but yeah, that's I don't want to I don't 1459 01:40:42.520 --> 01:40:44.079 want to get into that now because then we'd be 1460 01:40:44.079 --> 01:40:49.000 talking for the next hour. But yeah, that's uh, that's 1461 01:40:49.119 --> 01:40:53.760 uh basically the the foundation and you know, like I said, 1462 01:40:53.760 --> 01:40:55.640 I think it's the reason why I wanted to cover 1463 01:40:55.720 --> 01:40:57.560 this now was I think it's timely gonna ground to 1464 01:40:57.600 --> 01:40:59.319 the ab and Iron movie, which in a lot of 1465 01:40:59.359 --> 01:41:01.600 ways is not a bad film. I suppose you were Hollywood, 1466 01:41:01.640 --> 01:41:04.520 and like some people, I believe chritsrah Nolan was kind 1467 01:41:04.520 --> 01:41:08.359 of surreptigially signaling the political things. I mean, that's a 1468 01:41:08.439 --> 01:41:13.000 subject for another stream. But I thought it was timely. Man. 1469 01:41:13.039 --> 01:41:16.640 I hope people are. I mean, it's it's essential understanding 1470 01:41:16.720 --> 01:41:19.880 the total picture of the conflict. So I hope people 1471 01:41:19.880 --> 01:41:25.119 are getting something out of it. The Feedbackcine's good so far. 1472 01:41:25.920 --> 01:41:26.560 Yeah, I think the. 1473 01:41:29.039 --> 01:41:31.479 Yeah, I think the very first time we ever talked, 1474 01:41:31.520 --> 01:41:36.319 we talked about the spelling and changing narratives, and. 1475 01:41:36.039 --> 01:41:39.319 You know, the narrative of this is. 1476 01:41:41.039 --> 01:41:46.560 Wrong. The narrative that people believe of the German bomb 1477 01:41:46.600 --> 01:41:51.119 program is wrong. So I don't see how anybody can 1478 01:41:52.439 --> 01:41:54.840 if one of the goals, if one of the goals 1479 01:41:54.960 --> 01:42:01.279 is to open people's eyes to World War two and 1480 01:42:01.359 --> 01:42:04.720 exactly what it was, I think there's no more important, 1481 01:42:05.079 --> 01:42:12.479 there's no more important, uh subject than a potential you 1482 01:42:12.479 --> 01:42:16.399 know bomb that you know they oh, he would. 1483 01:42:16.199 --> 01:42:21.399 Have just dropped everywhere. No, I mean and and people too, 1484 01:42:21.439 --> 01:42:23.439 Like I said, the important you know, I spent a 1485 01:42:23.439 --> 01:42:27.479 lot of time with game theory and like formal logic. 1486 01:42:27.520 --> 01:42:30.319 I mean it's like my background like educationally, but also 1487 01:42:30.359 --> 01:42:35.680 it uh, you know, the Cold War was so I 1488 01:42:35.680 --> 01:42:38.560 mean nuclear weapon Like the Cold War can only understood 1489 01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:41.880 within the context of the nuclear paradigm, you know, like 1490 01:42:41.960 --> 01:42:45.600 it was just it literally defined every aspect of it, 1491 01:42:45.720 --> 01:42:50.600 like military, political, philosophical, Like people can't get their minds 1492 01:42:50.640 --> 01:42:53.359 around really the idea that you know, in a different 1493 01:42:53.359 --> 01:42:58.960 strategic paradigm, let alone one in the twentieth century that 1494 01:42:59.119 --> 01:43:02.159 you know, nuclear weapons could have not been you know, 1495 01:43:02.199 --> 01:43:04.680 the kind of trump card the or like the key 1496 01:43:04.760 --> 01:43:08.840 to victory that obviated you know, all like lesser killing 1497 01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:11.760 technologies you know, and like I cannonize that enough. It's 1498 01:43:11.760 --> 01:43:15.319 like again like even people, I'm not any people have 1499 01:43:15.399 --> 01:43:18.199 got their own conceptual prejudices one or the other about 1500 01:43:18.199 --> 01:43:20.159 the Third Reich, Like it's not put that out of 1501 01:43:20.159 --> 01:43:24.720 your mind totally. Think it's really strategic terms about irrationality 1502 01:43:24.840 --> 01:43:27.319 of what Berlin had to accomplish in order to realize 1503 01:43:27.319 --> 01:43:29.279 its war aims and win the war. Like again, how 1504 01:43:29.279 --> 01:43:32.239 would an atomic bomb facilitate that. I mean, on the 1505 01:43:32.239 --> 01:43:36.239 one hand, like, yeah, it's better always to have like 1506 01:43:36.279 --> 01:43:41.159 potential firepower on hand. That's devastating, But it's not, okay, 1507 01:43:41.279 --> 01:43:47.000 I mean it's it's you know, it's not. Uh, it's 1508 01:43:47.039 --> 01:43:50.479 it's not like like the utility of these weapons is 1509 01:43:50.520 --> 01:43:55.520 not there's not a spectrum, a wide spectrum utility to them, 1510 01:43:55.880 --> 01:44:00.520 you know it. And I think people forget that, you know, 1511 01:44:00.560 --> 01:44:04.680 even people who are basically informed about things and you know, 1512 01:44:04.760 --> 01:44:09.600 conceptually literate. But yeah, all right, I'm rambling. Man, I won't, 1513 01:44:09.680 --> 01:44:12.880 I won't. I won't keep you any longer. But thanks 1514 01:44:12.920 --> 01:44:15.239 so much for hosting me. Man, I owe you a 1515 01:44:15.279 --> 01:44:18.880 lot with friends, and I appreciate being able to cover 1516 01:44:18.920 --> 01:44:22.239 these things. But I really really appreciate the chance to 1517 01:44:22.359 --> 01:44:24.920 appear on your program. Like believe that. 1518 01:44:25.359 --> 01:44:27.800 I'm very always You're always welcome. All you have to 1519 01:44:27.800 --> 01:44:29.359 do is contact me with the subject. 1520 01:44:29.359 --> 01:44:30.439 Then you know, we'll do it. 1521 01:44:30.479 --> 01:44:33.399 But before we do that, hit up some plugs and 1522 01:44:33.560 --> 01:44:34.800 uh we'll get out of here. 1523 01:44:35.159 --> 01:44:40.520 Yeah, legit. I'm always on substack and in September, I'll 1524 01:44:40.520 --> 01:44:43.880 be dropping season two of the podcast. In the interim, 1525 01:44:44.159 --> 01:44:46.720 I'll keep dropping like one off content that you can 1526 01:44:46.800 --> 01:44:50.039 listen to, like the Neco Cloud interview and other stuff. 1527 01:44:50.640 --> 01:44:55.279 I promise, But in September, season two will drop, and 1528 01:44:55.520 --> 01:44:59.319 when it does, all all all other content, all other 1529 01:44:59.640 --> 01:45:05.600 podcas As content will be free. It's real Thomas seven 1530 01:45:05.680 --> 01:45:09.560 seven seven dot subsect dot com. Uh. You can find 1531 01:45:09.600 --> 01:45:13.479 me on the app formally known as Twitter. It's real 1532 01:45:14.159 --> 01:45:18.319 R capital R E A L underscore number seven h 1533 01:45:18.359 --> 01:45:23.640 O M A S seven seven seven. I'm on Telegram. 1534 01:45:23.760 --> 01:45:26.640 It's at Thomas Graham number seven h O M A 1535 01:45:26.680 --> 01:45:32.520 S seven seven seven Graham. Or no, it's Thomas. Yeah, no, 1536 01:45:32.680 --> 01:45:35.479 it's that's right. That's right. I'm not going c isle. 1537 01:45:35.520 --> 01:45:41.640 I'm just tired. And that's uh. The YouTube channel, there's 1538 01:45:41.680 --> 01:45:45.279 nothing there yet except a couple one off things, you know, 1539 01:45:45.359 --> 01:45:47.880 like an intro and you know, some stuff that I've 1540 01:45:47.880 --> 01:45:52.359 recorded with friends, like my dear friend Carrie. On my 1541 01:45:52.479 --> 01:45:59.880 YouTube channel, it's Thomas t V. That's uh. When I 1542 01:45:59.920 --> 01:46:01.319 go to Utah in a couple of weeks, it's to 1543 01:46:01.359 --> 01:46:04.760 begin shooting dedicated content for Thomas TV. So I'm excited 1544 01:46:04.760 --> 01:46:08.359 about that. You know, we're doing a lot more with 1545 01:46:08.439 --> 01:46:12.319 the brand, not just like sexing up the production values, 1546 01:46:12.880 --> 01:46:16.000 which I owe to my dear friend Rake and his team, 1547 01:46:16.119 --> 01:46:17.720 like literally, like I could not do any of this 1548 01:46:17.800 --> 01:46:19.479 stuff without them. They're the guys who do all like 1549 01:46:19.479 --> 01:46:22.640 the editing and stuff and make things like presentable, like legit. 1550 01:46:22.680 --> 01:46:25.399 I'd be if it was just me, Like i'd be 1551 01:46:25.479 --> 01:46:27.760 like some like a hobo, like looking like he was 1552 01:46:27.800 --> 01:46:30.520 on Public Access and like nineteen eighty or something like, 1553 01:46:30.920 --> 01:46:33.479 I'd be like something from like yeah, it'd be like 1554 01:46:33.520 --> 01:46:36.680 something from like Public Access and like some alternate dimension 1555 01:46:36.760 --> 01:46:42.439 of shit. But uh, some keep that in mind that 1556 01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:48.000 they're the guys who really are owed props for anything 1557 01:46:48.039 --> 01:46:51.720 I'd do in this regard. But yeah, that's about where 1558 01:46:51.720 --> 01:46:54.960 we're at. I uh, I'm hoping to be able to 1559 01:46:55.039 --> 01:47:03.840 drop steel Storm three my early spring, Nuremberg by summer, 1560 01:47:04.159 --> 01:47:05.840 and that's all I got for right. 1561 01:47:05.760 --> 01:47:10.359 Now until part three. Thank you, Thomas, Yeah, thank you. 1562 01:47:12.119 --> 01:47:14.880 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana Show. 1563 01:47:15.960 --> 01:47:19.119 I'm here with Thomas. How are you doing, Thomas, I'm 1564 01:47:19.119 --> 01:47:19.880 doing very well. 1565 01:47:20.039 --> 01:47:23.760 Thanks for hosting me again. I hope, I hope people 1566 01:47:23.800 --> 01:47:26.600 have been getting something out of this series. You know, 1567 01:47:26.680 --> 01:47:32.039 I'm I'm a I'm a historical writer and I know 1568 01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:37.039 something about political theory, in the law and in formal logic, 1569 01:47:37.079 --> 01:47:40.520 but I'm not I'm not a scientist at all. I'm 1570 01:47:40.520 --> 01:47:43.000 not even like a layman who you know is is 1571 01:47:43.159 --> 01:47:46.399 just highly competent in science or something. So I hope 1572 01:47:46.399 --> 01:47:48.720 I'm not embarrassing myself in the way I explain some 1573 01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:52.279 of these things. But I've gotten feedback, Like a friend 1574 01:47:52.279 --> 01:47:54.840 of ours who's a German dude who also has a 1575 01:47:54.840 --> 01:47:56.800 degree in physics, like told me that, Like He's like, yeah, 1576 01:47:56.800 --> 01:47:58.520 if I'm proud of you for like not totally fucking 1577 01:47:58.520 --> 01:48:03.119 this up. That made me feel kind of good. Like 1578 01:48:03.640 --> 01:48:06.039 our German friends as well as like our physicist friends 1579 01:48:06.159 --> 01:48:11.359 generally don't pull any punches in that regard. So but today, 1580 01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:13.760 I mean, there's just a lot here. Okay, I mean, 1581 01:48:14.720 --> 01:48:19.600 but I think, well, maybe go one more episode just 1582 01:48:19.680 --> 01:48:22.800 as a you know, after this one. It's kind of 1583 01:48:22.800 --> 01:48:28.399 a bookend, and maybe field questions. But I'll explain what 1584 01:48:28.479 --> 01:48:33.920 I mean with the statement I'm about to issue forth 1585 01:48:35.359 --> 01:48:37.520 as we get into the meat of today's episode. But 1586 01:48:38.239 --> 01:48:41.439 you know, the German the German atomic bomb program such 1587 01:48:41.479 --> 01:48:43.439 that it such that there could even be said to 1588 01:48:43.520 --> 01:48:47.359 be one that existed it was basically strangling Utero when 1589 01:48:47.399 --> 01:48:49.520 when the Vermacht was like stopping his tracks at the 1590 01:48:49.600 --> 01:48:52.199 gates of Moscow. Okay, I'll get into what I mean 1591 01:48:52.239 --> 01:48:59.359 by that as we move along. Okay, If nothing else, 1592 01:48:59.439 --> 01:49:03.800 you know, military exigencies and and and the long emergency 1593 01:49:03.880 --> 01:49:06.760 of of a of a long war, a prolonged war 1594 01:49:06.920 --> 01:49:11.840 which Germany cannot afford to wage, may rendered any any 1595 01:49:11.920 --> 01:49:16.600 kind of German version of Manhattan Project, you know, not feasible, 1596 01:49:16.720 --> 01:49:21.560 even if it was strategically sound as regards you know, 1597 01:49:21.720 --> 01:49:25.239 its impetus, you know what, it would it even resolve 1598 01:49:26.199 --> 01:49:32.319 Germany's military quagmire emergent military quagmire. But there's a lot 1599 01:49:32.720 --> 01:49:37.039 in between, you know, nineteen thirty nine and December nineteen 1600 01:49:37.039 --> 01:49:42.239 forty one. They still needs to be addressed. And the 1601 01:49:42.279 --> 01:49:47.039 person at Heisenberg features very prominently here. Okay, for those 1602 01:49:47.079 --> 01:49:50.760 who know, Heisenberg was not an experimental physicist. He was 1603 01:49:50.760 --> 01:49:54.520 a very much a theoretical physicist and frankly something of 1604 01:49:54.560 --> 01:50:00.359 a philosopher with theological interests. You know, he was not 1605 01:50:01.840 --> 01:50:04.560 he was not really the counterpart to Oppenheimer or something, 1606 01:50:05.000 --> 01:50:06.239 you know, And I say that like in the most 1607 01:50:06.239 --> 01:50:08.800 praising terms I think a guy like both Gang Smith 1608 01:50:08.920 --> 01:50:12.880 is kind of very much a descendant, the spiritual descendant 1609 01:50:13.640 --> 01:50:17.680 of Heisenberg. So the fact that Heisenberg came to be, 1610 01:50:18.399 --> 01:50:23.800 you know what kind of helm, the virus house research 1611 01:50:24.199 --> 01:50:27.439 and all attendant projects. I mean that tells you something too, 1612 01:50:27.640 --> 01:50:31.039 you know. I mean it's some and I'll expand upon 1613 01:50:31.119 --> 01:50:38.199 that with discrete facts and testimony, but that's something you 1614 01:50:38.399 --> 01:50:40.199 need to keep in mind. You know. It's just there's 1615 01:50:40.239 --> 01:50:45.720 a lot of connecting the peribial dots and the absence 1616 01:50:46.039 --> 01:50:50.960 of direct testimony or concrete evidence to point to in 1617 01:50:51.079 --> 01:50:54.039 order to you know, paint a picture of what this 1618 01:50:55.159 --> 01:50:58.560 of what this endeavor was, and you know what gave 1619 01:50:58.680 --> 01:51:04.399 rise to it and how it was not what was claimed, 1620 01:51:04.720 --> 01:51:06.920 but you know to what degree? To what? To what 1621 01:51:07.000 --> 01:51:10.680 degree it was? Uh, the people who claimed the German 1622 01:51:10.760 --> 01:51:13.960 atomic bond program was was was well underway and a 1623 01:51:14.000 --> 01:51:19.039 dedicated capacity. The degree to which that was propaganda deliberately 1624 01:51:19.079 --> 01:51:26.239 cultivated by interested parties contra. You know, people actually believing 1625 01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:28.079 this was the case owing to the not just the 1626 01:51:28.119 --> 01:51:30.760 fog of war, but you know, the kind of opaque 1627 01:51:30.840 --> 01:51:33.439 nature of of what was then you know, the new science, 1628 01:51:34.239 --> 01:51:36.920 you know and and everything else. It's hard to say. 1629 01:51:37.119 --> 01:51:38.880 I think it depends on who we were talking about. 1630 01:51:39.239 --> 01:51:42.319 But we'll get into that too, particularly the views of 1631 01:51:42.359 --> 01:51:47.960 people like Stimson versus you know, those in you know, 1632 01:51:48.239 --> 01:51:49.960 I mean Stimpson was an outlier in the Deep New 1633 01:51:49.960 --> 01:51:52.399 Deal administration anyway, but you know, he the view of 1634 01:51:52.479 --> 01:52:00.319 him versus you know people, uh who who people in 1635 01:52:00.359 --> 01:52:06.520 the administration who are most receptive to Einstein and Sax's claim. 1636 01:52:06.720 --> 01:52:08.640 I mean, there's a there was a there's a difference 1637 01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:15.000 in inconceptual horizon there. But I want to get into 1638 01:52:16.880 --> 01:52:20.119 we left off last time with the April twenty ninth, 1639 01:52:21.399 --> 01:52:24.119 I mean thirty nine conference, and as as we as 1640 01:52:24.119 --> 01:52:29.119 we got into, uh the focus of that discussion really 1641 01:52:29.319 --> 01:52:33.479 was the feasibility of a of a quote uranium engine, 1642 01:52:33.640 --> 01:52:38.600 you know, like we said such that these such such 1643 01:52:38.600 --> 01:52:44.439 that these discussions among this coterie that the War Office 1644 01:52:44.479 --> 01:52:48.760 had corralled had had it had a focus, and later 1645 01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:55.039 like such that there such that their experimental activities, you know, 1646 01:52:55.119 --> 01:52:59.439 had a discrete focus. It It was it was really 1647 01:52:59.479 --> 01:53:03.319 towards well we conceptually what we'd consider a nuclear reactor, 1648 01:53:03.840 --> 01:53:09.560 and that becomes relevant, that becomes independently relevant as a 1649 01:53:09.560 --> 01:53:13.399 as time went on, we really relating to the weaponization 1650 01:53:13.520 --> 01:53:17.760 of of of of uranium two thirty five as we'll see. 1651 01:53:17.960 --> 01:53:26.239 But a few days prior, a guy named Neils Borr, 1652 01:53:27.279 --> 01:53:29.680 who was a Dane, but he was in some way 1653 01:53:29.760 --> 01:53:32.479 he had like an outsized impact on German physics, okay, 1654 01:53:32.520 --> 01:53:34.600 and he was very much like a mentor of Heisenberg 1655 01:53:34.600 --> 01:53:41.239 among other among other luminaries. He and uh a guy 1656 01:53:41.319 --> 01:53:44.600 named J. E. Wheeler, they published the American Physical Review, 1657 01:53:45.319 --> 01:53:47.600 which was read pretty much by everybody in the Western 1658 01:53:47.640 --> 01:53:51.319 world who's it all involved in physics. Even throughout the war, 1659 01:53:51.640 --> 01:53:58.880 you know, this endured it uh it uh it reiterated 1660 01:53:59.159 --> 01:54:02.680 the idea that uranium two thirty five had weapons potential. 1661 01:54:03.479 --> 01:54:07.920 You know, so this was even independent of any New 1662 01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:12.960 Deal propaganda, independent of any you know kind of anxieties 1663 01:54:13.239 --> 01:54:17.520 uh well founded or not within the British intelligence establishment, 1664 01:54:18.319 --> 01:54:20.800 like there were just like worldwide, there were people who 1665 01:54:20.800 --> 01:54:24.439 were arguably, you know, like explendidly disinterested in the political 1666 01:54:24.479 --> 01:54:28.600 climate and the burgaining you know, battle lines who were 1667 01:54:28.640 --> 01:54:30.720 playing with this idea. You know, it was at least 1668 01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:35.439 on their radar. Okay. So the climate, the intellectual climate 1669 01:54:35.479 --> 01:54:38.840 into which everybody was sort of thrust who was taking 1670 01:54:38.840 --> 01:54:46.359 on a role in experimental physics and in any combatant 1671 01:54:46.399 --> 01:54:49.239 nation actual or potential. You know, there was there was 1672 01:54:49.439 --> 01:54:52.159 there was this kind of subtext of you know, military 1673 01:54:52.159 --> 01:54:56.000 potentially a direct military potential here. Okay, so I mean 1674 01:54:56.079 --> 01:54:59.199 to be fair, like that's got to uh, that's got 1675 01:54:59.199 --> 01:55:04.359 to be accounted for. Ada Han who you know, who 1676 01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:08.199 was an experimental physicist and who did have trumenous clout, 1677 01:55:08.600 --> 01:55:11.439 uh just just just across the board, like not just 1678 01:55:11.520 --> 01:55:17.439 but it's particularly within the uh, within the committee in 1679 01:55:17.640 --> 01:55:21.680 uh Berlin. Uh. He said that any project is essentially 1680 01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:28.600 you know, try and cultivate uranium two thirty five it 1681 01:55:28.600 --> 01:55:32.920 it'd be it'd be astronomically expensive anyway to present you know, 1682 01:55:33.000 --> 01:55:44.479 just insoluble difficulties. Professor Bagey, who was uh a pre 1683 01:55:44.520 --> 01:55:46.960 eminent researcher and he was kind of the top researcher 1684 01:55:46.960 --> 01:55:49.359 who was attached to Heisenberg in a direct capacity, like 1685 01:55:49.399 --> 01:55:53.159 he was literally his protege. He said, well, let's call 1686 01:55:53.199 --> 01:55:57.119 it Heisenberg himself. And you know, if if this is 1687 01:55:57.199 --> 01:56:00.399 possible or if this is just you know, a pipe dream, 1688 01:56:00.439 --> 01:56:02.840 not even the development of a bomb isn't that It's 1689 01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:06.119 not that's not the question on the table just you know, uh, 1690 01:56:06.840 --> 01:56:10.640 the uh the you know, the but the the extraction 1691 01:56:10.800 --> 01:56:15.359 of light uranium isotope in appreciable quantities, you know, like 1692 01:56:15.399 --> 01:56:19.119 he if if this is possible and if it's feasible, 1693 01:56:19.680 --> 01:56:23.359 you know, uh within you know our present means you know, 1694 01:56:23.399 --> 01:56:26.560 he'd be the man who could uh who could you know, 1695 01:56:26.600 --> 01:56:33.520 sort of shed light on this. Now, heisenbergola universally respected. 1696 01:56:33.960 --> 01:56:37.880 Like again, there was a basic element of disdain for 1697 01:56:37.960 --> 01:56:46.399 theoretical physics among uh many of these experimental physicists, and 1698 01:56:46.439 --> 01:56:50.199 that very much that that verificing of a parent when 1699 01:56:50.199 --> 01:56:54.640 Heisenberg kind of joined this, join this this this this 1700 01:56:54.720 --> 01:56:56.920 quum not a qual I mean, it was anything but 1701 01:56:56.960 --> 01:57:02.119 a quorum as a coterie, you know. In that Uh, 1702 01:57:02.520 --> 01:57:05.399 there was a lot of there's there's a lot of 1703 01:57:06.079 --> 01:57:08.600 there's a lot of contrarianism for his own sake, uh, 1704 01:57:08.840 --> 01:57:11.319 kind of thrown up in these discussions, which I think 1705 01:57:11.399 --> 01:57:13.760 David Irving in his book makes that point. And he 1706 01:57:13.800 --> 01:57:16.039 had opportunity to you know, speak to some of the 1707 01:57:16.079 --> 01:57:19.520 men who actually were in attendance at these meetings, at 1708 01:57:19.600 --> 01:57:25.239 least in like a more than oblique capacity. The UH 1709 01:57:25.720 --> 01:57:28.399 well was finally agreed upon, was basically that if there 1710 01:57:28.439 --> 01:57:33.199 was any if there was if there's any slight the 1711 01:57:33.439 --> 01:57:37.960 official statement what was decided, like the minutes of of 1712 01:57:38.680 --> 01:57:41.000 these kinds of like the collected minutes of these these 1713 01:57:41.039 --> 01:57:45.319 debates discussions was, uh what Professor Geiger said, if there 1714 01:57:45.359 --> 01:57:47.399 was any if there was even the slightest chance of 1715 01:57:47.479 --> 01:57:51.600 liberating energy from the atomic nucleus, it was, you know, 1716 01:57:51.800 --> 01:57:53.600 in any of these experiments, that it had to be 1717 01:57:53.640 --> 01:57:59.319 followed up. Okay, the UH it was recommended to General Becker, 1718 01:57:59.680 --> 01:58:04.840 you know, the the Ornaments Department chief. UH that that 1719 01:58:04.880 --> 01:58:09.159 it dedicated to quote Nuclear Physics Research Group, the organized 1720 01:58:09.439 --> 01:58:13.560 under these auspices, and you know, like we talked about 1721 01:58:13.800 --> 01:58:17.680 last time, like esaid, an amicable relationship already with Becker 1722 01:58:20.319 --> 01:58:22.479 and uh so, so it was it was it was. 1723 01:58:22.520 --> 01:58:26.680 It was made so for security reasons, and this too, 1724 01:58:26.840 --> 01:58:31.399 I think clouded perception of the Allies, at least in 1725 01:58:32.239 --> 01:58:38.199 those who were within military intelligence. For security reasons. The 1726 01:58:38.239 --> 01:58:46.319 project UH the language employed UH in documents relating to it. 1727 01:58:46.319 --> 01:58:51.000 It was all characterized as as research for the creation 1728 01:58:51.079 --> 01:58:56.520 of potential fuel sources for rocket propulsion. Okay, like the 1729 01:58:56.560 --> 01:59:01.159 actual Reich rocket program was, it became, it came into 1730 01:59:01.159 --> 01:59:04.159 the auspices of of the s S. Eventually, you know. 1731 01:59:04.199 --> 01:59:06.640 That's why von Braun like actually was in was in 1732 01:59:07.239 --> 01:59:09.159 was in uniform in the s S, you know, like 1733 01:59:09.199 --> 01:59:13.479 he was, you know, you like, it was formally incorporated 1734 01:59:13.520 --> 01:59:19.239 into the organization and in a very top down way. 1735 01:59:21.720 --> 01:59:24.720 You know, the rocket program is an example of how 1736 01:59:25.279 --> 01:59:27.600 of everything that you know, the that that that the 1737 01:59:27.680 --> 01:59:32.359 virus house program wasn't you know. And I also believe 1738 01:59:33.840 --> 01:59:41.960 owing to the intrinsically uh military language of uh you know, 1739 01:59:42.039 --> 01:59:45.920 this kind of deliberate mischaracterization of the program as a 1740 01:59:46.000 --> 01:59:49.319 rocket program, I think that may have convinced people who 1741 01:59:49.399 --> 01:59:52.279 came across kind of scraps and and statements out of 1742 01:59:52.319 --> 01:59:54.800 the ear, you know, who were spying on the Third Reich. 1743 01:59:55.439 --> 01:59:59.600 I I think they just made they they axiomnically determined, 1744 01:59:59.640 --> 02:00:02.119 like you know, well, this is this is a direct 1745 02:00:02.640 --> 02:00:07.239 this is a this is a direct military endeavor, you know, 1746 02:00:09.399 --> 02:00:15.119 and uh that that's not unreasonable, It's not unreasonable conclusion 1747 02:00:15.159 --> 02:00:18.800 to draw, especially if one understood how the German General 1748 02:00:18.840 --> 02:00:21.000 staff system work and kind of what the interplay was 1749 02:00:21.079 --> 02:00:25.279 between you know, technological research within what was nominally the 1750 02:00:25.279 --> 02:00:29.960 private sector, and you know, it's it's the ability of uh, 1751 02:00:30.279 --> 02:00:35.159 the military to capitalize on on these on these developments, 1752 02:00:35.760 --> 02:00:39.039 you know. But it's I think that's uh, I think 1753 02:00:39.039 --> 02:00:42.399 that's interesting. And it's also, uh it goes too like 1754 02:00:42.399 --> 02:00:45.560 we're priorities were you know, like kind of the people, 1755 02:00:45.680 --> 02:00:47.800 uh people in the Wehrmacht kind of like they viewed 1756 02:00:47.840 --> 02:00:51.239 as like the zenith kind of of of of vartech, 1757 02:00:52.600 --> 02:00:55.600 you know, was uh what was aerospace stuff. You know, 1758 02:00:55.640 --> 02:00:58.199 it's like with with with with rocketry obviously kind of 1759 02:00:58.199 --> 02:01:03.800 being the the absolute diseenth of of that. But the 1760 02:01:04.000 --> 02:01:13.039 uh it Uh. What also happened was on a on 1761 02:01:13.039 --> 02:01:19.119 on September sixteenth, for the the Kurt Diebner, who he 1762 02:01:19.159 --> 02:01:23.920 talked about last time. He was appointed to lead at 1763 02:01:24.000 --> 02:01:27.159 least nominally in the Nuclear Physics Research Group under Ordnance 1764 02:01:27.199 --> 02:01:35.680 Department auspices Doctor Bagge, who began keeping a diary for 1765 02:01:35.720 --> 02:01:37.119 the first time in his life, because I mean, I 1766 02:01:37.199 --> 02:01:40.640 think he realized, I'm sure he realized that whatever the 1767 02:01:40.680 --> 02:01:44.479 outcome of these endeavors, it was something you know, he 1768 02:01:44.560 --> 02:01:48.239 was participating in scientific history, you know, as he was 1769 02:01:48.279 --> 02:01:53.920 being made but on the UH, he notes that on 1770 02:01:53.960 --> 02:02:00.680 September sixteenth, nineteen thirty nine, Diebner summoned him personally UH 1771 02:02:00.880 --> 02:02:04.960 to report the Army Ordnance Department. He writes, participating the 1772 02:02:05.279 --> 02:02:09.039 quote conference about an important matter, then returned to Leipzig. 1773 02:02:11.479 --> 02:02:15.800 This was the last from this point on the reason 1774 02:02:15.840 --> 02:02:21.680 why he uses that UH, that deliberately minimalist language. Any 1775 02:02:21.720 --> 02:02:24.880 reference to the possibilities of uranium for any any of 1776 02:02:25.000 --> 02:02:31.720 any application, reactors, UH, super bombs, anything was considered was 1777 02:02:31.720 --> 02:02:35.000 classified as a state secret, okay, And all all references 1778 02:02:35.000 --> 02:02:38.680 the possibilities of uranium and energy derived from uranium was 1779 02:02:38.680 --> 02:02:43.880 was actively suppressed, okay, the first instance. And again this 1780 02:02:43.960 --> 02:02:49.720 goes to show you the kind of frosty relationship between 1781 02:02:50.199 --> 02:02:52.600 the private sector and the army in this regard, you know, 1782 02:02:52.880 --> 02:02:57.079 kind of splendidly contrary the situation is existed between the 1783 02:02:57.119 --> 02:03:03.720 aviation industry and UH, the military establishment, which was positively incestuous. 1784 02:03:04.800 --> 02:03:09.000 A Semens research chemist, you know, a Semen research physicists. 1785 02:03:09.000 --> 02:03:13.000 You know. Semens was a huge conglomerate, you know, like 1786 02:03:13.079 --> 02:03:17.119 they uh, they're basically insinuated everything on the cutting edge 1787 02:03:17.119 --> 02:03:21.319 of of UH of applied sciences. You know, as related 1788 02:03:21.359 --> 02:03:26.479 to industry and everything else. The UH he submitted in 1789 02:03:26.479 --> 02:03:31.279 an article UH to the main like German news agency. 1790 02:03:32.920 --> 02:03:37.399 It contained a detailed description of UH, you know, like 1791 02:03:37.439 --> 02:03:39.960 a kind of like the atomic science of the day, 1792 02:03:40.199 --> 02:03:42.840 you know, and it's it's supposed, you know, like marvelous 1793 02:03:42.880 --> 02:03:49.199 potential for purposes civilian and military. And it refers specifically 1794 02:03:49.199 --> 02:03:54.079 of the power contained in the uranium nucleus. And it said, quote, 1795 02:03:54.680 --> 02:03:57.720 it potentially contained enough to blast the ruins of a 1796 02:03:57.720 --> 02:04:00.840 giant city up into the stratosphere. What terrific powers of 1797 02:04:00.880 --> 02:04:02.960 annihilation and air force were have it could fight an 1798 02:04:03.039 --> 02:04:08.039 enemy with bombs like these end quote. And the writer 1799 02:04:08.239 --> 02:04:13.159 called UH and knowing certain terms for increased experiments. UH. 1800 02:04:13.279 --> 02:04:20.479 With masses of uranium, which again the Reich had access 1801 02:04:20.520 --> 02:04:26.600 to in Czechoslovakia. There were uranium reserves in Portugal too, 1802 02:04:26.960 --> 02:04:30.720 and later on late late, very late in the war, 1803 02:04:30.840 --> 02:04:36.680 even the British work advanced that this played into some 1804 02:04:36.720 --> 02:04:38.560 of the kind of you know, the reasons why like 1805 02:04:38.600 --> 02:04:42.960 in their view, UH, the Fear sort of treated UH 1806 02:04:43.319 --> 02:04:46.760 Franco with kid gloves. The majority of these the majority 1807 02:04:46.800 --> 02:04:49.479 of these resources were in Portugal, but obviously, you know, 1808 02:04:49.560 --> 02:04:55.239 it it UH that that the key to the uh 1809 02:04:55.640 --> 02:04:58.600 to the peninsula was Ibran Peninsula, Spain. But that's something 1810 02:04:58.600 --> 02:05:06.399 of a tangent. But the UH, the this this, this 1811 02:05:06.520 --> 02:05:10.000 article was totally suppressed, and UH the author was warned 1812 02:05:10.159 --> 02:05:17.199 like nothing of this nature can appear in print. When uh, 1813 02:05:17.680 --> 02:05:23.079 there was a papers on general atomic research were allowed, 1814 02:05:24.159 --> 02:05:30.119 including uh directly related to you know, experience involving uranium 1815 02:05:31.439 --> 02:05:36.680 and uh including the light isotope, but UH, no direct 1816 02:05:36.720 --> 02:05:39.960 mention of their context was to be made, and certainly 1817 02:05:40.000 --> 02:05:44.000 not any even speculative suggestion about you know, their employment 1818 02:05:44.079 --> 02:05:47.479 and weapons programs. Now we can look at that in 1819 02:05:47.520 --> 02:05:49.760 a number of ways, you know, like it's like we 1820 02:05:49.840 --> 02:05:57.119 talked about before, and I think you raised when you're 1821 02:05:57.119 --> 02:06:01.079 looking ahead. I mean, the Germans were actively at war 1822 02:06:01.119 --> 02:06:03.239 by this point. This was the you know, the two 1823 02:06:03.239 --> 02:06:07.479 weeks prior the United Kingdom in France and declared law 1824 02:06:07.520 --> 02:06:12.600 in Germany. But even at even at nominal peace, you know, 1825 02:06:12.640 --> 02:06:17.720 in a strategic landscape such that Germany was situated. You know, 1826 02:06:17.760 --> 02:06:21.039 the way, you've got to be careful with what you 1827 02:06:21.079 --> 02:06:25.399 introduced into the stream of information. You gotta be careful 1828 02:06:25.600 --> 02:06:31.760 about the disinformation you insinuate. And probably it was in 1829 02:06:31.800 --> 02:06:36.159 the minds of plenty of people that the last thing 1830 02:06:36.239 --> 02:06:40.479 that the right and needed was uh, you know, the 1831 02:06:40.520 --> 02:06:42.960 new dealers in the British being able to seize upon 1832 02:06:43.079 --> 02:06:46.560 statements by top scientists that Germany is working on super weapons. 1833 02:06:47.239 --> 02:06:51.000 You know, Hitler especially was very consent of this, like 1834 02:06:51.039 --> 02:06:56.800 so is Gerbels, and that uh that there's there's there's 1835 02:06:56.800 --> 02:07:02.800 a very interesting give and take around both men's respective 1836 02:07:02.880 --> 02:07:07.239 ideas on the role of you know, media at war 1837 02:07:07.680 --> 02:07:11.800 and as a political apparatus. But my point is that 1838 02:07:11.880 --> 02:07:14.039 it's not it's not just like prema fashion evidence that 1839 02:07:14.119 --> 02:07:18.640 oh Berlin demanded this be suppressed. They obviously were, you know, 1840 02:07:19.159 --> 02:07:21.800 this was their goal was to you know, do exactly 1841 02:07:21.840 --> 02:07:26.680 that what was suggested in the article by the Siemens physicists. 1842 02:07:26.720 --> 02:07:29.039 You know, it's quite a bit more nuanced because I've 1843 02:07:29.199 --> 02:07:36.319 run across we're a very basic treatments of that anecdote 1844 02:07:36.600 --> 02:07:46.760 that you know, profit precisely that sine conclusion the uh. Now, 1845 02:07:48.640 --> 02:07:55.680 one of the problems faced whatever the state of applied 1846 02:07:55.720 --> 02:08:00.000 research utilizing uranium two thirty five by the German scientists 1847 02:08:00.199 --> 02:08:08.119 was you know, whether whether as a dedicated weapons program 1848 02:08:08.239 --> 02:08:12.960 or just as you know, I'm trying to identify what 1849 02:08:13.199 --> 02:08:21.520 potentiality existed utilizing these you know, these these this element 1850 02:08:21.680 --> 02:08:24.279 specifically uranium thre thirty five is an energy source like whatever, 1851 02:08:24.319 --> 02:08:30.000 whatever the whatever, the ultimate goal was, there was a 1852 02:08:31.000 --> 02:08:34.199 there there's a problem with uh, there's a problem with 1853 02:08:34.239 --> 02:08:40.600 isolating uranium two thirty five and cultivating it. Okay, and uh, 1854 02:08:41.359 --> 02:08:45.000 this is such was the you know, they're from there 1855 02:08:45.199 --> 02:08:50.319 from whence emerges the concern about you know, it just 1856 02:08:50.359 --> 02:08:53.720 being a cost prohibitive affair, which makes it, you know, 1857 02:08:53.800 --> 02:09:03.479 functionally useless, particularly as a a military a military endeavor 1858 02:09:05.439 --> 02:09:14.359 the UH. September twenty nine, the second Conference of the 1859 02:09:14.439 --> 02:09:19.640 Nuclear Physicists at the Ordnance Department was held. The subject 1860 02:09:19.680 --> 02:09:25.359 of that conference was specifically means of extracting energy from 1861 02:09:25.399 --> 02:09:30.760 the uranium nucleus, either in either controlled amounts you know, 1862 02:09:31.159 --> 02:09:37.800 as would facilitate a reactor or uranium furnace, or or 1863 02:09:37.840 --> 02:09:47.000 in the uncontrolled chain reaction reactive violence of an explosion. Okay, 1864 02:09:47.760 --> 02:09:54.199 the first, the first accounlisting the first would would involve 1865 02:09:54.279 --> 02:09:57.159 mixing the uranium with some substance caple of literally slowing 1866 02:09:57.199 --> 02:10:00.760 down the high energy fast neutron is admitted during the 1867 02:10:00.760 --> 02:10:07.600 fishing process without absorbing them. For technical reasons I don't 1868 02:10:07.680 --> 02:10:11.960 quite understand. Neutrons of a certain energy band are particularly 1869 02:10:12.000 --> 02:10:18.039 prone to capture by uranium. So for them not to 1870 02:10:18.079 --> 02:10:24.399 be lost, uh, they these these these fishing neutrons had 1871 02:10:24.399 --> 02:10:27.680 to be had to be rapidly slowed down by some 1872 02:10:27.760 --> 02:10:31.399 kind of breaking substance or in science scientific language like 1873 02:10:31.479 --> 02:10:43.520 moderating elements or moderator. Okay, the uh The second uh 1874 02:10:44.079 --> 02:10:48.720 them possibility was that if if, if, if, that's gonna 1875 02:10:48.720 --> 02:10:51.239 be made to utilize this as an explosive, you know, 1876 02:10:51.399 --> 02:10:56.319 if a super bomb was in fact possible. You know. 1877 02:10:56.520 --> 02:11:00.800 The uh it was the rare I hope that was 1878 02:11:00.920 --> 02:11:03.920 needed to fish in with thermal neutrons. Okay, so how 1879 02:11:03.960 --> 02:11:05.760 do you how do you how do you get the 1880 02:11:06.000 --> 02:11:07.560 how do you get the uranium two three, five that 1881 02:11:07.600 --> 02:11:15.560 you need? You know? In the case of the first question, 1882 02:11:17.439 --> 02:11:22.000 a professor Harvick. He discussed the design of the uranium 1883 02:11:22.079 --> 02:11:27.279 reactor to solve both problems. Okay. He had a colleague 1884 02:11:27.359 --> 02:11:29.760 named doctor Hans Seuss, not doctor Seuss, the guy who 1885 02:11:29.800 --> 02:11:31.199 wrote like the cat in the head, Like this guy 1886 02:11:31.279 --> 02:11:33.279 is like an actual like doctor named Seuss like take 1887 02:11:33.319 --> 02:11:35.840 from that way you will. I know, some dick is 1888 02:11:35.840 --> 02:11:38.640 gonna mention starability, sneeches or something like. It's not about that, 1889 02:11:41.159 --> 02:11:45.640 Sue said, proposed that heavy water was uh, it was 1890 02:11:46.119 --> 02:11:50.880 was to be used in the in the UH as 1891 02:11:51.439 --> 02:11:56.399 as as as as the moderating element. Okay, what is 1892 02:11:56.479 --> 02:12:01.119 heavy water. It's a form of water. Obviously, we whose 1893 02:12:01.199 --> 02:12:06.159 hydrogen atoms are all dueterium, also known as heavy hydrogen, 1894 02:12:07.039 --> 02:12:09.720 rather than the common hydrogen isotope that makes it most 1895 02:12:09.760 --> 02:12:14.439 of the hydrogen and normal water. The presence of heavy 1896 02:12:14.600 --> 02:12:18.680 of heavier hydrogen, the heavier hydrogen isotope, it gives the 1897 02:12:18.720 --> 02:12:23.239 water different nuclear properties, and the increase in mass alters 1898 02:12:23.319 --> 02:12:27.359 the uh the physical and chemical properties as relates to 1899 02:12:27.399 --> 02:12:36.239 normal water. Okay. Now, so as this research went on, 1900 02:12:36.359 --> 02:12:39.520 in other words, you know, kind of like the challenges 1901 02:12:39.640 --> 02:12:41.359 like stacked up and up and up, and as I'm 1902 02:12:41.399 --> 02:12:47.920 sure you've gleaned, basically, uh, what became clear according to 1903 02:12:47.960 --> 02:12:50.920 the path the course of German research, and America was 1904 02:12:50.960 --> 02:12:55.840 able to avoid this entirely owing to plutonium. And we'll 1905 02:12:55.880 --> 02:12:58.319 get into that briefly if there's time or if people 1906 02:12:58.359 --> 02:13:01.319 are interested. But basically, like when it came clear of 1907 02:13:01.399 --> 02:13:04.159 the second conference. What was being floated is that, well, 1908 02:13:04.239 --> 02:13:05.920 it's not a question of do we build a bomb 1909 02:13:06.039 --> 02:13:07.920 or do we build a reactor or not not even 1910 02:13:08.000 --> 02:13:10.399 dew we but like what what's the potential here? Is 1911 02:13:10.439 --> 02:13:12.039 that if you want, if you want to do anything 1912 02:13:12.359 --> 02:13:15.760 like the latter, you you have to develop the former anyway, Okay, 1913 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:18.199 something This is just becoming like who's going to pay 1914 02:13:18.239 --> 02:13:21.840 for all this when this may not even be possible 1915 02:13:21.920 --> 02:13:26.399 and we may not even have access to the uranium 1916 02:13:26.880 --> 02:13:32.520 uranium pile reserves that we need in order to accomplish it. 1917 02:13:34.760 --> 02:13:47.880 The Heisenberg enter Heisenberg he was commissioned specifically to investigate 1918 02:13:47.960 --> 02:13:51.520 theoretically whether a chain reaction in uranium was possible given 1919 02:13:51.600 --> 02:13:58.000 the known UH properties of of of neutron fusion and 1920 02:13:58.119 --> 02:14:08.159 uranium fission and the characteristics there. And over time, this 1921 02:14:08.279 --> 02:14:11.119 is pre nineteen forty one. After ninety forty one, things changed. 1922 02:14:11.199 --> 02:14:15.920 Reasons we'll get into that kind of became the focus 1923 02:14:16.000 --> 02:14:17.359 of such that they're gonna be said to be like 1924 02:14:17.439 --> 02:14:24.640 a dedicated focus towards a uh A directly military application. Okay. 1925 02:14:24.760 --> 02:14:28.560 I think this is when discussions corral discreetly around the 1926 02:14:28.600 --> 02:14:33.920 potential of an atomic bomb, Okay, within German physics quarters 1927 02:14:34.079 --> 02:14:38.119 generally and specifically within this Ordnance department coterie of great 1928 02:14:38.159 --> 02:14:44.880 physics minds. Okay. And partly yeah, obviously because partly like 1929 02:14:45.000 --> 02:14:47.720 that's something that you know, the Wehrmacht needed to know 1930 02:14:47.800 --> 02:14:50.520 about if this was possible, you know, owing to the 1931 02:14:50.640 --> 02:14:53.680 fact that Germany was now at war. But also I mean, 1932 02:14:53.920 --> 02:14:59.279 if that's possible, if you know, basically like it's you know, 1933 02:14:59.399 --> 02:15:05.800 if if there's potential for you know, energy release at all, 1934 02:15:06.199 --> 02:15:08.520 you know, like the most kind of the most kind 1935 02:15:08.560 --> 02:15:12.560 of concrete way you know, to understand that in experimental 1936 02:15:12.680 --> 02:15:14.880 terms is to determine if you know, like an explosive 1937 02:15:14.960 --> 02:15:18.960 chain reaction can be cultivated. Okay. I think that must 1938 02:15:19.000 --> 02:15:22.119 be accounted for and based upon Heisenberg's own notes, Like 1939 02:15:22.159 --> 02:15:24.560 I'm talking about like his personal like opinion work product 1940 02:15:24.600 --> 02:15:28.000 that was you know, not for anybody else's eyes. This 1941 02:15:28.119 --> 02:15:33.399 seems to be the case because he never once talks 1942 02:15:33.439 --> 02:15:35.439 about you know, I mean, first of all, there was 1943 02:15:35.479 --> 02:15:39.479 his reactions when he was in captivity to the you know, 1944 02:15:39.560 --> 02:15:42.479 to the hero seem in Nagasaki texts, but also like 1945 02:15:42.560 --> 02:15:44.760 in his own I say, opinion work products. It wasn't 1946 02:15:44.800 --> 02:15:47.199 a proper diary. You know, he never wants to he write, 1947 02:15:47.279 --> 02:15:48.920 you know, some of the effect of you know, like 1948 02:15:49.560 --> 02:15:52.439 this we're we're working towards development of a bomb. I 1949 02:15:52.479 --> 02:15:54.840 mean he writes a lot and he and he raised issues, 1950 02:15:55.039 --> 02:16:00.680 uh with with colleagues about you know, the reality of 1951 02:16:01.079 --> 02:16:05.560 of of this research for various you know, in various capacities. 1952 02:16:05.640 --> 02:16:10.039 But Number once does want to get the idea that 1953 02:16:10.520 --> 02:16:13.279 you know, he saw himself as insinuated into some sort 1954 02:16:13.279 --> 02:16:20.199 of like German Manhattan project. The uh around the same time, uh, 1955 02:16:21.079 --> 02:16:24.439 the War Office somewhat abruptly, uh, they took over the 1956 02:16:25.840 --> 02:16:28.600 they took over the building on the camps of the 1957 02:16:28.640 --> 02:16:34.399 Kaiservillehelm Institute of Physics, Okay, because it had it had 1958 02:16:34.440 --> 02:16:39.719 the best equipment for for for applied atomic research, probably 1959 02:16:40.680 --> 02:16:46.399 probably in Europe, definitely within Germany. All uh, all scientists 1960 02:16:46.440 --> 02:16:52.799 participating in you know, the uh, the War Office project, 1961 02:16:53.239 --> 02:16:56.760 uh were they they were they were asked to transfer 1962 02:16:56.840 --> 02:16:59.959 this one central institute, you know, so that like they 1963 02:17:00.000 --> 02:17:03.760 basically like all hands to be on deck under one roof. 1964 02:17:05.799 --> 02:17:08.280 This is this is absolutely necessary, Okay, especially when we're 1965 02:17:08.319 --> 02:17:15.040 talking about this kind of advanced research. The problem is 1966 02:17:15.479 --> 02:17:19.360 these men all had uh you know, these weren't military 1967 02:17:19.440 --> 02:17:23.200 men to a man, they were ah, you know, civilian researchers. 1968 02:17:24.000 --> 02:17:28.479 They had egos. Uh. They they were all, you know, 1969 02:17:28.719 --> 02:17:31.159 kind of the kingfish of the pond they were situated 1970 02:17:31.200 --> 02:17:34.440 at in their respective institutions. But it's also you know, 1971 02:17:34.559 --> 02:17:35.920 some of these guys were young, but a lot of 1972 02:17:35.959 --> 02:17:38.799 them weren't. You know, it's like they people become very 1973 02:17:38.840 --> 02:17:41.760 attached their research, particularly men I'd have to imagine a 1974 02:17:42.040 --> 02:17:44.879 brilliant intellect. You know, they didn't want to they didn't 1975 02:17:44.879 --> 02:17:46.639 want to be part of a team. I mean, who 1976 02:17:46.680 --> 02:17:51.239 the hell does you know, like in that capacity. So 1977 02:17:51.559 --> 02:17:57.360 uh most almost most of them, uh like almost all 1978 02:17:57.360 --> 02:18:01.479 of them objected, and many of them just declined. They 1979 02:18:01.600 --> 02:18:04.040 just declined, what amount of do a direct order? Okay? 1980 02:18:04.159 --> 02:18:07.000 But it's like the cachet that these men had was, 1981 02:18:07.200 --> 02:18:10.959 you know, you cannot you can't, you can't replace nuclear physicists, okay. 1982 02:18:11.120 --> 02:18:17.440 And like it's the uh who was corralled there uh 1983 02:18:18.079 --> 02:18:22.040 at the Berlin Dalum Uh the kinds of Vellam institute 1984 02:18:23.319 --> 02:18:32.680 like Weisiker, Vitz, Bob Borman, Fisher and Heisenberg was often present. 1985 02:18:34.280 --> 02:18:37.360 So I mean there was like a core uh, there 1986 02:18:37.399 --> 02:18:39.000 there was there was there there was a core like 1987 02:18:39.120 --> 02:18:45.879 working group that did exactly what was what was directed. 1988 02:18:46.639 --> 02:18:51.799 But it indicated a real you know, it indicated a 1989 02:18:51.879 --> 02:18:56.360 real lack of of concrete focus and kind of top 1990 02:18:56.399 --> 02:19:01.239 down discipline towards a directed goal, you know. And that's uh, 1991 02:19:05.760 --> 02:19:10.719 that's I think that's more symptomatic than causitive. I mean 1992 02:19:10.760 --> 02:19:14.639 it's not you know, it's it's not it's That's important 1993 02:19:14.639 --> 02:19:17.840 to understand too, is that, you know, when we're not 1994 02:19:17.959 --> 02:19:22.200 talking about you know, a true German atomic bomb project, 1995 02:19:22.360 --> 02:19:29.920 but that was sabotaged by outside egos and eccentricities. It's uh. 1996 02:19:30.440 --> 02:19:32.719 And I want the second key takeaway too, is that 1997 02:19:33.559 --> 02:19:35.479 there's this there's this idea that you know, there was 1998 02:19:35.559 --> 02:19:38.200 some like brain drain in Germany because like, you know, 1999 02:19:38.239 --> 02:19:41.079 all the brilliant physicists were Jewish like and got chased out. 2000 02:19:41.120 --> 02:19:44.399 That's not true at all. Heisenberg probably was like the 2001 02:19:44.520 --> 02:19:47.680 leading physics mind like on this planet, you know, and uh, 2002 02:19:48.040 --> 02:19:51.280 you know Weisigervitz, Bob is Borman. I mean, all these 2003 02:19:51.319 --> 02:19:55.360 guys like they were boggy dee neer like they they're 2004 02:19:55.360 --> 02:19:59.040 at the top of their game. And frankly, you know, 2005 02:19:59.360 --> 02:20:02.000 they weren't. None of these guys were like party men 2006 02:20:03.440 --> 02:20:06.920 and or dedicated national socialists, but they weren't about to 2007 02:20:07.000 --> 02:20:10.399 reject their father land. Whige frankly had done tremendous things 2008 02:20:10.479 --> 02:20:13.959 for them in terms of facilitating their research in all 2009 02:20:14.079 --> 02:20:19.360 kinds of ways, and you know, providing them with you know, 2010 02:20:19.559 --> 02:20:24.680 not just the material means, but the kind of social 2011 02:20:24.799 --> 02:20:28.920 capital and and and structural resources to you know, to 2012 02:20:29.040 --> 02:20:35.239 practice there there you know, there their uh, their experiments 2013 02:20:35.319 --> 02:20:37.520 and everything else. Or or in Heisenberger's case, you know, 2014 02:20:37.639 --> 02:20:42.520 like there was really probably in uh probably in France 2015 02:20:42.600 --> 02:20:45.319 and probably in in in like the Nordic countries. I mean, 2016 02:20:45.360 --> 02:20:47.440 he would have been like a luminary, but it you know, 2017 02:20:47.559 --> 02:20:53.239 he I mean Germany was Germany was uh what was 2018 02:20:53.399 --> 02:20:55.520 was was was was the center man, it was the 2019 02:20:56.879 --> 02:21:02.559 it was the actual pivot of h of scientific research 2020 02:21:02.639 --> 02:21:07.319 and endeavor in Europe. That can't be denied, you know, 2021 02:21:07.399 --> 02:21:13.280 and like the that's also uh, there was a disadvantage 2022 02:21:13.319 --> 02:21:20.840 here because uh mau talk uh but his uh one 2023 02:21:20.959 --> 02:21:23.319 one of the you know, one of the one of 2024 02:21:23.319 --> 02:21:26.520 the researchers. He said to know in certain terms that 2025 02:21:28.319 --> 02:21:31.280 you know, he was delighted to be assigned this project 2026 02:21:31.399 --> 02:21:35.440 because you know, he could continue with atomic research and 2027 02:21:35.520 --> 02:21:38.120 his young colleagues, who we thought had great potential. He said, 2028 02:21:38.159 --> 02:21:40.399 we could protect them from getting called up to the draft. 2029 02:21:40.840 --> 02:21:42.959 You know, we could continue our scientific research in a 2030 02:21:43.000 --> 02:21:45.159 matter which we were accustomed like whether other people had 2031 02:21:45.200 --> 02:21:48.280 to tighten their belts, you know, other other young guys, 2032 02:21:48.600 --> 02:21:53.239 you know, who had a bright future and whatever career field. 2033 02:21:53.559 --> 02:21:56.600 You know, we're having to go fight, you know, for 2034 02:21:56.680 --> 02:21:59.719 the fatherland. You know. He's like, we were basically unmolested, 2035 02:22:00.399 --> 02:22:03.440 you know, So, I mean that's that's totally different, totally 2036 02:22:03.440 --> 02:22:07.120 of an idea or sensibility. That was the case with 2037 02:22:07.159 --> 02:22:10.559 the Manhattan product scientists and in the UK man like 2038 02:22:11.559 --> 02:22:15.559 there was uh the uh you know, there was like 2039 02:22:15.639 --> 02:22:19.159 we talked about, you know, Churchill had very uh he 2040 02:22:19.520 --> 02:22:21.200 in his in the and his sponsors. I mean they 2041 02:22:21.280 --> 02:22:25.360 re effectively you know, kind of kind of drowned out 2042 02:22:25.639 --> 02:22:28.280 dissident voices as respect to the war effort, you know, 2043 02:22:28.440 --> 02:22:32.000 and it had becomes something of a career killer, and 2044 02:22:32.520 --> 02:22:36.079 especially in university life, which frankly, you know, was there 2045 02:22:36.159 --> 02:22:40.600 was a lot of Jewish influence there. You know, these 2046 02:22:40.680 --> 02:22:43.440 these uh, these guys in the UK or the counterparts 2047 02:22:44.200 --> 02:22:47.239 you know, to the UH to the Virus House UH 2048 02:22:47.840 --> 02:22:51.079 team as well as the Manhattan Project team. You know, 2049 02:22:51.159 --> 02:22:53.760 they they were very much, uh, they were very much 2050 02:22:53.799 --> 02:22:58.360 working in a dedicated capacity after nineteen forty one to 2051 02:22:58.479 --> 02:23:01.399 weaponize atomic energy to be turned against Germany. And they 2052 02:23:01.440 --> 02:23:03.799 had no qualms with this at all, you know. I 2053 02:23:03.879 --> 02:23:06.479 mean it wasn't even a question of qualms with the Germans. 2054 02:23:06.639 --> 02:23:08.399 This wasn't even on the radar, you know. I mean, 2055 02:23:08.440 --> 02:23:12.079 I can't eemhacize that enough. And if this was in 2056 02:23:12.120 --> 02:23:16.040 the military's mind, which I don't think it could have been, 2057 02:23:16.159 --> 02:23:19.399 because I mean they that the men who could conceptualize 2058 02:23:19.440 --> 02:23:23.879 these things, we're all you know in in academ i. 2059 02:23:24.360 --> 02:23:25.559 You know, if you if you're if the men who 2060 02:23:25.559 --> 02:23:31.360 can actually perform the experiments as required to facilitate the 2061 02:23:31.399 --> 02:23:34.479 engineering of such devices as will be coveted by the 2062 02:23:34.559 --> 02:23:36.559 arn't forces. I mean, if you can't, you can't make 2063 02:23:36.600 --> 02:23:42.040 them do that. I mean you're you're pissing into the wind. Uh. No, 2064 02:23:44.120 --> 02:23:50.319 what changed in nineteen forty one the Germans. Everything changed 2065 02:23:50.360 --> 02:23:55.239 in December, but before that, in July nineteen forty one. 2066 02:23:57.959 --> 02:24:02.280 The Ministry of Aircraft Production, which has something of an 2067 02:24:02.319 --> 02:24:07.159 outsized role in the UH. In what we can think 2068 02:24:07.200 --> 02:24:09.639 of is kind of like the Churchill Defense Establishment or 2069 02:24:09.760 --> 02:24:13.520 like you know, arms establishment, I mean for obvious reasons, 2070 02:24:13.760 --> 02:24:17.079 you know, I mean and UH, I mean the the 2071 02:24:17.360 --> 02:24:20.280 UK realized early on and it hit a transition to UH, 2072 02:24:21.399 --> 02:24:24.520 a major make transition to a major air power. Otherwise, 2073 02:24:24.879 --> 02:24:26.520 you know, like the Royal Navy would only be as 2074 02:24:26.559 --> 02:24:30.280 dominant as a as A as the Royal Air Force 2075 02:24:30.479 --> 02:24:35.000 could be to defendant. So they so they so the 2076 02:24:35.079 --> 02:24:38.559 air Ministry and all of its attendant kind of appendages 2077 02:24:38.920 --> 02:24:45.959 UH developed a lot of clout. There was a special 2078 02:24:46.040 --> 02:24:53.840 committee appointed UH to research UH the UH the potential 2079 02:24:53.959 --> 02:25:00.920 of atomic energy. Okay, it can alluted that and effective 2080 02:25:01.040 --> 02:25:08.360 uranium bomb and again uranium out until UH, until American 2081 02:25:08.840 --> 02:25:11.399 research became kind of known to the world, like after 2082 02:25:11.920 --> 02:25:17.399 forty five in a complete capacity. Everybody's you know, uranium 2083 02:25:17.520 --> 02:25:20.319 was what everybody thought of when they thought of weapons potential. 2084 02:25:21.959 --> 02:25:29.559 The UH. This UH, the Aircraft Production Committee's report was 2085 02:25:29.600 --> 02:25:32.680 that about twenty five pounds of uranium two thirty five 2086 02:25:36.360 --> 02:25:39.079 the yield could be equivalent to about each indred tons 2087 02:25:39.120 --> 02:25:44.680 of TNT and uh the committee. The committee's conclusion was 2088 02:25:44.719 --> 02:25:52.440 that Germany having a taken steps to cultivate heavy water, 2089 02:25:55.079 --> 02:25:59.120 coupled with uh, you know, their uh, their increase in 2090 02:25:59.799 --> 02:26:04.200 my of uranium war within uh you know, they newly 2091 02:26:05.399 --> 02:26:09.959 that they newly gained access to in what was Czechoslovakia, 2092 02:26:12.760 --> 02:26:17.680 that it's obvious that you know, uh, even you know 2093 02:26:17.760 --> 02:26:20.200 they they're the state of Germany is and that they're 2094 02:26:20.200 --> 02:26:22.479 not they're not looking to utilize this for peaceful purposes. 2095 02:26:22.760 --> 02:26:25.719 You know. The only immediate benefit to the German Reich 2096 02:26:26.079 --> 02:26:31.159 of finding ways to release the energy contained there in 2097 02:26:31.639 --> 02:26:35.879 would be you know, in a weaponized capacity. I think 2098 02:26:35.959 --> 02:26:38.639 by this point, I think the British probably believed this. 2099 02:26:39.479 --> 02:26:41.040 I mean, who the hell knows. I mean, like we 2100 02:26:41.159 --> 02:26:49.239 talked about these guys were zealous anyway, but considering that, 2101 02:26:53.079 --> 02:26:58.079 you know, uh, there was far less known. I mean, 2102 02:26:58.159 --> 02:26:59.920 bring that some top signed is, but there's far less 2103 02:27:00.079 --> 02:27:02.239 known there than it was known in America, you know, 2104 02:27:02.479 --> 02:27:10.000 about what the kind of real world application of these 2105 02:27:10.040 --> 02:27:13.959 things would look like. I think that they probably believe, 2106 02:27:14.159 --> 02:27:16.600 like you know, anything, that the Germans were willing to 2107 02:27:16.680 --> 02:27:22.920 dedicate this kind of effort too, is UH is going 2108 02:27:23.000 --> 02:27:27.399 to be explicitly military and probably you know, some kind 2109 02:27:27.440 --> 02:27:33.680 of massive force multiplier that's misguided for a lot of reasons, 2110 02:27:34.200 --> 02:27:38.680 not ethically, if actually, but in a fog of war 2111 02:27:38.799 --> 02:27:43.920 kind of scenario with the state of science at the time, 2112 02:27:44.520 --> 02:27:48.959 that was UH, you know, available even to an expert. 2113 02:27:49.840 --> 02:27:53.360 I I I think they probably believed what they conveyed 2114 02:27:54.440 --> 02:28:01.520 the Churchill the UH. They further said that the material 2115 02:28:02.440 --> 02:28:06.879 for an atomic weapon UH at the earliest, at the 2116 02:28:06.959 --> 02:28:09.120 very earliest, could be available to Britain by the end 2117 02:28:09.120 --> 02:28:12.360 of nineteen forty three. You know. But that also, you know, 2118 02:28:12.399 --> 02:28:14.159 begs the question as to like, what would we do 2119 02:28:14.280 --> 02:28:20.200 with it and would it even work? But the UH 2120 02:28:21.959 --> 02:28:24.719 This of course led the British to UH try and 2121 02:28:24.760 --> 02:28:28.079 see if they could find out about the Uranian research 2122 02:28:28.159 --> 02:28:35.399 program through their contexts in Norway, the UH the primary 2123 02:28:35.479 --> 02:28:40.639 German heavy water facility was at Razuken, Norway. If I'm 2124 02:28:40.680 --> 02:28:42.520 butchering that, forgive me Juken. 2125 02:28:43.719 --> 02:28:44.239 I think. 2126 02:28:45.920 --> 02:28:53.120 R j U k A N. The problem is, as 2127 02:28:53.239 --> 02:28:55.079 I think the subscribers know, because we got into it 2128 02:28:55.159 --> 02:28:58.639 in our Churchill episodes, the Norwegians are not a particularly 2129 02:28:58.639 --> 02:29:01.040 warm feelings about the British, particularly when the British had 2130 02:29:01.040 --> 02:29:06.879 intended to assault and invade and occupy Norway preemptively. So 2131 02:29:09.600 --> 02:29:15.559 throughout the summer nine forty one, as UH intelligence came 2132 02:29:15.600 --> 02:29:22.879 in from UH Trondheim to London, you know from their 2133 02:29:22.920 --> 02:29:28.239 intelligence operatives that uh, you know, heavy water production that 2134 02:29:28.360 --> 02:29:35.559 Rajukan you know, was steadily increasing. The uh, the uh, 2135 02:29:38.600 --> 02:29:43.159 the priority of UH, the priority of the Prime Minister, 2136 02:29:44.000 --> 02:29:46.040 you know, as well as everybody in the intelligence into 2137 02:29:46.079 --> 02:29:50.319 military establishment was to uh you know, bring the Norwegian 2138 02:29:50.520 --> 02:29:56.360 UH Intelligence Service on board and uh you know, essentially 2139 02:29:56.479 --> 02:30:01.440 get somebody to you know, kind of penetrate there was 2140 02:30:01.479 --> 02:30:05.760 Jukan facility or or at least uh, you know, develop 2141 02:30:05.879 --> 02:30:11.000 a a way of conveying information back to London that 2142 02:30:11.120 --> 02:30:13.239 might be usable in terms of how you know, the 2143 02:30:13.280 --> 02:30:18.159 facility could be could be compromised and uh derailed from 2144 02:30:18.200 --> 02:30:23.799 its purpose. They UH Norwegian essentially told him to go 2145 02:30:23.879 --> 02:30:29.760 to hell, you know, they they the official response from 2146 02:30:29.840 --> 02:30:32.200 a There was a guy named Welsh. He was a 2147 02:30:32.200 --> 02:30:39.879 lieutenant commander in UH British in u in in UH 2148 02:30:40.159 --> 02:30:41.799 in the British Army went on to serve in the 2149 02:30:41.840 --> 02:30:45.760 Intelligence Service he'd married a Norwegian woman, and he was 2150 02:30:45.879 --> 02:30:51.360 chief the Norwegian section of UH, the intelligence service. He 2151 02:30:51.559 --> 02:30:56.159 UH he contacted UH when he when he contacted his 2152 02:30:56.319 --> 02:30:59.920 counterparts in Norwegian intelligence, apparently they literally said to him 2153 02:30:59.920 --> 02:31:03.559 a telegram, blood is thicker than heavy water, you know, 2154 02:31:03.680 --> 02:31:05.879 like basically, we go fund yourself, you know, like we're not. 2155 02:31:06.639 --> 02:31:08.159 We're not. We do we want to be thrilled that 2156 02:31:08.200 --> 02:31:10.920 they that that, you know, the the bare amount is 2157 02:31:11.000 --> 02:31:12.559 here and we don't know what the hell they're doing, 2158 02:31:13.879 --> 02:31:16.879 you know, at this facility, but you know, we're not. 2159 02:31:17.159 --> 02:31:19.040 We're not gonna help you in Piggy Churchill will find 2160 02:31:19.079 --> 02:31:21.559 other ways to attack our country, you know. And I 2161 02:31:21.600 --> 02:31:29.319 think that's really interesting, especially considering how in UH, particularly 2162 02:31:29.399 --> 02:31:32.280 in in in English history books and like Quizzling is 2163 02:31:32.319 --> 02:31:34.799 held out as just this like it's just this buffoon, 2164 02:31:34.920 --> 02:31:36.639 when in reality he was a great man. But also 2165 02:31:36.719 --> 02:31:43.360 they it's pretended that like Norway was a either fully 2166 02:31:43.399 --> 02:31:45.600 on board with the Allies with this like victim state, 2167 02:31:45.760 --> 02:31:47.840 you know, like a lot like you know, there was 2168 02:31:47.920 --> 02:31:51.799 a about five sweet five and ten thousand Norwegians like 2169 02:31:51.879 --> 02:31:55.440 joining vafen SS and for a populationized in Norway, that's substantial, 2170 02:31:55.959 --> 02:31:59.040 like Nude Hampson. It was kind of like the National 2171 02:31:59.120 --> 02:32:01.200 Scribe in Norway. You know, he literally wrote a eulogy 2172 02:32:01.239 --> 02:32:03.120 to add Off Hitler like they I mean, there, Ourwegians 2173 02:32:03.159 --> 02:32:06.840 are great people, but I and it's just an interesting 2174 02:32:07.000 --> 02:32:11.479 kind of wrinkle that you know, they refuse to participate 2175 02:32:12.639 --> 02:32:16.559 in kind of these UH, these designs of of London, 2176 02:32:18.559 --> 02:32:22.280 even at the height of the of the of the 2177 02:32:22.360 --> 02:32:29.040 early phase of the war. At the UH same time 2178 02:32:31.799 --> 02:32:36.040 the UH, the British approached, at least as we know 2179 02:32:36.159 --> 02:32:40.719 from the record, the British approached the senior British scientific 2180 02:32:40.799 --> 02:32:49.239 representative and UH in the in in in the air 2181 02:32:49.280 --> 02:32:54.879 Mistry Committee. He wrote, He wrote to the chairman of UH, 2182 02:32:55.879 --> 02:32:59.479 Roosevelt's Scientific Advisory Committee, like when he was in Washington, 2183 02:32:59.600 --> 02:33:04.920 I believe like if I read that right, you know, 2184 02:33:05.000 --> 02:33:07.399 basically like you know, kind of feeling out, you know, 2185 02:33:07.520 --> 02:33:10.280 the the Yanks about you know, what the state of 2186 02:33:10.319 --> 02:33:13.959 their research was. And of course like they nobody else 2187 02:33:14.000 --> 02:33:16.280 had the Manhattan Project, you know, like knew anything. Like 2188 02:33:16.319 --> 02:33:19.159 even if they had, I it's I mean, it's debatable 2189 02:33:19.159 --> 02:33:23.040 if they would have just closed that or not. You know, 2190 02:33:23.120 --> 02:33:27.559 there was a it was a security was very very tight, 2191 02:33:27.760 --> 02:33:31.760 to say the least, but he floted the question, you know, 2192 02:33:31.840 --> 02:33:34.680 this is it proves possible to manufacture a uranium bomb, 2193 02:33:34.719 --> 02:33:37.360 you know, should in fact be used? You know, like 2194 02:33:38.040 --> 02:33:41.440 should we should should it should? You know one of 2195 02:33:41.479 --> 02:33:45.559 our respective general staffs are both like are they willing 2196 02:33:45.639 --> 02:33:48.879 and should they sanction the total destruction of Berlin and 2197 02:33:49.000 --> 02:33:53.239 the entire you know, or or like the entire country 2198 02:33:53.280 --> 02:33:56.000 in Germany, you know, with with a weapons such as this, 2199 02:33:56.600 --> 02:34:01.479 you know, And it's uh, that's really the only the 2200 02:34:01.600 --> 02:34:06.920 kind of the kind of lame indirect reply was from Stimson, 2201 02:34:08.159 --> 02:34:12.079 who in Stimpson, like I mentioned earlier tonight, but also 2202 02:34:12.159 --> 02:34:14.360 like in the past I've mentioned that Stimpson was a 2203 02:34:15.079 --> 02:34:17.200 you know, an outlier in the new New Dealer regime. 2204 02:34:17.319 --> 02:34:19.719 But you know he said years after the fact that 2205 02:34:20.879 --> 02:34:26.399 you know, in ninety three we believed, based on you know, 2206 02:34:26.840 --> 02:34:31.399 intelligence derived that we consider reliable, that you know, the 2207 02:34:31.520 --> 02:34:35.440 Germans were far ahead of us and weaponized atomic research. 2208 02:34:36.760 --> 02:34:40.520 I think Stimpson probably believed that. But it's interesting I 2209 02:34:40.600 --> 02:34:46.559 raised the issue of the UK scientific representative like not 2210 02:34:46.639 --> 02:34:48.760 only raising this moral quagmire, but you know, kind of 2211 02:34:48.799 --> 02:34:53.799 putting it to paper literally in the documentary record. That's 2212 02:34:53.799 --> 02:34:59.680 the only that's the only such moral qualm I've ever 2213 02:34:59.760 --> 02:35:05.000 heard from a British source about about the about the 2214 02:35:05.079 --> 02:35:08.360 atomic bomb from you know, from the era before it 2215 02:35:08.559 --> 02:35:13.079 was it even you know, had been devised into existence. 2216 02:35:16.000 --> 02:35:21.079 Bomber Harris, uh spoke very candidly and intelligently and the 2217 02:35:21.159 --> 02:35:24.879 morality of strategic bombing you know later on, but that 2218 02:35:25.440 --> 02:35:32.360 not of the out of the nuclear question. But it's uh, 2219 02:35:32.680 --> 02:35:36.159 I think the stuff's useful to kind of it paints 2220 02:35:36.200 --> 02:35:38.319 a picture of what was in the minds of the 2221 02:35:38.639 --> 02:35:45.639 relevant players, you know, like I said by them, I 2222 02:35:46.120 --> 02:35:50.879 in reality, America was far ahead of everybody in terms 2223 02:35:50.920 --> 02:35:57.319 of you know, applied atomic weapons research. Plutonium was first synthesized, 2224 02:35:58.239 --> 02:36:05.319 synthetically produced, and isolated in late nineteen forty by deuteron 2225 02:36:05.440 --> 02:36:09.360 bombardment of uranium two thirty eight in a cyclotron at 2226 02:36:09.520 --> 02:36:17.879 Unity of California, Berkeley, Okay, and the ultimately plutonium plutonium 2227 02:36:17.920 --> 02:36:20.680 proved to be a game changer. The Nagasaki bomb was 2228 02:36:20.719 --> 02:36:25.520 a was a plutonium bomb, Okay. But even like, aside 2229 02:36:25.559 --> 02:36:31.280 from that, just uh it separating uh, plutonium from a 2230 02:36:31.360 --> 02:36:35.319 chain you're acting uranium pile and then using that as 2231 02:36:35.319 --> 02:36:37.959 an atomic explosive. Just the fact that that possibility had 2232 02:36:38.000 --> 02:36:43.680 been recognized, that meant that you know, from you know, 2233 02:36:43.760 --> 02:36:46.159 basically from inception of the Manhattan Project was like on 2234 02:36:46.280 --> 02:36:49.520 the path like developing an atomic bomb, like in concrete terms, 2235 02:36:50.559 --> 02:36:53.799 which is pretty remarkable. I mean in all kinds of ways, 2236 02:36:53.959 --> 02:37:05.319 I mean, like good and bad. But the the UH, yeah, 2237 02:37:05.719 --> 02:37:10.440 I was gonna say, Oh, the UH summer of nineteen 2238 02:37:10.479 --> 02:37:17.680 forty one in Germany, the UH, the Army of Research 2239 02:37:17.760 --> 02:37:21.520 Department had formally contracted Norwegian Hydro for a supply of 2240 02:37:21.559 --> 02:37:25.200 fifteen hundred kilograms of heavy water between October and the 2241 02:37:25.319 --> 02:37:32.479 end of the year or but from October nineteen end 2242 02:37:32.479 --> 02:37:33.959 of the year only three to sixty one kilgrams have 2243 02:37:34.040 --> 02:37:39.920 been delivered. It was slow going. In other words, like 2244 02:37:40.040 --> 02:37:46.719 if if this was in a like even if even 2245 02:37:46.760 --> 02:37:50.159 in the process which was outlined at the second Berlin Conference, 2246 02:37:50.680 --> 02:37:52.639 which essentially amount of do you know, the creation of 2247 02:37:52.719 --> 02:37:58.120 a reactor and subsequently, you know, the utilization of that 2248 02:37:58.280 --> 02:38:02.559 reactor and the heavy water cooling to uh, you know, 2249 02:38:04.879 --> 02:38:07.079 to cultivate uranium two thirty five, Like even if that, 2250 02:38:07.200 --> 02:38:10.000 even if that was the objective and it was on track. 2251 02:38:10.200 --> 02:38:14.959 Arguably in terms of you know, both intent and capability. 2252 02:38:15.319 --> 02:38:20.440 This seems far too slow a process to make any 2253 02:38:20.520 --> 02:38:23.479 kind of difference on the Battlefeel'll get into exactly what 2254 02:38:23.559 --> 02:38:28.200 I mean in a minute. But what's important is that once, once, this, 2255 02:38:28.559 --> 02:38:34.319 once this heavy water cultivation got underway, Heisenberg attested. He 2256 02:38:34.319 --> 02:38:36.760 said it was from September forty one. He's like, we 2257 02:38:36.840 --> 02:38:38.559 saw an open a road ahead of us leading to 2258 02:38:38.639 --> 02:38:40.920 an atomic bomb. Okay, It's like, this is when I 2259 02:38:41.040 --> 02:38:45.479 became convinced this was at least possible. And that's when, uh, 2260 02:38:46.239 --> 02:38:50.399 you know, just kind of a what was what was 2261 02:38:50.479 --> 02:38:54.680 gleaned from you know, just these processes that were actively underway. 2262 02:38:56.200 --> 02:38:59.399 Things came into focus and a kind of conceptual capacity. 2263 02:38:59.479 --> 02:39:01.639 Ethemics like, I'm not a scientist, so I take these 2264 02:39:01.680 --> 02:39:04.959 guys words for it in their testimony when they suggest 2265 02:39:05.040 --> 02:39:09.440 that this is this is a you know, a real process. 2266 02:39:09.719 --> 02:39:15.879 Whatever the endeavor is, Neil's borr uh, and this is important. 2267 02:39:16.520 --> 02:39:19.239 The end of October ninety forty one, heis montrail the 2268 02:39:19.280 --> 02:39:21.840 Denmark to seek out Neils Borr, who was one of 2269 02:39:21.879 --> 02:39:24.680 the pre eminent physics minds on this planet, and heisen 2270 02:39:24.799 --> 02:39:27.760 he was something of a mentor to Heisenberg. Heisenberg asked 2271 02:39:27.799 --> 02:39:32.639 him in at Boor's home, he said, you know, and 2272 02:39:32.840 --> 02:39:35.520 I wassly Heisenberg wasn't being loose lipped and telling him 2273 02:39:35.559 --> 02:39:40.559 like what he was working on. He asked for just 2274 02:39:40.799 --> 02:39:44.440 you know, basically like, you know, what what do you 2275 02:39:44.479 --> 02:39:46.600 think of the like is there a moral obligation and 2276 02:39:46.719 --> 02:39:50.559 not cultivate, you know, a weapon from atomic energy? Like 2277 02:39:50.680 --> 02:39:53.200 basically like, what's the moral implications of working on an 2278 02:39:53.200 --> 02:39:55.719 atomic bomb in wartime if such a thing were possible? 2279 02:39:58.680 --> 02:40:04.200 You know, Orr said that you know it, you know, 2280 02:40:04.520 --> 02:40:09.600 well you know the responsibility to once fatherland versus you know, 2281 02:40:09.680 --> 02:40:12.239 his duty to you know, the scientific community as well 2282 02:40:12.280 --> 02:40:14.479 as you know, like human progress, all these things only 2283 02:40:14.479 --> 02:40:21.440 need to be weighed. Borr afterwards came away believing that 2284 02:40:21.520 --> 02:40:23.840 this was like Heisenberg's kind of like it was either 2285 02:40:23.920 --> 02:40:27.200 Heisenberg sort of like thinly veiled confession or it was 2286 02:40:27.280 --> 02:40:28.959 him trying to convey to him and sort of like 2287 02:40:28.959 --> 02:40:31.440 a culted language that he was building an atomic bomb 2288 02:40:31.520 --> 02:40:38.239 quite literally, and he he see He later said Bored 2289 02:40:38.399 --> 02:40:43.639 that he was deeply shocked this. I believe Borr basically 2290 02:40:44.879 --> 02:40:48.200 told all of his intimates within kind of the small 2291 02:40:48.239 --> 02:40:53.680 fraternity of European physicists that you know, Heisenberg came to 2292 02:40:53.719 --> 02:40:56.399 see me and the Reich is building a bomb, okay, 2293 02:40:56.719 --> 02:40:58.440 And I think that's when the kind of myth of 2294 02:40:58.479 --> 02:41:01.120 the German atomic bomb program really kind of took off 2295 02:41:01.159 --> 02:41:04.360 in earnest, not in a propaganic capacity. I think people 2296 02:41:04.360 --> 02:41:06.920 actually believe this, and I think Bora actually believed this too. 2297 02:41:08.280 --> 02:41:11.040 But even if that were true, and I'm gonna wrap 2298 02:41:11.120 --> 02:41:17.040 up here in a moment, but as fall became winter 2299 02:41:17.120 --> 02:41:21.319 in nineteen forty one, the Wehrmacht was stopped dead its 2300 02:41:21.440 --> 02:41:24.479 tracks at the gates of Moscow, you know, and as 2301 02:41:24.520 --> 02:41:29.959 we talked about many times in our series, you know, 2302 02:41:30.120 --> 02:41:33.319 the right the Soviet Union had to fall in December, 2303 02:41:34.360 --> 02:41:38.799 you know, the the entire German state, it's national economics, 2304 02:41:38.879 --> 02:41:47.920 everything about it was configured towards quote short wars with 2305 02:41:48.040 --> 02:41:50.760 long respites, you know. Like That's why I always emphasized 2306 02:41:50.799 --> 02:41:53.239 that the Third Reich was not some like mirror the 2307 02:41:53.319 --> 02:41:56.079 Soviet Union. It was not mobilized for war from the 2308 02:41:56.159 --> 02:41:59.159 top down. It did not even have a wartime mobilization 2309 02:41:59.319 --> 02:42:02.760 scheme on play, you know, until Lany forty three. You know, 2310 02:42:04.319 --> 02:42:07.920 this was uh the fact that, uh, the assault on 2311 02:42:08.040 --> 02:42:12.639 Moscow failed. I mean, this was a disaster, Like ultimately 2312 02:42:12.680 --> 02:42:20.479 this cost the war. But immediately, uh, in December forty one, 2313 02:42:21.600 --> 02:42:23.879 Hitler issued the edicts that the need to the German 2314 02:42:23.959 --> 02:42:26.200 national economy or to give way to the necessities the 2315 02:42:26.319 --> 02:42:34.840 arment's economy, and that meant that, you know, uh, Fritz 2316 02:42:34.920 --> 02:42:37.719 Toad on December third, and for those who don't know, 2317 02:42:37.799 --> 02:42:41.959 Fritz Toad was the Albert Spear succeeded Fritz Toad as 2318 02:42:42.120 --> 02:42:47.959 Armaments and Munitions Minister after Toad was killed. Toads informed 2319 02:42:48.079 --> 02:42:50.920 Hitler that the economy was literally at the breaking point, 2320 02:42:51.719 --> 02:42:55.760 and from then on, any expansion in one sector to 2321 02:42:55.920 --> 02:42:58.319 meet military necessities had to be balanced by, you know, 2322 02:42:58.399 --> 02:43:05.879 reduction in another. You knows, Hitler drafted a decree essentially 2323 02:43:06.000 --> 02:43:14.040 with like Toast's uh input as to uh, you know 2324 02:43:14.120 --> 02:43:16.440 what what this would entail, you know, and essentially like 2325 02:43:16.559 --> 02:43:21.680 shedding all like non essential projects from like any firms 2326 02:43:21.760 --> 02:43:25.760 or institutions like engaged in applied research of a non 2327 02:43:25.799 --> 02:43:28.719 military nature. Like essentially like that was over. You know, 2328 02:43:29.079 --> 02:43:39.360 it's uh. Professor Schumann, one of the Genda conference attendees. 2329 02:43:41.840 --> 02:43:45.959 He drafted an open letter to all institutes working in 2330 02:43:46.000 --> 02:43:48.799 the arene In project, and he said, he said to 2331 02:43:48.879 --> 02:43:51.479 no one certain terms that the quote, the work and 2332 02:43:51.520 --> 02:43:54.200 the project undertaken by the research group is making demands 2333 02:43:54.239 --> 02:43:56.200 which can be justified in the current recruiting and raw 2334 02:43:56.239 --> 02:43:58.680 materials crisis only if there's a certainty of getting some 2335 02:43:58.799 --> 02:44:01.319 benefit from it in the near few. Sure, you know, 2336 02:44:01.479 --> 02:44:06.159 and that uh and that uh and that that was 2337 02:44:06.239 --> 02:44:12.360 that man, it's we can there's more to the story 2338 02:44:12.399 --> 02:44:14.840 of the Virus House. As the war went on, and 2339 02:44:15.159 --> 02:44:21.200 particularly as you know the tide truly turned, I mean 2340 02:44:21.239 --> 02:44:24.280 and seek was no longer a possibility after December forty one, 2341 02:44:24.399 --> 02:44:29.680 but after Stalingrad, you know, it can there's obviously like 2342 02:44:29.680 --> 02:44:32.200 an opening a new questions like why did the Iranian 2343 02:44:32.239 --> 02:44:38.200 project continue? But that oh do uh? That oh do 2344 02:44:38.280 --> 02:44:43.079 I that old kind of the nature of of modern 2345 02:44:43.559 --> 02:44:47.200 modern bureaucracy, particularly in a state of total war, you know, 2346 02:44:47.319 --> 02:44:50.040 like these things that are earmarked for funding of a 2347 02:44:50.079 --> 02:44:52.360 way even an emergency was kind of continuing to go on, 2348 02:44:53.319 --> 02:44:59.000 you know, were there were there's some people too, like 2349 02:44:59.120 --> 02:45:02.399 within that's just the research group, but within the military 2350 02:45:02.520 --> 02:45:05.760 establishment who had who did understand the implications of this 2351 02:45:05.879 --> 02:45:08.200 uranium research and did think that there was potential for 2352 02:45:08.280 --> 02:45:12.120 a real viable device to be cultivated from it, you know, 2353 02:45:12.239 --> 02:45:14.200 in a way that could like help Germany. Yeah, I 2354 02:45:14.200 --> 02:45:19.440 think there were. David Ermi certainly seemed to think there were. 2355 02:45:20.719 --> 02:45:23.639 We get into some of that next episode, and I promise, 2356 02:45:23.719 --> 02:45:26.959 I I'll wrap it up. But there's just a lot here, man, 2357 02:45:27.200 --> 02:45:29.840 you know, and like, uh, I think, uh, I think 2358 02:45:29.840 --> 02:45:34.079 the entire story needs to be told. But yeah, that's 2359 02:45:34.120 --> 02:45:36.200 a I'm getting uncomfortable with form, like sitting for this 2360 02:45:36.399 --> 02:45:39.680 hour rightly, and I don't want to bore people at death. 2361 02:45:39.760 --> 02:45:42.600 But yeah, well we'll take this up for a part 2362 02:45:42.680 --> 02:45:45.399 four and I'll I'll wrap it up then, I promise. 2363 02:45:46.159 --> 02:45:47.520 Yeah, I don't think it's boring. 2364 02:45:47.559 --> 02:45:49.079 I think people are getting a lot out of this, 2365 02:45:49.319 --> 02:45:52.399 So yeah, we'll do we'll do wrap it up with 2366 02:45:52.440 --> 02:45:59.280 part Yeah, but do plugs real quick and we'll get it. 2367 02:45:59.440 --> 02:45:59.959 We'll get out of it. 2368 02:46:00.040 --> 02:46:05.680 Yeah. Yeah. You can find me on Twitter still or 2369 02:46:06.040 --> 02:46:10.399 X rather. I hate all like porny that scenes like 2370 02:46:10.399 --> 02:46:11.719 I don't like I don't like I was like I 2371 02:46:11.840 --> 02:46:13.920 was on my phone like on the fucking train. It 2372 02:46:14.040 --> 02:46:15.280 was like some chick next to me and like you 2373 02:46:15.319 --> 02:46:16.959 only over the abs gonna be X. It's like, man, 2374 02:46:17.000 --> 02:46:20.120 I don't that just looks fucking I just don't like it. 2375 02:46:20.239 --> 02:46:25.440 But it's a real capital R E A L underscore 2376 02:46:25.680 --> 02:46:29.520 number seven h one e S seven seven seven on 2377 02:46:30.399 --> 02:46:34.639 on bird app or x app or whatever. The whole 2378 02:46:34.680 --> 02:46:37.000 of my podcast and some of my like longer form 2379 02:46:37.079 --> 02:46:41.079 stuff is on substack. That's the prime, primary place to 2380 02:46:41.159 --> 02:46:44.479 hit me up. And it's a real Thomas seven seven 2381 02:46:44.559 --> 02:46:47.840 seven dot substick dot com. You can find my website, 2382 02:46:47.879 --> 02:46:51.239 which is still under construction, but there's stuff there. It's uh, 2383 02:46:51.760 --> 02:46:54.520 just Thomas seven seven seven dot com number seven H 2384 02:46:54.520 --> 02:46:58.239 one E S seven seven seven dot com. My YouTube 2385 02:46:58.319 --> 02:47:00.840 channel is Thomas TV. I'm leaving for Utah on a 2386 02:47:00.879 --> 02:47:03.760 few days. Issue dedicated content for it, which I'm excited about. 2387 02:47:04.520 --> 02:47:06.920 As time goes on, we're gonna do more with that. 2388 02:47:07.159 --> 02:47:09.319 But I got a lot going on right now. I'll 2389 02:47:09.319 --> 02:47:12.440 be dropping more long form like books like in the spring. 2390 02:47:14.440 --> 02:47:17.319 You know, Season two of the pod is coming up 2391 02:47:17.360 --> 02:47:21.159 in September. Yeah, all kinds of stuff. 2392 02:47:21.200 --> 02:47:24.600 Man, I appreciate it. Safe travels until the next time