Speaker 1: Hello, It is Ryan and I was on a flight
Speaker 1: the other day playing one of my favorite social spin
Speaker 1: slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at
Speaker 1: the person sitting next to me, and you know what
Speaker 1: they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence,
Speaker 1: I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa
Speaker 1: Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can
Speaker 1: play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet.
Speaker 1: So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to
Speaker 1: claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com
Speaker 1: and live the Chumba lne No necessary dvoid whereab By
Speaker 1: lost in terms of conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 2: With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Speaker 3: Really, beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen
Speaker 3: the bride and groom?
Speaker 4: Sorry?
Speaker 3: Sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo
Speaker 3: when we lost track of time.
Speaker 1: No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up
Speaker 1: quicker than a guess registered.
Speaker 3: But in that case, I pronounce you lucky.
Speaker 2: Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Daily bonuses
Speaker 2: are waiting. No purchase necessary BOID. We're prohibited by Way
Speaker 2: eighteen plus terms and conditions applaing. See website for.
Speaker 4: Block tad.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week,
Speaker 5: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening, new from the
Speaker 5: author of the Wild Blue Press classics, The Trail of
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy and the Bundy Secrets. Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries
Speaker 5: is a deep dive into the archival record of America's
Speaker 5: most notorious serial killer. It's a veritable gold mine of
Speaker 5: information on Bundy, his victims, and this very voluminous case.
Speaker 5: Written by the foremost authority on Ted Bundy, this latest
Speaker 5: examination of his brutal serial killer contains new, revealing and
Speaker 5: never before published interviews with those close to Bundy, close
Speaker 5: to his victims, and a potential victim who barely escaped
Speaker 5: his clutches. Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries brings to light for
Speaker 5: the first time many heretofore passed over facts about Bundy
Speaker 5: and reveals previously hidden aspects of the lives of some
Speaker 5: of his victims. The book they were featuring this evening
Speaker 5: is Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries The Many Victims of America's
Speaker 5: most infamous serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and
Speaker 5: author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 5: you very much for this interview. Kevin Sullivan, Hey, Dan,
Speaker 5: how are you doing.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me back. It's always
Speaker 4: good you show.
Speaker 6: It's always great to have you, especially when we're talking
Speaker 6: about Bundy, and in light of all the hoopla and
Speaker 6: a stereover Bundy, especially now, and we've seen people are
Speaker 6: fans of true crime have obviously seen you on some
Speaker 6: of the documentaries that have appeared recently. So you are,
Speaker 6: as we mentioned in the interview, this is you are
Speaker 6: the resident expert on Ted Bundy. Let's talk about the
Speaker 6: previous books that that you have written. Could you please
Speaker 6: mention the the four This is the fourth uh Ted
Speaker 6: Bundy books, So can you mention the previous three books? Please?
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, excuse me, My first book was called The
Speaker 4: Bundy Murders of Comprehensive History. And I've said this allten
Speaker 4: I never had any intention about you know where I
Speaker 4: need anything about Ted Bundy. But back in two thousand
Speaker 4: and five, I met through a mutual friend, Jerry Thompson,
Speaker 4: and Jerry was the retired with the retired homicide investigator
Speaker 4: out of Salt Lake City, Utah. By the way, sad
Speaker 4: news out of Utah. Jerry passed away yesterday, and so
Speaker 4: that was sad to hear that. Yeah, but he and
Speaker 4: Bob Hayward, the arresting officer of Ted Bundy, died a
Speaker 4: few months ago and his wife died yesterday. So yeah,
Speaker 4: But anyway, but I never had any intention of it.
Speaker 4: But a local friend of mine here in Louisville, Jim Massey,
Speaker 4: has known Jerry Thompson for years, and so I was
Speaker 4: invited to meet him and his wife when they came
Speaker 4: to Louisville for I guess we had dinner. Yeah, And
Speaker 4: so anyway, it was very interesting because I knew meeting
Speaker 4: Jerry was going to be a lot of fun, and
Speaker 4: I thought maybe I might write an article about my
Speaker 4: meeting with him, but he brought that that murder kit
Speaker 4: that Bundy carried uh and Jerry's had had the kit
Speaker 4: in his possession for years, and he brought that to Louisville,
Speaker 4: and just I was able to take that to my home,
Speaker 4: photograph and do all that stuff. It was just very interesting.
Speaker 4: And before Jerry left, he gave me, and he gave
Speaker 4: my friend Jim, one of the glad trash bags that
Speaker 4: Bundy carried in his murder kit. What Bundy would use
Speaker 4: these trash bags for would be to put the victim's
Speaker 4: clothes in them. And because he always left them naked,
Speaker 4: with only like maybe a beaded necklace if they were
Speaker 4: wearing that, but all the clothes would go into these
Speaker 4: bags and they he might dump that bag one hundred
Speaker 4: miles down the road in some dumpster or a goodwill
Speaker 4: or something like that. So having that in my house
Speaker 4: and be, you know, given that bag, it just was
Speaker 4: so surreal. I started really diving into the life of
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy, and I decided I'm gonna I'm gonna go
Speaker 4: ahead and and write a book about it. So that
Speaker 4: book was The Bundy Murders, A Comprehensive History. It's coming
Speaker 4: up on its tenth year anniversary. It was released in
Speaker 4: August of two thousand and nine, and it's been a
Speaker 4: good seller. And it was the only book that I
Speaker 4: ever thought I would ever write about Bundy. But in
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen I started learning of some people that were
Speaker 4: either passing away or having significant problems, and I thought,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe I always visit the case and do
Speaker 4: what it's called the companion volume. And I did that,
Speaker 4: and in twenty sixteen my second book on Bundy, the
Speaker 4: Companion Volume, was The Trayal of Dead Bundy, digging up
Speaker 4: the untold stories, and that also conveined, just like the
Speaker 4: first book, a lot of new information that had never
Speaker 4: been published before. And I forgot to mention that about
Speaker 4: the Bundy murder because there was a number of new
Speaker 4: things about the murders that came out with my first book,
Speaker 4: The Bundy Murders, and a lot of new information in
Speaker 4: general about the case. Well, some really great things happened
Speaker 4: for The Trail of Ted Bundy. A lot of interviews
Speaker 4: came in, people were contacting me. They're valid Bundy contacts,
Speaker 4: and so all that new information went into that book.
Speaker 4: In twenty seventeen, I followed it up with another book
Speaker 4: because people kept coming to me that I didn't know
Speaker 4: that we're associated with the case in one way or another.
Speaker 4: And after I vetted them, then I had a bunch
Speaker 4: of more people to interview, and so in twenty seventeen
Speaker 4: I released The Bundye Secrets and the Bundee Secrets Hidden
Speaker 4: Files on America's Worst serial Killer had to do with
Speaker 4: not just these interviews, but a republication of many of
Speaker 4: these interesting case files that I've used for research for years,
Speaker 4: along with commentary from me. This new book is just
Speaker 4: about the same, but I never repeat information in any
Speaker 4: of my books. It's always new. I've done the same
Speaker 4: thing here with this new book that Bundy's Murderous Mysteries,
Speaker 4: and it's another republication of very interesting parts of directors
Speaker 4: with commentary from me, and another chapter of brand new
Speaker 4: interviews of people, most of them have never been interviewed before.
Speaker 4: And I found something interesting that happened for this last book,
Speaker 4: because I've got such a large case file, probably up
Speaker 4: to maybe ten thousand pages of the things about Bundy,
Speaker 4: all from various aspects of the case. And I didn't
Speaker 4: realize this, but for this last book, I ran across
Speaker 4: several pages that were misfiled years ago and put in
Speaker 4: a stack that I capped but wasn't supposed to be used,
Speaker 4: and they contained some unbelievably good information about Bundy and
Speaker 4: it being published for the first time. I would have
Speaker 4: used it in the Bundy Merse, but I misfiled it,
Speaker 4: and so it's interesting. So that's that information is in
Speaker 4: there now. And the information that's in there about these
Speaker 4: missing pages has to do with an interview of a
Speaker 4: guy named Charles Shearer who said that he and Bundy
Speaker 4: and Buddy was over at his apartment and it was
Speaker 4: Charles's wife and Bundy and they were all drinking and
Speaker 4: at some point Bundy kind of blurted out that the
Speaker 4: police are are looking for him or looking for his
Speaker 4: car because of the abduction of three girls. And he
Speaker 4: came out and said he abducted the three girls. And
Speaker 4: when Shearer asked him, what did you say, the repeat
Speaker 4: that he refused to answer. And so that's really that's astounding,
Speaker 4: and so that that story is in the book. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it's this is the fourth book, and I can break
Speaker 4: it to everybody here. I think this is a good
Speaker 4: place to do it on your show. Every time I
Speaker 4: publish a book, I take about a week. I think
Speaker 4: about a week and I just asking it and I've
Speaker 4: gotten my commented complimentary copies from the publisher, and I
Speaker 4: might read it, I'll post about it on social media,
Speaker 4: and I'll really just kind of enjoy myself. And I'm
Speaker 4: just taking about a week's break. Well, I had a
Speaker 4: guy contact to me the day after my book came out,
Speaker 4: and he asked me something about have you ever considered
Speaker 4: about writing about Ted Bundy from like this other angle
Speaker 4: I'm doing a book? And I said, well, no, but
Speaker 4: that does sound interesting, and I thought I'm not going
Speaker 4: to be doing this, so I said, well, I'll I'll
Speaker 4: lay it aside and if I ever want to do
Speaker 4: something about it, I'll let you know. But I don't
Speaker 4: really think I'm interested. But it's a good idea. Well,
Speaker 4: over the next several days, I got to thinking about
Speaker 4: it and I called my publisher or I contacted my publisher,
Speaker 4: and they loved the idea. So I'm already deep into
Speaker 4: the fifth book about Bundy. I can't say the approach
Speaker 4: or the angle now, but it's really going to be good.
Speaker 4: And here I've written a fifth book, and from a
Speaker 4: guy I never had any intention of writing any books
Speaker 4: about that Bundy. It's a little interesting, I guess you could.
Speaker 6: Say, absolutely absolutely, And thanks for that announcement here, so
Speaker 6: people know even more to look forward to for the
Speaker 6: voracious appetite of Bundy fans and people interested in Bundy,
Speaker 6: all things Bundy. Let's get to murderous mysteries here. You
Speaker 6: talk about people that are familiar with this case, Delinda
Speaker 6: and Healey January thirty first, nineteen seventy four. Tell us
Speaker 6: what you found out from these files, these case files
Speaker 6: that you used it researched and did this book from,
Speaker 6: but also the witnesses and what they saw and what
Speaker 6: is it about these files. It's very intimate, but tell
Speaker 6: us give us the details of what you find about
Speaker 6: Linda and Healy.
Speaker 4: Well, for most people will never see the case files
Speaker 4: of any particular case. When you're writing in narrative nonfiction,
Speaker 4: what you'll do, like, for instance, when I wrote the
Speaker 4: Bunny Merse, I have a lot of information. I'm writing
Speaker 4: it in my own voice, and occasionally I'll stop and
Speaker 4: quote maybe a small package from the record or what
Speaker 4: somebody said. But I'm really telling this story from my
Speaker 4: point of view because I've digested the material and I'm
Speaker 4: giving it back out on the printed page. But I remember,
Speaker 4: as I was researching and writing The Bundy Merse, I
Speaker 4: kept thinking, these these case files are so fascinating because
Speaker 4: even though you can't reproduce case files in large numbers
Speaker 4: in narrative nonfiction, because in a case like that, if
Speaker 4: you did that, you'd have a lot of facts but
Speaker 4: no real co easy story, so you can't really replicate
Speaker 4: them there. But you can have a book of case
Speaker 4: file material. And other writers have done it, you know,
Speaker 4: over the years. There's a book out there now with
Speaker 4: Jack the Ripper, and you've got all those court testimonies
Speaker 4: and stuff, and it's fascinating to read, and all these
Speaker 4: questions and answers and depositions. It's just interesting. So there's
Speaker 4: a place for that. So I remember, as I was,
Speaker 4: you know, you know, writing The Bunny Burse, I thought, man,
Speaker 4: this stuff is so fascinating. I know I'll never be
Speaker 4: able to do it, but it wouldn't it be great
Speaker 4: if if I could put together a book of just
Speaker 4: case files. And I thought, well, it's just never going
Speaker 4: to happen, but I'd like to put people to be
Speaker 4: able to see what the detectives saw, and this stuff
Speaker 4: was very classified then and it was all for in
Speaker 4: house use and what they saw on a daily basis
Speaker 4: as information was added, So I think there's a for that.
Speaker 4: So when I did The Bundy Secrets and then this
Speaker 4: last book did Buddies, Murs Mysteries, you know, it's that way,
Speaker 4: and I had commentaries. So if you're looking back, like,
Speaker 4: for example, you read my books on the Linda and healely,
Speaker 4: you're getting the full story. However, if you look yeah,
Speaker 4: because in fact I've talked about Healey, not just in
Speaker 4: The Bundy Murders, where the full story is. But I'll
Speaker 4: touch upon other books, but I won't repeat the information,
Speaker 4: but I'll bring out new information about that in my
Speaker 4: other books. Well, for those who are reading either The
Speaker 4: Bundie Secrets or this new book, they're able to see
Speaker 4: the case files directly from the detectives that they were
Speaker 4: using in the house, and within that they would take
Speaker 4: statements from everybody involved. Or so in the case of
Speaker 4: Linda and Ealy, you've got her three or four other
Speaker 4: housemates that came in and were interviewed by the detectives,
Speaker 4: and very often the statements of people are rather long
Speaker 4: and so in these two books where I've done this,
Speaker 4: people can actually see word for word what these people
Speaker 4: were asked by the detectives and how they responded. And
Speaker 4: it's a fascinating look, not just in the police work
Speaker 4: in general and how they obtained this information, but how
Speaker 4: the information flows out of the people who are reliving
Speaker 4: what has happened and trying to give it back in
Speaker 4: a proper order. So it's fascinating stuff. And like I say,
Speaker 4: you've got all these testimonies from the women that lived
Speaker 4: with Linda an Eally and you know what occurred that night.
Speaker 4: So it's a very very interesting thing to be able
Speaker 4: to see these case styles and go over them.
Speaker 6: What was in just I know, because we can't go
Speaker 6: over every single thing to send this book, But what
Speaker 6: about Linda and what little titbit was I think stood
Speaker 6: out that that you didn't write about before, and people,
Speaker 6: especially big fans of this Ted Bundy, wouldn't know.
Speaker 4: Well, now, there's various aspects. If you look at what
Speaker 4: if you look at how I wrote, you could really
Speaker 4: go down a number of areas there. If you look
Speaker 4: at what I wrote in the Bundy Mursy, when you
Speaker 4: follow the story you can see as you read through
Speaker 4: it there's information there and I'm telling it. However, if
Speaker 4: you very often, and I do this myself when I'm
Speaker 4: reading a book, I'll think, Oh, I wonder what else
Speaker 4: occurred beyond that? So I wouldn't know what to say
Speaker 4: with any one thing. If you're thinking about any one
Speaker 4: particular thing, I'd be happy to comment on it. But
Speaker 4: these reports are so voluminous that when you look at
Speaker 4: how I wrote it in the Bundy murders, you could say, Oh,
Speaker 4: I wonder if anything else happened here? Did she comment
Speaker 4: on this? You know how questions pop up in people's
Speaker 4: mouths if you've got something that you're thinking of in particular.
Speaker 4: Oh you know, I mean, I'll just go ahead and
Speaker 4: comment on it.
Speaker 6: When you talk about the uh, these witnesses, Yes, it
Speaker 6: came forward. What what was the testimony? What what did
Speaker 6: the police indicate from that testimony that people might be
Speaker 6: surprised about? From anything from the miss pillowcase to the
Speaker 6: bed made perfect?
Speaker 3: Judy was boring.
Speaker 7: Hello, then Judy discovered chumpbu casino dot com.
Speaker 4: It's my little escape.
Speaker 3: Now Judy is the life of the party. Oh baby
Speaker 3: Mama is bringing home the Bacon whoa take it easy, Judy.
Speaker 3: The Chumba life is from everybody.
Speaker 7: So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one
Speaker 7: hundred casino style games doing today and play for free
Speaker 7: for your chance to redeem some serious prices. Jump a
Speaker 7: casino dot com plus turn the condition to play details.
Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting that what I'm about to say is
Speaker 4: not unusual. And I covered this in in my first book.
Speaker 4: But when the police came into the house that night,
Speaker 4: I mean, you have to understand she disappeared in the
Speaker 4: early morning. How was the thing refirst and it was,
Speaker 4: you know, and and it was the middle of the night.
Speaker 4: When the girls woke up the next morning when the
Speaker 4: alarm was going off, she hadn't turned it off. They
Speaker 4: thought she was sleeping. It not happening. They don't know
Speaker 4: what's happened to her. They leave, they're gone for the day.
Speaker 4: They're hoping she'll show up. They're at school. They all
Speaker 4: come home that night, and that's when the fear really
Speaker 4: starts to build. So you've got a very strange case
Speaker 4: that particular night that they came back and Linda was
Speaker 4: still gone. Linda was supposed to be there preparing dinner
Speaker 4: for her boyfriend and her mother and father, and I
Speaker 4: guess I think her brother was supposed to be there
Speaker 4: as well, but she's she's nowhere to be found. So
Speaker 4: the father and brothers show up, and then this and
Speaker 4: then the father calls the mom, uh missus heally and says, well,
Speaker 4: don't come over because she's not here, and she says,
Speaker 4: have you call the police? And you know, he said no,
Speaker 4: but I think we'll wait a bit. You know, that's
Speaker 4: that's just the natures sometimes of parents that this dad
Speaker 4: is so concerned, but he's not wanting to jump the
Speaker 4: gun on the police, hoping for the best. And she
Speaker 4: said no, and she she gets up the phone from
Speaker 4: him and she calls the cops. Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 4: The police come over and it's it's a couple of men,
Speaker 4: you know, they're not detectives, but they're patrol officers. They
Speaker 4: come in and they do the usual thing, and they're
Speaker 4: they're getting the name of the missing person, information about
Speaker 4: the people, relatives, names, all that stuff. And they do
Speaker 4: look around, but they weren't sure whether foul play was
Speaker 4: involved in this or not. When the detective comes later
Speaker 4: that night, and I can't remember I think it was
Speaker 4: around midnight, might have been maybe around eleven o'clock. He
Speaker 4: comes in there and he goes in there, right into
Speaker 4: the room and he starts to do his work. And
Speaker 4: what they find in Linda's room is really a strange thing.
Speaker 4: The girls had already discovered that not only was the
Speaker 4: bed maid, it was made in almost like a military fashion.
Speaker 4: And Linda never made her bed during the week because
Speaker 4: she had to get up so early to go to
Speaker 4: the radio station. She was a ski announcer at a
Speaker 4: local radio station in Seattle, had to be there by
Speaker 4: like sixth thirty, so she didn't make her bed at
Speaker 4: all during the week, and when she did, it never
Speaker 4: looked like that. There was blood on the bed. There
Speaker 4: was blood on the pillowcase, and the pillow case was removed,
Speaker 4: but there was blood there. Now it wasn't blood spatter
Speaker 4: as if she were beaten, and Bundy would say later
Speaker 4: that she was choked into unconsciousness even though she was asleep.
Speaker 4: She woke up, but he choked her into unconsciousness and
Speaker 4: they breed in a nose bleed, and the blood that
Speaker 4: they found is consistent with that because it wasn't in
Speaker 4: a spatter pattern. Well, buddy takes this, this thing off
Speaker 4: of her ninety, hangs it up in the closet, makes
Speaker 4: the bed. I don't know, they're not sure if he
Speaker 4: were wraps her up in a blanket, but he either
Speaker 4: lays her on the floor or puts her in a chair.
Speaker 4: She's unconscious, she's bleeding from the nose. And he makes
Speaker 4: the bed, and he grabs a backpack and takes him clothes.
Speaker 4: Now he may be setting up the scene to look
Speaker 4: like she somewhere. So the police weren't quite sure whether
Speaker 4: or not this was a volitional leading on her part
Speaker 4: or something that speaks of foul play. So it was really,
Speaker 4: you know, they just weren't sure. But when the police
Speaker 4: started to determine the real facts behind this, that Linda
Speaker 4: would not have left and this happened over a number
Speaker 4: of days, that this would not have that she would
Speaker 4: not have left the premises her parents were going to
Speaker 4: come over. She was doing five the night before. There
Speaker 4: was nothing. This was so out out of character. So
Speaker 4: this is one of the things I say about this abduction.
Speaker 4: It's a very surreal and strange abduction, and it's one
Speaker 4: that just one of the surreal type of abductions that
Speaker 4: Bundy would commit, the kind of things that you don't
Speaker 4: hear from usually, even from abductors. He just did these wild,
Speaker 4: outlandish types of abduction. So it was kind of a
Speaker 4: slow process for the cops to come to the conclusion
Speaker 4: that bal play was involved, and of course it was.
Speaker 6: You write about another abduction, George N. Hawkins, and you
Speaker 6: talk about a interview or a telephone interview with him,
Speaker 6: a person named Dwyane Kobe. Huh, it's very interesting what
Speaker 6: you did learn from Dwayne Kobe. And then again, putting
Speaker 6: together with everything else, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: this abduction and murder and Dwayne COBE's rule.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what he had to say. Yeah, in fact, it's
Speaker 4: it's Dwayne Covey. I called him Covie for years until
Speaker 4: until a lady knew him said it was back to Covey.
Speaker 4: But it looks like it felt like Kobe. So I'm
Speaker 4: glad that finally told me it's Covey. But it looks
Speaker 4: like anyway, I had contacted Dwayne because he was What
Speaker 4: happened was on the night that George N. Disappeared in
Speaker 4: here again, And of course I've been all over this
Speaker 4: area and you can see how exactly it transpired. On
Speaker 4: seventeenth Street in the Seattle near the school. They have
Speaker 4: just blocks from the school, a couple of blocks that's
Speaker 4: called Greek Row, got fraternity and sority auses. Well, the
Speaker 4: back alley is the kids are going up and down
Speaker 4: that all hours of the night and they're just it's
Speaker 4: just a busy area. On the night that George and disappeared,
Speaker 4: she was well aware of women disappearing in the area.
Speaker 4: She was concerned about it. She was studying for a
Speaker 4: Spanish test. She broke away from its studies at some
Speaker 4: part during the early evening and she and a friend
Speaker 4: walked a couple of blocks to a frat party, just
Speaker 4: relaxed a little bit of a couple of beers. Friends.
Speaker 4: As they came back, she wanted to stop in the
Speaker 4: fraternity house on the corner and go in the back
Speaker 4: door to see her boyfriends. But she said, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: wait here and I'm gonna watch you walk down the
Speaker 4: alley because she believes in She believed in you know
Speaker 4: something being called you know, the buddy system, and people
Speaker 4: need to watch out for each other. So she watched
Speaker 4: the girl getting ready to go in. They waved at
Speaker 4: each other and talked, and the girl went in. So
Speaker 4: she goes in to her apartment, into the frat house
Speaker 4: and spends I don't know, maybe about fifteen twenty minutes
Speaker 4: or so with her boyfriend. And she's coming out the
Speaker 4: back door. The back door you know, makes that normal
Speaker 4: slamming noise or whatever, the screen door, whatever, And Dwayne
Speaker 4: Covey is right above there, his room and his window
Speaker 4: was open and he was I think he was studying.
Speaker 4: And Dwayne he pokes his head out the window and
Speaker 4: he sees Georgia Anne and they know each other.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 4: Unbeknownst to Duane or George Anne, Bundy is down the alley.
Speaker 4: He's been hunting that area for a while, not just
Speaker 4: the alley, but on the main street on seventeenth and Crossing,
Speaker 4: and Bundy had put on a fake lay cast and
Speaker 4: he was hobbling on crutches and carrying a briefcase. Well,
Speaker 4: when Bundy sees this conversation going on, he stands back.
Speaker 4: He's back, oh, I don't know, maybe fifty feet excuse me,
Speaker 4: and he's watching this and it could even be a
Speaker 4: little bit further than that, but he can see clearly
Speaker 4: this is a young woman speaking with somebody up who's
Speaker 4: booking her out the window, and so coming in, you know, Georgia,
Speaker 4: and they talk a minute and just kind of shoot
Speaker 4: the breeze. She said she's going back home to study
Speaker 4: for her Spanish test, and then uh so, and then
Speaker 4: they said goodbye like in Spanish, and they were just,
Speaker 4: you know, just talking and having a nice time. And
Speaker 4: so Kobe does a natural thing. He goes back to
Speaker 4: the his gask or whatever he's doing his room, and
Speaker 4: George Anne is then walking away the short distance to
Speaker 4: her thank well, she encounters you know Bundy, and Bundy,
Speaker 4: you know, he's he was a nice looking guy, dressed well, articulate,
Speaker 4: and he looked like he was someone in real need,
Speaker 4: hobbling on these crutches, trying to hold on to a briefcase.
Speaker 4: So what's the kind older the kind are George Ann's
Speaker 4: supposed to do? He he asked for help, and she
Speaker 4: agreed to it. And I say in the my book,
Speaker 4: my first book, the Bunny burd said it for some reason,
Speaker 4: if Dwayne would have come back to the window about
Speaker 4: you know, like a minute later, he would have seen
Speaker 4: George Anne cross below the window with this gulls crutches,
Speaker 4: but he wasn't there, and of course Bundy took her
Speaker 4: straight down, and that's on the corner. Right there after
Speaker 4: they passed under Dwayne's window, and then they took a right,
Speaker 4: and then they went up to the seventeenth turn, the left,
Speaker 4: walk down about a block or so, turned left into
Speaker 4: an unpaved parking lot that was rather dark where his
Speaker 4: Volkswagen was parked. And then of course he had already
Speaker 4: placed the crow bar behind the I called it the
Speaker 4: right rear tire. Some people think, I mean, if you're
Speaker 4: a stand of the car, it's the driver's side, but no,
Speaker 4: I mean I'm viewing it from the inside. It's the
Speaker 4: passenger side. As you're driving a car, the right is
Speaker 4: the passenger. Well, he put it a crowbar between the
Speaker 4: passenger side the right rear tire on the passenger side
Speaker 4: as George Anne is helping him. And Bundy would use
Speaker 4: this rouse with other people and try to get women
Speaker 4: to like take the stuff and like, for instance, he
Speaker 4: might handle the crutch and she put them in the
Speaker 4: car while he's doing that. And he did this with
Speaker 4: George Ann. He grabbed the crowbar and hit her. I
Speaker 4: mean he hit this this woman with such bores that
Speaker 4: she came out of one of her shoes and both
Speaker 4: her earrings, you know, flew off. But then once she
Speaker 4: was out into the car, she went, well, you know,
Speaker 4: George Anne. And of course in the next day he
Speaker 4: had to come back on a bicycle. And you see
Speaker 4: if you watch any of the news of the film footage,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of film footage in that alley. The
Speaker 4: very next day, it's a beautiful day, you know, blue skies,
Speaker 4: and the cops are there and the news crew crews
Speaker 4: are there interviewing people. And at some point Bundy is
Speaker 4: riding a bicycle through and noboy's gonna pay attention to him.
Speaker 4: And he doesn't stop there. He goes down to the
Speaker 4: block around, you know about like a block block and
Speaker 4: a half turns into that alley, finds the earrings, finds
Speaker 4: the shoe of the clock, and off he goes. Well, incredible.
Speaker 4: George Ann was a really sweet girl, well liked and
Speaker 4: it made such an impact her death on the people
Speaker 4: that know where. And you'll find this a lot of
Speaker 4: times with the friends and victims, they don't like talking
Speaker 4: about those things. And my original contact with Dwayne, I
Speaker 4: had sent him a letter. I had sent him a
Speaker 4: letter asking if we could talk, and he at first
Speaker 4: never responded to it, so I sent him a second
Speaker 4: communication another weeks after that. I said, listen the way,
Speaker 4: I said, I'm sure this bothers you, so you know,
Speaker 4: we don't have to do the interview. I said, I
Speaker 4: did have just a couple quick questions. If you could
Speaker 4: possibly answer those for me, I just would appreciate it.
Speaker 4: And he told me later he said, well, your letter
Speaker 4: was so nice. I just had the response. We called
Speaker 4: me and I was sort of I didn't go onto
Speaker 4: a real detailed kind of interview. My questions were I
Speaker 4: just wanted to confirm a couple of things. I told
Speaker 4: him this because Dwayne had been interviewed by a reporter
Speaker 4: from the Seattle Times about this, and I found that
Speaker 4: original article. I have it in my gage file. There's
Speaker 4: a picture of him and her boyfriend, Georgia's boyfriend, Marvin Gladly,
Speaker 4: and there's just it was a big article. And I
Speaker 4: just asked him to if he could confirm that what
Speaker 4: he told them and the article was true. And he
Speaker 4: said it was true, and what happened was and I
Speaker 4: have heard that, you know, people have different feelings on this.
Speaker 4: That might have been somebody else lacking, I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I think it was Bundy, because Bundy kind of alluded
Speaker 4: to what I'm about to tell you in a conversation
Speaker 4: with Stephen Michau of the only you know, living witness
Speaker 4: and conversations with a killer. But anyway, if they stood
Speaker 4: there talking, they could hear laughing down the alley, occasional laughing,
Speaker 4: and they weren't talking long, but they heard it, and
Speaker 4: she turned and looked down the alley. And I think
Speaker 4: Blaine did as well, but he had reported that in
Speaker 4: the newspaper, and so I asked her about that. He said, yes,
Speaker 4: she did, you know. Oh, he might say we did,
Speaker 4: but she definitely turned her head. I first they think
Speaker 4: that's Bundy. Other people have said it was probably somebody else.
Speaker 4: I don't think so, because if you put in what
Speaker 4: happened there and what Bundy told Michau and the third
Speaker 4: person of what might have happened that night, it just
Speaker 4: makes right. It makes perfect sense. But doing the nice guy.
Speaker 4: But you know, to this day he's affected by that.
Speaker 4: And the friends, the close friends of the victims usually
Speaker 4: are like family members. They just have a hard time
Speaker 4: with it even all these years later.
Speaker 6: Excuse me, absolutely, let's use this Kevin An opportunity to
Speaker 6: stop for a second to talk about our sponsor ship Station.
Speaker 6: When you're selling online, getting your orders out can be
Speaker 6: a real pain, time consuming, expensive, so many carriers to
Speaker 6: choose from. How do you know you're making the best choice.
Speaker 6: That's why you need shipstation dot com. It's the fastest, easiest,
Speaker 6: and the most affordable way to manage and ship your orders.
Speaker 6: Ship Station helps you get orders out quickly, save money
Speaker 6: on shipping costs, and save your customers and keep your
Speaker 6: customers happy no matter what you're selling, Amazon Ets, your
Speaker 6: own website. Ship Station brings all your orders into one
Speaker 6: simple interface, making them really easy to manage from any device,
Speaker 6: even your cell phone. Ship Station works with all the
Speaker 6: major carriers, including USPS, FedEx Ups, even Amazon Fulfillment, so
Speaker 6: you can compare and choose the best shipping solution for
Speaker 6: you and your customer. They even offer big discounts on
Speaker 6: shipping costs. Now any business can access the same postage discounts.
Speaker 6: They are usually reserved for large Fortune five hundred companies.
Speaker 6: You'll always know that you're getting the best deal. No
Speaker 6: wonder ship station is the number one choice of online sellers.
Speaker 6: You'll ship more and less time with the best rates
Speaker 6: available and right now, True Murder listeners can try ship
Speaker 6: station free for sixty days when you use promo code
Speaker 6: true Murder. There's absolutely no risk. You can start your
Speaker 6: free trial without even entering your credit card info. Just
Speaker 6: visit shipstation dot com, click on the microphone at the
Speaker 6: top of the homepage and type in true Murder that's
Speaker 6: shipstation dot com. Then enter promo code true Murder shipstation
Speaker 6: dot Com. Make ship happen.
Speaker 7: Judy was boring Hello, Then judydiscovered Jumba Casino dot com.
Speaker 3: It's my little escape. Now Judy's the life of the party.
Speaker 3: Oh baby mama is bringing home the Whoa. Take it easy,
Speaker 3: Judy the Chumba life. That's for everybody.
Speaker 7: So go to Chumpacasino dot com and play over one
Speaker 7: hundred casino style games. Join today and play for free
Speaker 7: for your chance to redeem some serious prices.
Speaker 3: Jump chumpi Casino dot com.
Speaker 6: No just necessary weight.
Speaker 3: We're committed by mind plus terms and condition to play
Speaker 3: every details.
Speaker 6: Now, Kevin, let's move on to another particular case that
Speaker 6: you wrote about in this book, and that is of
Speaker 6: course it's been covered before, but there's more new, incredible
Speaker 6: information about ROBERTA. Kathleen Parks referred to as Kathy and
Speaker 6: May sixth, nineteen seventy nine encounter. She was enrolled at
Speaker 6: Oregon State University at Corvallis in May sixth, nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about what you found out
Speaker 6: about Kathyparks more new.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, sure, well I'll go back because it's so
Speaker 4: interesting that that's been a kind of gradual thing. When
Speaker 4: I was writing the Bundy Mercy course, I had all
Speaker 4: the files and she disappeared May sixth, nineteen seventy four
Speaker 4: around eleven o'clock. And Bundy Canty used to like to
Speaker 4: walk at night by herself, or she'd sometimes invite a friend,
Speaker 4: but most people turn her down. But she liked to walk,
Speaker 4: like from her place at Sacont Hall to the Memorial
Speaker 4: Union Commons catfeteria and that closed I think at eleven,
Speaker 4: so she would go earlier. But she just liked to
Speaker 4: kind of walk to campus sometimes after it was dark.
Speaker 4: And she had been invited to go in to spend
Speaker 4: some time with some people at Sacon Hall, but she
Speaker 4: decided she wanted to go walking around. Well she did,
Speaker 4: and on the way to this camfeteria, she ran into
Speaker 4: Loraene Fargum, who had been in the library studying, and
Speaker 4: they talked a while at on the corner just right
Speaker 4: across a little five street, right from the Memorial Union Commons,
Speaker 4: and they talked and and even even Laurene said, well,
Speaker 4: do you want to go? Because Katy was having a problem.
Speaker 4: You know, she loves her boyfriend, Christy McPhee, but he
Speaker 4: wanted to kind of go ahead and get married and
Speaker 4: she wasn't ready for that. So she was kind of
Speaker 4: explaining to raining the problems that she was having. And
Speaker 4: then even she said, well, come back with me and
Speaker 4: we'll talk. She said, no, I just kind of want
Speaker 4: to walk around for a while and want to go
Speaker 4: into the you you know, the cafeteria. So they said
Speaker 4: goodbye and and and that was it. Well, Bundy would
Speaker 4: later say that he in the third person. He came
Speaker 4: up and talked to her in there and condensed her
Speaker 4: to go with him. Now, a couple of interesting things
Speaker 4: occurred when I was writing the Bundy burs There was
Speaker 4: a letter that Christy had received after she disappeared. It
Speaker 4: was postmark May seventh, And because this was late on
Speaker 4: May sixth, I thought, Jeeves, I wonder if she had
Speaker 4: that letter with her, or if she had married it
Speaker 4: earlier I had mailed it earlier that day, or could
Speaker 4: it have been with her that night. I didn't know.
Speaker 4: And because Bundy was hunting, I thought, I wonder if
Speaker 4: he had been hunting at the library and it even
Speaker 4: seeing Lorraine. I just didn't know. So I kind of
Speaker 4: speculated on these things. And when after The Bunny Murrich
Speaker 4: was published a year later, Lorie Fargo got in touch
Speaker 4: with me and she confirmed to me two things. One, yes,
Speaker 4: Kathy had a letter in her aunt, and she when
Speaker 4: she when I left her, she went right across the
Speaker 4: street and dropped it in the mailbox before walking up
Speaker 4: the steps at the Memorial Union Commons to go to
Speaker 4: the cafeteria. And then Lorraine told me. Lorraine told me,
Speaker 4: she said, yes, I was at the library, and I
Speaker 4: did have a man following me there, and he was
Speaker 4: very strange and and it really bothers you. She started
Speaker 4: to get very creeped out. And I think it's quite
Speaker 4: likely it was Bundy, because he loves Onny libraries. And
Speaker 4: so she left with a bunch of people, so he
Speaker 4: couldn't follow her, and that's when she ran into Lorraine,
Speaker 4: And I said, the Bundy murders. Could he have been
Speaker 4: following Lorraine and then saw Kathy and made it? So
Speaker 4: this may very well have been how that unfolded. Well.
Speaker 4: In any event, I had when I wrote my second book,
Speaker 4: said buddy, I had Lorraine talk about that, And what
Speaker 4: I do was she and I had conversed with over
Speaker 4: phone calls and email, and so I took a lot
Speaker 4: of what she wrote me about that that was a
Speaker 4: confirmation and I put it in the book. But for
Speaker 4: this book, I wanted to do something more outside of
Speaker 4: the mentioning of letters because very often this will help
Speaker 4: people understand a victim even more and just as a person,
Speaker 4: just to see them as real people and not just victims.
Speaker 4: For this book, I put there's a number of letters
Speaker 4: that were between Kathy and you know, her boyfriend, Christy McFee,
Speaker 4: and so I have those in the book. And I
Speaker 4: felt like it was important because I want to show
Speaker 4: us much as I can about you know, the victims,
Speaker 4: and I have to say, and people have said this
Speaker 4: to me that I broke new ground in the Bunde
Speaker 4: Murders my first book by making a lot of these
Speaker 4: victims more real and having more in there about them.
Speaker 4: And that was my intention, and I was successful, and
Speaker 4: a lot of people have said, yes, that's exactly what
Speaker 4: you did. Now I felt as I was reading the book.
Speaker 4: But for this book, because it's about mostly about the
Speaker 4: victims and their testimony and the living victims of the
Speaker 4: things that changed them because of what happened, I wanted
Speaker 4: to put these letters in there. They're they're very personal,
Speaker 4: they're very honest, and they're very and very important understanding
Speaker 4: that the character of Kathy and I and those who
Speaker 4: read the book. They'll also find in there a list
Speaker 4: of things that her parents had to pick up, you know,
Speaker 4: like something like eighty books or whatever, and various items
Speaker 4: she had. And you can see from like especially the books,
Speaker 4: the things that she was interested in, which which helped
Speaker 4: paint a better picture of who she was as a person.
Speaker 4: What were those things that she enjoyed and liked reading
Speaker 4: about and liked learning about, and what were the things
Speaker 4: that fascinated her life. So that's what I wanted to
Speaker 4: do and and and uh, that's why I have so
Speaker 4: many personal things about the victims that from these case
Speaker 4: files and I've added them to this book.
Speaker 6: You talk about that personal element with her corresponding, but
Speaker 6: it led for the police to not have any idea,
Speaker 6: and of course as investigators, they had to pursue all
Speaker 6: these other leads and possibilities and certainly weren't considering Ted
Speaker 6: Bundy at that time or any other killer. So it's
Speaker 6: very fascinating to see all the work they did to
Speaker 6: look at the possibilities that she was so depressed, or
Speaker 6: that she was so frustrated, or she would do something
Speaker 6: to herself or run off, and so it's actually pretty
Speaker 6: disturbing to see how much they can go off on
Speaker 6: a detour when they're not seeing any of the facts
Speaker 6: that we now know to this day.
Speaker 4: And in fact, Lorraine told me, and of course I
Speaker 4: have this in there, but and it's in the trail
Speaker 4: of Ted Bundy's he said, when the investigators were interviewing me,
Speaker 4: I told them everything that I could tell them about Kathy,
Speaker 4: but I withheld the fact that she was not just
Speaker 4: he said. I admitted that she admitted to me that
Speaker 4: she was drinking too much, but he said, I withheld
Speaker 4: the fact that she was also using drugs. She had
Speaker 4: been smoking hashish and things like that, because I didn't
Speaker 4: want to get her in trouble, and so, you know,
Speaker 4: there was these little things that came out that where
Speaker 4: they weren't quite as truthful as with the investigators. That's
Speaker 4: why sometimes I ended up being surprised if I'm able
Speaker 4: to interview those who knew her, and I had a
Speaker 4: number of people contacted me after the publication of the
Speaker 4: Bunny Murse who knew Kathy, who would tell me things,
Speaker 4: and you know, and in every case they were very
Speaker 4: much affected by what happened, but they would also tell
Speaker 4: things that maybe the investigators didn't know about the personality
Speaker 4: of the person. And that's a fascinating thing to look back,
Speaker 4: because what you're doing when you go into something like
Speaker 4: this feeling back the layers of what a person really is.
Speaker 4: And I'm saying that in a positive sense, because we
Speaker 4: are all complex individuals as people. We all have our ups,
Speaker 4: our downs, our successes, failures where we've got to pull
Speaker 4: ourselves up by the bootstraps and go again and and
Speaker 4: and it's so true really of young people and college
Speaker 4: people because they're just beginning all this, and many people
Speaker 4: as they stabilize as adults. Things are going really much
Speaker 4: much better in their lives, but a lot of things
Speaker 4: are just hard and if they end kind of like
Speaker 4: it's the unknown for these college kids. And so it's
Speaker 4: a fascinating study into the human personality. And that's why
Speaker 4: I always like to bring out everything I can to
Speaker 4: make these people again, not just victims, but real people
Speaker 4: that people like you and I can identify with.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about Janice Ought and if I mispronounced this
Speaker 6: lake uh some Amish and.
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, it's actually in Lake Samamish, the first and
Speaker 4: a violent Yeah, Lake Samamish.
Speaker 6: I was gonna knew I was gonna butcher it. So
Speaker 6: we talk about we talk about Bundy. You write about
Speaker 6: Bundy as you do in many of these books, and
Speaker 6: of course Bundy is at different times in his life,
Speaker 6: and of course through this book we have all the
Speaker 6: various Bundy's where he's more disorganized, obviously disorganized once he's
Speaker 6: in Florida and his appearance is different. But let's talk
Speaker 6: about this beach scenario and the witnesses that that clearly
Speaker 6: see Ted's behavior, and as you mentioned, it's very interesting.
Speaker 6: I think when he talks to victims he's got this
Speaker 6: cool mannerism, smooth talker, good looking guy in this case,
Speaker 6: very well dressed. But when he approaches the victim, as
Speaker 6: you write in this, it's been known from the testimony
Speaker 6: that you have that once these people refuse or give
Speaker 6: him any kind of resistance, he knows that they are
Speaker 6: probably not an easy victim.
Speaker 4: He just says.
Speaker 6: Okay, and so that again it gives them no cause
Speaker 6: to either remember or take note of his behavior. Let's
Speaker 6: talk about his behavior on the beach that day.
Speaker 4: Sure the Lake Samamish murders, where again a surreal abduction.
Speaker 4: Two abductions, daylight abductions of two people from the same park,
Speaker 4: one in the morning Jane Thought around ten thirty eleven
Speaker 4: and then Denise Stanthlin around four four thirty pm that day.
Speaker 4: I never expect to hear of anything more bizarre than that.
Speaker 4: There was forty found people in the bark. Now, money
Speaker 4: was pretty fresh that morning. He did have a cold,
Speaker 4: he had some things going on, but you know, he
Speaker 4: knew how to pour on the charm. And you can
Speaker 4: see that as he you know, tried to get these
Speaker 4: women to go with him, and there was one woman
Speaker 4: that went with him. She actually was waiting for her
Speaker 4: husband and her kids to get there, and she went
Speaker 4: with him to help him in the parking lot to
Speaker 4: unhitch the boat or something like that. And she gets
Speaker 4: there and there's no boat, there's no trailer. He said,
Speaker 4: oh well, I said, my parents' house up in Insaquah.
Speaker 4: And she said, oh well, I'm waiting for my husband
Speaker 4: and not kids to get her or whatever. I can't.
Speaker 4: He said, I'm sorry, and so they walked back together.
Speaker 4: He said, oh, I guess I should have told you.
Speaker 4: Very congenial, you know, just just very nice. And at
Speaker 4: no time did he display anything that was could give
Speaker 4: anybody a sign if something is not quite right here.
Speaker 4: And you know, and then you know, as I say
Speaker 4: in the book, it's a numbers game. You know, people
Speaker 4: may tell you no, but somebody is going to say yes.
Speaker 4: And so when he comes up to Janison, which she's at,
Speaker 4: you know, she's sitting there, she's putting on some tandlos
Speaker 4: and she's brought some paperbacks there. You know. Uh. Janis
Speaker 4: was a probation and parole officer in Seattle. Her apartment
Speaker 4: had been robbed and she decided to get out of
Speaker 4: the city and she would and so she lived in Ittaquaus.
Speaker 4: She lived in a small apartment in its Aqua. It's
Speaker 4: about five miles from Lake Samamish, and so she would
Speaker 4: come in every day to Seattle. She just wanted to
Speaker 4: get out of, like the quote, the big city life,
Speaker 4: I guess. But she had come there all by herself.
Speaker 4: She's spend the day there and there's a there's really
Speaker 4: in amense crack out and Bundy he had. This is
Speaker 4: something people don't know. A lot of people don't. He
Speaker 4: came to the lake a week earlier, the previous Sunday,
Speaker 4: and he was either hunting, probably not likely, could have
Speaker 4: been more than anything. I think he was doing a
Speaker 4: dry run for what was going to happen next week,
Speaker 4: and he wanted to get the feel in the place
Speaker 4: with crowds there. And when he was there that day,
Speaker 4: he ran into some friends and stopped with him and
Speaker 4: had a beer. So we was seen by people he knew,
Speaker 4: So that must have been on his mind. So when
Speaker 4: he comes to the lake the next week, you know,
Speaker 4: he's dressed in white shorts and the shirt with white shirt.
Speaker 4: You know, white tennis shoes, white socks, and in fact
Speaker 4: that if you or the audience had seen a picture
Speaker 4: that has surfaced about a year or year and a
Speaker 4: half ago from Maryland, China, a friend of dead. This
Speaker 4: is where he's getting into his DW That was taken
Speaker 4: the morning that he was leaving for Utah. And he
Speaker 4: had just had breakfast with Mary Lynchino, Liz and her daughter,
Speaker 4: and he was leaving that day for Utah. What's interesting
Speaker 4: about the photograph, though, he's dressed in that photograph exactly
Speaker 4: like he was dressed on the day he was funding
Speaker 4: at Lake Samamish. But in any event, he comes to
Speaker 4: the lake, he's spotting people near Janasa. She's on the ground.
Speaker 4: There's a couple of people around her who would hear
Speaker 4: the conversations. One was a fifteen year old girl named
Speaker 4: Sylvia Valence. Her name today is Mexer And I've seen
Speaker 4: Mexra's testimony on the documentary. She's on the same one
Speaker 4: I'm on. She is speaking now about that Ted actually
Speaker 4: came up to her her and but if you look
Speaker 4: at her, and I'm not disputing that that's what you
Speaker 4: say now. But in her testimony to King County detectives,
Speaker 4: and there are two reports from her, one taken soon
Speaker 4: after that and one taken in November where there was
Speaker 4: a follow up by Bob Kepple's people. She doesn't mention
Speaker 4: any of those conversations with Bundy. Maybe she had for
Speaker 4: I don't know. I can't answer for it. I'm just
Speaker 4: saying she's talking about that now. But in the original testimony,
Speaker 4: and I have the report in my book, she says
Speaker 4: Bundy kind of went past her and talked and said
Speaker 4: and started talking with janas O. Well, Sylvia's fifteen year
Speaker 4: old kid. She overhears the conversation very well and she
Speaker 4: remembers it. And I remember I said in the Bundy murders,
Speaker 4: I said, well, you know this is this is interesting
Speaker 4: that a kid that young would be paying that much attention.
Speaker 4: And that's and that's a very that thing. So behind
Speaker 4: Sylvia and behind Janice is a DEA agent by the
Speaker 4: name of Jerry Snyder, and he's got his big dog
Speaker 4: with him and his wife's there with the kids, but
Speaker 4: they're a little bit closer down to the water, so
Speaker 4: Jerry has to stay back with the dog. So he's
Speaker 4: getting a good view of all this, as did some others.
Speaker 4: So there were more people that heard this conversation that
Speaker 4: happened with between you know, uh, Dot and Bundy, and
Speaker 4: of course Bundy was pouring on the charm. He introduced
Speaker 4: himself as Dead, she introduced herself as Jan and and
Speaker 4: so you know, she gets up and they heard the conversation.
Speaker 4: She was going to help him with the boat. Uh,
Speaker 4: he said something of my parents' house Isakuah. He wasn't
Speaker 4: going to make that mistake again, as he did a
Speaker 4: little while earlier with that other woman. She said, well,
Speaker 4: you got to promise me you'll, you know, you'll, you'll
Speaker 4: introduce me to your parents and take me a Saley.
Speaker 4: He said sure, I mean that's easy, he said, I
Speaker 4: got a buy he said, it'll fit in my trunk.
Speaker 4: And if they go, and of course she enters this
Speaker 4: like Mary's world. And as far as Cilia Valan, if
Speaker 4: she really did, if Bunny did talk to her, I
Speaker 4: don't know whether she's concerned to put that in a report.
Speaker 4: I don't think so, I don't know what happened. So
Speaker 4: if you see her on TV and she's saying that,
Speaker 4: and then if you read the reports and that's not included,
Speaker 4: I don't have any answer for that. But so you've
Speaker 4: got some additional testimony that is coming forth in a
Speaker 4: documentary which I think is very interesting. But in any event,
Speaker 4: you may see a discrepancy. But that may be. But
Speaker 4: you do have the official report from her in my book,
Speaker 4: and so is the report from Jerry Snyder, and so
Speaker 4: is the report from a number of these women. And
Speaker 4: the main thing is most of these people described ed
Speaker 4: to a t just you know that. You know, they
Speaker 4: would make little errors on maybe the color of his
Speaker 4: shirt or whatever, but little things and humans do that.
Speaker 4: But it was clear that Bundy was going to use
Speaker 4: his real name that day, and as he poured on
Speaker 4: the charm. And I feel that perhaps the reason why
Speaker 4: he did that is because of the people that he
Speaker 4: ran into the week before, and with the lake being
Speaker 4: even more prouded that daye All fourteenth, nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 4: And you know, I mean forty thousand people there if
Speaker 4: you've ever been there, and it's a packed beach area,
Speaker 4: and he must have been concerned that if he ran
Speaker 4: into anybody, and you know, let's say he had introduced
Speaker 4: himself as Charlie and some bey came up, Hey, say Dad,
Speaker 4: how you doing? It would immediately raised suspicion that the
Speaker 4: woman said, hey, I thought you said, your name was Charlie.
Speaker 4: So you know what, because he's already abducting women in
Speaker 4: Washington State, there's just one more day in doing that.
Speaker 4: And I think he tried to avoid any problems, so
Speaker 4: he was using this name. But yeah, it's fascinating stuff
Speaker 4: to go in there and read the testimony of these people,
Speaker 4: which thank god, you know, the King County Archives has
Speaker 4: you know how this stuff and Wharton State was very interesting.
Speaker 4: I mean it interested in preserving this case.
Speaker 6: One of the more fascinating things in this incredibly fascinating
Speaker 6: book is the Don Patchin, the retired detective from Florida
Speaker 6: that you spoke to about the Kyomega investigation, and he
Speaker 6: showed you the files and there was some scribbled notes
Speaker 6: you said, that were on the margins. This is incredibly fascinating.
Speaker 6: When the recorder was shut off and yet there was
Speaker 6: still notes about what Bundy had said. Tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about this interview, and especially about what you
Speaker 6: write about and include about some of the things Bundy said.
Speaker 6: Supposedly he thought.
Speaker 4: Of yeah, yeah, this is very interesting. I remember when
Speaker 4: I was I first went to see Don Patchen. I
Speaker 4: was actually I wrote the book The Bunny Murk chronologically,
Speaker 4: So the last that I would write about would would
Speaker 4: be the Florida Merse and what transpired down there. So
Speaker 4: I met with Don Passion at his home and us
Speaker 4: came into this home back in August of two thousand
Speaker 4: and eight, and his wife was so nice and we
Speaker 4: sat down and she had baked some chocolate chip cookie's
Speaker 4: us and I remember Don he reached down to the
Speaker 4: right and he pulled this this big plastic tub up
Speaker 4: off the floor, placed it on the table, and he
Speaker 4: began removing files and there were all the you know,
Speaker 4: copies of his personal notes and everything, and he gave
Speaker 4: me complete access to all that stuff, and he showed
Speaker 4: me the things that he had written down when Bundy
Speaker 4: had asked him to turn off the tape recorder, and
Speaker 4: Bundy had become very honest at this moment. You can
Speaker 4: tell about what Bundy said. And he talked about sometimes
Speaker 4: he feels like a vampire. He talked about seeing a
Speaker 4: girl wants riding on the bike, and I'm not looking
Speaker 4: at that portion in the book right now, but he
Speaker 4: talked about, you know, like I knew I had to
Speaker 4: have her, and he said that something along the lines
Speaker 4: you don't understand the significance of Lee catching me. That
Speaker 4: was Officer Lee, that patrolman in Pensicola. H you know,
Speaker 4: he said, but you don't understand this, you know the
Speaker 4: significance of that. But see Bundy did because he could
Speaker 4: see the handwriting on the wall. Because Bundy was looking
Speaker 4: back to the similar arrest by Officer Hayward in Utah,
Speaker 4: and that's why he fought so hard to get away
Speaker 4: from Lee. But in turning, when Bundy said, if you'll
Speaker 4: turn your tape recorders off, like I want to talk
Speaker 4: to you just between us, he didn't realize that these
Speaker 4: these detectives were going to scribble everything down, uh, and
Speaker 4: that that would later be entered into evidence as if
Speaker 4: it was on the tape recorder. The only difference was
Speaker 4: it's the testimony of the officers of what Bundy said.
Speaker 4: And in fact, they had some recording issues anyway with
Speaker 4: their tapes. And there was a part of those tapes
Speaker 4: I think would disallowed by Judge Coward later anyway because
Speaker 4: of some problems and and and and Buddy's uh attorney said, no,
Speaker 4: there's too much areas where where the detectives could play
Speaker 4: with things, and so certain aspects weren't allowed. But this
Speaker 4: this conversation that Bundy had where he was just talking
Speaker 4: to them and he said, he made another comment. He said,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to tell you you know, motus OPERENDI.
Speaker 4: He said, the downer he said, like the actual killing
Speaker 4: was was was like a downer. Okay, Bundy was just
Speaker 4: he was kind of coming clean on a number of things,
Speaker 4: and he thought he was doing it in a private
Speaker 4: conversation with these men and that it would go no farther.
Speaker 4: Of course, the detectives did what obviously what they do
Speaker 4: and entered it into evidence and it was ultimately used
Speaker 4: against him. But he can't read those notes without seeing
Speaker 4: how honest Bundy was becoming at that moment. Even when
Speaker 4: he was edging on telling something, he was still opening up.
Speaker 4: It was very interesting.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you write that. He said things like mentioned the girl,
Speaker 6: the girl on the bike. I just had to have
Speaker 6: her at any cost. And he said, I never heard
Speaker 6: anybody I knew like you said. He said tr He said,
Speaker 6: to fantasies equal problems. He says, it has to do
Speaker 6: with fantasies, it has to do with voyeurism.
Speaker 7: Mm hmm.
Speaker 4: And that was chredible. Yeah, he did that because you know,
Speaker 4: he was the thing about Bundy, you know, as he
Speaker 4: you know he was he always said he grew up
Speaker 4: with a practice personality, but he was not a predator.
Speaker 4: But as the years go by, his mind took on
Speaker 4: predatory thoughts and he wanted to you know, most boys
Speaker 4: grew up with sexual fantasy, you know, fantasies, and it's
Speaker 4: just about having sex with women. The same thing happened
Speaker 4: to him when he was young, but he started mixing
Speaker 4: those fantasies with strange things like what the Detective magazine showed,
Speaker 4: the covers of those things, binding women up, dominating women,
Speaker 4: threatening women, and he really started to get very twisted
Speaker 4: into thinking like that. And as he got even older
Speaker 4: than that, he was quite peeping tom and he would
Speaker 4: go out at night, you know, he'd peer in on women.
Speaker 4: He'd stand there and masturbate in the dark. And you know,
Speaker 4: when you're leading a life like this and you're already
Speaker 4: dealing with things where you have thoughts of abducting women
Speaker 4: and doing something, there is going to be a point
Speaker 4: where you pass and I say this in the book,
Speaker 4: from fantasy to reality, and you cross that thing. Because
Speaker 4: the actions he took when he started crossing. He had
Speaker 4: lived with those for a long time. I even speak
Speaker 4: about how when he was admitted being back East back
Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty nine, how he was on the verge
Speaker 4: of abducting with an abducting women and even tried to
Speaker 4: do it with one of them and it failed. And
Speaker 4: it wasn't because he wasn't aggressive enough. He was bubbling
Speaker 4: over with aggression. He just was not yet a skilled predator.
Speaker 4: So Bundy knew he had a lot of work to
Speaker 4: do in getting the place where he could do this
Speaker 4: and be successful at it. And boy, he reached that point,
Speaker 4: because it took a long time that catch this man.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Before I let you go too, you include a
Speaker 6: very again along with all the fascinating stuff, but something
Speaker 6: I had not known before you get to interview somebody
Speaker 6: named Done, and this person was a friend of Bundy.
Speaker 6: Tell us just a little bit about this correspondence or
Speaker 6: this interaction you have with him and his reluctance. Tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit about that.
Speaker 4: Now I believe you're talking about the fellow that I
Speaker 4: believe this is the man that had his testimony. He
Speaker 4: was a friend of Bundy's, considered a good friend. And
Speaker 4: when he first was interviewed by Jerry Thompson. He was
Speaker 4: not very willing to participate. I mean, they couldn't force
Speaker 4: him to, he wasn't under arrest, but things had transpired
Speaker 4: with him. And you can tell this guy was really
Speaker 4: a nice guy because he came back later and he
Speaker 4: apologized to Jerry, and he was transitioning from one at
Speaker 4: that moment, from one who believed Bundy to a person
Speaker 4: that was becoming somewhat suspicious and wondered. And I remember
Speaker 4: he said to Jerry after he apologized for being that way,
Speaker 4: and that he wanted to talk to them and be
Speaker 4: more open. You can almost see the kind of frustrate
Speaker 4: because I think he called Bundy his best friend and
Speaker 4: he said, do you really think that that that he
Speaker 4: did this thing? And I think Jerry said to him,
Speaker 4: yes I do, I'm absolutely convinced of it. And so
Speaker 4: here here was, here was a man done changing and
Speaker 4: being forced to change simply because his own mind was
Speaker 4: telling him that Bundy could be a lot more than
Speaker 4: what he had he had pretended to be. But this
Speaker 4: is not unusual for Bundy, and this is why it's
Speaker 4: so In fact, I'm just going to say it. The
Speaker 4: reason why I think people are so fascinated in Bundy
Speaker 4: in this case is because the outward Bundy was nothing
Speaker 4: like the inward Bundy. The outward Bundy was very likable,
Speaker 4: and that's why when this first started started to come
Speaker 4: out about Bundy. There was two places Bundy really put
Speaker 4: down roots, Washington State, where his home was, and in Utah.
Speaker 4: And in both places where he had put down roots,
Speaker 4: he had a lot of people that just couldn't bring
Speaker 4: themselves to believe that the guy they know could be
Speaker 4: involved in any of this stuff. And so done was
Speaker 4: in this same place. Good friends had a lot of
Speaker 4: lass with Bundy, and you know, almost would do anything
Speaker 4: for the guy. But yet he was teachable inside and
Speaker 4: as the as the thing. As all these things started
Speaker 4: to transpire, that's why he came back to Jerry and
Speaker 4: apologize and said, you know, do you really think it's
Speaker 4: possible that this could be? And you could see the
Speaker 4: confusion in him. He's all all, but he's also an
Speaker 4: honest man and he wants to do the right thing,
Speaker 4: and that's what's important.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's incredible too, I mean, he must be thinking
Speaker 6: about this forever. Bundy was his best man at his wedding.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah yeah, yeah, they were close friends.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's so much information that we didn't even get
Speaker 6: to speak to. I urge people to pick up this book,
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries The Many Victims of America's most
Speaker 6: infamous serial killer, Kevin Sullivan. I want to thank you
Speaker 6: very much for this interview Kevin. For those that might
Speaker 6: want to take a look at the other books Wild
Speaker 6: Blue Press and one from McFarland, the other Bundy books,
Speaker 6: tell us about your Facebook page or your website please sure.
Speaker 4: I actually have a number of the publishers, but if
Speaker 4: anybody wants to go to either my author page on Amazon,
Speaker 4: you can find all of my books there, no matter
Speaker 4: who the publisher is, and you can do the same
Speaker 4: thing at Wild Blue Press they also carry books, even
Speaker 4: though they don't bubblish. I'm writing for them pretty exclusively.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 4: A book last year came out from McFarland called Through
Speaker 4: an Unline Door, but pretty exclusively. But they'll carry at
Speaker 4: Wild Blue Press on my page all the books that
Speaker 4: I've published, Just like on Amazon, you know you'll see them.
Speaker 4: And in addition, if you go over to Wild Blue
Speaker 4: Press and you look a look for me on their
Speaker 4: list of authors. I have a lot of crime blogs
Speaker 4: or whatever that are archived there, and so you can
Speaker 4: go back and read them if you've never had a
Speaker 4: chance to do so. So people can find me on Facebook,
Speaker 4: on Amazon of course, and on and at Wild Blue Press.
Speaker 6: Thanks very much, Thank you very much, Kevin. This has
Speaker 6: been a great pleasure. Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries. Thank you
Speaker 6: very much. I have to speak to you again real soon.
Speaker 4: Thanks Dan. Okay, bye bye, thank you, good night.