WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.799 This podcast is intended for mature audiences. 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:05.759 Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:25.000 In the search for Kelly Wilson, who's been missing thirty years. 4 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:29.039 We've talked about a lot of potential suspects, teenage boys, 5 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:33.719 a former boss, some rich man, maybe even a hired hit. 6 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.200 Well here's another one, a curveball. 7 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:41.799 He has crossed my mind literally hundreds of times as 8 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:44.200 whether or not he could be responsible, and I have 9 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:46.840 maybe changed my mind a dozen. 10 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:51.719 Town nearly fifteen years ago, February two thousand and eight, 11 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.240 on a lonely highway in East Texas, a state trooper 12 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:59.159 pulled over a vehicle for an expired registration sticker. When 13 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:01.799 the state trooper walked up to the car, he found 14 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:05.359 three people inside, a twenty year old woman named Carol, 15 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:10.200 her boyfriend who was eighteen, and the driver. His name 16 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:15.640 was James Dixon Graves Dickie. The state trooper found booze 17 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:19.239 in the car and a fully loaded twenty two caliber handgun. 18 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:22.400 When he popped the trunk, there was weird stuff in there. 19 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:28.640 Three fully loaded handguns, four digital cameras, a camcorder, a 20 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:32.640 couple of tripods like for filming, an electrical sex toy, 21 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:37.719 and porno DVDs. This was Dickie's car. Dickie Graves a 22 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:40.560 Gilmer native living in the nearby town of Lone Star. 23 00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:44.560 Dicky was this schlubby, balding guy in his late forties 24 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:46.280 with thick glasses and. 25 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:46.920 A heavy beard. 26 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:50.280 The young woman in the car with him, Carol, told 27 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.760 the state trooper that she, Dickie, and her teenage boyfriend 28 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:58.560 were driving to a motel across the state line and Shreveport, Louisiana, 29 00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:02.560 where Dickie was gone to film them having sex. The 30 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:06.480 young woman riding with Dickie to Louisiana, Carol said that 31 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.680 Dickie had been paying her to perform sex acts since 32 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:13.759 she was fifteen. She'd seen him pay other women, including 33 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.479 one with severe mental disabilities. Police got a warrant to 34 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:23.039 search Dickie's house. They found all kinds of whips, masks, restraints, 35 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:29.520 sex toys, costumes, and pornography involving very young children, all 36 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:33.879 near children's toys and dolls, and a Cinderella bedspread. In 37 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:38.000 one video, Dicky coax's the mentally disabled woman into sex 38 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:41.719 by offering to go get Winnie the Pooh. In two 39 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.039 thousand and nine, Dickie Graves was found guilty of nearly 40 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:49.840 three dozen charges, including possession of child porn and aggravated 41 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:54.120 sexual assault and indecency with a child. He was sentenced 42 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:57.479 to a whopping one thousand, four hundred and forty years 43 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.919 in prison. Dickie had an ex girlfriend and well, she. 44 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:02.919 Was a little scared. She thought he was stalking her. 45 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:05.439 He'd be out in the woods at now watching her house. 46 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:09.159 This is Steve Cowan. He was the district attorney who 47 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:13.639 prosecuted Dickie. Steve interviewed the ex girlfriend outside her house 48 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.000 on a sweltering summer day. 49 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:21.400 It was real hot, about one hundred degrees, and I'd 50 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:24.199 sat out and talked her on the front porch. I 51 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:28.719 had asked her the open ended question, was he ever 52 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:36.520 obsessed with anything or anybody? And she said no. I 53 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.840 left the house, I remember, as clear as a bell, 54 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:43.960 and I went about one hundred yards down the road 55 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:48.960 and stopped. And when I stopped at the stop sign, 56 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.039 somebody started beating on my side glass. I rode my 57 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.319 window down, and she said, Kelly Wilson, Kelly Wilson. He 58 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.080 was obsessed with Kelly Wilson. I think she is the 59 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.439 one that told me that he had clippings all over 60 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:09.360 seemed like it might have been the kitchen, all over. 61 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:13.759 The walls, newspaper clippings about Kelly Wilson all over the 62 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:17.160 walls of a sex offender's house. I asked Steve about 63 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.519 a rumor going around that Dicky Graves had a shrine 64 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:21.120 to Kelly. 65 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:25.519 I don't know about a shrine at his house. He 66 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.120 did seem to have some sort of fascination with that case. 67 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:36.000 I don't know if they ever linked him to the 68 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:42.079 case of that just being a suspect. He did on 69 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:48.519 a TV and appliant repair place just about two blocks 70 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:50.399 from where the disappearance occurred. 71 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:55.040 When Dicky's family members searched his repair shop near the 72 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.360 movie store where Kelly was last seen, they found even 73 00:04:58.439 --> 00:04:59.600 more stuff about Kelly. 74 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:05.639 Had apparently the key to the TV prepair shop building 75 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:10.360 in Gilmer, and they went into that building and they 76 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:14.000 told me that they found a box of clippings. 77 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:21.720 There was a big box of articles about that Kelly 78 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:27.600 Wilson case, So he apparently was very interested in it. 79 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:31.759 But Steve also points out that Dicky was the kind 80 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:34.920 of person who just got really fixated on certain topics 81 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:39.040 mysteries from the Texas Battle for Independence, for example, and 82 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:41.920 serial killers such as Ted Bundy and Beat k. 83 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:45.480 He might have been the type of guy that would 84 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:50.399 get obsessed about a historic fact or something. So I 85 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:55.000 don't know whether they ever actually linked him directly to it, 86 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.240 whether he was the person of interest. And I did 87 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.279 occasional come across information and I thought might be useful 88 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.319 to the Kelly Wilson investigator, and I passed whatever I 89 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:10.079 had onto them. There were a lot of people trying 90 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:14.199 to solve that case, and as you know, I'm sure 91 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:17.319 there's dozens of people thought they had it right and 92 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:22.040 they were wrong. I live in a fat world and 93 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:26.879 not a speculative world, and trying to imagine ourselves into 94 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.000 the scenario. You know, you're presuming to be innocent, and 95 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:33.000 he's not here to defend himself. But I did find 96 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:37.839 him to be smart and methodical, meticulosy, seemed to have 97 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:42.560 a charming, winning personality, and a lot of people were 98 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:43.480 taken in by that. 99 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:46.639 Remember, by this time, Dicky was living in the nearby 100 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.360 town of Lone Star, not his hometown Gilmer. 101 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:53.600 When the search warrants were done in Lone Star at 102 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.319 his house, some items were seized including a whole lot 103 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:02.600 of old computer drives and things like that, because I 104 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.439 thought it might track back to Kelly. Wilson say, I've 105 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:08.600 probably spent a thousand hours on the case of my 106 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:12.560 home time, because I thought the stakes were high. That 107 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:17.120 there were five hundred thousand sexual images on his computer, 108 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:22.000 and you know, we had pictures of people who had 109 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.720 been in his house in some of them incompromising positions, 110 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:29.680 and I was always curious about, you know, could he 111 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.959 these be Kelly? And so I became familiar with what 112 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:36.319 she looked like and pretty well eliminated her. 113 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:40.560 Apparently there was no hard evidence linking Dicky Graves back 114 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:41.360 to Kelly. 115 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:45.160 And I wish you well on the investigation. I've always 116 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.959 bill been real unsettled about unsolved murders. 117 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:54.680 In earlier episodes, we talked about another guy who was 118 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.279 convicted of child porn possession, Joe Henry, the video store 119 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.480 manager who was last seen with Kelly. Joe and Dickie's 120 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.600 businesses were just around the corner from each other. Dickie 121 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:08.839 repaired TVs, Joe rented movies and repaired VCRs, and I 122 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:11.879 recently confirmed the video store where Joe was the manager 123 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:14.279 rented legal porn out of a space in the back. 124 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.519 Did anything you found ever connect with Joe Henry, the 125 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:20.439 Gilma resident. 126 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:23.240 No. 127 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:25.879 No, And that was a curious thing to me too. 128 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.120 I thought maybe that might be a one off. 129 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:32.600 Just to reiterate, nothing found during the search of Dickie's 130 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.639 house linked back to Joe. I also asked Joe Henry 131 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:36.960 about Dickie Graves. 132 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.519 Did you know Dicky Graves back in the day? 133 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:40.679 Dicky? 134 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:42.080 Oh, that. 135 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:49.000 Name is Dixon. His name is Dixon. Yes, Jackson was older. 136 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:51.840 He just knew him when he came in. You ran 137 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:55.480 a movie or something. He was kind of Uh. I'm 138 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:57.960 not saying he's crazy, but just a little bit bizarre, 139 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:00.200 a little bit different. That was rid of all I 140 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:01.679 knew about him. 141 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.840 So you didn't know about Dicky being involved in some 142 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:06.720 of that shady stuff back in the day. 143 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:09.720 No, that he was never brought up to me, you know, 144 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:14.679 But I now let me tell you, I think James 145 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:19.519 brought him up one time about I think he had 146 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:22.639 mixed with James's wife or girlfriend or something. Is that, 147 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:24.519 you know, I mean that kind of deal. But I 148 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.200 don't know that had nothing to do with anything. Basically, 149 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:29.399 he was just talking about that. 150 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.600 Okay, this is just a weird little Gilmer thing. James 151 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.320 is James York Brown, the local cop who was falsely 152 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.559 accused of murdering Kelly Wilson and a satanic ritual in 153 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.919 the woods outside of town. Dickie always resented James because well, 154 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.480 James stole one of Dicky's girlfriends. And it turns out 155 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:51.240 the girlfriend, her name is Debbie, was with James Brown 156 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:55.320 on the night Kelly disappeared. She provided his alibi. Now 157 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:00.360 that's small town romance. But here's another wrinkle. About a 158 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.039 decade before Dicky's arrest and conviction for sex crimes, the 159 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:07.960 police received an anonymous letter, a letter alleging that Kelly 160 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.000 Wilson was buried under the house where Dicky lived back 161 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.559 when Kelly vanished from Gilmour in nineteen ninety two. At 162 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:17.639 the time, Dickie lived just minutes from Kelly's house. His 163 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.759 family sold the house in nineteen ninety six, four years 164 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.679 after Kelly's disappearance. Fast forward to the year two thousand 165 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:29.120 and four. Jennifer Dean remember her, She was a high 166 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:32.879 school friend of Kelly's. Out of the blue, Jennifer's husband 167 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:34.879 gets a call from the Gilmer police chief. 168 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.559 He is telling him that he's received an anonymous letter 169 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:45.240 and it is saying that possibly Kelly is buried under 170 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.639 our current home, which the home was owned by that 171 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:52.759 van Dickie Graves at the time when she went missing. 172 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:56.799 The anonymous letter sent to the police alleges that Kelly's 173 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:00.519 body would be found underneath her own friend's house, a 174 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.480 house owned by Dicky Graves at the time Kelly was 175 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:07.879 last seen. Of course, Jennifer and her husband authorized the 176 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.559 police to search for Kelly. It was time to start 177 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:20.559 digging from imperative entertainment. I'm Wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. 178 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:41.399 This is chapter ten, Part two, real evidence. So Jennifer 179 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:45.159 Dean hasn't seen her friend Kelly Wilson in like fifteen years. 180 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:49.000 Now she's being told that Kelly might be buried underneath 181 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:49.679 her property. 182 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:54.480 I mean like they had abi jackets on, They had 183 00:11:54.759 --> 00:12:01.120 tables set up in my grandmother in law's driveway, which 184 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:04.799 just it sits next to our house, and they put 185 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:08.240 on these suits, I guess to keep from you know, 186 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.480 contaminating some sort of scene. If they found anything, they 187 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:15.799 had cadaver dogs. It was a whole deal. And I'm 188 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.000 at home. You know, I've got a couple of little 189 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:20.879 kids too, and I'm just like, wow, I can't believe 190 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.960 this is actually happening. This is this is surreal. And 191 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:27.000 they went everywhere, and at the end of the day, 192 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:31.799 you know, Chief Grunning told my husband that, yeah, that 193 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.240 they had the dogs had maybe hit on a couple 194 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:36.879 of places under the house and then another place out 195 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.679 because garage. It was a detached garage which she'd kind 196 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:45.799 of turned into like a little workshop, and you know, 197 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.879 they'd like to come back with I don't know what 198 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:51.840 or who or if they bring more equipment or what 199 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:53.200 to look a little further. 200 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:55.840 I guess they dug a little under the house. They 201 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:56.919 didn't find anything. 202 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.440 They ended up taking up a big patch of concrete 203 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.759 in the backyard and outside that little garage and there 204 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:06.840 was nothing there. 205 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.120 So it basically nothing turned up. 206 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:15.080 The FBI's here, they're digging up. I mean, are you thinking, like, 207 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.600 oh my gosh, like Kelly is is here. 208 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:23.320 I just couldn't imagine that if that becomes a reality, 209 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.679 that she's been buried under our house or on our 210 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.600 property or something all this time, that I just I 211 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:30.919 don't know. 212 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.360 I couldn't even take myself there. 213 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:34.080 It was. 214 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:36.879 It was a sweet little home. We loved it. 215 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:42.639 But that would have really kind of rocked the world 216 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:45.279 if that's what had happened in it, you know, revealed 217 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.480 some things about what happened to her that would that 218 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:50.200 would definitely be something I want. 219 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.120 But it's crazy. 220 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:55.840 Not long ago, I got my hands on some letters 221 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:58.960 that Dicky Graves sent from prison to an East Texas 222 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.519 woman who was interested in Kelly's case. In the letters, 223 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:07.039 Dicky denied ever knowing Kelly Wilson. Like so many potential 224 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:11.320 suspects in this case, Dickie died in twenty fifteen, leading 225 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.960 to yet another dead end. However, Jennifer says the cadaver 226 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:19.360 dogs alerted on a couple of spots the police decided 227 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:22.080 not to dig up. She has no idea why they 228 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.960 avoided those spots, but she still owns the house. Jennifer 229 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.559 can't help but wonder what the cops might have missed. 230 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.360 She's even been in touch with private investigator Amanda Gamble 231 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.639 to see about a new search of the property, anything 232 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:39.639 to bring Kelly home. Like Kelly's other friends, Jennifer has 233 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:42.639 spent countless hours sifting through the details of the case 234 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:47.799 weighing the clues, looking for answers. We keep talking about 235 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.480 a party, the party Kelly was supposed to go to 236 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.960 after she got off work. If there was a party, 237 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.960 Jennifer would have known about it, right, But Jennifer is skeptical. 238 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.679 What teenagers throw a party on Sunday night. 239 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:02.000 It wouldn't have. 240 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.200 Been anything going on in Gilmour for the most part, 241 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:05.960 and that was kind of weird. 242 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:09.399 There are details from the night that Kelly disappeared that 243 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.720 continue to stick with me that don't have answers. If 244 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.799 the party happened at all, something tells me this wasn't 245 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:19.799 a big blowout. I picture a handful of kids passing 246 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.879 the time on some back road, a quiet, out of 247 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:25.799 the way place they won't get caught drinking or passing 248 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:29.240 around a joint. And Yet, if Kelly was going out 249 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.840 at all that night, wouldn't she have brought along her 250 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.679 purse and her bottle of vodka? Those were both found 251 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.360 in her car the next morning. I guess someone could 252 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:42.000 have returned the purse to her car later. Unfortunately, as 253 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:44.960 I mentioned before, police didn't treat the car like a 254 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:49.519 crime scene. They didn't even bother to collect fingerprints. You 255 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:51.679 also have to remember it was kind of cold that 256 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:55.440 January night, and Kelly was in cut off jeene shorts. 257 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.440 Wouldn't she have wanted to change into something warmer before 258 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.440 heading out? And if it also finds it a little 259 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.799 strange that Kelly hadn't told her family where she was going. 260 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.919 I didn't come home all night long. 261 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.440 My mom would have known there'd been some major red flags. 262 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.240 Compare that to a lot of other kids, and that 263 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:18.399 wasn't necessarily normal. So what you know that might may 264 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.159 point back to, yes, that she was she was doing 265 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.279 some grown up stuff. I guess you could say, who knows, 266 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.399 But for the rest of us, that would have kind of, 267 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:31.600 you know, our parents would have been like, yeah, that's 268 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:33.159 not this is not okay. 269 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.120 That brings us back to another theory, that Kelly was 270 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.279 mixed up with an older man or men, someone who 271 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:44.000 maybe drove a dark luxury car, someone who'd given Kelly 272 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:46.039 lots of cash. 273 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.039 So you hadn't heard anything about her going to the 274 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:50.080 parties with the. 275 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.360 Older men, So that was. 276 00:16:55.279 --> 00:17:00.919 I don't know, I guess shocking to hear. Honestly, I 277 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.559 don't know. So on one hand, I'm kind of like, 278 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.799 wouldn't we know. I mean like we were partying with 279 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.880 Kelly and we weren't like judging. I mean, we were 280 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:14.359 all up to no good for the most part, just 281 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:15.000 having fun. 282 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:17.480 But why wouldn't she tell us? 283 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.599 But then again, if that was actually happening and we 284 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.000 didn't know, well, then there was there was this other 285 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:25.559 side of things that was going on and we didn't 286 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:28.839 know about it. I don't know what other girls, though, 287 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:33.759 would have been participating in that if none of us 288 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:38.799 were proposition to participate in I'm making myself sound terrible, 289 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.359 and I really wasn't that bad, you know what I mean? 290 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:42.319 Does that make sense? 291 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:45.400 There were two or three or four girls that were 292 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:47.279 getting paid to have sex with older men. 293 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:50.599 Who who else would it be? I don't know. 294 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.920 This too opens up more questions. What about a random stranger, 295 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.400 some sketchy guy who just happens to drift through Gilmer 296 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:03.839 that night, He sees Kelly, he wants her, he takes her. 297 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.839 A lot of people have wondered about this possibility. Here's 298 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.039 Sergeant Brown's son, Josh, who was a kid when Kelly disappeared. 299 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.839 I've got a theory. I don't know if it holds water. 300 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.599 What was a big serial killer that come through East Texas. 301 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:24.759 Josh is referring to Samuel Little, who confessed to killing 302 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.039 nearly one hundred women between nineteen seventy five and two 303 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:31.000 thousand and five, a lot of confessions that turned out 304 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.039 to be bogus. Little died a couple of years ago, 305 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:36.359 follow his tracks. 306 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.880 He was there about the same time. 307 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.960 I'm skeptical that it could have been Samuel Little or 308 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.799 any other stranger. I mean, the killer had to have 309 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:49.720 been someone who knew Kelly. Remember he or they even 310 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.200 went to the trouble of returning Kelly's car key to 311 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.119 her family, which means that he knew where she lived. 312 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.559 And let's go beyond that, what cold blooded serial killer 313 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.839 even takes the risk of returning the key. No, Kelly's 314 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.759 abductor would have to be someone who, in a weird way, 315 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.519 was still conscientious enough to give the keyback. As you 316 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.240 can see everyone say for Lee, Harvey Oswald has had 317 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.079 something whispered about them over the course of the thirty 318 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.759 years since Kelly's disappearance. That's disturbing, but it also shows 319 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.519 how this small town still has not let this story 320 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:30.039 go so many years later. For me, still more questions, 321 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.119 what about the bank deposit. A random criminal with no 322 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.759 ties to Kelly or the video store would have surely 323 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.720 kept the money for himself instead of dropping it off 324 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.440 at the bank. Did Kelly get a ride to the 325 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:45.400 bank from someone she trusted? 326 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:49.319 I've always thought that it had to be somebody she knew. 327 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:51.920 I just don't see Kelly. 328 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.880 She was friendly, but she wouldn't stupid, you know, Like 329 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:58.799 she wouldn't just get in the car with I mean, 330 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:02.319 she'd have to be forced into a But eight o'clock 331 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.319 Sunday night, right there on the square, that's a big gamble. 332 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.279 That's a huge gamble. And I don't think it was 333 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:12.000 coincidence their tire was slashed. 334 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.440 I think that that was part of what happened. 335 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.000 I don't know about the slash tire. What about her 336 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:23.759 tire getting slashed two nights earlier? And remember a girl 337 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.720 who worked with Kelly at the video store also got 338 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:31.680 her tire slashed the previous night. Private investigator Amanda Gamble 339 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.359 has been working a different angle, and Amanda has an announcement, 340 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:40.920 where are we now with the search for Kelly compared 341 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:44.039 to maybe like when you started this search almost a 342 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:44.640 year ago. 343 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:47.680 We have uncovered. 344 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:56.519 New evidence that has never been released before by individuals 345 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.359 that didn't talk in the past that are now feeling 346 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:02.119 more comfortable to come forward and talk. 347 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:06.680 Even since the podcast has started. We don't have just 348 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:09.400 kind of a general location anymore. 349 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.480 We actually have more of a specific area and a 350 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:18.559 physical location of where she could possibly be buried. 351 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.640 So you think you have this location, I mean, this 352 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.599 is huge. This is something that you know you had 353 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.599 mentioned to me early on, but I was trying to 354 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.119 be really careful not giving away too much. What can 355 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.720 you tell us about this location that you have. 356 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.480 I won't release the exact area. 357 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:45.039 And you still think there was a group of guys 358 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.440 that took Kelly out to some like a pasture, and then. 359 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.680 I think there's more than one person involved for sure. 360 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:58.839 I don't know about necessarily the pasture. I think that 361 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:00.880 it is going to be wooded area. 362 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.400 And so you're you're still looking at like a few 363 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.000 different locations then. 364 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:17.400 Nope, just one. 365 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.920 Here's more from my conversation with private investigator Amanda Gamble. 366 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:30.079 I asked how she can be so sure of the 367 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.160 location for Kelly's body. Do you know that because of 368 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.440 like confidential informants? How do you know this is the place. 369 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:39.480 Well, one would be a confidential informant. 370 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.200 And when is since you had started the podcast, we 371 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:49.920 actually had an individual come forward that was actually blatantly 372 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:56.680 told where the location was, why the person that had 373 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:04.000 buried Kelly, And so we've got to you know, really 374 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:09.480 validate that information, and so far we've been able to 375 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:10.680 validate it. 376 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:11.920 Well. 377 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:16.160 I mean, that would be so amazing for Kelly's friends 378 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:21.319 and her parents to finally have closure and know at 379 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.160 least know where their daughter is. 380 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.200 Right, yes, definitely. 381 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.079 When this happened, you know, I was a child just 382 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.519 like you are. And over the years, you know, this 383 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.079 has always been something that has I hate to use 384 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.880 the word haunted, but it has, it's haunted everybody in 385 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:46.119 Northeast Texas and beyond talking with her mother. 386 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:50.400 Weekly, you know, sometimes daily. 387 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.720 That is one thing that I know both of her 388 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:58.359 parents want is to know what happened where she's at, 389 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:00.480 to be able to have that closure and be able 390 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:02.519 to have a place to like their daughter's risk. 391 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.119 I've talked to you and I've talked to Kelly's friends 392 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.079 about these kind of powerful men and Gilmer, older men 393 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:14.680 that might have been involved in this. Do you still 394 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.279 think I mean, is that the direction you're going still 395 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.079 thinking that it involved these kind of older like maybe wealthier, 396 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.440 more powerful men and Gilmer. 397 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:29.599 At this time, would I be willing to put that 398 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.000 on this stand, you know, in front of a jury. 399 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:39.599 Not completely, But do I see that being a significant 400 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:44.519 part in the fact that it has not been solved 401 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:45.319