WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaysey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:32.719 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:45.320 Good Evening, an eight part miniseries, The John Wayne Gacy Murders, 8 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.880 Life and Death in Chicago is the first ever historical, 9 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:54.759 comprehensive and chronological mini series to study the life and 10 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:59.719 crimes of the infamous serial killer, from his birth to 11 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:05.000 the ongoing investigation of identifying unknown victims. This is the 12 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:10.879 groundbreaking documentary project that filmmaker John Borowski has dedicatedly worked 13 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:16.400 on for five years, uncovering extraordinary new facts and dispelling 14 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:23.400 certain myths about the case. Barowski features important and exclusive 15 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:30.640 interviews he conducted with leading psychologists, childhood friends, arresting officers, prosecutors, 16 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:37.079 Gasey's Death Row, attorney employees, and victims family members in 17 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.640 order to create the definitive documentary regarding John Wayne Gacy. 18 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:48.480 Feature this Evening is the documentary miniseries The John Wayne 19 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:53.560 Gaysey murders, Life and Death in Chicago with my special 20 00:01:53.599 --> 00:02:00.840 guest writer, author, and documentary filmmaker John Barowski. Welcome back 21 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:03.400 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 22 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:07.799 John Borowski, thank you for having me again. 23 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.759 Thank you so much. And congratulations on the John Wayne 24 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:18.319 Gacy Murders Life and Death in Chicago documentary mini series. 25 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:21.479 Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a long time coming, 26 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.800 and definitely proud of it and glad it's been released 27 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.840 to the world for everyone to, you know, watch this 28 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.479 chronological epic of Gaysey's life. 29 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:37.199 This is a definitive story, the definitive film and exploration 30 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:41.080 of John Wayne Gacy, totally comprehensive. I applaud you for 31 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:43.240 this incredible body of work. 32 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:46.599 Thank you so much. And that was what I really 33 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:49.960 wanted to do, you know. I had seen other documentaries, 34 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:53.479 of course, researched and read all the books, and I 35 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.280 found like in some of these other documentaries, they were 36 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:59.879 somewhat scattered, they would jump back and forth in timelines, 37 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:04.000 and I wanted to My ultimate goal was to create 38 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:08.759 a epic mini series where you could study Gaysey's life 39 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:12.439 and crimes from his birth to even to now, with 40 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:16.960 all these conspiracy theories going on, because you get a 41 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:22.479 more fuller picture of how Gasey became what he became, 42 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:25.439 and a lot of that is instilled in the childhood. 43 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:27.919 And that's where I begin with in the series, in 44 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:28.599 his childhood. 45 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.000 Now, just before we start, we'll just tell our audience 46 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:39.280 your role in this entire documentary film series. You're the producer, writer, 47 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:42.240 and director. I'll just tell us I interviewed you in 48 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:46.719 twenty twenty about your book, John Wayne Gacy Hunting a Predator. 49 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.800 Just tell us briefly about the genesis of this film series. 50 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:57.000 Yeah, it began a little over five years ago. I 51 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:59.759 was thinking of what my next project was going to 52 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.639 be a I actually was in the middle of working 53 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.800 on a documentary on Jesse Pomroy, the boy Killer from 54 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.360 Boston in eighteen seventy four, which I still want to 55 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:14.039 return to. But then a friend of mine had the 56 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.639 same camera that I had, so he said, well, let's 57 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.199 do something where we could do two camera shoots. And 58 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:22.279 I'm like, okay, Well, and I started thinking of a project, 59 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:28.519 and I started looking into Gacy, and he's very contemporary 60 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.120 to me in that respect because the serial killers I 61 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:38.279 usually focus on are late eighteen hundreds through early nineteen 62 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.480 hundreds American serial killers, and I knew that would be 63 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:43.959 a challenge as well, doing something even though it was 64 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.680 forty years ago the case, or when he was arrested, 65 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:52.000 over forty years ago, there is still people. There are 66 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.839 still people alive and relatives of the victims. So I 67 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.920 was very careful about that as well. And I looked 68 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.319 into the case and I thought, wow, there are similarities 69 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.079 between Gaycy's life and mind. I grew up in Chicago, 70 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.240 we both grew up on the Northwest Side. Both of 71 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:13.879 our fathers are buried in the same cemetery. We both 72 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.279 went to the same high school. Obviously, he was kicked out, obviously, 73 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.600 and we're both gay. So I thought, Okay, now this 74 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:23.399 is something that I could bring my personal experience to 75 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:27.680 and tell the story and really flesh it out as 76 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:31.079 far as all of these different aspects of not only 77 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:34.560 Gaycy's life, but what was going on in Chicago and 78 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:37.240 America at the times he was growing up. 79 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:43.519 In this extraordinary film series, you have exclusive interviews with 80 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:51.120 forensic psychologist doctor Helen Morrison, also a clinical social worker, 81 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:59.399 Catherine Clevenger, and also Stephen Gianagelo. He is a author 82 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:05.720 and criminology professor. Tell us about John Gasey's early life. 83 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:08.480 He was born in nineteen forty two in Chicago. Tell 84 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.399 us about his early life as you do and you 85 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.399 tell in this film through the interviews with the three 86 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.639 people talking about the psychology and the origins of John 87 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.720 Way Gasey's psycho sexual development in this film, tell us 88 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:27.120 about some of the information garnered through these interviews. 89 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.279 Yes, you know it was. I was somewhat lucky enough 90 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:36.040 to be in Chicago while the majority of these experts 91 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.800 that I interviewed were still in Chicago or in the 92 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:43.920 Chicago Land area. I flew one of the interviewees in 93 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.120 from Texas, but everyone else was still here, So I 94 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.800 was lucky in that and the first episode there are 95 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:53.720 only three interviewees. But as the mini series goes on, 96 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:57.920 each segment has to do with that part of Gaysey's life. 97 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:02.439 So I try to best possible to contain those areas 98 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:06.040 within themselves, so we don't see the police who arrested 99 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:09.319 Gasey until we get that point where he's being under investigation. 100 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:13.199 I wanted Helen Morrison to give an account of Gacy's 101 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:20.160 childhood because Helen Morrison interviewed Gacy's mother and Gacy himself. 102 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:24.879 So Helen Morrison was Gaysey's psychiatrist who spoke for the 103 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:29.279 defense at the trial. And I also wanted someone to 104 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:34.560 talk about child abuse, how that affects the child, especially 105 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.399 growing up, and that's why Cathy was important in that. 106 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.319 And Steve gin Angelo I've worked with on other projects. 107 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:45.000 He's great on camera, and he's a great author. I've 108 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.639 actually published one of his books and going to publish 109 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.279 another one of his soon. And at the whole beginning 110 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.959 is very important for me of any of these serial killers, 111 00:07:55.199 --> 00:08:00.560 because I believe that these serial killers form what they 112 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:03.839 later become in their formative years as a child. And 113 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:08.959 I've seen this through studying serial killers. And it's interesting 114 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:11.759 that you could watch my Gaycy miniseries. You could watch 115 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:15.600 the entire first episode, watch the entire eight hours, and 116 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:20.199 come back to that first episode and see the parallels 117 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.480 between what's in his childhood and what happens later in 118 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.360 his life. So those are two key things I wanted 119 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.879 to touch on in the first episode. Obviously, I think 120 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:33.320 the world knows, or many people know, that Gaycy was 121 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:38.279 abused by his father verbally and physically. His father also 122 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:41.799 abused his sisters, not as much as Gaycy. His father 123 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.960 actually hated Gaycy himself, and he would abuse their mother sometimes. 124 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.320 The father would abuse you know, his mother sometimes as well. 125 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.480 But the Gaycy's mother, Marian, put him through a lot 126 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:57.600 of tortures as a child. She gave him enemas when 127 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.679 he was very young baby. She thought he was ill. 128 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:03.000 She thought he had some sort of a heart condition. 129 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.799 So not only was she giving him medicines, which she 130 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:10.360 wasn't a pharmacist, so she was just trying out different 131 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:12.720 medicines on him. I have no idea where she obtained 132 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:18.159 them from, but this obviously affected Gacy later in life. 133 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.200 But also, and this happens we see with other serial 134 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:27.320 killers that have issues with their mothers. She would coddle Gacy. 135 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.960 So because she thought he had an heart issue, she 136 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.840 wanted to protect him from ever getting hurt by anything. 137 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.120 So that means she wouldn't let him play sports at school, 138 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:40.200 She wouldn't let him hang around with other boys running 139 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:44.559 around doing things, And so Gacy developed this affinity to 140 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:46.840 hang out with his mom and his sisters and do 141 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:51.600 more feminine things or gentle thing, you know, working in 142 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:55.600 a garden, you know, building some things. You know, he 143 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:58.639 had a paper route, but he was always industrious ever 144 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.639 since he was a kid. But you do. I don't 145 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:05.240 want to give too much about the first episode away, 146 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:07.840 but like I said, I wanted to make sure there 147 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:12.360 were parallels between his childhood and what comes later, because 148 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:16.799 I've read these books about Gasey and there are factual 149 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:21.279 and fictional information in these books about Gasey's childhood and 150 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:23.879 not much as really fleshed out. And that's exactly what 151 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:27.240 I wanted to do. And not many people realize how 152 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.720 much Marion his mother had kind of to do with 153 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.120 also that negative upbringing of him by using him as 154 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.519 a test subject for these different pharmaceuticals, she was giving. 155 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:44.639 Him other than these maybe psychosomatic or in her mind, 156 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:48.240 these illnesses that didn't exist. But he was plagued by 157 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.159 certain actual alements, and he was in and out of 158 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:53.399 hospital as a young boy, wasn't he. 159 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:57.440 Yes, And they never found throughout Gasey's life from when 160 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:02.120 he was a child until he was under investigation and 161 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.399 in Waterloo, Iowa, when he went to prison, and eventually 162 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:09.480 when he was studied in Chicago after he was arrested 163 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:16.799 he showed no abnormal signs of anything physiological or psychological. 164 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:23.759 Everything came up on tests perfectly. But as Kathy in 165 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:29.480 the documentary explains, that children can have these, their children's 166 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.799 bodies or anyone really could have this reaction to some 167 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:38.519 sort of a stressor, and they can't the body itself 168 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:40.960 could go into these seizures. And that's what would happen 169 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:44.600 with Gacy. He would have these seizures, he would black out, 170 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.240 and usually they were around times when he was most 171 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:52.840 likely extremely nervous or anxious because he lived in that 172 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:55.639 environment almost twenty four to seven, you know, other than 173 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:58.159 when he went to school, because it was a constant 174 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:00.919 stressor at home for him. That's the other thing I 175 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:02.919 didn't understand. I read a lot of these books and 176 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.399 they said some would say he definitely had a heart condition. 177 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:09.320 You know, these things happened, but you know, even when 178 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:12.000 I interviewed the experts, they knew he was you know, 179 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:15.480 he would manipulate them and use that as a tactic. 180 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.240 Sometimes it may have been real, but other times, you know, 181 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:21.279 I think he may have used it to his benefit, 182 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:26.399 outlining the fact that he had this supposed issue already. 183 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.360 And I think, like many conmen and serial killers. Gaycy 184 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.480 learned as he went along and how he could manipulate people. 185 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.399 And I think that also started in his childhood kind 186 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:40.840 of with you know, his mother in that way, and 187 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:42.399 just continued. 188 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:47.159 In this film. You talk about that, this idea that 189 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:51.519 the mother was overprotective and then she thought he was 190 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.480 sickly and so he didn't participate in any physical activity 191 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:57.840 fearing that he might get hurt or something. But this 192 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:04.840 was at direct odd to his father's attitude towards homosexuality, 193 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:09.759 but more importantly his attitudewards femininity and masculinity. And he 194 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:11.759 thought that all of the things that his son was 195 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:15.759 interested in were surely going to make him not grow 196 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:16.679 into a real man. 197 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:21.120 Yeah, you know, it's a perfect storm in the Gaysey household. 198 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:25.159 Obviously from his birth, you know, he was given, you know, 199 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:29.799 the name of John Wayne Gacy, modeled after the iconic 200 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:34.360 American Western hero John Wayne, and so already from the 201 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:36.679 second he was born, he had something to live up 202 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:39.840 to in his father's eyes. And you're right, so after 203 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.360 he started doing these feminine things, not hanging around with 204 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:47.639 other boys, he did have a best friend, Barry Boshelley, 205 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.279 who's also I believe he's in the first episode and 206 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.679 he was Gasey's best friend. But yeah, all of those 207 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:59.480 things affected him, and his father began viewing him negatively 208 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.759 because he did those feminine things. So again it was 209 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:07.039 a catch twenty two. He couldn't play with other boys 210 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.759 or do sports because his mother wouldn't let him, and 211 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.960 so he's doing these you know, alternate things to have 212 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:17.000 fun and he has this one best friend. But that's 213 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:21.360 about it. And talking about he grew up during the 214 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.960 nineteen fifties, which was like one of the worst time 215 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.679 for anyone to be gay in America or you know, 216 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.919 even the world. But I believe his issues definitely being 217 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:36.840 gay started like obviously adolescent, you know, teenager years. But yeah, 218 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.799 he grew to hate himself because his father hated him, 219 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.799 and he would hear all these negative things from his 220 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:48.200 father about homosexuals, about femininity, you know, and the mum. 221 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:51.000 When the father would abuse Gaycy, the mother would stick 222 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.559 up for the father and say, well, you know, he 223 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:56.919 does a Molly column and that's the way it has 224 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.919 to be, you know, So she went along with his abuse. 225 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:04.440 So yeah, there were definitely all these issues going on, 226 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.840 and it was difficult for Gaysey at that time period 227 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:09.559 because anywhere you look, you look at religion, your school, 228 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.159 your work, your home. In the fifties, everything was negative 229 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:17.080 against homosexuals. And that comes into play too, because I 230 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:21.080 feel that was an important part of Gaycy's psychology and 231 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:23.679 his creation when you look at later what happened to 232 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:27.960 these young boys. Gasey hated himself, and I believe, and 233 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:30.600 many do believe also, that he took it out on 234 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.399 these other young boys because they were something that he 235 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:40.320 would never be. Handsome, young, attractive, cool, and he was 236 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:42.559 never like that, so he took out his rage on 237 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:43.559 these young victims. 238 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.120 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 239 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:52.639 these messages. Now, you talk about that he was hospitalized, 240 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.120 but the strangest thing was it seemed like, and then 241 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.799 you have psychologists to attest to this, that he was 242 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:03.399 having what we would now call a panic attack or 243 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.679 an anxiety attack, and some of the features or the 244 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:10.720 feature of that was that he would pass out unexpectedly. 245 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.399 So tell us about how those anxiety attacks that we 246 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.919 would now recognize, how they were treated. 247 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:23.279 Then well, the further you go back with psychology and 248 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:28.720 psychiatry kind of gets very fuzzy because, especially if you're 249 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.480 looking at the fifties, even through the seventies and maybe 250 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:36.559 even into the eighties, anyone that took anyone to their 251 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:40.639 family to see a psychiatrist. They didn't have therapists back then. 252 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.720 It wasn't like that they had mental institutions and mental 253 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.879 hospitals that they would admit people to. So that was 254 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.679 about it. You know. Even later, when I interviewed Larry Finder, 255 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:54.080 who is the Assistant State's Attorney, he said he couldn't 256 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.159 even go for therapy even if it was available then 257 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.759 because as an attorney, the word would get out and 258 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:04.720 he wouldn't have work anymore. So there was one point where, 259 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:09.319 because of these issues with Gaycy, because of these the 260 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.000 passing out and the seizures, his mother did take him 261 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:16.119 to the hospital and there was a doctor there that 262 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:21.279 asked her to admit Gacy, and she didn't want to, 263 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:24.440 and later she said she wish she wouldn't have done that. 264 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.559 But you also have to realize it's that time period. 265 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:31.200 If she admitted her son and people found out, they'd 266 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.880 be labeled as crazy. That's what they called them back then. 267 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.480 Your son's crazy, your whole family's crazy, and nobody wanted 268 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.200 to be labeled as especially in the nineteen fifties where 269 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:44.400 everyone was supposed to be this perfect family. So it's 270 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:50.519 very interesting that he was presented with these stressors and 271 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:53.319 he had these anxiety and panic attacks. But back then 272 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.640 they didn't know what those were. They had no idea 273 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.200 what panic attacks and anxiety were. And now we could 274 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:05.079 look back, as Kathy does and explain what was going 275 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:06.920 on with Gaysey. And that was very important for me 276 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.519 to do in this mini series because, like I said, 277 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:13.200 I had read many things about Gaysey and his childhood 278 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:16.039 wasn't really fleshed out, and I wanted to make sure 279 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:16.440 I did that. 280 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:22.200 One of the very more interesting topics that you touch 281 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:26.400 on in this film series is the idea that he 282 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:31.319 has some fascination with his mother's panties and then that 283 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.480 behavior continues as he gets a little bit older and 284 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.559 somehow collides or morphs into some of his sexual orientation. 285 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.920 As you have the psychologist explain, can you explain this phenomena? 286 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:51.279 Yeah, it's very interesting. It's a fetish and the panteasing 287 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:55.200 didn't have anything to do with, you know, his homosexual tendencies. 288 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.920 It was more of a fetish. He liked the soft 289 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:02.559 feel of the panties, the silky and what he would 290 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:05.519 do is he would steal panties off clotheslines or from 291 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.759 his mother's drawers and he would masturbate with them because 292 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:14.160 of the soft, silky feel, and because he was so 293 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:18.680 embarrassed of stealing these panties, he would bury them. And 294 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.839 eventually the family did find out and they saw him 295 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.279 bury him one time, and his father forced him to 296 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:29.640 wear the panties all day and belittle him. But what's 297 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.079 interesting is when I went to his childhood home, not 298 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:35.920 his first childhood home, but the second one on Minard. 299 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:39.079 When I went there, the owners let me film the 300 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.160 entire house from top to bottom. So what you're seeing 301 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:46.160 in my miniseries is the inside of Gacy's house where 302 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.839 he grew up from I believe around age ten until 303 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.720 he finally left in his late teen's early twenties. And 304 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:59.000 I had went to the house twice to film. First 305 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:03.599 time filmed all the interior, but I had to go 306 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:05.720 back because I wanted to get the exterior again and 307 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:09.039 another part. And the second time I went, I went 308 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:13.640 downstairs underneath the house and right where the basement is 309 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:19.720 there's like a little area under the porch and when 310 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.799 you look at it, it pretty much looks like a 311 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.279 crawl space. I almost exactly like a crawl space. 312 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:26.599 Wow. 313 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:31.319 And it's that area where Gacy buried the panties. And again, 314 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:36.279 you know, I wanted to make these connections that Gacy 315 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.519 was embarrassed of stealing the panties when he was a child. 316 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:43.000 So what did he do when he was embarrassed by something? 317 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:47.279 He buried it. Now you flash forward later in life 318 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:52.119 when he's burying these young boys under his house and 319 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:57.160 his crawl space, it's the same concept. He was embarrassed, 320 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:00.759 he was shamed, and that's what he did. So I 321 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:04.759 wanted to make a lot of those psychological connections, you know, 322 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:09.920 and his behavior because I had never, you know, really 323 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:13.039 seen that done anywhere, and I thought those things were important. 324 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:17.119 And you know, again, I hope people watch the entire 325 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.880 mini series and then go back and rewatch it because 326 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:24.680 a lot of these issues in episode one and two 327 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.640 and even three come up later in the series. In 328 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:29.039 case his. 329 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:35.440 Life, you have this extraordinary witness that becomes Casey's best 330 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:39.119 friend at a young age, and it's Barry Boshelly and 331 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.279 it's important because we have heard about the abuse from 332 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.400 his father, that he was abusive, but he tells a 333 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:51.519 story that's just more specific about how how much of 334 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:54.920 this abuse did he endure, and how regular was this 335 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:57.079 and of what nature exactly. 336 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:02.640 Yes, and back then there was no child protective services, 337 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:08.160 so again families wanted to keep these issues within the family. Now, 338 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.400 Barry Bishelley, he was friends with Gaycy as a child, 339 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:18.119 and what happened was his doctor was the same family 340 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:23.400 doctor as Gaycy's family, so he heard what happened, you know, 341 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:26.640 through the grapevine, what happened with Gacy. There was this 342 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.720 one point where his father beat him with a two 343 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.519 by four and knocked him out and he was pretty 344 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:35.279 much almost dead, and then the father took him to 345 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:39.720 the doctor. But of course, you know, at that time 346 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:44.519 period again keep it quiet. Oh he fell, this happened, whatever, 347 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.119 you know, and there were no investigations like that. Back then. 348 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:50.720 Everything was kept within the family and in the units. 349 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:53.599 There was nothing. Nothing could be let out in the 350 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.440 fifties that your family is ill or sick or crazy, 351 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.920 or there's something wrong with you. And Barry's a great 352 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.640 resource because he actually was there. He grew up with 353 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.039 John Wayne Gacy, so again it was important for me 354 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:12.039 to have first hand interviewees in this documentary. I wanted 355 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:17.880 friends of Gacy, victims, relative the prosecutors, the detectives, you know, 356 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:21.279 almost everyone except probably three or four people in my 357 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:26.359 documentary met Gaycy, talked to him, prosecuted him, worked with him, 358 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:31.240 Tony Antonucci, who was a survivor who got away from Gacy. 359 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.799 And it was again when I formulated this mini series, 360 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:39.279 I wanted all these important people, and you know, I 361 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.240 got as many as I could, and I was happy 362 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:44.240 with that. But this was such a huge case. I 363 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.640 mean hundreds and hundreds of people involved, and even more 364 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.400 than that when you look at the web of how 365 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.680 many people Gaycy affected and the case affected. 366 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:56.920 Well, you provide this evidence in this film series about 367 00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.559 he tries to fit in at high school by going 368 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:05.720 on a heterosexual date, and you have this dramatic evidence 369 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:09.960 that you provide that he passes out when they're trying 370 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:15.039 to consummate, when they're fooling around with each other. And 371 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:19.200 again psychologically, we relate back to the incredible pressure he 372 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:24.480 has being a homosexual. Having to keep that secret, especially 373 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.240 from his father, would have as his mother said, would 374 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:29.680 have killed him if he would a knew and this 375 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:33.000 idea that he couldn't conform, he couldn't perform. He was 376 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:37.200 not interested in heterosexual sex. And he passed out again. 377 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.640 Yeah, and you could see that that was from the 378 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.640 anxiety and the stress of what he was going through. 379 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:48.000 So again, I do believe there are times where it 380 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.960 was real. But you could have taken him to a 381 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.279 hospital that day and they would have found nothing wrong 382 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:55.880 with him, which is strange, but it's all in his 383 00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:00.519 mind and how his body reacts to that. Interesting with 384 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:06.079 women in Gacy's life, his first wife he had married 385 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:10.480 and lived with in Waterloo. Then his second wife he 386 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.359 had lived with in Chicago with her two daughters. His 387 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:18.160 first wife he had two children with, Michael and Christine, 388 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:23.359 and his second wife, Carol, she brought she had two 389 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:25.759 daughters already and I believe they were I don't know, 390 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:31.200 between six and nine years old. But they were ruses. 391 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:35.240 They were cover ups for Gasey's being a homosexual his 392 00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:40.319 first wife. It's interesting because when you read the newspapers 393 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:44.240 and official reports from the case, there was one account 394 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:49.000 where the prosecutor of the case said that Gasey tied 395 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.960 a young man up to the bed while Gasey was 396 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.240 having sex with his wife, so they were swingers, him 397 00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.880 and his wife. Out there. Gasey was involved in these 398 00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:03.119 illegal gambling and prostitution rings. So eventually, when he was 399 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:05.319 convicted of sodomy on a young man out there, of 400 00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.839 course the first wife divorced him and got the majority 401 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.559