1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,319 Speaker 1: Welcome to Thrilling Threads. Today, we are diving into a 2 00:00:03,359 --> 00:00:07,519 really fascinating and frankly pretty unsettling topic that a lot 3 00:00:07,559 --> 00:00:08,679 of you have sent sources on. 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 2: We are we're looking at those persistent, baffling mysteries of 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,720 people who just seem to vanish in North America's huge 6 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:17,800 national parks and forests. 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: And specifically we're zoning in on a really strange correlation, 8 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:24,920 one that was identified by an investigator named David paul Edes. 9 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:26,719 Speaker 2: He calls it the Barry connection. 10 00:00:26,879 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: The Barry connection. I mean, it sounds almost mundane, but 11 00:00:30,719 --> 00:00:34,159 the idea is that this simple peaceful act of you know, 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,479 foraging for wild berries shows up again and again in 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,000 the profiles of people who just. 14 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,759 Speaker 2: Disappear, yeah, without a trace. 15 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: It seems almost designed to make you afraid of the woods. 16 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,439 Paul Eides lays out this premise that these aren't just 17 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,960 random disappearances. They happen with these bizarre, recurring themes. 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: Right like people vanishing instantly, search dogs completely failing to 19 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:54,560 find a. 20 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: Scent, and then bodies being found miles away, often without 21 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:58,479 any clothing on. 22 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:03,159 Speaker 2: It's deeply it is, and our sources today really force 23 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,560 us to look at this from two completely different angles. 24 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,799 On one side, you have these mysterious, non conventional correlations 25 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:12,280 that Polyides is highlighting, and on the. 26 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:17,159 Speaker 1: Other you have the cold, hard, evidence based explanations from 27 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,519 forensic scientists, from search and rescue experts exactly. 28 00:01:20,599 --> 00:01:23,519 Speaker 2: So our mission today is to really unpack what makes 29 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,480 these cases so baffling to someone like Polyides, and at 30 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,560 the same time why critics say the patterns he's finding 31 00:01:29,599 --> 00:01:31,239 aren't some unknown anomaly. 32 00:01:31,519 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: They're saying it's an artifact. 33 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,879 Speaker 2: An artifact of his own selection process, a classic case 34 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:37,319 of what's called cherry picking. 35 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,359 Speaker 1: So we have to hold both possibilities here, the truly 36 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:43,879 unknown side by side with the rigor of established science. 37 00:01:44,079 --> 00:01:46,760 That's the only way we can really understand this specific 38 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:50,519 wilderness mystery. And you'll give you that definitive shortcut to 39 00:01:50,599 --> 00:01:52,079 being well informed on it all. 40 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So to really get this, we have to start 41 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,959 with the person who kind of built this entire theory 42 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,079 from the ground up, David Polides. 43 00:01:59,159 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Right, He's a form i'mer police officer, spent years in 44 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:05,879 law enforcement, and then he transitioned into investigative journalism, and 45 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:09,319 that's when he started this huge project. He claims it 46 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,280 involved over seven thousand hours of research. 47 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,879 Speaker 2: Which is an enormous amount of time, and all of 48 00:02:14,879 --> 00:02:17,759 that were culminated in his book series Missing four one 49 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:19,680 one and the documentaries that followed. 50 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,719 Speaker 1: The scope of what he looked at is pretty impressive, 51 00:02:21,759 --> 00:02:24,439 even if his methods are heavily criticized. 52 00:02:24,479 --> 00:02:27,199 Speaker 2: For sure, he wasn't just looking at any disappearance. He 53 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:33,560 was looking for very specific patterns across documented cases, children, adults, 54 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,159 the elderly who vanished often when they were right there, 55 00:02:36,319 --> 00:02:38,479 practically inside of friends or family. 56 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: And he mapped them all out meticulously. 57 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: He identified what he claims are twenty eight distinct clusters 58 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,680 of missing people all across the continent. 59 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,439 Speaker 1: And some of these cases go way back, all. 60 00:02:49,319 --> 00:02:51,759 Speaker 2: The way back to the eighteen hundreds in some instances. 61 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,599 Speaker 1: That historical depth is really key to his theory. 62 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 2: Isn't it It is because to him it suggests that 63 00:02:57,159 --> 00:02:59,800 whatever force or phenomenons at work here, it's not new, 64 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:04,800 it's something persistent, something tied to these specific geographical locations. 65 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: So what exactly makes a case unusual in his framework? 66 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,039 What are the criteria for it to get into? The 67 00:03:11,039 --> 00:03:12,120 Missing four one one. 68 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,479 Speaker 2: Files he filters for cases where basically conventional police work 69 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,400 just hits a brick wall. All the leads are exhausted, 70 00:03:19,439 --> 00:03:23,759 there's no evidence, nothing makes sense. Impossible cases the impossible cases, 71 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,280 and in his view, these are the ones that defy 72 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,840 any normal explanation, which is what prompts relatives to start 73 00:03:29,879 --> 00:03:32,680 thinking it must have been a kidnapping or some kind 74 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,719 of you know, external abduction. 75 00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: And from there he starts zooming in on these tiny, 76 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:44,800 seemingly insignificant details that keep repeating across these cases exactly. 77 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,719 Speaker 2: And for him, the consistency of those small, odd facts, 78 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,400 that's the real evidence of a larger mystery at play. 79 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's break down those commonalities. What are the 80 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:56,719 specific recurring traits that he points to as proof of 81 00:03:56,759 --> 00:03:57,960 something strange going on. 82 00:03:58,199 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: The first one is probably the most dramatic, and that's 83 00:04:00,439 --> 00:04:03,280 the recovery location. When a victim is found, they are 84 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:06,879 often miles outside the official search grid, like way outside, 85 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,599 oh yeah, three, five, sometimes even ten miles away. And 86 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:13,400 what's even stronger is that sometimes they're found thousands of 87 00:04:13,439 --> 00:04:15,319 feet uphill from where they went missing. 88 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,319 Speaker 1: Which just defies logic for a lost person, right, yeah, 89 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:19,399 especially a little kid. 90 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: It totally defies the typical profile. A lost person should 91 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,160 follow the path of least resistance, which is almost always downhill, 92 00:04:27,199 --> 00:04:28,759 maybe towards a creek or a road. 93 00:04:29,079 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: So for polydes this is evidence that the person either 94 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,519 traveled at some impossible speed. 95 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: Or well was moved or relocated. 96 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then there's the clothing issue, which I think 97 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,199 is probably the most disturbing part of all of this. 98 00:04:41,319 --> 00:04:44,959 It just screams foul play or yeah, something really wrong. 99 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 2: It's extremely disturbing and it's a huge focus in his work. 100 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:52,399 Children in particular, when they're found, whether they're alive but 101 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,480 confused or deceased, are often naked or just partially. 102 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: Clothed, with the clothes just gone. 103 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,319 Speaker 2: Clothes are just gone. They're never recovered, And for polities 104 00:05:01,399 --> 00:05:05,199 that immediately raises red flags about some kind of external intervention. 105 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,800 Why would a lost cold child take off their only 106 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:10,319 source of warmth and protection. 107 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: And the fact that the clothes themselves are missing, it 108 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:16,319 makes it feel like evidence was taken. It's an incomplete puzzle. 109 00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: It suggests the scene was altered. 110 00:05:17,759 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, then we have the recurring problems with the search itself. 111 00:05:21,319 --> 00:05:23,879 I mean, canines are supposed to be the gold standard. 112 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 2: For this they are, but Pollides points out case after 113 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,160 case where the bloodhounds or other search dogs act bizarrely. Also, 114 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,240 they might not be able to pick up a cent 115 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,439 trail at all, even just moments after the person vanished. 116 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,879 Or they'll follow a cent for a little way and 117 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:42,920 then just stop. They'll act confused, spin in circles, or 118 00:05:42,959 --> 00:05:46,480 refuse to go any further, like the trail just ended exactly, 119 00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:48,399 like the person was just lifted out of the area 120 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:51,560 or passed through some kind of barrier that just erased 121 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,560 their scent signature. It's a common pattern he highlights across. 122 00:05:55,199 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: All the clusters, and finally he collects some correlations that 123 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,639 I mean, they really seem to stretch the bounds of coincidence. 124 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:03,160 They feel almost targeted. 125 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,399 Speaker 2: And this is where his methodology gets the most criticism. 126 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,920 He notes these factors that seem totally random, but he 127 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,759 suggests they're part of this mystery profile, like what the 128 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,240 source material brings up an example of two missing women 129 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,000 in one area whose names both started with A and 130 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,800 were three letters long, Amy and Ann. Or in other clusters, 131 00:06:21,879 --> 00:06:24,959 it might be a shared nationality or specific birth dates 132 00:06:25,079 --> 00:06:26,040 among the victims. 133 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,639 Speaker 1: Critics would jump all over that. 134 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,959 Speaker 2: And they do. They argue that this is a classic 135 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,680 example of a human cognitive bias called aperphenia, you know, 136 00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:37,759 seeing patterns in random noise, rather than evidence of some 137 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,040 actual external force at work. 138 00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So central to Paul Ady's whole narrative isn't just 139 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,480 the weird data, it's the environment he's collecting it in. 140 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:48,759 He talks a lot about institutional resistance. 141 00:06:48,959 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: Yes, this is huge for him. It fuels that hole 142 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,839 them versus Us narrative. He claims the National Park Service, 143 00:06:56,879 --> 00:07:00,480 the NPS, has actively blocked his access to the data 144 00:07:00,519 --> 00:07:01,079 he needs. 145 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: He filed a Freedom of Information Act request right at 146 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:04,759 a FIA. 147 00:07:04,519 --> 00:07:07,879 Speaker 2: Request he did. He wanted a single consolidated list of 148 00:07:07,959 --> 00:07:11,040 all the people missing within National Park jurisdictions, and he 149 00:07:11,079 --> 00:07:13,800 alleges they came back and quoted him an insane fee 150 00:07:13,839 --> 00:07:16,759 of one point four million dollars to get that list. 151 00:07:16,759 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: One point four million dollars. I mean, that's just that's staggering. 152 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:21,720 It's designed to stop you in your tracks. 153 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: Whether it was a literal cost estimate or just a 154 00:07:25,399 --> 00:07:29,000 bureaucratic way of saying go away, the effect is the same. 155 00:07:29,319 --> 00:07:32,519 It creates a total lack of transparency. 156 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:33,639 Speaker 1: Right, And the core issue for him is that the 157 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,639 NPS doesn't seem to keep a centralized, public facing, searchable 158 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,680 list of these disappearances exactly. 159 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,639 Speaker 2: The NPS has always said that, you know, individual parks 160 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,240 track their own incidents, but there's no single nationwide database 161 00:07:48,319 --> 00:07:51,639 that researchers or the public can easily access. And this 162 00:07:51,879 --> 00:07:55,360 institutional silence is seen by a Polytis and his followers 163 00:07:55,399 --> 00:07:57,360 as more than just negligence. 164 00:07:57,639 --> 00:07:59,759 Speaker 1: They see it as an active cover up, an active 165 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,240 and when you have an absence of official, consolidated data 166 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:06,680 like that, you create a perfect vacuum, and non scientific 167 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,800 theories are always going to rush in to fill that void. 168 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. When the public sees 169 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:17,040 institutions as secretive or obstructive, their confidence just plummets and 170 00:08:17,079 --> 00:08:20,360 they become way more open to non conventional explanations. 171 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,639 Speaker 1: And police is very skilled at using that lack of 172 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:24,519 transparency to his advantage. 173 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: He is he uses it to justify looking at phenomena 174 00:08:29,199 --> 00:08:32,399 beyond the conventional, basically saying, look, if they won't give 175 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,960 us the official story, we have to look everywhere else. 176 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,519 Speaker 1: Even critics would agree that if the data were just 177 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,000 open and accessible. It would take a lot of the 178 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:41,720 fuel out of these speculative fires. 179 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,159 Speaker 2: Absolutely objective, accessible data would remove that institutional ambiguity that 180 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,080 the whole narrative feeds on. 181 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: Okay, so on one side you have these genuinely baffling 182 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,519 case details, these weird patterns, and this wall of institutional resistance. 183 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,600 But the main critique of Polity's entire body of work 184 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:08,559 hangs on one pretty devastating scientific flaw cherry picking. Cherry picking. 185 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 2: And we really have to define this concept rigorously because 186 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,120 it's the thing that undermines the entire statistical foundation of 187 00:09:15,159 --> 00:09:16,080 missing four one one. 188 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: So what is it? Fundamentally? 189 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: At its core, cherry picking is the deliberate practice of 190 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,720 selecting and presenting only the results or the data points 191 00:09:23,799 --> 00:09:25,519 or the anecdotes that support. 192 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: Your hypothesis and ignoring everything that doesn't. 193 00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: Fit, consciously ignoring or just omitting anything that contradicts it 194 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,559 or is irrelevant or you know, shows no effect at all. 195 00:09:34,639 --> 00:09:37,759 Speaker 1: It sounds like academic fraud, Like a chef who makes 196 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:41,039 ten cakes, nine of them are burnt disasters, but he 197 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,120 only shows you the one perfect one and claims that's 198 00:09:44,159 --> 00:09:44,960 how they all turn out. 199 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:47,799 Speaker 2: That is a perfect analogy. The name itself comes from 200 00:09:47,799 --> 00:09:51,440 harvesting fruit, right. A cherry picker only grabs the ripest, 201 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,320 most perfect cherries. 202 00:09:53,039 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: And if that's all you see in the basket. 203 00:09:54,759 --> 00:09:58,159 Speaker 2: You would wrongly assume the entire orchard is pristine and 204 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,000 of uniformly excellent quality. Gives you a completely false picture 205 00:10:02,039 --> 00:10:03,919 of all the information that's actually available. 206 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,879 Speaker 1: So why do people do this, I mean, especially researchers, 207 00:10:06,919 --> 00:10:08,360 given the professional risks. 208 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: Well, the sources suggests that even though it's you know, 209 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,440 hugely discouraged in theory, it's still pretty common in practice because. 210 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,639 Speaker 1: Of pressure, pressure to publish, pressure. 211 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 2: To publish, pressure to get results. There's this strong kind 212 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,720 of unspoken idea in a lot of scientific and investigative 213 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,320 fields that unsuccessful studies aren't useful, or that you know, 214 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,639 messy equivocal findings just don't have that publishable punch. 215 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: So people feel pushed to present a clean, definitive story, 216 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,159 even if it means filtering out the messy reality of. 217 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 2: The data exactly. But the damage from that selective filtering 218 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,960 is profound. It completely tanks your credibility. 219 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:49,879 Speaker 1: Absolutely when you only present the stuff that supports your claim, 220 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,639 your findings can't be replicated, and the whole work just 221 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,360 loses credibility. 222 00:10:53,759 --> 00:10:56,639 Speaker 2: And it leads straight to generalization, where you take this tiny, 223 00:10:56,759 --> 00:10:59,480 selected sliver of data and you stretch it to apply 224 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,039 to a whole population. 225 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: Which is what Paulite is accused of doing. He's taking 226 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,000 the strange characteristics of a few dozen really difficult cases 227 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:12,440 the selected fruit, and using them to characterize all wilderness disappearances. 228 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: The selection process itself introduces this massive, insurmountable bias right 229 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:17,879 from the start. 230 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: Okay, to make this less abstract, let's look at some 231 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:23,279 real world examples that are sources cited. They really illustrate 232 00:11:23,279 --> 00:11:27,080 the danger here. Let's start with the cancer research lie. 233 00:11:27,159 --> 00:11:28,320 That sounds terrifying. 234 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 2: It's a really profound ethical warning. So an unnamed researcher 235 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,440 published this big paper showing they had successfully inhibited tumor 236 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:36,879 growth in animals. 237 00:11:36,639 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: A potential breakthrough, a huge deal. 238 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,519 Speaker 2: But then later another researcher, Glenn Begley, he tried to 239 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,480 replicate the study, and he failed over and over again. 240 00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: So he couldn't get the same results. 241 00:11:48,799 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: Not at all. And when Begley finally met with the 242 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,799 original researcher, the truth came out. It turns out they 243 00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:59,000 had run twelve full trials. Only one of those twelve 244 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,840 trials had actually produced the successful. 245 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: Result, and that was the only one they published. 246 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: The single positive result was the only one that ever 247 00:12:06,399 --> 00:12:07,279 saw the light of day. 248 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: Wow, a one in twelve success rate presented as a 249 00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:15,000 definitive finding. The implications of that are just enormous. 250 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: They are The failure to publish the eleven null results 251 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,919 meant that an entire branch of subsequent research, wasting millions 252 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,159 of dollars and who knows how much time, was completely misled, 253 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,039 all based on a statistical outlier that could have just 254 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,120 been random chance. 255 00:12:29,279 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: It shows how cherry picking goes way beyond just being dishonest. 256 00:12:32,879 --> 00:12:35,320 It affects real life altering decisions. 257 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,919 Speaker 2: It does. And there's another more public example, the daycare scare. 258 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: Ah I think I remember this. 259 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,639 Speaker 2: An author named Eric Sigmund published a paper about the 260 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,639 effects of early childhood daycare, and the sources say that 261 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,320 Sigmund only used information that supported his negative claims about 262 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:52,559 the developmental impacts. 263 00:12:52,639 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: He only picked the scary studies. 264 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,919 Speaker 2: He only picked the scary studies, which led to this 265 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,840 super provocative and frankly miss leading headline in the Daily Mail. 266 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,960 Of course, the headline was sending babies and toddlers to 267 00:13:06,039 --> 00:13:08,879 daycare could do untold damage to the development of their 268 00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:10,240 brains and their future health. 269 00:13:10,519 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: So the media sensationalized the negative conclusion. But the conclusion 270 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,919 itself was already based on selectively chosen evidence. It wasn't 271 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:19,919 the full picture of. 272 00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:23,159 Speaker 2: The research exactly. So the cherry picking process led directly 273 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,000 to public fear, all based on incomplete data, which. 274 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: Brings us right back to missing four one one. If 275 00:13:29,399 --> 00:13:31,679 we accept that this is the method selecting only the 276 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,840 evidence that supports your claim, how does this apply to 277 00:13:34,879 --> 00:13:37,720 Politi's findings, especially this Bury connection. 278 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,519 Speaker 2: The sources are very firm on this. Critics, you know, 279 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,600 data scientists who have tried to analyze his published patterns. 280 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:48,320 They all conclude that Paulite's correlations, the canine failure, the 281 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,480 impossible distance, the missing clothes are fundamentally artifacts of the 282 00:13:53,519 --> 00:13:54,480 selection process. 283 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: They're not genuine statistical anomalies. 284 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: No, they argue, he intentionally filters his data right from 285 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,240 the start. He's looking for cases that involve two specific things. First, 286 00:14:04,759 --> 00:14:06,279 maximum search and rescue. 287 00:14:06,039 --> 00:14:07,799 Speaker 1: Difficulty, hardest cases. 288 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,279 Speaker 2: Hardest cases, and second, maximum atypical recovery circumstances. 289 00:14:12,519 --> 00:14:15,759 Speaker 1: So he takes the metrics of search and rescue failure, 290 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,320 which you'd expect to see when a search goes really wrong, 291 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,120 and then he reinterprets them. 292 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: He reinterprets them as signs of something mystical or non conventional. 293 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: Okay, let's break that down with an example. So say 294 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,159 a hunter gets lost in a dense forest, but search 295 00:14:29,159 --> 00:14:32,480 and rescue finds them alive and fully closed within four hours. 296 00:14:32,679 --> 00:14:35,519 Speaker 2: That case is solved, its successful, so it's excluded from 297 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:36,639 the four to one one profile. 298 00:14:36,799 --> 00:14:40,159 Speaker 1: But if that same hundred disappears and a huge storm 299 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,960 rolls in, wiping out the scent trail, and he's found 300 00:14:44,039 --> 00:14:48,159 months later, partially clothed, miles from where he started. 301 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,679 Speaker 2: That case gets included. That's the statistical bias in action. 302 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,360 The commonalities Polytes finds, the dog failure, the weird travel, 303 00:14:56,519 --> 00:14:59,039 they aren't the mysterious causes of the disappearance. 304 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,399 Speaker 1: They're just indications of how hard the case was to 305 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:01,919 solve in the. 306 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: First place, or how catastrophic the environmental conditions were. He's 307 00:15:06,159 --> 00:15:09,360 essentially studying only the failure points of search and rescue 308 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:13,120 and then claiming those failure points are proof of something supernatural, and. 309 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: This leads us to the biggest statistical flaw that critics. 310 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:18,799 Speaker 2: Point out, the failure to establish a control group. 311 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: Right, which is non negotiable in any kind of real 312 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,480 scientific analysis. 313 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:26,639 Speaker 2: Absolutely, to prove that barry pickers are a statistical anomaly, 314 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,000 that they disappear in a way that's truly unusual, polids 315 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,360 would have to normalize their disappearance rate. He'd need to 316 00:15:32,399 --> 00:15:36,000 compare it against a baseline, a baseline of other comparable 317 00:15:36,039 --> 00:15:39,440 off trail activities. We need to ask how many people 318 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,600 go missing while they're hunting in the same area, or fishing, 319 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,240 or doing remote photography in the same parks during the 320 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:46,960 same seasons. 321 00:15:47,519 --> 00:15:51,039 Speaker 1: Without that comparison group, the pattern he's seeing is meaningless. 322 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: It's inherently biased. It's derived only from the most difficult, 323 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,480 most tragic cases that already fit his initial criteria for 324 00:15:58,559 --> 00:15:59,360 being unusual. 325 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,559 Speaker 1: So the analysis has to shift. Instead of asking what 326 00:16:03,639 --> 00:16:07,639 strange force is causing all this, the forensic analysis asks 327 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,080 a different question, right. 328 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,039 Speaker 2: It asks how does the specific environment of berry picking 329 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,440 inherently create these specific common markers of SAR failure? 330 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: And that question is the bridge to the next part 331 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,000 of this, we stop looking for an unknown anomaly and. 332 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: We start looking at the known lethality of the environment 333 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:27,480 and the predictable physiological responses of a lost human being. 334 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:30,679 Speaker 1: Okay, so if the big methodological flaw is cherry picking, 335 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,240 then the forensic explanation has to be able to scientifically 336 00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:36,039 account for those data points he selected. 337 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,159 Speaker 2: It does. It has to explain the weirdness. 338 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: So why does forensic analysis say that the barry connection 339 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,960 people vanishing while picking berries is actually a statistically predictable 340 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,360 outcome and not some strange anomaly. 341 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,039 Speaker 2: Well, the explanation really comes down to the intersection of 342 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,000 two very powerful factors, what they call environmental optimization and 343 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,559 pathological progression. 344 00:16:56,759 --> 00:16:57,639 Speaker 1: Okay, what does that mean. 345 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: Basically, the habitat where you find high yield wild berries 346 00:17:01,879 --> 00:17:05,400 is by its very nature a higher risk zone, and 347 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,759 then the human psychological and physiological response to getting lost 348 00:17:09,759 --> 00:17:13,440 in that specific habitat dictates the strange recovery outcomes that 349 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:14,480 Paulades is citing. 350 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:19,279 Speaker 1: So let's unpack environmental optimization first. Why is a huckleberry 351 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:22,880 patch so much more dangerous than say, an open meadow 352 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,119 or a managed trail. 353 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: Because it forces you into what's called deep wilderness penetration. 354 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:28,920 To get the good berries, the high yield ones like 355 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,559 huckleberries or certain wild riseberries, the plants need very specific 356 00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:38,200 conditions what dense cover, filtered light, undisturbed soil, and research 357 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,079 from places like Glacier National Park confirms this. One study 358 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,400 showed that ninety four percent of the black huckleberry shrubs 359 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,680 they looked at were located more than one hundred meters 360 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,640 from any human recreation trail. 361 00:17:50,839 --> 00:17:54,039 Speaker 1: Wow, one hundred meters. So the very act of going 362 00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:57,599 for the prize the berries requires you to step off 363 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,480 the safe established network. 364 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: And immediately enter what's called a high friction environment, an 365 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,759 environment that is optimized for getting lost. 366 00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: This habitat structure leads right to what you mentioned, instantaneous concealment. 367 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:12,039 Speaker 2: Or visibility failure. Yeah. When a person, especially a small 368 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,200 child or an older person with limited mobility, steps just 369 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,160 behind a dense thicket of these shrubs, they are instantly 370 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:18,839 gone from sight. 371 00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: In sound too, I'd imagine. 372 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, the thick foliage acts as an acoustic dampener, so 373 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,839 yelling for them, trying to communicate verbally becomes extremely difficult. 374 00:18:28,079 --> 00:18:31,079 Speaker 1: So this rapid isolation, that's the point of separation they 375 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:32,960 talk about in so many of these missing For one 376 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:33,920 win cases. 377 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 2: It is the search starts from a position of almost 378 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,200 zero visibility and high uncertainty, which forces a delay, and 379 00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:43,799 in the wilderness, any delay can be lethal. 380 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: We also have to talk about the timing. Poll Aids 381 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,440 often notes that these disappearances happen right before a big 382 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,640 storm or during a period of bad weather. 383 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,559 Speaker 2: And the forensic analysis turns that from a weird coincidence 384 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,680 into a crucial causal factor. The season for foraging, late 385 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,920 summer early autumn is also peak season for environmental instability. 386 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:06,160 Sudden storms sudden severe storms that can pop up out 387 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,119 of nowhere, and they rapidly accelerate your exposure, which maximizes 388 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,960 the risk of acute hypothermia. 389 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: And crucially it affects the search massively. 390 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 2: Heavy rain and high winds will completely destroy any viable 391 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,519 ground scent, sometimes in minutes. This perfectly explains the extremely 392 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:26,240 high rate of canine search failure that polytes find so mysterious. 393 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: So the weather is a dual accelerant. It makes things 394 00:19:28,759 --> 00:19:31,039 more lethal for the victim, and at the same time 395 00:19:31,039 --> 00:19:33,519 it makes the job of search and rescue exponentially harder. 396 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: Exactly and beyond the weather in the foliage, the environment 397 00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:40,480 itself is optimized for conflict, meaning wildlife we have to 398 00:19:40,519 --> 00:19:46,079 consider resource conflict. Huckleberries specifically are a critical late season 399 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,720 food for apex. 400 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: Omnivores like grizzly bears. 401 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,559 Speaker 2: Particularly grizzly bears in the western US. So by going 402 00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:55,880 into these dense off trail areas during peak foraging season, 403 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,920 human pickers are walking directly into prime wildlife feeding. 404 00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: And while a direct predator attack is probably. 405 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,279 Speaker 2: Rare, it is rare, but just increasing that interaction substantially 406 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:10,640 elevates the probability of a sudden adverse encounter. And any 407 00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:14,799 sudden encounter, even if it's not lethal, could cause a paniced, 408 00:20:14,839 --> 00:20:19,640 disoriented person to just flee in a completely irrational direction. 409 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: Okay, that covers the environment. Let's shift to the pathological 410 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,920 progression side of it. This is what's supposed to explain 411 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,680 the really inexplicable behavior Pallide's highlights, like the rapid impossible travel. 412 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: This is where lost person behavior or LPV profiles come in. 413 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,279 It's a core field of study in search and rescue analysis. 414 00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:39,079 Speaker 1: So what happens to a person when they realize they're lost. 415 00:20:39,079 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 2: Their brain is flooded with acute overwhelming stress, and it 416 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,960 basically reverts to a primitive state. It's called cognitive narrowing 417 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:48,880 or cognitive load saturation. 418 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,039 Speaker 1: The thinking part of your brain shuts down pretty much. 419 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,839 Speaker 2: The rational planning functions of your prefrontal cortex get completely 420 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,000 hijacked by the fear response in your amignala. You start 421 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,519 making irrational disc visions, you miss obvious trail signs, and 422 00:21:02,599 --> 00:21:05,519 you can engage in what's called runaway behavior, which is 423 00:21:05,839 --> 00:21:09,119 rapid illogical movement away from the point where you got separated, 424 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,319 just pure panic. 425 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: So the impossible travel distance isn't impossible at all, It's 426 00:21:13,759 --> 00:21:17,400 just an indicator of pure uncontrolled panic energy. 427 00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:22,559 Speaker 2: Precisely, a frantic, irrational adult or child can cover way 428 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:26,279 more ground, way faster than a calm, rational person would 429 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:28,920 ever think is possible. This is what accounts for children 430 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,920 being found so far away. Their small size lets them 431 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,640 crawl through stuff an adult can't, and their panic response 432 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,200 is even more accelerated. 433 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:39,559 Speaker 1: The sources also say that these LPB profiles show that 434 00:21:39,599 --> 00:21:44,359 lost people instinctively follow the path of least resistance, usually downhill, 435 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,079 and often head for water. 436 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,559 Speaker 2: Right which directly counters Polliday's big point about subjects traveling 437 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,559 uphill against logic. While some specific profiles, maybe lost hunters 438 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,279 or people with certain disorders, might move laterally or uphill, 439 00:21:59,759 --> 00:22:03,880 the vast majority of panicking children and adults move downhill. 440 00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:07,599 Speaker 1: They hear running water and think I'll lead to civilization. 441 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: Mistakenly yes, which explains why SAR analyses show that something 442 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,880 like seventeen point six percent of victims are ultimately found 443 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,000 near water. The small percentage that do travel uphill are 444 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:20,960 statistical outliers. 445 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,839 Speaker 1: That Pollides would then select to support his narrative of 446 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,720 strangeness exactly. Okay, now we have to tackle the most 447 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,480 sensational part of the recovery. Victims found naked, sometimes in 448 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:33,400 areas that have already been searched. The sources are definitive 449 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,519 on this. They say it's not an abduction, it's not 450 00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:36,039 a ritual. 451 00:22:36,079 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 2: It's a well documented medical phenomenon called paradoxical undressing. 452 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,079 Speaker 1: And this is the critical point. This is the thing 453 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,759 that directly explains the most bizarre physical evidence in these cases. 454 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,519 It's a physiological collapse, not a choice. 455 00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 2: It's not a choice, not an external intervention. It's a 456 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:56,960 terminal symptom of severe acute hypothermia, which is an extremely 457 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,960 common cause of death in these wilderess disappearances. 458 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: Can you walk us through the actual mechanism? How does 459 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,079 a person who is freezing to death suddenly feel hot 460 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,960 enough to start taking off their clothes? 461 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,559 Speaker 2: So as the body's core temperature is plummeting the regulatory 462 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,759 center in the brain, the hypothalamus, it just fails. It 463 00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:17,279 gives up. 464 00:23:17,599 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: Okay. 465 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: Normally, your body tries to keep warm blood near your 466 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,759 core organs by constricting the blood vessels in your skin. 467 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:27,680 It's called vasoconstriction. But in the final stage of hypothermia, 468 00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:31,200 the muscles controlling those vessels suddenly fail and relax. 469 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: It's called vasodilation, right. 470 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 2: And that causes a sudden massive rush of warm blood 471 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,920 from your core right back out to the surface of 472 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:38,359 your skin. 473 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: And that rush of blood creates the feeling of being hot. 474 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,319 Speaker 2: An intense, delusional feeling of being suddenly unbearably hot. It 475 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,079 leads to a frantic primal reaction. They start stripping off 476 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,799 their clothes, sometimes in a frenzy, right before they die. 477 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: That perfectly explains why someone might be found naked in 478 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,119 the snow and why their clothes are scattered or just 479 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,319 gone because they might be running and strip at the 480 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:01,160 same time. 481 00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: Exactly, and this is often linked to another behavior called 482 00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:04,920 terminal burrowing. 483 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,039 Speaker 1: Right tell us about. 484 00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:10,079 Speaker 2: That paradoxical undressing often happens at the same time as 485 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,240 terminal burrowing, where the person in this state of profound 486 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:18,319 confusion seeks out a small, confined space to hide under 487 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:21,519 a log in a dense thicket, even in a crawl space. 488 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: A primal instinct to hide from the coal Right. 489 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,839 Speaker 2: And that behavior, combined with the dense berry thickets providing 490 00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:31,799 immediate concealment, completely resolves the mystery of how bodies can 491 00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:35,000 be found in areas that were previously cleared by search teams. 492 00:24:35,319 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: So all the factors that Paul leads flags as evidence 493 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,240 of a mystery, the canine failure, the impossible distance, the 494 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,359 missing closed. To a forensic analyst, they're just the predictable 495 00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:49,720 sequential outcomes of a person getting lost in a high 496 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:50,599 friction environment. 497 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: Its environmental optimization followed by acute panic and then physiological collapse. 498 00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:57,960 The sources even give us the data to back this up. 499 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:58,759 Speaker 1: What are the numbers? 500 00:24:59,079 --> 00:25:02,559 Speaker 2: Eighty one percent of these difficult cases involve canine failure. 501 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,519 That's not supernatural, that's just scent being destroyed by weather 502 00:25:06,759 --> 00:25:09,920 or human contamination. And sixteen point four percent of victims 503 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,960 are found in previously searched areas. That's not them being 504 00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:15,880 moved that search or fatigue and natural concealment. 505 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: And critically, most of those found and searched areas were kids. 506 00:25:19,079 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: Fifty nine out of sixty one of the alive subjects 507 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,279 found in previously searched areas were miners. They're the exact 508 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:29,400 demographic most likely to engage in that burrowing behavior and 509 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,559 be completely hidden by dense foliage. 510 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,799 Speaker 1: So the forensic conclusion is pretty rigorous. The very connection 511 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,519 is a high risk trigger that pushes people into an 512 00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:41,680 environment optimized for a failed recovery, where predictable human panic 513 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,920 and physiology takeover, leading to outcomes that only seem inexplicable 514 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,119 if you ignore the science. 515 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,799 Speaker 2: Right, if you ignore the well documented science of lost 516 00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:53,720 person behavior and hypothermia. Okay, So, while that forensic view 517 00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:57,799 offers these really powerful, compelling explanations for the physical commonalities 518 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:00,359 pollite sites, his work doesn't stop there. 519 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. He uses that lack of institutional data 520 00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:08,319 and the genuinely strange nature of some of these reports 521 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:08,920 to pivot. 522 00:26:09,079 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: He pivots hard into non conventional theories, and you see 523 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,640 this most clearly in his documentary Missing four one one. 524 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,039 The UFO connection. 525 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: This is where we really leave the world of forensic 526 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,839 science and enter the realm of pure anecdote and speculation. 527 00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:25,279 And he justifies this by saying these cases fit a 528 00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:28,200 profile that law enforcement just refuses to acknowledge. 529 00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:31,079 Speaker 2: It broughtens this criteria here a lot. He moves from 530 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:36,079 these circumstantial commonalities to alleged physical encounters, and they often 531 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,039 involve hunters in these really remote, deep wilderness spots. 532 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,279 Speaker 1: So let's start with one of the most remarkable stories 533 00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:45,400 from the sources, the elk abduction case in Washington State. 534 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, this one really stands out because of the number 535 00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:49,920 of witnesses and how credible they were. 536 00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: Fifteen witnesses, all of them were tree planters working for 537 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,119 a big lumber company, all watching this happen on a hillside. 538 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,960 That's a huge consistency factor. 539 00:26:58,039 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 2: It is. So these fifteen workers all together watched a 540 00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:04,480 UFO fly up a valley, hover directly over an elk, 541 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:06,640 and then it picked the elk up and just carried 542 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:07,000 it away. 543 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,599 Speaker 1: But the key detail, the one that they all agreed 544 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,599 on in their separate interviews, was that. 545 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: There was no visible cable, no grappling hook, no net, 546 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,440 no snandered mechanical way for the craft to physically grab 547 00:27:19,519 --> 00:27:22,960 and lift an animal that big. It just lifted off 548 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:23,279 with it. 549 00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:25,519 Speaker 1: And the reaction from these guys, I mean they were 550 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,519 seasoned wilderness workers, not tourists. Their reaction says a lot. 551 00:27:29,839 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 2: The fear was profound. The sources say they were deemed 552 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,680 ultra credible because their stories were so consistent and they 553 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,599 had no motive to make this up, and they refused 554 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:40,640 to go back to that area. 555 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,799 Speaker 1: They were scared they'd be next. 556 00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:44,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what they said. And Pallides connects this right 557 00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:47,440 back to the missing four one one profile. He says, look, 558 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,920 if a huge animal like an elk is just picked 559 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,839 up and carried away, its tracks would just bluntly stop 560 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:53,319 in the middle of. 561 00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: A trail, mirroring the way a missing person's trail just 562 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,920 suddenly vanishes. The thing that confuses the search dogs exact. 563 00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: It provides an alternative, non physiological explanation for those sudden 564 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,400 cutoffs that the canines can't flow. 565 00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:10,319 Speaker 1: And this narrative thread leads us to another really extraordinary case. 566 00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:13,440 This is the story of Carl an Elk Hunter in Wyoming. 567 00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 2: Carl's case is I mean, it's wild, it's unique because 568 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,480 of the alleged medical and ballistic evidence left behind. 569 00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: So he was allegedly abducted and then sent back. 570 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,079 Speaker 2: Right, he was reportedly taken aboard some kind of craft 571 00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:31,559 and here's the first fuckl anomaly. Years before this, Carl 572 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,519 had had chronic tuberculosis, which left very distinct scars. 573 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,279 Speaker 1: On his lungs visible on an X ray. 574 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: Clearly visible. After this bizarre experience, he was taken to 575 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,319 a local hospital and his doctor allegedly came in and said, Carl, 576 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,000 this is a miracle. Udberculosis scars are gone. 577 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,119 Speaker 1: A complete inexplicable physical healing. And Carl had a theory 578 00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:53,039 about how it happened. 579 00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 2: He did. He linked it to something that happened on 580 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,359 the craft. He said he was told to walk behind 581 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,000 the strange glowing X ray panel. Believed whatever energy or 582 00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:04,599 tech they used to scan him also maybe inadvertently healed 583 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:05,319 his lung tissue. 584 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,799 Speaker 1: He also said they rejected him. 585 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, he claimed they told him you are nobody that 586 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,240 we need which he thought was maybe because he'd had 587 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,160 a vasectomy, and then they told him we're gonna send 588 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:15,599 you back. 589 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:19,799 Speaker 1: Now, this alleged abduction also involved a physical confrontation, and 590 00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:25,160 this is where Paulie claims there's actual scientific, examinable evidence. 591 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,839 Speaker 2: Carl said he fired his weapon at the craft during 592 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,480 the encounter, and a flattened bullet was recovered. According to 593 00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:36,559 Polyt's sources, that bullet was examined by the Wyoming Ballistics Department, 594 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,400 and what did they find? They reportedly confirmed that the 595 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,359 bullet had hit something very unusual. It hadn't mushroomed like 596 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,519 it would if it hit steel or concrete. It was 597 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:47,960 flattened in a way that suggested it hit some unknown, 598 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,759 incredibly resilient material. 599 00:29:50,279 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: But the bullet is now missing. 600 00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: Right yeah. Poullet Iss notes that tragically, the location of 601 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,640 this unique piece of physical evidence is now unknown, so 602 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,559 it can't be verified by anyone else, but he uses 603 00:30:01,599 --> 00:30:04,519 that initial report as powerful circumstantial evidence. 604 00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: And Carl's recovery when search and rescue found him was 605 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:08,480 just as baffling. 606 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: They found him exhibiting profoundly bizarre behavior. He was apparently 607 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,759 looking frantically up at the sky, asking over and over 608 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,279 where's my elk. 609 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: Which paul Aides attributes to the trauma of being abducted 610 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:21,720 and relocated. 611 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,079 Speaker 2: Right, but the most inexplicable detail was his truck. Sur 612 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,880 teams later found Carl's truck sitting in the middle of 613 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,079 a muddy swamp with zero tire tracks leading into it, 614 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,720 none at all. None. They had to spend a whole 615 00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:37,759 day winching it out, which means he couldn't have driven 616 00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:40,000 it in there and gotten stuck. The only other conclusion 617 00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:41,480 is that it was placed there, and. 618 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: Paul Edes uses this detail to suggest an explanation for 619 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,960 a common finding and missing person's cases he does. 620 00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 2: He interprets Carl being dropped by the entities, which allegedly 621 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,880 caused a severe shoulder injury, as a potential reason why 622 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,880 so many missing people are just written off by investigators 623 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,599 as having fallen off a cliff or a mountain. 624 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: When there's no body or no logical place for them 625 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:03,279 to have fallen from. 626 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,079 Speaker 2: Right, The physical trauma is real, but the cause, he suggests, 627 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:10,000 might be external and non conventional. 628 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: So these cases start to push the whole narrative into 629 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,839 the interdimensional. It's a concept he explicitly explores moving beyond 630 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,200 just physical craft to the idea of localized spatial anomalies. 631 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. In the DVD extras for one of his documentaries, 632 00:31:24,359 --> 00:31:27,920 Paul Eydes introduces a retired FBI agent, and this agent 633 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,440 claimed his own case files were the basis for the 634 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,440 first season of The X Files. 635 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: Which adds a lot of weight and credibility to the 636 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,440 story he's telling. 637 00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 2: For sure, and this agent confirmed his belief that multidimensions 638 00:31:39,279 --> 00:31:42,640 and portals are one hundred percent real phenomena that he 639 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,400 actually investigated during his career. 640 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: And the idea of portals serves a very specific function 641 00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:49,480 in the missing form one model, doesn't. 642 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,759 Speaker 2: It It does. It provides a non scientific mechanism to 643 00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:55,640 explain those absolutely instantaneous vanishings. 644 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: The ones where a child is holding a parent's hand 645 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,960 one second and it's just gone the next exactly. 646 00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: The agent pointed out that in real life, no kid 647 00:32:03,079 --> 00:32:06,079 could disappear that fast unless they were literally stepping into 648 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,240 an adjacent dimension or through some kind of invisible doorway. 649 00:32:09,559 --> 00:32:11,960 It explains the lack of struggle, the lack of scent, 650 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,799 the instantaneous nature of it. 651 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: And finally, Paullage collects one more seemingly random coincidence in 652 00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:22,400 the same area where Carl vanished. He calls it the 653 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,519 German hunter cluster. 654 00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:27,519 Speaker 2: In that same cluster of disappearances, Polly's identified a series 655 00:32:27,559 --> 00:32:29,799 of missing hunters who were all of German descent. 656 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: But there's no big German community. 657 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,079 Speaker 2: In that area, none at all. A lot of these 658 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,279 hunters had traveled hundreds, even thousands of miles from other 659 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:41,680 states to hunt in that specific spot. So Paully's catalogs 660 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,000 this strange coincidence of national heritage as part of the mystery. 661 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: Profile, suggesting maybe some kind of selective targeting mechanism. 662 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 2: Exactly, it's an observation that defies any known demographic or 663 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,480 sociological pattern, so for him it has to be part 664 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,039 of the mystery. 665 00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: So after all of that, what does this all mean? 666 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:02,279 We've looked at the same set of facts through two 667 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:03,759 profoundly different lenses. 668 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 2: We have we started with this idea of a specific, 669 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,480 inexplicable link between picking berries and vanishing, as identified by Pollate, and. 670 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: Then we broke down the methodological flaws the cherry picking, 671 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:17,279 the lack of a control group, and we offered these 672 00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:21,119 rigorous scientific explanations for the baffling outcomes. 673 00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:24,039 Speaker 2: Things like paradoxical undressing and runaway behavior. 674 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: Right, So the forensic conclusion really synthesizes this whole conflict perfectly. 675 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:32,519 Speaker 2: It does. The Bury connection is a compelling correlation. Paul 676 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:35,559 Eggs was right that he found commonalities in a subset 677 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,480 of cases, but it's derived from high risk behavior in 678 00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:42,640 an environment that's just optimized for a failed recovery. 679 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: So the commonalities he found aren't signs of a mystery 680 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,119 that the predictable consequences of environmental friction meeting human physiology. 681 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 2: In this view, the ultimate cause of these tragedies is 682 00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:58,359 that intersection of predictable human behavior panic cognitive narrowing, heading downhill, 683 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,759 and environmental factors like dense foliage and sent destroying storms. 684 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,839 Speaker 1: And that all leads very quickly to physiological collapse. 685 00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: The swift, unobservable journey from just being disoriented to death 686 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,760 in dense cover mediated by these established biological processes explains everything. 687 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,159 It explains why a victim can be found miles away 688 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,840 and a place that was already searched, often without lows 689 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,039 and leaving no evidence of a struggle, and we. 690 00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:24,679 Speaker 1: Have to see it again. The fuel for this whole 691 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,639 mystery is twofold. It's Politi's methodology of only picking the 692 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:29,880 hardest cases. 693 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 2: And crucially, it's the lack of data transparency from institutions 694 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,920 like the National Park Service. That institutional resistance, he noted, 695 00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:41,239 is a genuine bureaucratic failure and it allows all this 696 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,360 ambiguity to just thrive. 697 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,159 Speaker 1: So if we accept the forensic model, if we say 698 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,000 the Bury connection is a statistically predictable high risk trigger, 699 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,360 then the need for policy changes becomes really clear. 700 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,159 Speaker 2: Absolutely. What are the concrete things we can do to 701 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,880 improve wilderness safety and reduce the number of failures in 702 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,199 these foraging environments. 703 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,159 Speaker 1: The sources outline three main retommendations. The first is targeted 704 00:35:06,159 --> 00:35:07,440 public education campaigns. 705 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, national parks should be issuing highly visible warnings about 706 00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:13,960 the specific dangers of these dense barry habitats. They should 707 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,440 explicitly talk about the risk of getting disoriented instantly because 708 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,719 of visibility failure and the fast onset of hypothermia in 709 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,519 those conditions. 710 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: And this also means encouraging people to wear high visibility 711 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,760 closing hunter orange vests things like that to counteract how 712 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,960 well the thickets hide. 713 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 2: You for sure. The second recommendation is to improve the 714 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,920 intelligence that search and rescue has to work with from the. 715 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: Start through mandatory foraging check in protocols. 716 00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 2: Exactly, SAR efforts are so handicapped when they don't have 717 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,280 accurate initial information where did you go in, what was 718 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,400 your route? When were you expecting to be back? 719 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,119 Speaker 1: A detailed mandatory check in for any off trail activity 720 00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:54,679 in these high risk zones, kind of like a mountaineering permit, 721 00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:58,079 would let them start a search way faster and with 722 00:35:58,199 --> 00:35:59,159 much better information. 723 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: And speed is the single biggest factor in a successful rescue. 724 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,079 Environmental friction maximizes delay, so anything to counteract that helps. 725 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: And third, address the core issue that PAUL is exploited 726 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,000 in the first. 727 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,199 Speaker 2: Place, improve data transparency. 728 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,519 Speaker 1: The MPs has to prioritize creating a centralized, accessible, searchable 729 00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:22,159 database of all missing persons cases, resolved and unresolved with 730 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:23,360 standardized reporting. 731 00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: If you remove the need for investigators to rely on 732 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,800 fragmented or cherry picked data by just providing a consolidated 733 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,280 objective record, you shift the focus. It moves away from 734 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:41,480 speculative conspiracies and towards practical ways to mitigate known wilderness hazards. 735 00:36:41,039 --> 00:36:43,199 Speaker 1: And it would allow real researchers to do that control 736 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,679 group analysis we talked about exactly, So at the end 737 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,599 of the day, this deep dive shows that while the 738 00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:51,880 story's polite's collects are undeniably tragic and really compelling, the 739 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,280 underlying mechanism isn't necessarily supernatural. 740 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,199 Speaker 2: It's the powerful lethal efficiency of nature itself, amplified by 741 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,960 predictable human panic. 742 00:37:01,159 --> 00:37:04,519 Speaker 1: We started with the idea of this specific, inexplicable link 743 00:37:04,559 --> 00:37:07,719 between berries and people just vanishing, and we end with 744 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,960 the knowledge that the commonalities polyides identified are real. They 745 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,000 are strong, but the scientific explanations for. 746 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,119 Speaker 2: Them environmental friction, panic, hypothermia. 747 00:37:16,199 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: Right. 748 00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 2: They are devastatingly efficient at mimicking abduction or supernatural forces. 749 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: They perfectly explain why search dogs fail and why bodies 750 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,400 are found miles away in these strange states. 751 00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:30,159 Speaker 2: The mystery persists because panic looks like impossible travel, hypothermia 752 00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:33,719 looks like a bizarre ritual, and bureaucracy looks like a coverup. 753 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: So here is the final provocative thought for you to 754 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,280 think about poly These correctly identified correlations that lead to 755 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,679 maximum search and rescue difficulty. The scientific model resolves these 756 00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:50,480 strange outcomes through environmental friction, lost person behavior, and physiological collapse. 757 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: So, considering the detailed forensic analysis we've explored, which explanation 758 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,039 do you find more difficult to accept and why? Is 759 00:37:58,039 --> 00:38:01,599 it the precise, evidence based scientific model or is it 760 00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:04,599 the possibility of an unknown, non conventional force that can 761 00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:07,119 instantly remove all trace of a human's presence. 762 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: Let us know what you think.