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<v Speaker 1>Hi, everybody, welcome back to the nonprofits.

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<v Speaker 2>So I didn't think human incubators were going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a thing, but it's twenty five and it's a new

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<v Speaker 2>fashion trend. So Tracy, let's talk about all the very

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<v Speaker 2>very bad things gotcha.

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<v Speaker 3>Something is rotten in the state of Georgia. This year,

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<v Speaker 3>a thirty year old woman by the name of Adriana

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<v Speaker 3>Smith met her end by brain death on February nineteen.

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<v Speaker 3>That said miss Smith was approximately two months pregnant at

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<v Speaker 3>the time of her demise, and Georgia doctors have informed

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<v Speaker 3>her mother that until Adriana's pregnancy has reached a term

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<v Speaker 3>length where delivery can be attempted, her family has no

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<v Speaker 3>say in what to do with her body. The body

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<v Speaker 3>will continue to be used as an incubator. Reminiscent of

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<v Speaker 3>a particular Hulu show, This nightmare is horrifying, to say

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<v Speaker 3>the least, and should give us all cause to panic,

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<v Speaker 3>as any government that can posthumously use your body as

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<v Speaker 3>an incubator for the unborn can also posthumously use your

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<v Speaker 3>body as a blood production device, or steal your organs

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<v Speaker 3>from your family after death, or any other number of

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<v Speaker 3>horrifying tableaus. The old adage I've heard about pregnant people

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<v Speaker 3>having less rights than a corpse seems to fall flat

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<v Speaker 3>when turns out they only have less rights than non

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<v Speaker 3>pregnant corpses.

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<v Speaker 1>So super fun.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, sorry, everybody, this is the reality we are now

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<v Speaker 4>living in. So to be clear, So, Adriana was three

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<v Speaker 4>years old and she was declared brain dead in February

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<v Speaker 4>of twenty twenty five. Despite she is leally dead, she

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<v Speaker 4>has been kept on life support due to Georgia's strict

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<v Speaker 4>abortion laws, which prohibit abortion after fetal cardiac activity is detected,

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<v Speaker 4>typically around six weeks into pregnancy.

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<v Speaker 1>I live in Florida.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the same law this situation reads. Is profound concerns.

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<v Speaker 2>Profound concerns about Balie Atonmy as Smith's family has been

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<v Speaker 2>denied the right to make decisions regarding her medical care,

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<v Speaker 2>highlighting the extent to which reproductive laws can override personal

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<v Speaker 2>and familiar agency even after death. So there's a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit more about this on an ap News article that

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<v Speaker 2>I put in in our links.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm deeply, deeply concerned.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you guys remember Terry Shaibo back

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<v Speaker 2>in the early two thousands, where she was a woman

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<v Speaker 2>that there was a big legal battle to keep her alive,

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<v Speaker 2>alive or not on life support, because it was two

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<v Speaker 2>separate families on different sides, and that was a big

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<v Speaker 2>discussion about you know, what what people intend and how

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<v Speaker 2>you know, even just you know, families arguing about this. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>let's include the state. Let's include the fact that you

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<v Speaker 2>got pregnant and like Audreyana did can and it's just

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<v Speaker 2>basically an incubator, which I find very disrespectful to her

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<v Speaker 2>especially this was not her intention as to just respect

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<v Speaker 2>her as like a human being, and also to like

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<v Speaker 2>the state has effectively told her family, you don't get

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<v Speaker 2>to decide what happens with your loved ones course and

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<v Speaker 2>what you want to do. We get to hold onto

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<v Speaker 2>it until it does the baby making thing. And by

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<v Speaker 2>the way, we're going to hand this child onto you

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<v Speaker 2>that you didn't really have a discussion on if you

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to raise it or not. We're going to make

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<v Speaker 2>that decision for you because I was going to have

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<v Speaker 2>to take care of that kid.

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<v Speaker 1>So Rob rob so who putting putting that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>point forward?

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<v Speaker 2>Who is financially responsible for this child? And when it's

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<v Speaker 2>brought the term under the state and forced life support,

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<v Speaker 2>like who's.

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<v Speaker 1>Going to pay for it?

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<v Speaker 5>Presumably the husband and the dad. As I I've been

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<v Speaker 5>thinking about this one because this is a curious situation

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<v Speaker 5>because she's already brain dead, which is a separate language

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<v Speaker 5>point that it might bring up another time where it's like,

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<v Speaker 5>why do we say brain dead because we define brain

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<v Speaker 5>dead to be actually dead and we're only using it

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<v Speaker 5>to still mean the body is still an incubator. But sure, fine, whatever,

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<v Speaker 5>semantics are very important.

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<v Speaker 1>I almost feel like.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh no, I hope you can convince me otherwise. Maybe.

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<v Speaker 5>I actually don't know if I find this as appalling

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<v Speaker 5>as I did a couple days ago, and I want

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<v Speaker 5>to explain why.

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<v Speaker 3>Go ahead, Rob, go ahead.

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<v Speaker 5>Most pro choice would be in mine as well, would

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<v Speaker 5>be the idea of she should have the right of

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<v Speaker 5>the say of her own body, especially in the case

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<v Speaker 5>of a parasite. But she's not using her own body anymore,

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<v Speaker 5>so it's not it's not a it's not a typical case,

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<v Speaker 5>so I can see why this has even come up

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<v Speaker 5>at all.

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<v Speaker 3>So I don't see it as yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm gonna The only quoble I'm going to point

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<v Speaker 2>out though, is that I and the article did not

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<v Speaker 2>mention what the intention was with the fetus if you

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<v Speaker 2>know she had ended her life and that she was

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<v Speaker 2>no longer able to participate in that decision process. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's one conversation that we could be having, and two

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<v Speaker 2>that the state is now removing the people that might

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<v Speaker 2>know her intentions involvement in making that decision.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh yeah, which is also super bad. And to actually

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<v Speaker 5>answer your question from earlier, who's going to pay for it?

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<v Speaker 5>There is, there is, there is a father. Presumably they're

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<v Speaker 5>going to pay for it. I was going to say,

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<v Speaker 5>this is the clearest position of pro birth ever, because

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<v Speaker 5>they're going to get that baby by any means necessary.

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<v Speaker 5>I just wanted to throw in the spanner of just like, ah,

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<v Speaker 5>most of my pro choice arguments are for the person

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<v Speaker 5>using their actual body, of which he's not using your

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<v Speaker 5>body anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>So like I'm going to do my job and give

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<v Speaker 2>quibbles and ask follow up questions.

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<v Speaker 1>My job. See, how do you feel about this? This

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<v Speaker 1>is so great? I love living and a patriarchy. It's

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<v Speaker 1>so great.

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<v Speaker 3>It's fantastic. So Rob, I don't see this as I

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<v Speaker 3>don't see this as a discussion where being pro life

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<v Speaker 3>or being pro choice or being pro birth, or being

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<v Speaker 3>pro whatever in that particular discussion, I don't find that

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<v Speaker 3>to be relevant, and I think you said something to

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<v Speaker 3>that effect. I don't find it to be relevant at all.

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<v Speaker 3>The as humanists, which I believe all in the panel

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<v Speaker 3>are one of the things that you that I've dealt

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<v Speaker 3>with in my journey along humanism is okay, Well, the

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<v Speaker 3>person who is dead is no longer using their body,

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<v Speaker 3>so why don't we eat it. Why don't we supply

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<v Speaker 3>it to people who would do terrible things to it

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<v Speaker 3>as a substitute for doing that to people who have

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<v Speaker 3>who are still in their body. The reason that we

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<v Speaker 3>allow you to have control to a certain extent and

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<v Speaker 3>to have your family have control over your body after

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<v Speaker 3>you die is because that is conducive to your mental

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<v Speaker 3>health while you are alive. To guarantee that. Now they've

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<v Speaker 3>removed her family from the decision making process, which is

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<v Speaker 3>already part of a problem, and we don't have access,

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<v Speaker 3>as you both have said, to her wishes at all.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is a complete disregard for one of the

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<v Speaker 3>core principles of the handling of bodies after death, that

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<v Speaker 3>you ultimately get to decide. I don't get to take

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<v Speaker 3>your organs, even though I need them after you die,

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<v Speaker 3>unless you consent to it beforehand. Same thing with this

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<v Speaker 3>child or this fetus we want to refer to it,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't really care U. Unless we have the express

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<v Speaker 3>permission of Adriana before her death, we don't get to

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<v Speaker 3>do this. This is this is organ donorship in the

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<v Speaker 3>extreme against against her will because we don't have access

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<v Speaker 3>to her will.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm really glad you specifically said organ donorship because as

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<v Speaker 5>we were bringing this up, I wonder it's like, what

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<v Speaker 5>if we have no idea what she is and I'll

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<v Speaker 5>bring this back around, what if she was an organ donor.

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<v Speaker 5>I could see a thing saying, well, she's just we're

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<v Speaker 5>just going to donate the entire body as the incubator.

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<v Speaker 5>And I completely agree. Yes, You're completely right in that

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<v Speaker 5>the thing that I am now convinced of is not

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<v Speaker 5>necessarily the thing that is actually happening, like the incubation ship.

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<v Speaker 5>It's the everyone around her has been pulled away from

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<v Speaker 5>their ability to participate within the death process. The state

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<v Speaker 5>is interfering.

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<v Speaker 4>That is.

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<v Speaker 5>That is the problem that I've now had because I

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<v Speaker 5>thought wondered, like, well, what if what if this was

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<v Speaker 5>happening to you in not a particularly religious sense, would

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<v Speaker 5>other people be upset? And then I thought extreme organ donor,

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<v Speaker 5>and like in that choice, I don't know if I

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<v Speaker 5>bring up.

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<v Speaker 2>A really you bring a really good point. Someone that

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<v Speaker 2>lost a very dear friend that they were totally brain dead,

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<v Speaker 2>that their mother had to make the terrible decision, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>heartbreaking decision to beat them off of life support because

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<v Speaker 2>she was a trained nurse and knew what the actually

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<v Speaker 2>what was actually going on, which we're talking about like

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<v Speaker 2>brain dead versus like death death. You know, I have

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<v Speaker 2>to imagine that what you what you brought up about,

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<v Speaker 2>like not being able to go through the process, you

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<v Speaker 2>are delaying it and and then you're adding the burden on.

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<v Speaker 1>Of a child.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're adding that to what is already a traumatic

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<v Speaker 2>experience where a young woman she's only thirty, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>is you know, not alive anymore. And the state has said,

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<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, by the way, uh, screw you on actually

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<v Speaker 2>mourning for your child and everything that's going on. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to keep her alive, you know, technically so she

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<v Speaker 2>can you know, birth, you know, incubate and birth this baby.

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<v Speaker 1>It's disgusting one.

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<v Speaker 2>And too that the lack of understanding of mental health

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<v Speaker 2>and trauma that happens to people if you're forced in

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<v Speaker 2>certain situations is not may not be conducive in the

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<v Speaker 2>long term to how this child is raised, and we

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<v Speaker 2>don't know the long term consequences of those things.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hopefully these.

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<v Speaker 2>People are kind people and won't raise their child, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and understand you know, the situation going forward, but we

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<v Speaker 2>don't know that, and there's a lot of unknowns here

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<v Speaker 2>and the fact that the state is saying like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>screw you, you don't get to make that decision anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>We're gonna make this, you know, use this woman's body

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<v Speaker 2>as an incubator, which she doesn't have the right right

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<v Speaker 2>or not to consent to you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, is she still a person? You know? You brought

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<v Speaker 1>up a good point. Is this personhood?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah? If this was an article that came about due

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<v Speaker 5>to the wishes of a family that's doing this to

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<v Speaker 5>their own to their own family, then I think it

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<v Speaker 5>would end up being extremely different. But Tracy has well

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<v Speaker 5>compelled me, and the problem is that it is the state,

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<v Speaker 5>because then that's why we do end up having questions like, well,

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<v Speaker 5>who's going to pay for it? Because if the family

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<v Speaker 5>had decided to do this, which they did not, then

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<v Speaker 5>like clearly that's being taken care of. But because the

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<v Speaker 5>state is getting involved, then people are being held hostage

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<v Speaker 5>into being forced into positions that may not even be

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<v Speaker 5>aware of or ready for right.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's that's the thing that you know, kind of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, is the sticking point with this particular case.

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<v Speaker 2>And like and Tracy, you brought up like, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>Adriana is a woman of color. Yes, if this was

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<v Speaker 2>being done let's just just say with like as you

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<v Speaker 2>point out, like by a wealthy white woman and the

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<v Speaker 2>exacciny was happening, would would we would there be more backlash,

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<v Speaker 2>would they be more reactionary stuff? Or is it this

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<v Speaker 2>whole idea that you know that still exists in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States unfortunately that you know, people of color are.

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<v Speaker 6>Lesson you know, So I don't know because I can't

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<v Speaker 6>look into alternate universes where this may have happened to

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<v Speaker 6>a wealthy white woman, and I don't know how wealthy

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<v Speaker 6>Adriana was.

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<v Speaker 3>But ultimately I think that this can all stem back

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<v Speaker 3>to a in a built in bias against both people

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<v Speaker 3>of color and women, and you know, due to intersectionality,

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<v Speaker 3>especially women of color, where people of color and women

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<v Speaker 3>often get sub subpar care, either because of flawed scientific

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<v Speaker 3>understanding of how bodies work that have been infiltrated by

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<v Speaker 3>racist ideologies, or just due to the infantilization of women

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<v Speaker 3>in these spaces where it is thought that they can't

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<v Speaker 3>make decisions for themselves. And I think that I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know who. I think it would be. Adriana's mother is

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<v Speaker 3>her next of kin, because that's who they interviewed in there.

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<v Speaker 3>It could it could pull from an infantilization of her

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<v Speaker 3>as well as Adriana.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't speak to.

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<v Speaker 3>Their rationale because there they aren't really giving one. They're

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<v Speaker 3>just saying, according to these laws, we must do this well.

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<v Speaker 2>Tracy, to be clear, we can make decisions for ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>because we have that hysteria wandering womb thing, So you

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<v Speaker 2>need somebody else to come in and tell us how

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<v Speaker 2>to make decisions. That's the rules, you know, Like that's

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<v Speaker 2>the attitude of this idea that well, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>assume what Audrianna wanted, even regardless regardless if she was

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<v Speaker 2>going to carry it, carried that baby to term. The

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<v Speaker 2>state doesn't get to make the decision, because the whole

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<v Speaker 2>idea of having mixed of chin is that you bestowed

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<v Speaker 2>those wishes onto your family, and then they are the

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<v Speaker 2>ones that can make knowing you the best what decisions

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<v Speaker 2>that you would make for your body if you were,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, standing outside yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, do this do that?

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<v Speaker 5>As Tracy was saying, I think it was somewhere. I

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<v Speaker 5>think I read this somewhere about this case. She went

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<v Speaker 5>to the hospital. She went to the doctor and said

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<v Speaker 5>that she had had pain, and then they I don't

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<v Speaker 5>know if the article meant to be as flippant about

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<v Speaker 5>it as it seems me, but she went in and

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<v Speaker 5>said I've had pain, and then they gave her some

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<v Speaker 5>pills and said go away. Probably not like that they

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<v Speaker 5>gave yeah, And then to.

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<v Speaker 4>Be fair, I've experienced that in the hospital, So the chronic.

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<v Speaker 1>Pain, I've experienced that.

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<v Speaker 2>So if she did experience that, not surprised, but also

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time not great.

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<v Speaker 3>It was only in the last few decades that women

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<v Speaker 3>that female phenotypically female persons were used in clinical trial

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<v Speaker 3>studies for medications. Prior to that, they were using primarily,

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<v Speaker 3>if not exclusively, phenotypically male individuals and then just extrapolating that, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>so women are like little men, so we can just

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<v Speaker 3>give them less. And then there's the built in stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it's not surprising to me this is happening

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<v Speaker 3>in the Land of Traders. But there's the built in

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<v Speaker 3>presupposition or pre preconceived notion that in a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>doctors' minds that black people are just sturdier than white

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<v Speaker 3>people are. And this hearkens back to a time when

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<v Speaker 3>they were used as farming equipment regularly. And so when

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<v Speaker 3>you have the intersectionality of thinking that a person of

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<v Speaker 3>a specific race is a stir you're than a person

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<v Speaker 3>of another race, as well as that you know, these

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<v Speaker 3>people are infantilized and don't need as much medication, it

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<v Speaker 3>can make.

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<v Speaker 1>A really tough cross section there.

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<v Speaker 2>For for we're considered to have a higher pain tolerance.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's pain subjective.

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<v Speaker 6>Subjective measure that measure it several times, and I don't

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<v Speaker 6>think they can.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's completely subjective.

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<v Speaker 2>So and and also too, like what kind of really

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<v Speaker 2>really bothers me about this is the fact that that

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<v Speaker 2>racial bias is built into it. This bias about woman

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<v Speaker 2>is built into it that we are not automis people.

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<v Speaker 1>We're basically incubators, uh and.

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<v Speaker 2>Root mares under the current perspective of the people that

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<v Speaker 2>are making these laws, you know, and I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>there's enough appreciation for why this matters. But we can

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<v Speaker 2>argue like what she wanted intend or not intended. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know this woman, I don't know her family. I

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<v Speaker 2>don' not her intentions. But the fact that the state

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<v Speaker 2>gets to come in and tell you what you can

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<v Speaker 2>and cannot do with your body, to the extreme that

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<v Speaker 2>your courts can be used. That's the most disgusting thing

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<v Speaker 2>about this, because not only they're finding guests, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>people you know that can have children, whether or not

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we get to make the decisions that even

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<v Speaker 2>after death, you don't get to make those choices.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to make them for you.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that you're one hundred percent right. I think

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<v Speaker 3>that both of you have hit on it, and we've

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<v Speaker 3>talked about it several times that the biggest issue here

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<v Speaker 3>is that we just don't have access to what Adriana

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<v Speaker 3>thinks and if she I rob the thing you brought

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<v Speaker 3>up about the organ donation, if she were registered as

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<v Speaker 3>an organ donor and clicked the box that said, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>all usable, then you know what, I would back the

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<v Speaker 3>hell off, only in the.

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<v Speaker 5>Case that the families were also down. That's that's I agree.

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<v Speaker 3>I disagree with on that point. It's not they don't

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<v Speaker 3>have a say in whether she can donate her organs.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, oh no, no, that's true, because then it would

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<v Speaker 5>just go to other people anyway. But that the reasonable.

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<v Speaker 5>It's harder in this particular case for that because then

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<v Speaker 5>who has ownership of the baby. They still have to

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<v Speaker 5>take ownership of the baby.

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<v Speaker 3>But as as you said, the paternal figure.

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<v Speaker 5>Right if they wanted it, I'm still saying that the

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<v Speaker 5>family should have a say in what is going on

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<v Speaker 5>to any extent because there's another person involved, presumably if

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<v Speaker 5>they're going to try to get a live birth. I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So you're saying, because they're going to be accepting

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<v Speaker 3>custody of the child they get.

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<v Speaker 1>To, which they are organ donating.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, okay, I see what you're saying. So there'd

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<v Speaker 3>be a lot of fuzziness to.

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<v Speaker 1>Navigate, right, But but it's all their choice.

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<v Speaker 5>If this exact thing happened with their intention, I'm in

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<v Speaker 5>But this also, as you said, because of just medical attention,

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<v Speaker 5>should never have happened in the first place. We should

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<v Speaker 5>never have even gotten to this position. It's unfortunate that

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<v Speaker 5>they were in this position that we could argue about

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<v Speaker 5>family or state, but it would have been really lovely

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<v Speaker 5>if we never even got here.

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<v Speaker 1>It would have been fantastic.

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<v Speaker 3>The state has no business in this affair.

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<v Speaker 2>So I just want to include a quote from the

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<v Speaker 2>Ratcle from Monica SYSM Monica Simpson, exec director of such

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<v Speaker 2>a song, the Lee Plantiff.

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<v Speaker 1>And the lawsuit challenging Georgia's abortion law. Like so many women,

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<v Speaker 1>Adriana spoke of herself.

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<v Speaker 2>She's for us what she felt in our body, and

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<v Speaker 2>as a healthcare provider, she knew how to navigate the

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<v Speaker 2>medical system. Simpson said, noting that by the time that

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<v Speaker 2>Smith was diagnosed, it was already too late. So the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that she was diagnosed was, you know, something that

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<v Speaker 2>was going to cause the situation to happen, and that

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<v Speaker 2>she was pregnant by the time everything came to fruition,

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<v Speaker 2>and the fact that rollbucks uh reprojector rights are rolling back,

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<v Speaker 2>and the fact that she's a woman of color, it

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<v Speaker 2>was too late.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of a bummer of story everybody. I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>but this is.

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<v Speaker 2>The reality of the world we're living in and if

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<v Speaker 2>you want to know more about what the government is

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<v Speaker 2>doing to re propractive with what rights in our current situation,

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<v Speaker 2>please