WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.839 And you can come and smash me. Calvinists making a 2 00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:07.919 big fuss. James White can't stop talking about me, and 3 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:11.480 I did. I posted my thirty minute roast. Forty minute roast, 4 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:15.439 so you can go watch the roast. Indiana, what's up, man? Come, 5 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:28.879 let's chat about our exchange. You got an a mute. 6 00:00:32.039 --> 00:00:32.240 Yo? 7 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:38.799 Hey are you there? Can you hear me? 8 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:41.240 Yeah? I can hear you. Yeah. 9 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:43.359 I mean I was perfectly cordial to you. When I 10 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.960 asked you if you wanted to debate. You said, I'm 11 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:49.039 not interested in representing a position in a debate for him, 12 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.039 but you're open to a conversation. And I asked you 13 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:54.159 a couple of times if you'd like to chat. So 14 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:57.119 where did I do anything like what you accuse me of. 15 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:00.640 No? 16 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:06.359 Yeah, I came on here to publicly apologize, humbly admitting 17 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:10.719 that I was wrong. I misrepresented our conversation. I deleted 18 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:13.359 the tweet, not as a I'm trying to hide what 19 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:14.000 I did. 20 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:15.159 But I did. 21 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:17.879 I misrepresented and I exaggerated our conversation. 22 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:18.879 Shouldn't have done. 23 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:21.719 That fair enough. I will take it down because you 24 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:22.640 were well. 25 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:23.599 I mean, you have to do that. 26 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:25.640 I mean, I mean I didn't come here to be 27 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:27.319 like to try to cover my ass or anything. But 28 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:30.920 I you know, there comes a point where you do 29 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.640 make a mistake online and you gotta come up and 30 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:36.560 you gotta admit that you that you overstepped your bounds. 31 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:43.920 I was a little agitated because and you know, secondarily, 32 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:47.200 you know, uh, I don't know. I get a lot 33 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:49.359 of d ms from people who I don't know if 34 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:50.920 they're affiliated with you at all, and I'm not going 35 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.799 to assume that they are, but a lot of just 36 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:56.280 horrible dms, and they're. 37 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:57.319 All telling me to debate you. 38 00:01:58.200 --> 00:01:58.560 Uh. 39 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:00.480 And that just the horrible thing as I hear it 40 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.879 come coming in my dms. So uh, And I apologize 41 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.360 for allowing that to bleed over into you know, me 42 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:11.800 talking about you on a public forum. 43 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:15.639 That's all good. It's forgiven and forgotten. You can if 44 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:17.919 you anytime you'd like to have a conversation about the 45 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.960 topics the issues. It's an open forum. It's there's an 46 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:25.800 open door there. I would also say that if you post, 47 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:28.879 you know, the Instagram stuff calling out Orthodoxy, you have 48 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:31.759 to expect pushback. I can't speak for all the people 49 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:34.719 that DM you or what the comments are My comment 50 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:37.439 on your post, you know, going after Relics was just 51 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:39.199 would you like to have a debate about this? And 52 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:42.159 that's just my default modus offerande for everybody. 53 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:48.960 Gotcha? Gotcha? No? Yeah, And I. 54 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:50.840 Respect that I don't know, I'm not super familiar with 55 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:55.120 a lot of your content. So again, another apology, you know, 56 00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:01.479 just like making a blatant, you know statement about you know, 57 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.000 questioning your Christianity because I really don't. I haven't taken 58 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:09.479 the time to go over everything that you post. So yeah, 59 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:11.639 I'll take some time to look over you know, your 60 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.360 position and more in depth. And yeah, i'd definitely be 61 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:15.360 down to have a conversation. 62 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.240 Yeah we can, we can. It can be friendly. We 63 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:20.120 don't have to be adversarial. It can be exchanged back 64 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:22.919 and forth. It's fine. We do that often. So it's 65 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:26.360 entirely up to the guest or the people that come on. 66 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:28.639 If they want to have a heated exchange, I'll do that. 67 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:30.960 If they just want to have a conversational exchange, we 68 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:31.759 can do that as well. 69 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:33.280 Absolutely. 70 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:36.199 Again, I know I already apologize, you already forget me, 71 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.520 but I just want to say so sorry, Like I 72 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:44.039 really like embarrassed because honest, and I'm not gonna lie. 73 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.800 Like when I was typing that, I actually was thinking. 74 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.639 I was like, I think I might be exaggerating a 75 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.960 little bit, and I still posted it anyway, So that should. 76 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:56.639 Just you know that I feel I definitely feel shame 77 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:56.919 in that. 78 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:02.719 So but yeah, all right, everybody, I'm not going to 79 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:03.520 take up much of this. 80 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:05.599 You know, space or anytime if you want me to 81 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:06.120 stay up here. 82 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:07.840 And you want to hear my opinion on whatever we're 83 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:09.680 going to talk about, but if not. 84 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:11.759 I'll just it's up to you. Like, so we can 85 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:14.759 talk about the principle behind relics, we can talk about 86 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.839 what your issues are with Orthodoxy, or we can say 87 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:18.720 for another time, it's balls in your court. 88 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:25.800 Well again, you know, I'm not super familiar with the 89 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.240 major distinctions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I mainly I don't 90 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:33.000 know if y'all people focus see what I post, I 91 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:36.160 mainly focus on Catholicism because that's where I'm what I'm 92 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:38.480 more familiar with. I have you know, half my family's 93 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.120 Catholic grew up in Louisiana. 94 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:43.160 You know, Catholicism is all over the place. 95 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:47.959 Orthodoxy, I've just it's like that's just within the past 96 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.360 year and a half, I've really even understood that there 97 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:57.000 was a distinction between the two. So and as far 98 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:00.439 as I'm concerned, is there a distinction between you know, 99 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.560 what Catholics believe about relics versus what Orthodox believe about relics. 100 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:09.360 You know, is there something different there? 101 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:11.800 Well, we would believe, I mean, there would be some 102 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:14.319 level of distinction between what we would say about relics 103 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:15.959 and what a Roman Catholic would say. We do not 104 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:22.600 disagree about the reverencing. Yeah, somebody was calling you. We 105 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:26.800 don't disagree about the reverencing of the relic, but we 106 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:29.759 do disagree about what's going on there and how that happens. 107 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:31.839 We believe in the doctrine of the energies, which is 108 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:36.160 that God's uncreated energies permeate his creation, and in particular 109 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:39.120 in a special way. The uncreated energies and power of 110 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:45.240 God are present in his physical spatial dimensions and locations 111 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.879 that are sanctified, so churches are still holy. In the 112 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:51.240 New Testament, Peter talks about the Holy Mountain where the 113 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.000 Lord was transfigured. That lets us know that places can 114 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:57.519 still be sanctified. There was the pool where people would 115 00:05:57.560 --> 00:05:59.600 go in in the Gospel John to be healed, where 116 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.720 an angel stir the waters. There can be you know, 117 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:06.519 holy pools even and in the Book of Actual, notice 118 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:11.720 that when Paul, they take clothes from Paul's body and 119 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.399 they heal people and it drives out demons. And this 120 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:18.639 is on the principle of Elijah's bones that resurrect the 121 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:22.480 person who falls into the tomb and the body touches 122 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:26.519 his relics and he's resurrected. So we believe that the 123 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:28.680 bodies of the saints are endued with the power of 124 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:32.480 God because we become little arcs of God, and they 125 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.920 do have that power. Roman Catholics do believe in these things, 126 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:38.519 but they believe in a created grace, which is very 127 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.399 different from uncreated grace in the Orthodox Church. But yeah, 128 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:44.519 we do believe that the relics have power to do 129 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:46.240 these things. 130 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:50.040 Interesting, no, yeah, and that's something that is undeniable. You know, 131 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:53.000 when you read the scriptures, reading acts, it's like, oh, 132 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.759 handkerchief is taken away to heal people. Where my concern 133 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:00.800 is is when you are presented with these you know, 134 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:07.800 vague stories. You know that there's not like a distinctive teaching. 135 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:11.720 You know, there isn't a formula that's presented to us 136 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:13.199 from apostolic. 137 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:16.920 Witness on uh the on the activity of the spirit 138 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:18.759 through physical objects. 139 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.759 We just hear that, you know, like for example, the 140 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:23.079 woman who who. 141 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:27.680 Just touched Jesus's uh clothes, right, Like, what would I like? 142 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:28.560 Is that like. 143 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.920 Is that something I would formulate doctrine off of? Or 144 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.879 is that like like was it because she actually. 145 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:40.040 Touched is well, it's a great example. That's actually a 146 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:41.920 great example because or was it faith? 147 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:42.519 You know? 148 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:45.399 So is it like like for example, when Jesus talks 149 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:48.120 to Nicodemus says, the activity of the spirit is like 150 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:48.560 the wind. 151 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.360 You know, it goes just like the wind. 152 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.199 You can't see it, but it you know, it's powerful 153 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.240 and you can effects in the same way. It's like, 154 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:04.000 how can we formulate like solid, concrete doctrine on these vague, 155 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:09.240 you know, spiritual experiences that we're seeing, you know, in 156 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.720 the first century church and acts. You know, the spirit 157 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:15.759 is extremely active. People are being filled with the spirit. 158 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.199 So I guess my concern is, like, are we making 159 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:20.720 like false correlations? 160 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:23.680 There was it the faith of the people bringing the. 161 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.160 Handkerchief that was where the power was or was it 162 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:28.759 the actual handkerchief because it was you know, touched by 163 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:30.920 Peter or Paul or whoever. 164 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.480 Yeah, let me address that. So it's not in our 165 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.200 view it wouldn't be an either or there's a relationship 166 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:40.600 of synergy that goes on there, because for example, in 167 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:42.480 the Gospels, you know, there's a place where it says 168 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.799 and he Christ could not work many miracles there because 169 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.399 of their lack of faith. It's not that Christ didn't 170 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.200 have the power. It's that God has determined and decided 171 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:55.799 to have a reciprocal relationship with human beings and creatures 172 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:58.080 such that he won't if they don't have faith. So 173 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.120 the power would not have gone out of him had 174 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:04.039 the woman not had faith. You're right about that. But 175 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:07.360 we can know some of the doctrines because if I 176 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.879 recall and I'm going for a memory, but I think 177 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.080 the word there is dunamis, which is the Greek word 178 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:15.639 that Paul uses when he talks about the energy and 179 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:20.120 power dunamis innergaia that's at work in him, and he 180 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.399 says it is the power of God at work in 181 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:25.759 him to do according to God's purpose. So what is 182 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:28.600 that power of God. I mean, is it an actual 183 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:33.000 essence of God? Is it the divine persons? Or is 184 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:35.960 it a divine energy. Well, thankfully we know because in 185 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:40.600 Corinthians Paul says in the in the chapter thirteen where 186 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.320 he's talking about the spiritual gifts, he says that the 187 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:47.120 twelve and thirteen he says that the spirit apportions the 188 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:51.120 gifts as he wills, according to his inner gaia. So 189 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:54.360 these are energetic gifts. So this is a New Testament 190 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.279 doctrine of the uncreated energies, and no church teaches us 191 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:00.679 except the Orthodox Church. There are no churches that teach 192 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.120 the uncredited energy doctrine. So Relics themselves points to this 193 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:08.960 principle of divine dunamus and inner gaia. And it's not 194 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.919 just scant examples we have. For example, in Hebrews thirteen, 195 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.080 Paul says that the New Testament Church has an altar 196 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.000 from which we eat, that those who serve in the 197 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:21.879 tabernacle have no right to eat from. So Paul calls 198 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.799 the New Testament alter a altar that we eat from. 199 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.240 And in the earliest records of the Christian Church, after 200 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:31.000 the Death of the Apostles, you can read something like 201 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:34.080 the Martyrdom of Polycarp where they are collecting his relics, 202 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:36.960 where they are reverencing the cross, even from that early 203 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:38.960 of the day. If you go to Rome, you can 204 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:42.159 go into the catacombs and you can see images of 205 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:47.240 Christian iconography. You can see altars underneath the city of 206 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.080 Rome in the catacombs. So the early Church had all 207 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.720 of these things on this sacramental principle, which is why, 208 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:56.480 for example, Jesus spits in the dirt and he makes 209 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:58.879 clay to heal a guy's eyes. I mean, Jesus could 210 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:02.320 have just thought and willed the guy's eyes to be healed, 211 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:05.240 but he chose to use stuff physical matter. That's what 212 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.720 Paul says. The cross is the instrument of our salvation. 213 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.799 That's why in the Orthodox Church we honor and revere 214 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:13.840 the cross. 215 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:15.399 All right. 216 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:19.840 Now, again, where my concern lies is how do you 217 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:26.120 set up an objective formula for use for putting this 218 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:31.960 into practice, like because like we've already established like there 219 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:39.559 isn't necessarily an exact consistency with you know, divine objects, 220 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:42.720 right like Jesus heals without dirt, Jesus heels with dirt. 221 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:48.039 Jesus heals the nobleman's son without even being there, but 222 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:51.559 then he could physically to Lazars. So there's you know, 223 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:56.320 there's obviously not a lot of consistency there. But I 224 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.279 would argue that this is like Jesus using content text 225 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:04.600 or like there's context is key in these in these scenarios, 226 00:12:04.759 --> 00:12:09.039 and it's not so much the actual physical objects. 227 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:13.279 It's you knows words. 228 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.399 Well, let's let's think about in John three, right, Jesus 229 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.919 says that the bronze serpent was put up on a 230 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:23.480 pole in the Book of Numbers to heal the Israelites 231 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.200 when they were being bitten by the snakes, and he 232 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:29.360 likens the cross to that very thing. So there's a 233 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:34.679 continuity here of objects having the ability to be endued 234 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:39.559 with sacramental grace, energetic, dunamous power. And that's not a 235 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:42.320 principle that goes away in the New Testament. And I've 236 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:46.120 already listed several examples, but there's many more. There's oil 237 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.600 is used in the New Testament, bread and wine are 238 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:51.120 used in the New Testament. These are physical means of 239 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:56.080 grace that are premised on the incarnation itself. Jesus took 240 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:59.720 on a human body, which is the image of God 241 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.159 and in a in a created sense, so God doesn't 242 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:06.919 have a problem with created things, but Protestants tend to. 243 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.360 Hey, can I add real quick this was brought up. 244 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.279 I thought that russelled me the point I never thought 245 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:20.639 about this that if you notice Christ's miracles in the 246 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.200 order of time, they become more and more incarnational. 247 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:29.399 That it starts like just you know. 248 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:35.000 Uh, proclaiming that you know, you're you're, you are healed, 249 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.679 and then it each miracle that happens gets more and 250 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:40.639 more incarnational. 251 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:42.000 It's the touching, it's. 252 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:46.320 Going, it's putting the there's a chronological order of thens, 253 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:49.600 spitting into the mud and putting into the deaf man's ear, 254 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:53.360 which itself is a pedagogical lesson. So he's taking people, 255 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:59.480 you know, from the power of God's commands to then 256 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:04.879 teach that it's by touching and becoming one physically with 257 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.200 my body that actually heals. 258 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.559 And of course it's a both. 259 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:18.039 And it's not simply your faith that saves you, for example, 260 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:26.360 or vice versa, simply the power of Christ that saves you. It's, 261 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:30.559 for example, in the confession, if you don't have faith 262 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:35.600 and you're receiving the divine energy of Christ forgiveness. He's 263 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.399 not going to force it on you that your lack 264 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:42.799 of faith can prevent you from receiving the healing graces 265 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:45.759 of Christ. So I would say it's a both, and 266 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.159 it's not simply well, the person just had faith or 267 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:55.919 Christ just said something. It's incarnational, it's tangible, it's sacramental, 268 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.279 and it requires one's faith to receive that. 269 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:01.840 M hm. 270 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:13.639 Another brief point while you're thinking, is that you mentioned, 271 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.360 you know, the guidance the Holy Spirit kind of leading 272 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.799 us and letting us know the parameters of where this 273 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:23.000 is and is inappropriate. You know, Jesus says that he 274 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:25.320 promised the Holy Spirit to the church, right, So he 275 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.960 says that in John when he sends the Spirit and 276 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.039 acts to a Pentecost, there's the assumption, I believe that 277 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:34.240 the Spirit really will lead and guide the church into 278 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:36.759 all truth. I will not leave you as orphans, I 279 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:38.519 will not forsake you. I will be with you until 280 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.440 the end of the age. That promise didn't go away. 281 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:46.000 Right with the first and second century Church fathers like Clement, 282 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:51.919 polycarp Ignacious, et cetera. They express the same faith as 283 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.519 what was handed down from those apostles, and in those 284 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:01.559 writings we already see the acceptance of and the veneration 285 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:03.840 of the bodies of holy men. 286 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:06.320 Wait, waitch writings, what are you talking about? 287 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:10.039 Martyred him a polycarp Okay? 288 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:16.919 And then also did you mention is martyred? 289 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.399 So these are people that were taught by John the apostle, 290 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:27.279 for example polycarp. 291 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:34.120 Ei. 292 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.759 There anything else you want to discuss, I'm thinking, Okay, 293 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.480 that's fine. I mean, there's a mean here's another classic. 294 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:44.840 If you look at Joshua seven in the Masoretic Text, 295 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:51.000 it points out that when Joshua in verse six, it says, 296 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.519 Joshua tore his clothes and he fell to the earth 297 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:57.039 on his fake face before the ark of the Lord 298 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.799 until evening he and all the elders of Israel, and 299 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:03.440 they put dust on their heads. And most Protestants who 300 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:08.240 are sort of iconoclastic would have tremendous problem with Orthodox 301 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:12.079 you know, prostrating before the cross or bowing and venerating 302 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:14.400 icons and this kind of stuff. And yet it's a 303 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:18.200 very principle from the Old Testament itself, as Joshua prostrates 304 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:18.759 before the arc. 305 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:24.039 Well, so, so, yeah, I've heard that argument plenty of times, 306 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.440 and the context of that is not. 307 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.839 Venerating the arc, it is it is he's lamenting. 308 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.160 Well, then why is he falling down towards the arc? 309 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:35.680 Because the arc was. 310 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.359 The where the presence of God was made manifest. 311 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:44.039 But isn't in the physical objects with images on it? 312 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:46.279 Exactly? And who? And who? 313 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:48.680 So they were bowing down to images and. 314 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.079 In the New Covenant. What is the image of the 315 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:51.680 living God. 316 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.400 It's the person of the logos. 317 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:55.880 Jesus, Jesus Christ. 318 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:59.759 And so would you vow before his physical body? 319 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.559 I would? I would bow before Jesus in the. 320 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.680 Flesh, yes, okay, which you. 321 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:07.279 Know, got a picture of him. 322 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.640 Well, wait a minute, is his body created. 323 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.160 His Yes, his body was formed in the wound marries wound. 324 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:16.640 So you're bowing before a created thing. 325 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.400 So okay, So are we saying that Jesus is a 326 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:22.640 created being? 327 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.799 The body of created is absolutely okay? Well yeah, so 328 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:29.480 I'm bowing before Jesus. 329 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.480 So okay, wait, are we separating Jesus flesh from his deities? 330 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:35.640 That we're doing is not at all. In fact, if 331 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.680 you read the Council of Ephesus, this is the very 332 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.359 argument that Cyril uses against Nestorius to prove the deity 333 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.079 of Christ and the real presence in the Eucharist, that 334 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.279 there's only one divine subject, because he says in the 335 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.400 in the Canons of Ephesus, you, if Jesus was a 336 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.880 mere man, you would be eating the flesh of a 337 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.599 mere man, and that would be cannibalism. But he argues 338 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.759 that you're eating the flesh of the god man and 339 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:02.839 that that's what deifies you. So it's the Protestants that 340 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:04.640 would reject Ephicus on this point. 341 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:10.359 Yeah, yeah, No, I do reject real physical presence. I 342 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:14.599 do believe in real presence. The spirit is real, and 343 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.720 that's a that's a whole other topic in and of itself, 344 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.839 but which I don't know if you guys. 345 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.599 Did Jesus deify the human body that he took. 346 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:28.279 On, Yeah, his resurrection body was his glorified. 347 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:34.200 Body, right, So so God can make matter dea form 348 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:34.920 and transfigured. 349 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.440 Yeah, I mean at the transfiguration he was appearing in 350 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:46.599 his glorified state, you know, after the resurrection, he was 351 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:47.960 in his resurrected So. 352 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:50.680 He only does that too Jesus's actual body, or does 353 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:51.759 he do it to our bodies too? 354 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:54.480 Yeah? 355 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.599 I believe our resurrection body is going to be you know, 356 00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:59.039 renewed in. 357 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:01.799 A you know, something that is distinct from what it 358 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:02.160 is now. 359 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:06.039 Absolutely, So when John six talks about you must eat 360 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.559 my flesh and drink my blood to have life in you, 361 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:12.039 is that not talking about the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist. 362 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:17.039 So I believe John six does not point us to 363 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:18.200 the Lord's table. 364 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:19.119 It points us. 365 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:23.359 To the cross, and the Lord's table subsequently points us 366 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:27.599 to the cross. So I'm actually I just finished a script. 367 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:31.279 I'm gonna post a video soon. A lot of people 368 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:33.519 have been like in my DMS. I don't know if 369 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.880 y'all know the YouTuber. His name's how to Be Christian. 370 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:38.240 He posted a video. 371 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:40.400 Like a long time ago, and I. 372 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:44.880 Made the mistake of arrogantly, you know, you know, saying like, oh, 373 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:49.440 I'm gonna make this reply whatever whatever. And you know, 374 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.400 he quote tweeted me for months and months and months, 375 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:57.200 and me being a procrastinator and you know whatever, Long 376 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.400 story short, I put it off. But I finally finished 377 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:01.839 the script. I'm gonna make a video on this. So 378 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:06.160 I've been studying through John. And if you take the 379 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.960 Gospel of John and you read it as from the 380 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:13.920 perspective of John. Jesus preaches the gospel with a specific formula. Right, 381 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.319 John six is not this separate chapter that's unrelated to 382 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.119 John two or John three, or John four or five. 383 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.799 You know, Jesus is very consistent in his in his preaching. 384 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:28.480 What does any of that have to do with the 385 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:29.759 presence in the Eucharist. 386 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.559 It has to except we're talking about John six, are we. 387 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:38.279 Well you're talking about the logical sequence of the Gospel 388 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.839 of John in this formula, But what does that have 389 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:42.680 to do with the real presence in chapter six? 390 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.039 So well, you're saying that John six is like proof. 391 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.559 That I'm saying is one example, because when he talks 392 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:50.960 about it, it offends a lot of people who walk away, 393 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.079 and he says, is this a hard teaching? Now, if 394 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:57.279 he's just teaching a spiritual presence that's identical to the 395 00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:59.599 Old Testament conception of the sacrament, so there would be 396 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.799 nothing offensive or weird about that. Why didn't he stop 397 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:03.680 them from walking away? 398 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:04.880 Okay? 399 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:11.200 So, so never in scripture do we see people understanding 400 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:13.759 correctly and then walking away from Jesus. 401 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.039