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Speaker 1: And you can come and smash me. Calvinists making a

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big fuss. James White can't stop talking about me, and

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I did. I posted my thirty minute roast. Forty minute roast,

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so you can go watch the roast. Indiana, what's up, man? Come,

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let's chat about our exchange. You got an a mute.

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Speaker 2: Yo?

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Speaker 1: Hey are you there? Can you hear me?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I can hear you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I was perfectly cordial to you. When I

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asked you if you wanted to debate. You said, I'm

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not interested in representing a position in a debate for him,

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but you're open to a conversation. And I asked you

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a couple of times if you'd like to chat. So

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where did I do anything like what you accuse me of.

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I came on here to publicly apologize, humbly admitting

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that I was wrong. I misrepresented our conversation. I deleted

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the tweet, not as a I'm trying to hide what

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I did.

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Speaker 2: But I did.

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Speaker 3: I misrepresented and I exaggerated our conversation.

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Speaker 2: Shouldn't have done.

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Speaker 1: That fair enough. I will take it down because you

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were well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you have to do that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I mean I didn't come here to be

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like to try to cover my ass or anything. But

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I you know, there comes a point where you do

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make a mistake online and you gotta come up and

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you gotta admit that you that you overstepped your bounds.

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I was a little agitated because and you know, secondarily,

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you know, uh, I don't know. I get a lot

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of d ms from people who I don't know if

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they're affiliated with you at all, and I'm not going

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to assume that they are, but a lot of just

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horrible dms, and they're.

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Speaker 2: All telling me to debate you.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And that just the horrible thing as I hear it

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come coming in my dms. So uh, And I apologize

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for allowing that to bleed over into you know, me

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talking about you on a public forum.

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Speaker 1: That's all good. It's forgiven and forgotten. You can if

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you anytime you'd like to have a conversation about the

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topics the issues. It's an open forum. It's there's an

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open door there. I would also say that if you post,

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you know, the Instagram stuff calling out Orthodoxy, you have

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to expect pushback. I can't speak for all the people

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that DM you or what the comments are My comment

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on your post, you know, going after Relics was just

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would you like to have a debate about this? And

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that's just my default modus offerande for everybody.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha? Gotcha? No? Yeah, And I.

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Speaker 3: Respect that I don't know, I'm not super familiar with

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a lot of your content. So again, another apology, you know,

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just like making a blatant, you know statement about you know,

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questioning your Christianity because I really don't. I haven't taken

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the time to go over everything that you post. So yeah,

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I'll take some time to look over you know, your

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position and more in depth. And yeah, i'd definitely be

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down to have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah we can, we can. It can be friendly. We

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don't have to be adversarial. It can be exchanged back

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and forth. It's fine. We do that often. So it's

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entirely up to the guest or the people that come on.

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If they want to have a heated exchange, I'll do that.

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If they just want to have a conversational exchange, we

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can do that as well.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Again, I know I already apologize, you already forget me,

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but I just want to say so sorry, Like I

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really like embarrassed because honest, and I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 2: Like when I was typing that, I actually was thinking.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I think I might be exaggerating a

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little bit, and I still posted it anyway, So that should.

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Speaker 2: Just you know that I feel I definitely feel shame

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in that.

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Speaker 3: So but yeah, all right, everybody, I'm not going to

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take up much of this.

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Speaker 2: You know, space or anytime if you want me to

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stay up here.

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Speaker 3: And you want to hear my opinion on whatever we're

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going to talk about, but if not.

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Speaker 1: I'll just it's up to you. Like, so we can

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talk about the principle behind relics, we can talk about

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what your issues are with Orthodoxy, or we can say

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for another time, it's balls in your court.

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Speaker 3: Well again, you know, I'm not super familiar with the

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major distinctions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I mainly I don't

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know if y'all people focus see what I post, I

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mainly focus on Catholicism because that's where I'm what I'm

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more familiar with. I have you know, half my family's

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Catholic grew up in Louisiana.

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Speaker 2: You know, Catholicism is all over the place.

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Speaker 3: Orthodoxy, I've just it's like that's just within the past

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year and a half, I've really even understood that there

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was a distinction between the two. So and as far

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as I'm concerned, is there a distinction between you know,

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what Catholics believe about relics versus what Orthodox believe about relics.

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Speaker 2: You know, is there something different there?

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Speaker 1: Well, we would believe, I mean, there would be some

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level of distinction between what we would say about relics

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and what a Roman Catholic would say. We do not

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disagree about the reverencing. Yeah, somebody was calling you. We

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don't disagree about the reverencing of the relic, but we

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do disagree about what's going on there and how that happens.

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We believe in the doctrine of the energies, which is

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that God's uncreated energies permeate his creation, and in particular

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in a special way. The uncreated energies and power of

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God are present in his physical spatial dimensions and locations

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that are sanctified, so churches are still holy. In the

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New Testament, Peter talks about the Holy Mountain where the

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Lord was transfigured. That lets us know that places can

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still be sanctified. There was the pool where people would

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go in in the Gospel John to be healed, where

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an angel stir the waters. There can be you know,

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holy pools even and in the Book of Actual, notice

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that when Paul, they take clothes from Paul's body and

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they heal people and it drives out demons. And this

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is on the principle of Elijah's bones that resurrect the

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person who falls into the tomb and the body touches

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his relics and he's resurrected. So we believe that the

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bodies of the saints are endued with the power of

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God because we become little arcs of God, and they

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do have that power. Roman Catholics do believe in these things,

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but they believe in a created grace, which is very

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different from uncreated grace in the Orthodox Church. But yeah,

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we do believe that the relics have power to do

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these things.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, no, yeah, and that's something that is undeniable. You know,

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when you read the scriptures, reading acts, it's like, oh,

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handkerchief is taken away to heal people. Where my concern

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is is when you are presented with these you know,

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vague stories. You know that there's not like a distinctive teaching.

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You know, there isn't a formula that's presented to us

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from apostolic.

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Speaker 2: Witness on uh the on the activity of the spirit

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through physical objects.

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Speaker 3: We just hear that, you know, like for example, the

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woman who who.

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Speaker 2: Just touched Jesus's uh clothes, right, Like, what would I like?

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Is that like.

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Speaker 3: Is that something I would formulate doctrine off of? Or

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is that like like was it because she actually.

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Speaker 1: Touched is well, it's a great example. That's actually a

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great example because or was it faith?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: So is it like like for example, when Jesus talks

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to Nicodemus says, the activity of the spirit is like

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the wind.

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Speaker 2: You know, it goes just like the wind.

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Speaker 3: You can't see it, but it you know, it's powerful

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and you can effects in the same way. It's like,

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how can we formulate like solid, concrete doctrine on these vague,

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you know, spiritual experiences that we're seeing, you know, in

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the first century church and acts. You know, the spirit

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is extremely active. People are being filled with the spirit.

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So I guess my concern is, like, are we making

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like false correlations?

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Speaker 2: There was it the faith of the people bringing the.

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Speaker 3: Handkerchief that was where the power was or was it

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the actual handkerchief because it was you know, touched by

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Peter or Paul or whoever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me address that. So it's not in our

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view it wouldn't be an either or there's a relationship

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of synergy that goes on there, because for example, in

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the Gospels, you know, there's a place where it says

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and he Christ could not work many miracles there because

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of their lack of faith. It's not that Christ didn't

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have the power. It's that God has determined and decided

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to have a reciprocal relationship with human beings and creatures

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such that he won't if they don't have faith. So

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the power would not have gone out of him had

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the woman not had faith. You're right about that. But

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we can know some of the doctrines because if I

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recall and I'm going for a memory, but I think

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the word there is dunamis, which is the Greek word

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that Paul uses when he talks about the energy and

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power dunamis innergaia that's at work in him, and he

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says it is the power of God at work in

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him to do according to God's purpose. So what is

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that power of God. I mean, is it an actual

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essence of God? Is it the divine persons? Or is

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it a divine energy. Well, thankfully we know because in

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Corinthians Paul says in the in the chapter thirteen where

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he's talking about the spiritual gifts, he says that the

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twelve and thirteen he says that the spirit apportions the

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gifts as he wills, according to his inner gaia. So

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these are energetic gifts. So this is a New Testament

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doctrine of the uncreated energies, and no church teaches us

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except the Orthodox Church. There are no churches that teach

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the uncredited energy doctrine. So Relics themselves points to this

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principle of divine dunamus and inner gaia. And it's not

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just scant examples we have. For example, in Hebrews thirteen,

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Paul says that the New Testament Church has an altar

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from which we eat, that those who serve in the

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tabernacle have no right to eat from. So Paul calls

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the New Testament alter a altar that we eat from.

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And in the earliest records of the Christian Church, after

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the Death of the Apostles, you can read something like

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the Martyrdom of Polycarp where they are collecting his relics,

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where they are reverencing the cross, even from that early

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of the day. If you go to Rome, you can

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go into the catacombs and you can see images of

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Christian iconography. You can see altars underneath the city of

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Rome in the catacombs. So the early Church had all

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of these things on this sacramental principle, which is why,

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for example, Jesus spits in the dirt and he makes

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clay to heal a guy's eyes. I mean, Jesus could

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have just thought and willed the guy's eyes to be healed,

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but he chose to use stuff physical matter. That's what

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Paul says. The cross is the instrument of our salvation.

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That's why in the Orthodox Church we honor and revere

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the cross.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 3: Now, again, where my concern lies is how do you

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set up an objective formula for use for putting this

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into practice, like because like we've already established like there

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isn't necessarily an exact consistency with you know, divine objects,

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right like Jesus heals without dirt, Jesus heels with dirt.

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Jesus heals the nobleman's son without even being there, but

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then he could physically to Lazars. So there's you know,

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there's obviously not a lot of consistency there. But I

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would argue that this is like Jesus using content text

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or like there's context is key in these in these scenarios,

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and it's not so much the actual physical objects.

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Speaker 2: It's you knows words.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's let's think about in John three, right, Jesus

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says that the bronze serpent was put up on a

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pole in the Book of Numbers to heal the Israelites

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when they were being bitten by the snakes, and he

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likens the cross to that very thing. So there's a

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continuity here of objects having the ability to be endued

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with sacramental grace, energetic, dunamous power. And that's not a

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principle that goes away in the New Testament. And I've

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already listed several examples, but there's many more. There's oil

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is used in the New Testament, bread and wine are

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used in the New Testament. These are physical means of

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grace that are premised on the incarnation itself. Jesus took

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on a human body, which is the image of God

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and in a in a created sense, so God doesn't

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have a problem with created things, but Protestants tend to.

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Speaker 2: Hey, can I add real quick this was brought up.

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Speaker 5: I thought that russelled me the point I never thought

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about this that if you notice Christ's miracles in the

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order of time, they become more and more incarnational.

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Speaker 2: That it starts like just you know.

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Speaker 5: Uh, proclaiming that you know, you're you're, you are healed,

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and then it each miracle that happens gets more and

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more incarnational.

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Speaker 2: It's the touching, it's.

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Speaker 5: Going, it's putting the there's a chronological order of thens,

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spitting into the mud and putting into the deaf man's ear,

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which itself is a pedagogical lesson. So he's taking people,

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you know, from the power of God's commands to then

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teach that it's by touching and becoming one physically with

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my body that actually heals.

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Speaker 2: And of course it's a both.

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Speaker 5: And it's not simply your faith that saves you, for example,

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or vice versa, simply the power of Christ that saves you. It's,

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for example, in the confession, if you don't have faith

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and you're receiving the divine energy of Christ forgiveness. He's

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not going to force it on you that your lack

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of faith can prevent you from receiving the healing graces

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of Christ. So I would say it's a both, and

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it's not simply well, the person just had faith or

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Christ just said something. It's incarnational, it's tangible, it's sacramental,

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and it requires one's faith to receive that.

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Speaker 2: M hm.

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Speaker 1: Another brief point while you're thinking, is that you mentioned,

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you know, the guidance the Holy Spirit kind of leading

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us and letting us know the parameters of where this

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is and is inappropriate. You know, Jesus says that he

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promised the Holy Spirit to the church, right, So he

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says that in John when he sends the Spirit and

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acts to a Pentecost, there's the assumption, I believe that

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the Spirit really will lead and guide the church into

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all truth. I will not leave you as orphans, I

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will not forsake you. I will be with you until

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the end of the age. That promise didn't go away.

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Right with the first and second century Church fathers like Clement,

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polycarp Ignacious, et cetera. They express the same faith as

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what was handed down from those apostles, and in those

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writings we already see the acceptance of and the veneration

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of the bodies of holy men.

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Speaker 2: Wait, waitch writings, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: Martyred him a polycarp Okay?

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Speaker 2: And then also did you mention is martyred?

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Speaker 1: So these are people that were taught by John the apostle,

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for example polycarp.

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Speaker 2: Ei.

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Speaker 1: There anything else you want to discuss, I'm thinking, Okay,

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that's fine. I mean, there's a mean here's another classic.

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If you look at Joshua seven in the Masoretic Text,

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it points out that when Joshua in verse six, it says,

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Joshua tore his clothes and he fell to the earth

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on his fake face before the ark of the Lord

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until evening he and all the elders of Israel, and

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they put dust on their heads. And most Protestants who

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are sort of iconoclastic would have tremendous problem with Orthodox

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you know, prostrating before the cross or bowing and venerating

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icons and this kind of stuff. And yet it's a

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very principle from the Old Testament itself, as Joshua prostrates

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before the arc.

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Speaker 3: Well, so, so, yeah, I've heard that argument plenty of times,

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and the context of that is not.

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Speaker 2: Venerating the arc, it is it is he's lamenting.

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Speaker 1: Well, then why is he falling down towards the arc?

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Speaker 2: Because the arc was.

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Speaker 3: The where the presence of God was made manifest.

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Speaker 1: But isn't in the physical objects with images on it?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? And who? And who?

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Speaker 1: So they were bowing down to images and.

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Speaker 2: In the New Covenant. What is the image of the

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living God.

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Speaker 1: It's the person of the logos.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: And so would you vow before his physical body?

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Speaker 2: I would? I would bow before Jesus in the.

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Speaker 1: Flesh, yes, okay, which you.

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Speaker 2: Know, got a picture of him.

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Speaker 1: Well, wait a minute, is his body created.

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Speaker 3: His Yes, his body was formed in the wound marries wound.

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Speaker 1: So you're bowing before a created thing.

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Speaker 3: So okay, So are we saying that Jesus is a

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created being?

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Speaker 2: The body of created is absolutely okay? Well yeah, so

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I'm bowing before Jesus.

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Speaker 3: So okay, wait, are we separating Jesus flesh from his deities?

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Speaker 1: That we're doing is not at all. In fact, if

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you read the Council of Ephesus, this is the very

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argument that Cyril uses against Nestorius to prove the deity

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of Christ and the real presence in the Eucharist, that

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there's only one divine subject, because he says in the

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in the Canons of Ephesus, you, if Jesus was a

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mere man, you would be eating the flesh of a

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mere man, and that would be cannibalism. But he argues

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that you're eating the flesh of the god man and

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that that's what deifies you. So it's the Protestants that

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would reject Ephicus on this point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, No, I do reject real physical presence. I

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do believe in real presence. The spirit is real, and

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that's a that's a whole other topic in and of itself,

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but which I don't know if you guys.

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Speaker 1: Did Jesus deify the human body that he took.

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Speaker 3: On, Yeah, his resurrection body was his glorified.

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Speaker 1: Body, right, So so God can make matter dea form

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and transfigured.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean at the transfiguration he was appearing in

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his glorified state, you know, after the resurrection, he was

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in his resurrected So.

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Speaker 1: He only does that too Jesus's actual body, or does

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he do it to our bodies too?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I believe our resurrection body is going to be you know,

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renewed in.

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Speaker 2: A you know, something that is distinct from what it

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is now.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So when John six talks about you must eat

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my flesh and drink my blood to have life in you,

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is that not talking about the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist.

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Speaker 3: So I believe John six does not point us to

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the Lord's table.

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Speaker 2: It points us.

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Speaker 3: To the cross, and the Lord's table subsequently points us

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to the cross. So I'm actually I just finished a script.

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I'm gonna post a video soon. A lot of people

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have been like in my DMS. I don't know if

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y'all know the YouTuber. His name's how to Be Christian.

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He posted a video.

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Speaker 2: Like a long time ago, and I.

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Speaker 3: Made the mistake of arrogantly, you know, you know, saying like, oh,

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I'm gonna make this reply whatever whatever. And you know,

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he quote tweeted me for months and months and months,

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and me being a procrastinator and you know whatever, Long

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story short, I put it off. But I finally finished

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the script. I'm gonna make a video on this. So

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I've been studying through John. And if you take the

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Gospel of John and you read it as from the

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perspective of John. Jesus preaches the gospel with a specific formula. Right,

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John six is not this separate chapter that's unrelated to

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John two or John three, or John four or five.

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You know, Jesus is very consistent in his in his preaching.

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Speaker 1: What does any of that have to do with the

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presence in the Eucharist.

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Speaker 3: It has to except we're talking about John six, are we.

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Speaker 1: Well you're talking about the logical sequence of the Gospel

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of John in this formula, But what does that have

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to do with the real presence in chapter six?

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Speaker 2: So well, you're saying that John six is like proof.

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Speaker 1: That I'm saying is one example, because when he talks

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about it, it offends a lot of people who walk away,

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and he says, is this a hard teaching? Now, if

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he's just teaching a spiritual presence that's identical to the

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Old Testament conception of the sacrament, so there would be

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nothing offensive or weird about that. Why didn't he stop

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them from walking away?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 3: So, so never in scripture do we see people understanding

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correctly and then walking away from Jesus.

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Speaker 1: It's always, but it wouldn't be a hard teaching is

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what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. They they did not understand the spiritual truth.

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Speaker 1: But he says, this is a hard teaching. If it's

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a it's the if it's the Old Testament understanding of

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the sacramental presence, which is largely symbolic in John heart,

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it's not a hard saying.

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Speaker 3: In John six, what was the first statement that made

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them quote.

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Speaker 1: Grumble, I don't have it pulled up?

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Speaker 2: What when he told them this offers his flesh?

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Speaker 3: No, when he said that he came down from heaven,

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that was the first thing that made them grumble.

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Speaker 2: Quote.

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Speaker 3: So when he's saying this is a hard saying, they

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were confused about the entire him coming down from heaven.

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Speaker 2: How are you the bread? How are we going to

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eat your flesh? Like?

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Speaker 3: None of this makes sense because they were thinking, and

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let's look at the words of Augustine, for example, they

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were thinking carnally.

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Speaker 1: Augustine taught the real presence. When he talks about carnally,

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let me think I've read thousands of pages of Augustine,

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so let me explain what he's talking about. He's saying

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that by eating carnally, it's not that there's no physical eating.

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They thought they were going to get a free meal.

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John six. The grumblers are thinking, you've been feeding people

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with bread and with loaves and fish. Where's our free meal,

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Jesus saying, I'm not talking about a free meal of

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loaves and fishes. I'm talking about eating the true bread

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that comes down from Heaven. Guess what. That's the passover

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the Pasca. And if you look at Hebrews thirteen, the

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passives that I mentioned earlier, when Paul we believe Paul

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wrote this. When Paul talks about the animals that are

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sacrificed by Israel at the tabernac on the temple, he

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says that those animals do not have the grace to

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profit those that eat of it. But we have an

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altar that we eat from, and our high priest offering

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is what does sanctify us? And verse twelve says that

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it is his blood that you're partaking of. So Paul

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calls it an altar with a sacrifice, and it's the

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blood of the high priest contrasted to the symbolic sacrifices

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of the animals. And you're telling me that, no, Jesus

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is just teaching the symbolic view of the Old Testament,

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which is a contradiction from what Paul's saying in Hebrews thirteen.

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Speaker 3: No, I believe in a real body and real blood,

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that really blood, really died on a real cross at

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a real point in time.

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Speaker 1: What is Paul talking about what happened on the cross?

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Or is he talking about the altar that we.

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Speaker 3: Eat from When he's talking about the blood of Christ,

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He's talking about what happened on the cross, because that's

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where Jesus is.

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Speaker 1: I just read to you the passage where he's contrasting

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what we eat from what the Jews eat.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, let's read it then.

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Speaker 1: I just read it to you Hebrews thirteen. Do you

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want me to read it again?

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Speaker 2: Let me pull it up. Let me pull it up.

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Hebre's thirteen. Where are we at?

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Speaker 1: Verse nine?

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Speaker 2: Alrighty, all right, hold on yesterday today?

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Speaker 3: Do not so verse nine? He said, yeah, do not then.

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Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings.

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But it is good for the heart to be strengthened

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by grace, not by foods which have not benefited those

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devoted to them. We have an altar from which those

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who serve the tent have no right to eat.

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Speaker 1: Okay, down to verse thirteen.

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Speaker 3: All right, therefore, let us go to him outside the

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camp and bear the reproach he endured.

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Speaker 1: Thirteen. Now two thirteen. You're skipping the verses that are

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the most important.

474
00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:04,079
Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

475
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,839
Speaker 3: For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought

476
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,599
into the holy places by the high priest as a

477
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,720
sacrifice for sin are burned outside of the camp. So

478
00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:14,920
Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify

479
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,160
the people through his own blood. Therefore, let us go

480
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,200
to him outside the camp and bear reproach, Bear the

481
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,039
approach he endured.

482
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: Okay. And then the next verse.

483
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: Okay, For here we have no lasting city, but we

484
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,920
seek the city that is to come through him. Then

485
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,000
let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.

486
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: That is do you know what that word is there?

487
00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:47,440
What is the word eu charistia? Do you know what

488
00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:50,319
most Protestant scholars admit about this passage that.

489
00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 2: Means thanksgiving.

490
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: It means offering, which could be thanksgiving, or it could

491
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,319
be a ritual service or ceremony. The entire past is

492
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,599
about the superiority of our eucharistic offering and meal that

493
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,359
we eat versus what the Jews eat at the tabernacle

494
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,920
the animals. Okay, so you're removing the contrast and you're

495
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,480
literally you're literally saying that it's equivalent to the Old

496
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:18,640
Testament symbolism.

497
00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:20,279
Speaker 2: No, I'm not.

498
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 3: So how does this when you take Jesus's words into

499
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:29,920
consideration when he says God is seeking such people to

500
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,480
worship Him in spirit and in truth, and then the

501
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:34,359
New Covenant, the law is going to.

502
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: Be written on our hearts. We're transitioning to the truths

503
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,119
of the spirit here.

504
00:27:39,559 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: So I don't know what you think that means. Because

505
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:46,440
God gave the church a liturgical worship service that's not

506
00:27:46,519 --> 00:27:49,680
recorded in the New Testament, and all the Apostolic churches

507
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,119
have it. So I don't know what you mean by

508
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,720
worshiping in spirit and truth because we think that means liturgy,

509
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,079
because that's how God always was worshiped throughout the Old Testament.

510
00:27:58,039 --> 00:28:00,319
Speaker 3: Okay, So I mean right here he said, you know,

511
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,319
sacrifice of praise to God. That is so he defines

512
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,400
it the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

513
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: It's in the context now, it's in the context you're

514
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,440
doing a false either orger it means hold on, no,

515
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,920
it doesn't it's a false either or the whole context

516
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,640
is eating and you're saying, no, it's really just about

517
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,720
spiritual praising. Is this that the megachurch in the first century?

518
00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:24,519
Did Paul go to the megachurch where they were praising

519
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:25,920
with their lips and I didn't have the Eucharist?

520
00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 5: And by the way, spiriting truth doesn't mean not a

521
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:37,079
visible there church. It means the Holy Spirit, okay, the

522
00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:37,960
spirit of truth.

523
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,559
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so it is.

524
00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:45,359
Speaker 5: In a visible manifest visibly in a visible body.

525
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:47,279
Speaker 2: And like.

526
00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:52,119
Speaker 3: When Jesus says God is seeking such people to worship him,

527
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,200
what's the context?

528
00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:57,759
Speaker 1: You just keep assuming the evangelical spiritual low low, low

529
00:28:57,839 --> 00:29:00,920
church interpretation of all these passages, which you not demonstrated.

530
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,319
I'm giving you counter evidence to that low church symbolic interpretation,

531
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,839
and you're just restating the symbolism. All right, but you're

532
00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:12,240
not let me talk so because you just keep restating

533
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,279
that it's a symbolic thing.

534
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:16,759
Speaker 2: I don't think I've used the word symbol once.

535
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: Okay, you call it quote spiritual, which in your mind

536
00:29:20,519 --> 00:29:23,759
as an evangelical is contrasted to the physical or the flesh.

537
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:26,000
But that's why I keep making the point that that's

538
00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:28,880
what well, that's what Paul is contrasting to the Jews

539
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,359
who eat at the temple the Tabernacle in a carnal way.

540
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,720
He's not saying that the way to eat non carnally

541
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,839
is not with your mouth, because he says we eat

542
00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:43,240
at an altar. You don't have an alter.

543
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: Okay, So.

544
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 3: When Jesus says in John six, he says, come to me,

545
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:51,799
and you will never hunger.

546
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,079
Speaker 2: Believe in me, and you will never thirst.

547
00:29:54,599 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 3: So when Jesus says that, he says, you will never

548
00:29:57,319 --> 00:29:59,759
hunger and you will never thirst when you come to

549
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:03,279
him and believe, believe in him. Why then, so I

550
00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:08,920
know why I continually partake of the elements of the

551
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,680
bread and the wine. I know why I continually do that.

552
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,960
But why do you continually partake If Jesus says you

553
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,599
will never hunger and you will never thirst, why then

554
00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:26,960
in your tradition do you have to continually because bro

555
00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:34,240
hold on because in your theology that sacrifice does not

556
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,640
perfect you, because sin can still make you fall away

557
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,519
from grace, and therefore you need to come back to

558
00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:44,279
the throne of grace and reobtain.

559
00:30:43,799 --> 00:30:48,039
Speaker 2: What has been lost. And so when Jesus says, come to.

560
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:51,079
Speaker 3: Me, and you will never hunger, and believe in me,

561
00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:54,759
and you will never thirst, right, you're negating those.

562
00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: Wordstation hold on then jumping down.

563
00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:01,799
Speaker 2: Look, he says, gnaw my flesh. That must mean.

564
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,079
Speaker 3: That he's going to start this whole liturgical process of

565
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,599
calling him down from heaven into a wafer and his

566
00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:09,960
blood is made present.

567
00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: Catholics, we don't have wafers.

568
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,839
Speaker 2: Okay, well, whatever need I mean?

569
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,359
Speaker 1: You say whatever I mean? Roman Catholics use a judaized bread,

570
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,319
So it's that matters, all right.

571
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:31,519
Speaker 3: Point being, I don't know. I mean, we're jumping all

572
00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:32,160
over the place here.

573
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,039
Speaker 2: Well this was great because I remember this was brought

574
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,720
up once. I think it hormly. Why went to church

575
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:46,480
once I read some of the Bible. Isn't it enough?

576
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,920
You go get him Jesus, You go get him Jesus.

577
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:52,839
Why do I need to go to church again? Why

578
00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:53,880
do I need to know?

579
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:56,319
Speaker 1: This is just like an overly simple reading of.

580
00:31:56,319 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: Catholics a life source.

581
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:01,759
Speaker 5: And if you said from him in a different way,

582
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,839
like so, yes, of course you will never first, when

583
00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:08,480
you're with me, do all kinds of things that separate

584
00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:11,599
us from God's powers?

585
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 3: Okay, So when Paul says that nothing will separate him

586
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,920
from the love of Christ, I mean, is that nothing?

587
00:32:18,599 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: You know?

588
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,759
Speaker 1: You have to balance passages with other passages. You can't

589
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,079
take one verse and squeeze every verse into that verse.

590
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,359
Speaker 2: Because exactly I agree.

591
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:31,759
Speaker 1: But let me let me I agree.

592
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: Listen, six in a vacuum, you can't read John.

593
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,599
Speaker 1: I didn't take it. I went immediately to a eucharistic passage,

594
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:40,440
and he was thirteen to help explain it. I didn't

595
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,440
take it in a vacuum, and I argue that it

596
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:43,200
was only John six.

597
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,279
Speaker 2: The person read from John's perspective.

598
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that you have John's perspective.

599
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 3: Consistently in John's gospel.

600
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,319
Speaker 2: Jesus is very consistent.

601
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: In John chapter two, he uses the earthly metaphor of

602
00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:59,079
a temple being destroyed to represent the spiritual truth of

603
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,759
the resurrection of his The people who were there were

604
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:03,920
confused because.

605
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,519
Speaker 2: They were thinking physically. But the disciples, yeah, you just

606
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:06,960
keep it.

607
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,359
Speaker 1: Listen, you're making an assumption. Listen, I know what you're doing.

608
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,640
You're contrasting spirit. Listen, it's a false dilemma. You're contrasting

609
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:17,599
spirits of flesh.

610
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,839
Speaker 2: Number let me talk.

611
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: I already know what you're doing. It's not a good

612
00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:27,000
argument you're contrasting. No, it's not. It's a gnostic view.

613
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,519
I'm trying to tell you. That's why you're out of

614
00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:30,759
a chord with what the Church always thought about this.

615
00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: What is gnostic about my view? Mike, I see you

616
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:36,079
laughing out there, bro, I'll block.

617
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,519
Speaker 2: You, bruh.

618
00:33:38,079 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: What's gnostic is that the passages about spirit are not

619
00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:47,960
contrasted to body or physicality. It's Holy Spirit. And every

620
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,039
Protestant does this gnostic anti matter reading into these texts.

621
00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:53,640
I know. I used to be a Protestant. When I

622
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,640
read Romans, Paul talks about the body of the flesh

623
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,279
fighting the Spirit. I assumed that that was physical body

624
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,400
fighting the Holy Spirit because somehow quote immaterial things are

625
00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:07,640
better than physical things. And that's a gnostic heresy.

626
00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 3: Okay, No one is saying that immaterial things are better.

627
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,679
What we're saying is that is fallen and needs renewal.

628
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,239
The first coming of Christ, Why is there a second

629
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,280
coming of Christ? The first coming of Christ is to

630
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,599
deal with our sin, and what did sin do? According

631
00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:27,559
to Ezekiel, the soul dies from sin.

632
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:29,559
Speaker 1: So the first body and the soul dies. So I

633
00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:30,519
don't know what you're talking about.

634
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 3: Well, yes, through Adam, all flesh dies because because all sin.

635
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,880
So yes, the flesh and the soul die. But jesus

636
00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:41,320
first coming was to make us born again in the spirit,

637
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:41,679
and this.

638
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,119
Speaker 1: Is and that happens through baptism, water.

639
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,639
Speaker 2: Baptism physical. Okay, sure.

640
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: Now wait a minute, so you're saying sure, now there's

641
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,719
water that's used as a medium of regeneration. You're saying

642
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,800
sure to that you agree with that.

643
00:34:56,519 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 2: No, I don't. But you're I mean, you're just shifting.

644
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,320
What argument do you want to focus on? You want

645
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:01,760
to jump in?

646
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: No, I'm making another point that physical things like water

647
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,440
are mediums of grace. That's why an Acts two, it says,

648
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,239
repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins,

649
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,760
and then it says that thousands of them were actually

650
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,199
physically water baptized.

651
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,679
Speaker 2: Okay, so Cornelius receive the spirit without water.

652
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that God can't send his Holy Spirit

653
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,960
and do it in that way. But in Acts two

654
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,840
thirty eight, as well as Titus three. It specifies that

655
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,559
the labor of baptism is the labor of regeneration? Does

656
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:30,679
Titus three not say that?

657
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 2: Repeat yourself?

658
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: Does Titus three not call the labor of baptism the

659
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:39,360
lavor of regeneration?

660
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: I'll have to go study that I'm not gonna do.

661
00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: And that's the same thing Peter's talking about in Act two.

662
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,920
I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit can't move outside

663
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:54,400
of the presence of water, but the normative means by

664
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,000
which regeneration occurs is through physical water. So throughout all

665
00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:03,079
of this, your war is against physical objects, and all

666
00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:06,719
of your interpretations are that somehow quote spirit is anti matter.

667
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,599
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, got it.

668
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 3: That's your interpretation of what my position is.

669
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: Is that not your position?

670
00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: Back to what I was saying, John three, So you're.

671
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: Not gonna address any verses. You're just gonna do a

672
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:22,920
walk through of what I already addressed.

673
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yes, because you're you're shifting the you're shifting

674
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,159
the goal posts.

675
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: No, bringing up further examples is not moving the goal post.

676
00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:32,599
That's a different fallacy.

677
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: You gotta let me were I told.

678
00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: You, you're a you're walking through. So when you say, okay,

679
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,320
Jesus's body is the true temple and you destroy the

680
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,159
other temple, that doesn't help your case. Jesus' body is physical, No.

681
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: I yes, I agree.

682
00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 3: The physical body of Christ was necessary, was absolutely necessary,

683
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,280
because just as sin came into the world through the flesh,

684
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,960
it had to be destroyed in the flesh.

685
00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: How does this prove your low view of sacraments.

686
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,039
Speaker 2: I don't have a low view of SACRAMENTO.

687
00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:11,559
Speaker 1: Yes, you do. By definition, you literally do.

688
00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:14,679
Speaker 2: I believe that communion is worship.

689
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: Is water, baptism regeneration.

690
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: I believe that I.

691
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,599
Speaker 3: Am regenerated by the Holy Spirit prior.

692
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,519
Speaker 1: To water baptists. Then you have a low view of

693
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:29,920
the sacraments. By definition, baptism is worship. And is it

694
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,760
the labor of regeneration according to Titus three five, not

695
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,199
by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according

696
00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:37,920
to his mercy. He saved us through the washing of

697
00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:39,079
the labor regeneration.

698
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

699
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: And the and he Peter describes the waters as what's

700
00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:45,880
not doing the washing there?

701
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:47,559
Speaker 2: It's the spirit.

702
00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: Now he says that it's not washing your body. He

703
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:50,920
doesn't say it's not water.

704
00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 3: He says, yet not by a washing of dirt off

705
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:55,599
your body.

706
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,119
Speaker 1: So not taking a bath. Water baptism is not a bath.

707
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,039
Speaker 2: So he's made a distinction that, No, he's not.

708
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 1: It's not a bath, it's water baptism. Do you think

709
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,199
when you're taking a bath at night that that's the

710
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,079
same thing as a baptism. So that's what Peter's talking about.

711
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:15,039
He's not saying that there's not a presence of the

712
00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:17,719
Holy Spirit to regenerate you at water baptism.

713
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: I didn't say that the Holy Spirit was not present

714
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:20,639
in baptism.

715
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: You said that it's not regeneration. You just said that.

716
00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: I believe that.

717
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,519
Speaker 3: I believe that the Christian is regenerated by the Holy

718
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:30,239
Spirit through faith prior to baptism.

719
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: You're saying that, But the Bible doesn't say that. It

720
00:38:33,079 --> 00:38:36,280
continually links it to the celebration of the sacrament.

721
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: It doesn't use that exact wording.

722
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: But should No, it doesn't. My examples that you won't

723
00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:44,119
talk about literally link it to baptism.

724
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 3: Cornelius, I mean, dude, I mean you're saying, oh, but

725
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:47,559
that's just an exception like that.

726
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: No, it's not. The Holy Spirit can move, the Holy

727
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:52,599
Spirit can remove.

728
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 2: You're taking the work of God and saying, no, that's

729
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,320
an exception. No, I'm not.

730
00:38:57,519 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with all of the passages, and that's that's prior.

731
00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:04,599
The thief on the cross is prior to the institution

732
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,360
of water baptism and Acts two as the normative means.

733
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,480
I already said normative. I didn't deny the possibility the

734
00:39:10,519 --> 00:39:12,000
Holy Spirit doing and moving.

735
00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 6: People.

736
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: Stop interrupting me. You're new to all this, man, make.

737
00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:19,119
Speaker 2: The distinction of normative means of grace.

738
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're done.

739
00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 2: When does that? When does it make that distinction?

740
00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:27,559
Speaker 1: So you okay, you literally think that using terminology that

741
00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:30,320
helps to clarify is not in the Bible itself. Is

742
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,119
the word trinity in the Bible. No, but so that's

743
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:36,320
a double standard. You're using the double standard.

744
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,559
Speaker 2: It's perfectly laid out. No, I'm just saying, like, where

745
00:39:39,639 --> 00:39:41,119
are you establishing that?

746
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: You said that there's no example. All the examples I'm

747
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,599
giving you acts too, where it says repent and be

748
00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:51,360
baptized for their mission of sins, and then they're water

749
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,719
baptized in next two right, and then but.

750
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: And then it says John baptized with water.

751
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: But that's the Old Testament they did it. Or what

752
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,000
do you know? When is when is Jesus' baptism instituted?

753
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 2: When he sends the Holy Spirit?

754
00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: No, at the end of the Gospel, when he says,

755
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,039
go forth and baptize all the nations, that's when he

756
00:40:16,119 --> 00:40:20,440
institutes it. Before he stopped interrupting me, he shut up.

757
00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:25,119
He says it is a trinitarian ritual action, and that's

758
00:40:25,159 --> 00:40:27,559
what they do in Acts. Matthew twenty eight is talking

759
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:30,719
about water baptism. You didn't even know that.

760
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 2: No, I know what, Matthew.

761
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: You know you said baptism was instituted at Pentecost. You

762
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,639
said Acts two. It's Matthew twenty eight, not Acts too.

763
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,519
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, all right. I was confused by.

764
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: Your question, the obvious question that everyone should know when

765
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,960
was baptism instituted? You were confused by that? How would

766
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:58,519
you be confused by a basic question?

767
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 5: All right, I'm sorry to ask a question about normative means.

768
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: It's established that so you can't appeal to cases.

769
00:41:12,639 --> 00:41:18,639
Speaker 5: Prior to the institution of baptism is possibly Norman means. Now,

770
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,480
as jab pointed out, that can God send the Holy

771
00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:27,800
Spirit and save somebody apart from the normative means, sure,

772
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,679
but Protestants always take an.

773
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,039
Speaker 1: Exception of the rule to be the example.

774
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 2: To be the example, then I can do that.

775
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 5: It's exactly the same analogy of saying, well, could I

776
00:41:39,199 --> 00:41:42,400
say there a terminal cancer without going to a specialist

777
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,320
in the hospital. It's like, yeah, but okay, maybe there

778
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,440
was a case or two where that happened. Like why

779
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,280
in the world would you build a whole therapy on

780
00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:53,719
not going to.

781
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:55,519
Speaker 2: Get healed because you could be healed apart from the

782
00:41:55,559 --> 00:41:59,079
normative means? That's Protestantism for you. It's crazy. It's like, well,

783
00:41:59,159 --> 00:41:59,960
even if you found the.

784
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 7: Cases, do we're exception to the rules after the institution

785
00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:09,079
of baptism, you're going to base a rule on the

786
00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:11,679
exception to the rule and put yourself in that sort

787
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,920
of danger. That's just seems crazy to me.

788
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,199
Speaker 2: Call me crazy, Okay, we will.

789
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and I and I I understand that, like

790
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,320
we're in agreement that we disagree with each other, and

791
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,079
I'm just trying to, you know.

792
00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:30,599
Speaker 1: Have a well, no, it's been a great conversation.

793
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, and I have apologize that we're getting a

794
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:33,880
little right.

795
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: Maybe we can shift a little bit because we're going

796
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,000
to disagree there. Maybe a more fundamental question would be,

797
00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:43,719
how do you know what the word of God is

798
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,239
in terms of the canon of scripture, and what is

799
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:47,519
your basis for it?

800
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:55,119
Speaker 2: The Cannon conundrum Protestant nightmare. Yeah, so, I mean.

801
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,639
Speaker 3: I would say that the recognition of infallibility does not

802
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:08,719
require the possession of infallibility. The simple historical fact, and

803
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,760
this is a historical fact that I think we should

804
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,079
all agree on, is that neither Jewish reception of the

805
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:20,880
Old Testament nor early Christian reception of the Scriptures.

806
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,199
Speaker 2: Happened through means of infallibility. Period.

807
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you just contradict yourself within like three sentences.

808
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:28,519
You just said that.

809
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,599
Speaker 2: Just take apart my statement.

810
00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 1: Please, it's the first thing you said, which was confused.

811
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,400
I don't know what you mean by infallibility can happen

812
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,239
through What did you say? How did you phrase it?

813
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:45,639
Speaker 3: Recognition of infallibility meaning recognizing God's word does not require

814
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:48,960
possession of infallibility, meaning that.

815
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 1: I have so Mouthew, so mouthe, you might not have

816
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,920
written Matthew's Gospel.

817
00:43:57,159 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 2: I'm not answering that's a that's.

818
00:43:58,559 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: A you're not going to answer it.

819
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: It's like, like, I don't understand.

820
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 3: I don't understand how to answer that question.

821
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,599
Speaker 1: Well, it's an important question because it underdoes the assumptions

822
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:12,440
of your argument. So why would you I don't understand.

823
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,000
Why wouldn't at least attempt to answer it.

824
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: Well, it's a topic that I'm not well studied on.

825
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, Apostolic authorship is very important for inclusion into

826
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,880
the canon, and Matthew's Gospel doesn't tell you that Matthew

827
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,119
the Disciple wrote it. So guess where you get that

828
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:37,880
knowledge from. Tell me tradition, got it? So you're relying

829
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,440
on tradition? Is that also perhaps wrong?

830
00:44:43,079 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: All right? Well Acts seventeen eleven.

831
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: You're not so you two quote fallacy. You're asking me

832
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,440
a question when I asked you a question. Yeah, that's

833
00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:59,559
two quote way fallacy. All right, whatever, all right, whatever,

834
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,079
So you don't think fallausy is matter. I don't understand

835
00:45:03,079 --> 00:45:06,679
why you just blow past this. I asked you a

836
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,880
question and you say I'm not going to answer it,

837
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,519
and then I'm gonna You're gonna ask me a question

838
00:45:10,599 --> 00:45:12,480
that's called a two quote quay fallacy, and then you

839
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:13,519
say whatever.

840
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 3: Okay, uh, well, ask the question again, what are we

841
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,800
saying here? I told you I'm not an expert on

842
00:45:21,119 --> 00:45:24,559
how we have determined how math that Matthew wrote the

843
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:25,400
Gospel of Matthew.

844
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:26,639
Speaker 1: The only way is through tradition.

845
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,639
Speaker 3: I'm not going to speak on something i'm not an

846
00:45:28,679 --> 00:45:30,800
expert in because I will make myself out to be

847
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,119
a fool. And I don't intend on I don't intend

848
00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:35,719
on doing that. And I see all you guys laughing

849
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,559
in the and you know out there, why don't you

850
00:45:38,559 --> 00:45:40,599
come up here and you know, tell me why we

851
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:42,239
have every single book of the Bible, you know.

852
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,599
Speaker 1: All right, So look, let's just stop there, because I

853
00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:46,360
don't want us to go in a bad direction. We

854
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,000
can go and study and read and you can look

855
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:51,320
into the question if you want, and maybe we can

856
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,960
come back, and we don't. I don't want this to

857
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,199
go in like a sour direction because well, you apologize,

858
00:45:56,199 --> 00:45:57,159
you're you're a good dude.

859
00:45:57,199 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: Go ahead, I want to say. I want to say

860
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,440
one thing. Sure, all right, guys, come on like y'all hear.

861
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: Don't worry about the chick.

862
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 2: Look, you can't look at a chance, just don't. Yeah,

863
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,000
all right, Well, so how do we determine what scripture is?

864
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:17,519
Speaker 3: And my simple answer, and I know this isn't going

865
00:46:17,559 --> 00:46:22,480
to satisfy uh, the people who are listening, but proposed say, okay,

866
00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:25,639
say you have something, you're proposing something to be the

867
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:28,840
word of God. Say, look, I have this is I'm

868
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,320
calling this the Gospel of Matthew. Matthew wrote it. It's

869
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,199
the Word of God. And i've you know, I've never

870
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,159
seen it before. I haven't studied or anything. What's my first,

871
00:46:39,519 --> 00:46:40,360
you know line of action?

872
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 2: That That's why I was pointing to Acts seventeen eleven.

873
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:44,920
So you have.

874
00:46:45,039 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: Proposed, so you're begging the question because we don't know

875
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,800
yet that Acts is actually part of the scriptures.

876
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,679
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm just using what happened in Acts as an

877
00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:56,519
example of what could be done to determine what is

878
00:46:56,519 --> 00:46:57,159
the Word of God.

879
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 1: But that example is assuming the thing in question, because

880
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,199
we don't know yet that that's even allowed in the canon.

881
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,880
Maybe Acts, maybe, Luke. You know about like the pseudonymous

882
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,960
Gospels and the you know, Gnostic Gospels, the false Gospels, right.

883
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 3: There are objective ways in which we have found them

884
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:18,000
to be unreliable.

885
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,199
Speaker 1: And I'm not I understand that. But I'm just pointing

886
00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:23,880
out that just because there's a name mentioned like Luke,

887
00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:27,400
or even if it said Matthew, like, it doesn't tell

888
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,960
you that that's authentically the disciple of Jesus. It might be.

889
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 2: You know, we're getting off topic.

890
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: So no, it's not on topic. It's perfectly on topic.

891
00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 2: Okay, we have proposed, we have proposed word of God.

892
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,480
This is proposed to be the speech of God.

893
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,559
Speaker 3: You take what you know to be the speech of

894
00:47:45,559 --> 00:47:49,039
God and measure it against what is proposed.

895
00:47:48,519 --> 00:47:49,599
Speaker 2: To be the speech of God.

896
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have the apostles coming to the church in

897
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,079
Berea and its preaching the Gospel to them.

898
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,679
Speaker 1: And then this doesn't work as an example because acts.

899
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,480
You don't know that Acts is the word of God.

900
00:48:03,559 --> 00:48:05,599
So you're using a thing in question. So it's begging

901
00:48:05,639 --> 00:48:08,559
the question. Can I give you an example of what

902
00:48:08,599 --> 00:48:12,400
I'm talking about? If you scroll down on my wall,

903
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,079
you'll see an old tweet that I retweeted called Protestantism

904
00:48:15,079 --> 00:48:17,840
and solicripture refuted. And what I do there is I

905
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,960
use the Baptist textual scholar Lee McDonald's list of the

906
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,079
debates about the canon and the different church father lists

907
00:48:26,079 --> 00:48:29,320
into fourth, fifth, sixth century, and you'll notice that whether

908
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,960
it's the New Testament or the Old Testament, there's variation

909
00:48:33,159 --> 00:48:36,320
amongst all of these different lists. So what I want

910
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,599
to know is whether it's Origin or whether it's Chrysostom,

911
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,239
or whether it's Athanasius's list or Serial of Jerusalem's lists.

912
00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:47,440
How do you, as a Protestant know or what do

913
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:50,119
we do to determine amongst these church fathers who are

914
00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:52,360
not Protestant, which one is the right list?

915
00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 3: Exactly what I was saying, you know, take the what

916
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,039
we know to be the speech of God, which.

917
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: We're using the Book of Acts, and the Book of

918
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,800
Acts is not known yet to be the word of God.

919
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:05,760
That's the thing in question.

920
00:49:07,039 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, okay, so how how do we know,

921
00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:15,199
I mean what.

922
00:49:15,079 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: The earliest.

923
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,519
Speaker 3: Testimony of the church, I mean the apostles themselves handed

924
00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:28,159
these letters letters off to someone, right, yes, yeah.

925
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: So yeah, but you know we don't have onograthha.

926
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: Right, no, yes, yes, I know, I know.

927
00:49:34,599 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: Okay, so how do we know the authentic from the

928
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:43,280
non authentic ones? Do you know what the earliest list

929
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:44,760
of canon of the canon.

930
00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 3: Is the earliest not necessarily, But I do know that

931
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,000
there are lists prior to you know, the Council that

932
00:49:54,039 --> 00:49:58,920
everybody loves to reference in like what three eighty three

933
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,079
eighty three or something like that.

934
00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: There were plenty of lists prior to that.

935
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: I don't know about plenty of it, but they're from.

936
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:09,599
Speaker 3: A handful a handful, and funny enough, most of them

937
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:11,360
were closer to the Proian canon.

938
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: No, that is completely false. You're totally wrong. I mean,

939
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:16,679
I've got them pulled up. Do you want to look,

940
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,599
you want to walk through them and see that that's false.

941
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,119
Speaker 2: No, I didn't say they were exactly.

942
00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: But no, they're not even close to the Protestant canon. Okay,

943
00:50:27,159 --> 00:50:29,440
let's just simply not you. I've got Canon eighty five

944
00:50:29,639 --> 00:50:31,880
of the Apostolic cannons pulled up right here. This is

945
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,239
one of the earliest. The other earliest is the Canons

946
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,800
of Laodicea and the canon that's listed in the Apostolic

947
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,280
Canons from the three hundreds. It includes oh oh, the

948
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,519
Deutero canon that is not the Protestant canon.

949
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:45,519
Speaker 2: Okay, so you got one.

950
00:50:46,079 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: No, this is not one. This is canon law, church

951
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:54,159
law for the church in general, having a normative canon.

952
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,159
Speaker 2: Where is this originating from? This is just church? Everyone

953
00:50:58,199 --> 00:50:59,599
in general is agreeing on it.

954
00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: Of the church that follows the Apostolic canons. Correct, it's

955
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,639
the earliest, it's the Let me finish, it's the earliest.

956
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,280
Let me finish. It's the earliest collection of canon law

957
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:11,920
in the churches in the three hundreds.

958
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 3: Okay, and then you have plenty of testimony after that

959
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,440
saying that the canon is second tier canon, a distinct

960
00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:25,239
good for edification but not for faith.

961
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,199
Speaker 1: And no, that's not true. What does Athenians say that

962
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:29,639
the deal canon is for?

963
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: I don't know.

964
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,559
Speaker 1: He says it's for the Catecumans.

965
00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I haven't I have said that. So I

966
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:36,280
can't speak on.

967
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: That because, well that refutes what you just said. Athenasian

968
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,760
is not just one guy. What is is what is St? Augustine?

969
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,480
What does Augustine say about the drill can.

970
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 2: He affirmed the exactly right.

971
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:51,119
Speaker 1: So is that now, two guys?

972
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:52,199
Speaker 2: What about Jerome?

973
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: What about Wait a minute, no, serial Jeralism, Serial Jeruism

974
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,719
doesn't have the Protestant canon. He doesn't help your case.

975
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,199
You have one, No, he doesn't. You have one? Church Father, Jerome,

976
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,920
Why are we supposed to follow Jerome Jerusalem. No, he doesn't.

977
00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:09,559
He doesn't have your canon. He does not have the

978
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:10,519
Protestant canon.

979
00:52:11,639 --> 00:52:13,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he included Baruk.

980
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not the Protestant canon. And I don't think

981
00:52:16,159 --> 00:52:20,639
he has revelation if I recall. So, how does how

982
00:52:20,679 --> 00:52:22,079
does Cyril Jerusalem help your case?

983
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:24,199
Speaker 2: Old Testament that's no, no, no, it's not.

984
00:52:24,159 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: Just the Old Testament. It's both the New Testament and

985
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,519
the Old Testament. It's the canon.

986
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 2: That's what. That's what where we differ here that you're wrong. No,

987
00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:35,840
the Old Testament that's I'm talking about.

988
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: No, I'm talking about the canon. That's not just the

989
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:44,960
Old Testament. There's differing New Testament lists. Athanatius goes to

990
00:52:45,039 --> 00:52:48,840
Rome to convince Rome of Hebrews and Revelation because they

991
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,800
didn't think it was canonical. Cyril of Jerusalem does not

992
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:56,039
have Revelation in his canon. Okay, so that doesn't help

993
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:56,440
your case.

994
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,599
Speaker 2: I'm aware that there was debate on.

995
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: Okay, so how do we know which one's right we follow?

996
00:53:00,519 --> 00:53:01,400
That's my question.

997
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,519
Speaker 2: Again, back to what I said earlier.

998
00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:06,199
Speaker 3: You test what is proposed to be the speech of

999
00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:07,760
God with what is known to be the speech.

1000
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:09,639
Speaker 1: Of God, and you're referring to the Book of Acts,

1001
00:53:09,639 --> 00:53:10,360
which is in question.

1002
00:53:12,039 --> 00:53:15,519
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, well, I feel like I'm not really

1003
00:53:15,559 --> 00:53:18,920
getting myself anywhere. But let me ask you, how do

1004
00:53:19,039 --> 00:53:22,159
you determine what is the Canada Scripture?

1005
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: Well, for the Orthodox Church, the highest authority is an

1006
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:26,559
ecumenical council.

1007
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so a bunch of dudes that just decide.

1008
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 1: No, not a bunch of dudes. It's the church fathers

1009
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,320
with Apostolic succession, who have the gift to the Holy

1010
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,159
Spirit given to them. Does Paul say that the Holy

1011
00:53:39,199 --> 00:53:42,320
Spirit's transferred the Lanyon of Hands to Timothy?

1012
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, absolutely?

1013
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,639
Speaker 1: Oh but you think that that's not true because you

1014
00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:46,840
don't believe in Apsoltic.

1015
00:53:46,519 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 2: Succession, not in the way you defind it.

1016
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,519
Speaker 1: Now, I just said what happens in the in the

1017
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,679
in Timothy, So what do you mean?

1018
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Paul also says that after he leaves.

1019
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 3: The church, false Christians will infiltrate the church successfully.

1020
00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: No he doesn't say successfully the church. No, No, he

1021
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,440
does not. He says that they will enter.

1022
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 2: The church away, the disciples draw away.

1023
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,679
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean the destroy the church. The gates of

1024
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:13,199
Hell cannot prevail against the church.

1025
00:54:13,159 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 2: Never said that, never said the gates of hell prevailed.

1026
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: But if they infiltrate and subvert the Church, then the

1027
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:20,559
gates of hell prevailed.

1028
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 2: You have this line.

1029
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,199
Speaker 1: Now you're changing, so you don't want to address you

1030
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:23,880
throw stuff out.

1031
00:54:24,159 --> 00:54:26,159
Speaker 3: Is this line of succession that you have? Is this

1032
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:28,119
list of men? Is that an infallible list?

1033
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: It's it's not a question of infallibility list. It's not

1034
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:37,119
a question of infallibility. If I know that the Testament

1035
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:43,119
stop interrupting me. Athanasius says, for example, that at the

1036
00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:46,519
council and I see the Holy Spirit spoke through those fathers, right,

1037
00:54:47,119 --> 00:54:51,519
So I don't have to accord to the councils when

1038
00:54:51,559 --> 00:54:54,920
they state something about the scriptures the same status of

1039
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,800
divine revelation. I would say, divine revelation is infallible. But

1040
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,800
I don't believe that divine revelation is restricted to written texts.

1041
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,880
And you do. But when when Peter and Paul preach,

1042
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:06,440
they call it the Word of God, do you believe

1043
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,639
that it's only written or believe that the preaching is.

1044
00:55:08,599 --> 00:55:12,559
Speaker 3: Also I believe, Yeah, the apostolic testimony oral written.

1045
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: The okay, So is there an oral thing that's passed on.

1046
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 3: No, we're not told that oral tradition would be passed

1047
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:21,639
on infallibly.

1048
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,559
Speaker 1: Now, no, is it whether you think it's infallible or not,

1049
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:25,719
is that it passed on at all?

1050
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, the oral tradition has always passed on.

1051
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: Okay, And was what about one of those things being

1052
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:34,480
the authorship of.

1053
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 2: Matthew Like I said, that's not something I'm.

1054
00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:42,159
Speaker 1: Because it refused you, because it refused the point you

1055
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:42,559
just made?

1056
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: What point? And how does it refeet the point?

1057
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,039
Speaker 1: It's apostolic tradition that Matthew the disciple wrote the Gospel

1058
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:55,360
of Matthew. Okay, that refutes the point you just made?

1059
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 2: What and what point? What did I say? That being

1060
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:00,920
refuted here?

1061
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: If you can deny the oral tradition and that we don't,

1062
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,559
we're not bound by that, then I'm not bound by

1063
00:56:07,599 --> 00:56:10,679
the claim of the church that Matthew disciple wrote Matthew's Gospel,

1064
00:56:10,679 --> 00:56:16,800
and I can throw out Matthew on your position that

1065
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,519
all right? That yeah, okay, well there we go. Good job.

1066
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,199
That's where Protestant leads to chopping up the protests and

1067
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,480
leads that's what Luther did. By the way, when Luther and.

1068
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 8: And notice to the confusion as we always see the

1069
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:35,920
two categories between normative what's binding, and an epistemic category

1070
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:37,039
of infallibility.

1071
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 2: So uh St Paul says, you're too old. He's speaking

1072
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:44,960
about normative, right.

1073
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:49,599
Speaker 5: So it's a separate question, and we can answer that

1074
00:56:50,159 --> 00:56:54,400
whether the oral teachings and the written teachings are infallible

1075
00:56:54,519 --> 00:56:57,719
or not. But that's a separate question. Is it binding

1076
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,800
on you? Do you have to hold it? And Saint

1077
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,239
Paul obviously says you do. I had to be bound

1078
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:05,800
to a line of succession.

1079
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: Yes you do. Yeah, Paul just said, And I gave

1080
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,840
you one example of this oral teaching, which was that

1081
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,519
Matthew the Disciple wrote the Gospel of Matthew. And you said, no,

1082
00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:19,480
I don't have to believe that, and fine, throw it out.

1083
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 2: Okay, see you cut me off.

1084
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: That's what you said.

1085
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:23,679
Speaker 2: That's not what I said.

1086
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:25,719
Speaker 1: That's what you said. What are you talking about? People

1087
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,119
just heard you say it. Fine, I don't accept that.

1088
00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:32,039
Speaker 2: That's not what What did you say? Okay? You said,

1089
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,000
oh so yeah, you know, so you can just.

1090
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 3: Throw out the idea that that Matthew wrote the gospel.

1091
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,719
And I was like, yeah, that's what you just and

1092
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,719
then you cut me off. You're like Lucy, He said, yeah,

1093
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:42,760
you cut me off, you put words in my mouth.

1094
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,119
Speaker 1: No, no, I'm stating that.

1095
00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:46,599
Speaker 3: You say, oh, just like Martin Luther cut books out

1096
00:57:46,599 --> 00:57:48,920
of the Bible. Martin Luther actually never took books out.

1097
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: Of No, he actually did. He removed the dual can

1098
00:57:51,559 --> 00:57:55,760
no in the German New Testament. He changed words, and

1099
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,519
then when he translated his Bible it does not have

1100
00:57:58,559 --> 00:58:00,920
the duro canon. I've read six of Luther's books.

1101
00:58:00,639 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 2: And the first edition of Who.

1102
00:58:02,719 --> 00:58:06,119
Speaker 1: Cares about his first edition? If the tradition later on

1103
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:08,719
is that he says, I want to punch Moses' teeth out,

1104
00:58:08,719 --> 00:58:11,400
and I don't care about the law, and he doesn't believe.

1105
00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:14,519
He says that Maccabee's is not scripture because it doesn't

1106
00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:16,599
preach the word of God and includes prayers for the dead.

1107
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:24,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree on what basis that?

1108
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,079
Speaker 3: Well, first off, that it doesn't it doesn't align with

1109
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,480
the testimony of scripture.

1110
00:58:29,199 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: Again begging the question, the question is how do you

1111
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,639
know what's in scripture? And you're saying that Matcwbees isn't

1112
00:58:34,679 --> 00:58:36,760
scripture because it doesn't align with scripture.

1113
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, scripture isn't one book, So.

1114
00:58:41,199 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: Okay, that's totally totally dishonest. Get out of here with

1115
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:56,880
that nonsense, Mike, Mike, I'm mute.

1116
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 6: Hey, Jay, what's up, sir? Oh wait, did did Indiana

1117
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:04,400
get booted?

1118
00:59:04,639 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: Yep?

1119
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:06,239
Speaker 2: Oh?

1120
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,239
Speaker 6: Man, Okay, Well I was I was just gonna say.

1121
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,239
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know how you came to, you know,

1122
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,440
get him in his face because he agreed to debate

1123
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,280
with myself being moderated by Jake growth Nak about you know,

1124
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,639
solo Scriptura's hatred of Mary. So I was just gonna,

1125
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,079
you know, warn you about the type of guy that

1126
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:26,679
he is. And I came in a little late, so

1127
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:28,400
I guess you guys are having a good discussion and

1128
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:29,519
that it morphed into something.

1129
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: Well we've already gone for an hour, so it's I

1130
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:33,679
gave him one out, I give another out.

1131
00:59:34,559 --> 00:59:36,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's he's a total dishonest actor.

1132
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,159
Speaker 4: If he doesn't have chat, GPT or his notes in

1133
00:59:39,159 --> 00:59:40,239
front of him, he can't talk.

1134
00:59:41,199 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 6: The dude is a total snake in the grass. But

1135
00:59:43,039 --> 00:59:45,119
you know, kudos to you for.

1136
00:59:45,119 --> 00:59:45,639
Speaker 2: Having him on.

1137
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,599
Speaker 4: He he literally blocks or you know, runs away from

1138
00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:51,239
any other debate so I'm glad to see that at

1139
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:52,159
least he spoke to him.

1140
00:59:53,239 --> 00:59:55,039
Speaker 1: Well, he also says that I'm not in a position

1141
00:59:55,079 --> 00:59:56,440
to debate, but he's right to debate.

1142
00:59:56,559 --> 00:59:58,559
Speaker 6: So no, he's he's in it.

1143
00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 9: I don't even understan and how anyone who could hold

1144
01:00:01,239 --> 01:00:03,679
full of scripture can give an interpretation of what he

1145
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:08,039
believes a passage from a scripture means doesn't make any

1146
01:00:08,039 --> 01:00:11,719
sense to me. But you know, I enjoyed your talk

1147
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,039
with him, as I enjoy pretty much a lot of

1148
01:00:14,039 --> 01:00:14,760
the things that you do.

1149
01:00:15,639 --> 01:00:17,039
Speaker 6: So I just wanted to say that, and I wish

1150
01:00:17,119 --> 01:00:18,400
he was on here because I did.

1151
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 4: I did challenge him to a boxing match, and I

1152
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,840
said that if he won, I would leave the Catholic

1153
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:29,280
Church and go to whatever church he worships at Quip.

1154
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,639
Speaker 1: I actually was thinking too, because he initially before he apologized,

1155
01:00:33,639 --> 01:00:36,000
had lied about what I said and then he apologized.

1156
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,039
So I'm not gonna go that route, but I wanted

1157
01:00:38,079 --> 01:00:40,239
to offer a boxing match as well. I'm not kidding.

1158
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:41,679
Speaker 6: No, the dude.

1159
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 4: The dude says that he finally, Oh, I finally you know,

1160
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,679
have a script to debate how to be Christian.

1161
01:00:47,079 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 6: That's been easily six months in the works.

1162
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,559
Speaker 4: I don't I don't know of anybody who needs six

1163
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:56,079
months to prepare for a simple debate on either a

1164
01:00:56,119 --> 01:00:59,800
space or YouTube. He's full of He's full of bs.

1165
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,960
I mean, he posts pictures of you know, the Virgin

1166
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:06,599
Mary on the shoe, you know, of people with with

1167
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:08,880
the title saying, oh, look at this ship that I

1168
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:09,320
stepped in.

1169
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,239
Speaker 6: I just I can't stand him, and I wish he

1170
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,440
would have been here so I can confront him in person.

1171
01:01:13,719 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 2: Lord of Mercy. I can't imagine on Judgment Day what

1172
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:20,559
Christ is.

1173
01:01:20,519 --> 01:01:23,599
Speaker 5: Going to be, what Christ is actually going to say

1174
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:24,800
to people who I.

1175
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,519
Speaker 2: Mean, if you dissed somebody's mother, that's worse than dissing.

1176
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:29,639
We'll come on in.

1177
01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 5: Anyways, I thought that was a way out here.

1178
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,599
Speaker 1: But again, thank you for doing what you do, and well,

1179
01:01:37,639 --> 01:01:39,719
I appreciate that. I mean, you're welcome to stay and

1180
01:01:39,719 --> 01:01:41,480
we can have a conversation about Rome if you want.

1181
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 4: I I defer to someone better than me.

1182
01:01:46,599 --> 01:01:48,119
Speaker 6: Obviously I'm not going to get into that.

1183
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:53,119
Speaker 4: But yeah, but always again, appreciate you and I'll see

1184
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:55,039
you know, I'll keep listening a stay for only about

1185
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:55,920
five more minutes.

1186
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:01,679
Speaker 1: Okay, welcome everybody. We had a good conversation there for

1187
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,119
over an hour. If you would like to support the stream,

1188
01:02:04,119 --> 01:02:06,280
you can do so via the superchet function there. Superchets

1189
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:09,880
are also pinned there. You can do it also natively

1190
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,679
with YouTube. If you would like to call in, you

1191
01:02:12,719 --> 01:02:17,679
can call in through the x space right here. Here

1192
01:02:17,719 --> 01:02:24,920
is the xpace link to call in. And let's do

1193
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,480
a little brief look at this before we go to

1194
01:02:27,519 --> 01:02:29,800
the next person in line. Looks like we got quite

1195
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:34,000
a few people in line. So this is Lee McDonald's

1196
01:02:34,039 --> 01:02:40,800
book where he lists the canon from various Old and

1197
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,559
New Testament lists from various church fathers. I recommend every

1198
01:02:44,559 --> 01:02:47,719
Protestant who's interested in this question to read Lee McDonald's

1199
01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:50,360
book because it's one of the best, as well as F. F.

1200
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,519
Bruce's book Kennel Scripture that admits, from the evangelical perspective,

1201
01:02:54,679 --> 01:03:01,280
the absolutely indispensable aspect of church tradition in determining not

1202
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,400
just the canon, but the authenticity and authorship of the

1203
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,960
various manuscript copies. This is so key because so many

1204
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,559
Protestants when they hear this argument, they think, oh, you're

1205
01:03:13,559 --> 01:03:16,119
just saying that I need infammable decisions to know what

1206
01:03:16,159 --> 01:03:18,079
the Bible is. No, no, no, it's not just a

1207
01:03:18,119 --> 01:03:21,719
question of normandive authority about a binding canon. It's also

1208
01:03:21,719 --> 01:03:27,360
a question about the authenticity and authorship of disputed texts

1209
01:03:27,519 --> 01:03:33,519
versus pseudopographa and varying lists amongst the church fathers. So

1210
01:03:33,599 --> 01:03:35,440
here we have Leemacdald. This won't take but a second.

1211
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,920
Here we have Lee McDonald listing the Old Testament books

1212
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,159
in the Eastern Church in the fourth and fifth century,

1213
01:03:42,199 --> 01:03:47,360
and you'll notice there is some variation with Athanasius, basically

1214
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:52,280
including elements of the Duduro canon. And Athanasius says that

1215
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,639
the Dudo canon is for catech humans to read. So

1216
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:57,760
even if we and we don't have a problem in

1217
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,360
the Ortho our church with the phrase dujuo canon, you say,

1218
01:04:01,199 --> 01:04:02,920
but it's not just a question of the Duro canon,

1219
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,000
as we'll see, it's also a question of the authenticity

1220
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,519
of the Book of Revelation, which Athanasius has a key

1221
01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:14,840
role in determining as canonical by convincing Rome. So the

1222
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,360
East convinces the West of the canonicity of the Catholic

1223
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:24,039
Epistles and Revelation. According to Lee McDonald, you'll notice that

1224
01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:29,119
Barrick is included in most of these lists. And by

1225
01:04:29,119 --> 01:04:33,639
the way, I think it's Melito's list that James White

1226
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,320
tried to refer to in the trent Horn debate, and

1227
01:04:37,679 --> 01:04:42,760
Sam Schimun pointed out that James White was dishonest and

1228
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:47,400
wrong about Melito's list. It's also I'm pretty sure it's Malito.

1229
01:04:47,519 --> 01:04:50,639
It's either the Vincentian or Melito's Melito's kN I'm not sure,

1230
01:04:50,719 --> 01:04:53,119
but there's a video that Shimune has on that. By

1231
01:04:53,119 --> 01:04:59,280
the way, Epiphanius, you'll notice that it's pretty much as

1232
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:07,519
dressed bar as well, you'll notice that Ruth is in

1233
01:05:07,719 --> 01:05:13,639
Judges are sometimes also not included, So for example, some

1234
01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:19,239
of these lists will have Ruth, some of these lists won't,

1235
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:23,800
so you can see they're quite different in their inclusion

1236
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,519
and exclusion. Now, yes, I admit that these aren't the

1237
01:05:27,559 --> 01:05:30,840
most essential verses you see, but none of that really

1238
01:05:31,199 --> 01:05:33,480
are books. But none of that matters in regard to

1239
01:05:33,559 --> 01:05:38,119
the Protestant idea of the final, completed, fixed Word of

1240
01:05:38,159 --> 01:05:42,760
God as the only soul authority or final authority for

1241
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:46,760
the church. You see, if we come over here to

1242
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:52,280
other lists, here we have pseudo crystalstom pseudo Crystalism, including

1243
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:59,599
syric you have Tobit over here included, and some of

1244
01:05:59,599 --> 01:06:02,440
these are just ancient, varying ancient lists. Okay, we're gonna

1245
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:04,599
We're gonna do several of these. This is still Old Testament.

1246
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,519
If we come over here to Hillary, this is the

1247
01:06:08,559 --> 01:06:10,840
book of the Old Testament in the Western Church in

1248
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:15,360
the fourth and fifth century. So Hillary, one of his

1249
01:06:15,559 --> 01:06:20,800
uh textual lists, has also Tobit first and second Asdras

1250
01:06:21,119 --> 01:06:26,079
and the Epistle of Jeremiah. If you come over to Jerome.

1251
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:29,880
Jerme is the only church father that lists explicitly the

1252
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:36,760
Protestant canon and then the next list. There's some other

1253
01:06:39,599 --> 01:06:45,679
This is Augustine's list of the Old Testament canon. It

1254
01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:48,159
of course includes the Dual Cannon. And why did Augustine

1255
01:06:48,199 --> 01:06:52,159
have this list, Well, Augustine agreed with Pope Damas's list

1256
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:55,800
at the Council of Rome. Council of Rome is a

1257
01:06:56,199 --> 01:07:01,039
regional council around mid you know, mid three hundreds, late

1258
01:07:01,079 --> 01:07:04,639
three hundreds, and it's maybe around four hundred. I for

1259
01:07:04,679 --> 01:07:08,159
get the exact day, but it's very similar to kind

1260
01:07:08,199 --> 01:07:12,400
of what you see in the Apostolic Canons, except the

1261
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,199
Apostolic canons also have a differing list, as we'll see

1262
01:07:15,199 --> 01:07:18,679
in a second. Here's Augustine's list, and then next to

1263
01:07:18,719 --> 01:07:20,800
it is the Council of Rome that we're talking about,

1264
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,960
which is very important in the West. There's another Council

1265
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:27,119
of Hippo that includes the duoconomical books, and then the

1266
01:07:27,159 --> 01:07:34,239
Codex Vouticanus includes the deuconomical texts. Codex Sinidicus has wisdom

1267
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:40,400
cyric as well. Codex Alexandrinas also includes duoconomical texts. So

1268
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:51,400
let's look at New Testament books. Eusebius's list. It's unclear

1269
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:58,000
if the Eusebius included the Book of Revelation, and it

1270
01:07:58,119 --> 01:08:12,679
includes the Diction and the Epistle Barnabas. Clement's list includes

1271
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:16,520
texts that no one else included as canonical, such as

1272
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:20,920
Pistol Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Acts of Paul, revelation of

1273
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:25,199
Peter Cyril of Jerusalem, who I mentioned to that guy

1274
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:27,640
does not include the Book of Revelation. So this is

1275
01:08:28,159 --> 01:08:31,640
this does not afford Protestants any evidence or help. And

1276
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,399
you can see it right there. He has the correct

1277
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:39,680
New Testament, but he does not include the Book of Revelation.

1278
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,119
We have Athanasius's New Testament canon and it is the

1279
01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:54,520
full accurate New Testament canon that again he helps convince

1280
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,039
Rome to accept. When it comes to the Book of Revelation,

1281
01:08:57,319 --> 01:08:59,520
and I think the Book of Hebrews and the Catholic Epistles,

1282
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:06,800
there is the Mumpson list, and it looks.

1283
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:18,560
Speaker 10: Pretty acrobat doesn't have the Book of James Epiphanius. I

1284
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:23,880
don't know why Epiphanius would include Wisdom of Syric, Wisdom

1285
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:25,079
and Syric in the New Testament.

1286
01:09:25,119 --> 01:09:34,600
Speaker 1: That's pretty odd. But it looks like the Apostolic Canons,

1287
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,600
which is what we're looking at right here. They do

1288
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:40,720
not have the Book of Hebrews or the Book of Revelation.

1289
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:49,600
But the Apostolic Canons, which had a wider acceptance, especially

1290
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:53,039
in the East, did include the Deutero canonical text. And

1291
01:09:53,079 --> 01:09:56,600
that's why it even trump's an individual church father's opinion.

1292
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:01,680
But it's not even final because we don't include the

1293
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:06,960
Letters of Clement, and we do not include and it

1294
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,239
does not include the Book of Revelation. So do you

1295
01:10:10,279 --> 01:10:14,680
understand we're walking through the actual historical process of the

1296
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:20,039
lists and how much variation of differentiation there is. Now,

1297
01:10:20,039 --> 01:10:22,359
there's not a whole lot of differentiation or variation on

1298
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:29,479
the Gospels. Okay, it's almost always the Catholic epistles, Pauline

1299
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:35,960
epistles to a degree, And I mean if paul wrote Hebrews,

1300
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,760
I'm saying in the Book of Revelation, and the inclusion

1301
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:43,000
of books that no one ends up really accepting, like

1302
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:49,279
clement and so forth. The Apostolic canons include two Clementine

1303
01:10:49,359 --> 01:10:54,600
letters and the Apostolic Constitutions apparently, which is odd. Gregory

1304
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:58,800
of Nazian Zeus's list does not include Revelation or Hebrews.

1305
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:04,920
And the African canons include the Acts of the Martyrs,

1306
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,119
which I don't think anybody includes. So then you have

1307
01:11:08,359 --> 01:11:14,039
again Canon eighty five over here. Now, when Trollo meets,

1308
01:11:14,319 --> 01:11:19,319
Trollo says, we affirm the canons of the previous councils,

1309
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:26,479
and we affirm explicitly the Carthaginian list of the canon.

1310
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:37,039
The Carthaginian list, going from memory is pretty much the

1311
01:11:37,039 --> 01:11:43,520
Council of Rome lists. So essentially, by the time of

1312
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:47,079
Trollo and Trollo is affirmed by the seventh Ecumenical Council,

1313
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:53,119
you have an affirmation of what is pretty much the

1314
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,880
identical canon to the West in terms of the Council

1315
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:02,600
of Rome and Augusta and Pope Demasis. So there's not

1316
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:07,359
a whole lot of differentiation. I think some people, even

1317
01:12:07,399 --> 01:12:13,239
John Damascus for example, still includes in his canon list

1318
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,880
Clement the Letters of Clement. So the Orthodox view, because

1319
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:21,079
we don't believe in soul scriptura, it's not as rigid

1320
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:23,960
as this Protestant idea of you have to have this

1321
01:12:24,079 --> 01:12:28,479
like completely you know, walled off canon that is not

1322
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:30,640
in any way sort of flexible. And the Orthodox shirts

1323
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:34,279
there's more flexibility here because we're not proponents of soul scriptura,

1324
01:12:35,159 --> 01:12:38,319
so we don't believe that all these they're all heretics.

1325
01:12:38,359 --> 01:12:40,000
They didn't get the infallible word.

1326
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:40,399
Speaker 2: Of God right.

1327
01:12:41,359 --> 01:12:44,359
Speaker 1: Well, I've noticed Protestants take Revelation twenty two and they say,

1328
01:12:44,359 --> 01:12:45,960
if you take away from the Word of God or

1329
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:47,680
if you add to it, you're a part of the

1330
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,319
like of fire. So all the church fathers who were

1331
01:12:50,319 --> 01:12:51,600
debating and try to figure out the canon, I guess

1332
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:53,000
they're all on the lake of fire unless they got

1333
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,800
the canon right. It's just silly and it's totally divorced

1334
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,039
from history. Last thing, I'm saying on this is the

1335
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:02,600
one of the key things that surprised me. I don't

1336
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:05,840
remember if it was. I think it was in the FF.

1337
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:10,199
Bruce book, but I'm going for memory is the admission

1338
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:14,920
that liturgy played a really important role in the formation

1339
01:13:15,039 --> 01:13:18,840
of the Biblical canon. And a lot of Protestants have

1340
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:23,399
never heard that. When I was Protestant and debating and

1341
01:13:23,399 --> 01:13:25,479
studying these issues, I'd never heard this that was new

1342
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:30,279
what liturgy. Yes. In fact, the daily readings or electionaries

1343
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:34,479
in the ancient sees and churches had a very important

1344
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:39,159
role in figuring out the tradition of the Church in

1345
01:13:39,199 --> 01:13:43,239
regard to authenticity and authorship of many of these texts.

1346
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:48,840
For example, if an ancient apostolic see say Rome, say Jerusalem,

1347
01:13:49,119 --> 01:13:52,319
if they had cited a text or had been if

1348
01:13:52,319 --> 01:13:55,920
a text had been read, and it went back as

1349
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,840
far as anyone could remember and as far as other

1350
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:02,800
church fathers had given witness to say you're an as

1351
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:07,359
say Clement, say Ignatius, say they cited a text. Those

1352
01:14:07,359 --> 01:14:13,000
were good pieces of evidence that that's probably authentic. But

1353
01:14:13,079 --> 01:14:17,800
it's also the liturgical cycle and the liturgical readings that

1354
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:22,760
help the church determine from the third, fourth, fifth, sixth,

1355
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:28,199
seventh centuries, what the normative canon would be. And if

1356
01:14:28,239 --> 01:14:31,399
you understand that, and that's why I brought the mouth,

1357
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:33,920
the example of that guy and the authorship, it's not

1358
01:14:34,039 --> 01:14:37,159
just epistolic authorship. There's other things that go into it,

1359
01:14:37,239 --> 01:14:43,800
like liturgy that devastates the Protestant solid criture position snack,

1360
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:44,399
what's up, man,