1
00:00:07,879 --> 00:00:11,080
Speaker 1: And we're live, so welcome back everyone to another episode

2
00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,640
of Adventures in DevOps. This week, it's Nathan Goulding, current

3
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,239
SVP of Engineering at Vulture and with a previously long

4
00:00:19,359 --> 00:00:21,760
history of product and engineering architecture background.

5
00:00:21,879 --> 00:00:23,920
Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you, Warren. It's great to be here.

6
00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I have to say I'm pretty excited because

7
00:00:26,719 --> 00:00:29,079
one of the things I saw on Vulture is that,

8
00:00:29,519 --> 00:00:31,359
and I hope you can give us a little bit

9
00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,640
more of the rundown here is all about high performance

10
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,439
compute in the cloud. I mean, when I think about

11
00:00:37,759 --> 00:00:41,640
what your company is doing, it's infrastructure and on the

12
00:00:41,679 --> 00:00:44,600
back end, bar metal, et cetera. And that for me

13
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,039
is a whole area of technology that I just really

14
00:00:47,039 --> 00:00:49,079
have never gotten into. So maybe you can tell me

15
00:00:49,119 --> 00:00:51,479
a little bit more about, you know, high level what

16
00:00:51,759 --> 00:00:53,719
they've been doing and how you got into it. Yeah.

17
00:00:53,759 --> 00:00:56,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So, you know, I guess maybe starting with how

18
00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,280
I got into it. You know, I actually started in

19
00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:03,479
the infrastructure space back in two thousand and one, and

20
00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:07,120
I ran a very small game server hosting business called

21
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,640
East Coast Gaming Network, and very small. I was just

22
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,040
out of high school. And you know, the one of

23
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,439
the key features when you talk about high performance. There's

24
00:01:15,439 --> 00:01:18,120
many dimensions to high performance. Obviously, when you think about

25
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,079
performance through some lenses, you think about high clock speed,

26
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,799
you think about lots about you know, large amounts of memory,

27
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,359
you think about the latest and greatest GPUs. Another dimension

28
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,400
to that is latency, network latency, and you know, in

29
00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,719
the gaming industry specifically, low latency is incredibly important for

30
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,400
the gamers who are you know, if you like you

31
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,359
know Vulture we host the entire Call of Duty series

32
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,280
and have for several decades. You know, the latecy of

33
00:01:44,439 --> 00:01:48,599
the end player performance, yeah, is incredibly important. And you

34
00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,799
know the no lag no frag is you know that

35
00:01:51,799 --> 00:01:54,319
that's the you know, like the the thing that gets

36
00:01:54,319 --> 00:01:56,239
said in the industry is like lag is the ultimate

37
00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,760
killer of game performance. And so building out a So

38
00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,079
so that's how I got my start, was delivering game

39
00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,760
servers and and we're lagazing. You know, network latency is

40
00:02:06,799 --> 00:02:10,199
incredibly important, and so you know, at Vulture we have

41
00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:14,159
a strong background in you know, multiple decades of operating

42
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,599
cloud infrastructure with high performance you know, end users at

43
00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,400
the end of that. And so it started with network latency,

44
00:02:21,479 --> 00:02:23,800
you know, hosting game servers around globally for the entire

45
00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:25,960
like I said, the entire Call of Duty series, that's

46
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,280
really evolved into offering a wide range of high performance options.

47
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,319
And so, you know, the thing that we really lean

48
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,360
on is, uh, you know, we talk about price to

49
00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:38,879
performance or price and performance. One of the things that

50
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,280
we really lean on, you know, being an independent cloud

51
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,719
provider is delivering better price and better performance. So you

52
00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:47,400
know when when you compare with with some of the

53
00:02:47,439 --> 00:02:50,080
other you know, the other cloud providers that are out there,

54
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,680
and so being able to do that means that at

55
00:02:52,719 --> 00:02:58,599
every level of the stack, whether that's compute, storage, networking, latency,

56
00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:01,039
those are all aspects where we look, what are the

57
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,240
things that we can do to deliver a better performing

58
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,759
product uh than than some of the other providers that

59
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,319
are out there. Because we understand that, you know, we

60
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,360
are in a competitive landscape and we are an independent

61
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,960
cloud provider, we have to make sure that we actually

62
00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:15,520
go above and beyond in many different areas to be

63
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,240
able to demonstrate that value prop to to our customers

64
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,120
and that and that's what we are are focused on.

65
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,919
Speaker 1: I mean, that's sutually really interesting because I've never been

66
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,680
in software game development, and I never I never wanted

67
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,919
to be, But there are lots of questions there that,

68
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,840
like you mentioned, you know, Call of Duty, that that

69
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,120
is like premiere first person shooter game out there where

70
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:41,400
absolutely latency is a huge aspect to having it work effectively.

71
00:03:41,719 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, no, I know it really is. And that's

72
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,680
something where you know, those are can sometimes be You're

73
00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:51,159
typically your you know, your your loudest and most unforgiving

74
00:03:51,199 --> 00:03:54,199
customers are the ones who are in the middle of

75
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,599
a game and expect, you know, one hundred percent of

76
00:03:56,599 --> 00:03:58,800
time with you know, no latency at all, and so

77
00:03:59,719 --> 00:04:02,960
you know that really is the proving ground of being

78
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,039
able to deliver cloud infrastructure in a really robust and

79
00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,120
reliable way. That you know is these are not academic

80
00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:13,319
or theoretical problems that we are solving. These are very practical,

81
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,759
pragmatic problems for customers who are very demanding.

82
00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:20,399
Speaker 1: I always thought the Triple A Studios just ran a

83
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,240
terrible data center in their own warehouse and made lots

84
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,399
of mistakes. So I guess it's good to know that

85
00:04:25,439 --> 00:04:27,800
there are actually providers out there that are dedicated to

86
00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,199
solving some of the ridiculous problems of like server management

87
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,120
and having dedicated servers for individual groups of gamers on

88
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:37,759
at scale.

89
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure, and that's really you know, that's

90
00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:42,920
one aspect of what we do, you know, as a

91
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,839
infrastructure provider. We we are a full fledged cloud platform

92
00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,079
and so you know, when you think of the a vulture,

93
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,439
it's it's the you know, like modern hyperscaler is what

94
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,319
we like to refer to us as you know, we

95
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,000
have we do have bear metal, which is like the

96
00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:02,439
lowest level of kind of like cloud infrastructure that you

97
00:05:02,439 --> 00:05:05,040
can get. There's no hypervisor, You're just getting access to

98
00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,279
the raw metal and folks who who value that level

99
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,959
of performance and single tendency. Sometimes there are compliance requirements

100
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,439
that come along with that. You know that that's an

101
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,439
area where we can deliver that in a cloud delivery model.

102
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,600
And so, you know, with the advent of a lot

103
00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:26,360
of the you know, and this is not a new evolution,

104
00:05:26,439 --> 00:05:28,240
this is over the last few years of these much

105
00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,160
higher level services. You know that that people kind of

106
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,199
forget that, especially when serverless as a thing became much

107
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,759
more popular. Gosh was that eight or nine years ago?

108
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,040
Serverletsts became a thing, you know, you kind of as

109
00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:45,839
a cloud infrastructure providing you chuckle a little bit, because

110
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,000
it still runs on a server. There's still a server

111
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,240
there that runs that. It's just that there's so many

112
00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,040
layers of astraction above that that you kind of forget

113
00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:55,439
about that or you don't have to think about that.

114
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,480
And so that's one of the unique challenges that we face,

115
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,279
especially as you know, I lead the engineering team. You know,

116
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,439
we're hiring engineers to build the cloud, and so one

117
00:06:04,439 --> 00:06:06,959
of the challenges that we face is, you know, they're

118
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,720
born in the cloud developers who've never been in the

119
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,439
data center before. They've never accessed the lower levels of

120
00:06:11,439 --> 00:06:14,199
infrastructure before, and so you know, how do you find somebody.

121
00:06:14,199 --> 00:06:15,839
It's like a chicken into the egg problem. You know,

122
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,199
if people assume that there is the cloud that will

123
00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,519
deploy their application, and the problem set that we're trying

124
00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:23,279
to tackle is how do you actually build the cloud?

125
00:06:23,399 --> 00:06:25,639
And that's that's something that is unique and something that

126
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,360
you don't find in a lot of areas.

127
00:06:27,519 --> 00:06:30,079
Speaker 1: I mean, it used to be the challenge of every

128
00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:36,920
company to requisition purchase capital expenditures for warehouse location and

129
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,480
build up data centers. There are several blades and hire

130
00:06:39,519 --> 00:06:43,160
ops folk to run and over time, we find companies

131
00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:46,319
specializing in every part of the stack, and all of

132
00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:51,399
those experts have migrated to the cloud providers, hyperscalers and

133
00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,800
local country based cloud options for managing that. So if

134
00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,839
you you know, if you're interested in that, those jobs

135
00:06:59,879 --> 00:07:02,240
to exists, they're just working for our companies like yours.

136
00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,639
Speaker 2: Exactly No, that's exactly right. And and you know, being

137
00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:09,680
able to you know, be able to find those you know, individuals.

138
00:07:09,839 --> 00:07:12,360
But at the same time, because what we are delivering

139
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,480
is a service that allows other developers and platform engineering

140
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,720
teams to consume that in a really really seamless way.

141
00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:22,079
Is you know, like that is the bridge. It's the

142
00:07:22,079 --> 00:07:26,759
bridge between the underlying physical infrastructure and providing tools that

143
00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,120
you know, DevOps and platform engineering teams can consume in

144
00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:32,800
very native ways. And and so that's it's a really

145
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,519
interesting challenge to be able to do that and really

146
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,920
you know, again abstract away the complexity and the difficulty

147
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,560
and deliver on the promise of the cloud, which is

148
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,120
you know, infinite amounts of you know, infrastructure very cheaply

149
00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:48,480
and very quickly. Immediately, you know, you need to be

150
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,399
able to scale infinitely and you need to do it

151
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,720
right now. So it's a it's no small, no small challenge.

152
00:07:54,759 --> 00:07:56,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I like that you brought up server lists

153
00:07:56,399 --> 00:07:58,519
as an interesting comparison here. Do you find that your

154
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,879
customers also have a challenge of dealing with burst based loads,

155
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,439
which usually lend themselves to servilest solutions, or is it

156
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,040
that a lot of them understand a lot of what

157
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,480
their expectations are for volume of requests over time.

158
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really really interesting question, and I think that,

159
00:08:17,399 --> 00:08:20,000
you know, I've seen customers fall into two kind of

160
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,920
like primary categories with respect to how they think about

161
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,399
cloud infrastructure. And you know, on the one end, you

162
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,319
have folks who understand and maybe have some sort of

163
00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:35,559
background in delivering infrastructure in some level, maybe they were

164
00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,360
a platform engineer, or they were an sre or they

165
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,279
were somebody as part of the DevOps team, and they

166
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,320
understand like the pieces that compose that, and so when

167
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,200
they think about scaling, they think about many of the

168
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,039
challenges that go along with scaling, is you know, everything

169
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,919
can you know, you can stand it up very quickly once,

170
00:08:54,039 --> 00:08:57,039
but when you actually try to scale it, then you

171
00:08:57,159 --> 00:08:59,840
come into things like again latency and maybe in a

172
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,360
different context here, which is how long is it going

173
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,080
to take for that function to execute? Is that going

174
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,200
to where? Where is that function going to be running?

175
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,919
Is it going to be in market, is it going

176
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,399
to be in a central location? Where are the end users?

177
00:09:11,399 --> 00:09:14,879
And so the questions that get asked are typically different.

178
00:09:15,639 --> 00:09:19,039
And then there's a class of user who really doesn't

179
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,679
think about that and also doesn't want to think about that,

180
00:09:21,759 --> 00:09:24,480
And it's just unapologetic about not thinking about that. It

181
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,720
says that is not my problem. My problem is delivering

182
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,360
the application. My problem is servicing my end user everything

183
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,519
with respects to how it gets deployed, where it gets deployed,

184
00:09:32,519 --> 00:09:35,159
how much of it gets deployed is your problem, you know,

185
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,320
either cloud infrastructure provider or some you know SAZ or

186
00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:41,519
paths a service that runs on top of that and so,

187
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,759
and it is very very unapologetic about that and just

188
00:09:43,759 --> 00:09:45,639
says this is, you know, my job is not to

189
00:09:45,639 --> 00:09:48,039
think about the scale and concerns that that someone else's.

190
00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:51,200
Speaker 1: Do you get a lot of the customers fixated on

191
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,480
like regional based services or is there like a fair

192
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,879
set that's like, well, some want localization where their potential

193
00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,440
users are with this, like the gaming ones where you're

194
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,679
connecting to maybe other players in a local area to

195
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,519
reduce cross player pings and increase fps. Are there global

196
00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,320
customers as well, They're like they don't want to think

197
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,879
about where their where their users are, and they still

198
00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:15,639
have to connect and you're solving for problems like that

199
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:16,960
in that space as well.

200
00:10:17,159 --> 00:10:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that, you know, the Yeah, there's

201
00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:22,639
typically you know kind of like falls into two categories.

202
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,039
There is those that are location sensitive that say it

203
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,039
needs to be here. That could be for many different reasons.

204
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,159
It could be because they're only serving customers in the

205
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,600
specific market and that's going to be the best performance

206
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,600
for them, or there's other concerns for regulatory so for

207
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,159
data governance, it has to be in the EU, or

208
00:10:41,279 --> 00:10:45,000
has to be in India or some other location where

209
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,799
there's specific regulatory concerns that it needs to be in market.

210
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,960
On the flip side, you have a global software or

211
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,679
application that needs to serve end users in a specific

212
00:10:58,759 --> 00:11:03,000
area that where you're optimizing for the lowest possible latency

213
00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:06,159
in that market. And so in that case, you you know,

214
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,519
the the entity might be in wherever they happen to

215
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,279
be in the world, but they need to make sure

216
00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:14,320
that they're deploying into as many markets as they are.

217
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:15,840
And it's not just gaming, you know, we get a

218
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,879
ton of other customers that are in the security space,

219
00:11:18,399 --> 00:11:22,200
that are in the network telemetry space, where they'll take one, two,

220
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,519
maybe a handful of nodes in every single data center

221
00:11:25,519 --> 00:11:27,799
that we have. We have thirty two regions, thirty two

222
00:11:27,879 --> 00:11:31,759
data individual data centers around the world, three two individual regions.

223
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,399
They'll take one or a handful of nodes in every

224
00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:37,200
single one of those locations because they're doing let's say,

225
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,039
you know, eyeball network monitoring. So they'll send out probes

226
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,519
on the network, and they'll do it with us, and

227
00:11:42,519 --> 00:11:44,279
they'll do it with a bunch of other cloud providers.

228
00:11:44,279 --> 00:11:48,639
They might have hundreds or thousands of individual systems running

229
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,240
in terms of their global platform. As a let's say

230
00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,039
you know, a network you know, latency, performance, uptime, health

231
00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,320
monitoring service. They might deploy you know, thousands of probes

232
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,840
around the globe, across you know, across our entire footprint,

233
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,679
but across many other cloud providers foot prints specifically for

234
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,960
the end purpose of monitoring the network. And so so

235
00:12:10,159 --> 00:12:12,879
in that situation, they're you know, they're they're optimizing for

236
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,600
something that's very specific for the application that's unique to them.

237
00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,960
And and again like similarly for you know, if they're

238
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,080
running some you know IoT edge network for you know,

239
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,039
for an automotive company that has you know, the connected cars,

240
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,879
that's you know, again like common use case where they

241
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,919
might have something that's deployed into specific markets to reach

242
00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:37,799
the cars that are in that specific market with the

243
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,519
lowest possible latency for for what that is. And it's

244
00:12:40,519 --> 00:12:43,480
not self driving, Like you know, the self driving stuff

245
00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:45,480
is never going to be you know, off the device

246
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,879
that's going to be on the vehicle. That would be catastrophic.

247
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,360
But but for other pieces of connected car where you

248
00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:55,000
do have it off device, then then you're going to

249
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,080
want to have that in the region that the cars

250
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:57,720
are operating in.

251
00:12:57,799 --> 00:13:00,320
Speaker 1: Its jumping into the controversial topics already, but before I

252
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,720
get into that one, I'm really interested to know how

253
00:13:02,759 --> 00:13:05,000
you managed to figure out where to place your your

254
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,759
edge location. So do you have different types of data

255
00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:11,039
centers or are all of them pretty much equivalent as

256
00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:13,879
far as capabilities that they offer. I can imagine the

257
00:13:13,919 --> 00:13:19,480
size and maybe the individual resources may be different depending

258
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,159
on actual need and where the customers are, but are

259
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,120
they fundamentally treated the same. Like if we look at

260
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,159
AWS or GCP, they don't offer every service in every region,

261
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,279
and they also don't offer a data center in every country.

262
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,799
So you may be in a place where you have

263
00:13:34,919 --> 00:13:39,600
users who want to utilize your well culture to serve

264
00:13:39,639 --> 00:13:43,919
their customers and there may not be any localized resources there.

265
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,480
How do you figure out where to put the edge

266
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:46,919
nodes and what do those actually look like?

267
00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:49,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's that's a really fantastic question because

268
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,440
edge means different things to different people. And you know,

269
00:13:54,039 --> 00:13:56,840
when edge computing first was a thing, you know, a

270
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,879
few years ago or several years ago, both thought that

271
00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:02,840
edge computing was, you know, there's going to be a

272
00:14:02,879 --> 00:14:05,720
data center at the bottom of every cell tower, and

273
00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:07,279
that was you know, kind of a thing for for

274
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,679
a minute and kind of like pushing the boundaries of

275
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,279
edge because you know, if you look at the evolution

276
00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:16,039
of data center footprint over time, it was all the

277
00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:20,000
major metros were the hubs for data centers. And the

278
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,799
reason for that was just as there was density, you

279
00:14:21,879 --> 00:14:24,000
had all the major financial markets, you had all the

280
00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:26,519
major tech technology companies, they were all in these regions

281
00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:28,600
and people wanted to have you know, data centers that

282
00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:31,200
were in those major regions. So you know New York,

283
00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:35,320
you know the Bay Area, Ashburn, you know Dallas, there's

284
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,039
you know some major Chicago, there's major metros where there's

285
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,879
you know, just if you look at the US, the

286
00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:42,399
density of those data centers there, and then started to

287
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,799
branch out into regional operators to go into other places

288
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,960
that were still major metropolitan areas but not you know,

289
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,000
kind of like you know Tier one cities in the US,

290
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,240
and then it kind of like skipped over like rapid

291
00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:58,000
expansion to and now we're gonna put one at the

292
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,320
end of the edge, you know, at the bottom every

293
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,840
cell tower, and that you know, like if you look

294
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,399
at the cost of capital to deploy at the bottom

295
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,759
of every cell tower as an example, it just doesn't

296
00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:10,080
make sense if you have you know, I'm looking, you know,

297
00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:13,559
streaming a YouTube video in the car, and you know,

298
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,559
I'm passing one cell tower, you know, and I'm only

299
00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:19,919
connected to that tower for you know, for for two

300
00:15:19,919 --> 00:15:22,360
to three minutes as I'm driving down the highway. The

301
00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:24,600
amount of data that I'm processing over that network is

302
00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:27,039
just never going to recoup the cost of putting building

303
00:15:27,039 --> 00:15:29,639
the data center and installing servers there and and having

304
00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:31,600
you know, over the network delivery of things like self

305
00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:34,919
driving cars is you know, just a safety disaster. And

306
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,919
so you know, you're looking at how much data actually

307
00:15:37,919 --> 00:15:40,919
needs to get processed at the far edge and so,

308
00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:43,919
and it's just it's just not that much, you know,

309
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,159
so so but then then you you like enter GPU,

310
00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:50,320
it's like, okay, wait a minute. So now there's a

311
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,159
bunch of edge data centers which aren't in the cell

312
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,240
tower you know, aren't at the base of cell towers,

313
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,559
but they are edge data centers insofar as they might

314
00:15:57,559 --> 00:15:59,159
be in the middle of a wind farm in South

315
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,440
Dakota and it's like, well, what are they doing there?

316
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,440
They might be like mining crypto as an example, where

317
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,039
there's access to very cheap power, but you're going to

318
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,720
have concerns in terms of redundancy, so like are they

319
00:16:09,799 --> 00:16:13,519
you know, like optimizing for cost is different than optimizing

320
00:16:13,519 --> 00:16:15,519
for redundancy and resiliency, which is what you're going to

321
00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:18,080
gatch if you're you know, operting a data center that's

322
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,600
delivering you know, services to the financial services industry. It's

323
00:16:20,639 --> 00:16:22,879
just like a different tier of service. And so you

324
00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:24,720
have a bunch of data centers that pop up in

325
00:16:24,799 --> 00:16:26,519
like the far it's a far edge, it's a different

326
00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:29,360
far edge, but also out out there as well. We

327
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,600
don't have any of those. We are focused on major

328
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,240
major markets that that's where our We do have thirty two,

329
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,320
but they're in all the major markets that are around

330
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,360
the world. And so the things that we look at

331
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,960
are the common things like population density, we look at

332
00:16:42,519 --> 00:16:44,840
obviously customer demand. If somebody needs us to show up

333
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,240
in a specific location for a specific reason, we'll do that.

334
00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:50,440
And so it's you know, we're really focused on being

335
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:55,039
able to deliver services to places where there are you

336
00:16:55,039 --> 00:16:58,360
know that there's a there's a need there, and so

337
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,480
our data centers are not again like we didn't grow

338
00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:04,519
up in you know, we didn't grow up having data

339
00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:06,480
centers in the middle of nowhere that we're then trying

340
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,279
to like you know, retrofit with data you know, with

341
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,279
backup generators and with better network performance because they suddenly

342
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,559
have a different you know, value add in terms of

343
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:17,920
the industry that they're going after. These are you know

344
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,359
again like they're they're tier three plus data centers, which

345
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,279
is you know, like one of the highs. There's four

346
00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:26,160
tiers and you know Tier three plus is like you know,

347
00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:29,880
one of the best and so so. So yes, these

348
00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:33,079
are like high you know, like I can't remember they

349
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,599
I've lost count of the number of nines that it offers.

350
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,799
But these are again like they're they're major at all,

351
00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:43,759
the major like name brand you know, data center providers

352
00:17:43,799 --> 00:17:45,759
or the or the folks that we work with, and

353
00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:48,720
they're and that's you know, because our class of customers,

354
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,039
just their their enterprise customers, they expect a certain thing

355
00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:55,759
in terms of the uptime of these of these services

356
00:17:55,759 --> 00:17:57,160
and the network they're going to get there.

357
00:17:57,279 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 1: So are you seeing that your customers and potentually this

358
00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:03,880
outer market segment of customers that you're not necessarily geared

359
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,079
to right now are leaning towards more hybrid model over

360
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,640
time or and they bring their own local data center

361
00:18:11,759 --> 00:18:14,640
or already built server rack and they're connecting that up

362
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,480
to your cloud, or are you offering something to be

363
00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:19,680
able to build that connection so that those customers who

364
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,839
may not have data center expertise like I can think

365
00:18:21,839 --> 00:18:25,680
and in AWS, there's like some sort of deployable outposts

366
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,200
for instance, for running tech on Is there some corollary

367
00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:31,440
that you've got or see customers actually interested in.

368
00:18:31,599 --> 00:18:35,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's another really really great question. You know,

369
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,960
the database outpost, I think has you know, seen somewhat

370
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,519
limited optick, you know, because if you have, if you

371
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,079
have an on prem data center. I think that when

372
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,279
cloud went through the first wave of explosive growth, people

373
00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:54,599
assumed that everything was going to go to cloud and

374
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,640
that on prem was going to go to zero. And

375
00:18:58,079 --> 00:19:00,640
the reality is is that when you're deploying, you know,

376
00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:03,640
when you're flipping capex to op x, so instead of

377
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,000
buying servers, you're paying you know op x. You know

378
00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:11,920
your depreciation schedule for your your CAPEX. You know, you like,

379
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,319
from a financial perspective, you recognize that if you're going

380
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,599
to be in the cloud, and at this point everybody

381
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,599
understands that they're going to need infrastructure in some fashion.

382
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:22,839
That if you're going to be in the business of

383
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,559
having infrastructure boud infrastructure in some form either delivered on

384
00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:29,599
prem through you're on you know, your your platform team

385
00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:31,960
combined with your on site team, or if you're just

386
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,000
consuming it through the cloud, that you're going to be

387
00:19:35,079 --> 00:19:37,279
going to need it over a long period of time,

388
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,160
and so those charts cross out of about the three

389
00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,000
year mark for most people in terms of the cost

390
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,039
of the TCO. And so if somebody's saying, hey, we're

391
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:49,839
going to need this infrastructure, we're planning to be in

392
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,680
business for the next you know, two to three or

393
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,759
four decades, then they're going to say it's going to

394
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:58,519
be way more cost effective for us to own this gear.

395
00:19:59,079 --> 00:20:03,240
Understanding that that, you know, the lines crossed at about

396
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,480
you know, three years or so, but the useful the

397
00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:09,599
actual useful life of those systems is probably somewhere between

398
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,000
I don't know, six, seven, eight years probably, And so

399
00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:16,000
if you have the you know, so a CFO is

400
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,799
going to look at that and say, hey, like we

401
00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:20,559
should be doing that, you know, putting servers and data

402
00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:22,640
centers because it's going to be more cost effective for

403
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,559
that asset. There's other challenges that come along with that

404
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,000
because now you have to have a team. You have

405
00:20:27,079 --> 00:20:29,279
to either have the team already or you need to

406
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,480
hire the team, and you need to do a lot

407
00:20:31,519 --> 00:20:33,640
of things that people don't generally do as part of

408
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,279
their business. I mean, when you know, when was the

409
00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:37,920
last time that you were inside of a data center.

410
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,799
Speaker 1: Ever, I was lucky early on in my career and

411
00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:44,160
I managed to get in one because the company I

412
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:49,960
worked for what offered global manufacturing services, and so they

413
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,880
would put a data center within each of the manufacturing plans.

414
00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:56,319
And I there's a lot of stories that go on there,

415
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,200
ones like you probably don't expect to have to deal

416
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,599
with a flood or fire or having both at the

417
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,319
same time very close to where your data center is,

418
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,960
and that being like a critical problem. So just reliability

419
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,759
of that thing is another challenge there, Like I actually

420
00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:13,440
feel like hiring you know, that's obviously one of the issues.

421
00:21:13,599 --> 00:21:15,200
But there's just like so many in the list goes

422
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,279
on and on, for instance, correct projections, right, like how

423
00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:20,799
many of us were like, oh, yeah, you know, uh

424
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,400
six years ago, you know, what's gonna be so different

425
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,720
around the world, like sands, whether or not any sort

426
00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,079
of LM or AI. Yeah, I brought it up and

427
00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:34,480
we're only out Like the twenty minute mark is is good,

428
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,640
accurate or useful? I do feel like it's impacting a

429
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,640
lot of companies, and that's something that I can guarantee you.

430
00:21:40,839 --> 00:21:45,599
Very few financial experts put into any of their market

431
00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:48,240
predictions or for their companies. So yeah, I mean, if

432
00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:50,839
you have a perfect understanding of what of how much

433
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,880
money you're going to spend and how much like what

434
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,839
your accounts receivable is going to be going forward, your

435
00:21:55,839 --> 00:21:59,000
revenue and where you can capitalize on that, yeah, go

436
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,039
for it, you know, make the those purchases. But I

437
00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:03,319
guarantee you no one is that good. And if you

438
00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:05,160
are that good, you know, just quit your job and

439
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,000
go put some money in the stock market right now,

440
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,359
you know. And I say that, I'm like, I'm sure

441
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,839
the correct buy is like shortening the market by you know,

442
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,839
any amount like that's probably how a bunch of people

443
00:22:14,839 --> 00:22:17,599
are gonna become rich in the next couple of years.

444
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I've never had too much luck

445
00:22:19,599 --> 00:22:21,160
for that. I feel like the moment that I decide

446
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,279
that I'm gonna, you know, make make a better it

447
00:22:24,279 --> 00:22:25,839
just feels like gambling to me. I'm gonna be like, oh,

448
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,200
I'm gonna short sell, and then that will be the

449
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,960
moment that it's the bottom of the bottom of the market.

450
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,480
I'm gonna stick with delivery infrastructure as my no.

451
00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: I think I think that's incredibly I think that's incredibly

452
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:38,440
wise and right thing to do. Yeah, for sure, Like

453
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,799
there are so many analysts out there that statistically they're

454
00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:43,920
just gonna like they only do this. Like my brother

455
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,160
was telling me when he was in working for a

456
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,960
mutual fund that literally there's like one person at that

457
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,359
company and all they do is focus on like five

458
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,400
companies specifically. That's it. That's all they know. So there's

459
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,960
no way that you're gonna have more information or be

460
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,640
more of an expert to be able to make better

461
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,000
decisions in them. You're pretty much betting against everyone else

462
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,480
who has also no idea. So you know, maybe you're

463
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,599
more lucky than that. You know, if luck is on

464
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,240
your side, definitely go for it. But for immateur investors,

465
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,039
definitely any sort of market index fund. If you're feeling risky,

466
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,640
you know, and you want to you want to be

467
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,480
like you know what, I want to either have nothing

468
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,440
or everything, then then you know, you take the take

469
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:20,160
the gamble, like you.

470
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: Said, exactly exactly. Yeah, I'll never never put money, you know,

471
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,039
make my own bets there because it truly feels like

472
00:23:28,039 --> 00:23:30,000
a bet. It feels like you know, and the way

473
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,359
that I approach that is, you know, I only I

474
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,200
only would bet the money that I'm willing to lose,

475
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:38,000
which is very little. It would prefer to do things

476
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,319
that I can control and uh and and have some

477
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,599
knowledge over. So but yeah, you know, you know, getting

478
00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:48,119
back to your original question about about you know, like

479
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,720
the hybrid models and how customers are viewing that, I

480
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,319
think that, yeah, you know, that's an area where you know,

481
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,759
I think that there's there's certainly folks who have you know,

482
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,160
again like putting them into kind of two category, is

483
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,640
there are folks who are clouds only and there are

484
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,039
those that are hybrid, and we see both of those

485
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,240
and I think that having a strategy that accounts for

486
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,519
both of those is is really important. And so I

487
00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:13,359
think that it would be a mistake to think that

488
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,640
everything is ultimately going to end up in the cloud,

489
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,640
because that has not been born out, and I don't

490
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,920
think that will continue to prove out. But cloud is

491
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,720
an important strategy and an important thing for a lot

492
00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:29,480
of even those customers who are traditionally on prem and

493
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:31,960
I've worked at well both of those places that are

494
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,359
you know, that have a hybrid strategy because that's what

495
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,480
they need. They need cloud for the birstability, they needed

496
00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:40,279
for instant access to because they can't make a prediction

497
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,839
of their capacity. They need to have a hybrid strategy,

498
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,839
but they just simply either can't or don't want to

499
00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:50,160
be fully in the cloud, and so having a strategy,

500
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,960
a technical strategy that they can account for that is

501
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,640
I think, is I think really important.

502
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm totally with you. My advice has always

503
00:24:56,519 --> 00:24:58,279
been make the mistake in going to the cloud, and

504
00:24:58,319 --> 00:25:00,160
then ten years later when you're like, oh, well, you

505
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,000
know it would have been better if we didn't, then

506
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:04,920
you can start being like exactly figuring out how you

507
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,160
want to move some of your stuff back on prem

508
00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:09,799
unless you have a lot of old hardware sitting around

509
00:25:09,839 --> 00:25:11,799
that you're just like, oh, I want to throw a

510
00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:14,119
bunch of extra money at maintenance. Which is the thing

511
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,920
that I thought about when you said having the data

512
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,920
centers at the bottom of every cell tower. It's not

513
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,640
even like having to spend the money to go and

514
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,319
build them there, or the complexity of building an application

515
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,880
that handles like lossy packets, like not meeting anywhere because

516
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,599
you're in between switching. I mean, you think about how

517
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,440
reliable GPS seller networks are, Like it's very difficult to

518
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,680
get your position in some places in the world just

519
00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:39,920
due to jamming and whatnot. And now you have to

520
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,000
deal with not like unreliable technology and then it's going

521
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:45,240
to break down, right just having one of those at

522
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,799
every single cell tower, that's a lot of extra maintenance

523
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,559
that you're going into it more so than like how

524
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:52,400
do you even send a person there, you know, in

525
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,799
a truck with the right equipment to go and investigate

526
00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:56,519
and then hip thing Like a lot of those are

527
00:25:56,559 --> 00:25:58,200
in places that are very difficult to reach. You know,

528
00:25:58,279 --> 00:26:00,880
there's pretty much just one cable going to the tower

529
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,240
and no one ever goes to that tower ever.

530
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:08,039
Speaker 2: Again exactly that that's very true. And uh and again

531
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:10,640
like you also, you know these are running on you know,

532
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,880
like if there's you know, if you lose utility power,

533
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,200
you know, you're operating on a generator and you know,

534
00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:18,000
I I do have a UPS power bank you know

535
00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:20,240
for my home internet to ensure that it's up all

536
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,920
the time, but it lasts about eight minutes. And you know,

537
00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:25,599
and and for the cell tower, you know, with the

538
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,480
very low power, you know, the the things that are

539
00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:31,160
running there typically you know, their arm chips for low

540
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,400
power consumption, the switching like all of that is you know,

541
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,079
it's all low power devices, even the you know, the signal,

542
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,599
I mean they have to broadcast the signal. But you've

543
00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:43,720
got maybe you know, somewhere between eight and twenty four

544
00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:47,640
hours of redundancy of the current cellular infrastructure that's there.

545
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:50,960
Then you start tacking on you know, kilo watts of

546
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,480
of server compute and and you know, you have much

547
00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:56,480
different challenges if if you lose utility power or if

548
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,880
something if something goes wrong. So it's it's a yeah, no,

549
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,359
that that was you know when that happened, it was

550
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,640
you know, the assumption was and I think the other

551
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,559
aspect of that, going again, going back to the high performance,

552
00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:07,599
low latency, like the other aspect of that is that

553
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,519
you know, it's like, what is the use case that

554
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:12,640
requires that low level of latency because we operate in

555
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,920
thirty two DA centers around the world. It's thirty two

556
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,480
and there's you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands

557
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:19,319
of cell towers. Like what's the difference, Like what what

558
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:21,400
what what do you actually need that for? Because we

559
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,839
already operate, you know, our our platform, you know, thirty

560
00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:26,920
two we operate and we are able to reach. I

561
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,319
think it's you know, ninety plus percent of the world's

562
00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:33,200
population under forty milliseconds. It's like in like, so like,

563
00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:36,480
what's the use case that necessitates that you dropped from

564
00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:39,799
forty milliseconds down to you know two or one? There

565
00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:42,119
are those like there's again like financial services you have

566
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,319
like you know, you're you're not dealing in milliseconds. Yeah,

567
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,119
you're you're dealing in a unit much smaller than that.

568
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,880
But that's in a very specific location that the global

569
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,200
application use case of insanely low latency has yet to

570
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,319
be born out. And I think for a minute there

571
00:27:57,319 --> 00:27:58,880
it was like well, self driving cars, of course, but

572
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:02,200
you know, pushing that over the network, over the you know,

573
00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:05,119
the EM spectrum with jamming and with everything else that's

574
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,839
going on again is just you know, a safety disaster.

575
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,359
And so that that was like the use case that

576
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,079
everybody trotted out when that was you know, when when

577
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:15,640
that was a hot topic, but that that has not

578
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,839
really again been worn out in reality, and and that

579
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,279
the use case where you need high amounts of compute

580
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,599
at that you know, minuscule latency to necessitate a deployment

581
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,880
like that. Again, as we've yet seen that.

582
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm with you there. I mean, we'll

583
00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:35,519
see for real time decision making, having that on vehicle

584
00:28:35,759 --> 00:28:39,160
for autonomous vehicles would make way more sense. I mean,

585
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,279
we already see this needing to be the case for

586
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:48,480
any sort of on personed missions outside the atmosphere or

587
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:51,839
a planet. So we're already thinking about this as a

588
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,880
as a species of how to build technology like this

589
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,359
and what is actually necessary. But I have seen an

590
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,839
uptick in companies that are trying to provide remote services.

591
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:04,440
Rather than having you know, full autonomous vehicle, you just

592
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,960
have the driver is somewhere else, like it's sitting at

593
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,680
their desk, driving your vehicle to the actual location. And

594
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,759
so with that, I can see a little bit more

595
00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:16,039
of a use there. I could see maybe it's backed

596
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:19,200
up by redundant systems within the vehicle, so the person

597
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:20,640
who's in the car, like you, still don't have to

598
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,759
drive the vehicle. But I do see these as long

599
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:27,960
as there's some differentiation in the markets around the world

600
00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:32,839
being financially viable to outsource the driving to someone else

601
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:33,400
somewhere else.

602
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that that It's it's a

603
00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:38,640
super interesting one to talk about because I think that

604
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,440
there are you know, again, whether it's somebody driving your

605
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,000
car for you, or you know missions you know in

606
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,359
other parts of the world that you have an operator

607
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,759
sitting somewhere you know, those are those are valid use cases.

608
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,759
But the realities is that the electromagnetic spectrum is open

609
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:02,559
to anyone. And so and I don't mean open in

610
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:04,400
so far as yes, you know, you have to encrypt it,

611
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,200
you have to worry about like, but anybody can you know,

612
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,920
has access to both you know, broadcast or receive those signals.

613
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,559
That's open. Obviously it's regulated. You'd be in a lot

614
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:17,039
of trouble if you broadcast over part of the spectrum

615
00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:20,200
that you were not authorized to broadcast over, but it

616
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,920
would be extraordinarily disruptive if somebody did knowingly. So it's

617
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,400
it's it's an attack factor because it is an open spectrum.

618
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,720
I mean, anybody can you know, by commodity parts and

619
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,400
assemble an electromagnetic you know, something that either you know

620
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,119
sends or receives over the electromatic spectrum in the frequencies

621
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,200
that these would operate in. And so there has to

622
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,640
be the ability for either that like if you take,

623
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,880
like somebody driving your car remotely like that sounds great,

624
00:30:43,119 --> 00:30:45,759
But if that signal gets jammed or if that signal

625
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:48,480
gets dropped, there needs to be something on the device,

626
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:50,119
either in the form of somebody has to be sitting

627
00:30:50,119 --> 00:30:51,880
behind the wheel, or the car needs to stop itself

628
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,759
and then coordinate it between the other cars to to

629
00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:58,119
stop themselves without causing an accident. But but that that

630
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,599
the medium in particular, if it's why or if it's

631
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,319
fixed in place, there's things that you know, there's a

632
00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:06,160
there's a relative amount of a surety around what's happening

633
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,200
to be able to stop it because it's fixed or

634
00:31:08,599 --> 00:31:11,000
it's wired, and so the redundancy of that is so

635
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:14,079
much better. But we all see, you know, the you know,

636
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:18,480
the electromagnetic spectrum is is already extraordinarily crowded and is

637
00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:21,559
only getting more congested, and it is also open to

638
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,720
interference and jamming in ways that a wired network is.

639
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:27,559
You know, it doesn't suffer for those things. So it

640
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,880
just it presents unique challenges to to be able to solve,

641
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,319
to be able to do that in a way that

642
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:36,480
you know is safe and and you know and accounts

643
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,240
for the reality of the medium by which this information

644
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,000
gets transferred.

645
00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:43,759
Speaker 1: So if you're making an autonomous car company and you

646
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,160
need to send signals between each of the vehicles and

647
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,599
some you know primary data center, vulture is probably the answer,

648
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:50,519
is what I'm hearing.

649
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: I yes, I guess that's you know, getting back the vulture. Yes, no,

650
00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:56,920
that would be that would be the way to do it.

651
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,559
As if you need a locate a data center. I

652
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:01,440
mean this is this is also true, like this is

653
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,119
actually what we do with connected cars, which I will

654
00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:05,759
also say, like the connected car, you know, use case

655
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,079
is is totally valid. It's not for maybe necessarily like

656
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,119
driving the car, but you know, I mean on my

657
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,039
device itself right here, I can talk to my car.

658
00:32:13,119 --> 00:32:14,559
I can unlock it, I can lock it, I can

659
00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:17,000
see is it moving, where it's the what's the location.

660
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,839
I can set the climate control. So there are things

661
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,920
that are like for non critical communication between the vehicle

662
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,799
and the end user or the cloud, is a totally

663
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,200
valid use case for sure. It's it's only when you

664
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,920
so you know, when you have you know, human lives

665
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,160
that are being transported in the vehicle that you know

666
00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,640
it could be potentially deadly. Is when you say, okay,

667
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,599
maybe le's like let let's not do that over the network,

668
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:42,079
but certainly for things that are you know, with respect

669
00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:43,680
to how you start the car or stop you know,

670
00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:46,920
lock it remotely. Those are all things where you know,

671
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,279
connected car is a super valid use case where and

672
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:51,559
we see that all the time where it's like and

673
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:53,559
that's also the valid like if you're doing a connected

674
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:56,920
car in you know, in in Asia or in Australia,

675
00:32:57,119 --> 00:33:00,119
or in in the India like there, or in the U.

676
00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:02,720
Those are all areas where having a data center that

677
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:05,319
is in market is incredibly important. Like that's that's an

678
00:33:05,319 --> 00:33:07,559
area where you know, you only get goodness from being

679
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:09,960
able to deploy close to where the end users.

680
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: Are makes a lot of sense. I do have to ask, so,

681
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,480
you know, I'm running a company. I don't think that

682
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,279
high performance computing is something that we need, but are

683
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:23,440
there telltale signs that I should be thinking about the

684
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,440
infrastructure that my product my company is utilizing Differently, are

685
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,240
there are there certain things that I could like ask

686
00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:34,160
myself potentially you know, the audience that is listening to

687
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,039
this right now, something for them that would help identify

688
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,799
that just using a regular cloud provider or doing something

689
00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:44,240
on prem like may have a better alternative.

690
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think that the you know, being

691
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:51,920
able to look at the I guess I should also say,

692
00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:54,119
you know, we if you just want access to easy

693
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,880
access to large amounts of compute around the world, Vulture

694
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,880
is a great fit. So you know that we have

695
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,519
all the SDKs like Cluster, API and Terraform, and you

696
00:34:03,559 --> 00:34:05,519
know it's API for saything that you can do in

697
00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:07,039
the portal, you can do via the API. And so

698
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,840
you know, we've again that's like been battle hardened with developers.

699
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,239
That's a huge part of our origin story and the

700
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,199
DNA of this company is being able to serve developers

701
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,280
and DevOps, individuals and teams. That's really that's a core

702
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,320
part of you know, what Vulture is all about. And

703
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,400
so so, yes, there's a piece of performance, but it's

704
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,639
also ease of use. You know, if you if you

705
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,480
work with some of the hyperscalers, it's incredibly complicated just

706
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:30,119
to get something. I mean, I guess they've made something

707
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:31,840
kind of like the onboarding process easy so you can

708
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,320
click the button to get going, but they're incredibly complicated.

709
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,079
And you look at you know, some of the hyperscalers

710
00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:39,440
and you know, you look at like the I am

711
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,280
or like resource hierarchy models of how permissions get structured,

712
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,360
and it's almost seems impossible to set up a new

713
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,599
service or it's like wait, why is this throwing me

714
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:49,639
an air? I'm the root user and I can't even

715
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:51,199
deploy this new thing that I want to try out,

716
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,719
or when I add my second user, I put these

717
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,119
accounts together, How the policies get things like, you know,

718
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,480
all the services of how you do networking and there's

719
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,320
ten different kind of gateways that you you can all

720
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,360
stitch together in very different ways. Like there's there's incredible

721
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,480
complexity with when you are at one of the hyperscalers,

722
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,079
which you know, we are focused on kind of distilling

723
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:12,039
that down into what is it that you actually need?

724
00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:14,800
And so I think there's there is the performance piece

725
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,079
of it, which just says, you know, how can I

726
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:19,079
get better, better performance at a better price. It's not

727
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,440
like apples and oranges, where you know it's it's like,

728
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,079
well it's less expensive, but it's also cheaper and smaller,

729
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:29,360
and this is like better for less and and then

730
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,119
also the easy of use component of that. How do

731
00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:32,800
we keep it simple? How do we distill these things

732
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,559
down to say, like I just want some compute, like

733
00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:36,400
I just want a Kubernators cluster. I just want some

734
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,400
object storage. How can I deliver that to the end

735
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,239
user in a way that is is easy to consume

736
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,800
and and and they can actually enjoy the process of

737
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,039
getting it without having to think about you know, okay,

738
00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:50,519
like I am an individual, or I'm a developer, and

739
00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:52,199
I or I have a small team, like I'm not

740
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,280
a giant enterprise that has multiple business units and multiple

741
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,239
organizational units with different cost centers and different billing accounts,

742
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,639
Like I don't I shouldn't need to think about that

743
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:03,639
every single time I go to deploy like my next instance.

744
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,119
And so that's like like so if if there's you know,

745
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,280
challenges in consuming things at the hyperscalers, or it's like

746
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,440
why is this so complicated and hard? Yeah, like and

747
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,480
then you and then you look at the bill. You

748
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:14,599
get the bill at the end of the month, and

749
00:36:14,639 --> 00:36:17,280
it's like, Wow, I didn't realize that I needed a

750
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,679
PhD in finance and accounting to be able to understand

751
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:24,480
my cloud bill. That's that's an other area where you know,

752
00:36:24,679 --> 00:36:28,360
like I was recently looking at a at a bill

753
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,119
from one of, you know, from a potential prospect that

754
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:35,079
was coming from a hyperscaler and they were getting charged

755
00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:38,920
eight thousand dollars for configuration. There's literally objects in the

756
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,840
database they're getting charged eight thousand dollars for like usage

757
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,360
based some number of hours per configure item inside of

758
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,480
the database. And and I was like, that's a really

759
00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:49,920
interesting I mean, that's a fantastic business model. I would

760
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,159
love it if if you know, like if everybody, I mean,

761
00:36:52,159 --> 00:36:54,239
I guess with your hyperscaler, you've just kind of chosen

762
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,239
that that's an okay, an acceptable thing. But typically, like

763
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,280
the administrative aspects of what you're delivering as a struture

764
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,639
provider or as a SaaS service, it's just it's baked in.

765
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,840
It's like it's the cost of doing business. But if

766
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,400
you if you like looked closely at your bill, it's like, wow,

767
00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:10,159
I didn't. And on a small scale, it's like, okay, well, okay,

768
00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:13,000
that's fine. They charged me thirteen dollars for my configuration objects,

769
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,760
and I have a lot of them. That's fine. But

770
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,840
imagine spending eight thousand dollars on a month on configuration objects.

771
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,320
That was just how my cloud got configured. So like

772
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:24,519
there's areas where if you look at like the many

773
00:37:24,599 --> 00:37:28,000
different ways, like we don't charge for you know, requesting

774
00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:31,159
like S three requests, and like that's a huge cost

775
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:33,920
for on ata us. It's not just you're just getting

776
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,880
charged for the storage, you're getting charged for requesting it.

777
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,280
That's another area where like keeping it simple, where it's

778
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,760
like you're going to get charged, you know, per terabyte

779
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,920
per month for the storage that you use, and we're

780
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,920
not going to nickel and daim you on you know,

781
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:47,000
all these different areas and so so there's a lot

782
00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:49,239
I mean, yes, there is. Again, like there's the performance

783
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,519
piece of it, but there's many other areas where people

784
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,559
you know, are kind of tired of the ways in

785
00:37:55,599 --> 00:37:59,719
which the hyperskillers do business and want they want an alternative.

786
00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:03,119
Speaker 1: No, I'm totally with you. I think that one thing

787
00:38:03,159 --> 00:38:06,719
at leads from an AWS standpoint has been I try

788
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,679
to provide that as granular understanding as possible so that

789
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,559
you can optimize as much as you want based off

790
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:15,519
of what they're providing. But I feel like it's sort

791
00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:17,920
of a leaky abstraction. You can sort of figure out

792
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,360
how they built their service based off of how they're

793
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,679
charging because it's so transparent, and it doesn't necessarily help

794
00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:25,920
because it has a lot of complexity there. When we

795
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,840
built our own service, we offer auth as a service,

796
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,039
and part of that is realistically all of our competitors

797
00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:35,760
charged by like monthly active users, and it's like, well,

798
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,199
what if your users aren't like monthly active, what if

799
00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:40,880
they're used once and whatnot? And so trying to come

800
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,400
up with a single metric that handles every single use

801
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,800
case and is easy to charge and understand has been

802
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,039
really important. Whereas I feel like you will see this

803
00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:51,360
where there's like some primary metric and then there's like

804
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,440
five other metrics that are like but if you do this,

805
00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:55,119
it's like another charge, and if you do this, it's

806
00:38:55,159 --> 00:38:58,480
a third charge. Like that doesn't help anyone exactly.

807
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: No, it's very true. And I think that, yeah, I

808
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,480
think that when you have like when you sit around

809
00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:07,519
a room, when you have the opportunity to sit around

810
00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:09,559
a room and just come up with different ways to

811
00:39:09,639 --> 00:39:12,320
charge people for using the platform and an extracting value

812
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,039
from it, you can come up with very many creative

813
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:17,239
ways to add on, you know, tackle on different ways

814
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,719
to to to charge customers and and that's something that also,

815
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,039
I mean, we've been doing this for you know, Vulture

816
00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:25,480
for for over a decade, and it's kind of remarkable

817
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,440
that we have been able to keep it as simple

818
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,480
as we have. And I think that's a testament to

819
00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:33,039
being able to focus on you know, providing fundamental cloud

820
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,360
infrastructure to a tech enabled uh, you know, mid to

821
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,519
large tech enabled enterprise and SaaS companies, and that's you know,

822
00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:42,679
that that gives us the ability to really focus on,

823
00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:45,599
you know, focus on making sure that it's simple, easy

824
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:49,360
to consume, and without having to introduce all these ancillary

825
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,039
ways that people get charged, and it's it's easy to understand.

826
00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:53,920
Also just makes our lives easier when somebody comes in

827
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,880
and says, hey, you know, can you please digest my

828
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,639
you know, my my bill from a hyperscaler and we

829
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,440
are able to look at that and say, a great,

830
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,440
like all of these just is a big red you know,

831
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,920
like big X mark, Like just that's you know, I'm

832
00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:07,519
just not going to get charged for that. And people

833
00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:08,960
look at that and they say they think, oh wow,

834
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,880
I didn't even realize that that was an option. I

835
00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:13,559
just thought that this was the way that it was

836
00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:17,239
and being able to provide an alternative that is really powerful. Yeah.

837
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: I mean, there's actually a great book out there called

838
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,480
Platform Revolution where it actually talks about if all of

839
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:24,639
your customers need to hire a third party consultant to

840
00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:27,079
do something, then you have an opportunity to recapture that

841
00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:29,559
value within your own platform. And so I think the

842
00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:32,480
other hyperscalers, you know, fail at that where there's huge

843
00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:36,400
successful businesses out there in that regard that are trying

844
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,480
to just explain your cloud bill and it should tell you, no,

845
00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:43,639
we should probably do something a little bit smarter than

846
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,559
with how we're actually providing this. It just makes tracking

847
00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:47,639
so much easier for everyone.

848
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,599
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's much easier to add than it is

849
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:52,400
to remove, I've found. You know, it's it's you know,

850
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,679
being able to add more. You know, but what you

851
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,920
cut and how you cut or how you create things

852
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,960
that make it simpler is often, you know, is often

853
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,719
is difficult because you know that complexity typically gets added

854
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,119
for either well intentioned reasons or because somebody said that

855
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,960
was a requirement and so it got added. And now

856
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,400
once it's there, it's very very hard to unwind.

857
00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: Hopefully, no one no one's adding features because someone said

858
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,119
it's a requirement without actually backing it up with a

859
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,760
good justifications. I just can't imagine that's happening in the

860
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,960
real world. Is that there is this good quote that

861
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,320
I'm totally going to misattribute. That perfection is not when

862
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,679
there is nothing more to add but nothing left to remove.

863
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,239
So I think that definitely applies to having a good

864
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,079
building strategy.

865
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,199
Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, that's very that's very, very true.

866
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:41,679
I love that.

867
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,039
Speaker 1: I will I do want to ask I feel like

868
00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:46,280
we were dancing around this a little bit. Uh, since

869
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,039
you are building data centers, how does sort of research

870
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:54,000
and analysis go into the requirements and understanding of like

871
00:41:54,039 --> 00:41:58,000
where to place the data center, geelocation base, like any

872
00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:01,920
sort of potential issues catastrophic wise to impact the data center.

873
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,679
And you know, the part that's really interesting for me

874
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,760
is what sort of attention to security of like physical

875
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,199
security of the data center.

876
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: Many things that go into that. And you know, we,

877
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,039
I mean we we also should say, you know, we

878
00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:19,320
worked with a lot of fantastic data center partners who

879
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:20,880
who do a lot of that work for us, and

880
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,559
so you know, we we typically don't go out and

881
00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:27,440
procure land and do construction, but we do work with

882
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,239
our data center partners too to go through that assessment,

883
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,960
and there's there's many things that they go into that,

884
00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:36,599
especially as you know, if we if we want to

885
00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:41,400
unwrap the presence of AI and GPU, there are many

886
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,280
things that go into that, especially around the advent of

887
00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:48,760
the AI boom that's been happening, and so access to power,

888
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,840
access to reliable power, access to multiple sources of large

889
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,840
amounts of power is one of the I guess one dimension.

890
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:02,159
The other aspects that go into that is okay, well,

891
00:43:02,199 --> 00:43:04,599
now that if you're delivering a lot of that power

892
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,440
into a very small space, you have to cool it

893
00:43:08,519 --> 00:43:12,239
because there's a ton of heat and so you know,

894
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,320
things like you know like the just like things that

895
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,159
have evolved over the last few years from air cooling

896
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:20,320
to liquid cooling to other things like reird or heat

897
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,559
exchangers where you have it's like a hybrid where it's

898
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:26,679
like liquid cool to the ship you know DLC, but

899
00:43:27,199 --> 00:43:29,599
you know there's other components that still generate heat, and

900
00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:31,239
so you need to have some fans that will go

901
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:32,920
to a real or heat exchanger. So there's a bunch

902
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,079
of different things that go into that. And so the

903
00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:40,599
like where you specifically do the data center is you know,

904
00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:45,599
you know, there's many many things that go into that,

905
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,840
and then once you have it, you have to you know,

906
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,400
you're talking about in some cases situations where what you're

907
00:43:54,559 --> 00:43:57,639
deploying into a single data center is and this is

908
00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:02,320
true across true US both power footprint and across networking.

909
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,480
And one of the things that just is fascinating about

910
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,360
what has happened is that you have right now a

911
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,199
moment where in a single location you could be deploying

912
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,760
more power than you might have intero for a GPU footprint,

913
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,840
then you might have across an entire global footprint of CPU,

914
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:24,280
which is really incredible. And you have that also at

915
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,280
the network level too. You know, if you look at

916
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,960
some of the larger clusters that we've deployed and the

917
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,360
GPU fabric, which is you know, the GPU's effectively get communicated,

918
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,280
they get connected via networking on the back end, so

919
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,679
you have like front side networking which is like my

920
00:44:36,679 --> 00:44:40,440
public IP and the back end networking for GPU fabric networking.

921
00:44:40,639 --> 00:44:42,440
If you look at some of the larger clusters, the

922
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:45,639
amount of aggregate throughput that you have in a single

923
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:51,480
clusters more throughput than the entire Internet in a single cluster,

924
00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:54,440
and there's multiple clusters that are getting deployed, and that

925
00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:56,960
like if you look both for power and for networking,

926
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,320
you're and then you're deploying them on a time scale

927
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,840
where like it's you know, twenty twenty five, Like it

928
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,119
took how many decades of the Internet growth to get

929
00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:07,079
to where we are. And now if you look at

930
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:09,480
what's going to get deployed, know what just got deployed

931
00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:11,280
last year was going to get deployed over the course

932
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,360
of the next one or two years. It's really this

933
00:45:13,519 --> 00:45:17,360
incredible volume of we just it took us this long

934
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,920
to develop the entire Internet with all of the CPU cloud,

935
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,360
and now it's like we're going to be deploying what is,

936
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,960
you know, ten or one hundred or one thousand or

937
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,280
ten thousand x the power networking on a much shorter

938
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,840
time scale. And that has I mean, just as an observer,

939
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,079
it is incredible to see what's being deployed. As somebody

940
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:41,360
who also deploys that it is you know, it's presented

941
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,119
challenges that I've never seen before my entire career. And

942
00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:48,639
so that's been really really fascinating to witness both again

943
00:45:48,679 --> 00:45:50,119
as an observer and a participant.

944
00:45:50,679 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: I mean, that's interesting. I mean, I think we've known

945
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,679
for a long time that waste heat is still like

946
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,519
fifty sixty percent of costs of data centers, possibly higher

947
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:01,320
or lower, but you know, it's it's a huge amount

948
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,679
to have to deal with that. It's not the compute

949
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,920
or human resources or physical resources. But the other thing

950
00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:09,920
that really comes to mind is at this point, I

951
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,320
wonder if you're already getting to the point where you're

952
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:17,400
identifying concrete competition for the power, the actual energy to

953
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,199
power your data centers with the other hyperscalars, or whether

954
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,360
or not it's still seen as a limited resource for

955
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,159
the for the moment, or whether or not this is

956
00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:29,599
an actual question that's come up in a concern that

957
00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:30,840
you're you have to start dealing with.

958
00:46:31,039 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: No, it's always a concern. Yeah, I mean, I would

959
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:37,599
say that the again, access to power, large quantities of

960
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:42,239
power and the relatively small densities is for sure an issue,

961
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:44,360
and we all face it, you know, And I would

962
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,039
say this, there's a planning cycle to that as well.

963
00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:49,800
I mean, everybody understands that it's not an unlimited resource,

964
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,679
but that I think that honestly predates you know, GPU,

965
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,159
Like there's always the fallback to utility power and maybe

966
00:46:56,159 --> 00:46:58,599
there's a special you know, special agreement that you have

967
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:02,159
with you know, utility power. But data center providers you know,

968
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,519
have to have guarantees and so that's always taken the

969
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:08,760
form of you know, contractual obligations, you know, for for

970
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,199
power delivery. And this is no different. Although because of

971
00:47:11,199 --> 00:47:13,480
the scale it it, you know, where the power generation

972
00:47:13,559 --> 00:47:15,400
comes from, and the time scale in which to deploy it,

973
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,360
you know, has introduced different things. But you know, data

974
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,199
centers have never really been just like oh yeah, just

975
00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:22,679
like plug it into the outlet and you're good. Like

976
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,920
it's always been, you know, there's there's been a little

977
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,159
bit more to that and so so so yeah, that

978
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:30,079
that has always been a special consideration, and I guess

979
00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:32,920
more so now just more like the time piece of

980
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,920
ensuring when that power is going to show up so

981
00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:38,159
coordinate things on the back end.

982
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: No, it makes co clete sense. I'm sort of wondering

983
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,760
whether or not you're taking into account you'll, like, say,

984
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,840
where data centers by other hyperscalers out there are putting

985
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,320
their data centers, because you could end up with a

986
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,760
conflict of you know, a scarce resource.

987
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean certainly there's you know, we we

988
00:47:57,159 --> 00:47:59,320
we definitely, you know, we definitely look at that. I mean,

989
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,440
typically the way that that shows up is that there's

990
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,039
going to be a certain amount of power, you know,

991
00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:09,960
ten twenty fifty megawatts of power that gets delivered through

992
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,000
a contractual obligation, and so that would be over some

993
00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:16,679
number of years or decades to be able to do that,

994
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,960
and that's kind of like preserved power capacity, and so

995
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:24,239
that that's just you know, like you you reserve that capacity,

996
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,599
and that like if you're going to say, you know,

997
00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:28,679
if you're gonna let's say there's twenty megawatts that is

998
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:34,400
available in Cleveland or in Cincinnati or in South Dakota somewhere,

999
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,280
that that becomes available, and then whoever takes it takes it.

1000
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,199
And so that is and in some cases people are

1001
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,840
in the market for additional capacity. In some cases they say, well,

1002
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,400
we just took down, you know, thirty megawatts in Pittsburgh

1003
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:49,920
and so we're fine, and so we don't need that

1004
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,360
twenty that just showed up over you know, in the

1005
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,480
in the Midwest. But there's ten other people that were

1006
00:48:54,599 --> 00:48:57,400
chomping at the bit for the power that was in Pittsburgh.

1007
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,119
And so you know, now there's you know, if there

1008
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:00,880
were ten people that were in Pittsburgh, one of them

1009
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:02,880
got satisfied, and now there's nine people that are going

1010
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,880
to that might be interested in the twenty mega wants

1011
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,880
you know interest, just as a simple simple example. So,

1012
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:10,840
and that also fluctuates with the demand of the end customers.

1013
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,559
And so depending on you know, who's who's you know,

1014
00:49:13,639 --> 00:49:16,320
who's buying it on the back end, you know, the

1015
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,199
you know that will you know, influence the band. And

1016
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,000
so in some cases there's opportunities that are you know,

1017
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:25,679
that that are being chased, and so folks might be

1018
00:49:25,679 --> 00:49:27,599
asking about the same you know, for the same end

1019
00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:30,079
customer coming out at different angles. And so it's a

1020
00:49:30,119 --> 00:49:33,880
it's a really it's a super dynamic time, super dynamic market.

1021
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,400
And so we're always you know, assessing what's available based

1022
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,320
on our own needs and and our own you know,

1023
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:41,760
and our end customer needs as well.

1024
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like it's not a struggle yet.

1025
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,639
I mean, obviously there are ins and outs and complexities

1026
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:51,159
and contracts and future prediction for for demand needs. But

1027
00:49:51,679 --> 00:49:55,880
it sounds like at the moment there's still positive optimism

1028
00:49:56,079 --> 00:49:58,199
or you know what's available and you know, sure you

1029
00:49:58,199 --> 00:49:59,559
may not be able to build a data center in

1030
00:49:59,599 --> 00:50:02,440
one local but picking another one is still is still

1031
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,760
an option. Uh. You know, I'm wondering when this when

1032
00:50:06,599 --> 00:50:11,000
I'll say, craze of power usage spikes even more, whether

1033
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:13,440
or not that will actually drive innovation and the science

1034
00:50:13,519 --> 00:50:18,039
is to complete the years old fusion research that it

1035
00:50:18,039 --> 00:50:20,920
looks only like China at the moment is actually sufficiently

1036
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:21,559
invested in.

1037
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've seen every so often I get

1038
00:50:26,039 --> 00:50:28,840
articles that I'll come across my news feed that talk

1039
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:33,639
about breakthroughs in fusion and and I've seen several of

1040
00:50:33,679 --> 00:50:36,880
them over the last even twelve months or so, and

1041
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,800
so I think that it's it's going to be. I mean,

1042
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,000
I think there's maybe one other alternative that's that has

1043
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:48,800
more of a practical implication, but SMRs, which is small

1044
00:50:49,039 --> 00:50:52,440
I think it's small modular reactors there. There it's it's

1045
00:50:52,519 --> 00:50:55,239
nuclear power, but there it's on a much smaller scale.

1046
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,000
And so and I think even I think equin X

1047
00:50:59,159 --> 00:51:03,760
announced that they were investing some number of millions of

1048
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,800
dollars into s m rs as as an alternative. And

1049
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,480
you know, the US has not been a leader in

1050
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,719
renewable nuclear power, whereas the EU has made a lot

1051
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,800
of advancements over the last couple of decades. You know,

1052
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,000
if you look at the cycle of you know, nuclear

1053
00:51:22,039 --> 00:51:24,880
waste and how you you know, kind of process that

1054
00:51:25,079 --> 00:51:30,639
and can you know, ensure there's a healthier you know,

1055
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:33,000
like our strategy to to nuclear waste is to bury

1056
00:51:33,039 --> 00:51:36,800
it in the ground, and which is it's that that's

1057
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:41,400
a choice, but there's other choices that are that have emerged.

1058
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,400
And so I think that innovations in the nuclear space

1059
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,199
is something that's really fascinating because you're able to have

1060
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,920
access to you know, without a lot of the footprint,

1061
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,880
the carbon footprint and fossil fuels and you know, unrenewable

1062
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,199
energy sources. It's it's really really compelling, but you do

1063
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,320
have to completely think about the complete picture for it

1064
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,400
to be a sustainable method.

1065
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: I do want to get an energy expert on the show.

1066
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:05,159
Speaker 2: Now.

1067
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,079
Speaker 1: I will say that bearing into the ground is still

1068
00:52:07,079 --> 00:52:11,480
better than putting it in some other places. And and

1069
00:52:11,559 --> 00:52:13,599
I think the the idea of I think is switching

1070
00:52:13,639 --> 00:52:18,920
to thorium over the uranium yellow Cake from two fifty eight.

1071
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,039
I think there are innovations. I don't know if I

1072
00:52:22,039 --> 00:52:25,400
have your optimism about what Europe is doing. There is progress,

1073
00:52:25,639 --> 00:52:27,519
not as much as I would I would really like.

1074
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's a it's really interesting and I

1075
00:52:30,519 --> 00:52:32,559
am not an expert on it, because I think there

1076
00:52:32,679 --> 00:52:37,440
was it. I think, if I'm remembering correctly, Germany was,

1077
00:52:37,679 --> 00:52:40,800
you know, like on the brink of this kind of

1078
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,119
like renewable cycle and I'm there's there's a name for

1079
00:52:44,159 --> 00:52:46,079
it that I'm forgetting. But then they announced that they

1080
00:52:46,079 --> 00:52:47,480
were going to shut it down or something, and I

1081
00:52:47,519 --> 00:52:49,119
just remember thinking about it. It was like but that thing,

1082
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,440
like you were on like the brink of like getting

1083
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,039
to the point where we all wanted it to get to,

1084
00:52:53,119 --> 00:52:57,119
which was you know, more of a I think from

1085
00:52:57,159 --> 00:52:59,960
a technical perspective, they were. They had made more advancement,

1086
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,519
even though I think there were some policy that prevented

1087
00:53:02,519 --> 00:53:04,840
it from chem to fruition, whereas I and I don't

1088
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,719
know that those those translated over here. But maybe maybe

1089
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,360
you have some more then than I do.

1090
00:53:11,039 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: Well, I'll share what I know. So facts. Germany definitely

1091
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,320
did shut down all their nuclear reactors the interesting thing

1092
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,480
is they had been like promised to be decommissioned for

1093
00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:24,360
over a decade, and other countries faced with the same

1094
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,400
similar challenges crises that we're facing, said you know what,

1095
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,239
let's stop our decommission process. Part of the challenge in

1096
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:37,280
Germany was a huge lobby from the coal miners associations

1097
00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:39,800
because there's a lot of jobs associated with that, and

1098
00:53:40,519 --> 00:53:43,719
that still has a huge impact in many countries switching

1099
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,400
over to realistic renewables. Actually in the last two decades

1100
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,199
one of the hugest impact to switching to fission reactors.

1101
00:53:52,519 --> 00:53:57,039
So what we're calling nuclear is other quote unquote green

1102
00:53:57,079 --> 00:54:01,440
renewable energy sources. Like the lobby against vision and nuclear

1103
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,239
by solar and wind is like I would stretch ridiculously.

1104
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,880
It's just so sad. This is there's probably not the

1105
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:11,960
podcast to go into that. It's all gonna stop there,

1106
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:17,039
and I'll say, uh, say, if there's one last thing

1107
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:20,400
about Vulture you wanted to share, we can we can

1108
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:21,199
close it out with that.

1109
00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 2: Well, so yeah, look, I would say maybe closing it

1110
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,920
out getting back to cloud infrastructure and DevOps. You know,

1111
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,000
I think one of the things that we we say

1112
00:54:31,079 --> 00:54:34,039
is that you know, Vulture is the platform for platform

1113
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:37,280
engineering teams. So you know, if DevOps and platform engineering

1114
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,920
is is your jam, where you find that that's an

1115
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,480
area where you're doing a lot of it. You know,

1116
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,239
I think that Vulture has a really compelling platform that is,

1117
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:46,800
you know, it is something that you'll enjoy working with.

1118
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:51,519
It has the again compelling price, compelling performance, and it

1119
00:54:51,599 --> 00:54:54,400
needs of use attached to that with a global footprint

1120
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,639
and so that checks a lot of the big boxes

1121
00:54:56,679 --> 00:54:59,440
for for DevOps individuals and platform engineering teams. And so

1122
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:02,360
if that something that that resonates, you know, definitely check

1123
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,679
us out and you know, let us know what you think.

1124
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: I love the sales pitch. I will I will ask

1125
00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:09,800
because I'm sure someone will be wondering, like, what's the

1126
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:12,920
interface that you're providing? Is it you know, some custom APIs?

1127
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,840
Are you providing like some sort of Kubernetes adjacent replacement

1128
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,840
for the control planes, et cetera. What does that look like?

1129
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, it is, you know, it's it's a PI first.

1130
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:27,400
So you know, if you use terraform or or cluster API,

1131
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,920
you know you'll feel right at home. We have providers

1132
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,559
for cross plane, we have providers for cross plane cluster,

1133
00:55:33,639 --> 00:55:38,079
API terraform and so yeah. So like full API deployment,

1134
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,199
there is you know, future rich portal as well, and so,

1135
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:43,840
but that you know typically is going to be the

1136
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:45,400
entry point is going to be one of those like

1137
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,840
you know, we have a go Go Vulture Goaling library,

1138
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:52,239
so one of those entry points for API is probably

1139
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,960
going to be that. We do also have VK which

1140
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,719
is the Vulture Kubernetes engine, so this is vanilla Kubernetes

1141
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,840
and is something that you know, it is kind of directly,

1142
00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:04,840
you know, instead of runn Kubernetes yourself, which is totally fine.

1143
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,679
You can run Kubernetes on VMS or bare model yourselves

1144
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:11,440
if that's your jam. But if that's not your jam,

1145
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,400
you can consume kubernetovkay from us and we'll run it

1146
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,400
for you.

1147
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: No, that's that's good, not my jam. And I don't

1148
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,360
know how many people would you know, pick it personally you.

1149
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:26,079
I think I'm gonna keep my opinions across playing to

1150
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:27,079
myself for this episode.

1151
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,679
Speaker 2: Uh okay, So I think I will say I was

1152
00:56:31,679 --> 00:56:33,039
going for I was going for a walk the other

1153
00:56:33,079 --> 00:56:36,920
day and there's a fire hydrant and attached to the

1154
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,559
fire hydrant was a series of you know, piping in

1155
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:42,960
tubes connecting down to a little water faucet on the end,

1156
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:44,800
and it just kind of reminded me of Kubernetes a

1157
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,159
little bit, where Kubernetes is the fire hydrant and then

1158
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,760
to deploy your applications just like a little water faucet.

1159
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,800
It's like it can be really overkill sometimes to be like,

1160
00:56:53,119 --> 00:56:55,360
wait a minute, why why am I needing to do

1161
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,679
this and just to get this little bit of application going,

1162
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:04,000
But it is you know, yeah, that's yeah. If deploying

1163
00:57:04,039 --> 00:57:08,960
something that's a little bit easier is attractive, then than

1164
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:10,320
the we can do that for you.

1165
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,039
Speaker 1: We actually had a Kumminatory consultant expert consultant come on

1166
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:17,400
a few episodes ago, and I highly recommend that episode

1167
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,480
for anyone that's interested in the different ways of deploying

1168
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,480
to cloud providers with your technology stack. Okay, so with that,

1169
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,400
let's move over to pay. So my pick for today

1170
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:32,800
is I don't know how I'm gonna be lame, but

1171
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,840
I like this. There's a show on YouTube and Nebula

1172
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,239
called jet Lag the Game, and it's they have a

1173
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:43,199
couple of different game versions. They play tag within like

1174
00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:46,320
a small area like multiple countries involved, or capture the

1175
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:53,480
flag in in Japan or in a larger area. Basically, trains, planes,

1176
00:57:53,559 --> 00:57:56,440
buses are involved in game playing, and they even have

1177
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,199
a card game version where you can play with your

1178
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:03,719
friends like in an actual, live, physical location. So there's

1179
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,639
lots of there's like lots of episodes that they do

1180
00:58:05,679 --> 00:58:08,960
about three or four seasons a year, and it's absolutely fantastic.

1181
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:14,360
I think it's like if you hated the reality show

1182
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,960
Race around the World or Amazing Race, this is so

1183
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:23,039
much better. This is like actual high quality, like game

1184
00:58:23,519 --> 00:58:26,719
relevant stuff. There's no no real tricks involved.

1185
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,679
Speaker 2: That's awesome. I love that. Well. I would have to

1186
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,719
my pick of today, I would have to say there's

1187
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,639
a TV show called Money Heist and I'm not sure

1188
00:58:36,679 --> 00:58:41,239
if you're familiar with this, but it's it's it's on Netflix,

1189
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,360
and it's about It's a show about it's an incredible

1190
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:49,360
like psychological it's every single there's the first season, it's

1191
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,639
every single episode. Believe you wanting to watch more. It's

1192
00:58:52,679 --> 00:58:55,239
it's in Spanish, so don't get the dubbed version. Do

1193
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,639
Spanish to subtitles, but it is phenomenal and I don't

1194
00:58:58,639 --> 00:59:01,320
want to give too much away, but it's called Money Heist,

1195
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,480
and if you watched the first you can get through

1196
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,199
the first episode, you'll you'll it's an incredibly smart, well

1197
00:59:07,239 --> 00:59:13,760
done about a heist in of the Central Bank of Spain,

1198
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,960
and so it is fascinating. I absolutely love it and

1199
00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:20,559
if you haven't seen it, check it out. Money Heist.

1200
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: I feel like I watched something that was like a

1201
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,199
single episode of and I don't know if it was this, you.

1202
00:59:25,159 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 2: Know, it might have been. There's many things that happened

1203
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:31,800
in that in that season, and it is really it's

1204
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,920
just one of the smartest TV shows that I've watched

1205
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,440
in a while, and it's it's entertaining, but it's also

1206
00:59:39,159 --> 00:59:42,599
really really well done. So yeah, it's and not a

1207
00:59:42,639 --> 00:59:45,719
lot of people have have have have heard of it.

1208
00:59:45,719 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: It.

1209
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: Somebody recommended it and watched the whole thing and was

1210
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,039
aid it was one of those shows where I think

1211
00:59:52,039 --> 00:59:54,239
we all have them right where you just can't, Like

1212
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,280
you get to the end of the episode, you're like,

1213
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,199
I like, you know, it's I really have to you know,

1214
00:59:58,199 --> 01:00:00,400
I've got an early early morning meetings and the I

1215
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,320
have to stop watching, But I just really what happens next.

1216
01:00:04,079 --> 01:00:06,760
It's really really smart about you know how they do that,

1217
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,760
and and yeah, I really highly recommend it.

1218
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: It's a sleep sacrifice worthy. It sounds like a great pick.

1219
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,400
Thank you, Nathan. So I just want to say thanks

1220
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,440
again for coming on the senior vice president of Vulture

1221
01:00:21,639 --> 01:00:24,280
here with us, and it was a great episode, and

1222
01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:28,079
thank you all the listeners and viewers for staying around.

1223
01:00:28,159 --> 01:00:32,239
And we'll catch everyone next week.